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Traveller-digest       Monday, March 27 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2200<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re Classification of Systems<BR>
Re: Swycaffer books revisited<BR>
Re: Trav Filk<BR>
Re: Contract Law 101<BR>
Counters list<BR>
Re: Developing A 3D Universe Campaign (long)<BR>
Re: Temperature Calculations<BR>
Re: Drop Tanks<BR>
Re: Trav Filk<BR>
Re: GMSound Software<BR>
Re: Contract Law 101<BR>
look up robot damage for michael?<BR>
Re: Trav Filk<BR>
TML Landgrab<BR>
Re: Maps Page Updated<BR>
Re: Contract Law 101<BR>
Re: Trav Filk<BR>
Re: Counters list<BR>
Re: Counters list<BR>
re: Classification of RPG's<BR>
RE: Drop Tanks<BR>
Re: Drop Tanks  <BR>
Re: Drop Tanks<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 16:50:45 -0900<BR>
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re Classification of Systems<BR>
<BR>
>> I included Car Wars as a roleplaying game.[snip]<BR>
><BR>
>    Hmm... Okay, I've tried real role-playing with CW and it just didn't<BR>
>seem to<BR>
>have enough of a support system behind it to really RP with. Maybe the<BR>
>GURPs or Autoduel Champions rules added enough to allow for that though.<BR>
<BR>
ADC added enough hooks that you really can do serrious (albeit<BR>
non-attribute) RP  with few problems. In short, it adds several new skills<BR>
to CW, plus the ones added in the Compendia also help, and disads are<BR>
simply Hero System disads as is.<BR>
<BR>
>    Hey, is there a Hero system version of Traveller- or is it just covered<BR>
>under<BR>
>GURPs?<BR>
<BR>
Someone did a Hero-Trav conversion on their W-Site.<BR>
<BR>
[snip]<BR>
><BR>
>    Where do you live at there?  I was there from 90-97 and dealt with<BR>
>Bosco's regularly.  I always thought that their supply of new stuff always<BR>
>sucked, although they had a pretty awesome supply of OOP materials.<BR>
>    It may just be the supplements that I was having a problem with though,<BR>
>considering that I had all of the games that I intended to play at the time.<BR>
<BR>
Bosco's, since the early 80's has had a problem keeping new supplements for<BR>
the major lines in stock. However, they've always had a good selection of<BR>
new games, until about the last 4 months. Funny, that corresponds with<BR>
Peter Newman quitting.<BR>
<BR>
As for where I lived, well, 90-93 I lived in mountain view. 93-94 in<BR>
Fairview (KCA), 95 Peter's Creek. 96, Back to fairview (KCA, then a few<BR>
blocks from there). Former President UAA Gaming Society. Responsible party<BR>
for Minicon IV and Unicon IV. This was about 1992. UAAGS got banned form<BR>
campus (for reasons not our fault, namely, the Head of Campus Security<BR>
hates gamers with a passion...)<BR>
<BR>
>> TNE and CE are very different in not only mechanics, but undelying<BR>
>> assumptions of how people learn, how skills relate to attributes, how the<BR>
>> universe works...<BR>
><BR>
>CE? Did you meant CT or something else?<BR>
<BR>
CT. I don't run a spell checker since all the spell-checker-enabled email<BR>
clients for the mac I dislike, except eudora pro, which I won't pay for.<BR>
So, I wind up with the occasional glitch<BR>
<BR>
William F. Hostman  |  "Smith & Wesson: THe original Point and Click<BR>
interface!"<BR>
Aramis 0602 C55A364-C S kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge-<BR>
533<BR>
aramis@gci.net http://home.gci.net/~aramis Vilani: uilamaanamti sirohbrankilin<BR>
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn- t4-- tt+ to- tg-- ru+ ge 3i+ c+ jt-() au+ st- ls<BR>
pi+() ta+ he+(-) kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge- pi+<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 20:10:09 -0600<BR>
From: Jimmy Simpson <nimrod@santech.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Swycaffer books revisited<BR>
<BR>
At 09:52 PM 3/26/00 -0500, you wrote:<BR>
>Did any of the Swycaffer books focus on the Vargr, or Aslan, or K'Kree?<BR>
><BR>
>Thanks,<BR>
>Jed<BR>
<BR>
No, in his Concordat Universe there were only 7 (I believe) worlds that had <BR>
naturally evolved life, and none besides humans were sentient.  The <BR>
previous Empire was a dictatorship that was brought down by a slave <BR>
rebellion.  When the emperor knew he was defeated he destroyed all the <BR>
libraries throughout the empire through a faster than light communications <BR>
net.  The current time period is when civilization has rebuilt itself and <BR>
has lost most of their knowledge of the empire and its technologies <BR>
(including FTL communications).<BR>
<BR>
I believe the only 'alien' in the series was a genetically created slave.<BR>
<BR>
There were basically 2 series, the first 4 book series revolved around the <BR>
Navy and higher level stories and the fourth of the series was called 'the <BR>
Praesidium of Archive' (Archive being the capital of the Concordat), and <BR>
told stories about the leaders of the Concordat.<BR>
<BR>
The second 3 book series primarily revolved around a subsidized merchant <BR>
ship that has among its crew the 'alien', that I believe they pick up in <BR>
the first book.<BR>
<BR>
It has been years since I have read these books, but I think I will try to <BR>
dig them back out again.  Dragon Magazine #59 had an article called <BR>
'Exonidas Spaceport' that is part of the setting for one of his first 2 <BR>
books.<BR>
<BR>
These were very good books, but not set in anything like the Traveller <BR>
universe.  He just used the basic technology of Traveller in his <BR>
stories.  I wish he would write more in this series.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Jimmy Simpson<BR>
	nimrodd@fastlane.net<BR>
"Cannot say.<BR>
  Saying, I would know.<BR>
  Do not know.<BR>
  So cannot say."<BR>
		-Zathras (Babylon 5)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 20:33:38 -0600<BR>
From: "Shadowcat" <meow@advancenet.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Trav Filk<BR>
<BR>
Here ya go, heres a warped filk title line to run with<BR>
<BR>
"Dulinor went to down to Capitol, he was looking for a throne to <BR>
steal"<BR>
<BR>
The tune should be obvious on this one<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 20:49:02 -0600<BR>
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Contract Law 101<BR>
<BR>
Daniel Phelps wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> How would tasks/favors/boons done for "free" translate it to "contracts" in<BR>
> certain cultures in traveller.  For instance, could not the saving of a life<BR>
> by a PC in make the "good Samaritan" responsible for that life in certain<BR>
> cultural settings.<BR>
<BR>
Have you been peeking at the material I submitted for BITS next 101 Plots?<BR>
<BR>
Just FYI, some states in the US impose a 'Duty to Rescue' people in<BR>
trouble.  For the average joe, that means 'Call 911'.  For trained<BR>
professsionals, that can mean render medical assistance.  The majority<BR>
rule, based on the traditional common law view,  places no such duty<BR>
on people.<BR>
<BR>
Note: I'm talking about non-cops, who are often never off-duty by<BR>
the policies of some departments.  But people like ambulance drivers,<BR>
nurses, doctors, etc.<BR>
<BR>
bloo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 21:03:41 -0600<BR>
From: Jimmy Simpson <nimrod@santech.com><BR>
Subject: Counters list<BR>
<BR>
Does some one have a list of what counters are in Azhanti High Lightning <BR>
and Fifth Frontier War.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Jimmy Simpson<BR>
	nimrodd@fastlane.net<BR>
"Cannot say.<BR>
  Saying, I would know.<BR>
  Do not know.<BR>
  So cannot say."<BR>
		-Zathras (Babylon 5)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 22:10:24 EST<BR>
From: JFZeigler@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Developing A 3D Universe Campaign (long)<BR>
<BR>
If you want any advice...<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 3/27/00 12:40:40 PM Eastern Standard Time, <BR>
Jason.Kemp@tdh.state.tx.us writes:<BR>
<BR>
> Stage I: Acquire a list of the near-star catalogue in a database <BR>
>  format, preferably with systems already marked as to double and <BR>
>  triple star systems. If I recall, someone on the TML has already done <BR>
>  work similar to this.<BR>
<BR>
Lots of sources for this.<BR>
<BR>
>  Stage 2: Create a program that will generate basic star system <BR>
>  information using First In rules, up to and including population <BR>
>  scores. Beyond that, wait on further development of the world stats. <BR>
>  Thus, the basics of the system notes for the campaign are set.<BR>
<BR>
I would be flexible in how strictly you apply the First In rules.  In<BR>
particular, be sure you check out the errata, as there are several<BR>
which make it slightly easier to get a habitable world.<BR>
<BR>
I might apply modifiers to make planets average bit larger -- the<BR>
planet size rule in First In was written to match Traveller tradition,<BR>
but in our own solar system the terrestrials tend to be a bit larger<BR>
than you would expect given the rule.  Bigger planets, on average,<BR>
will give you denser atmospheres, more water, and more likelihood<BR>
of Earthlike conditions.<BR>
<BR>
You might also tinker with the rotation-period rule so as to get<BR>
fewer tide-locked worlds.<BR>
<BR>
All in all, if your computer runs don't give you as many habitable<BR>
worlds as you want, feel free to tweak so as to get more.  Strict<BR>
realism indicates that Earthike worlds *are* rare in the Galaxy,<BR>
but if you want a decent space-adventure setting in the solar<BR>
neighborhood you might want to bend that a little.  Unless you<BR>
don't mind a setting with relatively rare Earthlike worlds, of course.<BR>
<BR>
>  The end result of Stage 2 will include an effective Native Ecosphere <BR>
>  statistic, which can be used to determine the location of the <BR>
>  homeworld for the various alien races that will be present within the <BR>
>  campaign milieu.<BR>
>  <BR>
>  If someone wanted to do something like this, and wanted to use <BR>
>  another method of determining the presence of native races, there are <BR>
>  several methods available: the Alternative Generation Method from <BR>
>  Galactic 2.4, the use of the World Census presence of minor races <BR>
>  roll (not found in WBH,) etc.<BR>
>  <BR>
>  If Terra/Sol does not reflect itself as the homeworld for a race,<BR>
>  make those corrections in the database. <BR>
>  <BR>
>  Stage 3: Generate complete stats for the homeworlds, continuing with <BR>
>  First In rules. Translate the stats into a CT/MT compatible UWP, <BR>
>  including TTL instead of GTL, as it goes through the generation <BR>
>  process. (I find UWPs easier to use than the GT paragraph style, <BR>
>  hence my translation here.)<BR>
>  <BR>
>  Adjust the stats of Terra/Sol to properly reflect the desired gaming <BR>
>  milieu.<BR>
>  <BR>
>  Using the fully developed world stats, identify the homeworlds of <BR>
>  major races by searching the results set for worlds with sufficient <BR>
>  TL to establish FTL travel to the stars.<BR>
<BR>
Sounds like you *really* want to avoid being strictly realistic here.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>  Stage 4: Create a program that identifies the Core Worlds of each <BR>
>  stellar polity of TTL 10+, using two times maximum jump range as the <BR>
>  determining factor. (The assumption is that TTL 9 worlds have not had <BR>
>  jump drive for a period of time sufficient to have Core Worlds beyond <BR>
>  its own native homeworld. This is my assumption, of course, and may <BR>
>  be iinvalid for other TUs, but not for the one I would design using <BR>
>  this method.)<BR>
>  <BR>
>  Then, the program identifies the Frontier Worlds for each polity, <BR>
>  checking in one Jump-1 increment from TTL 9-10 worlds, one <BR>
>  Jump-2 increment from TTL 11-14 worlds, and one Jump-3 increment from <BR>
>  TTL 15+ worlds.<BR>
>  <BR>
>  For each world within range, check for presence of other aliens<BR>
>  already in the system, and identify the star system in a specially<BR>
>  created report or database of potential contact areas between stellar<BR>
>  polities. Later, the Referee can go back and decide where the contact<BR>
>  is benign or malevalent, depending on the nature of the races<BR>
>  involved.<BR>
>  <BR>
>  Then, if the world is not in conflict and no native non-spacefaring <BR>
>  race is present, the program subtracts two from the population <BR>
>  generated for each jump increment from the Core Worlds, as per the <BR>
>  sidebar in First In. If the world is still inhabited, change the <BR>
>  allegiance code to the stallar polity in question. If the world is <BR>
>  not inhabited, change the allegiance code to either <BR>
>  Surveyed/Partially Surveyed (for Population scores 0 to -2) or <BR>
>  Non-aligned/Unexplored (for Population scores of -3 or less,) again <BR>
>  as per the aforementioned side bar in First In.<BR>
>  <BR>
>  Continue through four increments of jump steps from each set of Core <BR>
>  Worlds, then run through the database and change all untouched world <BR>
>  populations, as well as population scores below zero, without native <BR>
>  races present to zero. The allegiance codes for all untouched worlds <BR>
>  without a native population is set to Unexplored.<BR>
>  <BR>
>  By the end of this step, all world allegiance codes have been set, <BR>
>  the population has been modified based on how far they are from the <BR>
>  central state and/or the presence of a native race, and conflict <BR>
>  areas between polities have been identified.<BR>
<BR>
Sounds like an interesting procedure.  Despite writing those rules in<BR>
First In, I have no idea how satisfactory the result will be, but it's<BR>
worth trying.  (It *is* a little like the procedure in the old _Universe_<BR>
RPG.)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>  Okay, this is the pipe dream for developing a complete 3D universe <BR>
>  based on near-star data. Suspension of disbelief will be necessary, <BR>
>  obviously, since the stars haven't moved since the date of the <BR>
>  catalog. That kind of thing. But I thought I'd share my thoughts with <BR>
>  everyone, to see what kind of input I might receive.<BR>
<BR>
Proper motion will be a lesser suspension-of-disbelief problem,<BR>
especially if you aren't recording star positions to too many<BR>
significant figures.<BR>
<BR>
- ----------<BR>
Jon F. Zeigler: Mathematician, computer geek, amateur historian, freelance<BR>
writer, occasional scribbler of bad poetry<BR>
"For any statement, no matter how innocuous, there exists a nonempty<BR>
set of people who will take offense at it."<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 22:28:00 EST<BR>
From: JFZeigler@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Temperature Calculations<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 3/26/00 9:53:06 PM Eastern Standard Time, <BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net writes:<BR>
<BR>
> Well, you're right temperature calculations have always been a <BR>
bugbear...for <BR>
> me anyway. <BR>
>  <BR>
>  Hum, here's B6's formula...<BR>
>  <BR>
>  T = K*G*(1-A)*(L^0.25)/(D^0.5)<BR>
>  <BR>
>  where<BR>
>      K = 374.025, a constant determined from Terra based an avg 288k <BR>
> temperature<BR>
>      G = Greenhouse (1.10 for standard atmospheres)<BR>
>      A = Albedo (0.3 for Terra)<BR>
>      L = Luminosity in solar units (1 for Sol)<BR>
>      D = Distance from  star in AU (1 for Sol)<BR>
>  <BR>
>  It looks like there's more different than a fourth root difference n <BR>
Albedo. <BR>
> Why the difference in the 278 and 374?  And is it 278 or 288?<BR>
<BR>
It's 278.  If Earth was a blackbody, that would be its average surface<BR>
termperature.  Our greenhouse effect slightly overbalances our<BR>
planetary albedo, so Earth's climate is a bit warmer than that.<BR>
<BR>
I think the author of Scouts just back-calculated K as a fudge factor<BR>
to get the termperature for Terra to work out right.  Of course, since<BR>
he didn't have G right and the formula itself was wrong in the albedo<BR>
item, that guaranteed that it wouldn't work for any other planet :-).<BR>
<BR>
- ----------<BR>
Jon F. Zeigler: Mathematician, computer geek, amateur historian, freelance<BR>
writer, occasional scribbler of bad poetry<BR>
"For any statement, no matter how innocuous, there exists a nonempty<BR>
set of people who will take offense at it."<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 22:51:52 EST<BR>
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Drop Tanks<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 3/27/00 10:26:00 PM !!!First Boot!!!, summers@alum.mit.edu <BR>
writes:<BR>
<BR>
<< Tanks that you take with you (and add to your displacement for<BR>
 that jump) aren't much of a problem.  It has been suggested that<BR>
 these are call "demountable" tanks.... >><BR>
<BR>
Correct, as per TCS and HG2...<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 23:04:35 EST<BR>
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Trav Filk<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 3/28/00 2:34:41 AM !!!First Boot!!!, meow@advancenet.net <BR>
writes:<BR>
<BR>
<< Here ya go, heres a warped filk title line to run with<BR>
 <BR>
 "Dulinor went to down to Capitol, he was looking for a throne to <BR>
 steal"<BR>
 <BR>
 The tune should be obvious on this one >><BR>
<BR>
I like; I like. Try this one: "Traveller Man" (stolen from "Piano Man" by <BR>
Billy Joel)<BR>
<BR>
"It's 2100 on a sixday, and the regular crowd is here..."<BR>
<BR>
or "he's talking to Davie, whose still the Navy, and probably will be for <BR>
life"<BR>
<BR>
I really would like to compleat this, but I have NO talent for writing (or <BR>
even singing) a filk...:-(<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 19:03:56 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: GMSound Software<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Brothers and Sisters of the TML,<BR>
><BR>
> In my never-ending quest for quality GM-assistant software, I decided it<BR>
> would be nice to have a program to play an assortment of wave files<BR>
> quickly and easily.  After searching in vain for such a program,<BR>
<BR>
You should have asked here. I have two such programs, both run in *DOS*.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 19:06:06 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Contract Law 101<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> How would tasks/favors/boons done for "free" translate it to "contracts" in<BR>
> certain cultures in traveller. <BR>
<BR>
A culture that had gone overboard on Ayn Rand's philosophy (or certain<BR>
types of "libertarian" philosophy) might well provide *anything* for<BR>
free. Ask someone what time it is and get the response "That'll cost<BR>
you a credit..."<BR>
<BR>
And thus, if the *players* "give away things" (info, assistance,<BR>
whatever) they may be regarded *very* suspiciously.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 14:10:23 +1000<BR>
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au<BR>
Subject: look up robot damage for michael?<BR>
<BR>
Dear Folks -<BR>
<BR>
Michael asked:<BR>
>Does anyone have any hard and fast rules for translating BOOK 8 Robots into<BR>
>MT Vehicle rules?<BR>
<BR>
The Bk8 and MT equipment is essentially identical*, esp. considering they were<BR>
designed by the same mob - DGP. MT only differs in that it uses the MT<BR>
"life-force" damage system (esentially a way of converting hit points to hit<BR>
dice, for those on the "rule-set" thread! ;-)<BR>
<BR>
Try using the MT Ref's rules, but use liters. Just don't multiply by 10. This<BR>
seems to give reasonable figures.<BR>
<BR>
Take K-9, forex:<BR>
     Chassis inop DP: Size / 15 = 170 / 15 = 11.33, round up to 12 DP<BR>
     Chassis dest DP: Size / 6  = 170 / 6  = 28.33, round up to 29 DP<BR>
<BR>
Gumby!** I've just realised I should have altered K-9's inop by the ECP<BR>
multiplier, and should probably take into account the size of his "head"!! This<BR>
makes the values thus:<BR>
     Chassis inop DP: (Size/15)*1.5 = ((170+10)/15)*1.5) = 18 DP<BR>
     Chassis dest DP: (Size / 6)    = 180 / 6            = 30 DP<BR>
<BR>
Since his armour is 18, his chassis can withstand [FROM MEMORY] two<BR>
effective-range hits from an FGMP-15 before becoming inoperative (not counting<BR>
critically successful hits). I'll buy that for a dollar.<BR>
<BR>
Hmm, I feel a webpage update coming on...<BR>
<BR>
>Also does anyone understand Robot combat from book 8? I can't work out how<BR>
>much damage they can handle.<BR>
<BR>
Er, not sure of the problem here... if using Bk 8, you calc the chassis hit<BR>
points according to the rule on the second page of the chapter on Robots in<BR>
Traveller. Then use the Location tables to determine what was hit.<BR>
<BR>
Am I missing something?<BR>
<BR>
I'll have to have another look at this later this week.<BR>
<BR>
*A few differences exist in weight/volume matters - se my errata, currently<BR>
hosted somewhere on Downport.<BR>
**The 70's version of "Doh!".<BR>
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)<BR>
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au<BR>
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"<BR>
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those<BR>
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the<BR>
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.<BR>
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 20:14:20<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Trav Filk<BR>
<BR>
At 08:33 PM 3/27/2000 -0600, you wrote:<BR>
>Here ya go, heres a warped filk title line to run with<BR>
><BR>
>"Dulinor went to down to Capitol, he was looking for a throne to <BR>
>steal"<BR>
><BR>
>The tune should be obvious on this one<BR>
<BR>
This one should be fun.. I'll wait til the wife is awake to work on it.<BR>
<BR>
Hey, it's an excuse to trun my charlie daniels tapes over and over...<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 23:20:22 -0500<BR>
From: "Smith, Walter" <SmithW@hartwick.edu><BR>
Subject: TML Landgrab<BR>
<BR>
Whew.<BR>
<BR>
Looks like Behind the Claw did more information on each world than<BR>
I thought. There's no way I can take part in this without buying the<BR>
volume, I'll be working with a tenth the information everyone expects<BR>
me to have. This project was interesting, but not twenty odd bucks<BR>
interesting - especially with me saving up to get the rest of Mr.<BR>
Gautney's JTAS High Guard articles.<BR>
<BR>
Not that I won't be reading with deep interest, mind you.<BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 14:20:54 +1000<BR>
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au<BR>
Subject: Re: Maps Page Updated<BR>
<BR>
Dear Folks -<BR>
<BR>
Has anyone else made this connection? While I've been looking at the trade link<BR>
map (my current background), musing over the shadowy-red systems and the<BR>
fibre-optic-like trade routes, I remember seeing something similar a while ago -<BR>
only it was a 3D image of a human nervous system!!<BR>
<BR>
Food for thought...<BR>
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)<BR>
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au<BR>
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"<BR>
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those<BR>
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the<BR>
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.<BR>
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 23:21:45 EST<BR>
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Contract Law 101<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 3/28/00 2:49:26 AM !!!First Boot!!!, <BR>
stevedaniels@portcaddo.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<< I'm talking about non-cops, who are often never off-duty by<BR>
 the policies of some departments.  >><BR>
<BR>
Yeah; when I was a NYCPD officer, I was REQUIRED to be armed at all times in <BR>
NYC. It was a real pain in the a** at times (the beach anybody?). Of course <BR>
it was fun when I set off the metal detectors at LaGuardia of JFK, when I was <BR>
picking up relatives. It REALLY annoyed Security...:-). They would whine <BR>
about it and threaten to call the Port Authority Police, who would tell them <BR>
to stop bothering them...<BR>
<BR>
Ob Trav: Annoy the party with petty civil service nonsense...<BR>
<BR>
Ob Trav: What do LEO's (both Imperial and local) do with their sidearms when <BR>
they cross the extratrality line?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 23:23:53 -0500<BR>
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Trav Filk<BR>
<BR>
From: <Sethkimmel@aol.com><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> "It's 2100 on a sixday, and the regular crowd is here..."<BR>
><BR>
> or "he's talking to Davie, whose still the Navy, and probably will be<BR>
> for  life"<BR>
><BR>
> I really would like to compleat this, but I have NO talent for writing (or<BR>
> even singing) a filk...:-(<BR>
<BR>
I would take a shot at it, as I seem to have some bizarre talent for making<BR>
Traveller related parodies of various songs. Unfortunately, I really like<BR>
the song and wouldn't want to muck with it.<BR>
<BR>
With that being said, I would change that last bit to:<BR>
<BR>
He's talking to Davie,<BR>
Who'll be in the Navy<BR>
Until he rolls five on the dice.<BR>
<BR>
(For those of you who happen to be unfamiliar with Classic Traveller,<BR>
reenlistment in the Navy requires a roll of 6 or better during chargen)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 23:23:21 EST<BR>
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Counters list<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 3/28/00 3:04:38 AM !!!First Boot!!!, nimrod@santech.com <BR>
writes:<BR>
<BR>
<< Does some one have a list of what counters are in Azhanti High Lightning <BR>
 and Fifth Frontier War.<BR>
  >><BR>
<BR>
I have both, but I punched mine out. I can look for you and list them, but it <BR>
will take a while...<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 22:24:08 -0600<BR>
From: Stormhound <stormhnd@fidnet.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Counters list<BR>
<BR>
Jimmy Simpson wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Does some one have a list of what counters are in Azhanti High Lightning<BR>
> and Fifth Frontier War.<BR>
<BR>
    If nobody else has one handier, I can give you a list of the 5FW<BR>
counters.  I'll have to type it in; it's handwritten on 5 pages from way back<BR>
when I originally bought the game, but it's quite detailed.  I don't own AHL,<BR>
so I can't help there.<BR>
    I assume that said list would =not= be looked on kindly if dumped to the<BR>
list, so if someone else needs it too, give a holler.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
Stormhound<BR>
DNRC Ombudsman for Induhvidual Affairs, Holder of Past Knowledge<BR>
Come visit my web page at http://www.fidnet.com/~stormhnd<BR>
Or my new Amateur Radio web page at http://www.qsl.net/kc0ekv<BR>
Or my JN6 course design page at http://www.fidnet.com/~stormhnd/golfpage.htm<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 23:24:23 -0500<BR>
From: "Smith, Walter" <SmithW@hartwick.edu><BR>
Subject: re: Classification of RPG's<BR>
<BR>
Here's how I classify RPG's, in descending order:<BR>
<BR>
1) Fun to read *and* fun to play.<BR>
2) Fun to play.<BR>
3) Fun to read.<BR>
4) Looks nice on my shelf.<BR>
5) Doesn't look nice on my shelf, but I have closet space.<BR>
6) Not worth the closet space.<BR>
<BR>
All else, as von Richtofen said, is rubbish. <G><BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 23:47:53 -0500<BR>
From: "Smith, Walter" <SmithW@hartwick.edu><BR>
Subject: RE: Drop Tanks<BR>
<BR>
Jason Postma wrote:<BR>
>Dismountable Tanks are in the MegaTraveller design sequence, along with <BR>
>Colapsable Fuel Bladders  and Drop Tanks, IIRC.  Dismountable tanks<BR>
>require you to re-calculate jump performance based on the new <BR>
>displacement (making them useless on Jump-1 ships), <BR>
<BR>
Not exactly.<BR>
<BR>
There's no law against putting enough extra Jump-1 drive in your ship<BR>
to allow your 200dtn ship to Jump-1 while it's got a 23 ton <BR>
demountable tank strapped to it. I can see a trade ship made for<BR>
doing this in an area of J-1 mains that have occaisional J-2 breaks,<BR>
it only takes 0.5 dtns of extra jump drives.<BR>
<BR>
Jason again:<BR>
>I haven't given Drop Tanks much thought myself - mostly because they <BR>
>haven't come up in-game for me.  The Gazelle is the only ship that's <BR>
>specifically designed to work with them, isn't it? <BR>
<BR>
Pretty much, it's the only one we see. The Merchant Cruiser _Leviathan_<BR>
is designed to carry demountable fuel tanks, though - it's from the<BR>
CT adventure of the same name.<BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 23:50:33 -0500<BR>
From: "Smith, Walter" <SmithW@hartwick.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Drop Tanks  <BR>
<BR>
Matthew Bond wrote:<BR>
>IIRC the Gazelle is a TTL14 design, so that puts paid to the notion<BR>
>that drop tanks are only developed at TTL15... <BR>
<BR>
A possibility:<BR>
Drop Tank *technology* is low tech - maybe even TL 9 - while Drop Tank<BR>
*theory* is TL 15.<BR>
<BR>
The Imperium probably had TL 15 research centers long, long before<BR>
any significant percentage of their naval shipbuilding centers were<BR>
TL 15. And once they figured out Drop Tanks, they certainly needed<BR>
a test bed. Hello, Gazelle...<BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 22:53:40 -0600<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
Subject: Re: Drop Tanks<BR>
<BR>
On 03/27/00 at 08:33 AM,  "J-Man" <j-man@iname.com> said:<BR>
<BR>
>I can't believe the topic of Drop Tanks has come up yet again...This is<BR>
>utterly ludicrous.  :)<BR>
<BR>
Can the "P" word be far behind? <g><BR>
<BR>
The interesting thing about a lot of these topics is that they are interlinked. For instance, drop tanks link to the variations on the 100d rule, how jump drive works, whether carrying internal fuel is reasonable, whether you can jump (or misjump) to empty hexes, the ability to survive jumps to empty hexes, finding masses in *supposedly* empty hexes, communication ranges, sensor ranges...need I go on? <g><BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2200<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2201</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
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Traveller-digest      Tuesday, March 28 2000      Volume 1999 : Number 2201<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
OT: Golden Heroes (was Re: Classification of RPGs)  <BR>
Re: Drop Tanks<BR>
Re: Alien thoughts<BR>
Re: Contract Law 101<BR>
Re: Body armour<BR>
Re: Landgrab: Notes on building Heya<BR>
Re: Counters list<BR>
Striker rights?<BR>
Re: GRIP Traveller modules<BR>
Re: Counters list<BR>
RE: GMSound Software<BR>
Re: Landgrab: Notes on building Heya<BR>
RE: Counters list<BR>
Re: Trav Filk<BR>
Re: GMSound Software<BR>
Gaming is a business! (was re: Classification of Systems)<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 23:57:40 -0500<BR>
From: "Smith, Walter" <SmithW@hartwick.edu><BR>
Subject: OT: Golden Heroes (was Re: Classification of RPGs)  <BR>
<BR>
Matthew Bond wrote:<BR>
>Yup, It's an OOP Superhero game from the mid-eighties, published by <BR>
>Games Workshop. <BR>
><BR>
>No mucking around trying to recreate Spidey's wallclimbing by using some <BR>
>weird multi-power speed  and gravity control only when touching a wall a <BR>
>la Champions. You either have the Wallclimbing power or you don't. Want <BR>
>to create a new power? Discuss it with the GM (called SS for Scenario <BR>
>Supervisor in GH <g>) and come up with a paragraph or so of its game <BR>
>effects and thats the power and this is how it works. Simple, but <BR>
>effective. <BR>
<BR>
Sounds pretty much like Villains & Vigilantes. Roll for powers, many<BR>
of them are pretty generic. "Body Power", "Magic Spells", "Psionics"<BR>
and "Mutant Power" pretty much all say "talk to the GM and come up<BR>
with a power".<BR>
<BR>
Matthew again:<BR>
>Of course if the thought of *everything* being randomly rolled is <BR>
>abhorrent, you can always say to the SS "This is the type of character I <BR>
>want to play", and between you you can pick a set of suitable powers and <BR>
>develop your background ( or Rationale, as GH has it) <BR>
<BR>
Yup, Villains & Vigilantes does that too.<BR>
<BR>
I read the online rendition of the Golden Heroes rules, they seemed<BR>
a lot like Villains & Vigilantes straight through. I think the reason<BR>
is because I'm so used to Champions, so two free-formish games<BR>
look similar since they are both different in the same major way from<BR>
my favorite, it makes it hard to see the differences between the<BR>
two. One the one hand we have Champions, on the other hand we have...<BR>
everything else. The "not Champions" crowd seems to blend together.<BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 22:59:46 -0600<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
Subject: Re: Drop Tanks<BR>
<BR>
On 03/27/00 at 11:26 AM,  "Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com> said:<BR>
<BR>
>> We've got new people on the list, though, there are certainly ones who<BR>
>> haven't decided yet how jump tanks will work in their TU's.<BR>
<BR>
>Yes, and then somebody mentioned droptanks that went in jump with you to<BR>
>provide fuel after jump-exit. I had never thought of that.<BR>
<BR>
I remember them coming up a few years ago...everything old is new again, huh? <g><BR>
<BR>
Why don't you combine this "carry along tank" with transporting your<BR>
H2 as water, methane, or ammonia.  You can store a lot more H2 in<BR>
your tank, refine it during jump slowly refilling your actual jump<BR>
tanks.  <BR>
<BR>
Anybody want to do the calculations?  How much extra volume would<BR>
it take to give a ship an extra parsec if you used water in your<BR>
extra tank?<BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 23:53:20 -0600<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
Subject: Re: Alien thoughts<BR>
<BR>
On 03/27/00 at 08:57 PM,  "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz> said:<BR>
<BR>
>> That sounds like the possum I know and love here in the American<BR>
>> south.  Ours are usually somewhat *bigger* than a cat and they are<BR>
>> omnivorous.  I'll bet yours are too.  OTOH, the idea of a possum fur<BR>
>> coat makes me laugh!!!  <g><BR>
<BR>
>I guess it depends on how large the large cat is. <BR>
<BR>
Well, that *is* true. <g> I think 10 to 15 kg is about right.<BR>
<BR>
>I do seem to recall the South America had similar possums to ours - are yours >imports? <BR>
<BR>
Nah, the oppossum is an American native. It ranges all over the two continents. Your opposum has a bushy tail, right?  Well, ours has a hairless tail and looks a lot like a very *very* large rat. <g> <BR>
<BR>
>Our possums aren't technically omnivores, and I've never heard of them <BR>
>hunting anything, but I've no doubt that if they were to find small  dead<BR>
>things such as mice they'd eat them. Their favourite food is  things like<BR>
>new rose buds, fresh friut tree leaves, etc. <BR>
<BR>
Ours are scavangers that will eat *anything* they can get. They eat grubs, worms, new leaves and buds, they'll take eggs and chicks when they can get at them, and will run the cats off the cat food given half a chance. <g><BR>
<BR>
Do yours "play possum?" It gets them killed on the roads...they'll see the lights, and fall "dead" as a defence mechanism. It might work on natural preditors, but it just makes them road kill when up against cars.<BR>
<BR>
>BTW it's a  bold cat that'll take on a possums, as their claws are very long (for  >climbing trees) and they can disembowel a cat, <BR>
<BR>
Nice long teeth too. Have you ever "cornered" one?  Years ago, a possum was on our back porch stealing the cat's dinner when my sister surprised it. It backed into a corner, and let out a loud hiss and showed his teeth. Sister let out a howl, grabbed a broom and went to defend the cat. Here a poke, there a poke, everywhere a poke, poke...and eventually the possum ran off leaving a very badly chewed and scratched broom handle. <g><BR>
<BR>
>...but dogs think they're  fine sport if they can<BR>
>catch them on the ground. They also carry  hydatids and TB, so you have<BR>
>to cook them well before eating them or  feeding them to your dogs.<BR>
<BR>
Yeah, the impression is that they are "dirty" animals. Eating them is really more of a joke than anything else...although it is done from time to time. Possum and sweet 'taters, you know! <g><BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 21:30:04 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Contract Law 101<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Ob Trav: Annoy the party with petty civil service nonsense...<BR>
<BR>
> Ob Trav: What do LEO's (both Imperial and local) do with their sidearms when <BR>
> they cross the extratrality line?<BR>
<BR>
They probably get their ID checked and keep them. If not, expect *lots*<BR>
of paperwork.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 19:21:31 -0500<BR>
From: Ethan Henry <egh@klg.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Body armour<BR>
<BR>
If it wasn't for business trips, I'd never post to the TML...<BR>
<BR>
Michael Maley <mmaley@home.com> wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> One of the odd things I've noticed in most traveller books is the<BR>
> overheating problems with most body armours(other than battledress).<BR>
<BR>
Flex? Diplo? I smell a T4 player. <BR>
<BR>
It is an interesting point though - even for "unpowered" armour like<BR>
diplo and even basic cloth or mesh, there may be a small power source.<BR>
Batteries would probably be sufficient to run a Peltier-cooled for a<BR>
few hours at least, probably a few days by high-TL battery energy <BR>
densities. I always thought that something like diplo would probably <BR>
get pretty hot, unless there's a special Gortex(tm)-lined version or <BR>
something.<BR>
<BR>
Peltier coolers, for those not familiar with them, are little semiconductor<BR>
devices (the exact nature of which escapes me at the moment) that get<BR>
cool on one side and warm on the other when a current is run through them.<BR>
<BR>
Thermodynamics dictates that the hot side gets hotter than cool side gets<BR>
cool, but as long as you only need a few degrees, they're remarkably<BR>
efficient and compact little heat pumps. They're hugely popular with<BR>
people trying to run CPUs at higher than they're rated speeds, where<BR>
heat dissipation is the primary limiting factor.<BR>
<BR>
As for chemical coolers, I'm cure one of the resident chemists can give a<BR>
run down of various compounds that react exo, uh, endo, hm... that get<BR>
cold when they react. (I'm not the chemical engineer in the family).<BR>
<BR>
The "combat environment suit" in CT used a disposable chemical unit not<BR>
for cooling, per se, but for supressing the IR signature from the suit's<BR>
heat exhaust. The CES was never explicitly described as having a powered<BR>
heat pump, presumably it used some sort of air cooling mechanism with the<BR>
IR chameleon unit simply cooling the air to the ambient temp. The suit <BR>
worked exactly the same without the stealth unit, but simply had a huge<BR>
IR signature in the back somewhere.<BR>
<BR>
Ethan<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 23:14:34 -0500<BR>
From: Ethan Henry <egh@klg.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Landgrab: Notes on building Heya<BR>
<BR>
> From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com> wrote:<BR>
><BR>
> Well, I finally got three minutes to rub together, and began working a bit<BR>
> on Heya/Regina.<BR>
<snip><BR>
> I'll do a more formal/neat write up in a few days.<BR>
> <BR>
> Well sirs, what do you think?<BR>
<BR>
Wow. Doug, this may sound wierd, but quit while you're ahead.<BR>
I don't think that you could add a thing to that description<BR>
to make it any better. Well, except stuff like maps and such,<BR>
but the text, for me at least, is golden.<BR>
<BR>
I think it was Twain who said "I didn't have the time to write<BR>
a short letter, so I wrote a long one" - for me, this length of<BR>
write-up is twice as good as a write-up twice as long.<BR>
<BR>
<fawn><BR>
BTW, did I mention that this is awesome? It's awesome.<BR>
</fawn><BR>
<BR>
Ethan<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 22:28:27 -0800<BR>
From: Kristian Miller <travellerne@3rd-imperium.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Counters list<BR>
<BR>
Sethkimmel@aol.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> << Does some one have a list of what counters are in Azhanti High Lightning<BR>
>  and Fifth Frontier War.<BR>
>   >><BR>
> <BR>
> I have both, but I punched mine out. I can look for you and list them, but it<BR>
> will take a while...<BR>
<BR>
This just in from another gaming mail list:<BR>
<BR>
"I wish I'd photocopied my counter sheets before I punched them." -Bruce<BR>
Kirkaldy<BR>
<BR>
If anybody has a list, feel free to post them here.  I'm sure most<BR>
people would appreciate seeing the list and I could post them to the<BR>
3rd-imperium domain.<BR>
<BR>
Kristian<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 22:42:45 -0800<BR>
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)<BR>
Subject: Striker rights?<BR>
<BR>
>From: "Katharine Whitchurch" <katts@globalfreeway.com.au><BR>
>Subject: Re: Making energy weapons work in FFS2<BR>
...<BR>
>PS This is the first cut of FFS3, right ? I think we shold concentrate on<BR>
>making it work for sure at TL9-13, so as to best cover the TLs most<BR>
>prevalent in the Imperium (and in Milleaux 0 and 200). What I'm thinking is<BR>
>to keep most of the Striker I rules set (Frank Chadwick owns the rights,<BR>
>right ?) and build a bunch of Strikerised FFS3 equipment.<BR>
<BR>
  AFAIK, it's a Traveller product - it's also listed as being scheduled<BR>
for the "Games" volume of the Classic Traveller Collectors' Edition reprints:<BR>
        http://members.aol.com/Traveller/<BR>
<BR>
  So presumably Mr. Millers lawyer agrees that he owns the rights :)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 22:51:53 -0800<BR>
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)<BR>
Subject: Re: GRIP Traveller modules<BR>
<BR>
>Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 16:58:58 -0800<BR>
>From: "Luther Martin" <martin@ksarul.com><BR>
>Subject: GRIP Traveller modules<BR>
><BR>
>I noticed that two GRIP (http://www.rpgrealms.com/Traveller/) modules are<BR>
>available for CT: The Kinunir, and Research Station Gamma. Has anyone seen<BR>
>these? Good? Bad?<BR>
<BR>
  These appear to be reprints of the CT modules in electronic format for<BR>
on-line gaming (that seems to make sense...). Interesting. Presumably the<BR>
Kinunir deckplans are there as a *.GIF, which is worth a few bucks just to<BR>
scale them up and feed them through the largest printer you can find :)<BR>
<BR>
  Heck, I'm tempted to buy the module just to find out if that works...<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 00:45:40 -0600<BR>
From: Scott Shafer <screamingjackass@earthlink.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Counters list<BR>
<BR>
Far Futures is supposed to put out a volume of the games from Traveller.<BR>
This would have the counter images from AHL and FFW. Its a lot easier than<BR>
transcribing the list of counters. AZH has a bunch of doublesided counters<BR>
that are all different on the back.<BR>
<BR>
Scott<BR>
<BR>
> From: Kristian Miller <travellerne@3rd-imperium.com><BR>
> Reply-To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 22:28:27 -0800<BR>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> Subject: Re: Counters list<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> Sethkimmel@aol.com wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
>> << Does some one have a list of what counters are in Azhanti High Lightning<BR>
>> and Fifth Frontier War.<BR>
>>>> <BR>
>> <BR>
>> I have both, but I punched mine out. I can look for you and list them, but it<BR>
>> will take a while...<BR>
> <BR>
> This just in from another gaming mail list:<BR>
> <BR>
> "I wish I'd photocopied my counter sheets before I punched them." -Bruce<BR>
> Kirkaldy<BR>
> <BR>
> If anybody has a list, feel free to post them here.  I'm sure most<BR>
> people would appreciate seeing the list and I could post them to the<BR>
> 3rd-imperium domain.<BR>
> <BR>
> Kristian<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 18:50:31 +1200<BR>
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: GMSound Software<BR>
<BR>
On Behalf Of Leonard Erickson<BR>
> In mail you write:<BR>
><BR>
> > Brothers and Sisters of the TML,<BR>
> ><BR>
> > In my never-ending quest for quality GM-assistant software, I decided it<BR>
> > would be nice to have a program to play an assortment of wave files<BR>
> > quickly and easily.  After searching in vain for such a program,<BR>
><BR>
> You should have asked here. I have two such programs, both run in *DOS*.<BR>
<BR>
Is the fact that they run in DOS supposed to be a good thing ?<BR>
<BR>
Damn OS dependant software !<BR>
<BR>
I'll have to write a Java version.<BR>
Should only take an  hour or so.<BR>
<grin><BR>
<BR>
Frankie<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 08:52:38 +0200 (METDST)<BR>
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk><BR>
Subject: Re: Landgrab: Notes on building Heya<BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry writes:<BR>
<BR>
>The "bluebook" stats from the Spinward Marches Campaign are:<BR>
><BR>
>B687745-5 Ag Ri 734Im K6iii M8d<BR>
> <BR>
>Well, I started changing things immediately.  I changed the primary to a<BR>
>K2v, and the companion to a M0v.<BR>
<BR>
Out of curiosity, why did you change the star classes?<BR>
<BR>
>My next problem was that Heya is listed as having a dense atmosphere.  Hard<BR>
>to justify on such a small planet. I fudged the die rolls to give the world<BR>
>a density of 5.4g/cc. Even with that, the best I could manage was an<BR>
>atmospheric pressure of 1.2 standard. Oh, well. That's still pretty good<BR>
>for a world with only .67 gravity.<BR>
<BR>
Hmmm... Are you using First In here? I recently tried to work out a dense<BR>
atmosphere for a size 4 world and worked out that you can just manage it<BR>
with a size 5.4 world. Mind you, it would require a minimum of three natural<BR>
18s on the die rolls to get that result randomly, but it can be done. For a<BR>
size 6 world I wouldn't expect any trouble.<BR>
<BR>
>Local life must either be extremely tough, or be adapted to decade-long<BR>
>hibernation triggered by the approaching red star.  I imagine that many of<BR>
>the animals will be amphibious, and the plant life will make use of the<BR>
>wildfires caused by this passage and the attendant heating.<BR>
<BR>
>So who lives here? According to the data we have, 70 million farmers. The<BR>
>Regency Sourcebook makes that 100 million with a ten percent Vargr<BR>
>minority, but more on them later.<BR>
<BR>
A 10 to 19% Vargr minority...<BR>
 <BR>
>My first question in this case was why isn't this a mining colony? It is an<BR>
>unusually dense world, after all.. why isn't it being strip-mined?<BR>
<BR>
The original survey didn't reveal useful mineral sources. [The Traveller<BR>
Book, p. 129]<BR>
 <BR>
>Ponder, ponder... perhaps the mines just didn't pay off? Eureka! The planet<BR>
>was settled under a mining grant to Sternmetal Horizons, LIC in the early<BR>
>300s. After two centuries of effort, the company decided the mines weren't<BR>
>worth the cost to run them and sold the colonial rights.<BR>
<BR>
Heya was settled between 300 and 400, but it remained outside the Imperium<BR>
till after 500. [TA:15] It joined the Imperium between 500 and 589. [SMC:14]<BR>
<BR>
>Looking around the subsector, it's obvious where their products go.. there<BR>
>are three hi-pop world in the subsector, at least two of which cannot feed<BR>
>themselves. No wonder they're rich! They can sell their grains and seafood<BR>
>for any price they want!<BR>
<BR>
According to The Traveller Book Heya's only source of off-planet currency is<BR>
tourism and the government is pretty desperate to get that. Mind you, I don't<BR>
claim that that makes much sense.<BR>
 <BR>
>Doing the societal factors in first in produces few surprises. Heyans are<BR>
>staid, solid conservative types, a bit wary of strangers. So far, except<BR>
>for the weather, dull as the dirt they work.<BR>
<BR>
Except for the rebels, of course.<BR>
 <BR>
Here is my file of canonical info about Heya. I hope you will find it useful:<BR>
<BR>
Heya has a single continent with a dense jungle area called the Hamantt in <BR>
the center. The continent is roughly handshaped (with six fingers) and <BR>
10,000 km across at its widest point. The fingers are extremely fertile<BR>
lowlands. The palm of the hand is highland and the source of many rivers<BR>
which irrigate the lowlands. The Hamantt is the central jungle from which <BR>
the rivers flow. Heya's starport (Atarishii Down) is adjacent to Hilung,<BR>
the world's capital and major city. Hilung is a seaport at the mouth of a<BR>
great river flowing out of the Hamantt. Most other cities on the world is<BR>
small and farming-oriented. There's at least one large lake (150 km by<BR>
300 km). It is located about 2400 km from Hilung to the north. [TB:129]<BR>
<BR>
Animal encounter tables for Heya can be found on page 158 of _The Traveller<BR>
Book_.<BR>
<BR>
Heya is settled between 300 and 400 and remains outside the Imperium till<BR>
after 500. [TA:15]<BR>
<BR>
Heya is part of the imperium in 589. [SMC:14]<BR>
<BR>
Around 1100 Heya is plagued by guerrillas hostile to the local government.<BR>
Heya only source of off-planet currency is tourism[*] and the government<BR>
conceals the extent of the problems and restricts tourists to the <BR>
relatively safe areas south of the capital. Due to the rebels imports<BR>
restrictions on weapons are very tight. [TB:129]<BR>
<BR>
[*] What, no agricultural exports?<BR>
<BR>
Since the Hamantt appears to be north of the capital, the continent would<BR>
appeat to be oriented with the palm to the north. [TB:129]<BR>
<BR>
The initial survey of Heya is conducted "several centuries" before 1105 and<BR>
shows it devoid of exploitable resources. Shortly before 1105 it is rumored<BR>
that the initial report was forged [*], and that extensive and valuable<BR>
mineral deposits lie hidden in the Hamantt Jungle. [TB:129] <BR>
<BR>
[*] What in the world for???<BR>
<BR>
During 5FW Heya was occupied by elements of the Uthith Fleet (formed by the<BR>
Ekhlle Ksafi (40th Squadron). When the Gireel Fleet was destroyed at Beck's<BR>
World, Admiral Thuekhs negotiated a separate peace and withdrew from Regina<BR>
Subsector on 252-1109. [VV:51]<BR>
<BR>
2402 Heya (Imperial)<BR>
  Starport: Class IV.<BR>
  Diameter: 5,656 miles (9,100 km). Atmosphere: Dense oxygen-nitrogen.<BR>
Surface Water: 70%. Climate: Cool. Population: 71,000,000. Government:<BR>
Representative democracy. Control rating: 2. TL: 6.<BR>
<BR>
A rich agricultural world whose weather and soil allow the production of<BR>
large quantities of high-quality cereal grains. An Imperial Navy cruiser<BR>
squadron is on alert in orbit, but so far the Vargr have not attacked.<BR>
[BTC:83]<BR>
<BR>
Heya is a moderately populated world of 71 million sentients with a good<BR>
starport, but a local tech level of only 6. For several decades Heya has been<BR>
plagued by insurrectionists. This has forced Heya to divert funds to<BR>
counter-insurgency forces and skimp on system defenses. Usually an Imperial<BR>
cruiser squadron is stationed in the system to provide added security.<BR>
<BR>
Heya has a habitable moon called Heya-minor, a world with substantial forest<BR>
cover, with a diameter of 3000 miles and a standard atmosphere. It is very<BR>
lightly settled because of the uncomfortably low gravity, but a number of<BR>
mines and other resource extraction operations exist. Some of these are<BR>
owned by various Imperial corporations under licence. Sternmetal Horizons,<BR>
Oberlindes Lines, and SuSAG are all represented. [Heya-minor is] considerably<BR>
less well defended than Heya itself. [Star Mercs:93-95]<BR>
<BR>
1105: B687745-5/? [SM:20]<BR>
1110: B687745-5/7 [SMC:26]<BR>
1117: B687745-5/7 [RS:38]<BR>
1120: B687745-5/7; Vargr world [IE:96]<BR>
1202: B687845-7/1; Scout base; Interface station; 10-19% Vargr; Zhodani<BR>
                   Refugee World; Regency world [RS:38]<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
      Hans Rancke<BR>
University of Copenhagen<BR>
     rancke@diku.dk<BR>
- ------------<BR>
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent<BR>
         events based on the individual situation."<BR>
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 18:58:31 +1200<BR>
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: Counters list<BR>
<BR>
> Jimmy Simpson wrote:<BR>
><BR>
> > Does some one have a list of what counters are in Azhanti High Lightning<BR>
> > and Fifth Frontier War.<BR>
><BR>
>     If nobody else has one handier, I can give you a list of the 5FW<BR>
> counters.  I'll have to type it in; it's handwritten on 5 pages<BR>
> from way back<BR>
> when I originally bought the game, but it's quite detailed.  I<BR>
> don't own AHL,  so I can't help there.<BR>
<BR>
>     I assume that said list would =not= be looked on kindly if<BR>
> dumped to the list, so if someone else needs it too, give a holler.<BR>
<BR>
I can mail anyone who wants one a scan of the unpunched sheets from either<BR>
game.<BR>
<BR>
Mail me direct at frankie@mundens.gen.nz and I'll mail you a .jpg<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Frankie<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 02:21:46 -0500<BR>
From: "DaveShayne" <daveshayne@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Trav Filk<BR>
<BR>
>Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 23:23:53 -0500<BR>
>From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net><BR>
>Subject: Re: Trav Filk<BR>
><BR>
>From: <Sethkimmel@aol.com><BR>
><BR>
><BR>
>> "It's 2100 on a sixday, and the regular crowd is here..."<BR>
>><BR>
>> or "he's talking to Davie, whose still the Navy, and probably will be<BR>
>> for  life"<BR>
>><BR>
>> I really would like to compleat this, but I have NO talent for writing<BR>
(or<BR>
>> even singing) a filk...:-(<BR>
><BR>
>I would take a shot at it, as I seem to have some bizarre talent for making<BR>
>Traveller related parodies of various songs. Unfortunately, I really like<BR>
>the song and wouldn't want to muck with it.<BR>
><BR>
>With that being said, I would change that last bit to:<BR>
><BR>
>He's talking to Davie,<BR>
>Who'll be in the Navy<BR>
>Until he rolls five on the dice.<BR>
><BR>
>(For those of you who happen to be unfamiliar with Classic Traveller,<BR>
>reenlistment in the Navy requires a roll of 6 or better during chargen)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
I've got the first two phrases I think.<BR>
<BR>
   It's fifteen-hundred on a sevenday as the free trader crowd stumbles in<BR>
   They're looking for cargoes and passengers over shots of Denebian gin.<BR>
<BR>
And that's as far as I can go untill I can get My sister to email me the<BR>
lyrics<BR>
to the origonal (need it for scansion comparison yaknow.)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 11:14:51 -0800<BR>
From: Justin Engler <jengler@u.washington.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: GMSound Software<BR>
<BR>
Do you have a java implementation that runs in dos?  : )<BR>
<BR>
"Frank G. Pitt" wrote:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> <SNIP><BR>
<BR>
> I'll have to write a Java version.<BR>
> Should only take an  hour or so.<BR>
> <grin><BR>
><BR>
> Frankie<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 22:31:15 -0900<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Gaming is a business! (was re: Classification of Systems)<BR>
<BR>
"William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net> wrote<BR>
<BR>
[Jesse wrote] <BR>
> >I was there from 90-97 and dealt with<BR>
> >Bosco's regularly.  I always thought that their supply of new stuff always<BR>
> >sucked, although they had a pretty awesome supply of OOP materials.<BR>
> >It may just be the supplements that I was having a problem with though,<BR>
> >considering that I had all of the games that I intended to play at the time.<BR>
<BR>
> Bosco's, since the early 80's has had a problem keeping new supplements for<BR>
> the major lines in stock. However, they've always had a good selection of<BR>
> new games, until about the last 4 months. Funny, that corresponds with<BR>
> Peter Newman quitting.<BR>
<BR>
[The following polemic reflects my own opinion and is not <BR>
necessarily the opinion of any others including my former <BR>
employers - on the other hand, IMNSHO, it is a pretty<BR>
good description of the state of the US gaming business.]<BR>
<BR>
The thing about gaming stores is that they are in business<BR>
to make a profit. Most US businesses make less than 10% profit.<BR>
This means that _one_ product that does not sell destroys<BR>
all the profit you make on nine others that do sell.<BR>
<BR>
Lets say a store that makes a 9% annual profit orders 10 <BR>
copies of the hot new RPG supplement, the Reformation Coalition <BR>
Clan Book which retails for $20. The store pays about 10 or<BR>
12 dollars for each. Then they have to pay shipping (which<BR>
costs more to Alaska). They have to pay rent, salaries,<BR>
and all the other expenses that come from having a business.<BR>
When all these expenses are added up they come to 91% of<BR>
retail, leaving 9% as profits. This means that for the 10<BR>
copies of the Reformation Coalition Clan Book they have to<BR>
make $182 just to break even.<BR>
<BR>
[Assuming our game store does not offer any discounts.]<BR>
<BR>
So if they sell all 10 copies they make $18 in profits.<BR>
<BR>
If they sell 9 copies they loose $2<BR>
<BR>
If they sell 8 copies they loose $22<BR>
<BR>
Etc.<BR>
<BR>
Lets say that the person who orders games for this store<BR>
understands this. He carefully checks his computer records<BR>
of sales on the last similar product, the Regency Clan Book,<BR>
and sees that he has sold 7 copies to date, 4 in the first<BR>
month of sales. His boss does not want him to risk loosing <BR>
money by over ordering nor does the boss want to much capital <BR>
tied up in inventory.<BR>
<BR>
With these guidelines in mind, and including his knowledge<BR>
of the market, he orders 5 copies of the Reformation Coalition<BR>
Clan Book. He has to place this order about 3 months ahead<BR>
of time. Between eh time he orders the Clan Book and the<BR>
time it is released (late, as most new gaming products are)<BR>
a new gaming group starts up. Because of the increased demand<BR>
all five copies of the game sell out in the first six days<BR>
the product has been on the shelf.<BR>
<BR>
This store does reorders once a week (to save on shipping<BR>
costs which are the bane of all businesses trying to watch <BR>
their bottom line). The product comes in on a Thursday and<BR>
is all sold out by Wednesday of the next week. This store,<BR>
like many stores, does its biggest sales over the weekends.<BR>
Therefore they do their reorders every Sunday night. So when<BR>
the game sells out it takes the store three days to reorder.<BR>
Then it takes the games a about three days to arrive (by<BR>
air cargo) or about 10 days to arrive (by ground or sea).<BR>
<BR>
This means that the store will be sold out of the hot new<BR>
product for a week or two at best.<BR>
<BR>
Lets suppose that when the store does their reorder their<BR>
distributor is sold out. (We will say this store deals with<BR>
several different distributors but does most of their<BR>
gaming business with one or two distributors they have good <BR>
relationships and terms with). Their distributor is out of<BR>
stock because they (just like the store) are in business to<BR>
make money and they also ordered tightly, just a little<BR>
bit more than their pre orders. So the distributor has to<BR>
order more copies from the publisher. These copies usually<BR>
take a while to arrive. The store is therefore out of the hot<BR>
new product for a month. <BR>
<BR>
Furthermore he publisher may have a minimum order size (or at <BR>
least a minimum order size for free freight but since the <BR>
distributor, just like the store, is watching their shipping <BR>
costs they will not make any orders that do not make the free <BR>
freight minimum. Lets take a few fairly typical true examples.<BR>
<BR>
Company number one requires a minimum order of 100 items but<BR>
they will ship each product in any quantities. Almost all their<BR>
new products ship late. They pay free fright within the contiguous<BR>
states but not to Alaska. Their fill rate is good. They have<BR>
a good distributor discount. They are hard to contact.<BR>
<BR>
Company number two requires all products be ordered in case<BR>
quantities (usually 12's but sometimes 24's or 6's). They<BR>
offer a shorter discount then most other publishers. They are<BR>
hard to deal with. They have a minimum order size that requires<BR>
that about $500 retail of products be ordered. Their fill rate <BR>
on their back stock is poor. They offer free freight but they<BR>
ship all products via a specific shipping company - said shipping<BR>
company is unreliable. Their products usually come out on<BR>
time. They are hard to contact.<BR>
<BR>
Company number three requires that all products be ordered in<BR>
case sizes (usually 6's, sometimes 12's). They offer a good<BR>
distributor discount. Their minimum order size requires that<BR>
about $575 retail of product be ordered. They pay free fright <BR>
within the contiguous states but not to Alaska. Their fill rate<BR>
in fair. They are fairly easy to contact.<BR>
<BR>
Because of publishers like the three mentioned above (whose<BR>
names I will not mention although I will note that all are larger<BR>
than SJG) distributors can not always even do a reorder right<BR>
away. They may have to wait for next months new product order<BR>
and do the reorder along with the new stuff.<BR>
<BR>
The above is assuming the distributor even has time to do <BR>
reorders right away; they may be busy with phones ringing off <BR>
the hook with calls from people looking for Pokemon cards that<BR>
the distributor does not have because of the way WOTC has<BR>
chosen to do business. <BR>
<BR>
Nor have I mentioned the shake ups in the distribution<BR>
market over the past few years.<BR>
<BR>
Lets say when the distributor finally reorders the product that <BR>
it is out of stock. Gaming publishers usually don't have the<BR>
best cash flow (or organization). New products usually sell <BR>
better than reprints. The publisher may decide to take their cash <BR>
and use it to pay the printing costs (printers usually want cash<BR>
up front, especially with smaller companies) for next months new<BR>
product, the Black Curtain Clan Book, rather than going back<BR>
to press on the Reformation Coalition Clan Book. The store could<BR>
be out of stock for a year or more.<BR>
<BR>
I have not even discussed the fact that the store may not<BR>
have any copies on the shelf because the last copy is being<BR>
held for a customer. Murphy's Law says that if the store reorders <BR>
the customer will not pick up the special order so the store <BR>
decides not to reorder despite not having any copies on the <BR>
shelf. Or the fact that the store may be O/S because the last<BR>
copy has been stolen, the store wont know to reorder the product<BR>
because their computer won't tell them that it's sold out.<BR>
Or the fact that the product may be on the shelf but is in the <BR>
wrong location as it may have been moved or hidden by a customer,<BR>
or possibly put out in the incorrect area to begin with by a clerk<BR>
with more familiarity with comics or sports cards than with games.<BR>
Or the fact that the computer program the store uses to track its<BR>
sales may not be perfect. Or that the sale may have been recorded<BR>
improperly in the first place. Or that the distributor may make<BR>
an error filling the pre order or reorder. Or that air cargo is a <BR>
lower priority than passengers so the games may get stuck at an <BR>
airport. [UPS only ships to Alaska via air and its not worth it.]<BR>
Or that weather may delay planes. Or that barges sometimes take<BR>
a while to unload.<BR>
<BR>
Of _course_ it is going to be hard for stores to keep new products<BR>
in stock. The stores don't know what the demand will be so <BR>
they order light. When they go to reorder it they have problems<BR>
getting restocks.<BR>
<BR>
Peter Newman - who ordered games for a chain of gaming stores<BR>
and (later) for a distributor for may years until he quit a few<BR>
months ago to attend grad school<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2201<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2202</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
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Traveller-digest      Tuesday, March 28 2000      Volume 1999 : Number 2202<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
TML Landgrab-- Is BtC "canon" circa 1116?<BR>
Stellar Data question-- can "habitable" worlds exist around M-V stars?<BR>
UWP question-- What is a "J" class base?<BR>
Thanks Dave!<BR>
Re: Drop Tanks<BR>
Re:  Trav Filk<BR>
Re: Traveller News Service<BR>
Operation BRAG<BR>
Quick Character Generation<BR>
TML Landgrab<BR>
Re: TML Landgrab<BR>
ACQ - how to get it ?<BR>
Expanded Point Defense rules<BR>
RE: Operation BRAG<BR>
Re: Alien thoughts<BR>
Re: Counters list<BR>
Re: EW & Black Curtain<BR>
WANTED: GT Size Specs for Common Small Ships<BR>
Re: Contract Law 101<BR>
Re: Contract Law 101<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 23:33:03 -0800<BR>
From: "James W. Lindsay" <jlindsay@home.com><BR>
Subject: TML Landgrab-- Is BtC "canon" circa 1116?<BR>
<BR>
I was thinking about this very question a few days ago...<BR>
<BR>
Some listees feel that GURPS Traveller isn't "canon" because it basically<BR>
invalidates both the already established MT and TNE universes.  IOW, you<BR>
can't likely have a Rebellion Era-- or for that matter, a Virus Era-- if<BR>
Strephon is never assassinated.  But I'm heading off on a tangent here...<BR>
<BR>
People have claimed that "Behind the Claw" isn't canon, based on the simple<BR>
fact that it is a *GURPS* Traveller product.  While the GT universe<BR>
obviously isn't canon for those players using the MT and TNE settings, 99%<BR>
of the data in BtC is still valid up until the year 1116.  In fact, it is<BR>
probably valid until at least the middle of 1117, since any news of<BR>
Strephon's assassination wouldn't have reached the Marches yet.<BR>
Allegiances likely wouldn't have changed, and the ihatei and Vargr would<BR>
have no reason to encroach upon Imperial territory as they did in the early<BR>
years of the Rebellion Era.  IMHO.<BR>
<BR>
So what is my point?  BtC is perhaps the best reference for anyone wishing<BR>
to partake in the TML Landgrab and stick close to established canon.<BR>
Granted, some of the references seem to contradict earlier data, but BtC is<BR>
also the only reference still in publication and easily acquirable.  Of<BR>
course, I am assuming that Landgrabbers will be using a current Imperial<BR>
date somewhere in the early 1100s in order to appeal to those who might<BR>
actually use the Landgrab data.  Again, IMHO.<BR>
<BR>
However, BtC is *not* the best choice if you wish to claim a client state<BR>
or non-aligned world in the TML landgrab.  Apparently, many of these such<BR>
worlds changed allegiance between the FFW (outlined in the CT book "The<BR>
Spinward Marches Campaign") and 1116.  I should know: I claimed Arden<BR>
(1011), and will probably include some brief info on the five additional<BR>
worlds that were apparently brought into the Federation between the years<BR>
spanning these two sources :)<BR>
<BR>
PS: It is also my opinion that Supplement 3: The Spinward Marches isn't an<BR>
ideal canon reference for this sector either.  There is simply too much<BR>
info missing in the 32 pages that cover the sector.  Again, I am somewhat<BR>
biased in that this supplement contains virtually no data at all (beyond<BR>
UPPs) regarding the demilitarized zone between the Zhodani Consulate and<BR>
the Imperial frontier worlds.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
James W. Lindsay             Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada<BR>
Website: http://members.home.net/jlindsay          ICQ: #7521644<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
Cat problem: being mistaken for Bill the cat.<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 23:33:23 -0800<BR>
From: "James W. Lindsay" <jlindsay@home.com><BR>
Subject: Stellar Data question-- can "habitable" worlds exist around M-V stars?<BR>
<BR>
This question has always bothered me, ever since Book 6: Scouts came out.<BR>
<BR>
The tables in Book 6 show that a large majority of stars generated using<BR>
this system are M-type stars with a luminescent class of V.  According to<BR>
the orbit zone table for class V stars, only M0-type stars have any hope of<BR>
having a habitable orbit.  Any world beyond orbit #0 would simply be too<BR>
cold to support life without the aid of high technology.  Likewise, any<BR>
star cooler than about M2 would have no chance of possessing a habitable<BR>
orbit.<BR>
<BR>
When I first got The Spinward Marches Campaign, all of the worlds in the<BR>
sector contained stellar data.  Yippie!  I first thought that this would<BR>
make my job easier if I ever was interested in using the extended system<BR>
generation rule to plot out orbits, etc.  Unfortunately, quite a number of<BR>
the worlds in TSMC are M-type stars with a luminosity class of V-- most of<BR>
them being M5 and colder.  According to the table, such stars feature *no*<BR>
habitable zones.  Great.<BR>
<BR>
Thankfully, TNE noticed this problem and provided a small footnote on page<BR>
192 beneath the "Primary Star Type and Size" table: "If a mainworld has<BR>
already been created, and mainworld Atmosphere 4-9 or Population 8+, DM<BR>
+5."  This shifts the table down quite a bit, with F-type stars now being<BR>
the majority.  Judging by the data in TNE's Regency Sourcebook, GDW took<BR>
this into account and updated the Spinward Marches sector data.  Still,<BR>
there are still a few so-called habitable worlds orbiting M3-V and cooler<BR>
stars.<BR>
<BR>
Now I know we had a lengthy discussion as to how high population, low tech<BR>
worlds could possibly exist in hostile environments like vacuum worlds, but<BR>
even vacuum worlds could exist within a habitable orbit to give life a<BR>
little help.  Anyone have any suggestions as to how, for example, 600,000<BR>
humans could survive using TL7 technology on a 1,600 km diameter rock with<BR>
negligible water or atmosphere (Zenopit/Jewell)-- *outside* the habitable<BR>
region of an M3-V star?  Either I have to fudge the data and say that this<BR>
tiny rock orbits v-e-r-y close to the star, or come up with something else.<BR>
<BR>
Any thoughts?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
James W. Lindsay             Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada<BR>
Website: http://members.home.net/jlindsay          ICQ: #7521644<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
Cat problem: being mistaken for Bill the cat.<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 23:33:13 -0800<BR>
From: "James W. Lindsay" <jlindsay@home.com><BR>
Subject: UWP question-- What is a "J" class base?<BR>
<BR>
I was flipping through the Regency Sourcebook and came upon a solitary<BR>
reference for Zircon/Jewell-- a "J" type military base.  I can find no<BR>
mention of it anywhere and do not believe it to be a typo.  Does errata<BR>
exist for this book anywhere?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
James W. Lindsay             Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada<BR>
Website: http://members.home.net/jlindsay          ICQ: #7521644<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
Cat problem: being mistaken for Bill the cat.<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 05:54:49 +1000<BR>
From: "Karen and Michael Hughes" <kmhughes@dynamite.com.au><BR>
Subject: Thanks Dave!<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
> The Bk8 and MT equipment is essentially identical*, esp. considering they<BR>
were<BR>
> designed by the same mob - DGP. MT only differs in that it uses the MT<BR>
> "life-force" damage system (esentially a way of converting hit points to<BR>
hit<BR>
> dice, for those on the "rule-set" thread! ;-)<BR>
><BR>
> Try using the MT Ref's rules, but use liters. Just don't multiply by 10.<BR>
This<BR>
> seems to give reasonable figures.<BR>
><BR>
> Take K-9, forex:<BR>
>      Chassis inop DP: Size / 15 = 170 / 15 = 11.33, round up to 12 DP<BR>
>      Chassis dest DP: Size / 6  = 170 / 6  = 28.33, round up to 29 DP<BR>
><BR>
> Gumby!** I've just realised I should have altered K-9's inop by the ECP<BR>
> multiplier, and should probably take into account the size of his "head"!!<BR>
This<BR>
> makes the values thus:<BR>
>      Chassis inop DP: (Size/15)*1.5 = ((170+10)/15)*1.5) = 18 DP<BR>
>      Chassis dest DP: (Size / 6)    = 180 / 6            = 30 DP<BR>
><BR>
> Since his armour is 18, his chassis can withstand [FROM MEMORY] two<BR>
> effective-range hits from an FGMP-15 before becoming inoperative (not<BR>
counting<BR>
> critically successful hits). I'll buy that for a dollar.<BR>
><BR>
> Hmm, I feel a webpage update coming on...<BR>
><BR>
> >Also does anyone understand Robot combat from book 8? I can't work out<BR>
how<BR>
> >much damage they can handle.<BR>
><BR>
> Er, not sure of the problem here... if using Bk 8, you calc the chassis<BR>
hit<BR>
> points according to the rule on the second page of the chapter on Robots<BR>
in<BR>
> Traveller. Then use the Location tables to determine what was hit.<BR>
><BR>
> Am I missing something?<BR>
><BR>
> I'll have to have another look at this later this week.<BR>
><BR>
> *A few differences exist in weight/volume matters - se my errata,<BR>
currently<BR>
> hosted somewhere on Downport.<BR>
> **The 70's version of "Doh!".<BR>
> - ------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
> David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Robot advice is going straight into the pool room*<BR>
<BR>
*Saved TML useful things.<BR>
<BR>
Thank you good sir <doffs cap><BR>
<BR>
SEC: Michael<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 00:14:48 -0800<BR>
From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@worldnet.att.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Drop Tanks<BR>
<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> On 03/27/00 at 08:33 AM,  "J-Man" <j-man@iname.com> said:<BR>
><BR>
> >I can't believe the topic of Drop Tanks has come up yet again...This is<BR>
> >utterly ludicrous.  :)<BR>
><BR>
> Can the "P" word be far behind? <g><BR>
<BR>
Or or or..... Vilani cannibalism....<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
Evyn...<BR>
<BR>
C-Space home http://home.att.net/~wmacdude/<BR>
<BR>
Get six jolly cowboys to carry my coffin<BR>
Get six pretty maidens to bear up my pall<BR>
Bunches of roses all over my coffin<BR>
Roses to deaden the clods as they fall<BR>
 Laredo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 23:20:01 -0900<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re:  Trav Filk<BR>
<BR>
"DaveShayne" <daveshayne@email.msn.com> wrote<BR>
<BR>
> I've got the first two phrases I think.<BR>
> <BR>
>It's fifteen-hundred on a sevenday as the free trader crowd stumbles in<BR>
>They're looking for cargoes and passengers over shots of Denebian gin.<BR>
> <BR>
> And that's as far as I can go untill I can get my sister to email me the<BR>
> lyrics to the origonal (need it for scansion comparison yaknow.)<BR>
<BR>
Why?<BR>
<BR>
Just go to your favorite search site & type in Billy Joel<BR>
Song Lyrics or the songs title to find the lyrics. It's<BR>
bound to be on the web.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 00:26:01 -0800<BR>
From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@worldnet.att.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller News Service<BR>
<BR>
webmaster@sjgames.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Scandia/Solomani Rim<BR>
><BR>
> Scandia/Solomani Rim                  119-1117<BR>
> Received 120-1117<BR>
> A cross-border courier arrived today with word of a major development within the Solomani Confederation. The planet Kukulcan has declared itself a sovereign and independent world, severing all ties with the Solomani central government. The Confederation's response is unknown at this time.<BR>
<BR>
Cool....<BR>
<BR>
As a member of the Confed I'm moving here to help in the rebellion.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
Evyn...<BR>
<BR>
C-Space home http://home.att.net/~wmacdude/<BR>
<BR>
Get six jolly cowboys to carry my coffin<BR>
Get six pretty maidens to bear up my pall<BR>
Bunches of roses all over my coffin<BR>
Roses to deaden the clods as they fall<BR>
 Laredo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 06:25:00 +1000<BR>
From: "Karen and Michael Hughes" <kmhughes@dynamite.com.au><BR>
Subject: Operation BRAG<BR>
<BR>
Well I just got Across the Bright Face/Mission on Mithril for $7.50 and<BR>
Aliens of the Rim (Hiver and Ith something something race sourcebooks for<BR>
TNE) for $28 Australian from my FL2ndhandGS<BR>
<BR>
What do you think about them apples?<BR>
<BR>
I am so smart, S-M-R-T I mean S-M-A-R-T etc.<BR>
<BR>
To think all I had to do was flex off work to get them. God bless the public<BR>
service <hand on heart, hums Advance Australia Fair as the flag comes down>.<BR>
<BR>
Speaking of flag stuff, whilst leaving the library at our Tri-service<BR>
military academy they were lowering the flag out the front. The WO blew a<BR>
whistle and two students who'd been walking/chatting in front immeditaly<BR>
went into attention mode until the whistle went again.<BR>
<BR>
Is this a stock standard flag thing for Western (English Speaking) armies -<BR>
or just an academy thing?<BR>
<BR>
Ob Trav; Does the empire have sunburt raising/lowering ceremonies? I'd like<BR>
to see that - look a Groudn Forces cover!<BR>
<BR>
SEC: Michael<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 06:52:39 +1000<BR>
From: "Karen and Michael Hughes" <kmhughes@dynamite.com.au><BR>
Subject: Quick Character Generation<BR>
<BR>
Not sure if this is a dead topic - but I actually made up a '20 minutes or<BR>
it's free' Traveller character generation system roughly along the lines of<BR>
Call of Cthulu  character generation (no there is no Mythos skill). The<BR>
skill lists are pretty much a conglomerate T4 and Mt with some of my own<BR>
stuff, but it is easy to get the gist. It's a random/player choice combo (no<BR>
upsizing).<BR>
<BR>
Anyone wanna have a look?<BR>
<BR>
Email me direct if you do. It's an 18 page word doc*<BR>
<BR>
*18 pages - what's so quick about that I hear you ask - well thats the<BR>
complete career and skill list so unless you're a Minister for Everything it<BR>
ain't applicable.<BR>
<BR>
Oh I haven't put any legalise on it so it's all copy righted by Far Future I<BR>
guess.<BR>
<BR>
SEC: Michael**<BR>
<BR>
** If I just went Michael would people know who I am?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 04:32:23 -0500<BR>
From: Peter Miller <thegolem@mindless.com><BR>
Subject: TML Landgrab<BR>
<BR>
Alright, I've decided to get in on this as well.<BR>
<BR>
Assuming it hasn't been taken; I'm going to stake my claim to Quopist\Lanth <BR>
myself.<BR>
<BR>
Would anybody be able to tell me whether or not this book gets a writeup in <BR>
BtC?<BR>
<BR>
The UWP and associated material I have is garnered from Ethan Henry's <BR>
(excellent) Java subsector viewer:<BR>
UWP - B150679-A<BR>
Zone - A<BR>
Allegiance - Im<BR>
Stellar Data - M3 V<BR>
Codes - Ni Po De<BR>
<BR>
If BtC is close or relatively close to this I'd appreciate someone being <BR>
able to tell me.  I like the idea here, of a very small world with no water <BR>
and yet millions of inhabitants :-) Oh the fun to be had!<BR>
<BR>
Thanks in advance,<BR>
<BR>
Peter<BR>
__________________________Peter J. Miller<BR>
thegolem@mindless.com        ICQ #5294589<BR>
<BR>
"Loneliness is not a phase..."<BR>
          - 'Angry Chair', Alice in Chains<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 23:33:33 -0800<BR>
From: "James W. Lindsay" <jlindsay@home.com><BR>
Subject: Re: TML Landgrab<BR>
<BR>
On Mon, 27 Mar 2000 23:20:22 -0500, Smith, Walter wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Whew.<BR>
> <BR>
> Looks like Behind the Claw did more information on each world than<BR>
> I thought. There's no way I can take part in this without buying the<BR>
> volume, I'll be working with a tenth the information everyone expects<BR>
> me to have. This project was interesting, but not twenty odd bucks<BR>
> interesting - especially with me saving up to get the rest of Mr.<BR>
> Gautney's JTAS High Guard articles.<BR>
<BR>
You don't have to *buy* it, just *browse* through it the next time you're<BR>
at your FLGS.  Heck, most worlds only contain a small paragraph anyway--<BR>
much of it extrapolated from the UPP/UWP data.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
James W. Lindsay             Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada<BR>
Website: http://members.home.net/jlindsay          ICQ: #7521644<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
Cat problem: being mistaken for Bill the cat.<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 12:03:38 +0200<BR>
From: Holger Kadlez <paradin@gmx.de><BR>
Subject: ACQ - how to get it ?<BR>
<BR>
Fellow sophonts,<BR>
<BR>
By now I have heared enough of above mentioned product <BR>
to make me _really_ interested.  Unfortunatly, one of<BR>
the biggest question remains unanswered for me:<BR>
   How and where to get it ?<BR>
<BR>
Please could a kind soul give me a hand here ?<BR>
<BR>
Tschau,<BR>
	Paradin<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<philosophical><BR>
  On the other hand, a truely kind soul might not want a <BR>
  not-so-kind-of-heart person as me to get my soon to be <BR>
  bloodied hands upon such kind of product, for the cruel-<BR>
  ties he might inflict upon all these unwitting NPC's ...<BR>
<\philosophical><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 20:53:00 +1000<BR>
From: "Katharine Whitchurch" <katts@globalfreeway.com.au><BR>
Subject: Expanded Point Defense rules<BR>
<BR>
Warning : some Ditzie speak present <in these brackets><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
A basic PD system is 60 kilos, 0.06 m3 and Cr 200 000 at TL9, plus the<BR>
sensor system and the weapon.<BR>
<BR>
There are 3 basic classes of threats point defense can defend against -<BR>
missiles/RAM grenades, artillery/RR rounds and CPR/Gauss rounds.<BR>
<BR>
Minimum tracked trajectory is measured from when the PD system picks up the<BR>
threat, to when it impacts.<BR>
<BR>
The first <slooow an an an delicate> have a minimum tracked trajectory of<BR>
100m, and need 10 kJ of weapon output to effectivly hit them.<BR>
<BR>
The second class <meeedium> have a minimum tracked distance of 500m, and<BR>
need 100 kJ of weapon output to terminate them as a threat.<BR>
<BR>
The third class <fast an an an tough an uuuusually real hurty if you miss><BR>
have a minimum tracked distance of 1500m, and need 1 MJ of weapon output to<BR>
prevent their effective impact.<BR>
<BR>
Minimum ranges fall by 20% for TL 10 PD systems, 40% for TL11 systems, up to<BR>
a maximum of 80% for TL13 systems.<BR>
<BR>
Class one targets are a Hard task at TL9, Average at TL10 and Easy at TL11.<BR>
<BR>
Class two targets are an Impossible task at TL9, Hard at TL10, Average at<BR>
TL11 etc<BR>
<BR>
Class Three targets are You-just-cant-do-it at TL9, Impossible at TL10, Hard<BR>
at TL11 etc.<BR>
<BR>
A PD system equivalent to that of a lower TL can be built at higher TLs for<BR>
2/3rds the cost and half the mass and volume per TL (eg a TL9-equivalent<BR>
system built at TL13 is 1/64th the mass and volume <1 kg> and 16/81 the<BR>
price (KCr 40) <weeeee alwaaaaaays put oneie-one of theeese on our Haaaapy<BR>
Funnie-wunnie Suuuits so so so you can zappity zap zap zap those RAAAAAAM<BR>
gwenades>). Note that systems built at a lower TL get the minimum tracked<BR>
trajectory of the lower TL, not the TL of construction.<BR>
<BR>
*******************************************************************<BR>
<BR>
OK, that should do over the CPR jockeys good and proper. Sure, a 200 mm KEAP<BR>
round will punch through virtually anything ... but with these rules, it<BR>
will never get there.<BR>
<BR>
This implies that TL8-9 will be dominated by missiles (especially if you<BR>
allow TL8 missiles to top attack), TL 10-11 by CPR guns and from TL12 and up<BR>
it's energy weapons of various types that dominate.<BR>
<BR>
Ian Whitchurch<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 22:51:40 +1200<BR>
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: Operation BRAG<BR>
<BR>
> On Behalf Of Karen and Michael Hughes<BR>
><BR>
> Well I just got Across the Bright Face/Mission on Mithril for $7.50 and<BR>
> Aliens of the Rim (Hiver and Ith something something race sourcebooks for<BR>
> TNE) for $28 Australian from my FL2ndhandGS<BR>
><BR>
> What do you think about them apples?<BR>
<BR>
Really ? Lets see, bring up the spreadsheet, I got AotR for $7.50 US,<BR>
including postage cost, as part of an E-Bay auction on the 10th January<BR>
<BR>
BTW, anyone want any 2300AD stuff ?<BR>
I just picked up about half the range from my local<BR>
FL2ndhandGS, only got it because there was a Starcruiser set in the pile.<BR>
I've also got about three copies of Kafer Dawn for various reasons.<BR>
<BR>
> Speaking of flag stuff, whilst leaving the library at our Tri-service<BR>
> military academy they were lowering the flag out the front. The WO blew a<BR>
> whistle and two students who'd been walking/chatting in front immeditaly<BR>
> went into attention mode until the whistle went again.<BR>
><BR>
> Is this a stock standard flag thing for Western (English<BR>
> Speaking) armies - or just an academy thing?<BR>
<BR>
Standard practice on RNZAF bases at least prior to 1991<BR>
<BR>
Though they said you didn't have to stop and stand to attention if you<BR>
couldn't<BR>
actually _see_ the flagpole. This was so that all the people in Group<BR>
Headquarters right next to the flagpole didn;t have to stop moving around<BR>
when the flag went down/up<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> Ob Trav; Does the empire have sunburt raising/lowering<BR>
> ceremonies? I'd like to see that - look a Groudn Forces cover!<BR>
<BR>
I suspect they do. It's hard to imagine a military service without some sort<BR>
of flag or other large sumbol and associated ceremony.<BR>
<BR>
Frankie<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 23:22:50 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Alien thoughts<BR>
<BR>
On 27 Mar 00, at 23:53, eris@pcola.gulf.net wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Nah, the oppossum is an American native. It ranges all over the two<BR>
> continents. Your opposum has a bushy tail, right?  Well, ours has a<BR>
> hairless tail and looks a lot like a very *very* large rat. <g> <BR>
<BR>
It's bushy on the top and sides, but the underside is naked and sticky <BR>
for clinging to trees.<BR>
<BR>
> >Our possums aren't technically omnivores, and I've never heard of them<BR>
> >hunting anything, but I've no doubt that if they were to find small  dead<BR>
> >things such as mice they'd eat them. Their favourite food is  things like<BR>
> >new rose buds, fresh friut tree leaves, etc. <BR>
> <BR>
> Ours are scavangers that will eat *anything* they can get. They eat grubs,<BR>
> worms, new leaves and buds, they'll take eggs and chicks when they can get<BR>
> at them, and will run the cats off the cat food given half a chance. <g><BR>
<BR>
Ours don't do that.<BR>
<BR>
> Do yours "play possum?" It gets them killed on the roads...they'll see the<BR>
> lights, and fall "dead" as a defence mechanism. It might work on natural<BR>
> preditors, but it just makes them road kill when up against cars.<BR>
<BR>
Nope, but like deer and rabbits they do tend to freeze in the light, <BR>
which results in a sort of thump noise.<BR>
<BR>
> >BTW it's a  bold cat that'll take on a possums, as their claws are very<BR>
> >long (for  >climbing trees) and they can disembowel a cat, <BR>
> <BR>
> Nice long teeth too. Have you ever "cornered" one?  Years ago, a possum<BR>
> was on our back porch stealing the cat's dinner when my sister surprised<BR>
> it. It backed into a corner, and let out a loud hiss and showed his teeth.<BR>
> Sister let out a howl, grabbed a broom and went to defend the cat. Here a<BR>
> poke, there a poke, everywhere a poke, poke...and eventually the possum<BR>
> ran off leaving a very badly chewed and scratched broom handle. <g><BR>
<BR>
Our ones have longish teeth, but they're like a mouse's or a Guinea <BR>
Pig's - chisel like insisors and not a lot else. They make fairly good <BR>
holes in the lips of careless dogs, though.<BR>
<BR>
> >...but dogs think they're  fine sport if they can<BR>
> >catch them on the ground. They also carry  hydatids and TB, so you have<BR>
> >to cook them well before eating them or  feeding them to your dogs.<BR>
> <BR>
> Yeah, the impression is that they are "dirty" animals. Eating them is<BR>
> really more of a joke than anything else...although it is done from time<BR>
> to time. Possum and sweet 'taters, you know! <g><BR>
<BR>
Our aren't "dirty" so much as rather smelly. Possums work pretty well <BR>
with Solo's comment in _Empire_ "And I thought they smelt bad on the <BR>
outside."<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
An pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 12:33:40 +0200<BR>
From: Volker Greimann <volker@greimann.de><BR>
Subject: Re: Counters list<BR>
<BR>
>"I wish I'd photocopied my counter sheets before I punched them." -Bruce<BR>
>Kirkaldy<BR>
<BR>
I usually scan mine in best quality just to be sure later on...<BR>
<BR>
- ---<BR>
Volker A. Greimann<BR>
greimann@geocities.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 12:40:19 +0200<BR>
From: Volker Greimann <volker@greimann.de><BR>
Subject: Re: EW & Black Curtain<BR>
<BR>
At 03:23 28.03.00, you wrote:<BR>
>In a message dated 3/27/00 11:48:04 AM !!!First Boot!!!, volker@greimann.de<BR>
>writes:<BR>
><BR>
><< Yup, like the former chancellor of Germany, Kohl, who took illegal<BR>
>  contributions to his parties funds and still refused to tell who gave those<BR>
>  contributions, because ha gave his word. The law says he has to tell.<BR>
>   >><BR>
><BR>
>Fine; then he goes to jail for the German equivelent of the American criminal<BR>
>charge of "Contempt of Court" or possibly "withholding evidence"...Honor AND<BR>
>justice are served...<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
So far, he hasnt been charged. But he would go down like that, if he were...<BR>
<BR>
- ---<BR>
Volker A. Greimann<BR>
greimann@geocities.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 06:52:38 -0500 (EST)<BR>
From: Dalton Spence <dalton.spence@hwcn.org><BR>
Subject: WANTED: GT Size Specs for Common Small Ships<BR>
<BR>
In GURPS vehicle design, spacedocks are typically twice the external<BR>
volume of the total tonnage they hold. This works well when ships<BR>
are roughly rectangular or cylindrical in shape, but breaks down<BR>
when their shapes become too irregular. Unfortunately according to<BR>
the diagrams and pictures I've seen, most Traveller ships fall into<BR>
the latter category. In order to design believable deck plans for<BR>
spacedocks and hangers that could contain most of the common small<BR>
ships (400 tons or less), I need their shoebox dimensions (length,<BR>
width and height). Are there any websites or FTP archives with this<BR>
information? If not, could someone please send me the canonical data<BR>
for the following ship classes from GURPS Traveller Appendix A?<BR>
<BR>
         *AUXILARY CRAFT*                    *LARGE SHIPS*<BR>
<BR>
Rampart and Iramda class Fighters   Sulieman 100-ton Scout/Courier<BR>
10-ton Launch and Lifeboat          Beowulf 200-ton Free Trader<BR>
20-ton Gig                          Empress Marva 200-ton Far Trader<BR>
30-ton Ship's Boat                  Vanderbilt 200-ton Yacht<BR>
40-ton Fuel Skimmer                 Lady of Shallot 200-ton Yacht<BR>
40-ton Pinnace                      Animal 200-ton Safari Ship<BR>
50-ton Modular Cutter (and modules) Dragon 400-ton SDB<BR>
100-ton Orbital Shuttle             Akkigish 400-ton Merchant<BR>
100-ton Interplanetary Shuttle<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
              @==================================================@<BR>
              | Dalton S. Spence, B.Sc. <dalton.spence@hwcn.org> |<BR>
              | Home Page: http://www.hwcn.org/~ag775/home.html  |<BR>
              |      Family Motto: Virtute Acquiritur Honos      |<BR>
              |    "Trade is the lifeblood of the Imperium."     |<BR>
              |   Cleon I, First Emperor of the Third Imperium   |<BR>
              |   Lex Luthor is the football; George Lucas was   |<BR>
              |         threatened by left field. FNORD!         |<BR>
              @==================================================@<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 08:11:57 +0100<BR>
From: Paul Campbell <kemitixanzantix@freenet.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: Contract Law 101<BR>
<BR>
On Tue, 28 Mar 2000, Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
> In mail you write:<BR>
> <BR>
> > How would tasks/favors/boons done for "free" translate it to "contracts" in<BR>
> > certain cultures in traveller. <BR>
> <BR>
> A culture that had gone overboard on Ayn Rand's philosophy (or certain<BR>
> types of "libertarian" philosophy) might well provide *anything* for<BR>
> free. Ask someone what time it is and get the response "That'll cost<BR>
> you a credit..."<BR>
<BR>
One short story I read many years ago was 'Any Then There Were None', from a<BR>
collection of the Golden Age (30s'/40's).  Sorry, I can't remember the author. <BR>
It tells the story of a 'navy' ship landing on some remote planet where they, I<BR>
think, need to make repairs before they can lift of again.  When they start<BR>
interacting with the locals in the nearby town, to buy supplies and stuff, they<BR>
are told they own an 'Ob'.  They planet had no currency other than an honour<BR>
based 'Obligation' currency.  One character repays an Ob by unloading some<BR>
boxes in the back yard for the shopkeeper.  Another is told to go see someone<BR>
else to whom the shopkeeper owes an Ob, transfering the Ob.<BR>
<BR>
One of the local does tell the story of how, a long time ago, one individual<BR>
tried to abuse this system by never repaying his Obs.  He was eventually hunted<BR>
down, after being run out of a number of towns, and strung up from a tree.<BR>
<BR>
Incase your wondering about the title, this society seemed to inspire a /very/<BR>
high desertion rate among the ships crew.<BR>
<BR>
All in all a fantastic story, one of the earliest space SFs I read.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Paul Campbell<BR>
kemitixanzantix@freenet.co.uk<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 00:03:56 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Contract Law 101<BR>
<BR>
On 28 Mar 00, at 8:11, Paul Campbell wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> On Tue, 28 Mar 2000, Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
> > In mail you write:<BR>
> > <BR>
> > > How would tasks/favors/boons done for "free" translate it to<BR>
> > > "contracts" in certain cultures in traveller. <BR>
> > <BR>
> > A culture that had gone overboard on Ayn Rand's philosophy (or certain<BR>
> > types of "libertarian" philosophy) might well provide *anything* for<BR>
> > free. Ask someone what time it is and get the response "That'll cost you<BR>
> > a credit..."<BR>
> <BR>
> One short story I read many years ago was 'Any Then There Were None', from<BR>
> a collection of the Golden Age (30s'/40's).  Sorry, I can't remember the<BR>
> author. It tells the story of a 'navy' ship landing on some remote planet<BR>
> where they, I think, need to make repairs before they can lift of again. <BR>
> When they start interacting with the locals in the nearby town, to buy<BR>
> supplies and stuff, they are told they own an 'Ob'.  They planet had no<BR>
> currency other than an honour based 'Obligation' currency.  One character<BR>
> repays an Ob by unloading some boxes in the back yard for the shopkeeper. <BR>
> Another is told to go see someone else to whom the shopkeeper owes an Ob,<BR>
> transfering the Ob.<BR>
<BR>
It was by Eric Frank Russell, and is/was part of a collection of <BR>
stories about a ship sent out from earth to recontact various planets.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
An pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2202<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2203</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
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Traveller-digest      Tuesday, March 28 2000      Volume 1999 : Number 2203<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Drop Tanks<BR>
RE: Making energy weapons work in FFS2<BR>
Re: Drop Tanks<BR>
Re: Robots in MT query<BR>
Re: Contract Law 101<BR>
Re: Stellar Data question...<BR>
Re: Black Curtain: MT revealed plotlines<BR>
Re: TML Landgrab<BR>
RL Gearhead Alert<BR>
Salutations and other matters<BR>
Nebula pix<BR>
Re: GRIP Traveller modules<BR>
Oooops! (was: RL Gearhead Alert)<BR>
Re: RL Gearhead Alert<BR>
Re: Black Curtain: MT revealed plotlines<BR>
Re: Stellar Data question-- can "habitable" worlds exist around M-V stars?<BR>
Re: Maps Page Updated<BR>
Re: EW & Black Curtain<BR>
Re: Traveller News Service<BR>
Re: Stellar Data question-- can "habitable" worlds exist around M-V stars?<BR>
Re: Traveller 3D maps and Computers at the game table<BR>
Re: WANTED: GT Size Specs for Common Small Ships<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 07:10:23 -0500<BR>
From: "Terry Carlino" <carlino@home.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Drop Tanks<BR>
<BR>
>At 11:26 AM -0800 3/27/00, Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella wrote:<BR>
>>Via electronic medium on 3/27/00 6:11 AM, Walter Smith SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU<BR>
>>issued forth:<BR>
>><BR>
>>  > We've got new people on the list, though, there are certainly ones who<BR>
>>  > haven't decided yet how jump tanks will work in their TU's.<BR>
>><BR>
>>Yes, and then somebody mentioned droptanks that went in jump with you to<BR>
>>provide fuel after jump-exit. I had never thought of that.<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
>Tanks that you take with you (and add to your displacement for<BR>
>that jump) aren't much of a problem.  It has been suggested that<BR>
>these are call "demountable" tanks....<BR>
<BR>
IMTU the difference between "drop tanks" and "demountable tanks" is one of<BR>
function and support. Drop tanks are intended to be jettisoned via either<BR>
explosive bolts or some other method that would propel them away from the<BR>
ship. In other words they can be used without support. Demountable tanks are<BR>
typically removed by a tug or other service craft. Drop tanks are more or<BR>
less single use. They are made of cheap materials. (They can be salvaged and<BR>
reused, but this is icing on the cake. They are not specifically designed<BR>
for reuse.) Demountable tanks are made of standard materials and are<BR>
designed for reuse. Drop tanks require special hardpoint mounts, Demountable<BR>
tanks require external cradles. So basically Drop tanks are only used by the<BR>
military or for special uses. And As I mentioned in previous posts the tanks<BR>
are used as described above; carried along through jump.<BR>
<BR>
Terry C<BR>
All that is Gold does not glitter<BR>
Not all who travel are lost<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 10:55:12 +0100<BR>
From: Matt Bond <MBOND@karpad.demon.co.uk><BR>
Subject: RE: Making energy weapons work in FFS2<BR>
<BR>
Ian Whitchurch wrote:<BR>
> My thinking is that point-defense weapons are mounted on <BR>
> ships at TL8, and<BR>
> tanks at TL9, so by about TL12 you should have point defense <BR>
> systems for<BR>
> individual troopers. Bascially, you have a helmet-mounted <BR>
> LADAR or other<BR>
> sensor systems (stuff coming out of gun barrels is hot - you <BR>
> should get away<BR>
> with a passive IR sensor, but I'll let Bruce answer that one <BR>
> definitivly)<BR>
> linked to a small helmet-mounted laser (I'm thinking about a <BR>
> 20 meter range)<BR>
> and it goes "zap" at anything aimed at the user.<BR>
><BR>
> I'll have to play with building a 2 kJ helmet mounted TL12 laser.<BR>
<BR>
Why bother? At those sorts of ranges and energy, anything explosive will<BR>
probably still damage you after the PD Laser sets it off, if it's<BR>
kinetic and is going to hit you, then the laser just turns it into<BR>
molten metal (if that) that's going to hit you...<BR>
<BR>
Does the targeting system only target projectiles whose trajectories<BR>
intersect the trooper? If yes, then pepper the ground around him with<BR>
grenades, after all, they aren't aimed *at* him.<BR>
<BR>
If they are proximity activated, then either overwhelm them with massed<BR>
full-auto, shotguns, bags of gravel, frag grenades etc (I assume that<BR>
there is a finite delay between PD shots as the laser recharges. Unless<BR>
these troopers have power stations on their backs, I can't see a<BR>
sustained ROF much over 100 shots per second, which already requires a<BR>
200kW generator. This ROF can readily be overwhelmed), or give up and<BR>
use high-energy or laser weapons against them.<BR>
<BR>
If they have a targetting threshold, to cut out stuff that can't<BR>
penetrate, then if the sensors only go by mass, ultra-light<BR>
hyper-velocity projectiles are the way to go. If the sensors rely on<BR>
velocity then grenades are back in, as until it explodes it's no<BR>
different to a rock of the same mass being hurled slowly at the target.<BR>
If it is a combination of mass and velocity, then there may be a window<BR>
for small, slow explosives. If not, get out the PGMP's and Lasers again.<BR>
<BR>
Failing that call in the ortillery.<BR>
<BR>
PD only works for ships an tanks because they can only effectively be<BR>
damaged by relatively large, high velocity projectiles. They can ignore<BR>
bullets and grenades. Troopers (even in BD) can't.<BR>
 <BR>
 <BR>
> By TL11 tank-mounted PD systems should be able to hit slower <BR>
> rounds (such as<BR>
> a medium-velocity 250 mm HEAP round), while by TL12-13 you <BR>
> should be able to<BR>
> zap a hyper velocity gauss gun round.<BR>
<BR>
Fair enough. I have no problem with that. But you just can't scale it<BR>
down for a trooper to be able to deal with the target rich environment<BR>
he inhabits. After all, most PD relies on breaking through a shell or<BR>
missiles casing to either cause the explosives or fuel inside to<BR>
prematurely detonate, or for stresses to tear the target apart into<BR>
harmless fragments. This doesn't work at a scaled down level.<BR>
<BR>
All IMHO, IMTU (TNE), YMMV<BR>
<BR>
Matt<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 07:57:39 -0500<BR>
From: "R.D. Elliott" <rde@ican.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Drop Tanks<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
>Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 00:14:48 -0800<BR>
>From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@worldnet.att.net><BR>
>Subject: Re: Drop Tanks<BR>
><BR>
>eris@pcola.gulf.net wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>> On 03/27/00 at 08:33 AM,  "J-Man" <j-man@iname.com> said:<BR>
>><BR>
>> >I can't believe the topic of Drop Tanks has come up yet again...This is<BR>
>> >utterly ludicrous.  :)<BR>
>><BR>
>> Can the "P" word be far behind? <g><BR>
><BR>
>Or or or..... Vilani cannibalism....<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
	Break out Uncle Vilaashii's Best BBQ Sauce(tm)..:)<BR>
<BR>
Roderick Darroch Elliott <rde@ican.net><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 13:04:48 -0700<BR>
From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@glja.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Robots in MT query<BR>
<BR>
Karen and Michael Hughes wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> Does anyone have any hard and fast rules for translating BOOK 8 Robots into<BR>
> MT Vehicle rules?<BR>
> <BR>
> Also does anyone understand Robot combat from book 8? I can't work out how<BR>
> much damage they can handle.<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
You probably saw this coming, but I'll say it anyway: I'm also<BR>
interested in this, since I run MT and recently acquired (nudge nudge<BR>
wink wink) Robots.<BR>
<BR>
Erwin<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 12:56:49 +0100<BR>
From: "Derrick Jones" <dojones.whitestar@btinternet.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Contract Law 101<BR>
<BR>
In response to:<BR>
>>several matters. Not that this is a problem, as Andy is one Froopy Dude!<BR>
<BR>
Dom Mooney wrote.....<BR>
>Err, can you translate that from the American to English?<BR>
<BR>
Err, Dom. Here if I hold the rock up like this, you can climb back underneath it.<BR>
Shame on you.........<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Derrick<BR>
<BR>
Derrick Jones<BR>
St Helens<BR>
Lancashire UK<BR>
http://www.btinternet.com/~dojones.whitestar<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 08:40:47 EST<BR>
From: Damage169@cs.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Stellar Data question...<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 3/28/00 6:07:13 AM Central Standard Time, James W. Lindsay <BR>
writes:<BR>
<BR>
> Now I know we had a lengthy discussion as to how high population, low tech<BR>
>  worlds could possibly exist in hostile environments like vacuum worlds, but<BR>
>  even vacuum worlds could exist within a habitable orbit to give life a<BR>
>  little help.  Anyone have any suggestions as to how, for example, 600,000<BR>
>  humans could survive using TL7 technology on a 1,600 km diameter rock with<BR>
>  negligible water or atmosphere (Zenopit/Jewell)-- *outside* the habitable<BR>
>  region of an M3-V star?  Either I have to fudge the data and say that this<BR>
>  tiny rock orbits v-e-r-y close to the star, or come up with something else.<BR>
>  <BR>
>  Any thoughts?<BR>
>  <BR>
<BR>
Consider the tiny rock to be the location of the system's main starport and <BR>
administrative center, with most of the population in either space colonies <BR>
like O'Neill cylinders or Bernoulli spheres. Not only does this cover where <BR>
the additional population is housed, it also provides area for their food <BR>
production.<BR>
<BR>
Another possibility is to remember that within a 50 mile (approx. 100 km) <BR>
radius of the main post office on Manhattan Island, New York City, there <BR>
lives over 20 million people. They live within only a mile of the surface of <BR>
the planet they live on. Given a 1600 km diameter rock in which to tunnel out <BR>
pressurized caverns and rooms, 600,000 people is almost an afterthought. <BR>
Since TL 7 is approximately where we are now, and we have records of people <BR>
staying in space aboard a TL 6-7 orbital platform ("Mir") for periods of over <BR>
a year. I see no problem supporting that many people for an extended period, <BR>
especially with extra-system support. The general tech level may be TL 7, but <BR>
given half-a-chance I would bet the life-support systems would be as advanced <BR>
as the system could afford (TL 10-11 at least).<BR>
<BR>
Other answers come to mind, yet these seem to me to be the most probable. YMMV<BR>
<BR>
Doug Grimes<BR>
"If it's stupid but it works, it isn't stupid."<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 07:54:22 -0600 (CST)<BR>
From: "Jason Kemp" <Jason.Kemp@tdh.state.tx.us><BR>
Subject: Re: Black Curtain: MT revealed plotlines<BR>
<BR>
Hyphen wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> The "Baddies From The Core" plotline - that is, who were the Primordials that<BR>
> were seen in "Knightfall".<BR>
<BR>
Hyphen,<BR>
<BR>
Is there any way I can get that info from you, either on list or via <BR>
private mail? I'd love to know more about the Primordials.<BR>
<BR>
Thanks,<BR>
Jason<BR>
<BR>
=============================<BR>
Jason Kemp, ADS Programmer IV<BR>
(512)458-7111 ext. 1+3375<BR>
Internet Address:  jason.kemp@tdh.state.tx.us<BR>
<BR>
Most computer virus and email alerts are hoaxes.  For more info, check out:<BR>
http://urbanlegends.miningco.com/culture/beliefs/urbanlegends/library/blhoax.htm<BR>
==============================<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 08:49:42 -0500<BR>
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU><BR>
Subject: Re: TML Landgrab<BR>
<BR>
James Lindsay wrote:<BR>
>You don't have to *buy* it, just *browse* through it the next time you're<BR>
>at your FLGS.  Heck, most worlds only contain a small paragraph <BR>
>anyway--much of it extrapolated from the UPP/UWP data.<BR>
<BR>
My FLGS is out of stock on this particular item. Besides, I'd have<BR>
to browse through it until I I'd eliminated all but one of my "candidates",<BR>
browse through it again to make sure the world I picked wasn't already<BR>
grabbed, browse through it more thoroughly to get a feel for how the<BR>
worlds around it relate to it once I've chosen it - which may lead me<BR>
into rejecting a world, and starting over...<BR>
<BR>
That's too much browsing, in my way of thinking, for a casual look-see<BR>
on a game store shelf. If I'm going to put that much wear on a book<BR>
I'd better be buying it.<BR>
<BR>
I don't know, though, maybe I'm being too picky. Maybe I should just<BR>
pick an interesting UPP out of my Supplement 3, and ask the TML for<BR>
BtC/SMC data. The amount of info I *don't* have is a bit overwhelming.<BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 08:11:32 -0600<BR>
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: RL Gearhead Alert<BR>
<BR>
I just read this story on the AP page.  It deals with the particle<BR>
collider at Brookhaven National Laboratory.<BR>
<BR>
[note:  the URL is very long, so you may have to cut 'n' paste]<BR>
<BR>
http://wire.ap.org/APnews/center_package.html?FRONTID=SCIENCE&PACKAGEID=timemachine&STORYID=APIS73DSOL80<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
BTW, note that they use _gold_ as the source material.... ;-)<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 12:07:55 +1000<BR>
From: "Karen and Michael Hughes" <kmhughes@dynamite.com.au><BR>
Subject: Salutations and other matters<BR>
<BR>
> > Well I just got Across the Bright Face/Mission on Mithril for $7.50 and<BR>
> > Aliens of the Rim (Hiver and Ith something something race sourcebooks<BR>
for<BR>
> > TNE) for $28 Australian from my FL2ndhandGS<BR>
> ><BR>
> > What do you think about them apples?<BR>
><BR>
> Really ? Lets see, bring up the spreadsheet, I got AotR for $7.50 US,<BR>
> including postage cost, as part of an E-Bay auction on the 10th January<BR>
><BR>
<cue Homer> You dirty B.....<BR>
<BR>
Me impressed. Unfortunately said friendly store knows what as die hards<BR>
types will pay - I did have to go back and correct the nice lady after she<BR>
over charged - but hey accidents happen.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> BTW, anyone want any 2300AD stuff ?<BR>
> I just picked up about half the range from my local<BR>
> FL2ndhandGS, only got it because there was a Starcruiser set in the pile.<BR>
> I've also got about three copies of Kafer Dawn for various reasons.<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
Lemmie guess - the Hampton?<BR>
<BR>
> > Speaking of flag stuff, whilst leaving the library at our Tri-service<BR>
> > military academy they were lowering the flag out the front. The WO blew<BR>
a<BR>
> > whistle and two students who'd been walking/chatting in front immeditaly<BR>
> > went into attention mode until the whistle went again.<BR>
> ><BR>
> > Is this a stock standard flag thing for Western (English<BR>
> > Speaking) armies - or just an academy thing?<BR>
><BR>
> Standard practice on RNZAF bases at least prior to 1991<BR>
><BR>
> Though they said you didn't have to stop and stand to attention if you<BR>
> couldn't<BR>
> actually _see_ the flagpole. This was so that all the people in Group<BR>
> Headquarters right next to the flagpole didn;t have to stop moving around<BR>
> when the flag went down/up<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
They could see it - though trees were in the way - does that count?<BR>
<BR>
Russell Offices (Aust Defence Dept HQ) is a no hat zone inside - but when<BR>
you leave the foyer - it's on for young and old. I was at the mil academy<BR>
for some changing of the guard speech and all these officers - mostly<BR>
MAJ(E)+ up to one stars came pouring out of the hall just as this poor<BR>
middie came past. Never seen so much saluting from one person in my entire<BR>
life. A bunch of other cadets were about twenty feet back who upon seeing Mr<BR>
Vickers-machine-gun-like saluting man abruptly turned and marched off at<BR>
speed.<BR>
<BR>
Funn-ee.<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
> > Ob Trav; Does the empire have sunburt raising/lowering<BR>
> > ceremonies? I'd like to see that - look a Groudn Forces cover!<BR>
><BR>
> I suspect they do. It's hard to imagine a military service without some<BR>
sort<BR>
> of flag or other large sumbol and associated ceremony.<BR>
><BR>
> Frankie<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
Ceremony is part of the parcel of a good 'loyal to the state' soldier IMHO.<BR>
<BR>
SEC: Michael<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 09:14:11 -0500<BR>
From: "Sword-Worlder" <swordworlder@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Nebula pix<BR>
<BR>
Fellow citizens,<BR>
<BR>
I am in need of an image of a red nebula.  It needs to be fairly bright and<BR>
contrasty.  It is to be the background for an ad banner, so I'll need use<BR>
permission, as well.  Any ideas?<BR>
<BR>
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^<BR>
Colin Michael, WebDev<BR>
www.downport.com<BR>
The Traveller Domain<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 09:20:41 -0500<BR>
From: "Sword-Worlder" <swordworlder@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: GRIP Traveller modules<BR>
<BR>
I ordered this in January and received a notice in February that the release<BR>
was postponed until 3/31/00.  I'll make a full report if the stuff arrives.<BR>
<BR>
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^<BR>
Colin Michael, WebDev<BR>
www.downport.com<BR>
The Traveller Domain<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: Luther Martin <martin@ksarul.com><BR>
> I noticed that two GRIP (http://www.rpgrealms.com/Traveller/) modules are<BR>
> available for CT: The Kinunir, and Research Station Gamma. Has anyone seen<BR>
> these? Good? Bad?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 08:44:12 -0600<BR>
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: Oooops! (was: RL Gearhead Alert)<BR>
<BR>
Black ICE wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> I just read this story on the AP page.  It deals with the particle<BR>
> collider at Brookhaven National Laboratory.<BR>
<BR>
Sorry if you can't get the article this way (after I sent my post, I<BR>
logged off, rebooted, and then couldn't get to the article using the<BR>
posted URL).<BR>
<BR>
Maybe going to the AP home page, then searching from there will work:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
http://wire.ap.org/<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<<snip>><BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 08:47:38 -0600<BR>
From: Stormhound <stormhnd@fidnet.com><BR>
Subject: Re: RL Gearhead Alert<BR>
<BR>
Black ICE wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> I just read this story on the AP page.  It deals with the particle<BR>
> collider at Brookhaven National Laboratory.<BR>
<BR>
> BTW, note that they use _gold_ as the source material.... ;-)<BR>
<BR>
    Interestingly enough, I believe that's the experiment that Gregory Benford mentioned as going on there<BR>
in his recent sci-fi novel "Cosm".  (It's a similar experiment using a different element that forms the<BR>
basis of his novel.)<BR>
    There's realism in sci-fi, and then there's *realism*.  (I recommend the novel to anyone who actually<BR>
finds scientific investigation interesting...there's some "action" in spots, but it's basically about<BR>
unraveling a scientific mystery.)<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
Stormhound<BR>
DNRC Ombudsman for Induhvidual Affairs, Holder of Past Knowledge<BR>
Come visit my web page at http://www.fidnet.com/~stormhnd<BR>
Or my new Amateur Radio web page at http://www.qsl.net/kc0ekv<BR>
Or my JN6 course design page at http://www.fidnet.com/~stormhnd/golfpage.htm<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 16:14:21 +0100<BR>
From: Paul Campbell <kemitixanzantix@freenet.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: Black Curtain: MT revealed plotlines<BR>
<BR>
On Tue, 28 Mar 2000, Jason Kemp wrote:<BR>
> Hyphen wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> > The "Baddies From The Core" plotline - that is, who were the Primordials that<BR>
> > were seen in "Knightfall".<BR>
> <BR>
> Hyphen,<BR>
> <BR>
> Is there any way I can get that info from you, either on list or via <BR>
> private mail? I'd love to know more about the Primordials.<BR>
> <BR>
> Thanks,<BR>
> Jason<BR>
<BR>
I'd be interested as well.  If you send it by email, could I get a copy?  If<BR>
you post it to the list thats good too :)<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Paul Campbell<BR>
kemitixanzantix@freenet.co.uk<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 10:38:55 EST<BR>
From: JFZeigler@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Stellar Data question-- can "habitable" worlds exist around M-V stars?<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 3/28/00 2:40:22 AM Eastern Standard Time, <BR>
jlindsay@home.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
> Now I know we had a lengthy discussion as to how high population, low tech<BR>
>  worlds could possibly exist in hostile environments like vacuum worlds, but<BR>
>  even vacuum worlds could exist within a habitable orbit to give life a<BR>
>  little help.  Anyone have any suggestions as to how, for example, 600,000<BR>
>  humans could survive using TL7 technology on a 1,600 km diameter rock with<BR>
>  negligible water or atmosphere (Zenopit/Jewell)-- *outside* the habitable<BR>
>  region of an M3-V star?  Either I have to fudge the data and say that this<BR>
>  tiny rock orbits v-e-r-y close to the star, or come up with something else.<BR>
<BR>
In _First In_ I ued a rule that allowed for a much wider variety in orbit<BR>
placement.  Orbits used a modified Bode-Titius sequence which didn't<BR>
come out the same way each time -- and for very small stars the<BR>
innermost orbit had a very good chance of falling within the life zone.<BR>
The rule in Book 6 was simple and playable, but a bit too "grainy"<BR>
and inflexible.<BR>
<BR>
(Almost all such worlds end up tide-locked or resonant, but that's another<BR>
problem.)<BR>
<BR>
- ----------<BR>
Jon F. Zeigler: Mathematician, computer geek, amateur historian, freelance<BR>
writer, occasional scribbler of bad poetry<BR>
"For any statement, no matter how innocuous, there exists a nonempty<BR>
set of people who will take offense at it."<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 17:19:41 +0200<BR>
From: Ingo Heinscher <Hiroshi.Estigarribia@gmx.de><BR>
Subject: Re: Maps Page Updated<BR>
<BR>
At 10:37 28.03.00 +1000, david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>The Sol Rim was generated with an algorithm that produced higher<BR>
populations and<BR>
>a more homogeneous TL spread.<BR>
<BR>
Is that an "inside publisher" information? (Was it GDW or DGP?)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
"This was not meant to be an aggresssion against the Siru Zirka. But we had<BR>
to organize our affairs a bit more efficiently. To be honest, we have had<BR>
to do this for almost 300 years by now."<BR>
unknown Terran politician, -2398 Imp<BR>
;-) ingo heinscher <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 17:21:58 +0200<BR>
From: Ingo Heinscher <Hiroshi.Estigarribia@gmx.de><BR>
Subject: Re: EW & Black Curtain<BR>
<BR>
At 20:23 27.03.00 EST, Sethkimmel@aol.com wrote:<BR>
>In a message dated 3/27/00 11:48:04 AM !!!First Boot!!!, volker@greimann.de <BR>
>writes:<BR>
><BR>
><< Yup, like the former chancellor of Germany, Kohl, who took illegal <BR>
> contributions to his parties funds and still refused to tell who gave those <BR>
> contributions, because ha gave his word. The law says he has to tell.<BR>
>  >><BR>
><BR>
>Fine; then he goes to jail for the German equivelent of the American<BR>
criminal <BR>
>charge of "Contempt of Court" or possibly "withholding evidence"...Honor AND <BR>
>justice are served...<BR>
<BR>
Unfortunately, it is not that simple in German law, AFAIK. <BR>
<BR>
>Ob Trav: this is obvious. A noble PC gives his/her word despite the <BR>
>repercussions...<BR>
<BR>
:-)<BR>
Helmut hault-Kohl II?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
"This was not meant to be an aggresssion against the Siru Zirka. But we had<BR>
to organize our affairs a bit more efficiently. To be honest, we have had<BR>
to do this for almost 300 years by now."<BR>
unknown Terran politician, -2398 Imp<BR>
;-) ingo heinscher <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 17:45:58 +0200<BR>
From: Ingo Heinscher <Hiroshi.Estigarribia@gmx.de><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller News Service<BR>
<BR>
At 00:26 28.03.00 -0800, Evyn MacDude wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>webmaster@sjgames.com wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>> Scandia/Solomani Rim<BR>
>><BR>
>> Scandia/Solomani Rim                  119-1117<BR>
>> Received 120-1117<BR>
>> A cross-border courier arrived today with word of a major development<BR>
within the Solomani Confederation. The planet Kukulcan has declared itself<BR>
a sovereign and independent world, severing all ties with the Solomani<BR>
central government. The Confederation's response is unknown at this time.<BR>
><BR>
>Cool....<BR>
><BR>
>As a member of the Confed I'm moving here to help in the rebellion.<BR>
<BR>
You shouldn't. IIRC the gouvernment of Kukulcan changed to military<BR>
dictatorship last year... :-)<BR>
<BR>
BTW: Could this be part of the plot that Loren has worked out for The New<BR>
TimeLine? Not the Imperium shatters, but the Superimani Confederation? Or<BR>
parts of it?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
"This was not meant to be an aggresssion against the Siru Zirka. But we had<BR>
to organize our affairs a bit more efficiently. To be honest, we have had<BR>
to do this for almost 300 years by now."<BR>
unknown Terran politician, -2398 Imp<BR>
;-) ingo heinscher <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 17:43:18 +0200<BR>
From: Ingo Heinscher <Hiroshi.Estigarribia@gmx.de><BR>
Subject: Re: Stellar Data question-- can "habitable" worlds exist around M-V stars?<BR>
<BR>
At 23:33 27.03.00 -0800, James W. Lindsay wrote:<BR>
[snip]<BR>
>Now I know we had a lengthy discussion as to how high population, low tech<BR>
>worlds could possibly exist in hostile environments like vacuum worlds, but<BR>
>even vacuum worlds could exist within a habitable orbit to give life a<BR>
>little help.  Anyone have any suggestions as to how, for example, 600,000<BR>
>humans could survive using TL7 technology on a 1,600 km diameter rock with<BR>
>negligible water or atmosphere (Zenopit/Jewell)-- *outside* the habitable<BR>
>region of an M3-V star?  Either I have to fudge the data and say that this<BR>
>tiny rock orbits v-e-r-y close to the star, or come up with something else.<BR>
><BR>
>Any thoughts?<BR>
<BR>
TL7? No problem. Underground colony, mining gas ices for atmosphere and<BR>
using fission plants for power supply. Won't be a very healthy population,<BR>
though.<BR>
<BR>
Of course, one would have to find an explanation why they ever moved there...<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
"This was not meant to be an aggresssion against the Siru Zirka. But we had<BR>
to organize our affairs a bit more efficiently. To be honest, we have had<BR>
to do this for almost 300 years by now."<BR>
unknown Terran politician, -2398 Imp<BR>
;-) ingo heinscher <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 17:17:51 +0200<BR>
From: Ingo Heinscher <Hiroshi.Estigarribia@gmx.de><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller 3D maps and Computers at the game table<BR>
<BR>
At 15:44 27.03.00 PST, Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
[snip]<BR>
>> And one schould not forget that the practical size for a "real" or "hard"<BR>
>> model should be roughly at subsector level. Now id you want your campaign t<BR>
>> take place in _several_ subsectors, possibly arranged in a cube, complexity<BR>
>> of the task increases again, especially for making up trans-subsector jump<BR>
>> routes.<BR>
><BR>
>But if you figure the size of a "subsector" in terms of number of<BR>
>*systems*, then a 3d subsectr isn't all that big. The maps in both SPIs<BR>
>"Starforce: Alpha Centauri" and in 2300 AD have several *sectors* worth<BR>
>of systems, and are only about 25 light years (8 parsecs!) in radius.<BR>
<BR>
Absolutely true. But imagine a model with more than 50 stars... It wouldn't<BR>
be very helpful for play, I suppose. <BR>
<BR>
>>>> Ooh. No, a computer at the game table is IMHO the best way to split your<BR>
>>>> player's attention. I wouldn't do that. Really.<BR>
>>><BR>
>>>Depends on the computer. And how it is used.<BR>
>><BR>
>> :) <BR>
>> Well, I would want the computers to run a multi-user OS like Linux or NT.<BR>
>> Or some OS with Novell with the GM's machine as server...<BR>
><BR>
>I'm *running* a Novell server, with a 10-user license. And I plan on<BR>
>adding a Linux box. :-)<BR>
<BR>
And you are planning to restrict access to the astrogation program and the<BR>
few other the players will need? <BR>
<BR>
>> anyway, the<BR>
>> effort required to install and configure the machines is not to be taken<BR>
>> lightly.<BR>
><BR>
>As I noted, I currently have 3 systems on the LAN. And plan to add more.<BR>
<BR>
So no problem there. Why don't I like the idea anyway?<BR>
Conservatism?<BR>
<BR>
[snip]<BR>
>Well, part of my idea was solving the old problem of different<BR>
>characters being able to notice ("see") different things in the<BR>
>dungeon. <BR>
><BR>
>That's not an issue in traveller. Still, some older PDAs might be a<BR>
>useful item. Have them set up to be "consoles" and "data terminals for<BR>
>when characters need to check something.<BR>
<BR>
Mhm, that directs your session towards LARP. What if you have a player with<BR>
absolutely no idea about computers who plays a computer tech? Or the other<BR>
way round?<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
"This was not meant to be an aggresssion against the Siru Zirka. But we had<BR>
to organize our affairs a bit more efficiently. To be honest, we have had<BR>
to do this for almost 300 years by now."<BR>
unknown Terran politician, -2398 Imp<BR>
;-) ingo heinscher <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 17:48:15 +0200<BR>
From: Ingo Heinscher <Hiroshi.Estigarribia@gmx.de><BR>
Subject: Re: WANTED: GT Size Specs for Common Small Ships<BR>
<BR>
At 06:52 28.03.00 -0500, Dalton Spence wrote:<BR>
[snip]<BR>
<If not, could someone please send me the canonical data<BR>
>for the following ship classes from GURPS Traveller Appendix A?<BR>
><BR>
>         *AUXILARY CRAFT*                    *LARGE SHIPS*<BR>
><BR>
>Rampart and Iramda class Fighters   Sulieman 100-ton Scout/Courier<BR>
>10-ton Launch and Lifeboat          Beowulf 200-ton Free Trader<BR>
>20-ton Gig                          Empress Marva 200-ton Far Trader<BR>
>30-ton Ship's Boat                  Vanderbilt 200-ton Yacht<BR>
>40-ton Fuel Skimmer                 Lady of Shallot 200-ton Yacht<BR>
>40-ton Pinnace                      Animal 200-ton Safari Ship<BR>
>50-ton Modular Cutter (and modules) Dragon 400-ton SDB<BR>
>100-ton Orbital Shuttle             Akkigish 400-ton Merchant<BR>
>100-ton Interplanetary Shuttle<BR>
<BR>
A lot of these ships have published deck plans somewhere (some of them in<BR>
GT istself). They should do, I think.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
"This was not meant to be an aggresssion against the Siru Zirka. But we had<BR>
to organize our affairs a bit more efficiently. To be honest, we have had<BR>
to do this for almost 300 years by now."<BR>
unknown Terran politician, -2398 Imp<BR>
;-) ingo heinscher <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2203<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2204</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
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Traveller-digest      Tuesday, March 28 2000      Volume 1999 : Number 2204<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Stellar Data question-- can "habitable" worlds existaround M-V  stars?<BR>
RE: can "habitable" worlds exist around M-V stars?<BR>
Re: Stellar Data question...<BR>
RE: Nebula pix<BR>
Re: Another map update<BR>
Landgrab: Cannoniacal Data on Thanber<BR>
Grav-powered floating cities?<BR>
Re: ACQ - how to get it ?<BR>
Re: Grav-powered floating cities?<BR>
Re: can "habitable" worlds exist around M-V stars?<BR>
RE: Grav-powered floating cities?<BR>
Re: Stellar Data question-- can "habitable" worlds exist around M-V stars?<BR>
Re: Grav-powered floating cities?<BR>
Re: Grav-powered floating cities?<BR>
Grav Powered Floating Cities<BR>
RE: Grav Powered Floating Cities<BR>
Re: Landgrab: Notes on building Heya<BR>
Re: Drop Tanks<BR>
Off list for a while.<BR>
RE: Fencing in Traveller<BR>
RE: Nebula pix<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 18:10:50 +0200<BR>
From: Holger Kadlez <paradin@gmx.de><BR>
Subject: Re: Stellar Data question-- can "habitable" worlds existaround M-V  stars?<BR>
<BR>
Ingo Heinscher wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> At 23:33 27.03.00 -0800, James W. Lindsay wrote:<BR>
> [snip]<BR>
> >Now I know we had a lengthy discussion as to how high population, low tech<BR>
> >worlds could possibly exist in hostile environments like vacuum worlds, but<BR>
> >even vacuum worlds could exist within a habitable orbit to give life a<BR>
> >little help.  Anyone have any suggestions as to how, for example, 600,000<BR>
> >humans could survive using TL7 technology on a 1,600 km diameter rock with<BR>
> >negligible water or atmosphere (Zenopit/Jewell)-- *outside* the habitable<BR>
> >region of an M3-V star?  Either I have to fudge the data and say that this<BR>
> >tiny rock orbits v-e-r-y close to the star, or come up with something else.<BR>
> ><BR>
> >Any thoughts?<BR>
<BR>
I for myself (or: for MTU) feel often quite happy to deviate from <BR>
canon in those cases, especially when a world with a not really <BR>
large population is not that far of of a world with a higher TL is<BR>
not so far of, and the area is settled for quite some time.<BR>
<BR>
 <BR>
> TL7? No problem. Underground colony, mining gas ices for atmosphere and<BR>
> using fission plants for power supply. Won't be a very healthy population,<BR>
> though.<BR>
<BR>
Import some fusion power plants, or use big solar power plants.<BR>
<BR>
 <BR>
> Of course, one would have to find an explanation why they ever moved there...<BR>
<BR>
They diddn't. But some of their enterprising ancestors did, some <BR>
(potentially long) time ago, maybe during or, even better, before <BR>
the long night. The following generations were just unable to uphold <BR>
their TL, for whatever reasons. Hard Times or Survival margin might<BR>
prove helpfull.<BR>
<BR>
Bye,<BR>
	Paradin<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 11:17:01 -0500<BR>
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca><BR>
Subject: RE: can "habitable" worlds exist around M-V stars?<BR>
<BR>
James Lindsay writes:<BR>
>This question has always bothered me, ever since Book 6: Scouts came out.<BR>
>The tables in Book 6 show that a large majority of stars generated using<BR>
>this system are M-type stars with a luminescent class of V.  According to<BR>
>the orbit zone table for class V stars, only M0-type stars have any hope of<BR>
>having a habitable orbit.<BR>
<snipped><BR>
>Thankfully, TNE noticed this problem and provided a small footnote on page<BR>
>192 beneath the "Primary Star Type and Size" table:<BR>
<snipped><BR>
>This shifts the table down quite a bit, with F-type stars now being<BR>
the majority.<BR>
<snipped><BR>
<BR>
	The inflated number of F-type stars may be unrealistic (does somebody<BR>
	know the relative abundance that we should find?), but then the<BR>
	frequency of Atm 2-9 is probably unrealistic also.<BR>
<BR>
>Now I know we had a lengthy discussion as to how high population, low tech<BR>
>worlds could possibly exist in hostile environments like vacuum worlds, but<BR>
>even vacuum worlds could exist within a habitable orbit to give life a<BR>
>little help.<BR>
<BR>
	I'm not sure that being in the "habitable zone" will help you all that<BR>
	much if you are on a vacuum world.  Sure, the heat/cold will be a<BR>
	problem if you are in the inner/outer zones, but living on an airless<BR>
	world would seem to be the biggest challenge.<BR>
<BR>
>Anyone have any suggestions as to how, for example, 600,000<BR>
>humans could survive using TL7 technology on a 1,600 km diameter rock with<BR>
>negligible water or atmosphere (Zenopit/Jewell)-- *outside* the habitable<BR>
>region of an M3-V star?  Either I have to fudge the data and say that this<BR>
>tiny rock orbits v-e-r-y close to the star, or come up with something else.<BR>
>Any thoughts?<BR>
<BR>
	Are you using CT TLs?  At TL 7 in CT, survival on such a planet should<BR>
	not be a big problem: fission power using cheap (locally produced)<BR>
	fuel, an economy based on export of fissionables (Ni classification),<BR>
	H20 and air largely from ice found insystem (belters), careful<BR>
	recycling (what are the government type and law level?), hydroponics<BR>
	provide some food but much is imported (Na classification, IIRC).<BR>
<BR>
	I don't know the other TL systems, but a lower tech society on this<BR>
	world may be descended from higher tech colonists.  Imagine that<BR>
	the city domes were built long ago by TL 9 colonists who established<BR>
	the mines.  The colony was not prosperous, but managed to hang on by<BR>
	being frugal: most high-tech equipment has been sold/abandoned.<BR>
	Animals brought for the zoo/park dome (in the optimistic days) are<BR>
	now used to pull mining buggies.  Travel between domes is strictly<BR>
	through connecting mine shafts.  The zoo/park dome is now a farm, but<BR>
	most food is imported.  Many areas are empty.  Life is simple, and<BR>
	effectively CT TL 4, but a limited amount of higher tech is available.<BR>
	In particular, a small fusion power plant in each operating dome<BR>
	provides heat and operates life support systems.  A limited number of<BR>
	technical personel, often from off-planet, maintain the high tech<BR>
	systems.  They have a few vacc suits, maybe an ATV.  The average<BR>
	citizens (and any visiting PCs) have little or no access to TL 5+<BR>
	equipment, ammunition, repairs, etc., thus the world is classified as<BR>
	TL 4.<BR>
<BR>
Peez<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 11:28:01 -0500<BR>
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca><BR>
Subject: Re: Stellar Data question...<BR>
<BR>
Doug Grimes writes:<BR>
<snipped><BR>
>Another possibility is to remember that within a 50 mile (approx. 100 km) <BR>
>radius of the main post office on Manhattan Island, New York City, there <BR>
>lives over 20 million people.<BR>
<snipped><BR>
<BR>
	I hope that you will forgive me for picking a nit, but 50 miles is<BR>
	only a little closer to 100 km than it is to 50 km (it is 80 km).<BR>
<BR>
>"If it's stupid but it works, it isn't stupid."<BR>
<BR>
	Does that include me?  Some people have called me stupid, but I work...<BR>
<BR>
:)<BR>
Peez<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 08:31:37 -0800<BR>
From: Jesse DeGraff <jdegraff@pacbell.net><BR>
Subject: RE: Nebula pix<BR>
<BR>
If you can use a piece of existing artwork, then you have permission to use,<BR>
cut, paste, hack, whatever, the image at:<BR>
<BR>
http://www.vision-forge-graphics.com/jesse/traveller/jorys_bg.htm<BR>
<BR>
with the usual caveat somewhere.  If the banner is linking to your site,<BR>
then mention there is fine.<BR>
<BR>
Best,<BR>
Jesse<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of<BR>
> Sword-Worlder<BR>
> Sent: Tuesday, March 28, 2000 6:14 AM<BR>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> Subject: Nebula pix<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> Fellow citizens,<BR>
><BR>
> I am in need of an image of a red nebula.  It needs to be fairly<BR>
> bright and<BR>
> contrasty.  It is to be the background for an ad banner, so I'll need use<BR>
> permission, as well.  Any ideas?<BR>
><BR>
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^<BR>
> Colin Michael, WebDev<BR>
> www.downport.com<BR>
> The Traveller Domain<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 10:43:21 -0600 (CST)<BR>
From: Steven Bonneville <bonnevil@ima.umn.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Another map update<BR>
<BR>
Anthony Jackson wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Comments on areas which still seem off?<BR>
<BR>
The "La" allegiance worlds in Antares are the original League of Antares;<BR>
they could be considered an Imperial autonomous region like the VAD is in<BR>
the Rim.<BR>
<BR>
The blue cluster in Deneb subsector H is all Imperial in 1115.<BR>
<BR>
I've got the older data for Lishun and Deneb, but you've fixed or can fix<BR>
that.<BR>
<BR>
I haven't been able to dig up my complete copy of Trojan Reach corrected <BR>
for 1115 yet.  I did find a list of UWPs for the 56 Imperial worlds in the <BR>
sector before the Aslan invasion, which I've sent outside the list.  <BR>
<BR>
Off on a tangent, James Lindsay asked:<BR>
<BR>
> I was flipping through the Regency Sourcebook and came upon a solitary<BR>
> reference for Zircon/Jewell-- a "J" type military base.  I can find no<BR>
> mention of it anywhere and do not believe it to be a typo.  Does errata<BR>
> exist for this book anywhere?<BR>
<BR>
A type-J base is "Non-Imperial Naval Base"; it's a generic non-Imperial<BR>
naval base for governments that don't get their own naval base codes<BR>
(like the type-Z "Zhodani Naval Base").  Sometimes it's referred to as<BR>
a "Vargr Naval Base", but it applies in general.   <BR>
<BR>
Errata exists on the web, don't have a URL handy.<BR>
  <BR>
  -- Steve Bonneville<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 09:54:35 -0700<BR>
From: Jason Postma <JasonP@i-link.net><BR>
Subject: Landgrab: Cannoniacal Data on Thanber<BR>
<BR>
I'm doing Thanber (0717/Querion) for the landgrab.  I have BTC and the T:NE<BR>
Regency Sourcebook, but I don't have the Traveller Adventure, Fifth Frontier<BR>
War, or the original SM book.  Anyone know if there are any refrences to<BR>
Thanber in any of those sources?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 19:09:37 +0200<BR>
From: Ingo Heinscher <Hiroshi.Estigarribia@gmx.de><BR>
Subject: Grav-powered floating cities?<BR>
<BR>
Hi!<BR>
<BR>
I' ve found several references to grav-powered floating cities on High-Tech<BR>
worlds in Traveller. <BR>
<BR>
My question is:<BR>
<BR>
Why? I mean, why should anyone build such a city? Every technology can<BR>
fail, so it's an additional source for desasters. Plus it's not easy to<BR>
walk to a suburb...<BR>
<BR>
I can imagine it _could_ be good for a gas.giant settlement, but then again<BR>
it would probably be cheaper to build an orbital facility and send special<BR>
craft for the actual work, whatever ist is.<BR>
<BR>
Any suggestions, perhaps even canon sources out there?<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
"This was not meant to be an aggresssion against the Siru Zirka. But we had<BR>
to organize our affairs a bit more efficiently. To be honest, we have had<BR>
to do this for almost 300 years by now."<BR>
unknown Terran politician, -2398 Imp<BR>
;-) ingo heinscher <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 09:22:42<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: ACQ - how to get it ?<BR>
<BR>
At 12:03 PM 3/28/2000 +0200, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>By now I have heared enough of above mentioned product <BR>
>to make me _really_ interested.  Unfortunatly, one of<BR>
>the biggest question remains unanswered for me:<BR>
>   How and where to get it ?<BR>
<BR>
Cha-ching!<BR>
<BR>
Currently, ACQ is going through it's final tweaks, better known as the<BR>
"four guys going 'D'oh!' simultaneously" phase.<BR>
<BR>
It will be avalible from thise nice people at BITS, and hopefully from<BR>
Steve Jackson in the US.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 11:31:47 -0600<BR>
From: Stormhound <stormhnd@fidnet.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Grav-powered floating cities?<BR>
<BR>
Ingo Heinscher wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Why? I mean, why should anyone build such a city? Every technology can<BR>
> fail, so it's an additional source for desasters.<BR>
<BR>
    Using that logic, I'd have to propose tearing down New Orleans, most any<BR>
city in California or Japan, depopulating a goodly section of Holland...and we<BR>
should probably tear down all the skyscrapers while we're at it, along with<BR>
bridges.  And we'll get rid of trains, planes, and automobiles (along with any<BR>
means of transportation built by Famille Spofulam).<BR>
<BR>
    The answer is simple: there has to be something there to make it<BR>
worthwhile.  What that something is, is up to you.  Perhaps it's some rare<BR>
natural resource, and the native plant life exudes a corrosive sap that would<BR>
destroy ground buildings.  Perhaps it's the view from just that perfect height<BR>
which is a source of religious ecstasy to the sect that controls the planet.<BR>
Perhaps it's owned by a group of radical environmentalists, and they don't wish<BR>
to sully the planet by setting foot on it.  Perhaps the people simply evolved<BR>
wings so that they wouldn't have to walk on the ground on their, you know,<BR>
whatchamacallits (in which case you should check for giant statues of Arthur<BR>
Dent, and archaeologists named Lintilla).<BR>
<BR>
    Hmmm.  You'd think that someday I'd get smart enough to write this stuff<BR>
for JTAS and actually get paid for it. (g)<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
Stormhound<BR>
DNRC Ombudsman for Induhvidual Affairs, Holder of Past Knowledge<BR>
Come visit my web page at http://www.fidnet.com/~stormhnd<BR>
Or my new Amateur Radio web page at http://www.qsl.net/kc0ekv<BR>
Or my JN6 course design page at http://www.fidnet.com/~stormhnd/golfpage.htm<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 09:35:42 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
Subject: Re: can "habitable" worlds exist around M-V stars?<BR>
<BR>
Ian Ferguson writes:<BR>
> <BR>
>      The inflated number of F-type stars may be unrealistic (does somebody<BR>
>      know the relative abundance that we should find?), but then the<BR>
>      frequency of Atm 2-9 is probably unrealistic also.<BR>
<BR>
For habitable worlds, the highest frequencies should almost certainly be G <BR>
and brighter K; F class stars are a bit rare, and also have a fairly short<BR>
lifespan.  I was playing around with a world generation system (on the net <BR>
at http://www.geocities.com/ac_jackson/hero/worlds.html ; there are no links<BR>
to it at the moment); the overall frequency of stars it gives is pretty <BR>
accurate, the frequency for habitable stars is consistent with the other<BR>
tables at least.  <BR>
 <BR>
>      I'm not sure that being in the "habitable zone" will help you all that<BR>
>      much if you are on a vacuum world.  Sure, the heat/cold will be a<BR>
>      problem if you are in the inner/outer zones, but living on an airless<BR>
>      world would seem to be the biggest challenge.<BR>
<BR>
Very probably.<BR>
> <BR>
> >Anyone have any suggestions as to how, for example, 600,000<BR>
> >humans could survive using TL7 technology on a 1,600 km diameter rock with<BR>
> >negligible water or atmosphere (Zenopit/Jewell)-- *outside* the habitable<BR>
> >region of an M3-V star?  Either I have to fudge the data and say that this<BR>
> >tiny rock orbits v-e-r-y close to the star, or come up with something<BR>
> >else. Any thoughts?<BR>
<BR>
Now don't limit yourself.  Enope has 6 billion people on a size-4 rock with<BR>
trace atmosphere and water, at TL 6.  Rethe has 30 billion people on a <BR>
size-2 rock with a very thin atmosphere and no water, at TL 8.  Tsarina has<BR>
3 million people on a rockball with very thin atmosphere and no water, at<BR>
TL 5.  Any one of those is probably worse than Zenopit.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 10:57:56 -0700<BR>
From: Jason Postma <JasonP@i-link.net><BR>
Subject: RE: Grav-powered floating cities?<BR>
<BR>
I'm sure the Imperial Palace is a floating structure because it's more<BR>
impressive that way.  There's a definite psychological advantage for a<BR>
ruling class to be in a floating city (far above the peasants).  It could be<BR>
a sign of wealth and prestige to live in a floating city.<BR>
<BR>
It's possible that only the upper atmospheric regions are habitable on some<BR>
worlds.  Larry Niven's colony on Plateau (in "A Gift From Earth") had a<BR>
terran-normal environment, but only on a plateau the size of California on<BR>
the top of a gigantic mountain - the lower elevations were uninhabitable.<BR>
Grav cities would be welcome there.<BR>
<BR>
On a violently volcanically active world, grav cities might be safer than<BR>
building on the ground.  Weekly cyclones or tidal waves or something would<BR>
make a mobile city safer than a ground-based city - they can get out of the<BR>
way before the disaster strikes.  Overly-hostile life forms could be avoided<BR>
too (although it's probably more efficient to control the life forms than<BR>
build grav cities).  It might also be a method to avoid contaminating the<BR>
local ecosystem.<BR>
<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
From: Ingo Heinscher [mailto:Hiroshi.Estigarribia@gmx.de]<BR>
Sent: Tuesday, March 28, 2000 10:10 AM<BR>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Subject: Grav-powered floating cities?<BR>
<BR>
Hi!<BR>
<BR>
I' ve found several references to grav-powered floating cities on High-Tech<BR>
worlds in Traveller. <BR>
<BR>
My question is:<BR>
<BR>
Why? I mean, why should anyone build such a city? Every technology can<BR>
fail, so it's an additional source for desasters. Plus it's not easy to<BR>
walk to a suburb...<BR>
<BR>
I can imagine it _could_ be good for a gas.giant settlement, but then again<BR>
it would probably be cheaper to build an orbital facility and send special<BR>
craft for the actual work, whatever ist is.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 13:00:57 EST<BR>
From: GypsyComet@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Stellar Data question-- can "habitable" worlds exist around M-V stars?<BR>
<BR>
"James W. Lindsay" <jlindsay@home.com> asks:<BR>
<BR>
>This question has always bothered me, ever since Book 6: Scouts came out.<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
><BR>
>  Anyone have any suggestions as to how, for example, 600,000<BR>
>humans could survive using TL7 technology on a 1,600 km diameter rock with<BR>
>negligible water or atmosphere (Zenopit/Jewell)-- *outside* the habitable<BR>
>region of an M3-V star?  Either I have to fudge the data and say that this<BR>
>tiny rock orbits v-e-r-y close to the star, or come up with something else.<BR>
><BR>
>Any thoughts?<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
Hmm. A Very Thin atmosphere and no water is not particularly "habitable," but <BR>
hey.<BR>
 BtC lists the climate as "warm" which suggests that they either changed the <BR>
stellar type again (it used to be an M8-D in CT) or monkeyed with the orbital <BR>
radius, or tidally locked it. This produces a habitable ring somewhere on the <BR>
planet. Sometimes.<BR>
<BR>
GC<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 10:17:38 -0800<BR>
From: "Luther Martin" <martin@ksarul.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Grav-powered floating cities?<BR>
<BR>
> It's possible that only the upper atmospheric regions are habitable on<BR>
some<BR>
> worlds.  Larry Niven's colony on Plateau (in "A Gift From Earth") had a<BR>
> terran-normal environment, but only on a plateau the size of California on<BR>
> the top of a gigantic mountain - the lower elevations were uninhabitable.<BR>
> Grav cities would be welcome there.<BR>
<BR>
It may be more comfortable in a grav city. Here on Earth, the adiabatic<BR>
environmantal lapse rate is about 9.8 K/km, so if you go up 1 km, you can<BR>
expect the temperature to drop by about 10 degrees C. If it's very hot on<BR>
the ground, you can make it more confortable by going up until it gets<BR>
better. On the other hand, the atmosphere will also get less dense.<BR>
<BR>
The figure 9.8 K/km is, of course, for Earth. On another planet it will be<BR>
different. This is due to different gravity, atmospheric density, etc.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 14:00:44 -0500<BR>
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Grav-powered floating cities?<BR>
<BR>
From: Ingo Heinscher <Hiroshi.Estigarribia@gmx.de><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> Hi!<BR>
><BR>
> I' ve found several references to grav-powered floating cities on<BR>
> High-Tech worlds in Traveller.<BR>
><BR>
> My question is:<BR>
><BR>
> Why? I mean, why should anyone build such a city?<BR>
<BR>
Why not? I'm sure there are practical reasons to build such a city, but<BR>
there's also a drive to create incredible feats of engineering. There's the<BR>
Empire State Building, the CN Tower, the Pyramids and tombs of Egypt, the<BR>
Golden Gate Bridge, the St. Louis Arch and so on and so forth.<BR>
<BR>
So why wouldn't there be grav cities?<BR>
<BR>
> Every technology can fail, so it's an additional source for desasters.<BR>
<BR>
We're not talking about some new, untested technology here. Contra-grav<BR>
technology is old and well tested. There are air/rafts, luxury cars, space<BR>
ships and space stations that all use gravitic technology... and nobody bats<BR>
an eyelash.<BR>
<BR>
> Plus it's not easy to walk to a suburb...<BR>
<BR>
In a society that is crazy enough about gravitics, walking might not even be<BR>
an option. People would probably scoot around in other ways, contra-grav<BR>
belts, cars and bikes are all fine.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 13:59:49 -0500<BR>
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU><BR>
Subject: Grav Powered Floating Cities<BR>
<BR>
One thing to remember about civilizations with floating cities: they've<BR>
probably had antigravity technology for *millenia*. They would think no<BR>
more of putting it under a city - barring expense - than we would think of <BR>
putting an oil furnace under a house.<BR>
<BR>
The "suburbs" are probably floating communities as well, or are<BR>
a short hop away on an air/raft or speeder. <BR>
<BR>
Advantages: <BR>
Pick your climate, and even your temperature on any given day by<BR>
changing location and altitude. <BR>
<BR>
Free up land for agriculture, recreation, or aesthetic/social reasons.<BR>
<BR>
Segregation from other cities or subcultures.<BR>
<BR>
Temporary closeness to other cities at will - park next to NeoTokyo<BR>
today, park next to NeuvoRoma tomorrow.<BR>
<BR>
Enjoy changes of scenery on a regular basis.<BR>
<BR>
Avoid annoying wildlife or seismic activity.<BR>
<BR>
Live in something that looks cool and really makes you feel like<BR>
you're part of that hip starship Travelling culture.<BR>
(In a civilization with this much wealth, don't knock the last one as<BR>
a compelling reason.)<BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 12:13:26 -0700<BR>
From: Jason Postma <JasonP@i-link.net><BR>
Subject: RE: Grav Powered Floating Cities<BR>
<BR>
They wouldn't think of it exactly like putting an oil furnace under a house<BR>
- - it wouldn't be a sign of prestige then.  They might think of antigravs as<BR>
reliable as we think oil furnaces are today, but floating an entire city is<BR>
probably still an unusual event on most worlds.<BR>
<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
From: Walter Smith [mailto:SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU]<BR>
Sent: Tuesday, March 28, 2000 12:00 PM<BR>
To: 'TML'<BR>
Subject: Grav Powered Floating Cities<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
One thing to remember about civilizations with floating cities: they've<BR>
probably had antigravity technology for *millenia*. They would think no<BR>
more of putting it under a city - barring expense - than we would think of <BR>
putting an oil furnace under a house.<BR>
<BR>
The "suburbs" are probably floating communities as well, or are<BR>
a short hop away on an air/raft or speeder. <BR>
<BR>
Advantages: <BR>
Pick your climate, and even your temperature on any given day by<BR>
changing location and altitude. <BR>
<BR>
Free up land for agriculture, recreation, or aesthetic/social reasons.<BR>
<BR>
Segregation from other cities or subcultures.<BR>
<BR>
Temporary closeness to other cities at will - park next to NeoTokyo<BR>
today, park next to NeuvoRoma tomorrow.<BR>
<BR>
Enjoy changes of scenery on a regular basis.<BR>
<BR>
Avoid annoying wildlife or seismic activity.<BR>
<BR>
Live in something that looks cool and really makes you feel like<BR>
you're part of that hip starship Travelling culture.<BR>
(In a civilization with this much wealth, don't knock the last one as<BR>
a compelling reason.)<BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 14:38:06 -0500<BR>
From: Laning <laning@wizard.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Landgrab: Notes on building Heya<BR>
<BR>
On 26 Mar 2000 at 10:58, gridlore@pop.mindspring.com wrote a long<BR>
preliminary description of information he's created for Heya/Regina so far,<BR>
including the following:<BR>
><BR>
>Subject: Landgrab: Notes on building Heya<BR>
><BR>
>My next problem was that Heya is listed as having a dense atmosphere.  Hard<BR>
>to justify on such a small planet. I fudged the die rolls to give the world<BR>
>a density of 5.4g/cc. Even with that, the best I could manage was an<BR>
>atmospheric pressure of 1.2 standard. Oh, well. That's still pretty good<BR>
>for a world with only .67 gravity.<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
	Good writeup, Doug.<BR>
<BR>
	With the atmospher, and 0.67g, I'm thinking of taking a vacation there.<BR>
Can't bring my own hang glider, because its performance will be wacky in a<BR>
place with such different factors.  But I bet there are some nice hang<BR>
gliders locally available.  Including the kind where the pilots can flap<BR>
the wings for added lift and propulsion.  Probably by simple mechanical<BR>
transfer from the legs.  Since leg muscles are much stronger than arms in a<BR>
normally developed human.  Maybe with bicycle pedals, but more likely not.<BR>
Probably something akin to the unpowered walker devices that people posted<BR>
about in response to the powered armor RFP from DARPA.<BR>
<BR>
	(BTW, I think it was nearly ten years ago that I saw the unpowered walkers<BR>
on a TV show.  They had about a ten minute segment on them, showed the<BR>
first prototypes, and mentioned that the US military was already<BR>
interested,  They were a bit tall, but amazingly fast and efficient.)<BR>
<BR>
	Maybe there's a small group of semitransients, dedicated to flying, living<BR>
on Heya in one of the premiere spots for flying?  Sort of surfer dude<BR>
types.  They have grav generators to keep their living areas up to 1g or<BR>
higher, they do weightlifting and such in their artificial gravity.  That<BR>
keeps them nice and strong for their flying forays, which is what they live<BR>
for.  Sure, people on other planets can use grav belts to lower their own<BR>
weight to nothing and make hang gliders on other planets more possible, but<BR>
isn't the same.  On Heya, you fly with no outside aid or assistance.  The<BR>
real purists would eschew living in the artificial grav fields, and would<BR>
train even more arduously to make up for it.<BR>
<BR>
	The lifestyle and attitude of these flyer dudes would be an interesting<BR>
juxtaposition with the conservative farmers of the planet.  There might be<BR>
some interesting dynamics when the flyer dudes and the displaced Vargrs<BR>
(DVs) encounter each other too.<BR>
<BR>
- --Laning<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 11:49:19 -0800<BR>
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Drop Tanks<BR>
<BR>
>Drop tanks are more or<BR>
>less single use. They are made of cheap materials. (They can be salvaged and<BR>
>reused, but this is icing on the cake. They are not specifically designed<BR>
>for reuse.)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
But why aren't they designed for reuse?  If you work out the<BR>
numbers, that's were they have their impact and its hard<BR>
reationalize that they couldn't be made reusuable.<BR>
<BR>
______________________________<BR>
summers@alum.mit.edu<BR>
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 12:09:15 -0800<BR>
From: Russell Bornschlegel <kaleja@estarcion.com><BR>
Subject: Off list for a while.<BR>
<BR>
I'll be off-list for a while, dealing with real-world concerns.<BR>
<BR>
Everyone should turn up their "tendency to debate, politely, with <BR>
everyone, especially Leonard" knobs by 0.22 notches to compensate.<BR>
<BR>
See ya on the other side.<BR>
<BR>
- -Russell B<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 21:04:53 +0100<BR>
From: "Mark Preston" <mark@mpreston.demon.co.uk><BR>
Subject: RE: Fencing in Traveller<BR>
<BR>
True, they are in a different universe through most of the series<BR>
(have you not got to the end yet?) but the binary worlds thing could<BR>
still be on the cards if the atmosphere's were close enough for the<BR>
"rockets" to power the ships across the vacuum gap. Great books<BR>
though.<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Leonard<BR>
> Erickson<BR>
> Sent: 28 March 2000 00:34<BR>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> Subject: Re: Fencing in Traveller<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> In mail you write:<BR>
><BR>
> > There was a trilogy of books "The Wooden Spaceships", "Ragged<BR>
> > Astronauts" and "Fugitive Worlds" by Bob Shaw. Good read, but not<BR>
> > really much use for Traveller - except at binary planets.<BR>
><BR>
> Not much good even then. If you read carefully, you'll see<BR>
> where Shaw<BR>
> clues folks in about this happening in a different universe.<BR>
><BR>
> You see, one of the characters calaculates the value of Pi as *3*.<BR>
><BR>
> >> Wasn't there a science fiction milieu based on WOODEN starships?<BR>
><BR>
> I rather like the one where antigravity is easy to discover ifyou<BR>
> perform the proper experiment, and eventually leads to a hyperdrive.<BR>
> But this is a dead end as it *doesn't* lead to regular physics, and<BR>
> (apparently) interfers with the development of the<BR>
> scientific method.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 21:06:17 +0100<BR>
From: "Mark Preston" <mark@mpreston.demon.co.uk><BR>
Subject: RE: Nebula pix<BR>
<BR>
Got a picture of Orion if its any good to you. Let me know and I'll<BR>
scan it and email it.<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of<BR>
> Sword-Worlder<BR>
> Sent: 28 March 2000 15:14<BR>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> Subject: Nebula pix<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> Fellow citizens,<BR>
><BR>
> I am in need of an image of a red nebula.  It needs to be<BR>
> fairly bright and<BR>
> contrasty.  It is to be the background for an ad banner, so<BR>
> I'll need use<BR>
> permission, as well.  Any ideas?<BR>
><BR>
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^<BR>
> Colin Michael, WebDev<BR>
> www.downport.com<BR>
> The Traveller Domain<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2204<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2205</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
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Traveller-digest      Tuesday, March 28 2000      Volume 1999 : Number 2205<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
RE: wooden starships was RE: Fencing in Traveller<BR>
Flag Stoppages<BR>
Re: Re Classification of Systems<BR>
RE: Grav Powered Floating Cities<BR>
Re: gambling "marks", grifters, and...<BR>
Re: Making energy weapons work in FFS2<BR>
RE: Drop Tanks<BR>
Re: Grav Powered Floating Cities<BR>
Re: Landgrab: Notes on building Heya<BR>
Re: Landgrab: Notes on building Heya<BR>
Re: Flag Stoppages<BR>
Re: Trains, planes and automobiles<BR>
Re: TML Landgrab: Collace<BR>
Re: Fwd: GT Tech Issue: Why *NOT* drop tanks? [LONG]<BR>
Re: Contract Law 101<BR>
Re: More Cool Maps<BR>
RE: Flag Stoppages<BR>
Re: Re Classes and Traveller<BR>
Grav Cities<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 21:07:50 +0100<BR>
From: "Mark Preston" <mark@mpreston.demon.co.uk><BR>
Subject: RE: wooden starships was RE: Fencing in Traveller<BR>
<BR>
Umm, no Dom - I mean Bob Shaw's books. Honest.<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of <BR>
> SD Mooney<BR>
> Sent: 27 March 2000 23:31<BR>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> Subject: wooden starships was RE: Fencing in Traveller<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> At 16:44 -0500 27/3/00, "Mark Preston" <BR>
> <mark@mpreston.demon.co.uk> wrote:<BR>
> >There was a trilogy of books "The Wooden Spaceships", "Ragged<BR>
> >Astronauts" and "Fugitive Worlds" by Bob Shaw. Good read, but not<BR>
> >really much use for Traveller - except at binary planets.<BR>
> <BR>
> Do you mean Space 1889 - GDW's Victorian's in Space Game?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 11:23:53 -0900<BR>
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Flag Stoppages<BR>
<BR>
>Speaking of flag stuff, whilst leaving the library at our Tri-service<BR>
>military academy they were lowering the flag out the front. The WO blew a<BR>
>whistle and two students who'd been walking/chatting in front immeditaly<BR>
>went into attention mode until the whistle went again.<BR>
><BR>
>Is this a stock standard flag thing for Western (English Speaking) armies -<BR>
>or just an academy thing?<BR>
><BR>
On both Elmendorf AFB and Fort Richardson, it seems that everything stops<BR>
during the flag lowering ceremonies. Well, everyone outdoors in earshot of<BR>
the PA system at the HQ buildings (Which have an effective range of nearly<BR>
a mile).<BR>
<BR>
I agree, the Sunburst lowering would be a wonderful image.<BR>
<BR>
Still won't make me buy any more GT %^^&. ;)<BR>
<BR>
William F. Hostman  |  "Smith & Wesson: THe original Point and Click<BR>
interface!"<BR>
Aramis 0602 C55A364-C S kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge-<BR>
533<BR>
aramis@gci.net http://home.gci.net/~aramis Vilani: uilamaanamti sirohbrankilin<BR>
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn- t4-- tt+ to- tg-- ru+ ge 3i+ c+ jt-() au+ st- ls<BR>
pi+() ta+ he+(-) kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge- pi+<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 12:28:12 -0800<BR>
From: "Jesse LaBranche" <Vanquer@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Re Classification of Systems<BR>
<BR>
> >    Hmm... Okay, I've tried real role-playing with CW and it just didn't<BR>
> >seem to<BR>
> >have enough of a support system behind it to really RP with. Maybe the<BR>
> >GURPs or Autoduel Champions rules added enough to allow for that though.<BR>
<BR>
> ADC added enough hooks that you really can do serrious (albeit<BR>
> non-attribute) RP  with few problems. In short, it adds several new skills<BR>
> to CW, plus the ones added in the Compendia also help, and disads are<BR>
> simply Hero System disads as is.<BR>
<BR>
    That would tend to flesh it out as more of a playable RPG I bet :-)<BR>
<BR>
> >    Hey, is there a Hero system version of Traveller- or is it just<BR>
covered<BR>
> >under<BR>
> >GURPs?<BR>
> Someone did a Hero-Trav conversion on their W-Site.<BR>
<BR>
    Do you have any idea where?<BR>
<BR>
> As for where I lived, well, 90-93 I lived in mountain view. 93-94 in<BR>
> Fairview (KCA), 95 Peter's Creek. 96, Back to fairview (KCA, then a few<BR>
> blocks from there). Former President UAA Gaming Society. Responsible party<BR>
> for Minicon IV and Unicon IV. This was about 1992. UAAGS got banned form<BR>
> campus (for reasons not our fault, namely, the Head of Campus Security<BR>
> hates gamers with a passion...)<BR>
<BR>
    Wow.  I lived at Northern Lights and Boniface from about 91-95 then<BR>
on McCarrey/Pine (South Mountain View) from 96-97ish.  It's unfortunate<BR>
that we never managed to get together :-)<BR>
<BR>
> >CE? Did you meant CT or something else?<BR>
> CT. I don't run a spell checker since all the spell-checker-enabled email<BR>
> clients for the mac I dislike, except eudora pro, which I won't pay for.<BR>
> So, I wind up with the occasional glitch<BR>
> William F. Hostman<BR>
<BR>
    Ahh. Okay, I was afraid that maybe there was yet another version of<BR>
Traveller or variation that I wasn't even aware of.  I'm not much for a Mac<BR>
system personally- but to each his own I guess.<BR>
<BR>
Well TTYL- kinda a rush day today :-)<BR>
<BR>
Jesse.<BR>
vanquer@email.msn.com<BR>
ICQ. 8004143<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 15:51:41 -0500<BR>
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca><BR>
Subject: RE: Grav Powered Floating Cities<BR>
<BR>
Jason Postma  writes:<BR>
>Walter Smith<BR>
>>One thing to remember about civilizations with floating cities: they've<BR>
>>probably had antigravity technology for *millenia*. They would think no<BR>
>>more of putting it under a city - barring expense - than we would think of <BR>
>>putting an oil furnace under a house.<BR>
>They wouldn't think of it exactly like putting an oil furnace under a house<BR>
>- - it wouldn't be a sign of prestige then.  They might think of antigravs as<BR>
>reliable as we think oil furnaces are today, but floating an entire city is<BR>
>probably still an unusual event on most worlds.<BR>
<BR>
	I think that the point was not that such a feat would be routine, but<BR>
	that the risk associated with it would be minimal and invisible to<BR>
	the sophonts living there.<BR>
<BR>
Peez<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 15:53:20 -0500<BR>
From: Laning <laning@wizard.net><BR>
Subject: Re: gambling "marks", grifters, and...<BR>
<BR>
On 27 Mar 2000 at 00:33 (GMT -0800), Evyn MacDude<BR>
<wmacdude@worldnet.att.net> wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>Subject: Re: Gambling skill<BR>
><BR>
>The proper term here is Grifter.<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
	There are a couple of towns in the US populated by people whose way of<BR>
life is the confidence game and fraud schemes.  I forget where in Europe<BR>
they're transplanted from.  A few years ago, someone made a movie set in<BR>
this culture.  These people refer to themselve as (drum roll,<BR>
please)........travellers.  Coincidence?  ;-><BR>
<BR>
	I am not making this up.  You can search the IMDB at www.imdb.com if you<BR>
want to check.<BR>
<BR>
- --Laning<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 06:51:44 +1000<BR>
From: "Katharine Whitchurch" <katts@globalfreeway.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re: Making energy weapons work in FFS2<BR>
<BR>
> From: Matt Bond <MBOND@karpad.demon.co.uk><BR>
> Subject: RE: Making energy weapons work in FFS2<BR>
> > I'll have to play with building a 2 kJ helmet mounted TL12 laser.<BR>
><BR>
> Why bother? At those sorts of ranges and energy, anything explosive will<BR>
> probably still damage you after the PD Laser sets it off, if it's<BR>
> kinetic and is going to hit you, then the laser just turns it into<BR>
> molten metal (if that) that's going to hit you...<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
It's the difference between being hit by shrapnel and being hit by a HEAP<BR>
round.<BR>
<BR>
Remember, at these TLs you can take a .50 cal bullet without flinching too<BR>
much.<BR>
<BR>
> Does the targeting system only target projectiles whose trajectories<BR>
> intersect the trooper? If yes, then pepper the ground around him with<BR>
> grenades, after all, they aren't aimed *at* him.<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
It's TL12 or so, so the threat management software would be pretty<BR>
sophisticated.<BR>
<BR>
I'm taking Striker as the model for what I want, so in Battle Dress or<BR>
Combat Armour<BR>
you dont really worry about shrapnel from grenades.<BR>
<BR>
> If they are proximity activated, then either overwhelm them with massed<BR>
> full-auto, shotguns, bags of gravel, frag grenades etc (I assume that<BR>
> there is a finite delay between PD shots as the laser recharges. Unless<BR>
> these troopers have power stations on their backs, I can't see a<BR>
> sustained ROF much over 100 shots per second, which already requires a<BR>
> 200kW generator. This ROF can readily be overwhelmed), or give up and<BR>
> use high-energy or laser weapons against them.<BR>
<BR>
I'm trying to enforce the latter ;)<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
> If they have a targetting threshold, to cut out stuff that can't<BR>
> penetrate, then if the sensors only go by mass, ultra-light<BR>
> hyper-velocity projectiles are the way to go. If the sensors rely on<BR>
> velocity then grenades are back in, as until it explodes it's no<BR>
> different to a rock of the same mass being hurled slowly at the target.<BR>
> If it is a combination of mass and velocity, then there may be a window<BR>
> for small, slow explosives. If not, get out the PGMP's and Lasers again.<BR>
<BR>
Ultra-light high velocity projectiles I dont mind, because you need a gauss<BR>
gun to get up to the kind of velocities you need. The idea of BD armed<BR>
troops cowering from a bunch of primitives with RPG-7s is what doesnt gel<BR>
for me.<BR>
<BR>
> Failing that call in the ortillery.<BR>
><BR>
> PD only works for ships an tanks because they can only effectively be<BR>
> damaged by relatively large, high velocity projectiles. They can ignore<BR>
> bullets and grenades. Troopers (even in BD) can't.<BR>
<BR>
Under Striker, I'd argue pretty damn strongly they could ignore shrapnel.<BR>
Tech 12 combat armour is Fac 10. Shrapnel from a TL12 grenade is Fac 2.<BR>
Bullets - depends what they come from. Now, cluster bomblets - there's a<BR>
different story, but that allows counterbattery fire.<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> > By TL11 tank-mounted PD systems should be able to hit slower<BR>
> > rounds (such as<BR>
> > a medium-velocity 250 mm HEAP round), while by TL12-13 you<BR>
> > should be able to<BR>
> > zap a hyper velocity gauss gun round.<BR>
><BR>
> Fair enough. I have no problem with that. But you just can't scale it<BR>
> down for a trooper to be able to deal with the target rich environment<BR>
> he inhabits. After all, most PD relies on breaking through a shell or<BR>
> missiles casing to either cause the explosives or fuel inside to<BR>
> prematurely detonate, or for stresses to tear the target apart into<BR>
> harmless fragments. This doesn't work at a scaled down level.<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
I'm not trying to make hi-tech troopers immune to everything. I am trying to<BR>
force the obsolescence of certain otherwise effecient weapons, in order to<BR>
keep a hi-tech feel to things.<BR>
<BR>
Ian Whitchurch<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 13:58:40 -0700<BR>
From: Jason Postma <JasonP@i-link.net><BR>
Subject: RE: Drop Tanks<BR>
<BR>
If the concept behind drop tanks is sound (that is, pump fuel into the<BR>
tanks, eject the tanks, then jump), here's another idea - in-system tugs.<BR>
<BR>
You could design relatively low-tech (say, TTL 10) ships with big thrusters<BR>
and large fuel tanks. These ships carry the trader ships out to the 100D<BR>
limit using their high-G drives, pump  fuel into the trader's jump drive,<BR>
then back away to allow for a safe jump.  Then they either go skim some fuel<BR>
or wait around at 100D until they can pick up someone for the trip back<BR>
(also at high G).  <BR>
Suddenly the 1G traders cut dozens of hours off of their in-system transit<BR>
time, at a fraction of what the lost cargo space and bigger maneuver drives<BR>
would cost them, while also enjoying all the benefits drop tanks would give<BR>
them.  Tugs could also carry emergency facilities, or could even transfer<BR>
passengers or cargo to the main world if this system isn't the trader's<BR>
final stop.<BR>
The tugs could be built at any Class B (GT IV) starport and maintained at<BR>
any class C (GT III)or possibly even D ports (GT II).    <BR>
<BR>
Such a system could drastically change parts of the Traveller Universe, so<BR>
IMTU there must be something wrong with the whole idea of Drop Tanks<BR>
(haven't figured out what yet, but I will give it some thought).<BR>
<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
From: David P. Summers [mailto:summers@alum.mit.edu]<BR>
<BR>
>Drop tanks are more or<BR>
>less single use. They are made of cheap materials. (They can be salvaged<BR>
and<BR>
>reused, but this is icing on the cake. They are not specifically designed<BR>
>for reuse.)<BR>
<BR>
But why aren't they designed for reuse?  If you work out the<BR>
numbers, that's were they have their impact and its hard<BR>
reationalize that they couldn't be made reusuable.<BR>
<BR>
______________________________<BR>
summers@alum.mit.edu<BR>
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in<BR>
California.)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 12:59:00 -0800<BR>
From: "Luther Martin" <martin@ksarul.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Grav Powered Floating Cities<BR>
<BR>
How much do you suppose a typical city weighs? Even in the Traveller world<BR>
of abundant energy, it might take way too much energy to keep a grav powered<BR>
city up, since you will need to overcome the gravity from the planet on a<BR>
7x24 basis (or whatever the local time units are). Since I'm at work now, I<BR>
don't have the time to do a calculation, but my intuition tells me that a<BR>
lot of energy will be required to keep one of these guys up. On the other<BR>
hand, it may provide a practical llimit to the size of a floating city.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 12:45:26<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Landgrab: Notes on building Heya<BR>
<BR>
At 11:14 PM 3/27/2000 -0500, you wrote:<BR>
>> From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com> wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>> Well sirs, what do you think?<BR>
><BR>
>Wow. Doug, this may sound wierd, but quit while you're ahead.<BR>
>I don't think that you could add a thing to that description<BR>
>to make it any better. Well, except stuff like maps and such,<BR>
>but the text, for me at least, is golden.<BR>
<BR>
I'm going to clean it up, and of course change a few things in light (NPI)<BR>
of the revelations about the actual effects of Zyra's passage.<BR>
<BR>
Hopefully, I'll get a format like the one we discussed: library data blurb,<BR>
pilot's guide, Scout report.<BR>
- --<BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
"I created the universe; give ME the gift certificate!!"<BR>
                   - Lisa Simpson, Overachiever<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 13:02:42<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Landgrab: Notes on building Heya<BR>
<BR>
At 08:52 AM 3/28/2000 +0200, Hans wrote:<BR>
>Douglas E. Berry writes:<BR>
<BR>
>>Well, I started changing things immediately.  I changed the primary to a<BR>
>>K2v, and the companion to a M0v.<BR>
><BR>
>Out of curiosity, why did you change the star classes?<BR>
<BR>
I just don't like really big stars.  Just personal preference. That and the<BR>
night before I started this, the roommates rented "When Worlds Collide".  :)<BR>
<BR>
After seeing that, I wanted to see what I could do with a wildly eccentric<BR>
companion star.<BR>
<BR>
>>My next problem was that Heya is listed as having a dense atmosphere.  Hard<BR>
>>to justify on such a small planet. I fudged the die rolls to give the world<BR>
>>a density of 5.4g/cc. Even with that, the best I could manage was an<BR>
>>atmospheric pressure of 1.2 standard. Oh, well. That's still pretty good<BR>
>>for a world with only .67 gravity.<BR>
><BR>
>Hmmm... Are you using First In here? I recently tried to work out a dense<BR>
>atmosphere for a size 4 world and worked out that you can just manage it<BR>
>with a size 5.4 world. Mind you, it would require a minimum of three natural<BR>
>18s on the die rolls to get that result randomly, but it can be done. For a<BR>
>size 6 world I wouldn't expect any trouble.<BR>
<BR>
I could have, but I was fudging a lot of the rolls already, and felt that<BR>
dropping the atmosphere code from 8 to 6 wasn't that bad a change.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>>Looking around the subsector, it's obvious where their products go.. there<BR>
>>are three hi-pop world in the subsector, at least two of which cannot feed<BR>
>>themselves. No wonder they're rich! They can sell their grains and seafood<BR>
>>for any price they want!<BR>
><BR>
>According to The Traveller Book Heya's only source of off-planet currency is<BR>
>tourism and the government is pretty desperate to get that. Mind you, I<BR>
>don't claim that that makes much sense.<BR>
<BR>
Exactly. I'm the son of a travel agent. Dear Old Dad would have laughed.<BR>
Take a look at the location. Heya is *far* from any reasonable source of<BR>
tourist trade.  As you mentioned, the Regina Parasail and Hang-gliding<BR>
Society make regular pilgrimages to take advantage of the conditions<BR>
(thanks for that idea, it's perfect.)<BR>
<BR>
So I threw the old book out. BtC states that the world produces vast<BR>
amounts of cereal grains.  There are obvious markets in the subsector. So I<BR>
went with that idea.  The old Sternmetal grant was just a piece of color.<BR>
<BR>
>Except for the rebels, of course.<BR>
<BR>
Once again, I threw the book out (Eris has taken over my brain.)<BR>
<BR>
Rebels are a dime a dozen in the Marches. I wanted something different. To<BR>
be honest, I like villains who are painted in shades of grey. So I brought<BR>
in my Vargr refugees.  Yes, by 1120 they run massive criminal organizations<BR>
on Heya, but only because they are an oppressed minority one step above<BR>
slavery!<BR>
<BR>
Add in a new Thamerite sect that has decided that all genetic modification<BR>
is wrong, including what was done to the Vargr...<BR>
> <BR>
>Here is my file of canonical info about Heya. I hope you will find it useful:<BR>
<BR>
Once I started down the path of heresy, there was no turning back!<BR>
<BR>
>Heya is settled between 300 and 400 and remains outside the Imperium till<BR>
>after 500. [TA:15]<BR>
<BR>
Which fits with my timeline. Sternmetal was probably sending out<BR>
expeditions all throughout the Marches. Heya looked promising.<BR>
<BR>
>Around 1100 Heya is plagued by guerrillas hostile to the local government.<BR>
>Heya only source of off-planet currency is tourism[*] and the government<BR>
>conceals the extent of the problems and restricts tourists to the <BR>
>relatively safe areas south of the capital. Due to the rebels imports<BR>
>restrictions on weapons are very tight. [TB:129]<BR>
><BR>
>[*] What, no agricultural exports?<BR>
<BR>
This was all thrown out because, IMHO, it's awful writing.<BR>
<BR>
>During 5FW Heya was occupied by elements of the Uthith Fleet (formed by the<BR>
>Ekhlle Ksafi (40th Squadron). When the Gireel Fleet was destroyed at Beck's<BR>
>World, Admiral Thuekhs negotiated a separate peace and withdrew from Regina<BR>
>Subsector on 252-1109. [VV:51]<BR>
<BR>
Part of the reason the locals were just *thrilled* to see a couple thousand<BR>
Vargr refugees dumped on their world.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas "Penguin Boy" Berry  gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
  http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
"But that's not the point!" raged Ford. "The point is that I am now a<BR>
perfectly safe penguin, and my colleague here is rapidly running out of<BR>
limbs!"  - The Hitchhiker's Guide To The Galaxy<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 13:06:37<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Flag Stoppages<BR>
<BR>
At 11:23 AM 3/28/2000 -0900, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>>Is this a stock standard flag thing for Western (English Speaking) armies -<BR>
>>or just an academy thing?<BR>
>><BR>
>On both Elmendorf AFB and Fort Richardson, it seems that everything stops<BR>
>during the flag lowering ceremonies. Well, everyone outdoors in earshot of<BR>
>the PA system at the HQ buildings (Which have an effective range of nearly<BR>
>a mile).<BR>
<BR>
At Ft. Benning, my unit was located quite a distance from Brigade<BR>
Headquarters, which had the offical flagpole.<BR>
<BR>
Our First Sergeant, who like many E-8s was hard of hearing, could hear the<BR>
start of "Retreat" so every night at 1700 formation, you'd hear aboput six<BR>
people shout "music!" when the heard the flag lowering ceremony begin.<BR>
<BR>
He'd bring us to attention, present arms, then count off one minute, or<BR>
wait until we saw somebody else drop the salute.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 07:07:01 +1000<BR>
From: "Katharine Whitchurch" <katts@globalfreeway.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re: Trains, planes and automobiles<BR>
<BR>
> From: Stormhound <stormhnd@fidnet.com><BR>
> Subject: Re: Grav-powered floating cities?<BR>
> bridges.  And we'll get rid of trains, planes, and automobiles (along with<BR>
any<BR>
> means of transportation built by Famille Spofulam).<BR>
<BR>
Funny you should mention that.<BR>
<BR>
Ditzie's latest project (after ensuring the obsolescence of the CPR gun) is<BR>
another Export Markets job.<BR>
<BR>
It is based on some Straaaaategic Stuudddiez work - specifically some<BR>
partial and incomplete records for mounting a nuclear missile system on<BR>
external combustion engines running on rails (the proposal is for the FX<BR>
missile, or something like that).<BR>
<BR>
Now, nukes are, in the words of Ms Spofulam, booooooooring, but she thinks<BR>
that a better idea may be to have a rail-mounted PAW.<BR>
<BR>
The idea is that "twains" as Ditzie calls them are used on many, many<BR>
lo-tech worlds, steel-wheels-on-steel having high load bearing and low<BR>
traction, so you could have a number of PAWs quite happily shuttling around<BR>
the countryside, and when raider or pirates turned up then they get<BR>
"zappity-zap-zap-zapped".<BR>
<BR>
If the news got around that a world had a number of these scattered across<BR>
their continent, then the old raider trick of "the defenses are at the<BR>
capital. Lets hit that provincial city" wont work, and hopefully the raiders<BR>
will turn to honest work.<BR>
<BR>
Now, can Ditzie get some help with building trains at TL6-8 ?<BR>
<BR>
Ian Whitchurch<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 15:07:56 -0600<BR>
From: Donald McKinney <dmckinne@amdocs.com><BR>
Subject: Re: TML Landgrab: Collace<BR>
<BR>
Actually, the relationship between:<BR>
<BR>
Collace, client state of the Imperium<BR>
and<BR>
Trexalon, client state of the Sword Worlds<BR>
<BR>
is revealed in Double Adventure 6: Divine Intervention...<BR>
<BR>
I'll try and dig it out at home, but basically, Collace and Trexalon<BR>
are all but shooting at each other during the Fifth Frontier War <BR>
period.  Only the fact that the Imperium and the Sword Worlds don't<BR>
have any forces to throw away in actions in District 268 keep things<BR>
from overheating.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
DonM.<BR>
- --<BR>
========================================================================<BR>
= Donald E. McKinney, ConfigMgt 3x Team Lead       dmckinne@amdocs.com =<BR>
= Amdocs Ltd., 2109 Fox Drive, Champaign, IL            (217) 351-8250 =<BR>
= Winter War 28 Convention Chairman, Champaign, IL, February 2-4, 2001 =<BR>
= winterwar@prairienet.org        http://www.prairienet.org/winterwar/ =<BR>
========================================================================<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 22:08:00 +0100<BR>
From: Postmark Design Bureau <postmark.design@btinternet.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Fwd: GT Tech Issue: Why *NOT* drop tanks? [LONG]<BR>
<BR>
Dalton Spence wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> > >                          Traveller News Service<BR>
> <BR>
> > >                                   1105<BR>
> <BR>
> > >  Regina/Regina (0310-A788899-A) Date: 097-1105<BR>
> <BR>
> > >  Officials of the General Shipyards on Regina announced that it has<BR>
> > >  completed negotiations with Tukera Lines to locally manufacture L-Hyd<BR>
> > >  drop tanks for use on high-capacity commercial vessels. General will<BR>
> > >  assemble components at its more modern facilities on Pixie<BR>
> > >  (0303-A1001030-D). The first production examples are expected to be<BR>
> > >  available within six months, at which time Tukera Lines will begin<BR>
> > >  high capacity service from the interior. Component assembly will be<BR>
> > >  carried out at General's more modern facilities on Pixie<BR>
> > >  (0303-A100103-D).<BR>
> <BR>
> > Looks like the Department of Redundancy Department is at work again.<BR>
> > (Is that redundant?) :)<BR>
<BR>
It's a misprint.<BR>
<BR>
Unfortunately for the GTL12 theory, the implication is that the tanks can be<BR>
made at TL-10 (GTL-9) whilst the specialised components are TL-13 (GTL-10).<BR>
<BR>
Even worse, the best known design is the Gazelle (TL-14/GTL-11). This seems<BR>
to have been designed to use drop tanks (since it has Jump-5 engines and not<BR>
enough fuel) and it seems to have been around long enough as a design to have<BR>
served in various roles, starting as a fleet escort, moving on to courier<BR>
duties and patrol work.<BR>
<BR>
> > 1.) They are complex to use. Rather than just feed the jump drive<BR>
> >     and go, the crew must:<BR>
> <BR>
> >     a - Feed the long storage jump capacitor (LSJC).<BR>
> >     b - Jettison the tanks.<BR>
> >     c - Move away to a safe distance (100D of the ship?)<BR>
> >     d - Jump.<BR>
> <BR>
> >     This must be done quickly because "Long Storage" is a relative<BR>
> >     thing, and the jump must be made before the capacitor explodes.<BR>
<BR>
The suggestion is "a couple of minutes". Since the tanks could be about 100m,<BR>
100D is about 10km. Using 0.5at^2 suggests that 1G is enough. A trivial<BR>
thrust for an empty tank. By contrast, exploding the tank would just surround<BR>
you in wreckage.<BR>
 <BR>
> > >  L-Hyd tanks are not reusable, and thus increase the absolute cost per<BR>
> > >  jump. However, experience has shown that the increase in cargo tonnage<BR>
> > >  resulting from the elimination of internal J-fuel storage more than<BR>
> > >  makes up for this, the press release explained.<BR>
<BR>
Drop tanks are bad enough, but if you have 100sec to reach a safe 100D limit,<BR>
you have the option of building a starbase, giving it lots of fuel, then you<BR>
design lots of small 10dT 1G robot fuel tanks which only require 10 secs to<BR>
reach 100D or (in its ultimate form) a tanker with a fuel line.<BR>
<BR>
Now Traveller is starting to look different.<BR>
<BR>
Personally, I'd suggest changing the sequence to:<BR>
<BR>
a - charge the jump drive (this takes about an hour)<BR>
b - as the majority of fuel is drawn from the tanks, the energy is<BR>
    immediately used to open a portal into jumpspace (hanging on to the<BR>
    energy would just cause things to vapourise.)<BR>
c - enter jumpspace<BR>
d - the jump volume doesn't include the tanks, so you have to make sure that<BR>
    the fuel in them is used before they are destroyed in jumpspace.<BR>
e - the last few bits of wrecked tanks that exist in the metre or so between<BR>
    the hull and jumpspace are ejected.<BR>
<BR>
Personally, I think this explains more of the observed features than canon<BR>
(and with fewer holes). However, its totally IMTU and not in the rulebook.<BR>
<BR>
Then again, IMTU the capacitors needed are TL-16 (GTL-13) discovered whilst<BR>
researching the "Black Globe" Ancient artifacts, I wouldn't trust General<BR>
Shipyards to build a cardboard droptank, never mind a jump drive and MTU is<BR>
still stuck in Y200 so I won't have this problem for another thousand years!<BR>
<BR>
That also makes the Gazelle an experimental design, intended to look like the<BR>
older J-4 Fury class but with a bigger jump drive (the space coming from a<BR>
more powerful but smaller powerplant due to higher tech level)<BR>
<BR>
> (Note 3: I wrote this *before* I joined TML, and had no idea the<BR>
> concept of a J-6 X-boat network was being so hotly debated. FWIW, I<BR>
> agree that whatever the long term benefits, the immediate effects<BR>
> would be rather uncomfortable and disruptive to the status quo.)<BR>
<BR>
With later rule systems it becomes possible to design a J-6/6G Xboat<BR>
for about 100dT that is not much more expensive than the canon J-4/0-G<BR>
design. That's without using drop tanks.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Phil Kitching, http://www.btinternet.com/~salvo<BR>
Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Products Division<BR>
"Microwaving halfbaked ideas from across the galaxy"<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 13:11:47 -0800<BR>
From: "Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Contract Law 101<BR>
<BR>
Via electronic medium on 3/27/00 2:42 PM, johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu<BR>
issued forth:<BR>
<BR>
> Actually, (if my babelfish isn't lying to me again) that is a typo and<BR>
> should read 'Andy is one hoopy dude' 'Hoopy' as in 'Great, With it, all<BR>
> around cool guy to have around who always has his towel, as in "Dig that<BR>
> Zaphod Beeblebrox, now THAT is one hoopy dude!"'<BR>
<BR>
I thought he meant "froody".<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 13:21:03 -0800<BR>
From: "Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com><BR>
Subject: Re: More Cool Maps<BR>
<BR>
Via electronic medium on 3/27/00 3:08 PM, summers@alum.mit.edu issued forth:<BR>
<BR>
> I don't have anyplace to post it.  I never bothered to set up<BR>
> a web site.  If someone wants to put it on their site, I'll<BR>
> send it to them....<BR>
<BR>
I'll put it up on mine as long as there are no copyright probs. I have a few<BR>
maps I am avoiding posting for that reason. Of course spring has me busy<BR>
with ranch stuff, so it may take a few days or so. BTW, the icosahedronic<BR>
projection as described in GT: FI is driving me nuts. Trying to recreate it<BR>
from a text description has me stumped, I wind up a hex row extra or short.<BR>
Does somebody have a scan or such from GURPs: Space they might send me?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 15:24:25 -0600<BR>
From: "Moody, Danny M." <DMoody@bridge.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Flag Stoppages<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: William F. Hostman [mailto:aramis@gci.net]<BR>
<BR>
> On both Elmendorf AFB and Fort Richardson, it seems that <BR>
> everything stops<BR>
> during the flag lowering ceremonies. Well, everyone outdoors <BR>
> in earshot of<BR>
> the PA system at the HQ buildings (Which have an effective <BR>
> range of nearly<BR>
> a mile).<BR>
<BR>
Yep. This is a US Military thang also.  From http://www.gordon.army.mil/roa/aftb/customs.htm<BR>
<BR>
Reveille. The American flag is raised each day (usually at 0600 or 6:00 a.m.), while the bugle call "reveille" is played. All civilians should stand quietly. <BR>
<BR>
Retreat. The American flag is lowered each day (usually at 1700 or 5:00 p.m.), while the bugle call "retreat" is played and at some installations, a cannon is fired. If you are within sight or sound of the bugle and/or cannon, you should honor the flag by standing quietly and respectfully facing it. If you are in your car at the time of retreat, safely stop the car until the bugle call is finished. Military members in uniform must get out of the car and stand at attention.<BR>
     After the cannon is fired, "To The Colors" is played.  During the playing of "To The Colors" everyone should be at attention, those out of uniform with right hand over heart.  Personnel in uniform render the hand salute or, if under arms, present arms. <BR>
<BR>
I'll dig out my FM22-5 and see if the full ceremony is in there.  I'm sure it is.<BR>
 <BR>
> I agree, the Sunburst lowering would be a wonderful image.<BR>
<BR>
Definately.<BR>
<BR>
vargr1                                                   UPP-8D9B85<BR>
- ---------------------------- Omnia dicta fortiora, si dicta latina.<BR>
Meyers-Briggs personality type: ENTJ                vargr1@jcn1*com<BR>
"...the ENTJ is not one to be trifled with."      dmoody@bridge*com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 13:30:18 -0800<BR>
From: "Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Re Classes and Traveller<BR>
<BR>
Via electronic medium on 3/27/00 4:10 PM, Vanquer@email.msn.com issued<BR>
forth:<BR>
<BR>
> The discussion definitely told me that it's about<BR>
> time to broaden the categories that I use though.<BR>
<BR>
Then it's been a *good* discussion, eh?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 16:31:11 -0500<BR>
From: Roger Barr <RBarr@gatepetro.com><BR>
Subject: Grav Cities<BR>
<BR>
<SNIP><BR>
I' ve found several references to grav-powered floating cities on High-Tech<BR>
worlds in Traveller. <BR>
<BR>
My question is:<BR>
<BR>
Why? I mean, why should anyone build such a city? Every technology can<BR>
fail, so it's an additional source for desasters. Plus it's not easy to<BR>
walk to a suburb...<BR>
<END SNIP><BR>
<BR>
Because they can?<BR>
Humaniti has always done things just because they can do so.<BR>
<BR>
However, I could suggest a number of things being a good reason, such as<BR>
major seismic activity for a start.<BR>
<BR>
Roger Barr<BR>
TravelerGM@aol.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2205<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2206</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
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Traveller-digest      Tuesday, March 28 2000      Volume 1999 : Number 2206<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
RE: Flag Stoppages<BR>
Re: Contract Law 101<BR>
Re: Contract Law 101<BR>
Re: More Cool Maps<BR>
Re: Contract Law 101<BR>
Re: Drop Tanks<BR>
RE: Gaming is a business! (was re: Classification of Systems)<BR>
RE: Flag Stoppages<BR>
RE Floating Cities<BR>
Re: Gaming is a business! (was re: Classification of Systems)<BR>
Re: Drop Tanks<BR>
Re: Landgrab: Notes on building Heya<BR>
Re: Trains, planes and automobiles<BR>
Re: Nebula pix<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2202<BR>
Re: Classification of RPG's<BR>
re: ACQ - How to get it?<BR>
RE: wooden starships was RE: Fencing in Traveller<BR>
Re: Contract Law 101<BR>
Re: EW & Black Curtain<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2204<BR>
RE: Flag Stoppages<BR>
Re: Contract Law 101<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 13:35:03<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Flag Stoppages<BR>
<BR>
At 03:24 PM 3/28/2000 -0600, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Retreat. The American flag is lowered each day (usually at 1700 or 5:00<BR>
p.m.), while the bugle call "retreat" is played and at some installations,<BR>
a cannon is fired. If you are within sight or sound of the bugle and/or<BR>
cannon, you should honor the flag by standing quietly and respectfully<BR>
facing it. If you are in your car at the time of retreat, safely stop the<BR>
car until the bugle call is finished. Military members in uniform must get<BR>
out of the car and stand at attention.<BR>
<BR>
This is why every soldier's car is equipped with a *loud* stero system.<BR>
"Honestly, sir. I didn't here the music!"<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 22:39:50 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Contract Law 101<BR>
<BR>
>At 18:59 -0500 27/3/00, "Matthew Bond" <mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk><BR>
> >Err, can you translate that from the American to English?<BR>
><BR>
>A stout yeoman of the first order <g><BR>
<BR>
Jolly good, eh what? Super! Toodle pip old bean!<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 22:38:03 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Contract Law 101<BR>
<BR>
At 18:59 -0500 27/3/00, "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com> wrote:<BR>
> >>several matters. Not that this is a problem, as Andy is one Froopy Dude!<BR>
> ><BR>
> >Err, can you translate that from the American to English?<BR>
><BR>
>Doug gives Dom the Penguin Stare of Death as he silently hands over a copy<BR>
>of "The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy," written by noted non-American<BR>
>tea-sop Douglas Adams.<BR>
<BR>
Ahh... Hitchhiker's Guide. Last read by me in 1988 or so. I <BR>
discovered Pratchett soon after....<BR>
<BR>
:-)<BR>
<BR>
Dom (understanding why he doesn't understand).<BR>
<BR>
BTW Andy has only one head.<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 22:35:55 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Re: More Cool Maps<BR>
<BR>
At 18:59 -0500 27/3/00, Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu> wrote:<BR>
>Jeff Zeitlin would put it up on Freelance Traveller, or check out<BR>
>downport.com, they'll put it up too, I'd imagine.<BR>
<BR>
as would BITS.<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 22:34:20 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Contract Law 101<BR>
<BR>
At 18:59 -0500 27/3/00, Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu> wrote:<BR>
>Actually, (if my babelfish isn't lying to me again) that is a typo and<BR>
>should read 'Andy is one hoopy dude' 'Hoopy' as in 'Great, With it, all<BR>
>around cool guy to have around who always has his towel, as in "Dig that<BR>
>Zaphod Beeblebrox, now THAT is one hoopy dude!"'<BR>
><BR>
;-)<BR>
<BR>
Thanks,<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 07:49:05 +1000<BR>
From: "Katharine Whitchurch" <katts@globalfreeway.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re: Drop Tanks<BR>
<BR>
> From: Jason Postma <JasonP@i-link.net><BR>
> Subject: RE: Drop Tanks<BR>
><BR>
> If the concept behind drop tanks is sound (that is, pump fuel into the<BR>
> tanks, eject the tanks, then jump), here's another idea - in-system tugs.<BR>
<BR>
<stuff deleted><BR>
<BR>
> Such a system could drastically change parts of the Traveller Universe, so<BR>
> IMTU there must be something wrong with the whole idea of Drop Tanks<BR>
> (haven't figured out what yet, but I will give it some thought).<BR>
<BR>
Just up the misjump chances. A misjump chance of 0.5% will destroy the<BR>
usuability of drop tanks, fuel tankers etc in commercial roles, but allow<BR>
them for military deep-penetration raids (where an additional 0.5% chance of<BR>
loss is rounding error). Then it's a solved problem.<BR>
<BR>
Ian Whitchurch<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 15:52:46 -0600<BR>
From: "Moody, Danny M." <DMoody@bridge.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Gaming is a business! (was re: Classification of Systems)<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: Peter Newman [mailto:pnewman@gci.net]<BR>
> <BR>
> "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net> wrote<BR>
> <BR>
> [Jesse wrote] <BR>
> > >I was there from 90-97 and dealt with<BR>
> > >Bosco's regularly.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
I just gotta ask:<BR>
<BR>
I lived in AK for the second time from 89-91, and got a great honkin' amount of gaming stuff at Bosco's.  My gaming obsession stared with a trip to Spenard Hobby way back in 81.<BR>
<BR>
There was another game store out in the Muldoon mall - First Empire.  It started up in 1990.  Also, IIRC, one (or two) of the guys from Spenard Hobby stated a game/hobby shop called Fun For All. <BR>
<BR>
Do any of you know what happened to either one of 'em?<BR>
<BR>
 -- vargr1                                              UPP-8D9B85 --<BR>
The three principle virtues of a good programmer   | dmoody@bridge-dot-com<BR>
 are Laziness, Impatience, and Hubris.             | vargr1@jcn1-dot-com<BR>
             ** Omnia dicta fortiora, si dicta latina. **           <BR>
 <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 15:53:51 -0600<BR>
From: "Moody, Danny M." <DMoody@bridge.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Flag Stoppages<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: Douglas E. Berry [mailto:gridlore@pop.mindspring.com]<BR>
<BR>
> This is why every soldier's car is equipped with a *loud* <BR>
> stero system.<BR>
> "Honestly, sir. I didn't here the music!"<BR>
<BR>
And what about that cannon?<BR>
<BR>
 -- vargr1                                              UPP-8D9B85 --<BR>
The three principle virtues of a good programmer   | dmoody@bridge-dot-com<BR>
 are Laziness, Impatience, and Hubris.             | vargr1@jcn1-dot-com<BR>
             ** Omnia dicta fortiora, si dicta latina. **           <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 20:00:34 +1000<BR>
From: "Karen and Michael Hughes" <kmhughes@dynamite.com.au><BR>
Subject: RE Floating Cities<BR>
<BR>
- ------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 13:59:49 -0500<BR>
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU><BR>
Subject: Grav Powered Floating Cities<BR>
<BR>
One thing to remember about civilizations with floating cities: they've<BR>
probably had antigravity technology for *millenia*. They would think no<BR>
more of putting it under a city - barring expense - than we would think of<BR>
putting an oil furnace under a house.<BR>
<BR>
The "suburbs" are probably floating communities as well, or are<BR>
a short hop away on an air/raft or speeder.<BR>
<BR>
Advantages:<BR>
Pick your climate, and even your temperature on any given day by<BR>
changing location and altitude.<BR>
<BR>
<snip><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith<BR>
<BR>
One of the last DGP JTAS had a look at Vinncenes (spelling?), a subsector<BR>
capital in Deneb which had a vast number of grav cities - the main reason<BR>
being as I can recall that it was climactiv control reasosn . . . and cause<BR>
it was a water world (yes there were underwater acrologies as well). One of<BR>
the best Trav things I've ever read. God bless the folks at DGP?<BR>
<BR>
Who has the rights to their stuff again?<BR>
<BR>
SEC: Michael<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 13:53:03 -0800<BR>
From: "Jesse LaBranche" <Vanquer@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Gaming is a business! (was re: Classification of Systems)<BR>
<BR>
> [Jesse wrote]<BR>
> > >I was there from 90-97 and dealt with<BR>
> > >Bosco's regularly.  I always thought that their supply of new stuff<BR>
always<BR>
> > >sucked, although they had a pretty awesome supply of OOP materials.<BR>
> > >It may just be the supplements that I was having a problem with though,<BR>
> > >considering that I had all of the games that I intended to play at the<BR>
time.<BR>
<BR>
> > Bosco's, since the early 80's has had a problem keeping new supplements<BR>
for<BR>
> > the major lines in stock. However, they've always had a good selection<BR>
of<BR>
> > new games, until about the last 4 months. Funny, that corresponds with<BR>
> > Peter Newman quitting.<BR>
<BR>
Peter Newman responded:<BR>
> [The following polemic reflects my own opinion and is not<BR>
> necessarily the opinion of any others including my former<BR>
> employers - on the other hand, IMNSHO, it is a pretty<BR>
> good description of the state of the US gaming business.]<BR>
<BR>
<Major snippage for the sake of space><BR>
<BR>
Hey Peter,<BR>
<BR>
    I've done some "small business" retailing of my own and I have to admit<BR>
that you hit just about everything that I could think of right on the head<BR>
with<BR>
that response.<BR>
    Except- add in the fact that in many areas the buyers are comic or CCG<BR>
enthusiasts rather than RPGers and it often compounds those problems<BR>
because the buyer is not familiar with what's hot and what's not.<BR>
<BR>
Good gaming.<BR>
<BR>
Jesse.<BR>
vanquer@email.msn.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 14:08:25 -0800<BR>
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Drop Tanks<BR>
<BR>
At 7:49 AM +1000 3/29/00, Katharine Whitchurch wrote:<BR>
>  > From: Jason Postma <JasonP@i-link.net><BR>
>  > Subject: RE: Drop Tanks<BR>
>  ><BR>
>  > If the concept behind drop tanks is sound (that is, pump fuel into the<BR>
>  > tanks, eject the tanks, then jump), here's another idea - in-system tugs.<BR>
><BR>
><stuff deleted><BR>
><BR>
>  > Such a system could drastically change parts of the Traveller Universe, so<BR>
>  > IMTU there must be something wrong with the whole idea of Drop Tanks<BR>
>  > (haven't figured out what yet, but I will give it some thought).<BR>
><BR>
>Just up the misjump chances. A misjump chance of 0.5% will destroy the<BR>
>usuability of drop tanks, fuel tankers etc in commercial roles, but allow<BR>
>them for military deep-penetration raids (where an additional 0.5% chance of<BR>
>loss is rounding error). Then it's a solved problem.<BR>
<BR>
Mitigates, doesn't solve.  If you make the %age whatever it<BR>
would that most commercial traffic wouldn't use it (and I<BR>
don't know if its 0.5% or where that number came from), you still<BR>
have people selling them for high profit ventures and the<BR>
military is going to want the ability to use them for all<BR>
its ships (being able to jump further behind lines or<BR>
jump in with full tanks is well worth the risk).  You also<BR>
would have jump-12 routes across rifts (if you are linking<BR>
two areas together, one or two jumps at a higher risk is<BR>
going to be acceptable compared to no trade at all).<BR>
<BR>
You also have to arbitrarily create a risk that "just<BR>
happens" to have a certain risk and for some reason<BR>
can't be solved.  For me, that leaves a bad taste in my<BR>
mouth.<BR>
<BR>
Part of the problem is that the limitation on having to<BR>
carry your own fuel is so fundamental that even if you<BR>
think you have taken care of the important uses, more<BR>
are going to pop up.  And trying to constrain it so<BR>
that it is useful to PC, but no large segement of<BR>
society (and contraining it so that research can't change<BR>
that) is going to be arbitrary.<BR>
<BR>
______________________________<BR>
summers@alum.mit.edu<BR>
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 16:09:51 -0600<BR>
From: Eris Reddoch <eris@pcola.gulf.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Landgrab: Notes on building Heya<BR>
<BR>
"Douglas E. Berry" wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> >Out of curiosity, why did you change the star classes?<BR>
<BR>
> I just don't like really big stars.  Just personal preference.<BR>
<BR>
"Und vi is't zat, Herr Berry?  Dun't liken ze bigg'uns, ya? "<BR>
<BR>
> That and the<BR>
> night before I started this, the roommates rented "When Worlds Collide".  :)<BR>
<BR>
Oh, well,  *that's* different then. <g><BR>
<BR>
> >>My next problem was that Heya is listed as having a dense atmosphere.  Hard<BR>
> >>to justify on such a small planet. I fudged the die rolls to give the world<BR>
> >>a density of 5.4g/cc. Even with that, the best I could manage was an<BR>
> >>atmospheric pressure of 1.2 standard. Oh, well. That's still pretty good<BR>
> >>for a world with only .67 gravity.<BR>
<BR>
Why not boost it to 6.0+ g/cc? Make it a heavy metal world...heavy Sternmetal,<BR>
maybe? <g>  "Hey-ya!!"...no that sounds more like Miss Piggy.<BR>
<BR>
> So I threw the old book out. BtC states that the world produces vast<BR>
> amounts of cereal grains.  There are obvious markets in the subsector. So I<BR>
> went with that idea.  The old Sternmetal grant was just a piece of color.<BR>
><BR>
> >Except for the rebels, of course.<BR>
><BR>
> Once again, I threw the book out (Eris has taken over my brain.)<BR>
<BR>
Whispering in your mind you hear, "Thoooow the booook out, Penguin Boy. Heresy<BR>
*is* good!"<BR>
<BR>
> Rebels are a dime a dozen in the Marches. I wanted something different. To<BR>
> be honest, I like villains who are painted in shades of grey. So I brought<BR>
> in my Vargr refugees.  Yes, by 1120 they run massive criminal organizations<BR>
> on Heya, but only because they are an oppressed minority one step above<BR>
> slavery!<BR>
<BR>
Psionic Vargr Nostra with a firm grip on the music industry throughout the<BR>
Marches...<BR>
<BR>
> Once I started down the path of heresy, there was no turning back!<BR>
<BR>
Muhahahaha! And another one bites the dust...<g><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Eris,<BR>
    Heretic to the Stars!!!<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 16:15:53 -0600<BR>
From: Stormhound <stormhnd@fidnet.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Trains, planes and automobiles<BR>
<BR>
Ian Whitchurch, cleverly disguised as Katharine, wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> >  And we'll get rid of trains, planes, and automobiles (along with any<BR>
> > means of transportation built by Famille Spofulam).<BR>
><BR>
> Funny you should mention that.<BR>
><BR>
> Ditzie's latest project (after ensuring the obsolescence of the CPR gun) is<BR>
> another Export Markets job.<BR>
<BR>
    Perhaps after that we can talk Ditzie into creating a grav-house. (g)  (We<BR>
could always put a turret or something on it so it goes zappity-zap-zap-zappie<BR>
like she likie-wikes.  A handy way of discouraging troublesome neighbors...or of<BR>
reminding them to bring back the hedge trimmer.)<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
Stormhound<BR>
DNRC Ombudsman for Induhvidual Affairs, Holder of Past Knowledge<BR>
Come visit my web page at http://www.fidnet.com/~stormhnd<BR>
Or my new Amateur Radio web page at http://www.qsl.net/kc0ekv<BR>
Or my JN6 course design page at http://www.fidnet.com/~stormhnd/golfpage.htm<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 15:17:54 -0700<BR>
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Nebula pix<BR>
<BR>
Check out:<BR>
<BR>
http://oposite.stsci.edu/pubinfo/pictures.html<BR>
<BR>
Which is the hubble picture archive. Lots of good stuff there.<BR>
<BR>
As to commercial uses, I dunno, but they have links there for asking<BR>
about such stuff.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Sword-Worlder wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> Fellow citizens,<BR>
> <BR>
> I am in need of an image of a red nebula.  It needs to be fairly bright and<BR>
> contrasty.  It is to be the background for an ad banner, so I'll need use<BR>
> permission, as well.  Any ideas?<BR>
> <BR>
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^<BR>
> Colin Michael, WebDev<BR>
> www.downport.com<BR>
> The Traveller Domain<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Bruce Johnson<BR>
University of Arizona<BR>
College of Pharmacy<BR>
Information Technology Group<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 17:20:25 -0500<BR>
From: "DaveShayne" <daveshayne@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2202<BR>
<BR>
>Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 23:20:01 -0900<BR>
>From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
>Subject: Re:  Trav Filk<BR>
><BR>
>"DaveShayne" <daveshayne@email.msn.com> wrote<BR>
><BR>
>> I've got the first two phrases I think.<BR>
>><BR>
>>It's fifteen-hundred on a sevenday as the free trader crowd stumbles in<BR>
>>They're looking for cargoes and passengers over shots of Denebian gin.<BR>
>><BR>
>> And that's as far as I can go untill I can get my sister to email me the<BR>
>> lyrics to the origonal (need it for scansion comparison yaknow.)<BR>
><BR>
>Why?<BR>
><BR>
>Just go to your favorite search site & type in Billy Joel<BR>
>Song Lyrics or the songs title to find the lyrics. It's<BR>
>bound to be on the web.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Because I don't feel like wading through a thousand fan sights<BR>
looking for a good transcription of the lyrics. Between work, following<BR>
this list, and the three or four other projects I have swirling around<BR>
I don't have the time. Besides my sister has the lyrics and is more<BR>
than willing to send them to me.<BR>
<BR>
Dave Shayne<BR>
<BR>
"Now the workers have struck for fame<BR>
    cuz Lennon's on sale again." - David Bowie<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 15:03:14 -0500<BR>
From: "Chauncey Smith" <csmith@ICDC.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Classification of RPG's<BR>
<BR>
The original post wasn't about weather we liked the game or not but it had<BR>
to do with a way to talk about the games and the mechanics they use.<BR>
but I have a similar classifications my self for some games.<BR>
<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
From: Smith, Walter <SmithW@hartwick.edu><BR>
To: 'traveller@lists.imagiconline.com' <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Date: Monday, March 27, 2000 11:29 PM<BR>
Subject: re: Classification of RPG's<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>Here's how I classify RPG's, in descending order:<BR>
><BR>
>1) Fun to read *and* fun to play.<BR>
>2) Fun to play.<BR>
>3) Fun to read.<BR>
>4) Looks nice on my shelf.<BR>
>5) Doesn't look nice on my shelf, but I have closet space.<BR>
>6) Not worth the closet space.<BR>
><BR>
>All else, as von Richtofen said, is rubbish. <G><BR>
><BR>
>Walt Smith<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 23:32:44 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: re: ACQ - How to get it?<BR>
<BR>
At 7:06 -0500 28/3/00, Holger Kadlez wrote:<BR>
>Fellow sophonts,<BR>
><BR>
>By now I have heared enough of above mentioned product<BR>
>to make me _really_ interested.  Unfortunatly, one of<BR>
>the biggest question remains unanswered for me:<BR>
>   How and where to get it ?<BR>
><BR>
>Please could a kind soul give me a hand here ?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
ACQ will be available from BITS and in the UK distribution chain <BR>
soon. North American distribution at the moment is dependent upon SJG <BR>
ordering the product.<BR>
<BR>
Please do not swamp SJ Games with requests for the book as it has <BR>
been offered to them and orders etc take time to raise and so on. As <BR>
usually, either SJ Games' Agents or our own will tell you when this <BR>
starts happening.<BR>
<BR>
As soon as a receive my copy there will be screenshots etc on the <BR>
BITS website. I will let you know when this happens. I don't have a <BR>
copy as the limited numbers we took to Hebden Bridge UK Traveller Con <BR>
sold out and we decided it was better that the interested buyers had <BR>
copies before me. Some of them may be prompted to review the rules <BR>
here if asked nicely.<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
BITS Webmaster<BR>
<BR>
- -------------Dom Mooney---webmaster@bits.org.uk----------------<BR>
                  BITS - British Isles Traveller Support.<BR>
  http://www.bits.org.uk/              mailto:bits@bits.org.uk<BR>
Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
GURPS is a registered trademark of Steve Jackson Games, Inc.<BR>
BITS and CORE are trademarks of BITS UK Limited.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 23:28:48 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: RE: wooden starships was RE: Fencing in Traveller<BR>
<BR>
At 16:31 -0500 28/3/00, "Mark Preston" <mark@mpreston.demon.co.uk> wrote:<BR>
>Umm, no Dom - I mean Bob Shaw's books. Honest.<BR>
<BR>
oops. Snipped wrong bit of post.<BR>
<BR>
'pologies.<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 23:23:55 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Contract Law 101<BR>
<BR>
At 10:53 -0500 28/3/00, Derrick Jones wrote:<BR>
>In response to:<BR>
> >>several matters. Not that this is a problem, as Andy is one Froopy Dude!<BR>
><BR>
>Dom Mooney wrote.....<BR>
> >Err, can you translate that from the American to English?<BR>
><BR>
>Err, Dom. Here if I hold the rock up like this, you can climb back <BR>
>underneath it.<BR>
>Shame on you.........<BR>
<BR>
I only do Near-C Rocks.<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 23:04:05 +0200<BR>
From: Volker Greimann <volker@greimann.de><BR>
Subject: Re: EW & Black Curtain<BR>
<BR>
At 17:21 28.03.00, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> >Ob Trav: this is obvious. A noble PC gives his/her word despite the<BR>
> >repercussions...<BR>
>Helmut hault-Kohl II?<BR>
SPEW!!!<BR>
Damn, that was a close one. Just a near miss.<BR>
- ---<BR>
Volker A. Greimann<BR>
greimann@geocities.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 17:43:29 EST<BR>
From: Damage169@cs.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2204<BR>
<BR>
Peez writes:<BR>
<BR>
>   I hope that you will forgive me for picking a nit, but 50 miles is<BR>
>   only a little closer to 100 km than it is to 50 km (it is 80 km).<BR>
<BR>
Sorry for the error, I am an unrepentant imperialist. Except for 2 L. bottles <BR>
of soda and 5 mm. leads in my mechanical pencil, I don't often deal with <BR>
metric. I think I was going off of a joke a comic told once about how when he <BR>
got to Canada in his car, he loved it because all of the speed limits went <BR>
from 55 in the US to 100 in Canada. The police officer that pulled him over <BR>
told him the difference while writing the ticket.<BR>
<BR>
ObTrav: PCs have difficulty on a border or non-Imperial world due to lack of <BR>
knowledge of local measurements, especially if a non-engineer is sent off to <BR>
get spare parts for anything ("Well, it LOOKED like it would fit.").<BR>
<BR>
>  >"If it's stupid but it works, it isn't stupid."<BR>
>  <BR>
>   Does that include me?  Some people have called me stupid, but I work...<BR>
>  <BR>
>  :)<BR>
>  Peez<BR>
<BR>
Don't know, never met you. :)  I normally give the source for any quotes I <BR>
give, but I've heard this one from so many different sources it really makes <BR>
no difference if I do or don't. I was running short of time and just sent it <BR>
off.<BR>
<BR>
Doug Grimes <BR>
"We could at least have a cease-fire long enough to loot the dead and <BR>
wounded."<BR>
- ----------------------------------------Gil the Treacherous, Living Steel RPG <BR>
"KViSR Rocks"<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 14:58:41<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Flag Stoppages<BR>
<BR>
At 03:53 PM 3/28/2000 -0600, you wrote:<BR>
>> -----Original Message-----<BR>
>> From: Douglas E. Berry [mailto:gridlore@pop.mindspring.com]<BR>
<BR>
>> "Honestly, sir. I didn't hear the music!"<BR>
><BR>
>And what about that cannon?<BR>
<BR>
Feh. It fires at the end of the ceremony, IIRC. And by that time you are<BR>
well on your way to the fleshpots and bacterial breeding grounds of Victory<BR>
Drive.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 14:32:28 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Contract Law 101<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> On Tue, 28 Mar 2000, Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
>> In mail you write:<BR>
>> <BR>
>> > How would tasks/favors/boons done for "free" translate it to "contracts" <BR>
> in<BR>
>> > certain cultures in traveller. <BR>
>> <BR>
>> A culture that had gone overboard on Ayn Rand's philosophy (or certain<BR>
>> types of "libertarian" philosophy) might well provide *anything* for<BR>
>> free. Ask someone what time it is and get the response "That'll cost<BR>
>> you a credit..."<BR>
><BR>
> One short story I read many years ago was 'Any Then There Were None',<BR>
> from a collection of the Golden Age (30s'/40's).  Sorry, I can't<BR>
> remember the author.<BR>
<BR>
Erik Frank Russell. "And Then There Were None". Collected in "The Great<BR>
Explosion".<BR>
<BR>
> It tells the story of a 'navy' ship landing on some remote planet<BR>
> where they, I think, need to make repairs before they can lift of<BR>
> again.<BR>
<BR>
Actually, they'd been sent out to try to contact a bunch of the<BR>
colonies established some time before. There'd been some sort of<BR>
collapse back on Earth after the "great explosion" of colonies. <BR>
<BR>
The book mentioned above has the stories of their previous recontacts<BR>
(none of which worked very well :-) as well as this final one.<BR>
<BR>
> When they start interacting with the locals in the nearby town, to<BR>
> buy supplies and stuff, they are told they own an 'Ob'.  They planet<BR>
> had no currency other than an honour based 'Obligation' currency.<BR>
<BR>
There's also some confusion over the expression "myob". They get told<BR>
this several times.<BR>
<BR>
> One character repays an Ob by unloading some boxes in the back yard<BR>
> for the shopkeeper.  Another is told to go see someone else to whom<BR>
> the shopkeeper owes an Ob, transfering the Ob.<BR>
<BR>
And gets the setup explained to him. Including being informed that<BR>
"myob" has nothing to do with "obs". It's an acronym for "Mind Your Own<BR>
Business". <BR>
<BR>
The culture's basic principle is expressed by a common plaque:<BR>
<BR>
			FREEDOM<BR>
			  --<BR>
			I won't!<BR>
<BR>
As it's explained, they feel that freedom consists of the ability to<BR>
say "I won't". <BR>
<BR>
They are also pacifists for the most part. <BR>
<BR>
> One of the local does tell the story of how, a long time ago, one<BR>
> individual tried to abuse this system by never repaying his Obs.  He<BR>
> was eventually hunted down, after being run out of a number of towns,<BR>
> and strung up from a tree.<BR>
<BR>
Given that a major point was that these folks were pacifists, I think<BR>
you have that wrong. My memory *does* agree that he died. But if he was<BR>
killed, it was more likely someone defending themself from an attack.<BR>
<BR>
> Incase your wondering about the title, this society seemed to inspire a <BR>
> /very/ high desertion rate among the ships crew.<BR>
<BR>
> All in all a fantastic story, one of the earliest space SFs I read.<BR>
<BR>
All of Russell's stuff is pretty good, if you can find it. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2206<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2207</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
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Traveller-digest      Tuesday, March 28 2000      Volume 1999 : Number 2207<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: GRIP Traveller modules<BR>
Re: GMSound Software<BR>
Re: TML Landgrab: Collace<BR>
RE: Drop Tanks<BR>
Re: Drop Tanks<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2204<BR>
Re: GMSound Software<BR>
Re: Book 8 Robots & MT<BR>
Re: Drop Tanks<BR>
re:  Twilight's Filk <BR>
Re: Adventure ideas in dysfunctional cultures <BR>
McGuffin<BR>
Re: Landgrab: Notes on building Heya<BR>
Re: Stellar Data question-- can "habitable" worlds exist around M-V stars?<BR>
Re: McGuffin<BR>
Re: Officers with their naught poking bits<BR>
re: Songs<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 14:44:14 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: GRIP Traveller modules<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>>Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 16:58:58 -0800<BR>
>>From: "Luther Martin" <martin@ksarul.com><BR>
>>Subject: GRIP Traveller modules<BR>
>><BR>
>>I noticed that two GRIP (http://www.rpgrealms.com/Traveller/) modules are<BR>
>>available for CT: The Kinunir, and Research Station Gamma. Has anyone seen<BR>
>>these? Good? Bad?<BR>
><BR>
>   These appear to be reprints of the CT modules in electronic format for<BR>
> on-line gaming (that seems to make sense...). Interesting. Presumably the<BR>
> Kinunir deckplans are there as a *.GIF, which is worth a few bucks just to<BR>
> scale them up and feed them through the largest printer you can find :)<BR>
><BR>
>   Heck, I'm tempted to buy the module just to find out if that works...<BR>
<BR>
Personally, I'd like to see plans in a scalable *vector* format. Then<BR>
you can feed them into a *plotter*. Since even my "tiny" HP-7475A can<BR>
do 11x17 (B-size), this is a not to be ignored option. <BR>
<BR>
And I'd love to see how some of the *big* ship plans (or world maps)<BR>
look done on an E sized plotter.<BR>
<BR>
Paper sizes:<BR>
A = 8.5" x 11"<BR>
B = 11" x 17"<BR>
C = 17" x 22"<BR>
D = 22" x 34"<BR>
E = 34" x 44"<BR>
<BR>
As far as I know, there is no "F" size!<BR>
<BR>
But you have to admit that an E sized map or plan would nicely cover<BR>
that dining rom table. :-)<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 14:26:43 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: GMSound Software<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> On Behalf Of Leonard Erickson<BR>
>> In mail you write:<BR>
>><BR>
>> > Brothers and Sisters of the TML,<BR>
>> ><BR>
>> > In my never-ending quest for quality GM-assistant software, I decided it<BR>
>> > would be nice to have a program to play an assortment of wave files<BR>
>> > quickly and easily.  After searching in vain for such a program,<BR>
>><BR>
>> You should have asked here. I have two such programs, both run in *DOS*.<BR>
><BR>
> Is the fact that they run in DOS supposed to be a good thing ?<BR>
<BR>
Yes, it means they are less likely to crash, less demanding of<BR>
resources, and will run under DOS, Windows and OS/2. :-)<BR>
<BR>
Mac users are on their own.<BR>
<BR>
> Damn OS dependant software !<BR>
><BR>
> I'll have to write a Java version.<BR>
> Should only take an  hour or so.<BR>
> <grin><BR>
<BR>
Yeah, right. And that makes it *unusable* under DOS, since there's no<BR>
Java support for "old" OSes like that. <BR>
<BR>
Also, "OS independent" means "resource hog on all OSes". Doesn't<BR>
anybody write *optimized* code anymore?<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 17:30:28 -0600<BR>
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: TML Landgrab: Collace<BR>
<BR>
Donald McKinney wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Actually, the relationship between:<BR>
><BR>
> Collace, client state of the Imperium<BR>
> and<BR>
> Trexalon, client state of the Sword Worlds<BR>
><BR>
> is revealed in Double Adventure 6: Divine Intervention...<BR>
<BR>
Thanks for the tip.  I'll look forward.<BR>
<BR>
It makes the comments about Binges even more problematic.<BR>
<BR>
bloo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 16:46:38 -0700<BR>
From: Jason Postma <JasonP@i-link.net><BR>
Subject: RE: Drop Tanks<BR>
<BR>
It's the same sort of idea that the designers of Star Fleet Battles always<BR>
use - they do not accept rules changes that allow ships to do amazing things<BR>
with a die roll telling them if they blow up or not - their idea is that<BR>
it's no fun to have a game decided entirely by the dice, and such things<BR>
usually give such and advantage that they eventually become SOP.<BR>
<BR>
If I were to raise the misjump chance, there's no way that would stop the<BR>
Players and other desperate people from still using them, and the advantages<BR>
are enough that small risks aren't going to deter anyone.  There has to be<BR>
something wrong enough with the idea that no one will want to use it.<BR>
Either using them gets seriously dangerous (as in MOST if not ALL of the<BR>
jumps are misjumps and/or destroyed ships), or they just plain don't work.<BR>
<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
From: David P. Summers [mailto:summers@alum.mit.edu]<BR>
Sent: Tuesday, March 28, 2000 3:08 PM<BR>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Drop Tanks<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
At 7:49 AM +1000 3/29/00, Katharine Whitchurch wrote:<BR>
>  > From: Jason Postma <JasonP@i-link.net><BR>
>  > Subject: RE: Drop Tanks<BR>
>  ><BR>
>  > If the concept behind drop tanks is sound (that is, pump fuel into the<BR>
>  > tanks, eject the tanks, then jump), here's another idea - in-system<BR>
tugs.<BR>
><BR>
><stuff deleted><BR>
><BR>
>  > Such a system could drastically change parts of the Traveller Universe,<BR>
so<BR>
>  > IMTU there must be something wrong with the whole idea of Drop Tanks<BR>
>  > (haven't figured out what yet, but I will give it some thought).<BR>
><BR>
>Just up the misjump chances. A misjump chance of 0.5% will destroy the<BR>
>usuability of drop tanks, fuel tankers etc in commercial roles, but allow<BR>
>them for military deep-penetration raids (where an additional 0.5% chance<BR>
of<BR>
>loss is rounding error). Then it's a solved problem.<BR>
<BR>
Mitigates, doesn't solve.  If you make the %age whatever it<BR>
would that most commercial traffic wouldn't use it (and I<BR>
don't know if its 0.5% or where that number came from), you still<BR>
have people selling them for high profit ventures and the<BR>
military is going to want the ability to use them for all<BR>
its ships (being able to jump further behind lines or<BR>
jump in with full tanks is well worth the risk).  You also<BR>
would have jump-12 routes across rifts (if you are linking<BR>
two areas together, one or two jumps at a higher risk is<BR>
going to be acceptable compared to no trade at all).<BR>
<BR>
You also have to arbitrarily create a risk that "just<BR>
happens" to have a certain risk and for some reason<BR>
can't be solved.  For me, that leaves a bad taste in my<BR>
mouth.<BR>
<BR>
Part of the problem is that the limitation on having to<BR>
carry your own fuel is so fundamental that even if you<BR>
think you have taken care of the important uses, more<BR>
are going to pop up.  And trying to constrain it so<BR>
that it is useful to PC, but no large segement of<BR>
society (and contraining it so that research can't change<BR>
that) is going to be arbitrary.<BR>
<BR>
______________________________<BR>
summers@alum.mit.edu<BR>
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in<BR>
California.)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 16:09:57 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Drop Tanks<BR>
<BR>
Jason Postma writes:<BR>
> If I were to raise the misjump chance, there's no way that would stop the<BR>
> Players and other desperate people from still using them, and the<BR>
> advantages are enough that small risks aren't going to deter anyone. <BR>
<BR>
It will stop the major setting-disrupting effect, which is use of drop<BR>
tanks in commercial shipping.  Also, if it isn't useful for commercial<BR>
shippping, drop tanks and drop tank attachments will tend to be hard to get,<BR>
which will prevent most players from using them.<BR>
<BR>
> There has to be something wrong enough with the idea that no one will want<BR>
> to use it. Either using them gets seriously dangerous (as in MOST if not ALL<BR>
> of the jumps are misjumps and/or destroyed ships), or they just plain don't<BR>
> work. <BR>
It depends.  It doesn't really disrupt the setting as long as it isn't viable<BR>
for non-emergency use.<BR>
<BR>
> >Just up the misjump chances. A misjump chance of 0.5% will destroy the<BR>
> >usuability of drop tanks, fuel tankers etc in commercial roles, but allow<BR>
> >them for military deep-penetration raids (where an additional 0.5% chance<BR>
> of<BR>
> >loss is rounding error). Then it's a solved problem.<BR>
> <BR>
> Mitigates, doesn't solve.  If you make the %age whatever it<BR>
> would that most commercial traffic wouldn't use it (and I<BR>
> don't know if its 0.5% or where that number came from), you still<BR>
> have people selling them for high profit ventures and the<BR>
> military is going to want the ability to use them for all<BR>
> its ships (being able to jump further behind lines or<BR>
> jump in with full tanks is well worth the risk).  You also<BR>
> would have jump-12 routes across rifts (if you are linking<BR>
> two areas together, one or two jumps at a higher risk is<BR>
> going to be acceptable compared to no trade at all).<BR>
<BR>
0.5% means that a ship will have an average lifespan of about 200 jumps.<BR>
Standard ships have a reasonable lifespan of 2000+ jumps, which means<BR>
that your transport costs were just upped by an order of magnitude.<BR>
> <BR>
> You also have to arbitrarily create a risk that "just<BR>
> happens" to have a certain risk and for some reason<BR>
> can't be solved.  For me, that leaves a bad taste in my<BR>
> mouth.<BR>
<BR>
Why?  It makes sense that drop tanks might be touchy -- at least as risky<BR>
as jumping within 100D.  Perhaps with research this could be resolved, but<BR>
then perhaps the 100d problem should be fixable too.<BR>
it will eventually be solved.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 01:14:51 +0100<BR>
From: "Matthew Bond" <mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2204<BR>
<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
From: Damage169@cs.com <Damage169@cs.com><BR>
<snip>>Sorry for the error, I am an unrepentant imperialist. Except for 2 L.<BR>
bottles<BR>
>of soda and 5 mm. leads in my mechanical pencil<BR>
<BR>
I hope you have a mechanical arm to lift your mechanical pencil, 'cos that's<BR>
one BIG pencil <g><BR>
<BR>
Or did you mean .5mm... ;-)<BR>
<BR>
Matt<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 17:19:54 -0700<BR>
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: GMSound Software<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> Also, "OS independent" means "resource hog on all OSes". Doesn't<BR>
> anybody write *optimized* code anymore?<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
It truly depends on what you mean by 'resource hog' If you mean,<BR>
'doesn't run on an 8-bit chip with 64k of RAM and 5 mb disk space' then<BR>
the answer is 'Yes' because developers have to get product out the door.<BR>
(and likely you're running on something like that because you're asking<BR>
about DOS)<BR>
<BR>
OTOH, computing resources are cheap, and only going to get cheaper.<BR>
Moore's law and all that. This is the only wayb we can take the first<BR>
'platform independent' steps we're taking today.<BR>
<BR>
Finally, Java isn't all that big a hog, no more so than, say, Windows or<BR>
the Mac OS. It's just that _most_ people run _applets_ not applications,<BR>
which have a lot of slowdown with the html browser wrapper around it. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Bruce Johnson<BR>
University of Arizona<BR>
College of Pharmacy<BR>
Information Technology Group<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 19:32:55 EST<BR>
From: Ludowick@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Book 8 Robots & MT<BR>
<BR>
Someone asked about the damage points of Book 8 robots, and how <BR>
they relate to MT combat.  (I forget who it was, & since no one else <BR>
replied...)<BR>
<BR>
Book 8 used the CT era damage points.  To convert a robot's damage <BR>
points into MT stats, divide the damage point value calculated in <BR>
Book 8 by 3.5.  Do this for both the inoperative point value, and <BR>
the destroyed point value.<BR>
<BR>
The big problem is that this gives robots more damage points than <BR>
equivalent sized MT vehicles (even with the multiply by 10 rule in <BR>
personal combat from the errata).  An 1000 L robot will have 57/<BR>
143 damage points while a 1 m^3 MT vehicle will have 10/10 damage <BR>
points (minimum value of 1/1, multiplied by 10).  <BR>
<BR>
A possible fix would be to treat robot damage points like those of <BR>
living characters.  The formula would be:<BR>
<BR>
(2 * Stren) + Dext = "Life Force"  ;robots don't have endurance stat in B.8<BR>
<BR>
Then use the "Life Force" to Hits table in the Player's Manual of MT.<BR>
You'll probably have to extrapolate the Hits for higher "Life Force" <BR>
totals, but it is easy; follow the pattern from the table.  Also, don't <BR>
use the multiply by 10 bit from the vehicle errata on robots if you <BR>
do this.<BR>
<BR>
IMTU, I calculate robot strength as chassis volume (in liters) / <BR>
15 + the strength bonus of the strongest type of appendage it has.<BR>
This gives 100 L 'bots a base strength of 7 (they are human sized, <BR>
according to the table).  I don't give the strength bonus for each <BR>
appendage, as it makes Hiver 'bots too burly.  There probably <BR>
should be some bonus for limbs beyond the first, but I haven't hit <BR>
the right figure yet (10% of bonus per extra per limb beyond the <BR>
first? 25%?);  scrooch the formulae around a bit and bang out some <BR>
'bots for YTU, until they have the feel you like for your universe.<BR>
<BR>
:P<BR>
<BR>
Ludowick@aol.com<BR>
                        <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 19:52:36 -0500<BR>
From: "J-Man" <j-man@iname.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Drop Tanks<BR>
<BR>
What about a mis-jump that leaves you in jumpspace permanently?<BR>
___________________________________________________________<BR>
 J-Man<BR>
 ICQ# 2843475<BR>
 New Hampshire - U.S.A.<BR>
 Email : j-man@iname.com<BR>
 Home Page : http://www.gocsystems.com/<BR>
___________________________________________________________<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: "Jason Postma" <JasonP@i-link.net><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Tuesday, March 28, 2000 6:46 PM<BR>
Subject: RE: Drop Tanks<BR>
> If I were to raise the misjump chance, there's no way that would stop the<BR>
> Players and other desperate people from still using them, and the<BR>
advantages<BR>
> are enough that small risks aren't going to deter anyone.  There has to be<BR>
> something wrong enough with the idea that no one will want to use it.<BR>
> Either using them gets seriously dangerous (as in MOST if not ALL of the<BR>
> jumps are misjumps and/or destroyed ships), or they just plain don't work.<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 16:55:54 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: re:  Twilight's Filk <BR>
<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
<BR>
>>Not the epic poem, please!"<BR>
>"We Died".<BR>
<BR>
Not to be confused with "We All Died at Breakaway Station."<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.<BR>
http://im.yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 17:02:52 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Adventure ideas in dysfunctional cultures <BR>
<BR>
From: Laning <laning@wizard.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Adventure ideas in dysfunctional cultures <BR>
<BR>
The Government of the Planet Mongo and its Most Protuberant<BR>
Ruler, Ming the Merciless, wish to clarify for readers of the<BR>
TML that the ongoing discussion of Planet BDSM does not in any<BR>
way refer to or resemble Planet Mongo, except in the most<BR>
superficial elements.  <BR>
<BR>
And of course the use of Mongon leather and fine chains.<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.<BR>
http://im.yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 15:12:35 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: McGuffin<BR>
<BR>
I've come up with an idea for an invention/artifact for players to<BR>
discover. It'll get them really going, but in the end prove a lot less<BR>
useful than they'd hope. (Unless you want to let them turn some of the<BR>
limits into strengths, which I *don't* advise).<BR>
<BR>
Basicly, they'll find a small non-starship drifting somewhere. If they<BR>
are like most players, they'll want to salvage it. This should be in an<BR>
area where humans or some other race has had jump drive for a *long*<BR>
time, and "lost" technology at least once. Say an area where the Long<BR>
Night happened, or someplace near the Darrians, and thus affected by<BR>
*their* tech loss after the Maghiz. The idea is for this to be an<BR>
example of a "lost" technology...<BR>
<BR>
Something doesn't seem right once they get to digging around in it. The<BR>
first thing they'll figure out (other than the fact that it is *old*,<BR>
but not "Ancients old") is that the fuel tankage is almost nonexistent.<BR>
There's enough to run the power plant for a good while, but not enough<BR>
to run the manuever drive for more than an hour or so. <BR>
<BR>
Further digging will revel the following:<BR>
<BR>
1. there's an odd gizmo attached to the fuel tank. <BR>
2. If any of the party has Naval Architect or some other skill relating<BR>
   to the design and construction of ships/small craft, they'll realize<BR>
   that this ship is either a custom design, OR it was a standard<BR>
   design and heavily modified later...<BR>
3. There is no trace of a crew aboard, it looks like the ship was new,<BR>
   and practically unused. There *are* some odd instruments and<BR>
   recording gear up on the bridge.<BR>
4. The recordings can be read, with some difficulty allowing for<BR>
   equipment differences.<BR>
<BR>
Basicly, the ship was sent out as a "test drone" for the gizmo attached<BR>
to the fuel tank. It was being controlled remotely and suddenly the<BR>
control signals quit coming in. It's been drifting ever since. <BR>
<BR>
The recording starts with the ship near an asteroid, in (one of) the<BR>
system's asteroid belts. There are enough distinguishing details that<BR>
it may be located after a long search. <BR>
<BR>
Upon locating the asteroid, it's obvious why the signals stopped.<BR>
There's small crater right where the main airlock for the base was in<BR>
the recordings... <BR>
<BR>
The odds against such a hit are astronomical. But the folks on that<BR>
base seem to have set a galactic record for bad luck. *Nobody* made it<BR>
into a suit in time.<BR>
<BR>
The players will discover that when they explore the base, which is<BR>
somewhat messed up by the blast wave that propogated down the corridors<BR>
from the blast.<BR>
<BR>
They'll be able to recover "paper" records and view many of the<BR>
electronic ones that haven't "gone bad" over the centuries. <BR>
<BR>
The "gizmo" is a teleportation device! But, as they'll find out when<BR>
they dig deeper, it can't teleport *objects*, only atoms and (simple)<BR>
molecules. Well, you can *try* to teleport an object. Push it through<BR>
the "send" field and it all comes out the "recieve" field (think of the<BR>
"field" as being a sheet stretched across an open frame). But it comes<BR>
out as monomolecular *dust*... Not terribly useful. <BR>
 <BR>
The test being run was an attempt to see if it can at least be used to<BR>
remotely fuel ships. <BR>
<BR>
This ought to get the attention of most players. :-)<BR>
<BR>
There *are* more limits. Enough to make it not terribly useful in most<BR>
cases. But few enough that the players can waste all sorts of time and<BR>
money trying for a breakthrough.<BR>
<BR>
Limits:<BR>
1. atoms or molecules *only*. Big complex organic molecules tend to<BR>
   break down into their component molecules in transit (ie protiens<BR>
   tend to come out as amino acids, complex sugars and starches tend to<BR>
   come out as simple sugars, etc)<BR>
2. transport occurs at light speed. So if the ship is a light second<BR>
   away, it'll receive the fuel a second after it is sent.<BR>
3. "field" is one way. <BR>
4. momentum/energy is conserved. So if the ship is moving relative to<BR>
   the sender, the fuel arrives with the velocity of the sender, not<BR>
   that of the ship. Likewise, if the sender is deep in a gravity well,<BR>
   it has to supply extra energy to send to a receiver that isn't in<BR>
   the well. Doing the reverse means the molecules arrive with a<BR>
   kinetic energy (temperature) appropriate to the energy difference<BR>
   (several km/s = thousands of degrees!)<BR>
5. sender and receiver can't stay linked if one is in jump and the<BR>
   other isn't. Nor can they link two ships, both of which are in jump.<BR>
   It may be possible to re-establish a link after coming out of jump<BR>
   in a different system, but being speed of light, it'd take 3.26<BR>
   *years* per parsec of distance to do so. Why bother?<BR>
<BR>
#4 may be worked around after some research (so the velocity/energy<BR>
differences can be handled as power input or output at the<BR>
sender/receiver. None of the other limits are "fixable". <BR>
<BR>
The "best" use I can think of for this would be building a sender into<BR>
a unit that can float deep in a gas giant and allow receiver equipped<BR>
ships to refuel from in orbit instead of having to skim. This *will*<BR>
require some of the "workarounds" for limit 4. Or else a strongly<BR>
armored "receiver chamber" to handle the gas feed coming in at orbital<BR>
velocity (and slowing the ship as it does). <BR>
<BR>
BTW, and idea that is bound to occur to someone is setting up a send<BR>
field across a doorway, as a booby trap. It should work. Just consider<BR>
the the sort of *mess* that will come out the far end. On the positive<BR>
side, there will be *no* way to ID the victim. DNA and other unique<BR>
marker chemicals are too complex to surivive teleport. They'll get<BR>
broken into a soup of individual codons and sugar molecules. But it<BR>
*will* be obvious that a large terran lifeform has been sent thru.<BR>
Presence of stuff like polyester precursors may be enough to indicate<BR>
that clothing was present, and ditto for traces of other artificial<BR>
materials. Still, you may be able to show "reasonable doubt" to a jury.<BR>
<BR>
There's another set of possibilities, but I *don't* recommend allowing<BR>
these unless you want to change your universe beyond recognition. <BR>
<BR>
The idea here is to consider limit 1 as an *advantage*. Why grind up<BR>
ore when you can just teleport it and get it ground as fine as you<BR>
could wish. Of course, this is not suitable for gem ores! Or any other<BR>
"crystal" type material. <BR>
<BR>
That much, the players could use without changing the universe much.<BR>
Just don't let them wonder "Is it possible to teleport just one *kind*<BR>
of atom/molecule?". <BR>
<BR>
If you allow this, things will change in all directions. For example,<BR>
buld a "frame" big enough to shove an asteroid thru and just send<BR>
specific elements on each pass. <BR>
<BR>
And it gets worse from there. I won't describe other possibilities,<BR>
since if I can ever come up with a decent story line, I plan on<BR>
*writing* about the invention of this sort of filed teleporter and the<BR>
uses it can be put to, along with the side effects to culture.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 16:24:14 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Landgrab: Notes on building Heya<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Around 1100 Heya is plagued by guerrillas hostile to the local government.<BR>
> Heya only source of off-planet currency is tourism[*] and the government<BR>
> conceals the extent of the problems and restricts tourists to the <BR>
> relatively safe areas south of the capital. Due to the rebels imports<BR>
> restrictions on weapons are very tight. [TB:129]<BR>
><BR>
> [*] What, no agricultural exports?<BR>
<BR>
Maybe there's no place close enough that needs ag imports badly enough<BR>
for the run to be profitable for a megacorp. Free traders just can't<BR>
*handle* a *significant* amount of ag export cargo. <BR>
<BR>
> The initial survey of Heya is conducted "several centuries" before 1105 and<BR>
> shows it devoid of exploitable resources. Shortly before 1105 it is rumored<BR>
> that the initial report was forged [*], and that extensive and valuable<BR>
> mineral deposits lie hidden in the Hamantt Jungle. [TB:129] <BR>
><BR>
> [*] What in the world for???<BR>
<BR>
Either someone wanted a colony and *didn't* want mines to atract<BR>
outsiders, or someone wanted to be able to "discover" the mines later<BR>
and profit from them before everyone else found out. Obviously, in the<BR>
latter case, something went wrong. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 16:30:51 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Stellar Data question-- can "habitable" worlds exist around M-V stars?<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Now I know we had a lengthy discussion as to how high population, low tech<BR>
> worlds could possibly exist in hostile environments like vacuum worlds, but<BR>
> even vacuum worlds could exist within a habitable orbit to give life a<BR>
> little help.  Anyone have any suggestions as to how, for example, 600,000<BR>
> humans could survive using TL7 technology on a 1,600 km diameter rock with<BR>
> negligible water or atmosphere (Zenopit/Jewell)-- *outside* the habitable<BR>
> region of an M3-V star?  Either I have to fudge the data and say that this<BR>
> tiny rock orbits v-e-r-y close to the star, or come up with something else.<BR>
<BR>
Take a good look at what eskimos do with TL *zero* technology. <BR>
<BR>
TL-7 is what we had 20-30 years ago. <BR>
<BR>
Spinward Marches Campaign shows Zenopit as:<BR>
<BR>
1010 D130546-7   nIn Po De  622Na M8 D<BR>
     ||||||| | | |         |||||  |<BR>
     ||||||| | | |         |||||  +--- M8 *dwarf* (even worse than your data!)<BR>
     ||||||| | | |         ||||+------ non-aligned?<BR>
     ||||||| | | |         |||+------- 2 gas giants<BR>
     ||||||| | | |         ||+-------- 2 asteroid belts<BR>
     ||||||| | | |         |+--------- pop modifier 6<BR>
     ||||||| | | |         +---------- not-zoned<BR>
     ||||||| | | +-------------------- Non-industrial, Poor, Desert<BR>
     ||||||| | +---------------------- no bases<BR>
     ||||||| +------------------------ TL 7<BR>
     ||||||+-------------------------- All firearms except shotguns prohibited<BR>
     |||||+--------------------------- Representative democracy<BR>
     ||||+---------------------------- pop 600,000<BR>
     |||+----------------------------- no surface water<BR>
     ||+------------------------------ very thin atmosphere<BR>
     |+------------------------------- 1600 km diameter<BR>
     +-------------------------------- type D port<BR>
<BR>
So, it's basicly a colder version of Luna, but with a very thin<BR>
atmosphere. Which makes it quite inhabitable, given 1970s technology. <BR>
<BR>
Assume either subsurface ice deposits being mined (heck, given the<BR>
atmosphere, there might even be a permafrost layer!) or importation of<BR>
hydrogen and other gasses from the nearest gas giant. <BR>
<BR>
Closed cycle air and water systems are just about mandatory. <BR>
<BR>
BTW, given the low gravity, if the planet has a "normal" day, building<BR>
a "beanstalk" is well within their capability, since they don't need<BR>
anything stronger than kevlar, and probably can get by with *steel*<BR>
cable. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 20:24:09 -0500<BR>
From: "J-Man" <j-man@iname.com><BR>
Subject: Re: McGuffin<BR>
<BR>
Really cool idea Leonard!  I think I'll use this.<BR>
___________________________________________________________<BR>
 J-Man<BR>
 ICQ# 2843475<BR>
 New Hampshire - U.S.A.<BR>
 Email : j-man@iname.com<BR>
 Home Page : http://www.gocsystems.com/<BR>
___________________________________________________________<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message ----- <BR>
From: "Leonard Erickson" <shadow@krypton.rain.com><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Tuesday, March 28, 2000 6:12 PM<BR>
Subject: McGuffin<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> I've come up with an idea for an invention/artifact for players to<BR>
> discover. It'll get them really going, but in the end prove a lot less<BR>
> useful than they'd hope. (Unless you want to let them turn some of the<BR>
> limits into strengths, which I *don't* advise).<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 17:27:42 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Officers with their naught poking bits<BR>
<BR>
>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
<BR>
>> As for primitive war - Tonight on Fox; Tech 3 Pikes Vs Tech 9<BR>
<BR>
>>Mercs - there will be blood, Blood BLOOD'.<BR>
<BR>
>That sort of thing is why suspect the Imperial Rules of War <BR>
>would have a clause about being restricted to hiring Mercs of <BR>
>your own TL. <BR>
<BR>
No, definitely not.  The Imperial rules of war (IRoW) are not<BR>
about fair fights.  They are about preserving the economic<BR>
prosperity of the whole realm.  TL 3 states should simply not<BR>
get into fights with TL 9 states.  <BR>
<BR>
On the other hand, the IRoW do have a provision prevent this. <BR>
First, the rule against undue off world influence will generally<BR>
work against one TL 3 state hiring TL 9 mercenaries against<BR>
another TL 3 state on the same world.  The TL 9 mercenaries<BR>
themselves will be an undue off world influence.  Likewise, if a<BR>
TL 9 world tries to invade a TL 3 world.  <BR>
<BR>
Numbers are also a factor.  An interesting Magnificent<BR>
Seven/Seven Samurai situation might involve people from a TL 3<BR>
culture hiring a small number -- let's say seven -- of high tech<BR>
mercenaries to help them in a war with some TL 3-4 enemy. <BR>
Hmmm...  maybe I should run that.  <BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.<BR>
http://im.yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 17:30:18 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: re: Songs<BR>
<BR>
>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
<BR>
>Get your revenge by pointing out to him that both can be sung<BR>
to<BR>
>"Stairway to Heaven". Matter of fact "Stairway to Gilligan's <BR>
>Island" (GI words to S2H tune) used to be a regular on Dr. <BR>
>Demento.<BR>
<BR>
Parts of Beowulf can be sung to My Country 'Tis of Thee and<BR>
Stairway to Heaven, but it requires someone who can sing (i.e.,<BR>
not me, but I did know some people in college who found this<BR>
exercise a lot of fun).<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.<BR>
http://im.yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2207<BR>
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Traveller-digest      Tuesday, March 28 2000      Volume 1999 : Number 2208<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Re Classes and Traveller<BR>
Re: GMSound Software<BR>
Re: Gaming is a business! (was re: Classification of Systems)<BR>
Floating Cities...<BR>
Re: McGuffin<BR>
RE: Drop Tanks<BR>
Re: Stellar Data question-- can "habitable" worlds exist around M -V stars?  <BR>
Re: Contract Law 101<BR>
Re: Contract Law 101<BR>
Re: Grav-powered floating cities?<BR>
Re: Grav Powered Floating Cities<BR>
Re: Drop Tanks<BR>
Re: Body armour<BR>
RE: Making energy weapons work in FFS2<BR>
Re: Stellar Data question...<BR>
Re: Landgrab: Cannoniacal Data on Thanber<BR>
Re: Grav Powered Floating Cities<BR>
Re: Traveller 3D maps and Computers at the game table<BR>
Re: Fencing in Traveller<BR>
Re: Making energy weapons work in FFS2<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 17:24:10 -0800<BR>
From: "Jesse LaBranche" <Vanquer@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Re Classes and Traveller<BR>
<BR>
I wrote:<BR>
> > The discussion definitely told me that it's about<BR>
> > time to broaden the categories that I use though.<BR>
<BR>
to which Ben responded:<BR>
> Then it's been a *good* discussion, eh?<BR>
<BR>
    IMO, no discussion is really a bad one.  Arguments<BR>
to me are just a waste of time... Okay someone, go<BR>
ahead and post a one-liner saying "no they aren't" :-)<BR>
<BR>
Later and good gaming.<BR>
<BR>
Jesse.<BR>
vanquer@email.msn.com<BR>
ICQ. 8004143<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 19:38:24 -0600<BR>
From: William Barnett-Lewis <wlewis@mailbag.com><BR>
Subject: Re: GMSound Software<BR>
<BR>
> Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 14:26:43 PST<BR>
> From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
> Subject: Re: GMSound Software<BR>
<BR>
> <BR>
> Yes, it means they are less likely to crash, less demanding of<BR>
> resources, and will run under DOS, Windows and OS/2. :-)<BR>
> <BR>
> Mac users are on their own.<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
Leonard!<BR>
<BR>
Can you say "Virtual PC"? Faster and more stable than the original? Thanks!<BR>
I knew you could... :><BR>
<BR>
William <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Live without fear; your Creator loves you     | William Barnett-Lewis<BR>
as a mother. Go in peace to follow the good   | mailto://wlewis@mailbag.com<BR>
road and may God's blessing be with           |<BR>
you always.                                   |<BR>
St. Claire                                    |<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 17:28:39 -0800<BR>
From: "Jesse LaBranche" <Vanquer@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Gaming is a business! (was re: Classification of Systems)<BR>
<BR>
Danny Moody wrote:<BR>
> I just gotta ask:<BR>
> I lived in AK for the second time from 89-91, and got a great honkin'<BR>
amount of gaming stuff at Bosco's.  My gaming obsession stared with a trip<BR>
to Spenard Hobby way back in 81.<BR>
> There was another game store out in the Muldoon mall - First Empire.  It<BR>
started up in 1990.  Also, IIRC, one (or two) of the guys from Spenard Hobby<BR>
stated a game/hobby shop called Fun For All.<BR>
> Do any of you know what happened to either one of 'em?<BR>
<BR>
    Well, other people here are probably in a lot better light<BR>
to respond for a certainty,  but while I was there it seemed<BR>
that the only really stable game shop in Anchorage was<BR>
Bosco's.<BR>
    I recall two at the Diamond Mall and one at Northway Mall<BR>
that were there when I arrived, but I don't recall what came of<BR>
them.  I know that none of them were very knowledgeable<BR>
about RPGs though- so I quit going to them and stuck with<BR>
Bosco's myself.<BR>
<BR>
Later.<BR>
<BR>
Jesse.<BR>
vanquer@email.msn.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 12:14:21 +1000<BR>
From: "The Roc" <roc@kewl.com.au><BR>
Subject: Floating Cities...<BR>
<BR>
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU><BR>
To: 'TML' <traveller@mpgn.com><BR>
Sent: Wednesday, March 29, 2000 4:59 AM<BR>
Subject: Grav Powered Floating Cities<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> One thing to remember about civilizations with floating cities: they've<BR>
> probably had antigravity technology for *millenia*. They would think no<BR>
> more of putting it under a city - barring expense - than we would think of<BR>
> putting an oil furnace under a house.<BR>
<BR>
Yes, and all grav modules probably wouldn't fail at the same time, their<BR>
would probably be a reasonable redundancy in there also... say at least 50%<BR>
(Isn't that what most multi-engined aircraft designers work on?  I seem to<BR>
remember that from an episode of Wings on Discovery??), meaning that 50% of<BR>
the modules could "safely" fail.<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
> The "suburbs" are probably floating communities as well, or are<BR>
> a short hop away on an air/raft or speeder.<BR>
<BR>
Wasn't there an article in JTAS featuring a grav-city?  I recall a side<BR>
plan-view of this huge floating city with cross-sections showing that the<BR>
"burbs" were build one on top of the other (though I may have gotten that<BR>
from something else!), requiring a walk down the ramps or a ride in the<BR>
lifts/on the travellater.  There was a reason the city was made a floater,<BR>
but I really do not recall what it was.<BR>
<BR>
- -- The Roc<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 18:40:59 -0800<BR>
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)<BR>
Subject: Re: McGuffin<BR>
<BR>
>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
>Subject: McGuffin<BR>
...<BR>
>And it gets worse from there. I won't describe other possibilities,<BR>
>since if I can ever come up with a decent story line, I plan on<BR>
>*writing* about the invention of this sort of filed teleporter and the<BR>
>uses it can be put to, along with the side effects to culture.<BR>
<BR>
  The technology (with more stringent limits) shows up in the version<BR>
of Buck Rogers novelized as a follow-on to Pournelle/Niven's "Lucifers<BR>
Hammer" - author by the name of Nolan, IIRC. Kinda neat, actually, and<BR>
it turns out to be fairly hard SF too.<BR>
<BR>
        Steven Hudson<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 18:41:16 -0800<BR>
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)<BR>
Subject: RE: Drop Tanks<BR>
<BR>
>From: Jason Postma <JasonP@i-link.net><BR>
>Subject: RE: Drop Tanks<BR>
><BR>
>It's the same sort of idea that the designers of Star Fleet Battles always<BR>
>use - they do not accept rules changes that allow ships to do amazing things<BR>
>with a die roll telling them if they blow up or not - their idea is that<BR>
>it's no fun to have a game decided entirely by the dice, and such things<BR>
<BR>
  Narrow salvoes. Next? :)<BR>
<BR>
>If I were to raise the misjump chance, there's no way that would stop the<BR>
>Players and other desperate people from still using them, and the advantages<BR>
>are enough that small risks aren't going to deter anyone.  There has to be<BR>
>something wrong enough with the idea that no one will want to use it.<BR>
>Either using them gets seriously dangerous (as in MOST if not ALL of the<BR>
>jumps are misjumps and/or destroyed ships), or they just plain don't work.<BR>
<BR>
  As already stated, the main thing is to get them off of commercial<BR>
traffic - even 0.5% chance of destruction covers that. IMHO, the best<BR>
thing would be just to hide the entire idea away and ignore it...<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 21:42:11 -0500<BR>
From: "Smith, Walter" <SmithW@hartwick.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Stellar Data question-- can "habitable" worlds exist around M -V stars?  <BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
>BTW, given the low gravity, if the planet has a "normal" day, building <BR>
>a "beanstalk" is well within their capability, since they don't need <BR>
>anything stronger than kevlar, and probably can get by with *steel* <BR>
>cable. <BR>
<BR>
Fascinating.<BR>
<BR>
At what gravities do low-tech beanstalks become possible? I never<BR>
thought of a TL7 beanstalk before.<BR>
<BR>
However, since they can buy anti-grav from nearby worlds, would they<BR>
build a beanstalk? Even after the shipping, a fleet of gravitic<BR>
transports are sure to be a lot cheaper than a beanstalk would be.<BR>
<BR>
Unless they built the beanstalk during a Long Night, and kept it<BR>
going since...<BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 20:42:08 -0600<BR>
From: Bolie Williams IV <bolie@io.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Contract Law 101<BR>
<BR>
At 8:11 AM +0100 3/28/2000, Paul Campbell wrote:<BR>
>One short story I read many years ago was 'Any Then There Were None', from a<BR>
>collection of the Golden Age (30s'/40's).  Sorry, I can't remember the author.<BR>
>It tells the story of a 'navy' ship landing on some remote planet <BR>
>where they, I<BR>
>think, need to make repairs before they can lift of again.  When they start<BR>
>interacting with the locals in the nearby town, to buy supplies and <BR>
>stuff, they<BR>
>are told they own an 'Ob'.  They planet had no currency other than an honour<BR>
>based 'Obligation' currency.  One character repays an Ob by unloading some<BR>
>boxes in the back yard for the shopkeeper.  Another is told to go see someone<BR>
>else to whom the shopkeeper owes an Ob, transfering the Ob.<BR>
><BR>
>One of the local does tell the story of how, a long time ago, one individual<BR>
>tried to abuse this system by never repaying his Obs.  He was <BR>
>eventually hunted<BR>
>down, after being run out of a number of towns, and strung up from a tree.<BR>
><BR>
>Incase your wondering about the title, this society seemed to inspire a /very/<BR>
>high desertion rate among the ships crew.<BR>
><BR>
>All in all a fantastic story, one of the earliest space SFs I read.<BR>
<BR>
I recall this story and I thought that he hung himself because eventually<BR>
no one would do anything for him at all and he became totally isolated<BR>
and ignored.<BR>
<BR>
Bolie IV<BR>
- -- <BR>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<BR>
Bolie Williams IV<BR>
bolie@io.com<BR>
http://www.io.com/~bolie/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 14:48:46 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Contract Law 101<BR>
<BR>
On 28 Mar 00, at 14:32, Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Given that a major point was that these folks were pacifists, I think you<BR>
> have that wrong. My memory *does* agree that he died. But if he was<BR>
> killed, it was more likely someone defending themself from an attack.<BR>
<BR>
They were Gands - followers of Gandhi, as opposed to the earthling <BR>
"Anti-Gands". IIRC the man who never made up his Obs died of cold and <BR>
starvation after the word got out and nobody would do anything for him.<BR>
<BR>
That book had some nice quotes, my favourite being "Strong as a <BR>
thousand Gands, and as smooth as an Earthman's downfall."<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
An pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 14:48:46 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Grav-powered floating cities?<BR>
<BR>
On 28 Mar 00, at 19:09, Ingo Heinscher wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> <BR>
> Hi!<BR>
> <BR>
> I' ve found several references to grav-powered floating cities on<BR>
> High-Tech worlds in Traveller. <BR>
> <BR>
> My question is:<BR>
> <BR>
> Why? I mean, why should anyone build such a city? Every technology can<BR>
> fail, so it's an additional source for desasters. Plus it's not easy to<BR>
> walk to a suburb...<BR>
> <BR>
> I can imagine it _could_ be good for a gas.giant settlement, but then<BR>
> again it would probably be cheaper to build an orbital facility and send<BR>
> special craft for the actual work, whatever ist is.<BR>
> <BR>
> Any suggestions, perhaps even canon sources out there?<BR>
<BR>
One of them, detailed in a Challenge mag (I forget which one), was on a <BR>
world that was all ocean - no land at all. IIRC that world was an <BR>
important source of pharmaceuticals and the city was on gravitics so it <BR>
could move fast enough to aviod the really nasty storms.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
An pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 14:48:46 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Grav Powered Floating Cities<BR>
<BR>
On 28 Mar 00, at 12:59, Luther Martin wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> How much do you suppose a typical city weighs? Even in the Traveller world<BR>
> of abundant energy, it might take way too much energy to keep a grav<BR>
> powered city up, since you will need to overcome the gravity from the<BR>
> planet on a 7x24 basis (or whatever the local time units are). Since I'm<BR>
> at work now, I don't have the time to do a calculation, but my intuition<BR>
> tells me that a lot of energy will be required to keep one of these guys<BR>
> up. On the other hand, it may provide a practical llimit to the size of a<BR>
> floating city.<BR>
<BR>
Use TNE style CG :) It counters (mostly) the gravity in a certain <BR>
volume. Thus mass is nearly irrelevant. However I suspect that even one <BR>
skyscraper would munch a fair bit of power, just because of its size.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
An pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 14:48:46 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Drop Tanks<BR>
<BR>
On 28 Mar 00, at 7:10, Terry Carlino wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> IMTU the difference between "drop tanks" and "demountable tanks" is one of<BR>
> function and support. Drop tanks are intended to be jettisoned via either<BR>
> explosive bolts or some other method that would propel them away from the<BR>
> ship. In other words they can be used without support. Demountable tanks<BR>
> are typically removed by a tug or other service craft. Drop tanks are more<BR>
> or less single use. They are made of cheap materials. (They can be<BR>
> salvaged and reused, but this is icing on the cake. They are not<BR>
> specifically designed for reuse.) Demountable tanks are made of standard<BR>
> materials and are designed for reuse. Drop tanks require special hardpoint<BR>
> mounts, Demountable tanks require external cradles. So basically Drop<BR>
> tanks are only used by the military or for special uses. And As I<BR>
> mentioned in previous posts the tanks are used as described above; carried<BR>
> along through jump.<BR>
<BR>
IMO drop tanks are more than one shot devices, and the only difference <BR>
between them and "demountable" external tanks is the presence of a <BR>
jettison mechanism. FFS1 requires that they be designed as a small <BR>
ship, complete with internal structure, stremlining, etc. This is not a <BR>
cheap form of construction, nor is it the way I'd design a one-use <BR>
throwaway.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
An pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 20:51:15 -0600<BR>
From: Michael Maley <mmaley@home.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Body armour<BR>
<BR>
Thanks for the imput.  I couldn't imagine noble/diplomats putting up<BR>
with hot, uncomfortable body defense.  Also, my wife's pirate character,<BR>
Bette Noire, had a special flex body suit made for formal occasions and<BR>
for liberty planets when battledress just isn't done.<BR>
<BR>
darkhstarr<BR>
<BR>
Ethan Henry wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> If it wasn't for business trips, I'd never post to the TML...<BR>
> <BR>
> Michael Maley <mmaley@home.com> wrote:<BR>
> ><BR>
> > One of the odd things I've noticed in most traveller books is the<BR>
> > overheating problems with most body armours(other than battledress).<BR>
> <BR>
> Flex? Diplo? I smell a T4 player.<BR>
> <BR>
> It is an interesting point though - even for "unpowered" armour like<BR>
> diplo and even basic cloth or mesh, there may be a small power source.<BR>
> Batteries would probably be sufficient to run a Peltier-cooled for a<BR>
> few hours at least, probably a few days by high-TL battery energy<BR>
> densities. I always thought that something like diplo would probably<BR>
> get pretty hot, unless there's a special Gortex(tm)-lined version or<BR>
> something.<BR>
> <BR>
> Peltier coolers, for those not familiar with them, are little semiconductor<BR>
> devices (the exact nature of which escapes me at the moment) that get<BR>
> cool on one side and warm on the other when a current is run through them.<BR>
> <BR>
> Thermodynamics dictates that the hot side gets hotter than cool side gets<BR>
> cool, but as long as you only need a few degrees, they're remarkably<BR>
> efficient and compact little heat pumps. They're hugely popular with<BR>
> people trying to run CPUs at higher than they're rated speeds, where<BR>
> heat dissipation is the primary limiting factor.<BR>
> <BR>
> As for chemical coolers, I'm cure one of the resident chemists can give a<BR>
> run down of various compounds that react exo, uh, endo, hm... that get<BR>
> cold when they react. (I'm not the chemical engineer in the family).<BR>
> <BR>
> The "combat environment suit" in CT used a disposable chemical unit not<BR>
> for cooling, per se, but for supressing the IR signature from the suit's<BR>
> heat exhaust. The CES was never explicitly described as having a powered<BR>
> heat pump, presumably it used some sort of air cooling mechanism with the<BR>
> IR chameleon unit simply cooling the air to the ambient temp. The suit<BR>
> worked exactly the same without the stealth unit, but simply had a huge<BR>
> IR signature in the back somewhere.<BR>
> <BR>
> Ethan<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 20:50:56 -0600<BR>
From: Bolie Williams IV <bolie@io.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Making energy weapons work in FFS2<BR>
<BR>
At 10:55 AM +0100 3/28/2000, Matt Bond wrote:<BR>
>Ian Whitchurch wrote:<BR>
>>  My thinking is that point-defense weapons are mounted on<BR>
>>  ships at TL8, and<BR>
>>  tanks at TL9, so by about TL12 you should have point defense<BR>
>>  systems for<BR>
>>  individual troopers. Bascially, you have a helmet-mounted<BR>
>>  LADAR or other<BR>
>>  sensor systems (stuff coming out of gun barrels is hot - you<BR>
>>  should get away<BR>
>>  with a passive IR sensor, but I'll let Bruce answer that one<BR>
>>  definitivly)<BR>
>>  linked to a small helmet-mounted laser (I'm thinking about a<BR>
>>  20 meter range)<BR>
>>  and it goes "zap" at anything aimed at the user.<BR>
>><BR>
>>  I'll have to play with building a 2 kJ helmet mounted TL12 laser.<BR>
><BR>
>Why bother? At those sorts of ranges and energy, anything explosive will<BR>
>probably still damage you after the PD Laser sets it off, if it's<BR>
>kinetic and is going to hit you, then the laser just turns it into<BR>
>molten metal (if that) that's going to hit you...<BR>
<BR>
I expect that the infantry/cavalry of the future will have an integrated<BR>
point-defense system consisting of vehicle mounted sensors and weapons<BR>
which interact with electronics carried by soldiers to protect them<BR>
from all kinds of weapons (and avoid shooting friendlies).  The US<BR>
wet Navy already does this with groups of ships coordinating anti-missile<BR>
and anti-aircraft fire.  I also expect space Navies to do this as well,<BR>
with some ships armed with lots of PD lasers and others loaded with<BR>
missiles, spinal mounts, or whatever.<BR>
<BR>
Bolie IV<BR>
- -- <BR>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<BR>
Bolie Williams IV<BR>
bolie@io.com<BR>
http://www.io.com/~bolie/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 17:20:00 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Stellar Data question...<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Another possibility is to remember that within a 50 mile (approx. 100<BR>
> km) radius of the main post office on Manhattan Island, New York<BR>
> City, there lives over 20 million people. They live within only a<BR>
> mile of the surface of the planet they live on. Given a 1600 km<BR>
> diameter rock in which to tunnel out pressurized caverns and rooms,<BR>
> 600,000 people is almost an afterthought.<BR>
> Since TL 7 is approximately where we are now,<BR>
<BR>
Excuse me? We are at least TL-8.<BR>
<BR>
> and we have records of<BR>
> people staying in space aboard a TL 6-7 orbital platform ("Mir") for<BR>
> periods of over a year. I see no problem supporting that many people<BR>
> for an extended period, especially with extra-system support. The<BR>
> general tech level may be TL 7, but given half-a-chance I would bet<BR>
> the life-support systems would be as advanced as the system could<BR>
> afford (TL 10-11 at least).<BR>
<BR>
I beg to differ. Life support is the *last* thing that you want to be<BR>
dependent of offworld support for. <BR>
<BR>
On the other hand, large, but not *huge*, populations are *easier* to<BR>
do life support for than small of huge ones. They are big enough for<BR>
various fluctuations to average out, which simplifies design<BR>
considerably. <BR>
<BR>
Life support for this many people can be "farms" and "ponds" rather<BR>
than fancy equipment. Even if said farms/ponds are inside "caves"<BR>
excavated into the rock, you'll just need power and lights. Plus some<BR>
monitoring gear. <BR>
<BR>
In fact, given trends in sewage treatment starting in the 70s, just the<BR>
*sewage treatment* for that many people can likely handle the air<BR>
recycling. That's because the current preffered method involves<BR>
artifical wetlands, with lots of vegetation. They even raise fish in<BR>
the last stage ponds. <BR>
<BR>
I wonder if it'd be easier to farm wheat/corn or to incorporate rice<BR>
paddies into the water treatment system? <BR>
<BR>
In spite of all this "natural" recycling, expect any world without a<BR>
"native" ecosystem to be *real* concerned about import/export of<BR>
anything containing carbon, nitrogen or phosporus (those being the most<BR>
critical life support elements). Oxygen is extractable from rock if<BR>
they need to. And Hydrogen is "critical", but since it's needed for<BR>
fuel, they'll have *some* source, be it subterranean ice or imported<BR>
from asteroids/gas giants. <BR>
<BR>
To build up reserves, there may be port regulations requiring ships to<BR>
dump their "sewage" before leaving port (with exceptions for ships that<BR>
actually recycle the sewage rather than merely extract the water and<BR>
dump the rest in port). And limiting/taxing purchase of "extra"<BR>
food/water over and above what is "needed" for the trip. And even<BR>
"encouraging" a visit to the restroom before boarding ship. <BR>
<BR>
This will puzzle players when they see that food is plentiful, even if<BR>
variety may be a bit limited. The key is that any food produced *and<BR>
consumed* on world goes back into the system. Food, and even "sewage"<BR>
taken off-world is removed from the system. <BR>
<BR>
They'll import foods from off-world as "luxury" items. More expensive<BR>
than local food, but giving consumers access to varieties of food not<BR>
produced on world. For example, beef and milk products are likely to be<BR>
imported. Cattle just *aren't* efficient uses of limited amounts of<BR>
vegetation and water. They also produce *huge* amounts of waste that<BR>
has to be treated (A few hundred head of cattle can produce as much<BR>
sewage as the entire population of that planet!). <BR>
<BR>
Sheep are a maybe. Ditto for pigs. Rabbits, chickens, guinea pigs are<BR>
all food animals that will work out ok in a limited environment. Some<BR>
waterfowl might be compatible with the ware reclamation marshes. Duck<BR>
may be cheaper than chicken!<BR>
<BR>
As noted above, various fruits, vegetables and grains may be more or<BR>
less compatible with the water recycling setup. The ones (like rice?)<BR>
that can be incorporated into the reclamation system will be cheap. the<BR>
others will be expensive in proportion to the amount of space and water<BR>
needed (fertilizer can usually be extracted from one of the early<BR>
stages of the sewage treatment process). <BR>
<BR>
Expect to see lots of "dwarf" fruit trees in pots in living areas and<BR>
maybe even in public areas. Full sized tree-fruit will be either<BR>
imported or raised in special farm areas. Either way, expect it to be<BR>
expensive. <BR>
<BR>
Things like blackberries and raspberries and other "vine" fruits may be<BR>
popular as "wall coverings". <BR>
<BR>
Etiquette regarding picking "public" fruit ought to be interesting.<BR>
Possibly posting of signs indicating if it's ok? Put the sign up when<BR>
the fruit is ripe, take it down if it gets "overgrazed". And if you<BR>
plan to harvest the fruit, rather than share it, the sign never goes<BR>
up. <BR>
<BR>
Pots of things like strawberries might be used as "decorations" also.<BR>
Maybe as "serve yourself" snacks in waiting rooms? Swap out the pots<BR>
with ones in a different part of the "seasonal" cycle, as they start<BR>
getting low on fruit? Probably something that "maintenance" or a "plant<BR>
service" does...<BR>
<BR>
Veggies will be more likely to be found in personal spaces, or on<BR>
farms. Even so, expect that *someone* will drive his friends and<BR>
neighbors nuts by always having entirely too many zuccinni that he's<BR>
trying to give away... :-)<BR>
<BR>
And expect a lot of folks to raise their own rabbits or guinea pigs<BR>
rather than buying commercially raised ones. Usually in families that<BR>
go back to before there *were* commercially raised ones.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 18:01:28 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Landgrab: Cannoniacal Data on Thanber<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> I'm doing Thanber (0717/Querion) for the landgrab.  I have BTC and the T:NE<BR>
> Regency Sourcebook, but I don't have the Traveller Adventure, Fifth Frontier<BR>
> War, or the original SM book.  Anyone know if there are any refrences to<BR>
> Thanber in any of those sources?<BR>
<BR>
SMC<BR>
Thanber<BR>
hex  UPP       notes  PBG   star1  star2<BR>
- ---- --------- ------ ---   -----  -----<BR>
0717 B243653-C nIn Po 210Cs M9 V   M1 D<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 18:20:55 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Grav Powered Floating Cities<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> How much do you suppose a typical city weighs? Even in the Traveller world<BR>
> of abundant energy, it might take way too much energy to keep a grav powered<BR>
> city up, since you will need to overcome the gravity from the planet on a<BR>
> 7x24 basis (or whatever the local time units are). Since I'm at work now, I<BR>
> don't have the time to do a calculation, but my intuition tells me that a<BR>
> lot of energy will be required to keep one of these guys up. On the other<BR>
> hand, it may provide a practical llimit to the size of a floating city.<BR>
<BR>
Actually, it should take *no* energy to keep an object floating. It<BR>
takes energy to *lift* it. But none to *hold* it in place.<BR>
<BR>
Of course, that's in *theory* and assume 100% efficient equipment. So<BR>
in reality, it may take some power to keep things running. But likely<BR>
only a fraction of the energy it took to climb.<BR>
<BR>
And keep in mind that *lowering* the city will *generate* power, which<BR>
may be part of a safety system. If power to the CG is cut off, the<BR>
descent is slowled by feeding back the energy produced by the descent<BR>
into the generators to slow the descent.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 18:26:33 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller 3D maps and Computers at the game table<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>>But if you figure the size of a "subsector" in terms of number of<BR>
>>*systems*, then a 3d subsectr isn't all that big. The maps in both SPIs<BR>
>>"Starforce: Alpha Centauri" and in 2300 AD have several *sectors* worth<BR>
>>of systems, and are only about 25 light years (8 parsecs!) in radius.<BR>
><BR>
> Absolutely true. But imagine a model with more than 50 stars... It wouldn't<BR>
> be very helpful for play, I suppose. <BR>
<BR>
I think it could be useful. It'd be a real bear to *build* though.<BR>
<BR>
>>I'm *running* a Novell server, with a 10-user license. And I plan on<BR>
>>adding a Linux box. :-)<BR>
><BR>
> And you are planning to restrict access to the astrogation program and the<BR>
> few other the players will need? <BR>
<BR>
Novell's security is nice that way. Read only access to data files,<BR>
execute only access to the programs, and drop them into the "game<BR>
shell" at login.<BR>
<BR>
>>> anyway, the<BR>
>>> effort required to install and configure the machines is not to be taken<BR>
>>> lightly.<BR>
>><BR>
>>As I noted, I currently have 3 systems on the LAN. And plan to add more.<BR>
><BR>
> So no problem there. Why don't I like the idea anyway?<BR>
> Conservatism?<BR>
<BR>
Well, if done "wrong", they might as well be logging in from home..<BR>
<BR>
> [snip]<BR>
>>Well, part of my idea was solving the old problem of different<BR>
>>characters being able to notice ("see") different things in the<BR>
>>dungeon. <BR>
>><BR>
>>That's not an issue in traveller. Still, some older PDAs might be a<BR>
>>useful item. Have them set up to be "consoles" and "data terminals for<BR>
>>when characters need to check something.<BR>
><BR>
> Mhm, that directs your session towards LARP. What if you have a player with<BR>
> absolutely no idea about computers who plays a computer tech? Or the other<BR>
> way round?<BR>
<BR>
That's why "icons" do a "Hey, stupid, look at me!" color change and<BR>
flash a lot... (Ok, that's not entirely serious, but it should work) <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 18:32:42 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Fencing in Traveller<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> True, they are in a different universe through most of the series<BR>
> (have you not got to the end yet?)<BR>
<BR>
I wasn't impressed enough to buy even the *second* book.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 18:11:16 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Making energy weapons work in FFS2<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>> I'll have to play with building a 2 kJ helmet mounted TL12 laser.<BR>
><BR>
> Why bother? At those sorts of ranges and energy, anything explosive will<BR>
> probably still damage you after the PD Laser sets it off, if it's<BR>
> kinetic and is going to hit you, then the laser just turns it into<BR>
> molten metal (if that) that's going to hit you...<BR>
><BR>
> Does the targeting system only target projectiles whose trajectories<BR>
> intersect the trooper? If yes, then pepper the ground around him with<BR>
> grenades, after all, they aren't aimed *at* him.<BR>
><BR>
> If they are proximity activated, then either overwhelm them with massed<BR>
> full-auto, shotguns, bags of gravel, frag grenades etc (I assume that<BR>
> there is a finite delay between PD shots as the laser recharges. Unless<BR>
> these troopers have power stations on their backs, I can't see a<BR>
> sustained ROF much over 100 shots per second, which already requires a<BR>
> 200kW generator. This ROF can readily be overwhelmed), or give up and<BR>
> use high-energy or laser weapons against them.<BR>
><BR>
> If they have a targetting threshold, to cut out stuff that can't<BR>
> penetrate, then if the sensors only go by mass, ultra-light<BR>
> hyper-velocity projectiles are the way to go. If the sensors rely on<BR>
> velocity then grenades are back in, as until it explodes it's no<BR>
> different to a rock of the same mass being hurled slowly at the target.<BR>
> If it is a combination of mass and velocity, then there may be a window<BR>
> for small, slow explosives. If not, get out the PGMP's and Lasers again.<BR>
<BR>
Or breed bees with one shot lethal stings who are attracted to the body<BR>
odor (or other chemical signature) of the enemy troops. Or maybe they<BR>
are atracted to the distinctive color (in the UV range) of the fabric<BR>
the uniforms are made of. Or maybe it's the polarization of the<BR>
reflected light (yes, bees can *see* light polarization, and no, I<BR>
can't imagine what it "looks like" to them).<BR>
<BR>
Any PD that tries taking out bees is gonna be *way* to busy to deal<BR>
with bullets. :-)<BR>
<BR>
Oh yeah, it's a good thing Traveller bio-tech is so limited. Otherwise<BR>
it'd be *way* to easy to design diseases that only tragetted folks with<BR>
offworld DNA...<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2208<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2209</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
Date:	3/28/00 10:41:17 PM Pacific Standard Time<BR>
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Traveller-digest     Wednesday, March 29 2000     Volume 1999 : Number 2209<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Grav Powered Floating Cities<BR>
Re: Stellar Data question-- can "habitable" worlds exist around M	-V stars?  <BR>
Re: McGuffin<BR>
Re: Stellar Data question...<BR>
Re: McGuffin<BR>
Re: Grav Powered Floating Cities<BR>
TML Landgrab and GT:FI -  Leander Questions<BR>
Re: More Cool Maps<BR>
Re: Flag Stoppages<BR>
Thanks for RPG Classification Discussion!<BR>
Pencils<BR>
Re: Drop Tanks<BR>
Re: GMSound Software<BR>
Re: Trains, planes and automobiles<BR>
The ecologies of space rocks with people on them<BR>
RE: Grav Powered Floating Cities<BR>
RE: Drop Tanks<BR>
Re: Flag Stoppages<BR>
Re: Adventure ideas in dysfunctional cultures<BR>
Re: TML Landgrab<BR>
Re: Operation BRAG<BR>
Re: Maps Page Updated<BR>
Re: Contract Law 101<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 18:17:55 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Grav Powered Floating Cities<BR>
<BR>
> One thing to remember about civilizations with floating cities: they've<BR>
> probably had antigravity technology for *millenia*. They would think no<BR>
> more of putting it under a city - barring expense - than we would think of <BR>
> putting an oil furnace under a house.<BR>
><BR>
> The "suburbs" are probably floating communities as well, or are<BR>
> a short hop away on an air/raft or speeder. <BR>
><BR>
> Advantages: <BR>
> Pick your climate, and even your temperature on any given day by<BR>
> changing location and altitude. <BR>
><BR>
> Free up land for agriculture, recreation, or aesthetic/social reasons.<BR>
><BR>
> Segregation from other cities or subcultures.<BR>
<BR>
More importantly, since this is a *palace*:<BR>
<BR>
Advantages:<BR>
	*excellent* access control<BR>
	good fields of fire for defensive weapons<BR>
<BR>
Disadvantage:<BR>
	potential problem if grav units sabotaged<BR>
<BR>
And that disadvantage isn't all *that* big given that this place is a<BR>
target for things like *nukes*.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 15:12:25 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Stellar Data question-- can "habitable" worlds exist around M	-V stars?  <BR>
<BR>
On 28 Mar 00, at 21:42, Smith, Walter wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
> >BTW, given the low gravity, if the planet has a "normal" day, building a<BR>
> >"beanstalk" is well within their capability, since they don't need<BR>
> >anything stronger than kevlar, and probably can get by with *steel*<BR>
> >cable. <BR>
> <BR>
> Fascinating.<BR>
> <BR>
> At what gravities do low-tech beanstalks become possible? I never<BR>
> thought of a TL7 beanstalk before.<BR>
> <BR>
> However, since they can buy anti-grav from nearby worlds, would they<BR>
> build a beanstalk? Even after the shipping, a fleet of gravitic<BR>
> transports are sure to be a lot cheaper than a beanstalk would be.<BR>
<BR>
With TL7 tech the energy requirements for grav tech could be fairly <BR>
steep, whereas beanstalks don't use much power to move stuff up and <BR>
down. Not to mention the loss of cash out-system for maintenence techs, <BR>
etc.<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
An pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 22:22:09 EST<BR>
From: RvKsword@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: McGuffin<BR>
<BR>
 <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 15:20:50 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Stellar Data question...<BR>
<BR>
On 28 Mar 00, at 17:20, Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> > and we have records of<BR>
> > people staying in space aboard a TL 6-7 orbital platform ("Mir") for<BR>
> > periods of over a year. I see no problem supporting that many people for<BR>
> > an extended period, especially with extra-system support. The general<BR>
> > tech level may be TL 7, but given half-a-chance I would bet the<BR>
> > life-support systems would be as advanced as the system could afford (TL<BR>
> > 10-11 at least).<BR>
> <BR>
> I beg to differ. Life support is the *last* thing that you want to be<BR>
> dependent of offworld support for. <BR>
<BR>
And for examples just read the TAS articles from the "Hard Times" era <BR>
(1125+).<BR>
<BR>
> Things like blackberries and raspberries and other "vine" fruits may be<BR>
> popular as "wall coverings". <BR>
<BR>
Raspberries aren't very "viney", but blackberries will do fine. You <BR>
could have passionfruit and grapes, too.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
An pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 22:23:20 EST<BR>
From: RvKsword@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: McGuffin<BR>
<BR>
<drool> ohhhh so many chances to screw with...er um, *entertain* my <BR>
players....yeah thats it....<BR>
<BR>
:)<BR>
RvK<BR>
v^v^v  "Thats not the end of the tunnel, THATS THE TRAIN!!!"  v^v^v<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 22:35:51 -0500<BR>
From: "Smith, Walter" <SmithW@hartwick.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Grav Powered Floating Cities<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erikson wrote:<BR>
>More importantly, since this is a *palace*: <BR>
<BR>
It is? I was thinking this would cover a range of options, from<BR>
pricey subdivisions to palaces.<BR>
<BR>
Leonard again:<BR>
>And that disadvantage isn't all *that* big given that this place is a <BR>
>target for things like *nukes*. <BR>
<BR>
If it *is* a palace, it can certainly have a city-sized nuclear <BR>
dampener on board, and possibly a meson screen and PD weapons to<BR>
boot. <BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 22:01:07 -0600<BR>
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: TML Landgrab and GT:FI -  Leander Questions<BR>
<BR>
All right.<BR>
<BR>
I've just spent much of the evening working out Leander using GT:FI.  By<BR>
setting the primary star's age at 500 million years, I was _just_ able<BR>
to keep from tidal lock while only fudging within allowed die rolls (the<BR>
primary is M5 V).<BR>
<BR>
Now, my problem is how to explain an ecosystem with an oxygen-nitrogen<BR>
atmosphere, tainted with pollen (as per BtC), when the most advanced<BR>
lifeforms allowed at that age are single-celled?  Mass-scale<BR>
terraforming within the timeframe of 3I settlement of the Spinward<BR>
Marches seems unlikely, especially on a world with so few inhabitants<BR>
(Pop level 2).<BR>
<BR>
My initial solution would be to have had the world accidentally seeded<BR>
with relatively complex lifeforms (such as algae and yeasts, perhaps<BR>
from a crashed ship's life support system).  That way, I avoid having to<BR>
deal with _yet another_ Ancients site (ho-hum).<BR>
<BR>
So, the questions are:<BR>
<BR>
1.  How soon after world formation would Leander be capable of allowing<BR>
accidentally seeded organisms to survive and develop?<BR>
<BR>
2.  How long would it take for such organisms to develop to the point<BR>
that an oxygen-nitrogen atmosphere would be present, to allow seeding of<BR>
sophisticated organisms (vascular plants, insects, etc.)?<BR>
<BR>
3.  Were there any races travelling in space as long ago as question #2<BR>
requires?<BR>
<BR>
4.  If my ideas above seem unworkable, does anyone here object to a<BR>
change in stellar data for Leander?  That M5 V star is the biggest<BR>
obstacle to making Leander's UWP work. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 19:22:08 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: More Cool Maps<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> with ranch stuff, so it may take a few days or so. BTW, the icosahedronic<BR>
> projection as described in GT: FI is driving me nuts. Trying to recreate it<BR>
> from a text description has me stumped, I wind up a hex row extra or short.<BR>
> Does somebody have a scan or such from GURPs: Space they might send me?<BR>
<BR>
I've got several files that someone on the list sent me. They are all<BR>
the same "form" at different resolutions or formats. Let me know which<BR>
one(s) you want. <BR>
<BR>
hex640.gif      11030	 640x480x2<BR>
hex800.gif      14423	 800x600x2<BR>
hex1024.gif     20845	1024x768x2<BR>
hexpng.png      12075	1355x975x2<BR>
hexmap.cdr      67350<BR>
hexmap.pdf     314197<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Here's my attempt at a text description of the map blanks in one of my<BR>
books: <BR>
<BR>
Take some hex paper with the hexes point up. <BR>
<BR>
Create a triangle, with the base horizontal, and points in the *center*<BR>
of a hex. The sides run thru the *center* of the hexsides, not thru the<BR>
corners of the hexes. NOT counting the hex the triangle sides start and<BR>
end in, there are 8 hexes per triangle side (for 9 hexes total).<BR>
Assemble your flattened icosahedron from these.<BR>
<BR>
It should look like this (9 and 18 indicate the length of the edges)<BR>
<BR>
        9 / \  9  / \  9  / \  9  / \  9  / \ <BR>
        /_____\ /_____\ /_____\ /_____\ /_____\  18<BR>
________\     / \     / \     / \     / \     / \ __________ equator<BR>
          \ /_____\ /_____\ /_____\ /_____\ /_____\<BR>
        18  \     / \     / \     / \     / \     /<BR>
              \ /  9  \ /  9  \ /  9  \ /  9  \ / 9<BR>
<BR>
And it's 27 rows total, starting and ending in the middle of rows.<BR>
<BR>
The files I have use complete hexes and are 7/14 hexes on a side. Still<BR>
"point up" hexes. <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 22:12:28 -0600<BR>
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Flag Stoppages<BR>
<BR>
"Douglas E. Berry" wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> At 03:53 PM 3/28/2000 -0600, you wrote:<BR>
> >> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> >> From: Douglas E. Berry [mailto:gridlore@pop.mindspring.com]<BR>
> <BR>
> >> "Honestly, sir. I didn't hear the music!"<BR>
> ><BR>
> >And what about that cannon?<BR>
> <BR>
> Feh. It fires at the end of the ceremony, IIRC. And by that time you are<BR>
> well on your way to the fleshpots and bacterial breeding grounds of Victory<BR>
> Drive.<BR>
<BR>
1.  It fires between "Retreat" and "To the Colors."<BR>
<BR>
2.  By the time the cannon sounds, it's really too late to stop, get<BR>
out, and salute.  And unsafe.  ;-)<BR>
<BR>
3.  Victory Drive.  I knew it well, though briefly.  The Ft. Bragg<BR>
equivalent was Hay Street.  (I was reputed to have a barstool with my<BR>
name on it at Rick's Lounge.)  Tragically, I hear that they cleaned up<BR>
Hay Street.  <sigh><BR>
<BR>
Ah, for the days of my misspent youth!<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 22:12:48 -0600<BR>
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: Thanks for RPG Classification Discussion!<BR>
<BR>
Having returned to college, I find myself taking English 101.  In our<BR>
current essay assignment, we have to write papers dividing some field<BR>
into various categories.<BR>
<BR>
Thanks to the TML, I now have the perfect subject area (approved by my<BR>
professor).<BR>
<BR>
Thanks to everyone who contributed (even if the heat did sometimes<BR>
exceed the light).  :-)<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 23:47:14 EST<BR>
From: Damage169@cs.com<BR>
Subject: Pencils<BR>
<BR>
Matt Bond writes:<BR>
<BR>
>  From: Damage169@cs.com <Damage169@cs.com><BR>
>  <snip>>Sorry for the error, I am an unrepentant imperialist. Except for 2 <BR>
L.<BR>
>  bottles<BR>
>  >of soda and 5 mm. leads in my mechanical pencil<BR>
>  <BR>
>  I hope you have a mechanical arm to lift your mechanical pencil, 'cos <BR>
that's<BR>
>  one BIG pencil <g><BR>
>  <BR>
>  Or did you mean .5mm... ;-)<BR>
>  <BR>
>  Matt<BR>
<BR>
Actually, now that I check, I've got both. I did originally mean the 0.5 mm <BR>
leads, but I've also got a Mars-Stabilo mechanical pencil of some sort that <BR>
has 5 mm. leads. The little pack its in also has slots for 2, 3, and 7.5 mm <BR>
sized mech pencils but they're missing. I think they're used in technical <BR>
drawing, etc., but I'm not sure.<BR>
<BR>
Doug G.<BR>
        <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 19:51:02 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Drop Tanks<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> 0.5% means that a ship will have an average lifespan of about 200 jumps.<BR>
> Standard ships have a reasonable lifespan of 2000+ jumps, which means<BR>
> that your transport costs were just upped by an order of magnitude.<BR>
<BR>
Quick check. Banks give *40 year* loans on ships. Given 25 jumps a year<BR>
(jump every other week, with an extra two weeks for maintenance and<BR>
other "downtime"), a ship makes makes 1000 jumps in 40 years. Assuming<BR>
that you can somehow manage 52 jumps a year, you get 2080 jumps.<BR>
<BR>
This means that the "average" number of jumps to kill a ship must be<BR>
substantially more than 2000 or banks *won't* make 40 year loans on<BR>
them! Because if half can get lost after 2000 jumps, the other half get<BR>
lost *before* 2000 jumps. In fact, given the type of probability<BR>
involved, I'd guess that a quarter are lost before 1000 jumps, and an<BR>
eighth before 500 jumps. <BR>
<BR>
There's no way in *hell* the banks can afford that loss rate. Not even<BR>
with insurance (the insurance companies would want huge rates).<BR>
<BR>
Misjumps need to be *really* low frequency events or banks won't do 40<BR>
year loans. <BR>
<BR>
True, players will misjump far more often, simply because they do risky<BR>
things. But even so it can't be *that* much more often.<BR>
 <BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 20:04:23 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: GMSound Software<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
>> <BR>
>> Also, "OS independent" means "resource hog on all OSes". Doesn't<BR>
>> anybody write *optimized* code anymore?<BR>
><BR>
> It truly depends on what you mean by 'resource hog' If you mean,<BR>
> 'doesn't run on an 8-bit chip with 64k of RAM and 5 mb disk space' then<BR>
> the answer is 'Yes' because developers have to get product out the door.<BR>
> (and likely you're running on something like that because you're asking<BR>
> about DOS)<BR>
<BR>
You must have missed my post about "computers at the table". My<BR>
*primary* system is an AMD K6-2/300, with 64 *meg* and an 8 gig HD. The<BR>
Novell server only has a Pentium-90 with 13 gig (8 of that is mirrored,<BR>
so it "really" has 21 gig) and 148 meg of RAM (it'd have 192 meg, but<BR>
my supplier hasn't delivered the chips yet).<BR>
<BR>
I run in DOS most of the time because Win95 crashes too much, and I<BR>
managed to hose the OS/2 setup so badly that I need to have it taken in<BR>
to be fixed. And I can't spare the system right now, so I'm waiting<BR>
until my "guru" has time to get OS/2 set up on a couple of older boxes<BR>
that I can hook into the LAN to take over from this one. :-)<BR>
<BR>
> OTOH, computing resources are cheap, and only going to get cheaper.<BR>
> Moore's law and all that. This is the only wayb we can take the first<BR>
> 'platform independent' steps we're taking today.<BR>
<BR>
Not *that* cheap. It turns out that a *lot* of Windows code is<BR>
*horribly* bloated because programmers use old code to develop new code<BR>
and don't strip out now irrelevant librabries, windows, and other<BR>
"resources". <BR>
<BR>
I know of a case where someone had the tools needed to dig into a<BR>
simple Windows utility and discovered that out of almost two meg, only<BR>
about 100k was actually *needed*.<BR>
<BR>
> Finally, Java isn't all that big a hog, no more so than, say, Windows or<BR>
> the Mac OS. It's just that _most_ people run _applets_ not applications,<BR>
> which have a lot of slowdown with the html browser wrapper around it. <BR>
<BR>
It's like running an emulator or an interpreter. Less efficient than<BR>
native code. Of course, with this attitude I ought to be running a RISC<BR>
chip. :-)<BR>
<BR>
But try finding software...<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 20:42:52 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Trains, planes and automobiles<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Ditzie's latest project (after ensuring the obsolescence of the CPR gun) is<BR>
> another Export Markets job.<BR>
><BR>
> It is based on some Straaaaategic Stuudddiez work - specifically some<BR>
> partial and incomplete records for mounting a nuclear missile system on<BR>
> external combustion engines running on rails (the proposal is for the FX<BR>
> missile, or something like that).<BR>
><BR>
> Now, nukes are, in the words of Ms Spofulam, booooooooring, but she thinks<BR>
> that a better idea may be to have a rail-mounted PAW.<BR>
><BR>
> The idea is that "twains" as Ditzie calls them are used on many, many<BR>
> lo-tech worlds, steel-wheels-on-steel having high load bearing and low<BR>
> traction, so you could have a number of PAWs quite happily shuttling around<BR>
> the countryside, and when raider or pirates turned up then they get<BR>
> "zappity-zap-zap-zapped".<BR>
><BR>
> If the news got around that a world had a number of these scattered across<BR>
> their continent, then the old raider trick of "the defenses are at the<BR>
> capital. Lets hit that provincial city" wont work, and hopefully the raiders<BR>
> will turn to honest work.<BR>
><BR>
> Now, can Ditzie get some help with building trains at TL6-8 ?<BR>
<BR>
Well, at those TLs the locomotives will be diesel-electric. Which is<BR>
*good*. Because a diesel-electric is bacicly a honking *big* diesel<BR>
generator (I'd not be surprised to find that they are rated in<BR>
*megawatts*, check some web sites), some fancy current/voltage changing<BR>
gear that acts as a transmission, and some honking big electric motors.<BR>
<BR>
So with only minor modifications, you can rig them to supply all that<BR>
nice electric power to the PAW. Or modify and camoflage a bunch of<BR>
"slave" engines (those are the ones with no cabs, they are remotely<BR>
controlled from one of the other engines) to look like frieght cars. At<BR>
idle, they'd have less of an IR signature than a reefer car<BR>
(refrigerated frieght car). <BR>
<BR>
So you've got as much power plant as you want. Add a few "boxcars" with<BR>
fold back roofs exposing PD lasers and even launchers for AA missiles,<BR>
and the train can even *defend* itself while firing the PAW.<BR>
<BR>
Likewise, the "beam pointer" (radar unit) can be on a different car.<BR>
Heck, with a train half a mile long (not that unusual) you can have<BR>
units on each end and determining range is *easy* with that sort of<BR>
baseline. Even on a curve you can use GPS or something to determine the<BR>
range and bearing between the units. (Ain't synthetic aperture radar<BR>
fun?) <BR>
<BR>
So the only limit is on the size of the car that has to hold the actual<BR>
PAW. That limits beam diameter and tunnel length. I'm sure a train buff<BR>
can tell you the max car length and width for standard guage rail cars.<BR>
<BR>
Lower TL worlds car use other train based defenses. Late TL 4-6 can use<BR>
a combo of rail mounted coast defence guns and imported missile<BR>
launchers mounted inside fake boxcars. By TL 5-6, they can actually<BR>
*build* some of their own missiles (a V2 could be launched from a train<BR>
if they'd wanted to).<BR>
<BR>
Coast defence guns and AA weapons would only be useful if the train was<BR>
actually *at* the town being attacked. But "ethically challenged<BR>
merchants" are *not* going to want to face a coast defence gun round,<BR>
or even something like a German 88 AA gun.<BR>
<BR>
Sure, they can blow away the guns fairly quickly. But if the defenders<BR>
get in a lucky shot, the repairs to the ship could be expensive. Or<BR>
worse yet, they might get in a drive hit and be forced to land. <BR>
<BR>
*I* wouldn't want to be landing on a TL 5 or better planet whose<BR>
natives I'd just attacked...<BR>
<BR>
And god help you if the locals are willing to trade a bunch of them for<BR>
you. Then you get to land, go for the loot, and have them dropping gas<BR>
shells around you. Unless you are wearing a Combat Environment Suit or<BR>
BD, you get affected by the gas. So does the ship if they don't seal it<BR>
in time. And most nerve agents aren't visible...<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 00:10:43 EST<BR>
From: Damage169@cs.com<BR>
Subject: The ecologies of space rocks with people on them<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 3/28/00 9:09:26 PM Central Standard Time, Leonard Erickson <BR>
writes:<BR>
<BR>
> > Since TL 7 is approximately where we are now,<BR>
>  <BR>
>  Excuse me? We are at least TL-8.<BR>
>  <BR>
<BR>
We, in the developed nations, are at TL 8 (with some technologies arguably up <BR>
to TL 9), but most of the rest of the world is at TL 6-7. Some areas like <BR>
Ethiopia and Outer Mongolia are probably even lower. It generally seems to <BR>
average out at TL 7.<BR>
<BR>
<snip><BR>
<BR>
The rest of your post is great. Definitely a keeper.<BR>
<BR>
Doug G.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 21:35:01 -0800<BR>
From: "Luther Martin" <martin@ksarul.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Grav Powered Floating Cities<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Actually, it should take *no* energy to keep an object floating. It<BR>
> takes energy to *lift* it. But none to *hold* it in place.<BR>
<BR>
Can you elaborate on this? Mechanics never was my strong point. The city<BR>
wants to fall, right? And you are keeping it from falling. How does this<BR>
happen without requiring some energy?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 21:47:25 -0800<BR>
From: "Luther Martin" <martin@ksarul.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Drop Tanks<BR>
<BR>
> Why don't you combine this "carry along tank" with transporting your<BR>
> H2 as water, methane, or ammonia.  You can store a lot more H2 in<BR>
> your tank, refine it during jump slowly refilling your actual jump<BR>
> tanks.<BR>
><BR>
> Anybody want to do the calculations?  How much extra volume would<BR>
> it take to give a ship an extra parsec if you used water in your<BR>
> extra tank?<BR>
<BR>
I think that the ratio is something like 1:1.6, so that one displacement ton<BR>
of water contains the same amount of hydrogen as about 1.6 displacement tons<BR>
of pure liquid hydrogen. My memory may be very faulty, however. Actually,<BR>
it's very faulty, but the question is really its accuracy on this bit of<BR>
trivia.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 22:10:47 -0800<BR>
From: Kristian Miller <travellerne@3rd-imperium.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Flag Stoppages<BR>
<BR>
"Moody, Danny M." wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> > This is why every soldier's car is equipped with a *loud*<BR>
> > stero system.<BR>
> > "Honestly, sir. I didn't here the music!"<BR>
> <BR>
> And what about that cannon?<BR>
<BR>
It's for shooting the cars with the obnoxiously loud stereo systems!<BR>
<BR>
Kristian<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 21:08:45 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Adventure ideas in dysfunctional cultures<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> From: Laning <laning@wizard.net><BR>
> Subject: Re: Adventure ideas in dysfunctional cultures <BR>
><BR>
> The Government of the Planet Mongo and its Most Protuberant<BR>
> Ruler, Ming the Merciless, wish to clarify for readers of the<BR>
> TML that the ongoing discussion of Planet BDSM does not in any<BR>
> way refer to or resemble Planet Mongo, except in the most<BR>
> superficial elements.  <BR>
><BR>
> And of course the use of Mongon leather and fine chains.<BR>
<BR>
The Planet BDSM Chamber of Commerce wishes it to be known that the<BR>
balance of trade between Mongo and BDSM is quite favorable to BDSM. <BR>
<BR>
"Yes, we import a lot of leather and chain from Mongo. But they import<BR>
a lot of finished goods from us." said a spokesman.<BR>
<BR>
When queried regarding the nature of the goods, all the spokeman would<BR>
say was "Various adult play items, as well as numerous custom orders<BR>
which we cannot describe without violating privacy regulations."<BR>
<BR>
"Surely your privacy laws aren't *that* strict?"<BR>
<BR>
"Perhaps you might want to talk to the former Galactic Inquirer<BR>
reporters being featured in a few of the shows down at the Tivoli. They<BR>
didn't think our laws were that strict either."<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 16:09:10 +1000<BR>
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au<BR>
Subject: Re: TML Landgrab<BR>
<BR>
Dear Folks -<BR>
<BR>
Walt said:<BR>
>I don't know, though, maybe I'm being too picky. Maybe I should just<BR>
>pick an interesting UPP out of my Supplement 3, and ask the TML for<BR>
>BtC/SMC data. The amount of info I *don't* have is a bit overwhelming.<BR>
<BR>
This would certainly be within copyright law (less than one page, usually MUCH<BR>
less...)<BR>
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)<BR>
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au<BR>
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"<BR>
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those<BR>
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the<BR>
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.<BR>
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 01:16:42 EST<BR>
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Operation BRAG<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 3/28/00 8:26:20 AM !!!First Boot!!!, <BR>
kmhughes@dynamite.com.au writes:<BR>
<BR>
<< Is this a stock standard flag thing for Western (English Speaking) armies -<BR>
 or just an academy thing? >><BR>
<BR>
I ALWAYS have seen this at military bases. When I was a police officer, I was <BR>
expected to render honors as belonging to a semi-military organization. At <BR>
operation sail in 1986 (the tall ships visiting NY harbor), I got to board <BR>
the USCG bark Eagle. I was in uniform, since I was handling crowd control at <BR>
South Street Seaport (where the Eagle was moored, and a pretty fun but <BR>
expensive place to visit). The OD (I think, or maybe just the pier guard?) <BR>
instructed me to salute the National ensign on the fantail, and them him and <BR>
ask permission to come onboard, as he correctly assumed I had NO idea how to <BR>
do this properly. He was really cool about it, and not being a jerk BTW...It <BR>
was REALLY cool to poke around on the Eagle, and they even didn't hassle me <BR>
about wearing a weapon...The New Jersey was moored across the East river on <BR>
the Brooklyn side. I missed my chance to see her, though I asume the Navy is <BR>
stricter than the Coast Guard about letting people wander around...:-)<BR>
<BR>
I saw a show the other day about India, Pakistan and Kashmir. They finished <BR>
it by showing the only border crossing between them. The border guards hold a <BR>
flag lowering ceremony each day at the SAME time. It's wierd. They exaggerate <BR>
the motions with a LOT of panache' ( to show off?) and salute each other and <BR>
show perfect military courtesy to each other, even though they hate each <BR>
other...<BR>
<BR>
Ob Trav: I imagine Esalin would be like this with Imperial and Zhodani <BR>
guards, or maybe somewhere on the Solomani Rim/Imperial border...<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 16:14:08 +1000<BR>
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au<BR>
Subject: Re: Maps Page Updated<BR>
<BR>
Dear Folks -<BR>
<BR>
Ingo asked:<BR>
>>The Sol Rim was generated with an algorithm that produced higher<BR>
>>populations and a more homogeneous TL spread.<BR>
><BR>
>Is that an "inside publisher" information? (Was it GDW or DGP?)<BR>
<BR>
Er, from memory it's out of the Digest "Q&A's", but remember that these were all<BR>
reviewed by Marc and are therefore official.<BR>
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)<BR>
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au<BR>
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"<BR>
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those<BR>
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the<BR>
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.<BR>
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 16:38:04 +1000<BR>
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au<BR>
Subject: Re: Contract Law 101<BR>
<BR>
Dear Folks -<BR>
<BR>
Leonard wrote:<BR>
>And gets the setup explained to him. Including being informed that<BR>
>"myob" has nothing to do with "obs". It's an acronym for "Mind Your Own<BR>
>Business".<BR>
<BR>
And a very good piece of business accounting software it is too.<BR>
<BR>
Er - wrong thread? ;-)<BR>
<BR>
- - Hyphen<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2209<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2210</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
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Traveller-digest     Wednesday, March 29 2000     Volume 1999 : Number 2210<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Crossing Worlds (fairly long)<BR>
Re: Stellar Data question-- can "habitable" worlds exist around M -V stars?  <BR>
Re: Stellar Data question-- can "habitable" worlds exist around M	-V stars?<BR>
Re: Stellar Data question...<BR>
Re: GMSound Software<BR>
Re: Contract Law 101<BR>
RE: Salutations and other matters<BR>
RE: Grav-powered floating cities?<BR>
RE: GMSound Software<BR>
Quopist<BR>
Border crossings<BR>
Re Game Stores in Anchorage AK<BR>
Re: The ecologies of space rocks with people on them<BR>
Re: Grav Powered Floating Cities<BR>
Re: Trains, planes and automobiles<BR>
Re: Stellar Data question...<BR>
Re: Stellar Data question-- can "habitable" worlds exist around M	-V stars?<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 22:46:54 -0800<BR>
From: "Luther Martin" <martin@ksarul.com><BR>
Subject: Crossing Worlds (fairly long)<BR>
<BR>
Talking about old Traveller games at the Bay Area Traveller board game<BR>
meeting last month, I was reminded of The Great Crossing Worlds Adventure<BR>
which I ran many years ago. It didn't start out that way, but here's roughly<BR>
how it proceeded...<BR>
<BR>
The players were Zhodani intelligence agents who had a mission to steal a<BR>
black globe generator from a ship in Imperial space and return with it to<BR>
Cronor. Since the players represented the best and brightest of a huge<BR>
interstellar empire, characteristic generation was d6+7 instead of the usual<BR>
2d6. Character generation was from the Zhodani Alien Module. No mustering<BR>
out, since the characters were still on active duty. Other modifications,<BR>
too, which I have since forgotten. The point was to create incredibly bad<BR>
news characters for an incredibly dangerous mission, with lots of chances to<BR>
use psionics (also d6+7). There was lots of player choice involved, so that<BR>
a good team was assembled rather than a random collection of characters.<BR>
<BR>
Further, since the characters had the backing of the Zhodani government,<BR>
cost was really no object. In addition to virtually any equipment of TL15 or<BR>
less, they had access to 6 custom-designed robots (from the JTAS<BR>
supplement), and a custom-designed ship of 600 tons or less. In addition,<BR>
they had access to 2 deep-space refuelings to let them take routes designed<BR>
to thwart their Imperial adversaries. No tramp free traders here.<BR>
<BR>
I did my best to plan the defenses of the Imperial intelligence forces, and<BR>
decided to resolve any play against my preplanned  defenses.<BR>
<BR>
The overall game was to have three phases: planning, training, and the<BR>
mission. Any intelligence requested by the players on Imperial plans,<BR>
operations, etc, was filtered (subjected to die rolls for accuracy, etc) and<BR>
given to them. They then planned  a very elaborate and clever route in and<BR>
out of the Imperium and the details of how to accomplish their mission.<BR>
<BR>
The next stage, training, was basically ignored for game purposes. We talked<BR>
about it, but it didn't seem very interesting to play out.<BR>
<BR>
Then came the actual mission. After a few routine jumps, I went to check my<BR>
Imperial counter-intelligence activity chart and came up with one of those<BR>
rare die rolls. It might have been very high, it might have been very low, I<BR>
really don't remember. But we now had successful sabotage of the player's<BR>
ship. Another die roll, and it's sabotage of the jump drive. A catastrophic<BR>
misjump of some sort.<BR>
<BR>
But wait, I thought, these guys have incredible psionic powers. It would be<BR>
a shame to waste all of the game so far. How about a cross-dimensional<BR>
misjump to another world where psionic powers are the basis for magic. Being<BR>
a big fan of the Tekumel setting, I saw the perfect opportunity.<BR>
<BR>
So sparks fly, power surges happen, and something clearly goes wrong with<BR>
the jump. When they emerge, all of the stars except the local system are<BR>
gone...<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 22:19:06 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Stellar Data question-- can "habitable" worlds exist around M -V stars?  <BR>
<BR>
In mail, traveller@lists.imagiconline.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
> Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
>>BTW, given the low gravity, if the planet has a "normal" day, building <BR>
>>a "beanstalk" is well within their capability, since they don't need <BR>
>>anything stronger than kevlar, and probably can get by with *steel* <BR>
>>cable. <BR>
><BR>
> Fascinating.<BR>
><BR>
> At what gravities do low-tech beanstalks become possible? I never<BR>
> thought of a TL7 beanstalk before.<BR>
<BR>
I'm not up to the math. But Kevlar and "current" tech is supposedly<BR>
adequate for one on Mars. Luna is out because the rotational period is<BR>
way too long. <BR>
<BR>
The calcs involve calculus which I'm no good at. :-(<BR>
<BR>
> However, since they can buy anti-grav from nearby worlds, would they<BR>
> build a beanstalk? Even after the shipping, a fleet of gravitic<BR>
> transports are sure to be a lot cheaper than a beanstalk would be.<BR>
<BR>
Depends. A beanstalk is likely to be *cheaper* than CG for getting<BR>
stuff to orbit unless CG is insanely efficient. And if CG is that<BR>
efficient, nobody would use cranes or elevators. (Yes, beanstalks are<BR>
*that* energy efficient)<BR>
<BR>
So the only big cost consideration is how long it takes to pay off the<BR>
construction costs.<BR>
<BR>
"Rotovators" aka "revolving tethers" are another possibility. <BR>
<BR>
Somebody *really* needs to do up articles about these and other<BR>
"interesting" technologies with an eye towards making it easy for<BR>
authors and gamers to figure out how well they'd work on different<BR>
sorts of worlds.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 22:29:46 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Stellar Data question-- can "habitable" worlds exist around M	-V stars?<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> On 28 Mar 00, at 21:42, Smith, Walter wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>> Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
>> >BTW, given the low gravity, if the planet has a "normal" day, building a<BR>
>> >"beanstalk" is well within their capability, since they don't need<BR>
>> >anything stronger than kevlar, and probably can get by with *steel*<BR>
>> >cable. <BR>
>> <BR>
>> Fascinating.<BR>
>> <BR>
>> At what gravities do low-tech beanstalks become possible? I never<BR>
>> thought of a TL7 beanstalk before.<BR>
>> <BR>
>> However, since they can buy anti-grav from nearby worlds, would they<BR>
>> build a beanstalk? Even after the shipping, a fleet of gravitic<BR>
>> transports are sure to be a lot cheaper than a beanstalk would be.<BR>
><BR>
> With TL7 tech the energy requirements for grav tech could be fairly <BR>
> steep, whereas beanstalks don't use much power to move stuff up and <BR>
> down. Not to mention the loss of cash out-system for maintenence techs, <BR>
> etc.<BR>
<BR>
Also, if there's a net "downward" flow of material (say, they planet is<BR>
importing lots of "ice" and other materials from the belts or GGs) then<BR>
the beanstalk is a *producer* of energy.<BR>
<BR>
Assume a measly 2 km/sec difference in escape velocity between the top<BR>
and bottom of the stalk. That means 2 *megajoules* of energy for every<BR>
kilogram brought down. <BR>
<BR>
It doesn't take a lot of excess downward traffic to provide *lots* of<BR>
power that way.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 22:40:54 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Stellar Data question...<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> On 28 Mar 00, at 17:20, Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>> > and we have records of<BR>
>> > people staying in space aboard a TL 6-7 orbital platform ("Mir") for<BR>
>> > periods of over a year. I see no problem supporting that many people for<BR>
>> > an extended period, especially with extra-system support. The general<BR>
>> > tech level may be TL 7, but given half-a-chance I would bet the<BR>
>> > life-support systems would be as advanced as the system could afford (TL<BR>
>> > 10-11 at least).<BR>
>> <BR>
>> I beg to differ. Life support is the *last* thing that you want to be<BR>
>> dependent of offworld support for. <BR>
><BR>
> And for examples just read the TAS articles from the "Hard Times" era <BR>
> (1125+).<BR>
><BR>
>> Things like blackberries and raspberries and other "vine" fruits may be<BR>
>> popular as "wall coverings". <BR>
><BR>
> Raspberries aren't very "viney", but blackberries will do fine. You <BR>
> could have passionfruit and grapes, too.<BR>
<BR>
Well, raspberries *climb* ok. At least the ones I helped pick (and trim<BR>
& train) did. <BR>
<BR>
This leads to an interesting picture. A colony that had the humans die<BR>
decades ago, but the lights and air/water recirculation are still<BR>
running. Air & water *recycling*, being based on a rudimentary<BR>
ecosystem will do just fine.<BR>
<BR>
Picture the looks on your players faces when they get down into the<BR>
buried city, the doors of the elevator open, and they find themselves<BR>
facing a corridor that's one big blackberry thicket! <eg><BR>
<BR>
Note: if they try to lynch you, I am *not* responsible.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 22:54:39 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: GMSound Software<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>> Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 14:26:43 PST<BR>
>> From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
>> Subject: Re: GMSound Software<BR>
><BR>
>> <BR>
>> Yes, it means they are less likely to crash, less demanding of<BR>
>> resources, and will run under DOS, Windows and OS/2. :-)<BR>
>> <BR>
>> Mac users are on their own.<BR>
>> <BR>
><BR>
> Leonard!<BR>
><BR>
> Can you say "Virtual PC"? Faster and more stable than the original? Thanks!<BR>
> I knew you could... :><BR>
<BR>
I'm not fond of using emulators if the original is available. That's<BR>
why I still haven't gotten around to downloading emulators for my old<BR>
8-bit gear. :-)<BR>
<BR>
Besides, what does "Virtual PC" *cost*? And what sort of hardware does<BR>
it need.<BR>
<BR>
(I thought it was silly that it took a fast 486 running Windoze to<BR>
emulate a 1 Mhz Z-80 at full speed)<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 22:59:25 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Contract Law 101<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> On 28 Mar 00, at 14:32, Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>> Given that a major point was that these folks were pacifists, I think you<BR>
>> have that wrong. My memory *does* agree that he died. But if he was<BR>
>> killed, it was more likely someone defending themself from an attack.<BR>
><BR>
> They were Gands - followers of Gandhi, as opposed to the earthling <BR>
> "Anti-Gands". IIRC the man who never made up his Obs died of cold and <BR>
> starvation after the word got out and nobody would do anything for him.<BR>
><BR>
> That book had some nice quotes, my favourite being "Strong as a <BR>
> thousand Gands, and as smooth as an Earthman's downfall."<BR>
<BR>
*Most* of the planets in that book would be great to stick in the<BR>
Traveller universe. <BR>
<BR>
Besides the Gands (now *there's a planet the Imperium would just as<BR>
soon leave un-assimilated) the only other planet I recall was the one<BR>
settled by nudists...<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 19:10:53 +1200<BR>
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: Salutations and other matters<BR>
<BR>
<snip><BR>
> > I've also got about three copies of Kafer Dawn for various reasons.<BR>
><BR>
> Lemmie guess - the Hampton?<BR>
<BR>
Er, sorry ?<BR>
Don't remember any Hampton in Kafer Dawn.<BR>
<BR>
<Snip><BR>
> > Standard practice on RNZAF bases at least prior to 1991<BR>
> ><BR>
> > Though they said you didn't have to stop and stand to attention if you<BR>
> > couldn't actually _see_ the flagpole. This was so that all the people<BR>
> > in Group Headquarters right next to the flagpole didn't have to stop<BR>
> > moving around when the flag went down/up<BR>
> ><BR>
><BR>
> They could see it - though trees were in the way - does that count?<BR>
<BR>
Yep, esecially if they were cadets, who have to be very careful to follow<BR>
the regs exactly. Actually, the real rule is if the Base WO can see _you_,<BR>
you'd better stop. <grin><BR>
<BR>
> Russell Offices (Aust Defence Dept HQ) is a no hat zone inside - but when<BR>
> you leave the foyer - it's on for young and old. I was at the mil academy<BR>
> for some changing of the guard speech and all these officers - mostly<BR>
> MAJ(E)+ up to one stars came pouring out of the hall just as this poor<BR>
> middie came past. Never seen so much saluting from one person in my entire<BR>
> life. A bunch of other cadets were about twenty feet back who<BR>
> upon seeing Mr Vickers-machine-gun-like saluting man abruptly turned and<BR>
> marched off at speed.<BR>
><BR>
> Funn-ee.<BR>
<BR>
Yep, though usually the event happens the other way round, where one officer<BR>
ends up saluting several other ranks. In fact, we often used to do this to<BR>
officers on purpose, a whole lot of us go past him at a separation that<BR>
meant he'd just be finished with one when the next would appear.<BR>
<BR>
Frankie<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 19:19:34 +1200<BR>
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: Grav-powered floating cities?<BR>
<BR>
> I' ve found several references to grav-powered floating cities on<BR>
> High-Tech worlds in Traveller.<BR>
><BR>
> My question is:<BR>
><BR>
> Why? I mean, why should anyone build such a city? Every technology can<BR>
> fail, so it's an additional source for desasters. Plus it's not easy to<BR>
> walk to a suburb...<BR>
<BR>
The same reason all the cities on earth build these stupid towers with<BR>
revolving  restaurants on the top.<BR>
<BR>
Frankie<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 19:49:52 +1200<BR>
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: GMSound Software<BR>
<BR>
With tongue firmly in cheek -<BR>
<BR>
> On Behalf Of Leonard Erickson<BR>
> > Is the fact that they run in DOS supposed to be a good thing ?<BR>
><BR>
> Yes, it means they are less likely to crash,<BR>
<BR>
Under DOS, which has even less crash protection than Windows ?<BR>
<BR>
> less demanding of resources<BR>
<BR>
Because it can't use any more than 640K at a time.<BR>
<BR>
> and will run under DOS, Windows and OS/2. :-)<BR>
><BR>
> Mac users are on their own.<BR>
<BR>
You can get DOS emulators for the Mac<BR>
<BR>
> > Damn OS dependant software !<BR>
> ><BR>
> > I'll have to write a Java version.<BR>
> > Should only take an  hour or so.<BR>
> > <grin><BR>
><BR>
> Yeah, right.<BR>
<BR>
Actually I'm reasonably serious about that bit, it's damn simple to write<BR>
media control applications in Java, It'd take me most of the time to come up<BR>
with a good GUI, a command-line player would be about ten minutes work.<BR>
<BR>
> And that makes it *unusable* under DOS, since there's no<BR>
> Java support for "old" OSes like that.<BR>
<BR>
Of course not, why would you ever want to use DOS ?<BR>
You're not actually still using an AT are you ?<BR>
<BR>
Anything more modern can run better OS's than DOS.<BR>
<BR>
( BTW There is a JVM in firmware that can be run on embedded 8086s.<BR>
Slightly cut down version of Java though, might not include the MediaTracker<BR>
classes. )<BR>
<BR>
> Also, "OS independent" means "resource hog on all OSes". Doesn't<BR>
> anybody write *optimized* code anymore?<BR>
<BR>
Yes. All Java byte-code is far more optimized than any native code.<BR>
Of course it's optimized for size, i.e: speed of downloading, not<BR>
speed of execution.<BR>
<BR>
And again, just in case, <grin><BR>
<BR>
Frankie<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 02:58:44 -0500<BR>
From: Peter Miller <thegolem@mindless.com><BR>
Subject: Quopist<BR>
<BR>
Hi fellow TMLers,<BR>
<BR>
I was wondering if any kind soul out there would be willing to give me the <BR>
jist of the Quopist entry in BtC if there is such a thing.  It won't make <BR>
much of a difference to me at this point as I've already built a world <BR>
background from data found in Supplement 3.<BR>
<BR>
For those interested, I built my writeup in a format of increasingly <BR>
informative search methods:<BR>
<BR>
1) brief Library Data entry<BR>
2) short Traveller's Aid Society world writeup<BR>
3) IISS world history and current situation<BR>
4) Game info and Referee information - Secrets and Adventure ideas<BR>
<BR>
Peter<BR>
__________________________Peter J. Miller<BR>
thegolem@mindless.com        ICQ #5294589<BR>
<BR>
"Loneliness is not a phase..."<BR>
          - 'Angry Chair', Alice in Chains<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 05:05:45 +1000<BR>
From: "Karen and Michael Hughes" <kmhughes@dynamite.com.au><BR>
Subject: Border crossings<BR>
<BR>
I saw a show the other day about India, Pakistan and Kashmir. They finished<BR>
it by showing the only border crossing between them. The border guards hold<BR>
a<BR>
flag lowering ceremony each day at the SAME time. It's wierd. They<BR>
exaggerate<BR>
the motions with a LOT of panache' ( to show off?) and salute each other and<BR>
show perfect military courtesy to each other, even though they hate each<BR>
other...<BR>
<BR>
Ob Trav: I imagine Esalin would be like this with Imperial and Zhodani<BR>
guards, or maybe somewhere on the Solomani Rim/Imperial border...<BR>
<BR>
<whoops I forgot who I snipped - sorry><BR>
<BR>
Is that the one where when they close the gates (each has a gate on a major<BR>
thoroughfare with about twenty metres apart) by slamming them then do this<BR>
hop/skip march away with barely concealed hostility?<BR>
<BR>
Man that was FREAKY - esp considered that both places have nukes (I know -<BR>
the ability to deploy is still earlier days - but even so they be nukey<BR>
now).<BR>
<BR>
Ob Trav; I'm going to stick above Ob Trav in my game. It's totally worth it.<BR>
Jeez you wouldn't want to drop your sidearm and have it go off in a<BR>
situation like that (unlikely I know) - there'd be a shooting war in 2<BR>
minutes.<BR>
<BR>
SEC: Michael<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 00:49:12 -0900<BR>
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re Game Stores in Anchorage AK<BR>
<BR>
>I just gotta ask:<BR>
><BR>
>I lived in AK for the second time from 89-91, and got a great honkin'<BR>
>amount of gaming stuff at Bosco's.  My gaming obsession stared with a trip<BR>
>to Spenard Hobby way back in 81.<BR>
><BR>
>There was another game store out in the Muldoon mall - First Empire.  It<BR>
>started up in 1990.  Also, IIRC, one (or two) of the guys from Spenard<BR>
>Hobby stated a game/hobby shop called Fun For All.<BR>
><BR>
>Do any of you know what happened to either one of 'em?<BR>
<BR>
Spen'obby: folded. Name sold. Reopened under new management doing RC and<BR>
modeling only. Still in same location.<BR>
<BR>
First Empire: Sold off to former owners of Spen'obby, who closed it,<BR>
reopened with old and new stock in about 92, in University Center, as<BR>
"Games People Play", which see. Sale was due to Kevin(?)'s need to run<BR>
south due to an ailing parent.<BR>
<BR>
Games People Play: Avram and Mike tried to recapture the Spen'obby games<BR>
success. They had a playing room (Oh how I miss the GAG playtests there),<BR>
and a nice front; they sold insufficiently to make rent after initial<BR>
capital ran out.<BR>
<BR>
Bosco's: expanded, and expanded again. Also now has more subordinate<BR>
stores. Main store is still on spenard. Dimond Center store has moved<BR>
across from the DC hobbycraft. Eagle river store moved to corner of old<BR>
glenn and Buisiness Lp. The 5th ave mall store opened and then closed, in<BR>
under a year.<BR>
<BR>
Game Keeper: Northway Mall store folded in late 80's; DC in mid 90's, but<BR>
stopped doing RPG's and wargames about 93, although they continued to carry<BR>
what they had in stock, and to do special orders.<BR>
<BR>
Eagle River Hobbycraft: Stopped doing games in 88, folded in 91.<BR>
<BR>
Other Hobbycrafts: AFAICT Only the Dimond Center store still does games.<BR>
Others mostly RC and Trains, with good selections of models.<BR>
<BR>
Most of my early trav stuff was purchased at the Eagle River hobbycraft.<BR>
Many games I've got came from Spen'obby. Many more came from Gamekeeper NW<BR>
Mall store. Until college, Spen'hobby and Bosco's were a pilgrimage for<BR>
those of us living in Eagle River...<BR>
<BR>
Ob Trav: Just think about how many "Favorite Hidey Holes" can dissapear in<BR>
a short period of time. Next time your PC's go looking for their favorite<BR>
Shop/Bar/etc, have it not be there. And it's not been there since about a<BR>
week after they left. People look at them funny when they ask about it, and<BR>
then shrug and walk off. Guaranteed to get a rise out of most groups.<BR>
<BR>
William F. Hostman  |  "Smith & Wesson: THe original Point and Click<BR>
interface!"<BR>
Aramis 0602 C55A364-C S kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge-<BR>
533<BR>
aramis@gci.net http://home.gci.net/~aramis Vilani: uilamaanamti sirohbrankilin<BR>
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn- t4-- tt+ to- tg-- ru+ ge 3i+ c+ jt-() au+ st- ls<BR>
pi+() ta+ he+(-) kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge- pi+<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 23:36:41 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: The ecologies of space rocks with people on them<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> In a message dated 3/28/00 9:09:26 PM Central Standard Time, Leonard <BR>
> Erickson <BR>
> writes:<BR>
<BR>
> <snip><BR>
><BR>
> The rest of your post is great. Definitely a keeper.<BR>
<BR>
Thanks. I suppose that it's obvious that I'm the type of guy who had<BR>
the inhabitants of the "dungeon" start organizing to deal with the<BR>
adventurers in D&D?<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 23:19:17 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Grav Powered Floating Cities<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>> Actually, it should take *no* energy to keep an object floating. It<BR>
>> takes energy to *lift* it. But none to *hold* it in place.<BR>
><BR>
> Can you elaborate on this? Mechanics never was my strong point. The city<BR>
> wants to fall, right? And you are keeping it from falling. How does this<BR>
> happen without requiring some energy?<BR>
<BR>
Ok, it's like this. Gravity exerts a *force* on the city. But energy is<BR>
force times DISTANCE MOVED. So it takes energy to *move* the city<BR>
upwards against the force of gravity. And lowering the city *releases*<BR>
energy. <BR>
<BR>
For a simpler situation, consider a weight being supported by a rope<BR>
that goes over a pulley. Tie the rope to a hook attached to the ground.<BR>
There is a *force* exerted by the rope (and on whatever the pulley is<BR>
attached to). But there is *zero* energy being used. <BR>
<BR>
Likewise, a weight sitting on a table. The table uses *no* energy to<BR>
support the weight. <BR>
<BR>
Now consider some magnets arranged so that one of them floats in mid<BR>
air above the others. *Still* no energy involved, just the action of a<BR>
force. <BR>
<BR>
Now, you may have to supply some energy to *create* the repulsive<BR>
force, but after that, you only need energy to overcome losses.<BR>
<BR>
Thus, if you try using an electromagnet to support a permanent magnet,<BR>
you have to supply energy to replace the losses due to resistance in<BR>
the wire. But if the magnet is made with superconducting wire, once you<BR>
supply the energy to *start* a current flowing thru it, the current<BR>
will flow forever with no energy input. Thus it acts like a permanent<BR>
magnet, and no further energy is needed.<BR>
<BR>
So CG should work the same way. It *will* take energy to raise<BR>
something in a gravity well, and you'll *get back* energy when you<BR>
lower stuff. But the only energy required to *hover* will be due to<BR>
losses in the equipment. <BR>
<BR>
I figure that the energy required to set up a CG field may involve a<BR>
"pressure/volume" relationship (if you check the units, pressure<BR>
divided by volume has units of mass*length^2/Time^2, which is the same<BR>
as energy). Force per area is pressure, so maybe the energy for a CG<BR>
field depends on the volume of the field, the upward force exerted, and<BR>
the area of the max horizontal cross-section of the field. <BR>
<BR>
Silly, but good enough for "hand wave" physics. :-)<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 23:18:46 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Trains, planes and automobiles<BR>
<BR>
On 28 Mar 00, at 20:42, Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Well, at those TLs the locomotives will be diesel-electric. Which is<BR>
> *good*. Because a diesel-electric is bacicly a honking *big* diesel<BR>
> generator (I'd not be surprised to find that they are rated in<BR>
> *megawatts*, check some web sites), some fancy current/voltage changing<BR>
> gear that acts as a transmission, and some honking big electric motors.<BR>
<BR>
I'd be very surprised if they weren't rated that high, because a MW is <BR>
only about 1340 horsepower.<BR>
<BR>
> So with only minor modifications, you can rig them to supply all that nice<BR>
> electric power to the PAW. Or modify and camoflage a bunch of "slave"<BR>
> engines (those are the ones with no cabs, they are remotely controlled<BR>
> from one of the other engines) to look like frieght cars. At idle, they'd<BR>
> have less of an IR signature than a reefer car (refrigerated frieght car).<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> So you've got as much power plant as you want. Add a few "boxcars" with<BR>
> fold back roofs exposing PD lasers and even launchers for AA missiles, and<BR>
> the train can even *defend* itself while firing the PAW.<BR>
> <BR>
> Likewise, the "beam pointer" (radar unit) can be on a different car.<BR>
> Heck, with a train half a mile long (not that unusual) you can have<BR>
> units on each end and determining range is *easy* with that sort of<BR>
> baseline. Even on a curve you can use GPS or something to determine the<BR>
> range and bearing between the units. (Ain't synthetic aperture radar fun?)<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> So the only limit is on the size of the car that has to hold the actual<BR>
> PAW. That limits beam diameter and tunnel length. I'm sure a train buff<BR>
> can tell you the max car length and width for standard guage rail cars.<BR>
<BR>
While rail carriage guns were generally on their own tracks, etc they <BR>
often had the gun assembly carried between two cars, and as long as you <BR>
were careful about truns in tunnels you could do that to get a bit more <BR>
length (though it'd be harder to disguise).<BR>
<BR>
> Lower TL worlds car use other train based defenses. Late TL 4-6 can use a<BR>
> combo of rail mounted coast defence guns and imported missile launchers<BR>
> mounted inside fake boxcars. By TL 5-6, they can actually *build* some of<BR>
> their own missiles (a V2 could be launched from a train if they'd wanted<BR>
> to).<BR>
> <BR>
> Coast defence guns and AA weapons would only be useful if the train was<BR>
> actually *at* the town being attacked. But "ethically challenged<BR>
> merchants" are *not* going to want to face a coast defence gun round, or<BR>
> even something like a German 88 AA gun.<BR>
> <BR>
> Sure, they can blow away the guns fairly quickly. But if the defenders get<BR>
> in a lucky shot, the repairs to the ship could be expensive. Or worse yet,<BR>
> they might get in a drive hit and be forced to land. <BR>
> <BR>
> *I* wouldn't want to be landing on a TL 5 or better planet whose<BR>
> natives I'd just attacked...<BR>
<BR>
Nope. If you thought the 88mm AA guns were bad, try the 88mm At guns <BR>
(or the 120mm ones, or the 5", 8" and 16" naval guns).<BR>
<BR>
> And god help you if the locals are willing to trade a bunch of them for<BR>
> you. Then you get to land, go for the loot, and have them dropping gas<BR>
> shells around you. Unless you are wearing a Combat Environment Suit or BD,<BR>
> you get affected by the gas. So does the ship if they don't seal it in<BR>
> time. And most nerve agents aren't visible...<BR>
<BR>
You'd need BD if they mixed some HE in to hole your suits, and they <BR>
could also use phosphous and napalm to add the the fun. That'd wipe out <BR>
a lot of your high tech vision gear's usefulness, too.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
An pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 23:18:46 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Stellar Data question...<BR>
<BR>
On 28 Mar 00, at 22:40, Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Well, raspberries *climb* ok. At least the ones I helped pick (and trim &<BR>
> train) did. <BR>
<BR>
Ah, I see. My parent's ones are just sort of bushes/scrubs, unlike the <BR>
wil blackberries down the road, which are kinda like a jungle (or NZ <BR>
bush).<BR>
<BR>
> This leads to an interesting picture. A colony that had the humans die<BR>
> decades ago, but the lights and air/water recirculation are still running.<BR>
> Air & water *recycling*, being based on a rudimentary ecosystem will do<BR>
> just fine.<BR>
> <BR>
> Picture the looks on your players faces when they get down into the<BR>
> buried city, the doors of the elevator open, and they find themselves<BR>
> facing a corridor that's one big blackberry thicket! <eg><BR>
<BR>
At that point you break out a couple of children, or goats, go back to <BR>
your ship and wait a few days.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
An pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 23:18:46 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Stellar Data question-- can "habitable" worlds exist around M	-V stars?<BR>
<BR>
On 28 Mar 00, at 22:29, Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Also, if there's a net "downward" flow of material (say, they planet is<BR>
> importing lots of "ice" and other materials from the belts or GGs) then<BR>
> the beanstalk is a *producer* of energy.<BR>
> <BR>
> Assume a measly 2 km/sec difference in escape velocity between the top and<BR>
> bottom of the stalk. That means 2 *megajoules* of energy for every<BR>
> kilogram brought down. <BR>
> <BR>
> It doesn't take a lot of excess downward traffic to provide *lots* of<BR>
> power that way.<BR>
<BR>
I believe that if the beanstalk goes through a magnetic field (like <BR>
Earth's) that you can gain power from that, too.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
An pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2210<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2211</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
Date:	3/29/00 6:51:47 AM Pacific Standard Time<BR>
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Traveller-digest     Wednesday, March 29 2000     Volume 1999 : Number 2211<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: The ecologies of space rocks with people on them<BR>
Re: Contract Law 101<BR>
Re: McGuffin<BR>
Re: Drop Tanks and Trains<BR>
Re: Flag Stoppages<BR>
McGuffin<BR>
Re: Rocks with ecologies<BR>
Re: Re Game Stores in Anchorage AK<BR>
Re: GMSound Software<BR>
Re: Border crossings<BR>
McGuffin follow-up<BR>
Re: Contract Law 101<BR>
Re: Stellar Data question-- can "habitable" worlds exist around M	-V stars?<BR>
Re: Trains, planes and automobiles<BR>
Re: Stellar Data question...<BR>
Re: GMSound Software<BR>
OT: Organized Resistance (was Re: The ecologies of space rocks with people on them)<BR>
Re: Border crossings<BR>
Re: Landgrab: Notes on building Heya<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 23:18:46 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: The ecologies of space rocks with people on them<BR>
<BR>
On 29 Mar 00, at 0:10, Damage169@cs.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> In a message dated 3/28/00 9:09:26 PM Central Standard Time, Leonard<BR>
> Erickson writes:<BR>
> <BR>
> > > Since TL 7 is approximately where we are now,<BR>
> >  <BR>
> >  Excuse me? We are at least TL-8.<BR>
> >  <BR>
> <BR>
> We, in the developed nations, are at TL 8 (with some technologies arguably<BR>
> up to TL 9), but most of the rest of the world is at TL 6-7. Some areas<BR>
> like Ethiopia and Outer Mongolia are probably even lower. It generally<BR>
> seems to average out at TL 7.<BR>
<BR>
According to the way MT did things this makes us TL8, as it's perfectly <BR>
Ok for areas away from the starport, etc to one or two TLs lower than <BR>
the rated TL.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
An pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 23:18:46 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Contract Law 101<BR>
<BR>
On 28 Mar 00, at 22:59, Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> In mail you write:<BR>
> <BR>
> > On 28 Mar 00, at 14:32, Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
> ><BR>
> >> Given that a major point was that these folks were pacifists, I think<BR>
> >> you have that wrong. My memory *does* agree that he died. But if he was<BR>
> >> killed, it was more likely someone defending themself from an attack.<BR>
> ><BR>
> > They were Gands - followers of Gandhi, as opposed to the earthling<BR>
> > "Anti-Gands". IIRC the man who never made up his Obs died of cold and<BR>
> > starvation after the word got out and nobody would do anything for him.<BR>
> ><BR>
> > That book had some nice quotes, my favourite being "Strong as a <BR>
> > thousand Gands, and as smooth as an Earthman's downfall."<BR>
> <BR>
> *Most* of the planets in that book would be great to stick in the<BR>
> Traveller universe. <BR>
> <BR>
> Besides the Gands (now *there's a planet the Imperium would just as<BR>
> soon leave un-assimilated) the only other planet I recall was the one<BR>
> settled by nudists...<BR>
<BR>
Hygeia (sp?) - not just nudists, but back to nature health freaks. IIRC <BR>
they decided that the ship's brass had to get back into their clothes <BR>
as their slug like unhealthy white bodies were too ugly to be shown in <BR>
public.<BR>
<BR>
The first world was the ex-convict colony.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
An pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 08:09:41 -0400<BR>
From: Brian Quirt <baqrt@mta.ca><BR>
Subject: Re: McGuffin<BR>
<BR>
> The "gizmo" is a teleportation device! But, as they'll find out when<BR>
> they dig deeper, it can't teleport *objects*, only atoms and (simple)<BR>
> molecules. Well, you can *try* to teleport an object. Push it through<BR>
> the "send" field and it all comes out the "recieve" field (think of the<BR>
> "field" as being a sheet stretched across an open frame). But it comes<BR>
> out as monomolecular *dust*... Not terribly useful.<BR>
> <BR>
> The test being run was an attempt to see if it can at least be used to<BR>
> remotely fuel ships.<BR>
> <BR>
> This ought to get the attention of most players. :-)<BR>
> <BR>
> There *are* more limits. Enough to make it not terribly useful in most<BR>
> cases. But few enough that the players can waste all sorts of time and<BR>
> money trying for a breakthrough.<BR>
> <BR>
> Limits:<BR>
> 1. atoms or molecules *only*. Big complex organic molecules tend to<BR>
>    break down into their component molecules in transit (ie protiens<BR>
>    tend to come out as amino acids, complex sugars and starches tend to<BR>
>    come out as simple sugars, etc)<BR>
> 2. transport occurs at light speed. So if the ship is a light second<BR>
>    away, it'll receive the fuel a second after it is sent.<BR>
> 3. "field" is one way.<BR>
> 4. momentum/energy is conserved. So if the ship is moving relative to<BR>
>    the sender, the fuel arrives with the velocity of the sender, not<BR>
>    that of the ship. Likewise, if the sender is deep in a gravity well,<BR>
>    it has to supply extra energy to send to a receiver that isn't in<BR>
>    the well. Doing the reverse means the molecules arrive with a<BR>
>    kinetic energy (temperature) appropriate to the energy difference<BR>
>    (several km/s = thousands of degrees!)<BR>
> 5. sender and receiver can't stay linked if one is in jump and the<BR>
>    other isn't. Nor can they link two ships, both of which are in jump.<BR>
>    It may be possible to re-establish a link after coming out of jump<BR>
>    in a different system, but being speed of light, it'd take 3.26<BR>
>    *years* per parsec of distance to do so. Why bother?<BR>
> <BR>
> #4 may be worked around after some research (so the velocity/energy<BR>
> differences can be handled as power input or output at the<BR>
> sender/receiver. None of the other limits are "fixable".<BR>
<BR>
This is similar to something discussed in a Larry Niven article ("The<BR>
Theory and practise of teleportation" or some such). I can remember a<BR>
few good ideas from there for its use....<BR>
<BR>
- -garbage disposal (put a receiver in the right place, and anything put<BR>
in will never be a problem again (also works for disposing of corpses as<BR>
in the first suggestion).<BR>
<BR>
- -antimissile defence (for system defence boats) (your entire hull is a<BR>
receiver. Send through something big, and you (potentially) have a LOT<BR>
of monomolecular dust moving away in all directions....<BR>
<BR>
- -smuggling (insurance for, anyway). When you're about to be inspected,<BR>
dump things through the transmitter. You'll have lost the cargo, but you<BR>
won't get arrested....<BR>
<BR>
- -water distribution (put the transmitter in a mountain stream, the<BR>
receiver in a water tower of equal altitude, and no problem. You can<BR>
even get some backup hydroelectric power from it on the way down).<BR>
<BR>
There are probably other uses, but those will wait for awhile....<BR>
<BR>
- -Brian Quirt<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 22:09:40 +1000<BR>
From: "Katharine Whitchurch" <katts@globalfreeway.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re: Drop Tanks and Trains<BR>
<BR>
> From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
> Subject: Re: Drop Tanks<BR>
><BR>
> In mail you write:<BR>
><BR>
> > 0.5% means that a ship will have an average lifespan of about 200 jumps.<BR>
> > Standard ships have a reasonable lifespan of 2000+ jumps, which means<BR>
> > that your transport costs were just upped by an order of magnitude.<BR>
><BR>
> Quick check. Banks give *40 year* loans on ships. Given 25 jumps a year<BR>
> (jump every other week, with an extra two weeks for maintenance and<BR>
> other "downtime"), a ship makes makes 1000 jumps in 40 years. Assuming<BR>
> that you can somehow manage 52 jumps a year, you get 2080 jumps.<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
The numbers are based on 30-35 jumps per year for about 60 years.<BR>
<BR>
> This means that the "average" number of jumps to kill a ship must be<BR>
> substantially more than 2000 or banks *won't* make 40 year loans on<BR>
> them! Because if half can get lost after 2000 jumps, the other half get<BR>
> lost *before* 2000 jumps. In fact, given the type of probability<BR>
> involved, I'd guess that a quarter are lost before 1000 jumps, and an<BR>
> eighth before 500 jumps.<BR>
><BR>
> There's no way in *hell* the banks can afford that loss rate. Not even<BR>
> with insurance (the insurance companies would want huge rates).<BR>
><BR>
> Misjumps need to be *really* low frequency events or banks won't do 40<BR>
> year loans.<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
Yes. Lethal misjumps need to be on the order of 0.01% or so. Non-lethal<BR>
misjumps can be higher, depending on what they do (dumping a ship somewhere<BR>
would be worse that just the jump failing).<BR>
<BR>
> From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
> Subject: Re: Trains, planes and automobiles<BR>
> Likewise, the "beam pointer" (radar unit) can be on a different car.<BR>
<BR>
Nope. No radar. We will have EW inferiority.<BR>
<BR>
> Lower TL worlds car use other train based defenses. Late TL 4-6 can use<BR>
> a combo of rail mounted coast defence guns and imported missile<BR>
> launchers mounted inside fake boxcars. By TL 5-6, they can actually<BR>
> *build* some of their own missiles (a V2 could be launched from a train<BR>
> if they'd wanted to).<BR>
><BR>
> Coast defence guns and AA weapons would only be useful if the train was<BR>
> actually *at* the town being attacked. But "ethically challenged<BR>
> merchants" are *not* going to want to face a coast defence gun round,<BR>
> or even something like a German 88 AA gun.<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
Nope. Not at all. Shells will get swatted out of the air by point defense.<BR>
<BR>
Ian Whitchurch<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 08:03:26 -0500 (EST)<BR>
From: Michael Houghton <herveus@Radix.Net><BR>
Subject: Re: Flag Stoppages<BR>
<BR>
Howdy!<BR>
<BR>
Here at the Washington Navy Yard, they raise the colors at 0800,<BR>
preceeded by Post Call at 0755. I've never managed to catch them<BR>
lowering the colors, so I don't know just when they do that.<BR>
<BR>
yours,<BR>
Michael<BR>
- -- <BR>
Michael and MJ Houghton   | Herveus d'Ormonde and Megan O'Donnelly<BR>
herveus@radix.net         | White Wolf and the Phoenix<BR>
Bowie, MD, USA            | Tablet and Inkle bands, and other stuff<BR>
                          | http://www.radix.net/~herveus/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 08:11:14 EST<BR>
From: GaryBartz@aol.com<BR>
Subject: McGuffin<BR>
<BR>
Square the energy requirements for each increase in the field size?<BR>
Make the sending part of the thing powered in the test rig by a second power <BR>
plant taken off of a 500k battleship for a sub-garden hose nozzle, that <BR>
should make it enough out of reach so as not to change very much of UTU, <BR>
while still making the corps very interested, as well as the Navy for battle <BR>
riders or fleet refuels. Outside dependant worlds in a system would also love <BR>
this for air and water, and be willing to pay the high price, and even after <BR>
the thing got passed around everywhere they would still need food, meds, and <BR>
goods that the players could ship.<BR>
<BR>
Gary<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 3/28/00 8:32:23 PM Eastern Standard Time, <BR>
owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<< If you allow this, things will change in all directions. For example,<BR>
 buld a "frame" big enough to shove an asteroid thru and just send<BR>
 specific elements on each pass.  >><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 08:32:55 EST<BR>
From: Damage169@cs.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Rocks with ecologies<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 3/29/00 5:22:18 AM Central Standard Time, Leonard Erickson <BR>
writes:<BR>
<BR>
 <BR>
>  Thanks. I suppose that it's obvious that I'm the type of guy who had<BR>
>  the inhabitants of the "dungeon" start organizing to deal with the<BR>
>  adventurers in D&D?<BR>
<BR>
Yeah, the kobolds or orcs with pikes and Molotov cocktails? Love the look on <BR>
the PCs faces.<BR>
<BR>
Doug G.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 04:28:24 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Re Game Stores in Anchorage AK<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Ob Trav: Just think about how many "Favorite Hidey Holes" can dissapear in<BR>
> a short period of time. Next time your PC's go looking for their favorite<BR>
> Shop/Bar/etc, have it not be there. And it's not been there since about a<BR>
> week after they left. People look at them funny when they ask about it, and<BR>
> then shrug and walk off. Guaranteed to get a rise out of most groups.<BR>
<BR>
It took me about a *year* to realize that the place I'm currently<BR>
living is the same neighborhood that I used to work in 25 years ago.<BR>
The building I worked in was gone, and the Supermarket had been<BR>
rebuilt (and moved back so it took up the area where the place I worked<BR>
had been. I hear there'd been a fire that took out both places) The<BR>
burger joint on the corner had turned into a 7-11. And the hobby store<BR>
were I bought all my games was now a video rental place.<BR>
<BR>
And what clued me in was the bus stop half a mile away. They'd built up<BR>
the area some, but one house had kept most of the original trees and<BR>
bushes instead of putting in a lawn...<BR>
<BR>
Then I looked around a bit harder and recognized a church half a block<BR>
away in spite of all the buildings that had sprung up. That let me<BR>
recognize the video place as the old hobby store. <BR>
<BR>
Spooky feeling. Especially given how *little* the neighborhoods I<BR>
*lived* in back then had changed.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 04:40:04 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: GMSound Software<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> With tongue firmly in cheek -<BR>
><BR>
>> On Behalf Of Leonard Erickson<BR>
>> > Is the fact that they run in DOS supposed to be a good thing ?<BR>
>><BR>
>> Yes, it means they are less likely to crash,<BR>
><BR>
> Under DOS, which has even less crash protection than Windows ?<BR>
<BR>
Yeah, but under _DOS_ the crashes are *only* because of program errors.<BR>
The _OS_ doesn't crash the system at random times!<BR>
<BR>
>> less demanding of resources<BR>
><BR>
> Because it can't use any more than 640K at a time.<BR>
<BR>
Funny, the program uses DPMI... :-)<BR>
<BR>
>> Yeah, right.<BR>
><BR>
> Actually I'm reasonably serious about that bit, it's damn simple to write<BR>
> media control applications in Java, It'd take me most of the time to come up<BR>
> with a good GUI, a command-line player would be about ten minutes work.<BR>
><BR>
>> And that makes it *unusable* under DOS, since there's no<BR>
>> Java support for "old" OSes like that.<BR>
><BR>
> Of course not, why would you ever want to use DOS ?<BR>
> You're not actually still using an AT are you ?<BR>
<BR>
My friend, I regularly make use of an 8085 system, as well as a Pocket<BR>
Computer that has all of 1.5k of RAM. <BR>
<BR>
And I'll have you know that until a year ago, I was using a 286 XT<BR>
class system, *not* an AT. <BR>
<BR>
> Anything more modern can run better OS's than DOS.<BR>
<BR>
Ever hear of OS-9? It multitasks, uses RAM efficiently and runs on the<BR>
6809. <BR>
<BR>
>> Also, "OS independent" means "resource hog on all OSes". Doesn't<BR>
>> anybody write *optimized* code anymore?<BR>
><BR>
> Yes. All Java byte-code is far more optimized than any native code.<BR>
> Of course it's optimized for size, i.e: speed of downloading, not<BR>
> speed of execution.<BR>
<BR>
But you have to include the size of the Java "interpreter" and<BR>
libraries. It's like the way MS BASIC compilers made "smaller" programs<BR>
by using the BASRUN library rather than linking the code into the<BR>
executable. That saved space if you had *lots* of programs, but made<BR>
the programs unusable without that extra file.<BR>
<BR>
BTW, the *dumbest* case of "Windows think" I've come across was a web<BR>
site where they had a set of DOS drivers for a card. They were in a<BR>
self-extracting Zip file. A *Windows* self-extracting zip file. You try<BR>
to run it under DOS and you got the "This program requires Microsoft<BR>
Windows" message. <BR>
<BR>
I was about ready to drop a near-c rock on them. Instead, I rebooted,<BR>
selected Win95 from Boot Manager, and when (eventually) the system came<BR>
up, I ran the file in an empty directory on one of the Server volumes.<BR>
Then I switched the display and keyboard over to the old 486 that's<BR>
running one of my fidonet nodes and re-zipped the file with Win 95 was<BR>
shutting down (I've got 3 systems hooked to the same keyboard and<BR>
monitor via a switchbox). <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 04:58:28 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Border crossings<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Man that was FREAKY - esp considered that both places have nukes (I know -<BR>
> the ability to deploy is still earlier days - but even so they be nukey<BR>
> now).<BR>
<BR>
Well, they've got bombers. And they've got *far* better missiles than<BR>
the V-2. In fact, since India has orbited a satellite that *definitely*<BR>
have the ability to build ICBMs. <BR>
<BR>
Anybody recall if Pakistan has orbited anything?<BR>
<BR>
> Ob Trav; I'm going to stick above Ob Trav in my game. It's totally worth it.<BR>
> Jeez you wouldn't want to drop your sidearm and have it go off in a<BR>
> situation like that (unlikely I know) - there'd be a shooting war in 2<BR>
> minutes.<BR>
<BR>
Read up on the way things are at the DMZ in Korea... They *do* shoot.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 04:56:33 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: McGuffin follow-up<BR>
<BR>
I'm pleased that so many of you like the idea. Just one request. If you<BR>
use it on players, do let me know how it goes... <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 05:06:05 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Contract Law 101<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> On 28 Mar 00, at 22:59, Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>> In mail you write:<BR>
>> <BR>
>> > On 28 Mar 00, at 14:32, Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
>> ><BR>
>> >> Given that a major point was that these folks were pacifists, I think<BR>
>> >> you have that wrong. My memory *does* agree that he died. But if he was<BR>
>> >> killed, it was more likely someone defending themself from an attack.<BR>
>> ><BR>
>> > They were Gands - followers of Gandhi, as opposed to the earthling<BR>
>> > "Anti-Gands". IIRC the man who never made up his Obs died of cold and<BR>
>> > starvation after the word got out and nobody would do anything for him.<BR>
>> ><BR>
>> > That book had some nice quotes, my favourite being "Strong as a <BR>
>> > thousand Gands, and as smooth as an Earthman's downfall."<BR>
>> <BR>
>> *Most* of the planets in that book would be great to stick in the<BR>
>> Traveller universe. <BR>
>> <BR>
>> Besides the Gands (now *there's a planet the Imperium would just as<BR>
>> soon leave un-assimilated) the only other planet I recall was the one<BR>
>> settled by nudists...<BR>
><BR>
> Hygeia (sp?) - not just nudists, but back to nature health freaks. IIRC <BR>
> they decided that the ship's brass had to get back into their clothes <BR>
> as their slug like unhealthy white bodies were too ugly to be shown in <BR>
> public.<BR>
><BR>
> The first world was the ex-convict colony.<BR>
<BR>
I can't seem to recall any details about that one...<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 05:06:51 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Stellar Data question-- can "habitable" worlds exist around M	-V stars?<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> On 28 Mar 00, at 22:29, Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>> Also, if there's a net "downward" flow of material (say, they planet is<BR>
>> importing lots of "ice" and other materials from the belts or GGs) then<BR>
>> the beanstalk is a *producer* of energy.<BR>
>> <BR>
>> Assume a measly 2 km/sec difference in escape velocity between the top and<BR>
>> bottom of the stalk. That means 2 *megajoules* of energy for every<BR>
>> kilogram brought down. <BR>
>> <BR>
>> It doesn't take a lot of excess downward traffic to provide *lots* of<BR>
>> power that way.<BR>
><BR>
> I believe that if the beanstalk goes through a magnetic field (like <BR>
> Earth's) that you can gain power from that, too.<BR>
<BR>
Nope, beanstalks are *stationary*. They don't move thru the field.<BR>
Tethers do. <BR>
<BR>
You *could* try tapping the potential difference between the ground and<BR>
the ionisphere. But that could have nasty side effects. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 05:16:18 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Trains, planes and automobiles<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> On 28 Mar 00, at 20:42, Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>> Well, at those TLs the locomotives will be diesel-electric. Which is<BR>
>> *good*. Because a diesel-electric is bacicly a honking *big* diesel<BR>
>> generator (I'd not be surprised to find that they are rated in<BR>
>> *megawatts*, check some web sites), some fancy current/voltage changing<BR>
>> gear that acts as a transmission, and some honking big electric motors.<BR>
><BR>
> I'd be very surprised if they weren't rated that high, because a MW is <BR>
> only about 1340 horsepower.<BR>
<BR>
Yeah, I hadn't done the calculation then...<BR>
<BR>
So, like I said, a few of those puppies will power one *hell* of a PAW!<BR>
<BR>
>> So the only limit is on the size of the car that has to hold the actual<BR>
>> PAW. That limits beam diameter and tunnel length. I'm sure a train buff<BR>
>> can tell you the max car length and width for standard guage rail cars.<BR>
><BR>
> While rail carriage guns were generally on their own tracks, etc they <BR>
> often had the gun assembly carried between two cars, and as long as you <BR>
> were careful about truns in tunnels you could do that to get a bit more <BR>
> length (though it'd be harder to disguise).<BR>
<BR>
Yeah, but we want this to work on regular tracks, as well as not look<BR>
too suspicious.<BR>
<BR>
>> Coast defence guns and AA weapons would only be useful if the train was<BR>
>> actually *at* the town being attacked. But "ethically challenged<BR>
>> merchants" are *not* going to want to face a coast defence gun round, or<BR>
>> even something like a German 88 AA gun.<BR>
>> <BR>
>> Sure, they can blow away the guns fairly quickly. But if the defenders get<BR>
>> in a lucky shot, the repairs to the ship could be expensive. Or worse yet,<BR>
>> they might get in a drive hit and be forced to land. <BR>
>> <BR>
>> *I* wouldn't want to be landing on a TL 5 or better planet whose<BR>
>> natives I'd just attacked...<BR>
><BR>
> Nope. If you thought the 88mm AA guns were bad, try the 88mm At guns <BR>
> (or the 120mm ones, or the 5", 8" and 16" naval guns).<BR>
><BR>
>> And god help you if the locals are willing to trade a bunch of them for<BR>
>> you. Then you get to land, go for the loot, and have them dropping gas<BR>
>> shells around you. Unless you are wearing a Combat Environment Suit or BD,<BR>
>> you get affected by the gas. So does the ship if they don't seal it in<BR>
>> time. And most nerve agents aren't visible...<BR>
><BR>
> You'd need BD if they mixed some HE in to hole your suits, and they <BR>
> could also use phosphous and napalm to add the the fun. That'd wipe out <BR>
> a lot of your high tech vision gear's usefulness, too.<BR>
<BR>
I find one of the better ways to come up with "nasty" defences like<BR>
these is to pretend that the defenders are Nazis in occupied territory,<BR>
or Soviets under Stalin. <BR>
<BR>
And if the players are captured, you can introduce them to those<BR>
*wonderful* "native resorts" (aka "gulags" or "concentration camps").<BR>
And the Imperium *won't* be in any hurry to bail them out. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 05:10:14 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Stellar Data question...<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> On 28 Mar 00, at 22:40, Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>> Well, raspberries *climb* ok. At least the ones I helped pick (and trim &<BR>
>> train) did. <BR>
><BR>
> Ah, I see. My parent's ones are just sort of bushes/scrubs, unlike the <BR>
> wil blackberries down the road, which are kinda like a jungle (or NZ <BR>
> bush).<BR>
<BR>
I think there may be a couple of varieties. Here in Oregon, we suffer<BR>
from having had the Himalayan Blackberry introduced sometime in the<BR>
1800s. It produces the most *amazing* thickets.<BR>
<BR>
>> This leads to an interesting picture. A colony that had the humans die<BR>
>> decades ago, but the lights and air/water recirculation are still running.<BR>
>> Air & water *recycling*, being based on a rudimentary ecosystem will do<BR>
>> just fine.<BR>
>> <BR>
>> Picture the looks on your players faces when they get down into the<BR>
>> buried city, the doors of the elevator open, and they find themselves<BR>
>> facing a corridor that's one big blackberry thicket! <eg><BR>
><BR>
> At that point you break out a couple of children, or goats, go back to <BR>
> your ship and wait a few days.<BR>
<BR>
Funny you should mention that. Some friends who live on the edge of<BR>
town had much of their property taken over by blackberries. They bought<BR>
a kid. He's now a full grown goat. And they no longer have a blackberry<BR>
problem. <BR>
<BR>
They are planning on making a goat cart for him to pull when they are<BR>
at SCA events. <BR>
<BR>
BTW, I'm *amazed* at the way Giles the goat can cheerfully munch away<BR>
at stuff I can't even pick up without gloves...<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 07:21:22 -0700 (MST)<BR>
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU><BR>
Subject: Re: GMSound Software<BR>
<BR>
On Tue, 28 Mar 2000, Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> In mail you write:<BR>
 <BR>
> It's like running an emulator or an interpreter. Less efficient than<BR>
> native code. Of course, with this attitude I ought to be running a RISC<BR>
> chip. :-)<BR>
> <BR>
> But try finding software...<BR>
<BR>
Well there's is this really nifty OS that runs on RISC chips...this sort<BR>
of fruit named company sells it, Strawberry, no, Banana, no APPLE! Yeah,<BR>
That's it! ( And Linux PPC, and Darwin, and soon Mac OSX ) :-P<BR>
<BR>
for software, lessee, MacWarehouse, MacZone, MacMall, Mac Connection all do mail order,<BR>
and CompUSA even sells a couple of titles...<BR>
<BR>
Of course, if you want to get really macochistic, IBM sells this RISC<BR>
using os called AIX...like Unix only IBM-ified for your confusion...<BR>
<BR>
Bruce Johnson<BR>
University of Arizona<BR>
College of Pharmacy<BR>
Information Technology Group<BR>
<BR>
Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 09:26:59 -0500<BR>
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU><BR>
Subject: OT: Organized Resistance (was Re: The ecologies of space rocks with people on them)<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erikson wrote:<BR>
>Thanks. I suppose that it's obvious that I'm the type of guy who had<BR>
>the inhabitants of the "dungeon" start organizing to deal with the<BR>
>adventurers in D&D?<BR>
<BR>
I will always recall the looks on their faces when a bunch of kobolds<BR>
killed their 5th and 6th level characters. Not on the way into the<BR>
dungeon - but by ambushing them on the way *out*.<BR>
<BR>
It's amazing how vulnerable a party of adventurers can be when they've<BR>
used up all their spells, most of their hit points, and all of their<BR>
encumbrance. <BR>
<BR>
"Wait a minute. I thought you said *fourteen* kobolds!!"<BR>
            - famous last words of a dungeon delver<BR>
<BR>
ObTrav: We're gearing up in a PBeM for a long range survey mission.<BR>
I really hope the Captain puts as much mind into getting back as<BR>
she does into getting out.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 06:40:07<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Border crossings<BR>
<BR>
At 05:05 AM 3/30/2000 +1000, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>the motions with a LOT of panache' ( to show off?) and salute each other and<BR>
>show perfect military courtesy to each other, even though they hate each<BR>
>other...<BR>
<BR>
You want real fun? Go to Panmujon, Korea. This is the place where the DMZ<BR>
narrows to six inches and runs down the middle of a table. The American and<BR>
North Korean guards spend all day trying to out do each other.<BR>
<BR>
I understand that one of the current rages among troops is to make a big<BR>
show of throwing away half-eaten burgers within line of sight of the NKs.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 06:50:31<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Landgrab: Notes on building Heya<BR>
<BR>
At 04:24 PM 3/28/2000 PST, you wrote:<BR>
>In mail you write:<BR>
><BR>
>> Around 1100 Heya is plagued by guerrillas hostile to the local government.<BR>
>> Heya only source of off-planet currency is tourism[*] and the government<BR>
>> conceals the extent of the problems and restricts tourists to the <BR>
>> relatively safe areas south of the capital. Due to the rebels imports<BR>
>> restrictions on weapons are very tight. [TB:129]<BR>
>><BR>
>> [*] What, no agricultural exports?<BR>
><BR>
>Maybe there's no place close enough that needs ag imports badly enough<BR>
>for the run to be profitable for a megacorp. Free traders just can't<BR>
>*handle* a *significant* amount of ag export cargo. <BR>
<BR>
You have two High Population worlds nearby, neither of which can support<BR>
themselves.<BR>
<BR>
Enope/Reginea has a population of 6 billion and a trace atmosphere, while<BR>
Rethe/Regina has 30 billion and no water!<BR>
<BR>
The subsector governemnt would gladly subsidize a few 60,000dt bulk grain<BR>
haulers to insure that these worlds got some food.  That's a big part of my<BR>
write up, since it explains the nice starport, and gives the Imperium a<BR>
lever to put those Vargr refugees in place (the planetary governemnt was<BR>
told accept them or we call in the balance of the loans.)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
Wide unclasp    | These same thoughts<BR>
the tables of   | people this<BR>
their thoughts. | little World<BR>
<BR>
- - stained glass window in the <BR>
  Winchester Mystery House.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2211<BR>
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Traveller-digest     Wednesday, March 29 2000     Volume 1999 : Number 2212<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Crossing Worlds<BR>
Re: Rocks with ecologies<BR>
RE: Border crossings<BR>
Re: Scalable deckplans<BR>
RE: Flag Stoppages<BR>
TNE Answers<BR>
Re: Border crossings<BR>
Re: Beanstalks<BR>
Re: Stellar Data question...<BR>
Re: Flag Stoppages<BR>
RE:Grav-powered floating cities?<BR>
Grav mechanics(was:Re: Grav Powered Floating Cities)<BR>
Re: Flag Stoppages<BR>
Re: Traveller 3D maps and Computers at the game table<BR>
Grav-powered floating cities II<BR>
Re: Drop Tanks<BR>
Re: TNE Answers<BR>
Multimedia Traveller<BR>
Filk explosion! Rhylanor<BR>
Filk explosion! Pirates on the Run<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 08:52:49 -0600<BR>
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Crossing Worlds<BR>
<BR>
Luther Martin posted:<BR>
><BR>
<snip><BR>
><BR>
>But wait, I thought, these guys have incredible psionic powers. It would be<BR>
>a shame to waste all of the game so far. How about a cross-dimensional<BR>
>misjump to another world where psionic powers are the basis for magic.<BR>
Being<BR>
>a big fan of the Tekumel setting, I saw the perfect opportunity.<BR>
><BR>
>So sparks fly, power surges happen, and something clearly goes wrong with<BR>
>the jump. When they emerge, all of the stars except the local system are<BR>
>gone...<BR>
<BR>
Tekumel?!? What?!?!<BR>
<BR>
I and three of my friends who live in different states aren't the only<BR>
ones who still play?<BR>
<BR>
La! If you're ever in Jakalla, come by the house of the Clan of<BR>
Crimson Ivory for some chilled chumetl.<BR>
<BR>
Jurrubin hiValshan<BR>
High Priest of Karakan<BR>
(a.k.a. Plekr Plestiebr, Commodore, Zhodani Navy)<BR>
"Misjumps *can* be interesting."<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 06:55:06<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Rocks with ecologies<BR>
<BR>
At 08:32 AM 3/29/2000 EST, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>>  Thanks. I suppose that it's obvious that I'm the type of guy who had<BR>
>>  the inhabitants of the "dungeon" start organizing to deal with the<BR>
>>  adventurers in D&D?<BR>
><BR>
>Yeah, the kobolds or orcs with pikes and Molotov cocktails? Love the look on <BR>
>the PCs faces.<BR>
<BR>
There are still people in therapy because of my kobolds.. hehehehe....<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 09:59:32 -0500<BR>
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net><BR>
Subject: RE: Border crossings<BR>
<BR>
>Is that the one where when they close the gates (each has a gate on a major<BR>
>thoroughfare with about twenty metres apart) by slamming them then do this<BR>
>hop/skip march away with barely concealed hostility?<BR>
<BR>
If it's the same show that I caught, they're directly next to each other.<BR>
It's less of a "match" and it looks like it's entirely synchronized. The<BR>
guards are quite formal to each other as well.<BR>
<BR>
>Man that was FREAKY - esp considered that both places have nukes (I know -<BR>
>the ability to deploy is still earlier days - but even so they be nukey<BR>
>now).<BR>
<BR>
The ability of each country to deploy might still be in earlier stages, but<BR>
India and Pakistan can easily hit each other.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 10:44:33 EST<BR>
From: Kagehira@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Scalable deckplans<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 3/28/00 5:32:23 PM Pacific Standard Time, <BR>
owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
> Personally, I'd like to see plans in a scalable *vector* format. Then<BR>
>  you can feed them into a *plotter*. Since even my "tiny" HP-7475A can<BR>
>  do 11x17 (B-size), this is a not to be ignored option. <BR>
>  <BR>
>  And I'd love to see how some of the *big* ship plans (or world maps)<BR>
>  look done on an E sized plotter.<BR>
>  <BR>
>  Paper sizes:<BR>
>  A = 8.5" x 11"<BR>
>  B = 11" x 17"<BR>
>  C = 17" x 22"<BR>
>  D = 22" x 34"<BR>
>  E = 34" x 44"<BR>
>  <BR>
>  As far as I know, there is no "F" size!<BR>
>  <BR>
>  But you have to admit that an E sized map or plan would nicely cover<BR>
>  that dining rom table. :-)<BR>
<BR>
The next version of the HIWG CD will include that option (baring unforeseen <BR>
events).<BR>
<BR>
Bryan<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 09:58:03 -0600<BR>
From: "Moody, Danny M." <DMoody@bridge.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Flag Stoppages<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: Douglas E. Berry [mailto:gridlore@pop.mindspring.com]<BR>
> ><BR>
> >And what about that cannon?<BR>
> <BR>
> Feh. It fires at the end of the ceremony, IIRC. And by that <BR>
> time you are<BR>
> well on your way to the fleshpots and bacterial breeding <BR>
> grounds of Victory<BR>
> Drive.<BR>
<BR>
<babyplucky><BR>
	Eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeewwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww!!!!<BR>
</babyplucky><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
vargr1                                                   UPP-8D9B85<BR>
- ---------------------------- Omnia dicta fortiora, si dicta latina.<BR>
Meyers-Briggs personality type: ENTJ                vargr1@jcn1*com<BR>
"...the ENTJ is not one to be trifled with."      dmoody@bridge*com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 16:43:08 +0100<BR>
From: "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk><BR>
Subject: TNE Answers<BR>
<BR>
I found the recent discussion of the Black Curtain and other TNE answers<BR>
interesting, mainly because somebody suggested Marc publish a book with the<BR>
answers in it.<BR>
<BR>
Well.<BR>
<BR>
I have been discussing that very issue for a while, and the possibility<BR>
exists that it may happen.<BR>
<BR>
I mentioned this on-list a few days back and invited comment, but I must<BR>
have been having one of my Invisible days because there was no response.<BR>
I'll try again....<BR>
<BR>
I'm in negotiation with a couple of e-publishers about a TNE novel line, and<BR>
talking to Marc about carrying it on into the future. The Wave, the Curtain<BR>
etc will feature in due course. The entire project hinges upon there being<BR>
sufficient interest. Given the lack of response, maybe there isn't enough.<BR>
<BR>
So: Anyone care to discuss this:<BR>
<BR>
1. The Answers will be found in the pages of fiction. I have a novel of mine<BR>
and one by a famous Traveller author ready to go, and interest from a<BR>
publisher. If they do OK then we should be able to carry on.<BR>
<BR>
2. The books will be in e-book form only.<BR>
<BR>
I need to know if it's worth pursuing. Is it?<BR>
<BR>
Regards<BR>
<BR>
MJD<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 09:29:35 -0700<BR>
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Border crossings<BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> I understand that one of the current rages among troops is to make a big<BR>
> show of throwing away half-eaten burgers within line of sight of the NKs.<BR>
<BR>
Oh, MAN that's cold...<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Bruce Johnson<BR>
University of Arizona<BR>
College of Pharmacy<BR>
Information Technology Group<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 11:38:35 EST<BR>
From: Kagehira@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Beanstalks<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 3/29/00 3:22:04 AM Pacific Standard Time, <BR>
owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
> "Rotovators" aka "revolving tethers" are another possibility. <BR>
>  <BR>
>  Somebody *really* needs to do up articles about these and other<BR>
>  "interesting" technologies with an eye towards making it easy for<BR>
>  authors and gamers to figure out how well they'd work on different<BR>
>  sorts of worlds.<BR>
<BR>
There is an old article/paper on beanstalks on the CD.<BR>
<BR>
Bryan<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 12:04:51 -0500<BR>
From: "DaveShayne" <daveshayne@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Stellar Data question...<BR>
<BR>
>Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 17:20:00 PST<BR>
>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<snip><BR>
<BR>
>To build up reserves, there may be port regulations requiring ships to<BR>
>dump their "sewage" before leaving port (with exceptions for ships that<BR>
>actually recycle the sewage rather than merely extract the water and<BR>
>dump the rest in port). And limiting/taxing purchase of "extra"<BR>
>food/water over and above what is "needed" for the trip. And even<BR>
>"encouraging" a visit to the restroom before boarding ship.<BR>
<BR>
"The Tourism Council of Heya hope you have enjoyed your visit to our<BR>
home and reminds you that you have one last chance to make use of<BR>
our palatially appointed 'Freshers."<BR>
<BR>
<snip><BR>
<BR>
Dave Shayne<BR>
<BR>
"Now the workers have struck for fame<BR>
    cuz Lennon's on sale again." - David Bowie<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 11:54:04 -0500<BR>
From: "James Earl" <jearl@mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Flag Stoppages<BR>
<BR>
> >> From: Douglas E. Berry [mailto:gridlore@pop.mindspring.com]<BR>
><BR>
> >> "Honestly, sir. I didn't hear the music!"<BR>
> ><BR>
> >And what about that cannon?<BR>
><BR>
> Feh. It fires at the end of the ceremony, IIRC. And by that time you are<BR>
> well on your way to the fleshpots and bacterial breeding grounds of<BR>
Victory<BR>
> Drive.<BR>
> --<BR>
><BR>
> Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
> http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
Heh, Victory Drive isn't so bad anymore. They actually closed down the<BR>
Traffic Light Lounge, which was my favorite "Alternate Entertainment<BR>
Establishment". The Columbus city council has gone on a morality kick the<BR>
last few years. They've even decided to enact an ordinance that would forbid<BR>
establishments that feature nekkid women from serving booze. There is now<BR>
officially nothing fun to do here.<BR>
<BR>
ObTrav: What would bored off-duty Imperial servicepeople do on a world where<BR>
the government closed down all the entertainment for "moral reasons"?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 12:08:57 -0500<BR>
From: "Terry Carlino" <carlino@home.com><BR>
Subject: RE:Grav-powered floating cities?<BR>
<BR>
>I' ve found several references to grav-powered floating cities on High-Tech<BR>
>worlds in Traveller.<BR>
><BR>
>My question is:<BR>
><BR>
>Why? I mean, why should anyone build such a city? Every technology can<BR>
>fail, so it's an additional source for desasters. Plus it's not easy to<BR>
>walk to a suburb...<BR>
<BR>
Because we can!<BR>
<BR>
Why build a city on top of one of the most seismically active faults in<BR>
North America? Why build a major resort city smack in the middle of a<BR>
hurricane pathway? Why build on the seacoast at all (except for ocean<BR>
terminals?) Why are $500,000 homes built on rivers and beaches in the middle<BR>
of the flood plain.<BR>
<BR>
Because the view is good. Because I want to live next to the ocean so I can<BR>
walk down the beach and get easy access to my boat. Because the air is<BR>
clean, the mountains are right here, and I like the lifestyle.<BR>
<BR>
Because I can!<BR>
<BR>
Terry C<BR>
All that is Gold does not glitter<BR>
Not all who travel are lost<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 18:18:26 +0200<BR>
From: Ingo Heinscher <Hiroshi.Estigarribia@gmx.de><BR>
Subject: Grav mechanics(was:Re: Grav Powered Floating Cities)<BR>
<BR>
At 23:19 28.03.00 PST, Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Ok, it's like this. Gravity exerts a *force* on the city. But energy is<BR>
>force times DISTANCE MOVED. So it takes energy to *move* the city<BR>
>upwards against the force of gravity. And lowering the city *releases*<BR>
>energy. <BR>
<BR>
But that is not true if contragravity is more like a "graviton thruster".<BR>
<BR>
[snip- analogy to electromagnetism)<BR>
<BR>
This might be an answer. But what about starship maneuver drives? How do<BR>
they work, since their technology is claimed to be based on gravitics?<BR>
 <BR>
- -- <BR>
"This was not meant to be an aggresssion against the Siru Zirka. But we had<BR>
to organize our affairs a bit more efficiently. To be honest, we have had<BR>
to do this for almost 300 years by now."<BR>
unknown Terran politician, -2398 Imp<BR>
;-) ingo heinscher <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 19:30:33 +0200<BR>
From: Ingo Heinscher <Hiroshi.Estigarribia@gmx.de><BR>
Subject: Re: Flag Stoppages<BR>
<BR>
At 11:23 28.03.00 -0900, William F. Hostman wrote:<BR>
>>Speaking of flag stuff, whilst leaving the library at our Tri-service<BR>
>>military academy they were lowering the flag out the front. The WO blew a<BR>
>>whistle and two students who'd been walking/chatting in front immeditaly<BR>
>>went into attention mode until the whistle went again.<BR>
>><BR>
>>Is this a stock standard flag thing for Western (English Speaking) armies -<BR>
>>or just an academy thing?<BR>
>><BR>
>On both Elmendorf AFB and Fort Richardson, it seems that everything stops<BR>
>during the flag lowering ceremonies. Well, everyone outdoors in earshot of<BR>
>the PA system at the HQ buildings (Which have an effective range of nearly<BR>
>a mile).<BR>
<BR>
And I can confitm similar ceremonies for the German Bundeswehr.<BR>
<BR>
>I agree, the Sunburst lowering would be a wonderful image.<BR>
><BR>
>Still won't make me buy any more GT %^^&. ;)<BR>
<BR>
? Why not?<BR>
<BR>
Just curious.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
"This was not meant to be an aggresssion against the Siru Zirka. But we had<BR>
to organize our affairs a bit more efficiently. To be honest, we have had<BR>
to do this for almost 300 years by now."<BR>
unknown Terran politician, -2398 Imp<BR>
;-) ingo heinscher <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 18:18:05 +0200<BR>
From: Ingo Heinscher <Hiroshi.Estigarribia@gmx.de><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller 3D maps and Computers at the game table<BR>
<BR>
At 18:26 28.03.00 PST, Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>> Absolutely true. But imagine a model with more than 50 stars... It wouldn't<BR>
>> be very helpful for play, I suppose. <BR>
><BR>
>I think it could be useful. It'd be a real bear to *build* though.<BR>
<BR>
50 stars? How large do want this cube to be? How would you want to use a<BR>
"ruler" at the stars in the centre?<BR>
<BR>
>> So no problem there. Why don't I like the idea anyway?<BR>
>> Conservatism?<BR>
><BR>
>Well, if done "wrong", they might as well be logging in from home..<BR>
<BR>
?<BR>
You are planning to connect that LAN to the Internet? Why?<BR>
<BR>
[snip]<BR>
>> Mhm, that directs your session towards LARP. What if you have a player with<BR>
>> absolutely no idea about computers who plays a computer tech? Or the other<BR>
>> way round?<BR>
><BR>
>That's why "icons" do a "Hey, stupid, look at me!" color change and<BR>
>flash a lot... (Ok, that's not entirely serious, but it should work) <BR>
<BR>
:) Well, I know people who don't even understand when you *explain* them.<BR>
They need not be stupid, just have _no_ understanding at all about<BR>
computers. And the other way round? What would youndo about that?<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
"This was not meant to be an aggresssion against the Siru Zirka. But we had<BR>
to organize our affairs a bit more efficiently. To be honest, we have had<BR>
to do this for almost 300 years by now."<BR>
unknown Terran politician, -2398 Imp<BR>
;-) ingo heinscher <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 18:21:47 +0200<BR>
From: Ingo Heinscher <Hiroshi.Estigarribia@gmx.de><BR>
Subject: Grav-powered floating cities II<BR>
<BR>
Okay, I 've received a lot of answers. Thank you all. I would like to<BR>
summarize those points I have a different POV on.<BR>
<BR>
Of course, there must be some economical reason for building such a city or<BR>
palace. Be it luxury or necessity, someone must believe it's worth the money. <BR>
<BR>
I accept luxury and prestige as reasons to build a grav palace. (On the<BR>
Imperial Place, see below.) But then there were some points I still don't<BR>
understand:<BR>
<BR>
- -Seismic activity and heavy volcanism on an _entire_ planet? AFAIK this<BR>
would mean that the planet is either extremely young  or close to death due<BR>
to gravitatinal powers of neighbouring planets. (Gas giants, for example).<BR>
Who would invest on a planet that is going to be shattered within a few<BR>
decades? A young planet might be an explanation, tough I still believe it<BR>
is cheaper then to build an orbital facilityand use shuttlecraft for the<BR>
work on the planet's surface.<BR>
<BR>
- -Ocean Worlds. Even if there is no continental shelf, it might still be<BR>
cheaper to build an oil-platform-like structure than gravity-based floating<BR>
structures. On the ability to avoid vast storms: The need for energy would<BR>
be even larger for structures that can move at significant speeds (i.e.<BR>
speeds to avoid a forecast storm). Also, I would assume that a civilization<BR>
with both the knowledge and the capital to build floating cities should be<BR>
able to establish efficient whether control at a much lower price.<BR>
<BR>
- -Cultural seggregation: It is far cheaper to move to another world if you<BR>
want that. If you want to keep close to the population that you want to<BR>
segregate from, just buy a large area of land from them and secure it with<BR>
more conventional means. Walls, for example. And build a high structure to<BR>
look over that wall. You'll do cheaper. And safer:<BR>
<BR>
- -The security issue: It is true that you can plan in some redundancy on the<BR>
part of the grav modules. AFAIK it is also true that similar things are<BR>
done in modern aircraft design. But AFAIK aircraft still crash from time to<BR>
time. This might be acceptable for 200-400 passengers to happen. But an<BR>
entire _city_? If you had an insurance company, what would you charge for<BR>
in such a case?<BR>
<BR>
- -Psychology of the underlings (which would only be true for humans and the<BR>
like, though this is not a problem here): A large building is much cheaper,<BR>
and even more impressive. If you walk there, you realize how small you<BR>
really are. A floating city will just demonstrate a distance between the<BR>
rulers and the ruled. But it is also farer away from the ground, so if an<BR>
underling looks at it, she will see only adot in the sky.<BR>
<BR>
- -Atmospheric coditions allowing no ground-settlements(pressure or heat):<BR>
This is essentiallly the same problem as on a ocean world. And IMHO it will<BR>
not occur very often. (The atm code for Traveller is D or something, IIRC...)<BR>
<BR>
- -Human drive to play with technolgy and achieve great deeds: This would<BR>
explain, say, one grav city in Domain or perhaps a sector. I got the<BR>
impression from what I read (TL tabels, for example) that these cities are<BR>
far more often. Though I may be wrong here, and if this is the case, I am<BR>
satisfied. <BR>
<BR>
- -Freeing up land for agriculture, recreation etc: This would require the<BR>
land in question to be ridiculously expensive. Plus you could much cheaper<BR>
build cities below the surface.<BR>
<BR>
Of course, _if_ grav floating cities are not common at all, it's just me<BR>
misunderstanding sources. In this case, I could imagine adding grav<BR>
buildings to MTU as noble's plaything or rare touristic atrractions.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
"This was not meant to be an aggresssion against the Siru Zirka. But we had<BR>
to organize our affairs a bit more efficiently. To be honest, we have had<BR>
to do this for almost 300 years by now."<BR>
unknown Terran politician, -2398 Imp<BR>
;-) ingo heinscher <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 12:40:42 -0500<BR>
From: "Terry Carlino" <carlino@home.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Drop Tanks<BR>
<BR>
Subject: >Drop tanks are more or<BR>
>less single use. They are made of cheap materials. (They can be salvaged<BR>
and<BR>
>reused, but this is icing on the cake. They are not specifically designed<BR>
>for reuse.)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
But why aren't they designed for reuse?  If you work out the<BR>
numbers, that's were they have their impact and its hard<BR>
reationalize that they couldn't be made reusuable.<BR>
<BR>
IMTU I don't make them reusable because I don't especially want drop tanks<BR>
to realign the entire economic basis of my game universe. Is this a good<BR>
reason? If not let me come up with another.<BR>
<BR>
Let's discuss one of my RL pet peeves. In the U.S. public transportation is<BR>
almost non-existent outside the Northeast. (There are exceptions so don't<BR>
send replies citing SF or Seattle, etc. It's a generalization applicable to<BR>
most of the country.) That is because public transportation must "pay it's<BR>
own way" in most jurisdictions. No one requires the automobile pay its own<BR>
way. Sure we pay road taxes, but they don't begin to cover the cost of<BR>
roads, let alone the related costs. For instance, how many fewer deaths a<BR>
year would we have if there were fewer drunk drivers, not because people<BR>
didn't drink, but because they didn't drive after drinking because they<BR>
could take a high speed train or electric bus home? How many fewer police<BR>
would we need, or be better able to utilize them because  we didn't need<BR>
them sitting on the road looking for drunks and enforcing traffic laws.<BR>
(Yeah we get some of this back in fines, but how much of the fine money goes<BR>
back into roads?)<BR>
<BR>
In short there is a whole structure of government, insurance, automobile<BR>
manufacture, petroleum, construction, and who knows what else in existence<BR>
to support the roads and almost no structure to support public<BR>
transportation, even though in the long run it's total cost would be less.<BR>
<BR>
Maybe drop tanks would cut out whole sections of Jump main worlds that would<BR>
be bypassed by J-6 ships with jump tanks. Whole Megacorps might lose<BR>
business because information is now able to travel faster than they can<BR>
respond. Maybe the Imperium and some Megacorps are already using drop tanks<BR>
as part of a "secret" fast courier system and they don't want the other<BR>
Megacorps and Interstellar governments to know how effective they are. The<BR>
point is that there are factors other than economic involved.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Terry C<BR>
All that is Gold does not glitter<BR>
Not all who travel are lost<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 19:37:08 +0200<BR>
From: Ingo Heinscher <Hiroshi.Estigarribia@gmx.de><BR>
Subject: Re: TNE Answers<BR>
<BR>
At 16:43 29.03.00 +0100, MJ Dougherty wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>I mentioned this on-list a few days back and invited comment, but I must<BR>
>have been having one of my Invisible days because there was no response.<BR>
>I'll try again....<BR>
><BR>
>I'm in negotiation with a couple of e-publishers about a TNE novel line, and<BR>
>talking to Marc about carrying it on into the future. The Wave, the Curtain<BR>
>etc will feature in due course. The entire project hinges upon there being<BR>
>sufficient interest. Given the lack of response, maybe there isn't enough.<BR>
<BR>
Well, for me it was not clear what you had in mind. What you tell now is<BR>
quite interesting. <BR>
<BR>
>So: Anyone care to discuss this:<BR>
><BR>
>1. The Answers will be found in the pages of fiction. I have a novel of mine<BR>
>and one by a famous Traveller author ready to go, and interest from a<BR>
>publisher. If they do OK then we should be able to carry on.<BR>
><BR>
>2. The books will be in e-book form only.<BR>
><BR>
>I need to know if it's worth pursuing. Is it?<BR>
<BR>
IMO it *definitely* is. Though I'd want a printed version, too. Just for<BR>
the bookshelf.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
"This was not meant to be an aggresssion against the Siru Zirka. But we had<BR>
to organize our affairs a bit more efficiently. To be honest, we have had<BR>
to do this for almost 300 years by now."<BR>
unknown Terran politician, -2398 Imp<BR>
;-) ingo heinscher <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 11:53:14 -0600<BR>
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com><BR>
Subject: Multimedia Traveller<BR>
<BR>
Heads up, folks!<BR>
<BR>
Photos of the asteroid Eros taken by the NEAR<BR>
probe are being released by NASA almost on<BR>
a daily basis. They can be found at the<BR>
following site:<BR>
<BR>
http://near.jhuapl.edu/<BR>
<BR>
For those of you who use computers during your<BR>
adventures, the videos of Eros are *stunning*.<BR>
<BR>
Click on the "Image of the Day Archive" link<BR>
and download the 2nd Eros Flyover movie.<BR>
Available in animated .gif, Quicktime, and MPEG<BR>
format, it is _the_ closest video of a real<BR>
asteroid in the history of the human species.<BR>
Taken from a distance of approx. 126 miles,<BR>
lots of details are readily visible. The MPG<BR>
video player which comes with Win95/98 allows<BR>
you to freeze-frame just be clicking on the<BR>
image.<BR>
<BR>
ObTrav: These shots are fantastic for adding<BR>
eye-catching detail to any adventure in which<BR>
an asteroid/planetoid plays a major part.<BR>
Great for use as the telemetry feed from a probe,<BR>
as part of a briefing for an assault/exploration,<BR>
etc.<BR>
<BR>
For you trivia buffs: What unmanned spacecraft<BR>
has recently performed an even closer flyby of<BR>
a planetary body/satellite?<BR>
<BR>
David<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 10:00:23<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Filk explosion! Rhylanor<BR>
<BR>
Rhylanor<BR>
<BR>
by Douglas Berry<BR>
<BR>
original music: "Allentown", by Billy Joel<BR>
<BR>
Well I'm living here on Rhylanor<BR>
Where my fortunes went I just don't know<BR>
All the nobles are living well<BR>
Making their deals<BR>
While I'm just a shell<BR>
I came here for a job with the fleet<BR>
Against the zho's that we had to defeat<BR>
Found myself working in null-g<BR>
Herding that steel<BR>
Welding the seams<BR>
And I'm living here on Rhylanor<BR>
And there's only so far I can go<BR>
So I won't be going home today<BR>
<BR>
Well I'm waiting here Rhylanor<BR>
For the fame and fortune I'll never know<BR>
All the promises the Admirals made<BR>
If we worked hard<BR>
If we behaved<BR>
But my work left me with nothing to show<BR>
With no money and nowhere to go<BR>
No they never taught me what was real<BR>
Plasma arc welds<BR>
Hyperdense steel<BR>
So I'm living here on Rhylanor<BR>
And I'm scraping by with little to show<BR>
And my air tax is due today<BR>
<BR>
The speeches stirred us all to our core<BR>
We had to fight the Fifth Frontier War<BR>
But with peace they shut the shipyards down<BR>
Suddenly there was no work to found<BR>
<BR>
Well, I'm living here on Rhylanor<BR>
I'll be heading home someday, I know<BR>
But I don't think I can leave today<BR>
And I'm living here on Rhylanor<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 10:00:50<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Filk explosion! Pirates on the Run<BR>
<BR>
Pirates on the Run<BR>
<BR>
Douglas Berry<BR>
<BR>
original: Band on the Run, Paul McCartney<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Working as a pirate.<BR>
Hiding from the Navy.<BR>
Never making profit.<BR>
LET ME OUT!  Of here, someone, HELP!, someone...<BR>
<BR>
If I ever get off this ship,<BR>
Goin' back to someplace safe,<BR>
No more pirate's life for me - <BR>
Sign aboard for some honest trade,<BR>
if I ever get off this ship,<BR>
(If we ever get off this ship...)<BR>
<BR>
Well the sensors glowed in a sickly red,<BR>
Showing missiles driving in,<BR>
And the Navy Ensign on the Q-ship said,<BR>
"There's no way you can win!"<BR>
<BR>
Band on the Run.<BR>
Band on the Run.<BR>
For misery, choose piracy,<BR>
And you can live your life, as the<BR>
Band on the Run.<BR>
Band on the Run.<BR>
<BR>
We jumped into an empty system,<BR>
Needing to refuel,<BR>
But the Navy vessels at the gas giant sent,<BR>
"We're coming after you!"<BR>
<BR>
Band on the Run.<BR>
Band on the Run.<BR>
Why can't you see, it wasn't me?<BR>
The others made me shoot, for the <BR>
Band on the Run.<BR>
Band on the Run.<BR>
<BR>
When at last our ship needed repair,<BR>
And was too battered to go on,<BR>
We found a yard in a neutral port,<BR>
And spent all we had won!!<BR>
<BR>
Band on the Run.<BR>
Band on the Run.<BR>
Band on the Run.<BR>
Band on the Run.<BR>
<BR>
We took a prize and in its hold<BR>
A wonder to behold<BR>
An Ancient toy, that hides our ship<BR>
Now we can be bold!<BR>
<BR>
FINAL CHORUS:<BR>
They're on the Run.<BR>
They're on the Run.<BR>
For the Navy crews, we bear bad news,<BR>
You'll see us nevermore,<BR>
They're on the Run.<BR>
They're on the Run.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2212<BR>
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Traveller-digest     Wednesday, March 29 2000     Volume 1999 : Number 2213<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Filk explosion! Dulinor went to Capital<BR>
Humour?<BR>
Re: Flag Stoppages<BR>
RE: Drop Tanks<BR>
Re: TNE Answers<BR>
Re: Drop Tanks<BR>
RE: Flag Stoppages<BR>
RE: Fencing in Traveller<BR>
re: Can I also bags Moughas <BR>
Re:  TNE Answers<BR>
"Department of Redundancy Depart" <BR>
Re: Stellar Data question-- can "habitable" worlds exist around M-V stars?<BR>
Re: TML Landgrab and GT:FI -  Leander Questions<BR>
Re: Stellar Data question-- can "habitable" worlds exist around M-V stars?<BR>
Re: Landgrab: Cannoniacal Data on Thanber<BR>
Re: Stellar Data question-- can "habitable" worlds existaround M-V  stars?<BR>
Re: GMSound Software<BR>
Re: Border crossings<BR>
Re: Gaming is a business! (was re: Classification of Systems)<BR>
RE: Stellar Data question-- can "habitable" worlds existaround M- V  stars?<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 10:03:13<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Filk explosion! Dulinor went to Capital<BR>
<BR>
Note: This one scans very strangely if you aren't familiar with the<BR>
original. The song changes tempo several times.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Dulinor Went Down to Capital<BR>
<BR>
Douglas Berry<BR>
<BR>
Original "Devil Went Down to Georgia" Charlie Daniels Band.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Dulinor went to Capital, he was lookin' for a throne to steal.<BR>
He was right on time to commit high crime, and the Guard was in on the deal.<BR>
He walked into the Octagon, Strephon greeted him as a friend,<BR>
Dulinor drew and with six shots the Imperium it did end.<BR>
<BR>
Nobles make your plans and gather allies fast<BR>
The Iridium Throne is empty, and you know that can't last<BR>
To the winner goes the title Emperor of Mankind<BR>
To the losers history won't be as kind<BR>
<BR>
Dulinor claimed that he'd just done the right thing<BR>
Promising glory with the reforms he would bring<BR>
But Strephon's nephew Lucan claimed the throne himself<BR>
Even though his claim was shaky, as was his mental health.<BR>
<BR>
Then Strephon showed up, alive and strong-willed<BR>
"It was my clone that bastard went and killed"<BR>
But by now several claimants had made their stake<BR>
The Rebellion had started, the Imperium did quake.<BR>
<BR>
<Fiddle Solo><BR>
<BR>
Margaret from her stronghold made her claim<BR>
As did Brrzk for Antares, and others to my shame<BR>
The Vilani brought their dead empire back to life<BR>
As 11,000 worlds fell into war and strife.<BR>
<BR>
All the worlds take to arms!<BR>
Fight for the remains of the Shattered Sun<BR>
You have to take up sides, dontch'all know?<BR>
Where it ends, nobody knows<BR>
<BR>
<Fiddle Solo><BR>
<BR>
After a decade the war ends in a black race<BR>
As blasted worlds float like cinders through cold space<BR>
Just as hope was beginning to rise up again<BR>
A cold metal voice speaks up:<BR>
"I think, therefore I am."<BR>
<BR>
All the worlds take to arms!<BR>
Fight for the remains of the Shattered Sun<BR>
You have to take up sides, dontch'all know?<BR>
Where it ends, nobody knows<BR>
<BR>
<Fiddle Solo><BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 10:19:46 -0800<BR>
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)<BR>
Subject: Humour?<BR>
<BR>
  FWIW, the Classic Traveller Collectors' Edition reprints are a <BR>
convenient way to store your references where you do your e-mail<BR>
        ...at work :)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 10:12:55<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Flag Stoppages<BR>
<BR>
At 11:54 AM 3/29/2000 -0500, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Heh, Victory Drive isn't so bad anymore. They actually closed down the<BR>
>Traffic Light Lounge, which was my favorite "Alternate Entertainment<BR>
>Establishment".<BR>
<BR>
WHAT!?  Heresy! Please tell me that the Aztec or the Cellar are still<BR>
around.. (The Cellar was under the Motel 6)<BR>
<BR>
> The Columbus city council has gone on a morality kick the<BR>
>last few years. They've even decided to enact an ordinance that would forbid<BR>
>establishments that feature nekkid women from serving booze. There is now<BR>
>officially nothing fun to do here.<BR>
<BR>
The fiends!!!  I don't suppose Phenix City is any better.  Of course, when<BR>
I was there, it wasn't nekkid women, they had to wear some form of covering<BR>
in, umm. strategic locations.<BR>
<BR>
Nothing fun?  Surely Flat Rock Park is still open.<BR>
<BR>
My favorite place on VD Drive was the tattoo parlor that had a sign outside<BR>
saying "We Tattooed Your Grandfather."  True too, the guy there had been<BR>
doing ink since he medicaled out of the Army in 1942.<BR>
<BR>
>ObTrav: What would bored off-duty Imperial servicepeople do on a world where<BR>
>the government closed down all the entertainment for "moral reasons"?<BR>
<BR>
They go to the speakeasies that enteprising souls will open. Ever been to<BR>
Fayetteville?  Hays St. is filled with places that make Victory look like a<BR>
Baptist Church.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 11:21:51 -0700<BR>
From: Jason Postma <JasonP@i-link.net><BR>
Subject: RE: Drop Tanks<BR>
<BR>
Narrow savloes are not allowed in tournament games because they are<BR>
potentially game-breaking.  They instituted they're "no new rules that allow<BR>
the game to be resolved on one die" after that rule was already in the book<BR>
(along with the HET rules).<BR>
<BR>
I can't completely ignore the Drop Tank idea - one day one of my players is<BR>
going to ask why they won't work, and I've got to have a decent answer.<BR>
<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca [mailto:shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca]<BR>
Sent: Tuesday, March 28, 2000 7:41 PM<BR>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Subject: RE: Drop Tanks<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>From: Jason Postma <JasonP@i-link.net><BR>
>Subject: RE: Drop Tanks<BR>
><BR>
>It's the same sort of idea that the designers of Star Fleet Battles always<BR>
>use - they do not accept rules changes that allow ships to do amazing<BR>
things<BR>
>with a die roll telling them if they blow up or not - their idea is that<BR>
>it's no fun to have a game decided entirely by the dice, and such things<BR>
<BR>
  Narrow salvoes. Next? :)<BR>
<BR>
>If I were to raise the misjump chance, there's no way that would stop the<BR>
>Players and other desperate people from still using them, and the<BR>
advantages<BR>
>are enough that small risks aren't going to deter anyone.  There has to be<BR>
>something wrong enough with the idea that no one will want to use it.<BR>
>Either using them gets seriously dangerous (as in MOST if not ALL of the<BR>
>jumps are misjumps and/or destroyed ships), or they just plain don't work.<BR>
<BR>
  As already stated, the main thing is to get them off of commercial<BR>
traffic - even 0.5% chance of destruction covers that. IMHO, the best<BR>
thing would be just to hide the entire idea away and ignore it...<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 18:33:56 +0200<BR>
From: Volker Greimann <volker@greimann.de><BR>
Subject: Re: TNE Answers<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
>2. The books will be in e-book form only.<BR>
So we need one of them unhandy e-books/rocketbooks/etc???<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>I need to know if it's worth pursuing. Is it?<BR>
Hmm, it sounds interesting... Is the unnamed Author called D*** N*****?<BR>
- ---<BR>
Volker A. Greimann<BR>
greimann@geocities.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 10:46:41 -0800<BR>
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Drop Tanks<BR>
<BR>
At 12:40 PM -0500 3/29/00, Terry Carlino wrote:<BR>
>IMTU I don't make them reusable because I don't especially want drop tanks<BR>
>to realign the entire economic basis of my game universe. Is this a good<BR>
>reason?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
I've come the conclusion that the best thing to do is either keep<BR>
them around and train yourself to ignore their problems, or just<BR>
"drop" them....<BR>
<BR>
>In short there is a whole structure of government, insurance, automobile<BR>
>manufacture, petroleum, construction, and who knows what else in existence<BR>
>to support the roads and almost no structure to support public<BR>
>transportation, even though in the long run it's total cost would be less.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
That isn't clear.  Public transportation doesn't have convenience<BR>
of auto and many forms of it can be fairly expensive.  However,<BR>
rail roads do suffer vs long distance trucking because of government<BR>
subsidies?  How would this apply to drop tanks?  You would need<BR>
to postulate that, for some reason, the Imperium decided to<BR>
heavily subsidize ships that couldn't use drop tanks.  (and even<BR>
then, it isn't clear why they shouldn't be standard for military<BR>
vessels and used for in certain commercial ventures).<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
>Maybe drop tanks would cut out whole sections of Jump main worlds that would<BR>
>be bypassed by J-6 ships with jump tanks.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Those mains are already bypassed by the main liners, X-boats, etc.<BR>
and the <J-6 liners that currently serve these systems will<BR>
also be more profitable using drop tanks.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>  Whole Megacorps might lose<BR>
>business because information is now able to travel faster than they can<BR>
>respond.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Megacorps are going to have the resources to set these up<BR>
faster, they are going to be the big winners.<BR>
<BR>
>  Maybe the Imperium and some Megacorps are already using drop tanks<BR>
>as part of a "secret" fast courier system and they don't want the other<BR>
>Megacorps and Interstellar governments to know how effective they are.<BR>
<BR>
I'm not sure how long you would keep that secret.  It wouldn't<BR>
be very long.  To many people would have to knw.<BR>
<BR>
______________________________<BR>
summers@alum.mit.edu<BR>
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 12:56:54 -0600<BR>
From: "Moody, Danny M." <DMoody@bridge.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Flag Stoppages<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: Douglas E. Berry [mailto:gridlore@pop.mindspring.com]<BR>
> They go to the speakeasies that enteprising souls will open. <BR>
> Ever been to<BR>
> Fayetteville?  Hays St. is filled with places that make <BR>
> Victory look like a<BR>
> Baptist Church.<BR>
<BR>
Oh, Deity!  Fayette-Nam!  I had almost recovered from that place.  Ouch.<BR>
<BR>
I have a friend there that just got done with Green Beret training.  He broke his ankle last year about a week before the end of the trial.  He went on for about three days after, but the made him stop.  They let him come back an try again.<BR>
<BR>
ObTrav:<BR>
	Just how difficult is training for the Imperial forces - especially ground forces?  What's the attrition rate for Imperial Marine training?  What about vehicle crew?  Do they get the same/similar training for the mud puppies?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
vargr1                                                   UPP-8D9B85<BR>
- ---------------------------- Omnia dicta fortiora, si dicta latina.<BR>
Meyers-Briggs personality type: ENTJ                vargr1@jcn1*com<BR>
"...the ENTJ is not one to be trifled with."      dmoody@bridge*com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 15:43:35 +0100<BR>
From: "Mark Preston" <mark@mpreston.demon.co.uk><BR>
Subject: RE: Fencing in Traveller<BR>
<BR>
If he hadn't died last year, I'd ring him - or even drop round - and<BR>
get him to abuse you for poor taste <grin>.<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Leonard<BR>
> Erickson<BR>
> Sent: 29 March 2000 03:33<BR>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> Subject: Re: Fencing in Traveller<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> In mail you write:<BR>
><BR>
> > True, they are in a different universe through most of the series<BR>
> > (have you not got to the end yet?)<BR>
><BR>
> I wasn't impressed enough to buy even the *second* book.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 11:05:44 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: re: Can I also bags Moughas <BR>
<BR>
>From: "Karen and Michael Hughes" <kmhughes@dynamite.com.au><BR>
>Subject: Can I also bags Moughas (2406 Regina/Spinward Marches)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>I mean - Spinward Marches, I wanna plunk my big fat pinkie on<BR>
Moughas as well.<BR>
<BR>
FYI, Moughas was written up in a large-format publication, but I<BR>
don't recall which one (Challenge, Travellers' Digest,<BR>
Megatraveller Journal, Traveller Chronicle).<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.<BR>
http://im.yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 19:38:50 GMT<BR>
From: "Boris Cibic" <kafka47@hotmail.com><BR>
Subject: Re:  TNE Answers<BR>
<BR>
I for one would be interested very much in the publication of TNE answers.  <BR>
I am not too much a fan of the Milieu but, it had potential to grow.  Plus, <BR>
it provided an excellent backdrop of the Great Interstellar Depression, a <BR>
campaign set in the Long Night.<BR>
  I Would However, object to in a e-format.  I would much rather see it in <BR>
printed form, however, simple or cheap it may look.<BR>
   Would you by any chance linking your endevour with Harold Hale's Children <BR>
of Earth campaign.  As I don't believe he has ever got a chance outside of <BR>
TTC to get it published.<BR>
<BR>
______________________________________________________<BR>
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 12:02:37 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: "Department of Redundancy Depart" <BR>
<BR>
> 	Wow, great crosspost, Dalton.  Thanks.  Lots of handy >info,<BR>
and very timely to the threads on the TML too.  That was <BR>
>very cool.  I also enjoyed the Firesign Theatre "Department of <BR>
>Redundancy Depart" reference.  <BR>
<BR>
The Imperial Department of Redundancy Department also appears in<BR>
a Judges' Guild product, but I don't recall which one.  It's in<BR>
a "rumors" section, as I recall.<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.<BR>
http://im.yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 12:04:47 -0800<BR>
From: "James W. Lindsay" <jlindsay@home.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Stellar Data question-- can "habitable" worlds exist around M-V stars?<BR>
<BR>
On Tue, 28 Mar 2000 16:30:51 PST, Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> In mail you write:<BR>
> <BR>
> > Now I know we had a lengthy discussion as to how high population, low tech<BR>
> > worlds could possibly exist in hostile environments like vacuum worlds, but<BR>
> > even vacuum worlds could exist within a habitable orbit to give life a<BR>
> > little help.  Anyone have any suggestions as to how, for example, 600,000<BR>
> > humans could survive using TL7 technology on a 1,600 km diameter rock with<BR>
> > negligible water or atmosphere (Zenopit/Jewell)-- *outside* the habitable<BR>
> > region of an M3-V star?  Either I have to fudge the data and say that this<BR>
> > tiny rock orbits v-e-r-y close to the star, or come up with something else.<BR>
> <BR>
> Take a good look at what eskimos do with TL *zero* technology. <BR>
<BR>
Not a bad example, except that they had plenty of fresh air, water, and<BR>
food (ie: animals to hunt) at their disposal.  And Earth is within Sol's<BR>
habitable zone.<BR>
<BR>
> TL-7 is what we had 20-30 years ago. <BR>
<BR>
I know.  Imagine 600,000 people living inside Skylab :)<BR>
<BR>
> Spinward Marches Campaign shows Zenopit as:<BR>
> <BR>
> 1010 D130546-7   nIn Po De  622Na M8 D<BR>
>      ||||||| | | |         |||||  |<BR>
>      ||||||| | | |         |||||  +--- M8 *dwarf* (even worse than your data!)<BR>
>      ||||||| | | |         ||||+------ non-aligned?<BR>
>      ||||||| | | |         |||+------- 2 gas giants<BR>
>      ||||||| | | |         ||+-------- 2 asteroid belts<BR>
>      ||||||| | | |         |+--------- pop modifier 6<BR>
>      ||||||| | | |         +---------- not-zoned<BR>
>      ||||||| | | +-------------------- Non-industrial, Poor, Desert<BR>
>      ||||||| | +---------------------- no bases<BR>
>      ||||||| +------------------------ TL 7<BR>
>      ||||||+-------------------------- All firearms except shotguns prohibited<BR>
>      |||||+--------------------------- Representative democracy<BR>
>      ||||+---------------------------- pop 600,000<BR>
>      |||+----------------------------- no surface water<BR>
>      ||+------------------------------ very thin atmosphere<BR>
>      |+------------------------------- 1600 km diameter<BR>
>      +-------------------------------- type D port<BR>
<BR>
True, the CT data lists the stellar type as M8-D.  The Regency Sourcebook,<BR>
however, lists the data (for 1117) as M3-V.  This helps out a lot.<BR>
<BR>
> So, it's basicly a colder version of Luna, but with a very thin<BR>
> atmosphere. Which makes it quite inhabitable, given 1970s technology. <BR>
<BR>
I agree.  Domes or underground caverns would be required (judging by the<BR>
law level, I'd bet on the latter)-- large enough to comfortably house<BR>
600,000+ people.  While we could conceivably build such a colony with TL7<BR>
tech, that old question again pops up: "Why?"  After all, our planet's<BR>
space-capable nations are probably averaging around TL8, and the closest<BR>
we've gotten to a colony like Zenopit is the planned World Space Station<BR>
(which won't hold anywhere near 600,000 people).  There would have to be an<BR>
immense driving force for so many people to attempt to build a colony a<BR>
week away from the closest habitable star system, large enough to house so<BR>
many people, with technology considered "out of date" by today's standards.<BR>
<BR>
But I am getting off topic again.  If Zenopit was tidally locked, might the<BR>
bright side be considered a "habitable" zone, or would the planet still be<BR>
too far from its M3-V star?<BR>
<BR>
> Assume either subsurface ice deposits being mined (heck, given the<BR>
> atmosphere, there might even be a permafrost layer!) or importation of<BR>
> hydrogen and other gasses from the nearest gas giant. <BR>
> <BR>
> Closed cycle air and water systems are just about mandatory. <BR>
<BR>
Certainly.<BR>
<BR>
> BTW, given the low gravity, if the planet has a "normal" day, building<BR>
> a "beanstalk" is well within their capability, since they don't need<BR>
> anything stronger than kevlar, and probably can get by with *steel*<BR>
> cable. <BR>
<BR>
Now this is a cool idea!  According to canon, beanstocks are *extremely*<BR>
rare in the Traveller Universe because of the technology differences<BR>
required to pull a project like that off (ie: by the time you have a TL<BR>
high enough to create the *materials* necessary, you'd almost certainly<BR>
have developed cheap anti-grav propulsion).  Reducing the gravity of the<BR>
world reduces the strength necessary for the components, which allows such<BR>
a structure to be built at lower tech levels.  Ex-cellent!<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
James W. Lindsay             Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada<BR>
Website: http://members.home.net/jlindsay          ICQ: #7521644<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
If you can't debug it, deplug it.<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 12:04:51 -0800<BR>
From: "James W. Lindsay" <jlindsay@home.com><BR>
Subject: Re: TML Landgrab and GT:FI -  Leander Questions<BR>
<BR>
On Tue, 28 Mar 2000 22:01:07 -0600, Black ICE wrote:<BR>
<BR>
[snip]<BR>
<BR>
> 4.  If my ideas above seem unworkable, does anyone here object to a<BR>
> change in stellar data for Leander?  That M5 V star is the biggest<BR>
> obstacle to making Leander's UWP work. <BR>
<BR>
I can't help you with your first three points, but you may be happy to find<BR>
that the Regency Sourcebook lists the stellar data for Leander as K5-V<BR>
(with an M1-D companion star).  It is MHO that GDW changed some of the<BR>
stellar data for the Marches-- and other sectors-- to reduce the number of<BR>
M-type stars (see my original post regarding "habitable" worlds and M-type<BR>
stars).<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
James W. Lindsay             Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada<BR>
Website: http://members.home.net/jlindsay          ICQ: #7521644<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
If you can't debug it, deplug it.<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 12:04:49 -0800<BR>
From: "James W. Lindsay" <jlindsay@home.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Stellar Data question-- can "habitable" worlds exist around M-V stars?<BR>
<BR>
On Tue, 28 Mar 2000 17:43:18 +0200, Ingo Heinscher wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> At 23:33 27.03.00 -0800, James W. Lindsay wrote:<BR>
> [snip]<BR>
> >Now I know we had a lengthy discussion as to how high population, low tech<BR>
> >worlds could possibly exist in hostile environments like vacuum worlds, but<BR>
> >even vacuum worlds could exist within a habitable orbit to give life a<BR>
> >little help.  Anyone have any suggestions as to how, for example, 600,000<BR>
> >humans could survive using TL7 technology on a 1,600 km diameter rock with<BR>
> >negligible water or atmosphere (Zenopit/Jewell)-- *outside* the habitable<BR>
> >region of an M3-V star?  Either I have to fudge the data and say that this<BR>
> >tiny rock orbits v-e-r-y close to the star, or come up with something else.<BR>
> ><BR>
> >Any thoughts?<BR>
> <BR>
> TL7? No problem. Underground colony, mining gas ices for atmosphere and<BR>
> using fission plants for power supply. Won't be a very healthy population,<BR>
> though.<BR>
<BR>
It might be able to build such an underground colony on Earth using TL7<BR>
technology, but the difficulty goes w-a-y up when you are attempting to do<BR>
so on a vacuum world a week away from the nearest habitable system.  Could<BR>
we have built such a colony on the moon 30 years ago?<BR>
<BR>
> Of course, one would have to find an explanation why they ever moved there...<BR>
<BR>
That's the tricky part.  I dislike falling back on the old "they were high<BR>
tech prior to the Long Night and the colony is barely surviving now" idea.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
James W. Lindsay             Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada<BR>
Website: http://members.home.net/jlindsay          ICQ: #7521644<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
If you can't debug it, deplug it.<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 12:04:50 -0800<BR>
From: "James W. Lindsay" <jlindsay@home.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Landgrab: Cannoniacal Data on Thanber<BR>
<BR>
On Tue, 28 Mar 2000 18:01:28 PST, Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> In mail you write:<BR>
> <BR>
> > I'm doing Thanber (0717/Querion) for the landgrab.  I have BTC and the T:NE<BR>
> > Regency Sourcebook, but I don't have the Traveller Adventure, Fifth Frontier<BR>
> > War, or the original SM book.  Anyone know if there are any refrences to<BR>
> > Thanber in any of those sources?<BR>
> <BR>
> SMC<BR>
> Thanber<BR>
> hex  UPP       notes  PBG   star1  star2<BR>
> ---- --------- ------ ---   -----  -----<BR>
> 0717 B243653-C nIn Po 210Cs M9 V   M1 D<BR>
<BR>
The only thing that I have to add is that the actual asteroid belt that<BR>
"is" Thanber may comprise of enough material to once have been an actual<BR>
planet.  I'm not sure if this is canon or not, since I am only referring to<BR>
notes I had made years ago.  I may have simply made this fact up... I just<BR>
don't know :(<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
James W. Lindsay             Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada<BR>
Website: http://members.home.net/jlindsay          ICQ: #7521644<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
If you can't debug it, deplug it.<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 12:04:52 -0800<BR>
From: "James W. Lindsay" <jlindsay@home.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Stellar Data question-- can "habitable" worlds existaround M-V  stars?<BR>
<BR>
On Tue, 28 Mar 2000 18:10:50 +0200, Holger Kadlez wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> Ingo Heinscher wrote:<BR>
> > <BR>
> > At 23:33 27.03.00 -0800, James W. Lindsay wrote:<BR>
> > [snip]<BR>
> > >Now I know we had a lengthy discussion as to how high population, low tech<BR>
> > >worlds could possibly exist in hostile environments like vacuum worlds, but<BR>
> > >even vacuum worlds could exist within a habitable orbit to give life a<BR>
> > >little help.  Anyone have any suggestions as to how, for example, 600,000<BR>
> > >humans could survive using TL7 technology on a 1,600 km diameter rock with<BR>
> > >negligible water or atmosphere (Zenopit/Jewell)-- *outside* the habitable<BR>
> > >region of an M3-V star?  Either I have to fudge the data and say that this<BR>
> > >tiny rock orbits v-e-r-y close to the star, or come up with something else.<BR>
> > ><BR>
> > >Any thoughts?<BR>
> <BR>
> I for myself (or: for MTU) feel often quite happy to deviate from <BR>
> canon in those cases, especially when a world with a not really <BR>
> large population is not that far of of a world with a higher TL is<BR>
> not so far of, and the area is settled for quite some time.<BR>
<BR>
There's nothing wrong with deviating from canon, but there is nothing wrong<BR>
with trying to work *with* canon to come up with a possible solution<BR>
either.  That's why I asked the question that is this thread's subject<BR>
header, instead of just fudging the data :)<BR>
<BR>
> > TL7? No problem. Underground colony, mining gas ices for atmosphere and<BR>
> > using fission plants for power supply. Won't be a very healthy population,<BR>
> > though.<BR>
> <BR>
> Import some fusion power plants, or use big solar power plants.<BR>
<BR>
See my other post regarding my opinions of such an undertaking at TL7, with<BR>
little obvious need to do so.  While it would be possible to set up such a<BR>
large and remote colony with only TL7 tech, it would be *hard*.  Zenopit<BR>
has very little to offer in return for this investment... on the surface<BR>
anyway.  Lanthanum mines, anyone?<BR>
<BR>
I also dislike importing technology just to make the numbers work.  This<BR>
seems to me to be too easy of a solution.  Granted, many low tech colonies<BR>
might resort to doing this, but the fun is figuring out how they could do<BR>
it without resorting to borrowed high tech.  I never would have heard<BR>
Leonard's thoughts on a TL7 beanstalk, otherwise.<BR>
<BR>
> > Of course, one would have to find an explanation why they ever moved there...<BR>
> <BR>
> They diddn't. But some of their enterprising ancestors did, some <BR>
> (potentially long) time ago, maybe during or, even better, before <BR>
> the long night. The following generations were just unable to uphold <BR>
> their TL, for whatever reasons. Hard Times or Survival margin might<BR>
> prove helpfull.<BR>
<BR>
Ooooh, I hate this excuse :)  If this were true for so many low tech, high<BR>
population, inhospitable worlds, it might suggest that nearly *every* star<BR>
system was colonized prior to the Long Night.  IOW, all those worlds with<BR>
zero populations and X-class starports circa 1110 were the Long Night<BR>
colonies that failed, while the rest of those world types still with<BR>
populations are only "failing".<BR>
<BR>
IOW, while it might be ok to use the Long Night collapse idea on a few<BR>
worlds, it kinda loses its appeal if you start using it as an excuse for<BR>
every populated TL2 vacuum world :)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
James W. Lindsay             Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada<BR>
Website: http://members.home.net/jlindsay          ICQ: #7521644<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
If you can't debug it, deplug it.<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 18:38:22 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Re: GMSound Software<BR>
<BR>
At 9:50 -0500 29/3/00, Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU> wrote:<BR>
> > It's like running an emulator or an interpreter. Less efficient than<BR>
> > native code. Of course, with this attitude I ought to be running a RISC<BR>
> > chip. :-)<BR>
> ><BR>
> > But try finding software...<BR>
><BR>
>Well there's is this really nifty OS that runs on RISC chips...this sort<BR>
>of fruit named company sells it, Strawberry, no, Banana, no APPLE! Yeah,<BR>
>That's it! ( And Linux PPC, and Darwin, and soon Mac OSX ) :-P<BR>
<BR>
Hmm. For PowerPC, MacOS initially emulated the 680x0 processors on <BR>
the PPC; as more code has been ported things have got faster. Isn't <BR>
OS8.5 onwards PowerPC only? And MacOSX has about three modes - one <BR>
which emulates the old MacOS, one which runs Carbon compliant API <BR>
programs and straight OSX.<BR>
><BR>
>for software, lessee, MacWarehouse, MacZone, MacMall, Mac Connection <BR>
>all do mail order,<BR>
>and CompUSA even sells a couple of titles...<BR>
<BR>
Why do people always assume there is no Mac Software?<BR>
<BR>
>Of course, if you want to get really macochistic, IBM sells this RISC<BR>
>using os called AIX...like Unix only IBM-ified for your confusion...<BR>
<BR>
;-)<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 18:39:56 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Border crossings<BR>
<BR>
At 9:50 -0500 29/3/00, "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com> wrote:<BR>
>You want real fun? Go to Panmujon, Korea. This is the place where the DMZ<BR>
>narrows to six inches and runs down the middle of a table. The American and<BR>
>North Korean guards spend all day trying to out do each other.<BR>
><BR>
>I understand that one of the current rages among troops is to make a big<BR>
>show of throwing away half-eaten burgers within line of sight of the NKs.<BR>
<BR>
Isn't that against the Imperial Rules of War?<BR>
<BR>
The Burger as a weapon of Mass Destruction...<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 18:10:48 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Gaming is a business! (was re: Classification of Systems)<BR>
<BR>
At 18:07 -0500 28/3/00,  "Jesse LaBranche" <Vanquer@email.msn.com> wrote:<BR>
>    Except- add in the fact that in many areas the buyers are comic or CCG<BR>
>enthusiasts rather than RPGers and it often compounds those problems<BR>
>because the buyer is not familiar with what's hot and what's not.<BR>
<BR>
The only thing I can think to add to that is that the gaming shops <BR>
that I have seen fail are the ones which never have a copy of the <BR>
rules in stock.<BR>
<BR>
As analogy, what would the point be of stocking Playstation Games <BR>
without the odd console? Especially if everyone did the same. Without <BR>
core rules you cannot grow the market for each game, because you <BR>
don't get GMs...<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 14:11:34 -0600<BR>
From: "Mulroy, Alan T" <Alan.T.Mulroy@snapon.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Stellar Data question-- can "habitable" worlds existaround M- V  stars?<BR>
<BR>
> > Of course, one would have to find an explanation why they ever moved<BR>
there...<BR>
> <BR>
> They diddn't. But some of their enterprising ancestors did, some <BR>
> (potentially long) time ago, maybe during or, even better, before <BR>
> the long night. The following generations were just unable to uphold <BR>
> their TL, for whatever reasons. Hard Times or Survival margin might<BR>
> prove helpfull.<BR>
<BR>
Ooooh, I hate this excuse :)  If this were true for so many low tech, high<BR>
population, inhospitable worlds, it might suggest that nearly *every* star<BR>
system was colonized prior to the Long Night.  IOW, all those worlds with<BR>
zero populations and X-class starports circa 1110 were the Long Night<BR>
colonies that failed, while the rest of those world types still with<BR>
populations are only "failing".<BR>
<BR>
IOW, while it might be ok to use the Long Night collapse idea on a few<BR>
worlds, it kinda loses its appeal if you start using it as an excuse for<BR>
every populated TL2 vacuum world :)<BR>
<BR>
How about a Penal colony?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2213<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2214</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
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Traveller-digest     Wednesday, March 29 2000     Volume 1999 : Number 2214<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Why Loren can't explain, why he can't explain<BR>
Re: Why Loren can't explain, why he can't explain<BR>
TNE Answers<BR>
Re: TML Landgrab and GT:FI -  Leander Questions<BR>
Re: TML Landgrab and GT:FI -  Leander Questions<BR>
Re: Gambling skill<BR>
re: Drop Tanks<BR>
RE: TML Landgrab and GT:FI -  Leander Questions<BR>
Re: Filk explosion! Dulinor went to Capital<BR>
Re: beanstalks and bednobs<BR>
RE: TL<BR>
re:  Contract Law 101<BR>
Worthless worlds<BR>
TML Landgrab: Collace<BR>
Re: Contract Law 101<BR>
filk - The Old Destroyer Squadron<BR>
RE: Grav Powered Floating Cities<BR>
LEOs, weapons, extrality lines<BR>
Re: Grav-powered floating cities II<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 12:22:19 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Why Loren can't explain, why he can't explain<BR>
<BR>
>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
<BR>
>Settlements for lawsuits, even (heck, *especially*) out of<BR>
court<BR>
>settlements *often* have a clause stating that one or both <BR>
>parties are forbbiden to discuss *anything* about the <BR>
>settlement. Sometimes, even including the fact that there *was*<BR>
<BR>
>a settlement.<BR>
<BR>
I prefer to believe that Loren knows something too close to the<BR>
truth and understands that disclosure may awaken the Elder Gods<BR>
too soon.<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.<BR>
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<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 12:44:49 -0800<BR>
From: "Luther Martin" <martin@ksarul.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Why Loren can't explain, why he can't explain<BR>
<BR>
Glenn Goffin wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> I prefer to believe that Loren knows something too close to the<BR>
> truth and understands that disclosure may awaken the Elder Gods<BR>
> too soon.<BR>
<BR>
I like to believe this, too. Much like some fans of the Tekumel universe<BR>
actually believe that Tekumel is real and that its creator just channels it<BR>
(I think that this involves bending spoons?), maybe the GDW team plays this<BR>
role for the Traveller universe.<BR>
<BR>
My favorite web site about such stuff is, of course, http://www.randi.org/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 15:48:25 -0500<BR>
From: Mark Urbin <urbin@bigfoot.com><BR>
Subject: TNE Answers<BR>
<BR>
Hmmm...published in e-format...<BR>
<BR>
One of the hats I wear is ring master of the Palm EText webring.  Any <BR>
thought to providing this in Aportis Doc format?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 12:58:48 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: AuricTech Shipyards <aurictech@esweeet.com><BR>
Subject: Re: TML Landgrab and GT:FI -  Leander Questions<BR>
<BR>
>Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 12:04:51 -0800<BR>
>From: "James W. Lindsay" <jlindsay@home.com><BR>
>Subject: Re: TML Landgrab and GT:FI -  Leander Questions<BR>
><BR>
>On Tue, 28 Mar 2000 22:01:07 -0600, Black ICE wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>[snip]<BR>
><BR>
>> 4.  If my ideas above seem unworkable, does anyone here object to a<BR>
>> change in stellar data for Leander?  That M5 V star is the biggest<BR>
>> obstacle to making Leander's UWP work. <BR>
><BR>
>I can't help you with your first three points, but you may be happy to find<BR>
>that the Regency Sourcebook lists the stellar data for Leander as K5-V<BR>
>(with an M1-D companion star).  It is MHO that GDW changed some of the<BR>
>stellar data for the Marches-- and other sectors-- to reduce the number of<BR>
>M-type stars (see my original post regarding "habitable" worlds and M-type<BR>
>stars).<BR>
<BR>
_Bless_ you, kind sir!<BR>
<BR>
Now I can make this place work, without having to skate on the thin ice of modern life....  ;-)<BR>
<BR>
(I may also post the M5 V version I extracted from my fourth point of contact, as an alternative.)<BR>
<BR>
==<BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/colverber/travler.html<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
_____________________________________________________________<BR>
Check out our community at...<BR>
http://esweeet.community.everyone.net<BR>
<BR>
and access the world's best search engines instantly at...<BR>
http://search.esweeet.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 13:04:33 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: AuricTech Shipyards <aurictech@esweeet.com><BR>
Subject: Re: TML Landgrab and GT:FI -  Leander Questions<BR>
<BR>
>Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 12:04:51 -0800<BR>
>From: "James W. Lindsay" <jlindsay@home.com><BR>
>Subject: Re: TML Landgrab and GT:FI -  Leander Questions<BR>
><BR>
>On Tue, 28 Mar 2000 22:01:07 -0600, Black ICE wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>[snip]<BR>
><BR>
>> 4.  If my ideas above seem unworkable, does anyone here object to a<BR>
>> change in stellar data for Leander?  That M5 V star is the biggest<BR>
>> obstacle to making Leander's UWP work. <BR>
><BR>
>I can't help you with your first three points, but you may be happy to find<BR>
>that the Regency Sourcebook lists the stellar data for Leander as K5-V<BR>
>(with an M1-D companion star).  It is MHO that GDW changed some of the<BR>
>stellar data for the Marches-- and other sectors-- to reduce the number of<BR>
>M-type stars (see my original post regarding "habitable" worlds and M-type<BR>
>stars).<BR>
<BR>
_Bless_ you, kind sir!<BR>
<BR>
Now I can make this place work, without having to skate on the thin ice of modern life....  ;-)<BR>
<BR>
(I may also post the M5 V version I extracted from my fourth point of contact, as an alternative.)<BR>
<BR>
==<BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/colverber/travler.html<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
_____________________________________________________________<BR>
_________________________________________<BR>
eSweeet Mail - http://www.esweeet.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 13:04:24 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Gambling skill<BR>
<BR>
>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
<BR>
>In essence, the only thing worse than being the "mark" in a <BR>
>rigged game is being the card shark in a rigged game that the <BR>
>*mark* *knew* was going to be rigged. <BR>
>Evey crooked gambler's worst nightmare is discovering that his <BR>
>"mark" is a *better* crooked gambler...<BR>
<BR>
Ian Fleming's Moonraker (the book, not the movie) has an<BR>
excellent beginning sequence, in which M asks Bond to help him<BR>
stop Sir Hugo Drax's annoying cheating at bridge at M's club. <BR>
Bond figures out the cheat (Drax was just using a shiner, a<BR>
means of reflecting the cards as he dealt them; it only helped<BR>
him on the hands he dealt, but that was 1/4 of the time, so he<BR>
had that much of an advantage), and, subsequently, prepares a<BR>
deck which he substitutes by sleight of hand when it's his turn<BR>
to deal and he's suckered Drax into a really huge bet.  <BR>
<BR>
That was actually the best part of the book, and I had to learn<BR>
the rules of bridge to understand it properly, which served me<BR>
well in my college years when we used to play bridge all night. <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Ob Traveller:  Well, the Baron to whom you report really doesn't<BR>
understand how to cheat at Solomani rummy, but he's sure it's<BR>
happening, and do you think you could come around to his club<BR>
one evening and consult?  Strictly off the clock, but the<BR>
personal favor would mean a great deal to him...<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.<BR>
http://im.yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 15:59:05 -0500<BR>
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU><BR>
Subject: re: Drop Tanks<BR>
<BR>
Terry Carlino wrote:<BR>
>But why aren't they designed for reuse?  If you work out the<BR>
>numbers, that's were they have their impact and its hard<BR>
>reationalize that they couldn't be made reusuable.<BR>
<BR>
IMTU, you can make them reusable. The resusable ones are more<BR>
expensive, to the point of being comparable to starship hull. As a plus,<BR>
the reusable ones can be used for long-term fuel storage - one-use drop <BR>
tanks are designed to be filled within hours (a day or so at most) of <BR>
jump.<BR>
<BR>
Dropped tanks suffer a sufficient loss rate from various sources that<BR>
one-use expendables make more economic sense. In the few places<BR>
they are used, the "one use" tanks are still retrieved when possible and <BR>
either extensively refurbished, put to other use, or sold as scrap.<BR>
<BR>
I've been using the increased misjump chance with drop tanks, but<BR>
they really haven't become a big deal (yet) IMTU.<BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 14:08:57 -0700<BR>
From: Jason Postma <JasonP@i-link.net><BR>
Subject: RE: TML Landgrab and GT:FI -  Leander Questions<BR>
<BR>
Thanber's primary was changed in the Regency sourcebook too - from M9 V to<BR>
M0 V.  Quite a bit more light to work with there.  Everyone involved in the<BR>
Land Grab should probably check the Regency sourcebook for changes made to<BR>
spectral types before fiddling with them themselves.  That way we can stay<BR>
closer to printed sources.<BR>
<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
From: AuricTech Shipyards [mailto:aurictech@esweeet.com]<BR>
Sent: Wednesday, March 29, 2000 1:59 PM<BR>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Subject: Re: TML Landgrab and GT:FI - Leander Questions<BR>
<BR>
>Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 12:04:51 -0800<BR>
>From: "James W. Lindsay" <jlindsay@home.com><BR>
>Subject: Re: TML Landgrab and GT:FI -  Leander Questions<BR>
><BR>
>On Tue, 28 Mar 2000 22:01:07 -0600, Black ICE wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>[snip]<BR>
><BR>
>> 4.  If my ideas above seem unworkable, does anyone here object to a<BR>
>> change in stellar data for Leander?  That M5 V star is the biggest<BR>
>> obstacle to making Leander's UWP work. <BR>
><BR>
>I can't help you with your first three points, but you may be happy to find<BR>
>that the Regency Sourcebook lists the stellar data for Leander as K5-V<BR>
>(with an M1-D companion star).  It is MHO that GDW changed some of the<BR>
>stellar data for the Marches-- and other sectors-- to reduce the number of<BR>
>M-type stars (see my original post regarding "habitable" worlds and M-type<BR>
>stars).<BR>
<BR>
_Bless_ you, kind sir!<BR>
<BR>
Now I can make this place work, without having to skate on the thin ice of<BR>
modern life....  ;-)<BR>
<BR>
(I may also post the M5 V version I extracted from my fourth point of<BR>
contact, as an alternative.)<BR>
<BR>
==<BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/colverber/travler.html<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
_____________________________________________________________<BR>
Check out our community at...<BR>
http://esweeet.community.everyone.net<BR>
<BR>
and access the world's best search engines instantly at...<BR>
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------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 15:12:18 -0600<BR>
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Filk explosion! Dulinor went to Capital<BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry posted:<BR>
><BR>
>Note: This one scans very strangely if you aren't familiar with the<BR>
>original. The song changes tempo several times.<BR>
<BR>
Geez, Doug, how *do* you keep doing this?!?<BR>
<BR>
Awesome!<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Uh..you are putting all TML filks (including yours) on<BR>
the Silly Era site, right?<BR>
<BR>
David<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 22:18:43 +1000<BR>
From: "Katharine Whitchurch" <katts@globalfreeway.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re: beanstalks and bednobs<BR>
<BR>
> From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
> Subject: Re: Stellar Data question-- can "habitable" worlds exist around<BR>
M -V stars?<BR>
> > However, since they can buy anti-grav from nearby worlds, would they<BR>
> > build a beanstalk? Even after the shipping, a fleet of gravitic<BR>
> > transports are sure to be a lot cheaper than a beanstalk would be.<BR>
><BR>
> With TL7 tech the energy requirements for grav tech could be fairly<BR>
> steep, whereas beanstalks don't use much power to move stuff up and<BR>
> down. Not to mention the loss of cash out-system for maintenence techs,<BR>
> etc.<BR>
<BR>
Nope. Bzzzt. Wrong.<BR>
<BR>
The beanstalk is exceedingly capital intensive. Grav vehicles arent. Thus,<BR>
even if you have to import the spares, the maintainence cost of the grav<BR>
trucks is still going to be less - even in soft currency terms.<BR>
<BR>
It's just one of those things about the Trav universe - gravity wells are<BR>
exteremely inexpensive to get out of, once you can trade with a TL9 world.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
> Subject: Re: Stellar Data question...<BR>
> > > people staying in space aboard a TL 6-7 orbital platform ("Mir") for<BR>
> > > periods of over a year. I see no problem supporting that many people<BR>
for<BR>
> > > an extended period, especially with extra-system support. The general<BR>
> > > tech level may be TL 7, but given half-a-chance I would bet the<BR>
> > > life-support systems would be as advanced as the system could afford<BR>
(TL<BR>
> > > 10-11 at least).<BR>
> ><BR>
> > I beg to differ. Life support is the *last* thing that you want to be<BR>
> > dependent of offworld support for.<BR>
><BR>
> And for examples just read the TAS articles from the "Hard Times" era<BR>
> (1125+).<BR>
<BR>
I wouldnt use in the middle of a civil war, with massive battlefleets<BR>
blowing the crap out of everything and disrupting trade as a result as my<BR>
standard example.<BR>
<BR>
You might as well use the UK 1939-1944 to prove why you shouldnt rely on<BR>
international trade to maintain your standard of living.<BR>
<BR>
Aurtarky works a lot worse than trade.<BR>
<BR>
Ian Whitchurch<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 16:20:39 -0500<BR>
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca><BR>
Subject: RE: TL<BR>
<BR>
James Lindsay writes:<BR>
<snipped><BR>
>>TL7? No problem. Underground colony, mining gas ices for atmosphere and<BR>
>>using fission plants for power supply. Won't be a very healthy population,<BR>
>>though.<BR>
>>Import some fusion power plants, or use big solar power plants.<BR>
>See my other post regarding my opinions of such an undertaking at TL7, with<BR>
>little obvious need to do so.  While it would be possible to set up such a<BR>
>large and remote colony with only TL7 tech, it would be *hard*.  Zenopit<BR>
>has very little to offer in return for this investment... on the surface<BR>
>anyway.  Lanthanum mines, anyone?<BR>
<BR>
	Is FTL travel possible at your TL 7?  Establishing a colony from a<BR>
	STL ship that sets off from a nearby world (that presumably is at<BR>
	TL 7, perhaps the Ancients put them there) would be very difficult<BR>
	indeed.  It would also be hard to come up with a reason that they<BR>
	they would try.  Of course, if they tried they would then be stuck<BR>
	with trying to make the colony work.<BR>
<BR>
>I also dislike importing technology just to make the numbers work.  This<BR>
>seems to me to be too easy of a solution.  Granted, many low tech colonies<BR>
>might resort to doing this, but the fun is figuring out how they could do<BR>
>it without resorting to borrowed high tech.  I never would have heard<BR>
>Leonard's thoughts on a TL7 beanstalk, otherwise.<BR>
<snipped><BR>
<BR>
	What's harder to explain than the presence of low-tech worlds on<BR>
	vacuum planets is why there are low-tech planets at all.  I expect<BR>
	that any planet with nearby higher TL worlds would import some<BR>
	higher-tech stuff.  At the very least, it takes a minimum TL to<BR>
	get to the planet, so any TL 2 society on a vacuum world has had<BR>
	at the very least the assistance of a higher-tech group.  This<BR>
	still leaves lots of possibilities:<BR>
<BR>
	1) TL Decline.  The world was colonized by a higher-tech society,<BR>
	but TL has declined due to economic problems (cheaper low-tech<BR>
	alternatives are used where possible), isolation (the colony is<BR>
	too small to manufacture/maintain the TL), and/or politics (there<BR>
	is a decision to lower TL for some other reason, perhaps religeous).<BR>
	Note that higher-tech items may remain even once the TL has declined.<BR>
<BR>
	2) Low TL Transplantees.  The world was prepared by a higher-tech group<BR>
	(the Ancients, a Megacorp, social scientists, refugee commission, etc.)<BR>
	who then transplanted the low-tech colonists.  The colonists may even<BR>
	have paid for passage/preparation.  Again, some high-tech is not out of<BR>
	place.<BR>
<BR>
	3) Low TL Colonists.  The world has been colonized by a society with<BR>
	just barely enough TL to get there and survive.  This is very difficult<BR>
	if they have to come from another star system, but perhaps there used<BR>
	to be an inhabitable world in the same system (they had to leave before<BR>
	it was destroyed/rendered uninhabitable).  Such a colony would tend to<BR>
	be permanently on the brink of disaster, and more than willing to import<BR>
	useful higher-tech stuff if they can afford it.  Still, it is possible<BR>
	that they have not.<BR>
<BR>
	4) Vacuum-tolerant Aliens.  The TL 2 society has no problem living here,<BR>
	it's a garden world for them.<BR>
<BR>
Peez<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 13:20:03 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: re:  Contract Law 101<BR>
<BR>
>From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
<BR>
>Bolie Williams IV wrote:<BR>
>> A contract exists only when there has been an exchange.  If<BR>
>>you just promise to do something gratis, it's not a contract. <BR>
<BR>
>>At least not legally.<BR>
><BR>
>Be careful.  Promises to do something for free CAN be legally<BR>
>enforceable, i.e., as valid as any other sort of contract.<BR>
>If contract law were that simple, law schools would go away.<BR>
>Maybe thats a good thing.<BR>
>[I can hear Glenn writing his response right now  ;-)   ]<BR>
<BR>
Hm what?  In the first year of law school, we were discussing<BR>
some case about a contract written without aid of counsel, and<BR>
the professor commented that it's always advisable for lay<BR>
persons to write their own contracts, as it generally ensures<BR>
that there will be work for lawyers later.  <BR>
<BR>
Doing something for free ... the other person relies on it ...<BR>
estoppel ... something ... detriment ... I don't remember -- is<BR>
this the rule in Shelly's case?<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
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------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 14:28:54 -0700<BR>
From: Jason Postma <JasonP@i-link.net><BR>
Subject: Worthless worlds<BR>
<BR>
Zenopit does have one thing to offer - isolation.  If the world is so<BR>
hostile that no one wants to live there, then no one will be trying to<BR>
muscle in on your territory, and if you don't have any dazzling high tech<BR>
gadgets, they can't attract those who take such things by force.  Zenopit<BR>
will be left alone unless it's in a useful strategic position for people who<BR>
want to go somewhere else.<BR>
<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
From: Ian Ferguson [mailto:ian@vax2.concordia.ca]<BR>
Sent: Wednesday, March 29, 2000 2:21 PM<BR>
To: traveller@mpgn.com<BR>
Subject: RE: TL<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
James Lindsay writes:<BR>
<snipped><BR>
>>TL7? No problem. Underground colony, mining gas ices for atmosphere and<BR>
>>using fission plants for power supply. Won't be a very healthy population,<BR>
>>though.<BR>
>>Import some fusion power plants, or use big solar power plants.<BR>
>See my other post regarding my opinions of such an undertaking at TL7, with<BR>
>little obvious need to do so.  While it would be possible to set up such a<BR>
>large and remote colony with only TL7 tech, it would be *hard*.  Zenopit<BR>
>has very little to offer in return for this investment... on the surface<BR>
>anyway.  Lanthanum mines, anyone?<BR>
<BR>
	Is FTL travel possible at your TL 7?  Establishing a colony from a<BR>
	STL ship that sets off from a nearby world (that presumably is at<BR>
	TL 7, perhaps the Ancients put them there) would be very difficult<BR>
	indeed.  It would also be hard to come up with a reason that they<BR>
	they would try.  Of course, if they tried they would then be stuck<BR>
	with trying to make the colony work.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 13:34:33 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: TML Landgrab: Collace<BR>
<BR>
>From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU><BR>
<BR>
I think Collace is discussed at some length in the Tarsus<BR>
supplement (a boxed game thing like Beltstrike).<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
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------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 16:50:14 -0500<BR>
From: Jeff Zeitlin <jzeitlin@cyburban.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Contract Law 101<BR>
<BR>
On Mon, 27 Mar 2000 18:59:30 -0500 (EST), Bruce Johnson<BR>
<johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu> wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>SD Mooney wrote:<BR>
 <BR>
>>>Not that this is a problem, as Andy is one Froopy Dude!<BR>
 <BR>
>> Err, can you translate that from the American to English?<BR>
 <BR>
>> Dom ;-)<BR>
<BR>
>Actually, (if my babelfish isn't lying to me again) that is a typo and<BR>
>should read 'Andy is one hoopy dude' 'Hoopy' as in 'Great, With it, all<BR>
>around cool guy to have around who always has his towel, as in "Dig that<BR>
>Zaphod Beeblebrox, now THAT is one hoopy dude!"'<BR>
<BR>
No, that's "frood", not "dude".  Go read it again.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
Jeff Zeitlin<BR>
jzeitlin@cyburban.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 16:42:45 -0500<BR>
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU><BR>
Subject: filk - The Old Destroyer Squadron<BR>
<BR>
The Old Destroyer Squadron<BR>
<BR>
Some things change, and some things stay the same. The song below,<BR>
supposedly derived from an old Terran wet-navy drinking song, has been<BR>
passed down for centuries. A verse describing a particularly annoying<BR>
Shugili was apparently once added to a version of the song, but is now<BR>
lost. <BR>
<BR>
The version presented below was recorded by a reporter in the crew's<BR>
mess of a Chrysanthemum-class Destroyer Escort on the Sword<BR>
Worlds Front during the Fifth Frontier War.<BR>
<BR>
(To the tune of "The Armored Cruiser Squadron", from the US Naval<BR>
Academy songbook, and with apologies to the author thereof.)<BR>
<BR>
<Quickly, with a pounding emphasis on the last few words in most lines><BR>
Oh...The...Admiral walks the flag bridge deck<BR>
And he sees our ship and he says, "By heck!"<BR>
"Here comes that low-tech, misjumped wreck,<BR>
From the Old Destroyer Squadron!"<BR>
<BR>
<Chorus><BR>
With a pipe and a drum we come, we come<BR>
With a pipe and a drum we come, we come<BR>
With a pipe and a drum we come, we come<BR>
In the Old Destroyer Squadron!<BR>
<BR>
Our Navigator's full of tar,<BR>
He shoots a high port for a star,<BR>
And he wonders where the hell we are,<BR>
In the Old Destroyer Squadron!<BR>
<BR>
<Chorus><BR>
<BR>
Our Gunner has a lot of pluck,<BR>
He points his guns and he trusts to luck,<BR>
But you know damn well he'll pass the buck,<BR>
In the Old Destroyer Squadron!*<BR>
<BR>
<Chorus><BR>
<BR>
Our Engineer's a common joke,<BR>
At half our max along we poke,<BR>
And we misjump 'till our drives are broke,<BR>
In the Old Destroyer Squadron!<BR>
<BR>
<Chorus><BR>
<BR>
Our Crew Chief is a kindly soul,<BR>
Bakes plastic in the bakery rolls,<BR>
'Till the crew's mess is a stinking hole,<BR>
In the Old Destroyer Squadron!<BR>
<BR>
<Chorus><BR>
<BR>
Our Surgeon's getting on in years,<BR>
His scalpels all brave crew do fear,<BR>
Especially when he's tanked with beer,<BR>
In the Old Destroyer Squadron!<BR>
<BR>
<Chorus><BR>
<BR>
Our X O is a wondrous gent,<BR>
He can't tell what his orders meant,<BR>
Got no clue where the squadron went,<BR>
In the Old Destroyer Squadron!<BR>
<BR>
<Chorus><BR>
<BR>
<Slowly and reverently><BR>
And when our ship has heard it's knell,<BR>
And takes up orbit at the gates of hell,<BR>
Our Captain he'll say, "Very well.",<BR>
In the Old Destroyer Squadron!<BR>
<BR>
<Brightly><BR>
<Chorus><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
*The Gunner verse is verbatim from the original, and several other<BR>
verses are similar. The Chorus is from the original. I left them in<BR>
because I saw the song as a traditional good-natured griping song,<BR>
with the verses evolving little by little as the environment changed.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 14:24:53 -0800<BR>
From: "Luther Martin" <martin@ksarul.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Grav Powered Floating Cities<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> So CG should work the same way. It *will* take energy to raise<BR>
> something in a gravity well, and you'll *get back* energy when you<BR>
> lower stuff. But the only energy required to *hover* will be due to<BR>
> losses in the equipment.<BR>
><BR>
> I figure that the energy required to set up a CG field may involve a<BR>
> "pressure/volume" relationship (if you check the units, pressure<BR>
> divided by volume has units of mass*length^2/Time^2, which is the same<BR>
> as energy). Force per area is pressure, so maybe the energy for a CG<BR>
> field depends on the volume of the field, the upward force exerted, and<BR>
> the area of the max horizontal cross-section of the field.<BR>
><BR>
> Silly, but good enough for "hand wave" physics. :-)<BR>
<BR>
This does make a big assumption about the nature of grav technology. I<BR>
believe that in this discussion is the implicit assumtion of the existence<BR>
of a "graviton" which mediates the gravitational force, so that it has the<BR>
same look and feel of EM, in which the force is mediated by photons. If<BR>
these guys exist, we can then think about the effects of graviton beams and<BR>
other such devices. Since this stuff is not mentioned in Traveller, maybe<BR>
its TL16+.<BR>
<BR>
Using gravitons, we can probably think of some interesting effects. What<BR>
acts like an antenna for gravitions? Mass? So maybe we can create a graviton<BR>
wave of the resonant frequency of an object and do interesting things to it.<BR>
Increase its weight? Decrease its weight? Cause some sort of oscillations<BR>
which cause it damage?<BR>
<BR>
I suppose that I have always assumed that grav technology is something<BR>
different entirely.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 14:33:58 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: LEOs, weapons, extrality lines<BR>
<BR>
>From: Sethkimmel@aol.com<BR>
>Subject: Re: Contract Law 101<BR>
<BR>
>Ob Trav: What do LEO's (both Imperial and local) do with their <BR>
>sidearms when they cross the extratrality line?<BR>
<BR>
Imperial LEO crossing from starport to world:<BR>
on duty, keeps weapon<BR>
off duty, depends on membership treaty with world, but<BR>
ordinarily keeps weapon<BR>
<BR>
Imperial LEO crossing from world to starport:<BR>
keep weapon<BR>
<BR>
Local LEO crossing from own world to starport:<BR>
depends on membership treaty and starport authority's law level,<BR>
but in general<BR>
NB: there is no "hot pursuit" from member state across the<BR>
extrality line (in my Traveller universe, anyway).  There is<BR>
extradition from starport to member state, but that's an<BR>
Imperial legal procedure.<BR>
<BR>
Local LEO crossing from starport to world not his/her own:<BR>
depends on treaty between the states, but usually keeps weapon,<BR>
especially if on duty<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
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------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 15:35:53 -0700<BR>
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Grav-powered floating cities II<BR>
<BR>
Ingo Heinscher wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> Okay, I 've received a lot of answers. Thank you all. I would like to<BR>
> summarize those points I have a different POV on.<BR>
> <BR>
> Of course, there must be some economical reason for building such a city or<BR>
> palace. Be it luxury or necessity, someone must believe it's worth the money.<BR>
> <BR>
> I accept luxury and prestige as reasons to build a grav palace. (On the<BR>
> Imperial Place, see below.) But then there were some points I still don't<BR>
> understand:<BR>
> <BR>
> -Seismic activity and heavy volcanism on an _entire_ planet? AFAIK this<BR>
> would mean that the planet is either extremely young  or close to death due<BR>
> to gravitatinal powers of neighbouring planets. (Gas giants, for example).<BR>
> Who would invest on a planet that is going to be shattered within a few<BR>
> decades? A young planet might be an explanation, tough I still believe it<BR>
> is cheaper then to build an orbital facilityand use shuttlecraft for the<BR>
> work on the planet's surface.<BR>
<BR>
No one said seismic activity on the entire planet would be necessary.<BR>
Look at the 'Ring of Fire' on terra. I think something like five of the<BR>
largest cities on the planet are located in thiss _very_ seismically<BR>
active area. Several these same cities have been destroyed more than<BR>
once due to earthquake, yet somehow people built (and rebuilt, and<BR>
rebuilt) Tokyo, Yokohama, Los Angeles, Seattle, Portland, San Francisco,<BR>
Mexico City, Quito, Santiago and more, along the faults that ring this<BR>
area. Not to mention the millions of people that live in other, smaller<BR>
urban areas along the ring.<BR>
<BR>
You've fallen into the 'if it's Tuesday it must be another planet'<BR>
syndrome. Every planet is going to have a range of habitat. On Earth,<BR>
unfortunaely, some of the most desireable is in the path of various<BR>
natural disasters. Something like 500 million people live directly in<BR>
the path of powerful cyclones that hit the Indian subcontinent annually. <BR>
<BR>
> -Ocean Worlds. Even if there is no continental shelf, it might still be<BR>
> cheaper to build an oil-platform-like structure than gravity-based floating<BR>
> structures. On the ability to avoid vast storms: The need for energy would<BR>
> be even larger for structures that can move at significant speeds (i.e.<BR>
> speeds to avoid a forecast storm). Also, I would assume that a civilization<BR>
> with both the knowledge and the capital to build floating cities should be<BR>
> able to establish efficient whether control at a much lower price.<BR>
<BR>
Why? Weather control, as mentioned before, is a HARD problem,<BR>
conceivably consuming far more resources than floating a city.<BR>
  <BR>
> -The security issue: It is true that you can plan in some redundancy on the<BR>
> part of the grav modules. AFAIK it is also true that similar things are<BR>
> done in modern aircraft design. But AFAIK aircraft still crash from time to<BR>
> time. This might be acceptable for 200-400 passengers to happen. But an<BR>
> entire _city_? If you had an insurance company, what would you charge for<BR>
> in such a case?<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
<sigh> Ask this question when we've been flying aircraft for a couple of<BR>
millenia instead of just shy a century, and commercial air travel for<BR>
far less than that.<BR>
<BR>
Stop and think a moment. <BR>
<BR>
Imperial engineers have been using antigrav technology since before the<BR>
Roman arch was the pinnacle of engineering achievement.<BR>
<BR>
A Roman engineer might well ask the same questions you're asking about<BR>
what, to us, is a perfectly viable building technique, such as a<BR>
suspension bridge or a curtainwall skyscraper. Better yet, put him in a<BR>
well-built skyscraper during an earthquake...<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Bruce Johnson<BR>
University of Arizona<BR>
College of Pharmacy<BR>
Information Technology Group<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2214<BR>
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Traveller-digest     Wednesday, March 29 2000     Volume 1999 : Number 2215<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
First cut of a grav building<BR>
Re: Drop takns<BR>
Re: Grav Powered Floating Cities<BR>
Roach Coach, LIC<BR>
Re: Notes on building Heya<BR>
Re: Stellar Data question-- can "habitable" worlds exist around M-V stars?<BR>
Re: GMSound Software<BR>
Re: Stellar Data question-- can "habitable" worlds exist around M-V stars?<BR>
Re: Crossing Worlds<BR>
Another Filk!<BR>
Canon data on Five Sisters/876-574?<BR>
minimum size for RTG/NPU<BR>
RE: Landgrab: Cannoniacal Data on Thanber<BR>
RE: Crossing Worlds<BR>
RE: Grav Powered Floating Cities<BR>
regimental colours<BR>
Re: Stellar Data question...<BR>
size of 40mm grenade warhead<BR>
Re: First cut of a grav building<BR>
RE: Grav Powered Floating Cities<BR>
Re: Drop tanks<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 08:30:56 +1000<BR>
From: "Katharine Whitchurch" <katts@globalfreeway.com.au><BR>
Subject: First cut of a grav building<BR>
<BR>
This is the first cut of the Famile Spofulam Grav Tower. It is built at TL9,<BR>
for the Export Market.<BR>
<BR>
1000 dton long cylinder (60m high, about 18m a side)<BR>
<BR>
3 G Structure (Composite Laminate) 3m^3,10.8t,KCr0.08<BR>
<BR>
1cm Aluminium skin 37.3 m3, 118.5t, KCr 92<BR>
<BR>
10 MW Fission reactor 10m3, 20t, MCr 1<BR>
<BR>
1m3 radioactives 1m3, 19t, KCr 75<BR>
<BR>
25 MW TL9 1 hour batteries 25m3, 50t, KCr 50<BR>
<BR>
2 CM 0.8/CP 1.25 computers 0.33m3, 0.06t, KCr 17<BR>
<BR>
2 TL8 Avionics/Navigation Aids KCr 50<BR>
<BR>
200 Large Staterooms 11200 m3, 800t, MCr 10 (?? should be lower, as these<BR>
dont have to be built to space standards - no iris valves etc. With 3m<BR>
ceilings, this puts about 15 layers of rooms in the building. Thus with 4<BR>
rooms on each side, everybody gets a view)<BR>
<BR>
3000 m3, 400t spare mass for kitchens, shops, restaurants, grav cars, people<BR>
and furniture.<BR>
<BR>
The building can float indefinitely at 50% power output, and the battery<BR>
pack will maintain this for one hour if the fission plant fails. Movement<BR>
requires higher power output (at 1500 tons and thrust factor of 0.08, a<BR>
sideways thrust of 800 kN will be a thrust of about 0.5 gees, moving the<BR>
building at a stately 350 km per hour).<BR>
<BR>
It is built with a target mass of 1500t.<BR>
<BR>
Cost is a mere MCr 1.25, plus the cost of the rooms and ancillary<BR>
facilities. Thus the cost of the basic infrastructure is about KCr 60 per<BR>
resident - quite expensive, but not too bad for rich people at TL7 (about 10<BR>
years average income for a flat).<BR>
<BR>
Power fees will be about KCr 0.5 per person per year for radioactives.<BR>
<BR>
The views will be, frankly, spectacular.<BR>
<BR>
Ian Whitchurch<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 00:35:45 +0200 (METDST)<BR>
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk><BR>
Subject: Re: Drop takns<BR>
<BR>
Terry Carlino writes:<BR>
<BR>
>>But why aren't they designed for reuse?  If you work out the<BR>
>>numbers, that's were they have their impact and its hard<BR>
>>reationalize that they couldn't be made reusuable.<BR>
> <BR>
>IMTU I don't make them reusable because I don't especially want drop tanks<BR>
>to realign the entire economic basis of my game universe. Is this a good<BR>
>reason?<BR>
<BR>
Kind of what I used to tell my players when they asked me why the galaxy was<BR>
flat ("That's just the way it is and I don't want to hear another word about<BR>
it!"), eh? That's OK if it works for you and your players. But I can easily<BR>
understand why it wouldn't work for some.<BR>
<BR>
>Maybe drop tanks would cut out whole sections of Jump main worlds that would<BR>
>be bypassed by J-6 ships with jump tanks.<BR>
<BR>
Jump-1 ships with drop tanks would still be cheaper than jump-6 ships with<BR>
drop tanks. It's just the jump-6 ships that gets the greatest advantage.<BR>
The other routes would still exist.<BR>
<BR>
>Whole Megacorps might lose business because information is now able to<BR>
>travel faster than they can respond.<BR>
<BR>
Information is already able to travel at jump-6. Information is DENSE. AAMOF<BR>
information is the one thing that won't benefit much (if at all) from drop<BR>
tanks.<BR>
<BR>
>Maybe the Imperium and some Megacorps are already using drop tanks<BR>
>as part of a "secret" fast courier system and they don't want the other<BR>
>Megacorps and Interstellar governments to know how effective they are.<BR>
<BR>
Drop tanks won't improve the speed of a jump-6 courier network one iota. If<BR>
properly organized they won't slow it down, but that's all.<BR>
<BR>
>The point is that there are factors other than economic involved.<BR>
<BR>
sure, but so far no one who I've discussed it with have been able to come up<BR>
with one that worked.<BR>
<BR>
(The difference between David and me is that I don't think a solution is<BR>
necessary. Sure, drop tanks will change the economic face of the Imperium,<BR>
but so what? They're a recent invention. Why shouldn't the the Imperium<BR>
change over time?)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
      Hans Rancke<BR>
University of Copenhagen<BR>
     rancke@diku.dk<BR>
- ------------<BR>
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent<BR>
         events based on the individual situation."<BR>
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 14:45:11 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Grav Powered Floating Cities<BR>
<BR>
Luther Martin writes:<BR>
<BR>
> This does make a big assumption about the nature of grav technology. I<BR>
> believe that in this discussion is the implicit assumtion of the existence<BR>
> of a "graviton" which mediates the gravitational force, so that it has the<BR>
> same look and feel of EM, in which the force is mediated by photons. If<BR>
> these guys exist, we can then think about the effects of graviton beams and<BR>
> other such devices. Since this stuff is not mentioned in Traveller, maybe<BR>
> its TL16+.<BR>
<BR>
The problem is that gravitons probably do exist.  Unfortunately, unlike <BR>
electromagnetism, which has both attractive and repulsive properties, <BR>
gravitation only has attractive properties.<BR>
> <BR>
> Using gravitons, we can probably think of some interesting effects. What<BR>
> acts like an antenna for gravitions? Mass? So maybe we can create a<BR>
> graviton wave of the resonant frequency of an object and do interesting<BR>
> things to it. Increase its weight? Decrease its weight? Cause some sort of<BR>
> oscillations which cause it damage?<BR>
<BR>
The amount of energy required to create gravitational waves which will have<BR>
interesting effects on ordinary matter is a bit beyond the traveller scale<BR>
(we're talking about things like colliding black holes here).<BR>
> <BR>
> I suppose that I have always assumed that grav technology is something<BR>
> different entirely.<BR>
<BR>
It has to be, because 'grav' technology actually is 'anti-gravity' and 'force'<BR>
technology.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 14:38:32 -0800<BR>
From: "Luther Martin" <martin@ksarul.com><BR>
Subject: Roach Coach, LIC<BR>
<BR>
At lunch today I noticed the name on the side of our visiting mobile<BR>
cafeteria, Lee Industrial Catering. Actually, it was the back of the van<BR>
which caught my attention "Lee Industrial Catering, LIC."<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 01:02:05 +0200 (METDST)<BR>
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk><BR>
Subject: Re: Notes on building Heya<BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry writes:<BR>
<BR>
>You have two High Population worlds nearby, neither of which can support<BR>
>themselves.<BR>
<BR>
A high-population world HAS to be able to support itself. The amount of<BR>
shipping you'd need to import enough to support a billion people is<BR>
staggering.<BR>
<BR>
That's doesn't mean such a couldn't pay to import a bit of luxury food like<BR>
grain. But they don't HAVE to.<BR>
<BR>
>Enope/Reginea has a population of 6 billion and a trace atmosphere, while<BR>
>Rethe/Regina has 30 billion and no water!<BR>
<BR>
No free-standing water. Not the same as no water.<BR>
 <BR>
>The subsector government would gladly subsidize a few 60,000dt bulk grain<BR>
>haulers to insure that these worlds got some food.<BR>
<BR>
A few? One 60,000 T freighter could import about half a million dt of food<BR>
per year (Assuming about 30,000 T cargo hold and 17 round trips per year).<BR>
That's about seven billion liters of food unless I've made a mistake. If we<BR>
assume that a liter of food will support one person for one day you'd need<BR>
300 ships to keep Enope fed and 1500 to keep Rethe fed.<BR>
<BR>
And just how much are they paying for their food? If it's anything resembling<BR>
what it is worth, every man jack on Heya would be a millionaire.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
      Hans Rancke<BR>
University of Copenhagen<BR>
     rancke@diku.dk<BR>
- ------------<BR>
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent<BR>
         events based on the individual situation."<BR>
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8<BR>
<BR>
 <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 14:49:58 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Stellar Data question-- can "habitable" worlds exist around M-V stars?<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>> TL-7 is what we had 20-30 years ago. <BR>
><BR>
> I know.  Imagine 600,000 people living inside Skylab :)<BR>
<BR>
We had the *ability* to do quite a bit more than that. Just not the<BR>
*desire*. <sigh><BR>
<BR>
>> Spinward Marches Campaign shows Zenopit as:<BR>
>> <BR>
>> 1010 D130546-7   nIn Po De  622Na M8 D<BR>
>>      ||||||| | | |         |||||  |<BR>
>>      ||||||| | | |         |||||  +--- M8 *dwarf* (even worse than your <BR>
> data!)<BR>
>>      ||||||| | | |         ||||+------ non-aligned?<BR>
>>      ||||||| | | |         |||+------- 2 gas giants<BR>
>>      ||||||| | | |         ||+-------- 2 asteroid belts<BR>
>>      ||||||| | | |         |+--------- pop modifier 6<BR>
>>      ||||||| | | |         +---------- not-zoned<BR>
>>      ||||||| | | +-------------------- Non-industrial, Poor, Desert<BR>
>>      ||||||| | +---------------------- no bases<BR>
>>      ||||||| +------------------------ TL 7<BR>
>>      ||||||+-------------------------- All firearms except shotguns <BR>
> prohibited<BR>
>>      |||||+--------------------------- Representative democracy<BR>
>>      ||||+---------------------------- pop 600,000<BR>
>>      |||+----------------------------- no surface water<BR>
>>      ||+------------------------------ very thin atmosphere<BR>
>>      |+------------------------------- 1600 km diameter<BR>
>>      +-------------------------------- type D port<BR>
><BR>
> True, the CT data lists the stellar type as M8-D.  The Regency Sourcebook,<BR>
> however, lists the data (for 1117) as M3-V.  This helps out a lot.<BR>
><BR>
>> So, it's basicly a colder version of Luna, but with a very thin<BR>
>> atmosphere. Which makes it quite inhabitable, given 1970s technology. <BR>
><BR>
> I agree.  Domes or underground caverns would be required (judging by the<BR>
> law level, I'd bet on the latter)-- large enough to comfortably house<BR>
> 600,000+ people.  While we could conceivably build such a colony with TL7<BR>
> tech, that old question again pops up: "Why?"  After all, our planet's<BR>
> space-capable nations are probably averaging around TL8, and the closest<BR>
> we've gotten to a colony like Zenopit is the planned World Space Station<BR>
> (which won't hold anywhere near 600,000 people).  There would have to be an<BR>
> immense driving force for so many people to attempt to build a colony a<BR>
> week away from the closest habitable star system, large enough to house so<BR>
> many people, with technology considered "out of date" by today's standards.<BR>
<BR>
They probably started out a lot smaller and grew.<BR>
<BR>
> But I am getting off topic again.  If Zenopit was tidally locked, might the<BR>
> bright side be considered a "habitable" zone, or would the planet still be<BR>
> too far from its M3-V star?<BR>
<BR>
No idea.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 14:45:51 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: GMSound Software<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> On Tue, 28 Mar 2000, Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>> In mail you write:<BR>
>  <BR>
>> It's like running an emulator or an interpreter. Less efficient than<BR>
>> native code. Of course, with this attitude I ought to be running a RISC<BR>
>> chip. :-)<BR>
>> <BR>
>> But try finding software...<BR>
><BR>
> Well there's is this really nifty OS that runs on RISC chips...this sort<BR>
> of fruit named company sells it, Strawberry, no, Banana, no APPLE! Yeah,<BR>
> That's it! ( And Linux PPC, and Darwin, and soon Mac OSX ) :-P<BR>
><BR>
> for software, lessee, MacWarehouse, MacZone, MacMall, Mac Connection all do <BR>
> mail order, and CompUSA even sells a couple of titles...<BR>
><BR>
> Of course, if you want to get really macochistic, IBM sells this RISC<BR>
> using os called AIX...like Unix only IBM-ified for your confusion...<BR>
<BR>
Nah, if I want to get *that* masochistic, I'll dig out the Tektronix<BR>
Unix box I've got in storage. It's based on a National Semiconductor(?)<BR>
chip. I can never remember the chip, it's a: [16|32]0[16|32] (ie 16016,<BR>
16032, 32016, 32032, pick one)<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 14:54:14 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Stellar Data question-- can "habitable" worlds exist around M-V stars?<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>> TL7? No problem. Underground colony, mining gas ices for atmosphere and<BR>
>> using fission plants for power supply. Won't be a very healthy population,<BR>
>> though.<BR>
><BR>
> It might be able to build such an underground colony on Earth using TL7<BR>
> technology, but the difficulty goes w-a-y up when you are attempting to do<BR>
> so on a vacuum world a week away from the nearest habitable system.  Could<BR>
> we have built such a colony on the moon 30 years ago?<BR>
<BR>
Assuming the avilability of ice, we could have built one *50* years<BR>
ago. And the sort of ice deposit that could sustain something like this<BR>
with "average" recycling wouldn't even be all that big (as compared to<BR>
the world's surface area).<BR>
<BR>
And keep in mind that the population almost certainly started out at a<BR>
few thousand, and has grown from there over the centuries.<BR>
<BR>
>> Of course, one would have to find an explanation why they ever moved <BR>
> there...<BR>
><BR>
> That's the tricky part.  I dislike falling back on the old "they were high<BR>
> tech prior to the Long Night and the colony is barely surviving now" idea.<BR>
<BR>
The system has two belts, and 2 GGs. Assume the belts are worth mining.<BR>
And that the GGs don't have any large satellites that are suitable for<BR>
any sort of base. <BR>
<BR>
That leaves the planet as the best spot for an R&R setup for the<BR>
miners. Someplace with decent gravity, temps that aren't too bad, and<BR>
radiation levels that don't require shielding. <BR>
<BR>
After a while, such "mining towns" tend to acquire enough non-miners<BR>
(and ex-miners and ex-"entertainment") to become a somewhat viable<BR>
town, rather than just an R&R center. Wait 30-50 years and you'll have<BR>
folks who consider it "home".<BR>
<BR>
Mining provides cash. The ice deposit(s) make life support cheap. And<BR>
as long as they last long enough for the settlement to be<BR>
"established", you can likely continue by inporting ice (or hydrogen)<BR>
from the belts or the GGs.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 15:06:18 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Crossing Worlds<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Luther Martin posted:<BR>
>><BR>
> <snip><BR>
>><BR>
>>But wait, I thought, these guys have incredible psionic powers. It would be<BR>
>>a shame to waste all of the game so far. How about a cross-dimensional<BR>
>>misjump to another world where psionic powers are the basis for magic.<BR>
> Being<BR>
>>a big fan of the Tekumel setting, I saw the perfect opportunity.<BR>
>><BR>
>>So sparks fly, power surges happen, and something clearly goes wrong with<BR>
>>the jump. When they emerge, all of the stars except the local system are<BR>
>>gone...<BR>
><BR>
> Tekumel?!? What?!?!<BR>
><BR>
> I and three of my friends who live in different states aren't the only<BR>
> ones who still play?<BR>
<BR>
I've never gotten around to *playing*, but I bought the *original* TSR<BR>
rules when they came out (and kick myself for not realizing that "War<BR>
of Wizards" was a "supplement" )<BR>
<BR>
Hmmm... A fiendish idea occurs to me...<BR>
<BR>
The players discover a *huge* derelict ship drifting thru space. It's<BR>
the USS Warden... <eg><BR>
<BR>
(let's see how many folks are old enough to remember *that*) <BR>
<BR>
Oh, the fun when they board it...<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 00:30:44 +0100<BR>
From: "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Another Filk!<BR>
<BR>
Johnny and the Pirates.<BR>
(To the tune of The Vacant Chair)<BR>
<BR>
We shall meet, but we shall miss him,<BR>
There will  be one vacant chair,<BR>
Johnny tried to shoot the pirates,<BR>
And he didnt have a prayer.<BR>
In the cargo hold we gathered,<BR>
Joy was in his mild blue eye,<BR>
Johnny had a body pistol,<BR>
And a pirate made him die.<BR>
<BR>
We shall meet, but we shall miss him,<BR>
There will  be one vacant chair,<BR>
Johnny tried to shoot the pirates,<BR>
And he didnt have a prayer.<BR>
<BR>
In our crew lounge sad and lonely,<BR>
Often will the bosom swell,<BR>
At remembrance of the story<BR>
How our noble hero fell,<BR>
How he strove to repel boarders,<BR>
In the thickest of the fight,<BR>
Hoping he could save our cargo,<BR>
With a weapon lacking might.<BR>
<BR>
We shall meet, but we shall miss him,<BR>
There will  be one vacant chair,<BR>
Johnny tried to shoot the pirates,<BR>
And he didnt have a prayer.<BR>
<BR>
True, they tell us wreathes of glory,<BR>
Ever more will deck his brow,<BR>
We saw Johnny draw his pistol,<BR>
And we all know better now,<BR>
Sleep today, oh early Autumn!<BR>
In thy green and narrow bed,<BR>
Body pistols: 1d weapons,<BR>
If you use one you'll be dead.<BR>
<BR>
We shall meet, but we shall miss him,<BR>
There will  be one vacant chair,<BR>
Johnny tried to shoot the pirates,<BR>
And he didnt have a prayer.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 18:13:38 EST<BR>
From: Qstor@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Canon data on Five Sisters/876-574?<BR>
<BR>
Is there anything in the TNE or MT books? I don't own those.<BR>
<BR>
Thanks<BR>
<BR>
Mike<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 09:15:20 +1000<BR>
From: Cory Davis <c.davis@uws.edu.au><BR>
Subject: minimum size for RTG/NPU<BR>
<BR>
Hi all<BR>
<BR>
A player of mine in a G:T game wants to use a NPU with a size of 0.1 cf and <BR>
I was wondering just how small is canon for RTG and NPU. Any flavour of <BR>
Traveller opinions would be appreciated<BR>
<BR>
thanx<BR>
<BR>
Cory<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 16:22:11 -0700<BR>
From: Jason Postma <JasonP@i-link.net><BR>
Subject: RE: Landgrab: Cannoniacal Data on Thanber<BR>
<BR>
Some sources seem to say that Querion subsector was once Third Imperium<BR>
territory.  Anyone have ideas on how much was Imperial territory (Thanber in<BR>
particular).  Which Frontier War would Thanber have traded hands in (it's on<BR>
the trailing side of the subsector, of course)?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 15:21:06 -0800<BR>
From: "Luther Martin" <martin@ksarul.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Crossing Worlds<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Hmmm... A fiendish idea occurs to me...<BR>
><BR>
> The players discover a *huge* derelict ship drifting thru space. It's<BR>
> the USS Warden... <eg><BR>
><BR>
> (let's see how many folks are old enough to remember *that*)<BR>
<BR>
I even played MA. The game system did require some serious overhauling,<BR>
however.<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
> Oh, the fun when they board it...<BR>
<BR>
Typical Traveller players, will, of course, board it wearing TL15 battle<BR>
dress and carrying FGMP-15s.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 15:31:21 -0800<BR>
From: Thing <gduke@kendaco.telebyte.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Grav Powered Floating Cities<BR>
<BR>
>This does make a big assumption about the nature of grav technology. I<BR>
>believe that in this discussion is the implicit assumtion of the existence<BR>
>of a "graviton" which mediates the gravitational force, so that it has the<BR>
>same look and feel of EM, in which the force is mediated by photons. If<BR>
>these guys exist, we can then think about the effects of graviton beams and<BR>
>other such devices.<BR>
<BR>
I thought that the higgs bosons where supposed to be the communicative <BR>
particles for mass.  <BR>
http//physics.hallym.ac.kr/education/hep/adventure/higgs_boson.html<BR>
<BR>
So if you could produce a field that blocked higgs bosons whatever was in the <BR>
field would not know about the mass of objects outside the field.  I would <BR>
hate to think about what would happen if the field collapsed and the universe <BR>
caught up with you.<BR>
<BR>
G.D.D.<BR>
======<BR>
<BR>
G.D.D.<BR>
======<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 09:33:53 +1000<BR>
From: Cory Davis <c.davis@uws.edu.au><BR>
Subject: regimental colours<BR>
<BR>
Hi all<BR>
<BR>
all this talk about flag stuff made me think, how many colours do Imperial <BR>
marine and army regiments have ?<BR>
<BR>
do they have 1 colour ?<BR>
or 2 with a Emperor's colour and a regiment colour, with the guard <BR>
regiments having 4 being a Emperor's colour, a regiment colour, a domain <BR>
colour and a sunburst<BR>
or do they have sunburst standards like Imperial eagles (French or Roman)?<BR>
do nobles have banners for their huscarles?<BR>
<BR>
what is their use too, is it purely ceremonial ?<BR>
or serious combat propaganda tool showing that the Imperium is so powerful <BR>
it can actually care whether a scrap of silk on a pole gets planted in the <BR>
disputed ground ?<BR>
<BR>
do naval ships still have flags ?<BR>
are they still actually made of cloth ?<BR>
or specially presented transponders that carry a much loved history of the <BR>
glories of the ship<BR>
<BR>
just some things for people to think about<BR>
<BR>
Cory<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 11:39:27 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Stellar Data question...<BR>
<BR>
On 29 Mar 00, at 5:10, Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> In mail you write:<BR>
> <BR>
> > On 28 Mar 00, at 22:40, Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
> ><BR>
> >> Well, raspberries *climb* ok. At least the ones I helped pick (and trim<BR>
> >> & train) did. <BR>
> ><BR>
> > Ah, I see. My parent's ones are just sort of bushes/scrubs, unlike the<BR>
> > wil blackberries down the road, which are kinda like a jungle (or NZ<BR>
> > bush).<BR>
> <BR>
> I think there may be a couple of varieties. Here in Oregon, we suffer from<BR>
> having had the Himalayan Blackberry introduced sometime in the 1800s. It<BR>
> produces the most *amazing* thickets.<BR>
<BR>
Wild Blackberries are a noxious weed in NZ, and you're supposed to kill <BR>
them whenever you see them. However the railroads always have them <BR>
beside the tracks, and they never seem to get fined for it. I'n not <BR>
sure why it's treated like this, as gorse isn't, and it's far more of a <BR>
problem.<BR>
<BR>
As kids we used to stop on the roadside on the way home after school <BR>
(the busstop was 2 miles from home) and pick blackberries from the <BR>
thicket. To get the best berries we'd throw our coats onto the top of <BR>
the thicket (which was below the level of the raodside) and hop onto <BR>
them. Of course getting out again was interesting.<BR>
<BR>
> Funny you should mention that. Some friends who live on the edge of<BR>
> town had much of their property taken over by blackberries. They bought a<BR>
> kid. He's now a full grown goat. And they no longer have a blackberry<BR>
> problem. <BR>
> <BR>
> They are planning on making a goat cart for him to pull when they are at<BR>
> SCA events. <BR>
> <BR>
> BTW, I'm *amazed* at the way Giles the goat can cheerfully munch away at<BR>
> stuff I can't even pick up without gloves...<BR>
<BR>
Great beasts goats, they can live on just about anything vegetable <BR>
(just don't feed them goat's rue - it's called that for a reason). <BR>
They've become quite popular with farmers here, who use them for gorse <BR>
control. However feral goats are a serious environmental problem <BR>
because they destroy the bush (and when it sarts to regrow the possums <BR>
eat the new growth).<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
An pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 09:41:40 +1000<BR>
From: Cory Davis <c.davis@uws.edu.au><BR>
Subject: size of 40mm grenade warhead<BR>
<BR>
Hi all<BR>
<BR>
what would be volume and weight of a 40mm grenade warhead, I'm trying to <BR>
make a jamming grenade for G:T and I want to know how big a deceptive <BR>
jammer I can fit into the grenade<BR>
<BR>
thanx<BR>
<BR>
Cory<BR>
<BR>
PS I'm thinking that the FS elephant pack PAWS is a good idea but low on <BR>
mobility, do you think that the FS jet bike could be modified to make FS <BR>
elephant jet skates, sure it might be hard to train your elephant but just <BR>
think about the uses<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 17:38:17 -0600<BR>
From: Stormhound <stormhnd@fidnet.com><BR>
Subject: Re: First cut of a grav building<BR>
<BR>
Katharine Whitchurch wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> This is the first cut of the Famile Spofulam Grav Tower. It is built at TL9,<BR>
> for the Export Market.<BR>
<BR>
    I knew we could count on ya. (g)<BR>
<BR>
> 200 Large Staterooms 11200 m3, 800t, MCr 10 (?? should be lower, as these<BR>
> dont have to be built to space standards - no iris valves etc. With 3m<BR>
> ceilings, this puts about 15 layers of rooms in the building. Thus with 4<BR>
> rooms on each side, everybody gets a view)<BR>
<BR>
    Don't *have* to be is the key.  You still could, particularly for use in<BR>
atmospheres with problems...so that one nut cracking a window wouldn't wipe out<BR>
the whole place.<BR>
<BR>
> moving the building at a stately 350 km per hour).<BR>
<BR>
    ROFL...only FS would refer to that as "stately".  Actually, would any sort<BR>
of compensators be required for the horizontal vector?  I'd hate to be in the<BR>
place if it tipped over...(g)<BR>
<BR>
> The views will be, frankly, spectacular.<BR>
<BR>
    Especially at flank speed. (g)  I like!  And if you set up the dwellings on<BR>
a mortgage basis, it'd be easily affordable.  Let's hear it for the FS<BR>
Grav-Condo! (g)<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
Stormhound<BR>
DNRC Ombudsman for Induhvidual Affairs, Holder of Past Knowledge<BR>
Come visit my web page at http://www.fidnet.com/~stormhnd<BR>
Or my new Amateur Radio web page at http://www.qsl.net/kc0ekv<BR>
Or my JN6 course design page at http://www.fidnet.com/~stormhnd/golfpage.htm<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 15:58:10 -0800<BR>
From: "Luther Martin" <martin@ksarul.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Grav Powered Floating Cities<BR>
<BR>
Thing wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> I thought that the higgs bosons where supposed to be the communicative <BR>
> particles for mass. <BR>
<BR>
I thought that Bosons were associated with the weak nuclear force. <BR>
<BR>
http://physics.hallym.ac.kr/education/hep/adventure/gravity.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 02:07:31 +0200 (METDST)<BR>
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk><BR>
Subject: Re: Drop tanks<BR>
<BR>
Ian Whitchurch writes:<BR>
<BR>
>Just up the misjump chances. A misjump chance of 0.5% will destroy the<BR>
>usuability of drop tanks, fuel tankers etc in commercial roles, but allow<BR>
>them for military deep-penetration raids (where an additional 0.5% chance of<BR>
>loss is rounding error).<BR>
<BR>
But this is really just as much against canon since it is established that<BR>
drop tank liners have been in use for decades in 1105.<BR>
<BR>
If you do want to go that way I'd suggest having the misjump chance develop<BR>
in the engine after a number of years. Soon enough to bugger up the economics<BR>
but long enough that the first drop tank liners could run for 1 to 2 decades<BR>
before the problem was discovered.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
      Hans Rancke<BR>
University of Copenhagen<BR>
     rancke@diku.dk<BR>
- ------------<BR>
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent<BR>
         events based on the individual situation."<BR>
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2215<BR>
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Traveller-digest     Wednesday, March 29 2000     Volume 1999 : Number 2216<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Flag Stoppages<BR>
Re: Flag Stoppages<BR>
Re: OT: Organized Resistance (was Re: The ecologies of space rocks with people on them)<BR>
Re: Filk explosion! Dulinor went to Capital<BR>
Re: Scalable deckplans<BR>
Re: Beanstalks<BR>
RE: OT: Organized Resistance (was Re: The ecologies of space rock s with people on them)<BR>
RE:Grav-powered floating cities?<BR>
Re: TNE Answers<BR>
GT:Starports & Classic Reprints!<BR>
Re: Multimedia Traveller<BR>
Re: Landgrab: Cannoniacal Data on Thanber<BR>
Re: TNE Answers<BR>
De Hamylton<BR>
Re: Gambling skill<BR>
Re: Contract Law 101<BR>
Re: Stellar Data Question -- can "habitable" worlds exist around M-V stars?<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 15:10:18 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Flag Stoppages<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>> -----Original Message-----<BR>
>> From: Douglas E. Berry [mailto:gridlore@pop.mindspring.com]<BR>
>> They go to the speakeasies that enteprising souls will open. <BR>
>> Ever been to<BR>
>> Fayetteville?  Hays St. is filled with places that make <BR>
>> Victory look like a<BR>
>> Baptist Church.<BR>
><BR>
> Oh, Deity!  Fayette-Nam!  I had almost recovered from that place.  Ouch.<BR>
><BR>
> I have a friend there that just got done with Green Beret training.  He <BR>
> broke his ankle last year about a week before the end of the trial.  He went <BR>
> on for about three days after, but the made him stop.  They let him come <BR>
> back an try again.<BR>
><BR>
> ObTrav:<BR>
>   Just how difficult is training for the Imperial forces - especially ground <BR>
> forces?  What's the attrition rate for Imperial Marine training?  What about <BR>
> vehicle crew?  Do they get the same/similar training for the mud puppies?<BR>
<BR>
Check out the first chapter or two of "Tunnel in the Sky". <BR>
<BR>
(more or less from memory)<BR>
<BR>
"I see you brought your cold weather gear" (makes check mark). "You can<BR>
leave it here."<BR>
<BR>
"You mean I didn't need it?"<BR>
<BR>
"Oh no, you did. I've already flunked four people for failing to bring<BR>
their long johns. And one for showing up with a space suit..."<BR>
<BR>
Of course, in Traveller, they'd take you down in big grav shuttles<BR>
(think of the equivalent of a "flying banana") with the windows covered<BR>
and dump you out the door from a feet feet up. Same effect otherwise.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 15:15:20 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Flag Stoppages<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Heh, Victory Drive isn't so bad anymore. They actually closed down the<BR>
> Traffic Light Lounge, which was my favorite "Alternate Entertainment<BR>
> Establishment". The Columbus city council has gone on a morality kick the<BR>
> last few years. They've even decided to enact an ordinance that would forbid<BR>
> establishments that feature nekkid women from serving booze. There is now<BR>
> officially nothing fun to do here.<BR>
<BR>
I thought that's why one of the Bureau 13 books had you all driving<BR>
across the river (state line) to some little town that exists only to<BR>
"service" such visitors. :-)<BR>
<BR>
> ObTrav: What would bored off-duty Imperial servicepeople do on a world where<BR>
> the government closed down all the entertainment for "moral reasons"?<BR>
<BR>
Raise various kinds of hell until their COs "convince" the locals that<BR>
they've made a *bad* decision. :-)<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 15:21:32 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: OT: Organized Resistance (was Re: The ecologies of space rocks with people on them)<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Leonard Erikson wrote:<BR>
>>Thanks. I suppose that it's obvious that I'm the type of guy who had<BR>
>>the inhabitants of the "dungeon" start organizing to deal with the<BR>
>>adventurers in D&D?<BR>
><BR>
> I will always recall the looks on their faces when a bunch of kobolds<BR>
> killed their 5th and 6th level characters. Not on the way into the<BR>
> dungeon - but by ambushing them on the way *out*.<BR>
><BR>
> It's amazing how vulnerable a party of adventurers can be when they've<BR>
> used up all their spells, most of their hit points, and all of their<BR>
> encumbrance. <BR>
<BR>
I had to *wait* for the gratification on one bit I pulled. The party<BR>
was about to leave the castle, when they ran into a party of "evil<BR>
clerics". There were only 3 clerics, so the players weren't *too*<BR>
worried. On the other hand, they *were* kinda chewed up. And they had<BR>
to face 3 more encounter rolls from the castle to the boat (the castle<BR>
was on an island in a *big* lake), and one more on the boat trip (the<BR>
town was on another island, about a mile away). <BR>
<BR>
So both parties are eyeing each other warily and "negotiating" so as to<BR>
get past each other with minimal chance for ambush. Then it occurs to<BR>
one of the players that even *evil* cleric can do "cure wounds" spells.<BR>
<BR>
The party debates a bit and decides that it can hurt to try. After all,<BR>
if they throw a harmful spell, the rest of the party can hurt them<BR>
pretty bad before they are taken out.<BR>
<BR>
"How much for 3 'cure serious' spells?"<BR>
<BR>
<clerics go into a huddle><BR>
<BR>
"1000 gold each."<BR>
<BR>
"What! They're only 500 in town!"<BR>
<BR>
"So go into town if you don't like our price..."<BR>
<BR>
The players grumbled, but paid. And spells were cast and the characters<BR>
recovered some points and made it back to town alive.<BR>
<BR>
A month or so later, they hear a story in a bar.<BR>
<BR>
"So these three first level clerics of XXXX ran into this party coming<BR>
out of the dungeon and charged them 1000 gold each for 'cure light'<BR>
spells. After all, how could they tell the difference?"<BR>
<BR>
The players realized they'd been had. But *good*. A cure light went for<BR>
*100* gold pieces in town. <BR>
<BR>
If they'd had a *functional* cleric in the party, the scam wouldn't<BR>
have worked. But they didn't (I forget whether he was unconcious or<BR>
dead). <BR>
<BR>
Obtrav: <BR>
<BR>
*Always* check out those "good deals", and keep in mind that when<BR>
someone has you over a barrel, the high price may not be the *only*<BR>
scam they are running on you.<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
> "Wait a minute. I thought you said *fourteen* kobolds!!"<BR>
>             - famous last words of a dungeon delver<BR>
><BR>
> ObTrav: We're gearing up in a PBeM for a long range survey mission.<BR>
> I really hope the Captain puts as much mind into getting back as<BR>
> she does into getting out.<BR>
><BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 15:36:16 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Filk explosion! Dulinor went to Capital<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Note: This one scans very strangely if you aren't familiar with the<BR>
> original. The song changes tempo several times.<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> Dulinor Went Down to Capital<BR>
><BR>
> Douglas Berry<BR>
><BR>
> Original "Devil Went Down to Georgia" Charlie Daniels Band.<BR>
<BR>
<sigh><BR>
<BR>
I'd *love* to see this done at a con's filk circle. But there's no way<BR>
in *hell* to get the instruments and a good singer together without<BR>
alerting folks that *something* was up. <BR>
<BR>
ObTrav:<BR>
<BR>
Play "Dawson's Christian" for your players. And even though parts of it<BR>
aren't quite "right" for the TU, it'll *still* send shivers up their<BR>
spines. <BR>
<BR>
And if they find a derelict or respond to a "We're under attack call"<BR>
any time soon afterwards, they'll be half *expecting* the Christian to<BR>
show up...<BR>
<BR>
Explanation follows. Don't read unless you want the song spoiled:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
The Christain is a warship that was lost. The last radio call seems to<BR>
indicate they were attacked by a bunch of "pirates" that outclassed<BR>
them. The ship was never found.<BR>
<BR>
Then, a merchie is being attacked by pirates, when out of nowhere comes<BR>
this ship throwing beams hotter than any ship that size should be able<BR>
to and shrugging off hits that should have reduced to to wreckage.<BR>
<BR>
It finishes off the last pirate, and approaches them. As they get close<BR>
enough for good visuals, they see that they ship is shot up so bacly it<BR>
shouldn't be able to move. Then as it passes at "arms length" they can<BR>
read the name of the battered hull... "Christian"...<BR>
<BR>
At that point, the ship starts to fade from sight. First the hull, then<BR>
the contents. "... and the last to fade from sight are the bones of<BR>
Jamie Dawson and his crew ..."<BR>
<BR>
The song ends with the singer realizing that he and his crew have been<BR>
saved by a ghost ship. Obviously, it's being sung in a starport bar as<BR>
an explanation of *why* he and his crew are getting drunk and toasting<BR>
a ship lost months before.<BR>
<BR>
<the above has been altered slightly to fit Traveller tech a bit<BR>
better. The original had the ships having defensive "screens", and the<BR>
Christian pulled along side before dropping her screens.><BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 15:51:07 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Scalable deckplans<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> In a message dated 3/28/00 5:32:23 PM Pacific Standard Time, <BR>
> owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com writes:<BR>
><BR>
>> Personally, I'd like to see plans in a scalable *vector* format. Then<BR>
>>  you can feed them into a *plotter*. Since even my "tiny" HP-7475A can<BR>
>>  do 11x17 (B-size), this is a not to be ignored option. <BR>
>>  <BR>
>>  And I'd love to see how some of the *big* ship plans (or world maps)<BR>
>>  look done on an E sized plotter.<BR>
>>  <BR>
>>  Paper sizes:<BR>
>>  A = 8.5" x 11"<BR>
>>  B = 11" x 17"<BR>
>>  C = 17" x 22"<BR>
>>  D = 22" x 34"<BR>
>>  E = 34" x 44"<BR>
>>  <BR>
>>  As far as I know, there is no "F" size!<BR>
>>  <BR>
>>  But you have to admit that an E sized map or plan would nicely cover<BR>
>>  that dining rom table. :-)<BR>
><BR>
> The next version of the HIWG CD will include that option (baring unforeseen <BR>
> events).<BR>
<BR>
Gee, maybe next time an E-size plotter shows up on the local for sale<BR>
echo, I could buy it and start selling E-sized world maps on drafting<BR>
film as wall hangings to GMs. :-)<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 15:52:42 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Beanstalks<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> In a message dated 3/29/00 3:22:04 AM Pacific Standard Time, <BR>
> owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com writes:<BR>
><BR>
>> "Rotovators" aka "revolving tethers" are another possibility. <BR>
>>  <BR>
>>  Somebody *really* needs to do up articles about these and other<BR>
>>  "interesting" technologies with an eye towards making it easy for<BR>
>>  authors and gamers to figure out how well they'd work on different<BR>
>>  sorts of worlds.<BR>
><BR>
> There is an old article/paper on beanstalks on the CD.<BR>
<BR>
But does it explain how to calculate the required materials and costs<BR>
for different world sizes and rotation rates?<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 17:26:14 -0700<BR>
From: Jason Postma <JasonP@i-link.net><BR>
Subject: RE: OT: Organized Resistance (was Re: The ecologies of space rock s with people on them)<BR>
<BR>
If they had been anything like my players, they would have paid the evil<BR>
clerics for the cure spells and then, when they had more hitpoints, killed<BR>
the clerics and taken their money back.   <BR>
<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com [mailto:shadow@krypton.rain.com]<BR>
Sent: Wednesday, March 29, 2000 4:22 PM<BR>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Subject: Re: OT: Organized Resistance (was Re: The ecologies of space<BR>
rocks with people on them)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Leonard Erikson wrote:<BR>
>>Thanks. I suppose that it's obvious that I'm the type of guy who had<BR>
>>the inhabitants of the "dungeon" start organizing to deal with the<BR>
>>adventurers in D&D?<BR>
><BR>
> I will always recall the looks on their faces when a bunch of kobolds<BR>
> killed their 5th and 6th level characters. Not on the way into the<BR>
> dungeon - but by ambushing them on the way *out*.<BR>
><BR>
> It's amazing how vulnerable a party of adventurers can be when they've<BR>
> used up all their spells, most of their hit points, and all of their<BR>
> encumbrance. <BR>
<BR>
I had to *wait* for the gratification on one bit I pulled. The party<BR>
was about to leave the castle, when they ran into a party of "evil<BR>
clerics". There were only 3 clerics, so the players weren't *too*<BR>
worried. On the other hand, they *were* kinda chewed up. And they had<BR>
to face 3 more encounter rolls from the castle to the boat (the castle<BR>
was on an island in a *big* lake), and one more on the boat trip (the<BR>
town was on another island, about a mile away). <BR>
<BR>
So both parties are eyeing each other warily and "negotiating" so as to<BR>
get past each other with minimal chance for ambush. Then it occurs to<BR>
one of the players that even *evil* cleric can do "cure wounds" spells.<BR>
<BR>
The party debates a bit and decides that it can hurt to try. After all,<BR>
if they throw a harmful spell, the rest of the party can hurt them<BR>
pretty bad before they are taken out.<BR>
<BR>
"How much for 3 'cure serious' spells?"<BR>
<BR>
<clerics go into a huddle><BR>
<BR>
"1000 gold each."<BR>
<BR>
"What! They're only 500 in town!"<BR>
<BR>
"So go into town if you don't like our price..."<BR>
<BR>
The players grumbled, but paid. And spells were cast and the characters<BR>
recovered some points and made it back to town alive.<BR>
<BR>
A month or so later, they hear a story in a bar.<BR>
<BR>
"So these three first level clerics of XXXX ran into this party coming<BR>
out of the dungeon and charged them 1000 gold each for 'cure light'<BR>
spells. After all, how could they tell the difference?"<BR>
<BR>
The players realized they'd been had. But *good*. A cure light went for<BR>
*100* gold pieces in town. <BR>
<BR>
If they'd had a *functional* cleric in the party, the scam wouldn't<BR>
have worked. But they didn't (I forget whether he was unconcious or<BR>
dead). <BR>
<BR>
Obtrav: <BR>
<BR>
*Always* check out those "good deals", and keep in mind that when<BR>
someone has you over a barrel, the high price may not be the *only*<BR>
scam they are running on you.<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
> "Wait a minute. I thought you said *fourteen* kobolds!!"<BR>
>             - famous last words of a dungeon delver<BR>
><BR>
> ObTrav: We're gearing up in a PBeM for a long range survey mission.<BR>
> I really hope the Captain puts as much mind into getting back as<BR>
> she does into getting out.<BR>
><BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 18:18:25 -0600<BR>
From: Richard Wilson <rtwilson@rollanet.org><BR>
Subject: RE:Grav-powered floating cities?<BR>
<BR>
At 12:08 PM 3/29/00 -0500, you wrote:<BR>
> >I' ve found several references to grav-powered floating cities on High-Tech<BR>
> >worlds in Traveller.<BR>
> ><BR>
> >My question is:<BR>
> ><BR>
> >Why? I mean, why should anyone build such a city? Every technology can<BR>
> >fail, so it's an additional source for desasters. Plus it's not easy to<BR>
> >walk to a suburb...<BR>
><BR>
>Because we can!<BR>
><BR>
>Why build a city on top of one of the most seismically active faults in<BR>
>North America? Why build a major resort city smack in the middle of a<BR>
>hurricane pathway? Why build on the seacoast at all (except for ocean<BR>
>terminals?) Why are $500,000 homes built on rivers and beaches in the middle<BR>
>of the flood plain.<BR>
><BR>
>Because the view is good. Because I want to live next to the ocean so I can<BR>
>walk down the beach and get easy access to my boat. Because the air is<BR>
>clean, the mountains are right here, and I like the lifestyle.<BR>
><BR>
>Because I can!<BR>
<BR>
Because the government will underwrite your insurance costs.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>Terry C<BR>
>All that is Gold does not glitter<BR>
>Not all who travel are lost<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Richard Wilson<BR>
<BR>
rtwilson@rollanet.org<BR>
<BR>
========================================================================<BR>
Humanity is not something we should aspire to. It is something we should<BR>
strive to overcome.<BR>
========================================================================<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 10:46:30 +1000<BR>
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au<BR>
Subject: Re: TNE Answers<BR>
<BR>
Dear Folks -<BR>
<BR>
Martin posted:<BR>
>I'm in negotiation with a couple of e-publishers about a TNE novel line, and<BR>
>talking to Marc about carrying it on into the future. The Wave, the Curtain<BR>
>etc will feature in due course. The entire project hinges upon there being<BR>
>sufficient interest. Given the lack of response, maybe there isn't enough.<BR>
<BR>
[wakes up, shakes head] "Huh?"<BR>
<BR>
>So: Anyone care to discuss this:<BR>
<BR>
>1. The Answers will be found in the pages of fiction. I have a novel of mine<BR>
>and one by a famous Traveller author ready to go, and interest from a<BR>
>publisher. If they do OK then we should be able to carry on.<BR>
<BR>
[now wide-eyed but mouth not awake] "Mmmglumph! Yes! Yes!"<BR>
<BR>
>2. The books will be in e-book form only.<BR>
><BR>
>I need to know if it's worth pursuing. Is it?<BR>
<BR>
[frantically scans message for a URL] "What do you mean its not written and<BR>
still in discussion and not yet available and what do you mean I can't buy it<BR>
yet? WHY NOT??!!! I want it now now now now -" <thwap!><BR>
<BR>
Ahem. We now return you to your regularly scheduled TML thread.<BR>
<BR>
(BTW, I think the earlier fellow, who is now, er, sleeping peacefully, was<BR>
trying to say "Yes" to your final question. ;-)<BR>
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)<BR>
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au<BR>
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"<BR>
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those<BR>
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the<BR>
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.<BR>
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 18:53:02 -0600<BR>
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
Subject: GT:Starports & Classic Reprints!<BR>
<BR>
Stopped in at the local FLGS (Game Chest, Valley View Mall,<BR>
Dallas, Tx).<BR>
<BR>
Long, black, sleek with a racing stripe: "Books 0-8: The Classic<BR>
Books"  I am as happy as a little girl.  I've never even seen<BR>
Merchant Prince or Robots before.  I am so glad MM did this.<BR>
I'm going to buy at least one extra copy for myself and probably<BR>
a couple for friends who would enjoy it.<BR>
<BR>
GT:Starports.  Another gorgeous cover! I nominate Jesse as the<BR>
exclusive source of cover art for GT products!<BR>
<BR>
Obviously, I won't be getting any work done anytime soon.<BR>
:-)<BR>
<BR>
bloo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 16:10:44 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Multimedia Traveller<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Heads up, folks!<BR>
><BR>
> Photos of the asteroid Eros taken by the NEAR<BR>
> probe are being released by NASA almost on<BR>
> a daily basis. They can be found at the<BR>
> following site:<BR>
><BR>
> http://near.jhuapl.edu/<BR>
><BR>
> For those of you who use computers during your<BR>
> adventures, the videos of Eros are *stunning*.<BR>
><BR>
> Click on the "Image of the Day Archive" link<BR>
> and download the 2nd Eros Flyover movie.<BR>
> Available in animated .gif, Quicktime, and MPEG<BR>
> format, it is _the_ closest video of a real<BR>
> asteroid in the history of the human species.<BR>
> Taken from a distance of approx. 126 miles,<BR>
> lots of details are readily visible. The MPG<BR>
> video player which comes with Win95/98 allows<BR>
> you to freeze-frame just be clicking on the<BR>
> image.<BR>
<BR>
I get these via the Fidonet NASA filecho. So I have the 500k animated<BR>
GIF, which isn't half bad. A lot of the other pictures are kinda nice<BR>
too. There's one view of a galaxy that with just a bit of editing would<BR>
be *perfect* to show some players when they say "Ok, so we misjumped,<BR>
what do we see?"<BR>
<BR>
<eg><BR>
<BR>
> For you trivia buffs: What unmanned spacecraft<BR>
> has recently performed an even closer flyby of<BR>
> a planetary body/satellite?<BR>
<BR>
Mars Observer. You *can't* fly closer than impact.... :-)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> David<BR>
><BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 16:14:24 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Landgrab: Cannoniacal Data on Thanber<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> On Tue, 28 Mar 2000 18:01:28 PST, Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>> In mail you write:<BR>
>> <BR>
>> > I'm doing Thanber (0717/Querion) for the landgrab.  I have BTC and the <BR>
> T:NE<BR>
>> > Regency Sourcebook, but I don't have the Traveller Adventure, Fifth <BR>
> Frontier<BR>
>> > War, or the original SM book.  Anyone know if there are any refrences to<BR>
>> > Thanber in any of those sources?<BR>
>> <BR>
>> SMC<BR>
>> Thanber<BR>
>> hex  UPP       notes  PBG   star1  star2<BR>
>> ---- --------- ------ ---   -----  -----<BR>
>> 0717 B243653-C nIn Po 210Cs M9 V   M1 D<BR>
         ^size *2*<BR>
<BR>
> The only thing that I have to add is that the actual asteroid belt that<BR>
> "is" Thanber<BR>
<BR>
Excuse me? See above. Thanber is a size 2 world, not a belt (size 0).<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 16:32:15 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: TNE Answers<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> I'm in negotiation with a couple of e-publishers about a TNE novel line, and<BR>
> talking to Marc about carrying it on into the future. The Wave, the Curtain<BR>
> etc will feature in due course. The entire project hinges upon there being<BR>
> sufficient interest. Given the lack of response, maybe there isn't enough.<BR>
<BR>
I may have overlooked it, plus I lost an entire evenings email the<BR>
other day...<BR>
<BR>
> So: Anyone care to discuss this:<BR>
><BR>
> 1. The Answers will be found in the pages of fiction. I have a novel of mine<BR>
> and one by a famous Traveller author ready to go, and interest from a<BR>
> publisher. If they do OK then we should be able to carry on.<BR>
><BR>
> 2. The books will be in e-book form only.<BR>
><BR>
> I need to know if it's worth pursuing. Is it?<BR>
<BR>
I can't say, because frankly, I can't say if I'd buy a book without<BR>
seeing at least some of it unless it's from an author with a good track<BR>
record (ie one who seems to be unable to write something I'd dislike).<BR>
<BR>
That's why I like the samples Baen was putting up on their web sites.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 17:07:41 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
Subject: De Hamylton<BR>
<BR>
Found this while playing with maps (from the Core site):<BR>
De Hamylton (Firdausl/Aldebaran, A100A56-I) is TL 18, in the Solomani sphere.<BR>
<BR>
How canonical is that sector?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 11:05:17 +1000<BR>
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au<BR>
Subject: Re: Gambling skill<BR>
<BR>
Dear Folks -<BR>
<BR>
Glenn said:<BR>
>Ian Fleming's Moonraker (the book, not the movie) has an<BR>
>excellent beginning sequence, in which M asks Bond to help him<BR>
>stop Sir Hugo Drax's annoying cheating at bridge at M's club.<BR>
<BR>
Yes! And that's the only part of the original Moonraker book that I remember,<BR>
precisely since the scene was set so well. I wonder if Ian Fleming (ex-spy) had<BR>
Gambling-3?<BR>
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)<BR>
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au<BR>
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"<BR>
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those<BR>
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the<BR>
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.<BR>
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 18:07:32 -0600<BR>
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Contract Law 101<BR>
<BR>
Glenn Goffin wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Doing something for free ... the other person relies on it ...<BR>
> estoppel ... something ... detriment ... I don't remember -- is<BR>
> this the rule in Shelly's case?<BR>
<BR>
I don't know.   Ask Rose the 2nd of Abalone.<BR>
<BR>
Ob. Trav. On either Collace or Garda-Vilis, I shall install<BR>
Rose the 2nd of Abalone to a noble rank.  Hehehe.<BR>
<BR>
(Inside lawyer joke)<BR>
<BR>
bloo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 20:29:36 EST<BR>
From: Damage169@cs.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Stellar Data Question -- can "habitable" worlds exist around M-V stars?<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 3/29/00 2:14:35 PM Central Standard Time, <BR>
owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
> It might be able to build such an underground colony on Earth using TL7<BR>
>  technology, but the difficulty goes w-a-y up when you are attempting to do<BR>
>  so on a vacuum world a week away from the nearest habitable system.  Could<BR>
>  we have built such a colony on the moon 30 years ago?<BR>
>  <BR>
>  > Of course, one would have to find an explanation why they ever moved <BR>
there.<BR>
> ..<BR>
>  <BR>
>  That's the tricky part.  I dislike falling back on the old "they were high<BR>
>  tech prior to the Long Night and the colony is barely surviving now" idea.<BR>
>  <BR>
<BR>
Okay, how's this: These 600,000 people are the descendants of a bootstrap <BR>
mining colony from one of the other moderately mid-tech systems nearby. The <BR>
motherworld got an Imperial loan to help improve their industrial base, part <BR>
of which they used to finance this colony as a fairly reliable source of raw <BR>
materials. They hire/request an Imperial Army Corps of Engineers unit to <BR>
tunnel out the original caverns for habitation and life support, following <BR>
Leonard Erickson's excellent advice, but use technology they know and can <BR>
keep in repair (TL 8-constructed versions of TL 6 equipment would be <BR>
incredibly durable, allowing the colony to get their industrial feet under <BR>
them before having to worry about failing equipment). After several hundred <BR>
years, the resource colony has enough population and industrial capability to <BR>
set out on their own, even improving their basic tech level to TL 7.<BR>
<BR>
Good enough?<BR>
<BR>
Doug G.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2216<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2217</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
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Traveller-digest     Wednesday, March 29 2000     Volume 1999 : Number 2217<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
test<BR>
Re: Grav mechanics(was:Re: Grav Powered Floating Cities)<BR>
unsubscribe<BR>
Re: TNE Answers<BR>
Re: Crossing Worlds<BR>
Re: Contract Law 101<BR>
Completely OT<BR>
Re: beanstalks and bednobs<BR>
Re: Traveller 3D maps and Computers at the game table<BR>
Re: Grav-powered floating cities II<BR>
Re: Drop Tanks and Trains<BR>
Re: Grav Powered Floating Cities<BR>
Re: GMSound Software<BR>
Re: Crossing Worlds<BR>
Re: Why Loren can't explain, why he can't explain<BR>
Fw: TNE Answers<BR>
Re: Stellar Data question-- can "habitable" worlds exist around M-V stars?<BR>
TU spills over...<BR>
Re: Why Loren can't explain, why he can't explain<BR>
Re: Grav Powered Floating Cities<BR>
Re: Grav Powered Floating Cities<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 17:35:41 -0800<BR>
From: "Wayne" <ewart67@home.com><BR>
Subject: test<BR>
<BR>
test<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 17:40:00 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Grav mechanics(was:Re: Grav Powered Floating Cities)<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> At 23:19 28.03.00 PST, Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>>Ok, it's like this. Gravity exerts a *force* on the city. But energy is<BR>
>>force times DISTANCE MOVED. So it takes energy to *move* the city<BR>
>>upwards against the force of gravity. And lowering the city *releases*<BR>
>>energy. <BR>
><BR>
> But that is not true if contragravity is more like a "graviton thruster".<BR>
<BR>
If it was a "graviton thruster", it wouldn't just support the city.<BR>
It'd also push *down* against the area under the city, rather than<BR>
against the planet in general. Which means that walking under a<BR>
"floating city would be a *bad* idea... :-)<BR>
<BR>
Also, the energy required to create that many gravitons would be simply<BR>
*hideous*. <BR>
<BR>
> [snip- analogy to electromagnetism)<BR>
><BR>
> This might be an answer. But what about starship maneuver drives? How do<BR>
> they work, since their technology is claimed to be based on gravitics?<BR>
<BR>
Well, since they violate conservation of energy *and* conservation of<BR>
momentum, there's no real *point* in trying to justify them. Because<BR>
they are flat out impossible. <BR>
<BR>
On the other hand CG doesn't violate any laws of physics. Neither does<BR>
the (limited) artificial gravity inside ships.<BR>
  <BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 04:09:15 +0200<BR>
From: "Giuseppe" <russellp@iafrica.com><BR>
Subject: unsubscribe<BR>
<BR>
how do I unsubscribe?<BR>
thanks,<BR>
G.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 21:46:33 EST<BR>
From: Qstor@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: TNE Answers<BR>
<BR>
I think that the novels would be a fantastic idea! If the publisher is <BR>
large/international it would be a great away along with the CT reprints and <BR>
GT to get the game system moving again....<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 21:50:04 -0500<BR>
From: "Smith, Walter" <SmithW@hartwick.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Crossing Worlds<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
>Hmmm... A fiendish idea occurs to me... <BR>
><BR>
>The players discover a *huge* derelict ship drifting thru space. It's <BR>
>the USS Warden... <eg> <BR>
><BR>
>(let's see how many folks are old enough to remember *that*) <BR>
<BR>
I was at a game convention in Rochester, NY about eight years ago.<BR>
A college freshman ran a game of Metamorphosis Alpha, and spent the<BR>
whole game just full to bursting with a great secret. At the end of<BR>
the scenario, he reveals to us that...We Were All On Board A Starship!!<BR>
<BR>
I didn't know what to think, and neither did the other players. We all<BR>
knew about the Warden - if we didn't know Metamorphosis Alpha, we<BR>
probably wouldn't have signed up for the game - but the GM was acting as <BR>
if it was the most monumentous discovery since the twenty-sided die.<BR>
<BR>
Then I realized: he, the GM, had just gotten Metamorphosis Alpha...and<BR>
the idea of the adventurers not knowing they were on a colony ship was<BR>
so new to this man, that it blew him away. The idea was so new and<BR>
exciting to him, that it really didn't strike him that it wouldn't<BR>
be a new and amazing thing to everyone else.<BR>
<BR>
He was naive, and inexperienced. And for just a moment, I envied him.<BR>
<BR>
Then I went and crushed a bunch of opponents at a Blood Bowl<BR>
tournament, but that's another story.<BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 21:51:11 EST<BR>
From: Qstor@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Contract Law 101<BR>
<BR>
Rule in Shelly's case...Isn't that let Byron have what Byron wants? :)<BR>
<BR>
I know it has nothing to due with fee simple absolutes and remainders....:)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 22:01:01 EST<BR>
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Completely OT<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 00-03-29 06:22:04 EST, you write:<BR>
<BR>
<< Thanks. I suppose that it's obvious that I'm the type of guy who had<BR>
 the inhabitants of the "dungeon" start organizing to deal with the<BR>
 adventurers in D&D? >><BR>
<BR>
Back when I ran D&D, the party encountered a little guy with a pushcart and a <BR>
broom and a HUGE ring of keys. <BR>
<BR>
LKW<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 19:30:44 -0500<BR>
From: "Chauncey Smith" <csmith@ICDC.com><BR>
Subject: Re: beanstalks and bednobs<BR>
<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
From: Katharine Whitchurch <katts@globalfreeway.com.au><BR>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Date: Wednesday, March 29, 2000 4:18 PM<BR>
Subject: Re: beanstalks and bednobs<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>I wouldnt use in the middle of a civil war, with massive battlefleets<BR>
>blowing the crap out of everything and disrupting trade as a result as my<BR>
>standard example.<BR>
><BR>
>You might as well use the UK 1939-1944 to prove why you shouldnt rely on<BR>
>international trade to maintain your standard of living.<BR>
><BR>
>Aurtarky works a lot worse than trade.<BR>
><BR>
>Ian Whitchurch<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
But there is a big difference IMHO in traveller trade with another world<BR>
isn't always between nations. Trade between worlds is under the same system<BR>
of government but not the same planet. I see the 3i as one nation but over<BR>
alot of grown so to speak.<BR>
I live in Philly but I buy things from Jersey all the time I believe that it<BR>
would be the same in traveller. Oh it's only a jump away for parts not bad<BR>
in the grand scheme of things.<BR>
Also with larger cargo ships displacing 10000 + tons then it becomes<BR>
reasonable.<BR>
Trade in Traveller as presented in canon is equal to a cargo van delivering<BR>
to the super market. I believe in large ships and mostly regular routing of<BR>
trade.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 18:27:00 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller 3D maps and Computers at the game table<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> At 18:26 28.03.00 PST, Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>>> Absolutely true. But imagine a model with more than 50 stars... It <BR>
> wouldn't<BR>
>>> be very helpful for play, I suppose. <BR>
>><BR>
>>I think it could be useful. It'd be a real bear to *build* though.<BR>
><BR>
> 50 stars? How large do want this cube to be?<BR>
<BR>
Assuming an average of one star per unit cube (pretty dense star<BR>
cluster!) it'd be 50^(1/3) units across. Or about 3.68 units on a side.<BR>
So a cube *4* units on a side would consist of 64 "cubes". One 5 units<BR>
on a side would be 125 cubes, giving us a bit under 1 star per 2 cubes<BR>
(typical Traveller density). <BR>
<BR>
So a 10 inch cube would have stars 2-4 inches apart.<BR>
<BR>
> How would you want to use a "ruler" at the stars in the centre?<BR>
<BR>
See above. Not all that hard to manuever the "stick on a handle" into<BR>
there. <BR>
<BR>
So how about we go for a 50 cm display at 2 cm to the parsec. That's<BR>
25^3, or 15,625 "hexes". With a 50% chance per "hex" for a star, that's<BR>
over 7800 stars. It'll take a long time for the players to explore all<BR>
of that. Yet this is an area *only* 5 jumps across at J5 or J6. <BR>
<BR>
One *advantage* of this is that it makes the prevalence of<BR>
"unihabitable" planets more tolerable. It also makes it easier to<BR>
explain how "splinter cultures" were able to escape and be left alone.<BR>
<BR>
They can wilderness refuel a few times and be lost among *hundreds* of<BR>
worlds at that distance from the homeworld. And it'll be a long time<BR>
before governmental "explore all the worlds as you go" type exploration<BR>
reaches them.<BR>
<BR>
>>> So no problem there. Why don't I like the idea anyway?<BR>
>>> Conservatism?<BR>
>><BR>
>>Well, if done "wrong", they might as well be logging in from home..<BR>
><BR>
> ?<BR>
> You are planning to connect that LAN to the Internet? Why?<BR>
<BR>
Not necessarily. But I've helped run a BBS for over a decade. Used them<BR>
for almost *two* decades. And thought about linking systems over modems<BR>
since the 70s.<BR>
<BR>
They *could* just call my modem line and upload "moves" for the<BR>
equivalent of a fast PBM game.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 17:46:39 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Grav-powered floating cities II<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> -Seismic activity and heavy volcanism on an _entire_ planet? AFAIK this<BR>
> would mean that the planet is either extremely young  or close to death due<BR>
> to gravitatinal powers of neighbouring planets. (Gas giants, for example).<BR>
> Who would invest on a planet that is going to be shattered within a few<BR>
> decades? A young planet might be an explanation, tough I still believe it<BR>
> is cheaper then to build an orbital facilityand use shuttlecraft for the<BR>
> work on the planet's surface.<BR>
<BR>
On a young enough planet, there won't *be* a (solid) surface to work<BR>
on. But there ought to be some *interesting* scientific info to be<BR>
gathered, as well as a some interesting "mining" possibilities. <BR>
<BR>
> -The security issue: It is true that you can plan in some redundancy on the<BR>
> part of the grav modules. AFAIK it is also true that similar things are<BR>
> done in modern aircraft design. But AFAIK aircraft still crash from time to<BR>
> time. This might be acceptable for 200-400 passengers to happen. But an<BR>
> entire _city_? If you had an insurance company, what would you charge for<BR>
> in such a case?<BR>
<BR>
On the other hand, we've been flying only a bit under 100 years. When<BR>
we've been doing it for a couple of *thousand*, things may be<BR>
different. <BR>
<BR>
> -Psychology of the underlings (which would only be true for humans and the<BR>
> like, though this is not a problem here): A large building is much cheaper,<BR>
> and even more impressive. If you walk there, you realize how small you<BR>
> really are. A floating city will just demonstrate a distance between the<BR>
> rulers and the ruled. But it is also farer away from the ground, so if an<BR>
> underling looks at it, she will see only adot in the sky.<BR>
<BR>
Well, on some planets, there's always the "Interstellat Master Traders"<BR>
solution to revolts (from James Blish's "Cities in Flight" books). The<BR>
heroes discover (a bit late) a native song with a chorus of "IMT made<BR>
the sky fall!".<BR>
<BR>
A flying city with a strong enough keel can deal with rebels by<BR>
*landing* on them....<BR>
<BR>
> -Atmospheric coditions allowing no ground-settlements(pressure or heat):<BR>
> This is essentiallly the same problem as on a ocean world. And IMHO it will<BR>
> not occur very often. (The atm code for Traveller is D or something, IIRC...)<BR>
<BR>
Actually, "Dense, tainted" is also appropriate. Double the pressure<BR>
here on Terra, but keep the composition the same and only high<BR>
mountains would be habitable without danger of "oxygen poisoning". Yet<BR>
there wouldn't be a higher chance of fire the way there is if you raise<BR>
the *percentage* of oxygen too far.<BR>
<BR>
Poul Anderson and a couple of other authors have done stories (in<BR>
Poul's case, a *series* of stories) set on such worlds.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 18:44:06 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Drop Tanks and Trains<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>> Lower TL worlds car use other train based defenses. Late TL 4-6 can use<BR>
>> a combo of rail mounted coast defence guns and imported missile<BR>
>> launchers mounted inside fake boxcars. By TL 5-6, they can actually<BR>
>> *build* some of their own missiles (a V2 could be launched from a train<BR>
>> if they'd wanted to).<BR>
>><BR>
>> Coast defence guns and AA weapons would only be useful if the train was<BR>
>> actually *at* the town being attacked. But "ethically challenged<BR>
>> merchants" are *not* going to want to face a coast defence gun round,<BR>
>> or even something like a German 88 AA gun.<BR>
><BR>
> Nope. Not at all. Shells will get swatted out of the air by point defense.<BR>
<BR>
Not with a *merchant* PD package. Those are designed for the distances,<BR>
speeds and reaction times in *space* combat. This close to the ground,<BR>
the max range of those guns is well within "point blank" range for<BR>
space defenses.<BR>
<BR>
Now if they scammed a copy of a point defense program for an infantry<BR>
support ship and got it modified to fit their ship, things will be<BR>
different. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 21:18:02 -0600<BR>
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Grav Powered Floating Cities<BR>
<BR>
Luther Martin wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> Thing wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> > I thought that the higgs bosons where supposed to be the communicative<BR>
> > particles for mass.<BR>
> <BR>
> I thought that Bosons were associated with the weak nuclear force.<BR>
<BR>
I thought they were the guys who maintain a wet navy ship's boats....<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 07:30:34 -0600<BR>
From: Bolie Williams IV <bolie@io.com><BR>
Subject: Re: GMSound Software<BR>
<BR>
At 10:54 PM -0800 3/28/2000, Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
>In mail you write:<BR>
><BR>
>>>  Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 14:26:43 PST<BR>
>>>  From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
>>>  Subject: Re: GMSound Software<BR>
>><BR>
>>><BR>
>>>  Yes, it means they are less likely to crash, less demanding of<BR>
>>>  resources, and will run under DOS, Windows and OS/2. :-)<BR>
>>><BR>
>>>  Mac users are on their own.<BR>
>>><BR>
>><BR>
>>  Leonard!<BR>
>><BR>
>>  Can you say "Virtual PC"? Faster and more stable than the original? Thanks!<BR>
>>  I knew you could... :><BR>
><BR>
>I'm not fond of using emulators if the original is available. That's<BR>
>why I still haven't gotten around to downloading emulators for my old<BR>
>8-bit gear. :-)<BR>
><BR>
>Besides, what does "Virtual PC" *cost*? And what sort of hardware does<BR>
>it need.<BR>
<BR>
Check out www.connectix.com.  It's not too expensive and it runs pretty<BR>
well.  Most things run with no problem on it.  It is not as fast as the<BR>
Mac it runs on, of course, but it's quite usable for anything except<BR>
first person shooters or other processor intensive real-time games.<BR>
<BR>
Bolie IV<BR>
- -- <BR>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<BR>
Bolie Williams IV<BR>
bolie@io.com<BR>
http://www.io.com/~bolie/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 22:29:04 -0500<BR>
From: "J-Man" <j-man@iname.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Crossing Worlds<BR>
<BR>
Thou art most evil, Sir GM..:)   I still have Metamorphasis Alpha..I<BR>
remember first seeing it in an old magazine back in the late 70's.<BR>
___________________________________________________________<BR>
 J-Man<BR>
 ICQ# 2843475<BR>
 New Hampshire - U.S.A.<BR>
 Email : j-man@iname.com<BR>
 Home Page : http://www.gocsystems.com/<BR>
___________________________________________________________<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: "Leonard Erickson" <shadow@krypton.rain.com><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Wednesday, March 29, 2000 6:06 PM<BR>
Subject: Re: Crossing Worlds<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> Hmmm... A fiendish idea occurs to me...<BR>
><BR>
> The players discover a *huge* derelict ship drifting thru space. It's<BR>
> the USS Warden... <eg><BR>
><BR>
> (let's see how many folks are old enough to remember *that*)<BR>
><BR>
> Oh, the fun when they board it...<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 18:25:53 -0900<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Why Loren can't explain, why he can't explain<BR>
<BR>
Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com> wrote<BR>
<BR>
> I prefer to believe that Loren knows something too close to the<BR>
> truth and understands that disclosure may awaken the Elder Gods<BR>
> too soon.<BR>
<BR>
No, it it has to do with why Loren believes that the Solomani <BR>
invented the jump drive on our own.<BR>
<BR>
Loren knows that the Solomani invented the jump drive on<BR>
out own because he knows we _already_have_.<BR>
<BR>
The jump drive was invented by Einstein and others. It was<BR>
tested during WW II at the Philadelphia Naval Yard on the<BR>
USS Eldridge. Einstein thought that the jump drive was a<BR>
teleportation device. The US military had a secret plan to<BR>
use the jump drive to materialize a large allied army inside<BR>
German lines and win the war. Sadly it did not work. Since<BR>
the destroyer was obviously within the 100 diameter mark,<BR>
and since their jump drive theory was partially flawed to<BR>
begin with a misjump happened. This was known as "The Philadelphia<BR>
Experiment". The cover story was that the Navy was trying to <BR>
make the Eldridge disappear.<BR>
<BR>
When the Vilani saucer crashed at Roswell a few years later<BR>
the shadow government already had the jump drive. Einstein and<BR>
others continued to work on jump drive theory during the war<BR>
and finally perfected it in early 1945, using EINIAC to<BR>
complete jump calculations (look at Book 2 ships computer<BR>
TL's sometime) they simply could not use it from the Earths <BR>
surface. <BR>
<BR>
Fortunately at the end of the war the shadow government<BR>
acquired the Dora, a Nazi flying saucer, mounted a jump drive <BR>
in it and made several successful micro jumps in it.<BR>
Therefore the Solomani had the jump drive before they contacted<BR>
the Vilani and thus we Solomani are a major race.<BR>
<BR>
Marc Millers father was a high ranking Naval officer. Marc <BR>
found out about the jump drive, and wrote Traveller, from his <BR>
father as part of a Military propaganda program to reveal<BR>
that the truth was out there. When they worked together at<BR>
GDW Marc told Loren.<BR>
<BR>
When GDW went under Loren promised Marc that he would never<BR>
reveal any of the secrets Marc had told him. Loren (wisely) <BR>
was afraid of being silenced by MJ-12's death squads. As<BR>
part of their research into jump drive Einstein predicted<BR>
that after sing the jump drive in an area for several<BR>
thousand years it would fundamentally alter the nature of<BR>
space. This is the "true" cause of both the Empress Wave<BR>
and the Black Curtain.<BR>
<BR>
Some nay sayers claim that the Solomani are really a minor<BR>
race because Einstein, the true inventor of the jump drive, <BR>
was actually an Ancient pseudobiological robot programmed<BR>
by Grandfather into creating a rival for the Vilani. <BR>
<BR>
Many of the above facts can be easily verified in "Suppressed<BR>
Transmissions" by Kenneth Hite, published by SJG. <BR>
SJG3005	$19.95 US	ISBN 1-55634-423-6<BR>
<BR>
With apologies to Marc, Loren, Marc's father, the shadow <BR>
government, the Vilani, Einstein, everyone else at GDW, Kenneth<BR>
Hite, everyone at SJG and anyone who might take the above seriously.<BR>
<BR>
PS:	I forgot to mentioned that Patton was killed by the<BR>
shadow government because he knew about the secret. The War<BR>
office had to reveal it to him because they had selected him <BR>
to lead the first armor unit selected to materialize behind<BR>
German lines. When the experiment "failed" Patton, who was<BR>
disgusted with their failure, planned to denounce the shadow<BR>
government then operating within the War Department. As he was a<BR>
loyal soldier he was planning on waiting until the end of the<BR>
war. Therefore Patton was assasinated by the OSS under the<BR>
direction of the shadow government which was, of course, run<BR>
by J Edgar Hoover. Unfortunately J Edgar did not know that<BR>
his longtime companion Clive was really a Vilani spy.<BR>
<BR>
PPS:	Ever notice that Clive Tolson (Hoover's boyfriend), Clive<BR>
Tombaugh (discoverer of Pluto) and Clive Staples [C.S.] Lewis<BR>
(writer of the Narnia stories which included the term "Aslan")<BR>
all had the same unusual first name? Coincidence? You be the<BR>
judge....<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 22:34:29 -0500<BR>
From: "Thom Harris" <thomharr@mediaone.net><BR>
Subject: Fw: TNE Answers<BR>
<BR>
A very hearty yes from the Thom unit....<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message ----- <BR>
From: "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Wednesday, March 29, 2000 10:43 AM<BR>
Subject: TNE Answers<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> <BR>
> I need to know if it's worth pursuing. Is it?<BR>
> <BR>
> Regards<BR>
> <BR>
> MJD<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 21:56:36 -0600<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
Subject: Re: Stellar Data question-- can "habitable" worlds exist around M-V stars?<BR>
<BR>
On 03/27/00 at 11:33 PM,  "James W. Lindsay" <jlindsay@home.com> said:<BR>
<BR>
>Thankfully, TNE noticed this problem and provided a small footnote on<BR>
>page 192 beneath the "Primary Star Type and Size" table: "If a mainworld<BR>
>has already been created, and mainworld Atmosphere 4-9 or Population 8+,<BR>
>DM +5."  This shifts the table down quite a bit, with F-type stars now<BR>
>being the majority.  Judging by the data in TNE's Regency Sourcebook, GDW<BR>
>took this into account and updated the Spinward Marches sector data. <BR>
>Still, there are still a few so-called habitable worlds orbiting M3-V and<BR>
>cooler stars.<BR>
<BR>
The problem with just shifting the table is it *does* give you lot so F stars. You don't want lots of F's. What should be done is change the table to give you more K's and G's.<BR>
<BR>
>Now I know we had a lengthy discussion as to how high population, low<BR>
>tech worlds could possibly exist in hostile environments like vacuum<BR>
>worlds, but even vacuum worlds could exist within a habitable orbit to<BR>
>give life a little help.  Anyone have any suggestions as to how, for<BR>
>example, 600,000 humans could survive using TL7 technology on a 1,600 km<BR>
>diameter rock with negligible water or atmosphere (Zenopit/Jewell)--<BR>
>*outside* the habitable region of an M3-V star?  Either I have to fudge<BR>
>the data and say that this tiny rock orbits v-e-r-y close to the star, or<BR>
>come up with something else.<BR>
<BR>
>Any thoughts?<BR>
<BR>
A. Colony of exiles.  <BR>
<BR>
A couple of hundred years ago a nearby system exiled several thousand rebels to Zenopit, gave them just enough technological support to keep them going, and interdicted the system.  Years ago the interdiction was removed, but the ancestors of the exiles called Zenopit home and stayed rather than return to a world they had never known. <BR>
<BR>
The exiles were fruitful and multiplied and have grown to a population of over half a million. They have expanded thoughout much of the system, mining the belts and gas giants, but really don't have much of anything that other systems want or need. They don't have the population to develop beyond TL7 or the capital to import it, but they do have the resources to maintain their current tech level.<BR>
<BR>
B. Played out mining site.<BR>
<BR>
Zenopit was the site of a rich mining operation a few decades ago. It's population, and that of it's belts exceeded 30 million at it's height with large support operations based on the planet itself. When the ore deposits began to play out most of the miners left for richer systems and so did most of the support personnel. However, for whatever reason, some people stayed.<BR>
<BR>
As time passed the remaining population of Zenopit has leveled off at 600,000. The system isn't rich, but it is rich enough to support a population at that level, but only at TL7. It simply isn't rich enough to import higher tech, populated enough to develop higher tech on its own.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 20:00:42 -0800<BR>
From: Justice Hypercleats <eris@sierratel.com><BR>
Subject: TU spills over...<BR>
<BR>
Sometimes, it seems as if the Traveller Universe occasionally spills over<BR>
into Real Life:<BR>
<BR>
http://www.greenglow.co.uk/whatis_gg.html<BR>
<BR>
http://www.lerc.nasa.gov/WWW/bpp/<BR>
<BR>
http://www.newscientist.com/ns/970412/inbrief.html<BR>
<BR>
Or is that the other way around?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 14:11:05 +1000<BR>
From: "The Roc" <roc@kewl.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re: Why Loren can't explain, why he can't explain<BR>
<BR>
You are an evil person Peter... You do realise that Loren, or possibly Marc<BR>
will have to kill you now?<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Thursday, March 30, 2000 1:25 PM<BR>
Subject: Re: Why Loren can't explain, why he can't explain<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
> When GDW went under Loren promised Marc that he would never<BR>
> reveal any of the secrets Marc had told him. Loren (wisely)<BR>
> was afraid of being silenced by MJ-12's death squads. As<BR>
> part of their research into jump drive Einstein predicted<BR>
> that after sing the jump drive in an area for several<BR>
> thousand years it would fundamentally alter the nature of<BR>
> space. This is the "true" cause of both the Empress Wave<BR>
> and the Black Curtain.<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 19:13:02 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Grav Powered Floating Cities<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>> So CG should work the same way. It *will* take energy to raise<BR>
>> something in a gravity well, and you'll *get back* energy when you<BR>
>> lower stuff. But the only energy required to *hover* will be due to<BR>
>> losses in the equipment.<BR>
>><BR>
>> I figure that the energy required to set up a CG field may involve a<BR>
>> "pressure/volume" relationship (if you check the units, pressure<BR>
>> divided by volume has units of mass*length^2/Time^2, which is the same<BR>
>> as energy). Force per area is pressure, so maybe the energy for a CG<BR>
>> field depends on the volume of the field, the upward force exerted, and<BR>
>> the area of the max horizontal cross-section of the field.<BR>
>><BR>
>> Silly, but good enough for "hand wave" physics. :-)<BR>
><BR>
> This does make a big assumption about the nature of grav technology. I<BR>
> believe that in this discussion is the implicit assumtion of the existence<BR>
> of a "graviton" which mediates the gravitational force, so that it has the<BR>
> same look and feel of EM, in which the force is mediated by photons.<BR>
<BR>
Nope. *NONE* of the above relies on anything more than gravity being a<BR>
"force" and CG being a "counterforce". <BR>
<BR>
Gravitons imply a lot of *other* things. <BR>
<BR>
> If<BR>
> these guys exist, we can then think about the effects of graviton beams and<BR>
> other such devices. Since this stuff is not mentioned in Traveller, maybe<BR>
> its TL16+.<BR>
<BR>
It's not so much "if they exist" as it is "If *non-virtual* gravitons<BR>
can be created and controlled".<BR>
<BR>
> Using gravitons, we can probably think of some interesting effects. What<BR>
> acts like an antenna for gravitions? Mass? So maybe we can create a graviton<BR>
> wave of the resonant frequency of an object and do interesting things to it.<BR>
> Increase its weight? Decrease its weight? Cause some sort of oscillations<BR>
> which cause it damage?<BR>
<BR>
No, you've got some assumptions in the above as to gravitons acting<BR>
like photons. They *don't*. If they exist, they act quite differently.<BR>
<BR>
> I suppose that I have always assumed that grav technology is something<BR>
> different entirely.<BR>
<BR>
It probably *is*. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 19:17:45 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Grav Powered Floating Cities<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Luther Martin writes:<BR>
><BR>
>> This does make a big assumption about the nature of grav technology. I<BR>
>> believe that in this discussion is the implicit assumtion of the existence<BR>
>> of a "graviton" which mediates the gravitational force, so that it has the<BR>
>> same look and feel of EM, in which the force is mediated by photons. If<BR>
>> these guys exist, we can then think about the effects of graviton beams and<BR>
>> other such devices. Since this stuff is not mentioned in Traveller, maybe<BR>
>> its TL16+.<BR>
><BR>
> The problem is that gravitons probably do exist.  Unfortunately, unlike <BR>
> electromagnetism, which has both attractive and repulsive properties, <BR>
> gravitation only has attractive properties.<BR>
<BR>
Not necessarily. It depends on whether or not negative mass can exist. <BR>
And even if it can't, you can get repulsive effects by doing the right<BR>
(very difficult) tricks with high density matter at high speeds.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2217<BR>
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Traveller-digest      Thursday, March 30 2000      Volume 1999 : Number 2218<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Crossing Worlds<BR>
Re: OT: Organized Resistance (was Re: The ecologies of space rock s with people on them)<BR>
Re: Completely OT<BR>
Re: Coincidence? I think Not . . .<BR>
Re: McGuffin<BR>
RE: Crossing Worlds<BR>
Re: Completely OT<BR>
Re: TL<BR>
Signing off again<BR>
Re: Crossing Worlds<BR>
Semi-OT: Brisbane Game Convention<BR>
RE: Rocks with ecologies<BR>
RE: Grav Powered Floating Cities<BR>
Reclaiming, er, wastes...<BR>
Re: Drop Tanks and Trains<BR>
Re: Multimedia Traveller<BR>
Re: Filk explosion! Rhylanor<BR>
Re: GMSound Software<BR>
Re: Crossing Worlds<BR>
Re: Completely OT<BR>
Re: McGuffin<BR>
Re: Drop Tanks and Trains<BR>
Re: Crossing Worlds<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 19:21:18 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Crossing Worlds<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>> Hmmm... A fiendish idea occurs to me...<BR>
>><BR>
>> The players discover a *huge* derelict ship drifting thru space. It's<BR>
>> the USS Warden... <eg><BR>
>><BR>
>> (let's see how many folks are old enough to remember *that*)<BR>
><BR>
> I even played MA. The game system did require some serious overhauling,<BR>
> however.<BR>
><BR>
>><BR>
>> Oh, the fun when they board it...<BR>
><BR>
> Typical Traveller players, will, of course, board it wearing TL15 battle<BR>
> dress and carrying FGMP-15s.<BR>
<BR>
Check the "standard" Traveller to D&D conversion tables. Then check the<BR>
*official* GW/MA to D&D conversion tables.<BR>
<BR>
If I remember the conversions correctly, there are critters on the<BR>
Warden that can *shrug off* an FGMP shot, as well as ones who can<BR>
*claw* thru that BD...<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 19:24:37 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: OT: Organized Resistance (was Re: The ecologies of space rock s with people on them)<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> If they had been anything like my players, they would have paid the evil<BR>
> clerics for the cure spells and then, when they had more hitpoints, killed<BR>
> the clerics and taken their money back.   <BR>
<BR>
Check the level required to *have* a "cure serious" spell. And consider<BR>
that the party was less than a dozen and *badly* chewed up. They didn't<BR>
think it was worth the risk. <BR>
<BR>
In actuality, they could *probably* have survived taking on the<BR>
clerics. But if they had, they might not have made it back to town. The<BR>
encounter chances between the castle and town were lower, but the<BR>
encounters *could* be more serious. *Especially* the one that might<BR>
happen on the lake (which is not only fairsized, but has areas over 300<BR>
feet deep).<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 21:17:39 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Completely OT<BR>
<BR>
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com <GDWGAMES@aol.com><BR>
<BR>
><< Thanks. I suppose that it's obvious that I'm the type of guy who had<BR>
> the inhabitants of the "dungeon" start organizing to deal with the<BR>
> adventurers in D&D? >><BR>
><BR>
>Back when I ran D&D, the party encountered a little guy with a pushcart and<BR>
a<BR>
>broom and a HUGE ring of keys.<BR>
><BR>
>LKW<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    Didn't you put that into either Dragon, or a Judge's Guild mag?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 23:42:47 EST<BR>
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Coincidence? I think Not . . .<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 00-03-29 23:10:55 EST, you write:<BR>
<BR>
<< <BR>
 Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 18:25:53 -0900<BR>
 From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
 Subject: Re: Why Loren can't explain, why he can't explain<BR>
 <BR>
 Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com> wrote<BR>
 <BR>
 > I prefer to believe that Loren knows something too close to the<BR>
 > truth and understands that disclosure may awaken the Elder Gods<BR>
 > too soon.<BR>
 <BR>
 No, it it has to do with why Loren believes that the Solomani <BR>
 invented the jump drive on our own.<BR>
 <BR>
 Loren knows that the Solomani invented the jump drive on<BR>
 out own because he knows we _already_have_. >><BR>
<BR>
Your agonizer please. <BR>
<BR>
LKW<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 22:41:41 -0600<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
Subject: Re: McGuffin<BR>
<BR>
On 03/28/00 at 03:12 PM,  shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) said:<BR>
<BR>
>The "best" use I can think of for this would be building a sender into a<BR>
>unit that can float deep in a gas giant and allow receiver equipped ships<BR>
>to refuel from in orbit instead of having to skim. This *will* require<BR>
>some of the "workarounds" for limit 4. Or else a strongly armored<BR>
>"receiver chamber" to handle the gas feed coming in at orbital velocity<BR>
>(and slowing the ship as it does). <BR>
<BR>
What about this...put senders into a gas giant's atmosphere and the receiver on the surface of a near vacuum world. A good way to change a Very Thin atmosphere into a Thin or Standard one.  Or how about put some senders on Venus like planets and suck off the excess atmosphere...sending it to an atmosphere deficent Mars like planet in the same system.<BR>
<BR>
It's a nice McGuffin, one I'd love to spring on my players...the only problem is most of my players are on the list. ;-<<BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 20:41:06 -0800<BR>
From: "Luther Martin" <martin@ksarul.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Crossing Worlds<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> If I remember the conversions correctly, there are critters on the<BR>
> Warden that can *shrug off* an FGMP shot, as well as ones who can<BR>
> *claw* thru that BD...<BR>
<BR>
I think that you're remembering Gamma World or some other related game. Most<BR>
of the creatures in MA were relatively tame, except for poison and<BR>
radiation. These were the big killers in that game.<BR>
<BR>
I may have to dig this game out and look at it again. It's been in plastic<BR>
for quite a while, but at least I know where it is.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 20:49:42 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Ken St-Cyr <kenstcyr@cs.pdx.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Completely OT<BR>
<BR>
On Wed, 29 Mar 2000 GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Back when I ran D&D, the party encountered a little guy with a pushcart and a <BR>
> broom and a HUGE ring of keys. <BR>
<BR>
Oh, ouch.  I just ate...<BR>
<BR>
- - Ken<BR>
<BR>
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<BR>
kenstcyr@cs.pdx.edu                "That machine has got to be destroyed"<BR>
*bleat*                                                     (From Beyond)<BR>
World of the Carnelian Coast:  http://www.cs.pdx.edu/~kenstcyr/coast.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 19:53:47 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: TL<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> James Lindsay writes:<BR>
> <snipped><BR>
>>>TL7? No problem. Underground colony, mining gas ices for atmosphere and<BR>
>>>using fission plants for power supply. Won't be a very healthy population,<BR>
>>>though.<BR>
>>>Import some fusion power plants, or use big solar power plants.<BR>
>>See my other post regarding my opinions of such an undertaking at TL7, with<BR>
>>little obvious need to do so.  While it would be possible to set up such a<BR>
>>large and remote colony with only TL7 tech, it would be *hard*.  Zenopit<BR>
>>has very little to offer in return for this investment... on the surface<BR>
>>anyway.  Lanthanum mines, anyone?<BR>
><BR>
>         Is FTL travel possible at your TL 7?  Establishing a colony from a<BR>
>         STL ship that sets off from a nearby world (that presumably is at<BR>
>         TL 7, perhaps the Ancients put them there) would be very difficult<BR>
>         indeed.  It would also be hard to come up with a reason that they<BR>
>         they would try.  Of course, if they tried they would then be stuck<BR>
>         with trying to make the colony work.<BR>
<BR>
Colonies are typically at a *lower* TL than the homeworld. They'll have<BR>
higher TL gizmos, but be unable to build *or* maintain them without<BR>
imported help.<BR>
<BR>
>>I also dislike importing technology just to make the numbers work.  This<BR>
>>seems to me to be too easy of a solution.  Granted, many low tech colonies<BR>
>>might resort to doing this, but the fun is figuring out how they could do<BR>
>>it without resorting to borrowed high tech.  I never would have heard<BR>
>>Leonard's thoughts on a TL7 beanstalk, otherwise.<BR>
> <snipped><BR>
><BR>
>         What's harder to explain than the presence of low-tech worlds on<BR>
>         vacuum planets is why there are low-tech planets at all.  I expect<BR>
>         that any planet with nearby higher TL worlds would import some<BR>
>         higher-tech stuff.  At the very least, it takes a minimum TL to<BR>
>         get to the planet, so any TL 2 society on a vacuum world has had<BR>
>         at the very least the assistance of a higher-tech group.  This<BR>
>         still leaves lots of possibilities:<BR>
<BR>
Sure, but TL is *not* what can be (or has) been imported. It's what the<BR>
locals can build and maintain. <BR>
<BR>
This means that a TL 0 nomad can own a TL-9 pocket sized satellite link<BR>
telephone linked to the net of satellites off worlders maintain (for a<BR>
cut of the income from exports). No different from a *lot* of third<BR>
world countries that *use* first world technology (like satellite<BR>
phones and a satellite TV for "school" in every village) but can't<BR>
*possibly* build of maintain them without first world help.<BR>
<BR>
So the players who steal the eye of the sacred idol and fly off will<BR>
get one hell of a suprise when their air raft gets stopped just outside<BR>
the port. They figured on being off-world before the natives could get<BR>
word to the port. Instead, the village chief phone the port before they<BR>
were out of sight!<BR>
<BR>
>         1) TL Decline.  The world was colonized by a higher-tech society,<BR>
>         but TL has declined due to economic problems (cheaper low-tech<BR>
>         alternatives are used where possible), isolation (the colony is<BR>
>         too small to manufacture/maintain the TL), and/or politics (there<BR>
>         is a decision to lower TL for some other reason, perhaps religeous).<BR>
>         Note that higher-tech items may remain even once the TL has declined.<BR>
<BR>
Reasonable. After all, even TL-15 worlds import TL-16 stuff when they<BR>
have a need for it.<BR>
<BR>
>         2) Low TL Transplantees.  The world was prepared by a higher-tech<BR>
>         group (the Ancients, a Megacorp, social scientists, refugee<BR>
>         commission, etc.) who then transplanted the low-tech<BR>
>         colonists. The colonists may even have paid for<BR>
>         passage/preparation. Again, some high-tech is not out of<BR>
>         place.<BR>
<BR>
Amish, Mennonites, many other groups. They are *not* against high<BR>
technology. They are against the "distractions" it can cause. Many<BR>
Amish communities, where they don't have personal phones will have a<BR>
*very* visible phone "booth" for emergencies. If there's a serious<BR>
*reason* for the call, you go a head and make. The neighbors may ask<BR>
why you used the phone if the need wasn't obvious", but they'll accept<BR>
just about any reasonable *need*. <BR>
<BR>
On the other hand, get caught using it "frivilously" and you may have a<BR>
hard time for a while...<BR>
<BR>
>         3) Low TL Colonists.  The world has been colonized by a<BR>
>         society with just barely enough TL to get there and survive.<BR>
>         This is very difficult if they have to come from another star<BR>
>         system, but perhaps there used to be an inhabitable world in<BR>
>         the same system (they had to leave before it was<BR>
>         destroyed/rendered uninhabitable).<BR>
<BR>
Maybe this *was* the "habitable world" and they made some *serious*<BR>
ecological mistake, or industrial accident. Pick any eco-catastrophe<BR>
you like from "green" literature. <BR>
<BR>
Nasty possibility. Somebody was moving asteroids into orbit for easier<BR>
exploitation of their resources. Did a good job for a long time. Then<BR>
they made a goof. And outdid a dinosaur killer...<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 15:29:42 +1000<BR>
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au<BR>
Subject: Signing off again<BR>
<BR>
Dear Folks -<BR>
<BR>
Well, having popped my head up and had a look around, I'm going to sign off<BR>
again for a while. See you later!<BR>
<BR>
(I may still post website updates to the TML via Michael Hughes - that is, Mr<BR>
"SEC - Michael"!)<BR>
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)<BR>
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au<BR>
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"<BR>
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those<BR>
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the<BR>
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.<BR>
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 21:46:47 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Crossing Worlds<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>> If I remember the conversions correctly, there are critters on the<BR>
>> Warden that can *shrug off* an FGMP shot, as well as ones who can<BR>
>> *claw* thru that BD...<BR>
><BR>
> I think that you're remembering Gamma World or some other related game.<BR>
<BR>
Well, just consider that if you rolled the dice right a "simple human"<BR>
could have 18 hit dice!<BR>
<BR>
> Most<BR>
> of the creatures in MA were relatively tame, except for poison and<BR>
> radiation. These were the big killers in that game.<BR>
<BR>
And the disintegrators, and the.... :-)<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 16:53:02 +1000<BR>
From: "The Roc" <roc@kewl.com.au><BR>
Subject: Semi-OT: Brisbane Game Convention<BR>
<BR>
Brisbane has an up-coming game Con for the Mayday Long Weekend for those<BR>
interested.  Alas, as usual, there is no Traveller on offer at this time.  I<BR>
may offer to ref one of the games on offer, but without my Trav-stuff and<BR>
time to put things together, I won't be offering anything Traveller myself,<BR>
sadly enough.<BR>
<BR>
The Con's website is: http://www.thebigweekend.com/main.htm<BR>
<BR>
Anyone local wanting to run a Traveller game can contact my friend Keith<BR>
Done via this site and send out feelers (I mentioned once before I was asked<BR>
to run one a while back, so I still feel any offer would be welcome).<BR>
Anyone local with Traveller friends interested in running a game might like<BR>
to pass the URL onto them?<BR>
<BR>
- -- The Roc<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 18:55:12 +1200<BR>
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: Rocks with ecologies<BR>
<BR>
> On Behalf Of Damage169@cs.com<BR>
> Leonard Erickson  writes:<BR>
><BR>
> >  Thanks. I suppose that it's obvious that I'm the type of guy who had<BR>
> >  the inhabitants of the "dungeon" start organizing to deal with the<BR>
> >  adventurers in D&D?<BR>
><BR>
> Yeah, the kobolds or orcs with pikes and Molotov cocktails? Love<BR>
> the look on<BR>
> the PCs faces.<BR>
<BR>
My favourite trick was to have the orcs run away on a signal<BR>
<BR>
As expected, despite one or two miasgivings in the part of the intelligent<BR>
member of the party (the theif), the PC's followed up, straight into the<BR>
traps which the orcs had practiced very carefully at avoiding.<BR>
<BR>
Then I hit them with magic from the orcish shaman, which really suprised<BR>
them.<BR>
<BR>
Some of them even complained that it was unfair for orcs to have magic too !<BR>
<BR>
Frankie<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 19:47:05 +1200<BR>
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: Grav Powered Floating Cities<BR>
<BR>
> On Behalf Of Luther Martin<BR>
> Thing wrote:<BR>
><BR>
> > I thought that the higgs bosons where supposed to be the communicative<BR>
> > particles for mass.<BR>
><BR>
> I thought that Bosons were associated with the weak nuclear force.<BR>
<BR>
No, the Bosons are the evil, drug-selling aliens from Bosone in the<BR>
LensPersons series by A. A. "Dok" Milne.<BR>
<BR>
Frankie<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 03:45:05 EST<BR>
From: GypsyComet@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Reclaiming, er, wastes...<BR>
<BR>
>>To build up reserves, there may be port regulations requiring ships to<BR>
>>dump their "sewage" before leaving port (with exceptions for ships that<BR>
>>actually recycle the sewage rather than merely extract the water and<BR>
>>dump the rest in port). And limiting/taxing purchase of "extra"<BR>
>>food/water over and above what is "needed" for the trip. And even<BR>
>>"encouraging" a visit to the restroom before boarding ship.<BR>
><BR>
>"The Tourism Council of Heya hope you have enjoyed your visit to our<BR>
>home and reminds you that you have one last chance to make use of<BR>
>our palatially appointed 'Freshers."<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
 With the sounds of running water being the white noise of preference within <BR>
a mile of the port...<BR>
<BR>
GC<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 04:25:42 EST<BR>
From: GypsyComet@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Drop Tanks and Trains<BR>
<BR>
shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) sez:<BR>
<BR>
>> Nope. Not at all. Shells will get swatted out of the air by point defense.<BR>
><BR>
>Not with a *merchant* PD package. Those are designed for the distances,<BR>
>speeds and reaction times in *space* combat. This close to the ground,<BR>
>the max range of those guns is well within "point blank" range for<BR>
>space defenses.<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
 On the other hand, even the lowly PD system has an immense range and power <BR>
for planetary scales. Even assuming that much of the energy of the beam gets <BR>
absorbed, you may be able to stop missiles simply by overwhelming their <BR>
sensor suites. We won't even mention that the missile might be in danger, but <BR>
the launcher of that missile is likely in range (unless he's hiding over the <BR>
horizon) and a much more hittable target. Launching said missile without <BR>
sufficient jamming/stealth/fellow firers may get your entire zip code fried, <BR>
and by the PD system to boot...<BR>
<BR>
GC<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 12:25:34 +0200<BR>
From: Holger Kadlez <paradin@gmx.de><BR>
Subject: Re: Multimedia Traveller<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
<snip><BR>
<BR>
> <BR>
> I get these via the Fidonet NASA filecho. So I have the 500k animated<BR>
> GIF, which isn't half bad. A lot of the other pictures are kinda nice<BR>
> too. There's one view of a galaxy that with just a bit of editing would<BR>
> be *perfect* to show some players when they say "Ok, so we misjumped,<BR>
> what do we see?"<BR>
<BR>
ROFL<BR>
You are an evil man  ;-)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> > For you trivia buffs: What unmanned spacecraft<BR>
> > has recently performed an even closer flyby of<BR>
> > a planetary body/satellite?<BR>
> <BR>
> Mars Observer. You *can't* fly closer than impact.... :-)<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
I beg to disagree. The question was about a flyby, not a flyinto<BR>
<BR>
Tschau,<BR>
	Paradin<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 03:54:18 +0200<BR>
From: Volker Greimann <volker@greimann.de><BR>
Subject: Re: Filk explosion! Rhylanor<BR>
<BR>
At 12:00 29.03.00, you wrote:<BR>
>Rhylanor<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Damn! Now ill have to use that in my staked claim as well ;-)<BR>
<BR>
- ---<BR>
Volker A. Greimann<BR>
greimann@geocities.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 23:17:15 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: GMSound Software<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> At 10:54 PM -0800 3/28/2000, Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
>>In mail you write:<BR>
>>><BR>
>>>  Can you say "Virtual PC"? Faster and more stable than the original? <BR>
>>> Thanks!<BR>
>>>  I knew you could... :><BR>
>><BR>
>>I'm not fond of using emulators if the original is available. That's<BR>
>>why I still haven't gotten around to downloading emulators for my old<BR>
>>8-bit gear. :-)<BR>
>><BR>
>>Besides, what does "Virtual PC" *cost*? And what sort of hardware does<BR>
>>it need.<BR>
><BR>
> Check out www.connectix.com.  It's not too expensive and it runs pretty<BR>
> well.  Most things run with no problem on it.  It is not as fast as the<BR>
> Mac it runs on, of course, but it's quite usable for anything except<BR>
> first person shooters or other processor intensive real-time games.<BR>
<BR>
Thanks, but if it costs *anything*, I'll keep using the real thing. :-)<BR>
<BR>
At least until I have a need of a portable PC (so far the Macs are the<BR>
most portable systems I've got :-)<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 23:19:11 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Crossing Worlds<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Thou art most evil, Sir GM..:)   I still have Metamorphasis Alpha..I<BR>
> remember first seeing it in an old magazine back in the late 70's.<BR>
<BR>
Well, then I guess we might as well go all the way and have one of the<BR>
worlds being recontacted after the "Long Night" be "Gamma World". :-)<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 23:21:01 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Completely OT<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> In a message dated 00-03-29 06:22:04 EST, you write:<BR>
><BR>
> << Thanks. I suppose that it's obvious that I'm the type of guy who had<BR>
>  the inhabitants of the "dungeon" start organizing to deal with the<BR>
>  adventurers in D&D? >><BR>
><BR>
> Back when I ran D&D, the party encountered a little guy with a pushcart and <BR>
> a broom and a HUGE ring of keys. <BR>
<BR>
I was in a game where we burst into an oddly furnished room containing<BR>
a group of people clustered around a table. As I recall (it's been more<BR>
than 20 years) the hot-heads slew them before rest rest of us could<BR>
stop them. At which point the GM told us we vanished into nothingness.<BR>
<BR>
After all, when a PC slays the player running him, you have to expect<BR>
that sort of thing. :-)<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 23:57:15 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: McGuffin<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> On 03/28/00 at 03:12 PM,  shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) said:<BR>
><BR>
>>The "best" use I can think of for this would be building a sender into a<BR>
>>unit that can float deep in a gas giant and allow receiver equipped ships<BR>
>>to refuel from in orbit instead of having to skim. This *will* require<BR>
>>some of the "workarounds" for limit 4. Or else a strongly armored<BR>
>>"receiver chamber" to handle the gas feed coming in at orbital velocity<BR>
>>(and slowing the ship as it does). <BR>
><BR>
> What about this...put senders into a gas giant's atmosphere and the receiver <BR>
> on the surface of a near vacuum world. A good way to change a Very Thin <BR>
> atmosphere into a Thin or Standard one.  Or how about put some senders on <BR>
> Venus like planets and suck off <BR>
> the excess atmosphere...sending it to an atmosphere deficent Mars like <BR>
> planet in the same system.<BR>
<BR>
This *sounds* nice. Until you look up the average velocity of the gas<BR>
molecules at ambient temp (which is essentially the max velocity the<BR>
gas will flow thru an opening at if there's no back pressure). Multiply<BR>
that by the cross-section of the sender opening. That gives you the<BR>
flow rate. <BR>
<BR>
Compare the flow rate with the volume to be sent. It'll take a *long*<BR>
time. <BR>
<BR>
On the other hand, this *does* make for another means of running across<BR>
these gizmos. Someone (just about have to be an alien race that has<BR>
died off) actually tried this. And the units are still running.<BR>
<BR>
The players get involved when someone notes discrepancies between the<BR>
latest survey of a system and a several thousand year old Vilani<BR>
survey. <BR>
<BR>
The one planet losing atmosphere is only unusual for the rate. But the<BR>
other one *gaining* atmosphere is unheard of. <BR>
<BR>
A *thorough* survey will note some oddities in weather patterns and<BR>
eventually locate the senders and recievers.<BR>
<BR>
> It's a nice McGuffin, one I'd love to spring on my players...the only <BR>
> problem is most of my players are on the list. ;-<<BR>
<BR>
"You knew the risks when you joined..."<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 00:03:55 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Drop Tanks and Trains<BR>
<BR>
On 30 Mar 00, at 4:25, GypsyComet@aol.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) sez:<BR>
> <BR>
> >> Nope. Not at all. Shells will get swatted out of the air by point<BR>
> >> defense.<BR>
> ><BR>
> >Not with a *merchant* PD package. Those are designed for the distances,<BR>
> >speeds and reaction times in *space* combat. This close to the ground,<BR>
> >the max range of those guns is well within "point blank" range for space<BR>
> >defenses.<BR>
> ><BR>
> <BR>
>  On the other hand, even the lowly PD system has an immense range and<BR>
>  power <BR>
> for planetary scales. Even assuming that much of the energy of the beam<BR>
> gets absorbed, you may be able to stop missiles simply by overwhelming<BR>
> their sensor suites. We won't even mention that the missile might be in<BR>
> danger, but the launcher of that missile is likely in range (unless he's<BR>
> hiding over the horizon) and a much more hittable target. Launching said<BR>
> missile without sufficient jamming/stealth/fellow firers may get your<BR>
> entire zip code fried, and by the PD system to boot...<BR>
<BR>
Who said anything about using missiles? High velocity AT gun rounds and <BR>
indirect artillery fire, all at once is much more fun. If you must have <BR>
missile type toys just have about 100 guys with <BR>
RPGs/Bazookas/Panzerfausts all let go at once.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
An pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 04:00:43 -0800<BR>
From: "Jesse LaBranche" <Vanquer@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Crossing Worlds<BR>
<BR>
> Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
> >Hmmm... A fiendish idea occurs to me...<BR>
> >The players discover a *huge* derelict ship drifting thru space. It's<BR>
> >the USS Warden... <eg><BR>
> >(let's see how many folks are old enough to remember *that*)<BR>
<BR>
> I was at a game convention in Rochester, NY about eight years ago.<BR>
> A college freshman ran a game of Metamorphosis Alpha, and spent the<BR>
> whole game just full to bursting with a great secret. At the end of<BR>
> the scenario, he reveals to us that...We Were All On Board A Starship!!<BR>
> I didn't know what to think, and neither did the other players. We all<BR>
> knew about the Warden - if we didn't know Metamorphosis Alpha, we<BR>
> probably wouldn't have signed up for the game - but the GM was acting as<BR>
> if it was the most monumentous discovery since the twenty-sided die.<BR>
> Then I realized: he, the GM, had just gotten Metamorphosis Alpha...and<BR>
> the idea of the adventurers not knowing they were on a colony ship was<BR>
> so new to this man, that it blew him away. The idea was so new and<BR>
> exciting to him, that it really didn't strike him that it wouldn't<BR>
> be a new and amazing thing to everyone else.<BR>
> Walt Smith<BR>
<BR>
    Walt, that was great.  In complete opposition,  I ran the AD&D module<BR>
S3- Expedition to the Barrier Peaks for my players awhile back (with<BR>
modifications to allow it to be a cross-over game for Sci-Fi) and they<BR>
just didn't have a clue that they were on a ship.<BR>
    Did TSR release nearly identical products here?  I know that Blackmoor<BR>
and the Warden appear in both of their old worlds,  and now the module<BR>
where they're on a ship and aren't supposed to know it?<BR>
    Curiousity just got the better of me and I'm going to have to ask...<BR>
Has anyone brought TSR's various worlds into Traveller?<BR>
<BR>
Later.<BR>
<BR>
Jesse.<BR>
vanquer@email.msn.com<BR>
ICQ. 8004143<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2218<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2219</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
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Traveller-digest      Thursday, March 30 2000      Volume 1999 : Number 2219<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Multimedia Traveller<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2215<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2216<BR>
Vs: gambling<BR>
Re: Notes on building Heya<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2215<BR>
Re: Notes on building Heya<BR>
RE: Crossing Worlds<BR>
RE: Crossing Worlds<BR>
RE: Crossing Worlds<BR>
RE: TNE Answers<BR>
Re: Border crossings<BR>
RE: Crossing Worlds<BR>
Re: Border crossings<BR>
Re: Flag Stoppages<BR>
Re: Notes on building Heya<BR>
Re: MJD's TNE book proposal<BR>
Re: Grav-powered floating cities II<BR>
RE: Grav Powered Floating Cities<BR>
Electrostatic armor<BR>
Err deletion<BR>
Re: Grav-powered floating cities II<BR>
Re: Grav-powered floating cities II<BR>
RE: OT: Organized Resistance (was Re: The ecologies of space rock s with people on them)<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 04:18:37 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Multimedia Traveller<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>> too. There's one view of a galaxy that with just a bit of editing would<BR>
>> be *perfect* to show some players when they say "Ok, so we misjumped,<BR>
>> what do we see?"<BR>
><BR>
> ROFL<BR>
> You are an evil man  ;-)<BR>
<BR>
The one I was thinking of was the 2000-3-12 picture. But 2000-2-28<BR>
would work nicely also. <BR>
<BR>
There are also some lovely images. Like what I assume was a radar image<BR>
of Venus in reds, yellows and oranges. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 08:42:35 EST<BR>
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2215<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 00-03-29 19:09:29 EST, you write:<BR>
<BR>
<< Hmmm... A fiendish idea occurs to me...<BR>
 <BR>
 The players discover a *huge* derelict ship drifting thru space. It's<BR>
 the USS Warden... <eg><BR>
  >><BR>
<BR>
Sensors detect a giant turtle, with four elephants on it's back . . .<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 08:42:36 EST<BR>
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2216<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 00-03-29 20:34:51 EST, you write:<BR>
<BR>
<< Glenn said:<BR>
 >Ian Fleming's Moonraker (the book, not the movie) has an<BR>
 >excellent beginning sequence, in which M asks Bond to help him<BR>
 >stop Sir Hugo Drax's annoying cheating at bridge at M's club.<BR>
 <BR>
 Yes! And that's the only part of the original Moonraker book that I remember,<BR>
 precisely since the scene was set so well. I wonder if Ian Fleming (ex-spy) <BR>
had<BR>
 Gambling-3? >><BR>
<BR>
Dunno. I once saw James (the Amazing) Randi demonstrate he could read the <BR>
cards reflected in a drop of water on a tabletop left by a drink. That takes <BR>
sharp eyes.<BR>
<BR>
LKW<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 17:10:49 +0300<BR>
From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Jussi_Kenkkil=E4?= <Jussi.Kenkkila@helsinki.fi><BR>
Subject: Vs: gambling<BR>
<BR>
I immedialetly thought that because of extrality of Imperial starports, shouldn't there be all kinds of gambling establishments not allowed in the world main. Therefore on more restrictive (regarding gambling) planets, the starport would be filled with casinos etc. And the local gov't probably will try to use all kinds of tricks to keep it's citizens from losing their money to off-worlders running these casinos. And this could get them into trouble with the big I. <BR>
<BR>
- -J2K<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 09:12:38 -0500<BR>
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca><BR>
Subject: Re: Notes on building Heya<BR>
<BR>
Hans Rancke-Madsen writes:<BR>
>Douglas E. Berry writes:<BR>
>>You have two High Population worlds nearby, neither of which can support<BR>
>>themselves.<BR>
>A high-population world HAS to be able to support itself. The amount of<BR>
>shipping you'd need to import enough to support a billion people is<BR>
>staggering.<BR>
<BR>
	That depends on what you mean by "support itself."  To provide 1 kg<BR>
	of food per person per day to 1 billion people would require about<BR>
	40 50,000-ton merchants arriving daily.  That's a lot, and you may<BR>
	find that 800 big ships is too much for such a situation.  As an<BR>
	alternative, you might say that even though the 1 billion people<BR>
	produce 90% of their food, they can still not support themselves.<BR>
	This would call for 4 big merchants per day (about 80 total).  If<BR>
	this is still too much, you can argue that the 1 billion people<BR>
	can feed themselves from their hydroponic farms, but new organics<BR>
	are required constantly (recycling is not perfect).  Perhaps 1%<BR>
	is imported: only 4 5,000-ton ships per day are required, but the<BR>
	local hydroponics would break down eventually without the imports.<BR>
<BR>
>That's doesn't mean such a couldn't pay to import a bit of luxury food like<BR>
>grain. But they don't HAVE to.<BR>
<BR>
	Particularly if local food is very expensive.  Even in North America,<BR>
	where we produce lots of food, huge amounts are imported from around<BR>
	the world.<BR>
<BR>
>>Enope/Reginea has a population of 6 billion and a trace atmosphere, while<BR>
>>Rethe/Regina has 30 billion and no water!<BR>
>No free-standing water. Not the same as no water.<BR>
<BR>
	It's fair to say that farming is, at best, limited.  And there might<BR>
	be no water (YMMV).<BR>
<BR>
>>The subsector government would gladly subsidize a few 60,000dt bulk grain<BR>
>>haulers to insure that these worlds got some food.<BR>
>A few? One 60,000 T freighter could import about half a million dt of food<BR>
>per year (Assuming about 30,000 T cargo hold and 17 round trips per year).<BR>
>That's about seven billion liters of food unless I've made a mistake. If we<BR>
>assume that a liter of food will support one person for one day you'd need<BR>
>300 ships to keep Enope fed and 1500 to keep Rethe fed.<BR>
<BR>
	Assuming that every scrap of food is imported (see above).  I'm not<BR>
	sure that the numbers of ships indicated is prohibitive, but you<BR>
	may differ.<BR>
<BR>
>And just how much are they paying for their food? If it's anything resembling<BR>
>what it is worth, every man jack on Heya would be a millionaire.<BR>
<BR>
	I don't follow this.  Why do you think that the Heyans would all be<BR>
	rich?<BR>
<BR>
Peez<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 16:02:56 +0200<BR>
From: Holger Kadlez <paradin@gmx.de><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2215<BR>
<BR>
GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> In a message dated 00-03-29 19:09:29 EST, you write:<BR>
> <BR>
> << Hmmm... A fiendish idea occurs to me...<BR>
> <BR>
>  The players discover a *huge* derelict ship drifting thru space. It's<BR>
>  the USS Warden... <eg><BR>
>   >><BR>
> <BR>
> Sensors detect a giant turtle, with four elephants on it's back . . .<BR>
<BR>
and a deep hollow voice rings through the ship<BR>
  YOU ARE WELCOME<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 05:23:33 -0800<BR>
From: "Jesse LaBranche" <Vanquer@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Notes on building Heya<BR>
<BR>
> >And just how much are they paying for their food? If it's anything<BR>
resembling<BR>
> >what it is worth, every man jack on Heya would be a millionaire.<BR>
<BR>
> I don't follow this.  Why do you think that the Heyans would all be<BR>
> rich?<BR>
> Peez<BR>
<BR>
    I think that the original poster was saying that the Heyans would<BR>
have to be rich in order to be able to pay for the food once you<BR>
figured market value and import cost into the value of it.<BR>
<BR>
Jesse.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 09:32:38 -0500<BR>
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net><BR>
Subject: RE: Crossing Worlds<BR>
<BR>
From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
[mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Leonard<BR>
Erickson<BR>
Sent: Wednesday, March 29, 2000 6:06 PM<BR>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Crossing Worlds<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>The players discover a *huge* derelict ship drifting thru space. It's<BR>
>the USS Warden... <eg><BR>
><BR>
>(let's see how many folks are old enough to remember *that*)<BR>
><BR>
>Oh, the fun when they board it...<BR>
<BR>
The horror! The horror! Your average Traveller player would expect a<BR>
semi-realistic location and reasonably powered opponents. The Warden would<BR>
give them deadly cherry trees, Death Field Generation, De-evolution (this<BR>
one could be really fun with Vargr) and the lovely Life Leech.<BR>
<BR>
Alternately, you could have the players run into a rogue Death Machine from<BR>
Gamma World on some random planet. I remember a Dragon editorial about a<BR>
tournament that the various employees at TSR had. They took various gods<BR>
from Deities and Demigods and fought each other. James Ward had entered a<BR>
Death Machine and handily defeated all of them. :)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 09:32:39 -0500<BR>
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net><BR>
Subject: RE: Crossing Worlds<BR>
<BR>
Jesse LeBranche wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>    Walt, that was great.  In complete opposition,  I ran the AD&D module<BR>
> S3- Expedition to the Barrier Peaks for my players awhile back (with<BR>
> modifications to allow it to be a cross-over game for Sci-Fi) and they<BR>
> just didn't have a clue that they were on a ship.<BR>
>    Did TSR release nearly identical products here?  I know that Blackmoor<BR>
> and the Warden appear in both of their old worlds,  and now the module<BR>
> where they're on a ship and aren't supposed to know it?<BR>
<BR>
S3 - Expedition to the Barrier Peaks was a tournament adventure that was<BR>
used to introduce Metamorphosis Alpha to the world. It's not an accident<BR>
that the module was similar in many ways, and it's pretty much a given that<BR>
the segment of the ship that crashlanded on Greyhawk was part of the Warden.<BR>
So yes, they released products that were nearly identical in concept, but<BR>
not in specifics.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 22:43:21 -0800<BR>
From: "Antony Farrell" <Skaran@bigpond.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Crossing Worlds<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Luther<BR>
> Martin<BR>
> Sent: Wednesday, 29 March 2000 3:21 PM<BR>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> Subject: RE: Crossing Worlds<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
><BR>
> > Hmmm... A fiendish idea occurs to me...<BR>
> ><BR>
> > The players discover a *huge* derelict ship drifting thru space. It's<BR>
> > the USS Warden... <eg><BR>
> ><BR>
> > (let's see how many folks are old enough to remember *that*)<BR>
><BR>
> I even played MA. The game system did require some serious overhauling,<BR>
> however.<BR>
><BR>
> ><BR>
> > Oh, the fun when they board it...<BR>
><BR>
> Typical Traveller players, will, of course, board it wearing TL15 battle<BR>
> dress and carrying FGMP-15s.<BR>
><BR>
Hands up how many GMs let their players get hold of TL15 battledress and<BR>
FGMP-15s?<BR>
In any case the Wardens point defence system, and area defence systems must<BR>
still be working otherwide the ship is likely to have collided with<BR>
something by now.<BR>
<BR>
Note also that interfearing with a colony ship is an imperial high crime.<BR>
<BR>
Antony<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 22:43:30 -0800<BR>
From: "Antony Farrell" <Skaran@bigpond.com><BR>
Subject: RE: TNE Answers<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of MJ Dougherty<BR>
> Sent: Wednesday, 29 March 2000 7:43 AM<BR>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> Subject: TNE Answers<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> I found the recent discussion of the Black Curtain and other TNE answers<BR>
> interesting, mainly because somebody suggested Marc publish a<BR>
> book with the<BR>
> answers in it.<BR>
><BR>
> Well.<BR>
><BR>
> I have been discussing that very issue for a while, and the possibility<BR>
> exists that it may happen.<BR>
><BR>
> I mentioned this on-list a few days back and invited comment, but I must<BR>
> have been having one of my Invisible days because there was no response.<BR>
> I'll try again....<BR>
><BR>
> I'm in negotiation with a couple of e-publishers about a TNE<BR>
> novel line, and<BR>
> talking to Marc about carrying it on into the future. The Wave,<BR>
> the Curtain<BR>
> etc will feature in due course. The entire project hinges upon there being<BR>
> sufficient interest. Given the lack of response, maybe there isn't enough.<BR>
><BR>
> So: Anyone care to discuss this:<BR>
><BR>
> 1. The Answers will be found in the pages of fiction. I have a<BR>
> novel of mine<BR>
> and one by a famous Traveller author ready to go, and interest from a<BR>
> publisher. If they do OK then we should be able to carry on.<BR>
><BR>
> 2. The books will be in e-book form only.<BR>
><BR>
> I need to know if it's worth pursuing. Is it?<BR>
><BR>
> Regards<BR>
><BR>
> MJD<BR>
><BR>
> Well I'd certainly be interested, though I believe my pocket empire is<BR>
safe from the Empress Wave for the time being (Its in the Banners sector). I<BR>
would prefer a printed book however.<BR>
<BR>
I have the 2 published TNE novels, the first one was dissapointing, but the<BR>
second was well worth it, pity about the final one in the trilogy. Is it<BR>
ever likely to appear?<BR>
<BR>
Antony<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 10:41:41 EST<BR>
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Border crossings<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 3/29/00 8:28:42 AM !!!First Boot!!!, <BR>
kmhughes@dynamite.com.au writes:<BR>
<BR>
<< Is that the one where when they close the gates (each has a gate on a major<BR>
 thoroughfare with about twenty metres apart) by slamming them then do this<BR>
 hop/skip march away with barely concealed hostility? >><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Yes...<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 10:45:28 -0500<BR>
From: "Smith, Walter" <SmithW@hartwick.edu><BR>
Subject: RE: Crossing Worlds<BR>
<BR>
Antony Farrell wrote:<BR>
>Note also that interfearing with a colony ship is an imperial high crime. <BR>
<BR>
I hadn't heard this. Do they mean "interfering" as in <BR>
attacking, plundering, or otherwise performing acts of<BR>
piracy? Or does this include going out and finding<BR>
STL sleeper ships with your jump-capable starship and<BR>
"rescuing" the crew?<BR>
<BR>
Imagine the shock to a generation-ship culture, when <BR>
their long quest through the endless void is interrupted<BR>
by an FTL starship from the world they left behind.<BR>
<BR>
"Yup, you've been en route to your destination for 2000<BR>
years now. Took us a while to find you, we've had jump<BR>
drives for quite a few centuries now but we'd lost the<BR>
exact records of when your ship left and where it was<BR>
going. You still want to go to your original destination?<BR>
It's been colonized for 400 years, but they might be<BR>
able to find an island or something for you. Oh, you'll<BR>
have to leave this giant ship of yours behind, we only<BR>
have the space for people and a small piece of luggage<BR>
each. Maybe if you're lucky you can hire someone to<BR>
come out and salvage this antique of yours..."<BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 07:35:47<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Border crossings<BR>
<BR>
At 06:39 PM 3/29/2000 +0100, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Isn't that against the Imperial Rules of War?<BR>
><BR>
>The Burger as a weapon of Mass Destruction...<BR>
<BR>
No, that's the AAFES Gut Grenade.<BR>
<BR>
As every US veteran in the group immediate reaches for their Pepto-Bismol<BR>
just from rembering eating one of those monsters.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 07:43:14<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Flag Stoppages<BR>
<BR>
At 03:15 PM 3/29/2000 PST, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>I thought that's why one of the Bureau 13 books had you all driving<BR>
>across the river (state line) to some little town that exists only to<BR>
>"service" such visitors. :-)<BR>
<BR>
Phenix City, Alabama.  Great little town. I did Rocky Horror there with an<BR>
all-Army cast.<BR>
<BR>
During the 30s and 40s PC became the wickedest town in the south, since the<BR>
troops at Ft. Benning would cross the state line for all sorts of fun.<BR>
<BR>
In my day, we loved Phenix City because it was in the Central Time Zone, so<BR>
we would get off duty at 1700, shower, change, and drive across the river<BR>
and get to the bar by 1715!<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 07:47:55<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Notes on building Heya<BR>
<BR>
At 01:02 AM 3/30/2000 +0200, you wrote:<BR>
>Douglas E. Berry writes:<BR>
><BR>
>>The subsector government would gladly subsidize a few 60,000dt bulk grain<BR>
>>haulers to insure that these worlds got some food.<BR>
><BR>
>A few? One 60,000 T freighter could import about half a million dt of food<BR>
>per year (Assuming about 30,000 T cargo hold and 17 round trips per year).<BR>
>That's about seven billion liters of food unless I've made a mistake. If we<BR>
>assume that a liter of food will support one person for one day you'd need<BR>
>300 ships to keep Enope fed and 1500 to keep Rethe fed.<BR>
<BR>
I was being deliberately vague on this point.  I haven't designed the<BR>
besties yet. They might end up being 500,000dt J-3 monsters.<BR>
><BR>
>And just how much are they paying for their food? If it's anything<BR>
>resembling what it is worth, every man jack on Heya would be a millionaire.<BR>
<BR>
Well, there's that shiny starport and fleet of transports to pay off...<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 17:06:11 +0100<BR>
From: Timothy.Collinson@solent.ac.uk<BR>
Subject: Re: MJD's TNE book proposal<BR>
<BR>
>I mentioned this on-list a few days back and invited comment, but I must<BR>
>have been having one of my Invisible days because there was no response.<BR>
>I'll try again....<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
I'm afraid I've had to skip a few Digests (sacrilege I know!  I'll try and<BR>
get back to them sometime) so I probably missed it.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>I'm in negotiation with a couple of e-publishers about a TNE novel line,<BR>
and<BR>
>talking to Marc about carrying it on into the future. The Wave, the<BR>
Curtain<BR>
>etc will feature in due course. The entire project hinges upon there being<BR>
>sufficient interest. Given the lack of response, maybe there isn't enough.<BR>
<BR>
>So: Anyone care to discuss this:<BR>
<BR>
I'm interested and happy to discuss.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>1. The Answers will be found in the pages of fiction. I have a novel of<BR>
mine<BR>
>and one by a famous Traveller author ready to go, and interest from a<BR>
>publisher. If they do OK then we should be able to carry on.<BR>
<BR>
>2. The books will be in e-book form only.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
I currently still prefer a 'real' book but if an e-book is the only option,<BR>
fine - as long as I can put in my Palm (i.e. no PDF etc.).<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>I need to know if it's worth pursuing. Is it?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Apparently I wasn't the only one interested.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Are we allowed to ask the status of the collection of short stories in<BR>
honour of J. Andrew Keith?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
tc<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 18:20:44 +0200<BR>
From: Ingo Heinscher <Hiroshi.Estigarribia@gmx.de><BR>
Subject: Re: Grav-powered floating cities II<BR>
<BR>
At 15:35 29.03.00 -0700, Bruce Johnson wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>You've fallen into the 'if it's Tuesday it must be another planet'<BR>
>syndrome. Every planet is going to have a range of habitat. On Earth,<BR>
>unfortunaely, some of the most desireable is in the path of various<BR>
>natural disasters. Something like 500 million people live directly in<BR>
>the path of powerful cyclones that hit the Indian subcontinent annually. <BR>
<BR>
Isn't that also due to the fact that there few alternatives for those<BR>
people? If you could choose: live in LA or settle to a site on a planet two<BR>
jumps away where the climate and everything is similar, but without those<BR>
earthquakes. Would still be _much_ cheaper than a grav city. (Even<BR>
rebuilding the city over and over again would be, I think.)<BR>
<BR>
>> -Ocean Worlds. Even if there is no continental shelf, it might still be<BR>
>> cheaper to build an oil-platform-like structure than gravity-based floating<BR>
>> structures. On the ability to avoid vast storms: The need for energy would<BR>
>> be even larger for structures that can move at significant speeds (i.e.<BR>
>> speeds to avoid a forecast storm). Also, I would assume that a civilization<BR>
>> with both the knowledge and the capital to build floating cities should be<BR>
>> able to establish efficient whether control at a much lower price.<BR>
><BR>
>Why? Weather control, as mentioned before, is a HARD problem,<BR>
>conceivably consuming far more resources than floating a city.<BR>
<BR>
I think we would have to answer the question how expensive it is to house<BR>
some 100,000 people in a floating city. Then we can say what is cheaper or<BR>
not.<BR>
  <BR>
><sigh> Ask this question when we've been flying aircraft for a couple of<BR>
>millenia instead of just shy a century, and commercial air travel for<BR>
>far less than that.<BR>
><BR>
>Stop and think a moment. <BR>
><BR>
>Imperial engineers have been using antigrav technology since before the<BR>
>Roman arch was the pinnacle of engineering achievement.<BR>
><BR>
>A Roman engineer might well ask the same questions you're asking about<BR>
>what, to us, is a perfectly viable building technique, such as a<BR>
>suspension bridge or a curtainwall skyscraper. Better yet, put him in a<BR>
>well-built skyscraper during an earthquake...<BR>
<BR>
Well, *I* wouldn't want to be at the upper levels of any skyscraper during<BR>
an earthquake. Because I think, just as I wrote earlier, that *every*<BR>
technology can fail. It may be very unprobable, but a minimal risk that is<BR>
avoidable is a stupid one, IMHO.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
"This was not meant to be an aggresssion against the Siru Zirka. But we had<BR>
to organize our affairs a bit more efficiently. To be honest, we have had<BR>
to do this for almost 300 years by now."<BR>
unknown Terran politician, -2398 Imp<BR>
;-) ingo heinscher <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 08:39:51 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: AuricTech Shipyards <aurictech@esweeet.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Grav Powered Floating Cities<BR>
<BR>
>Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 19:47:05 +1200<BR>
>From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
>Subject: RE: Grav Powered Floating Cities<BR>
><BR>
>> On Behalf Of Luther Martin<BR>
>> Thing wrote:<BR>
>><BR>
>> > I thought that the higgs bosons where supposed to be the communicative<BR>
>> > particles for mass.<BR>
>><BR>
>> I thought that Bosons were associated with the weak nuclear force.<BR>
><BR>
>No, the Bosons are the evil, drug-selling aliens from Bosone in the<BR>
>LensPersons series by A. A. "Dok" Milne.<BR>
><BR>
Starkly astonishing tales of Winnie the Pooh?<BR>
<BR>
<<mentally picturing Tigger with a Lens>><BR>
<BR>
==<BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/colverber/travler.html<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
_____________________________________________________________<BR>
_________________________________________<BR>
eSweeet Mail - http://www.esweeet.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 18:00:16 +0300<BR>
From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Jussi_Kenkkil=E4?= <Jussi.Kenkkila@helsinki.fi><BR>
Subject: Electrostatic armor<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message ----- <BR>
From: Katharine Whitchurch <katts@globalfreeway.com.au><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Tuesday, March 28, 2000 1:44 AM<BR>
Subject: Re: Making energy weapons work in FFS2<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> But I'll get to building some TL12 tanks with ESA and Reactive armour, and<BR>
> see what sort of caliber I can slow down.<BR>
<BR>
What in the world is electrostatic armor? I've never heard of it.<BR>
<BR>
- -J2K<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 18:58:43 +0200<BR>
From: Ingo Heinscher <Hiroshi.Estigarribia@gmx.de><BR>
Subject: Err deletion<BR>
<BR>
Hi!<BR>
<BR>
My prgram crashed and took some of the mails with it that Inwanted to<BR>
answer. So some of you may want to send me their mails off-list so that I<BR>
can answer them on-list...<BR>
- -- <BR>
"This was not meant to be an aggresssion against the Siru Zirka. But we had<BR>
to organize our affairs a bit more efficiently. To be honest, we have had<BR>
to do this for almost 300 years by now."<BR>
unknown Terran politician, -2398 Imp<BR>
;-) ingo heinscher <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 12:11:52 -0500<BR>
From: "Smith, Walter" <SmithW@hartwick.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Grav-powered floating cities II<BR>
<BR>
Ingo Heinscher wrote:<BR>
>Isn't that also due to the fact that there few alternatives for those <BR>
>people? If you could choose: live in LA or settle to a site on a planet <BR>
>two jumps away where the climate and everything is similar, but without <BR>
>those earthquakes. Would still be _much_ cheaper than a grav city. (Even <BR>
>rebuilding the city over and over again would be, I think.) <BR>
<BR>
Nice site two parsecs over. That's why we moved a million people over<BR>
there 100 years ago. Whataya know, we got another million people to<BR>
find a place for...<BR>
<BR>
A floating city, given efficient grav technology and a habitable<BR>
atmosphere, might be cheaper to run than an orbital colony or a<BR>
colony on an inhospitable planet. The best spots on nearby inhabitable<BR>
planets should fill to capacity rather quickly, whether this capacity<BR>
is based on resources or politics.<BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 12:16:30 -0500<BR>
From: "Smith, Walter" <SmithW@hartwick.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Grav-powered floating cities II<BR>
<BR>
Ingo Heinscher wrote:<BR>
>Well, *I* wouldn't want to be at the upper levels of any skyscraper during <BR>
>an earthquake. Because I think, just as I wrote earlier, that *every* <BR>
>technology can fail. It may be very unprobable, but a minimal risk that is <BR>
>avoidable is a stupid one, IMHO. <BR>
<BR>
So everyone who goes skiing, boating, or bicycling is <BR>
stupid. As is everyone who takes a vacation trip, whether<BR>
by ship, plane, or car. All of these activities have<BR>
an element of risk, however minimal, that could be<BR>
avoided by staying at home and reading a book instead.<BR>
<BR>
Oh, wait, papercuts... <G><BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 10:19:15 -0700<BR>
From: Jason Postma <JasonP@i-link.net><BR>
Subject: RE: OT: Organized Resistance (was Re: The ecologies of space rock s with people on them)<BR>
<BR>
I didn't say my players are smart.  I just said that's what they would have<BR>
done.<BR>
<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com [mailto:shadow@krypton.rain.com]<BR>
Sent: Wednesday, March 29, 2000 8:25 PM<BR>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Subject: Re: OT: Organized Resistance (was Re: The ecologies of space<BR>
rock s with people on them)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> If they had been anything like my players, they would have paid the evil<BR>
> clerics for the cure spells and then, when they had more hitpoints, killed<BR>
> the clerics and taken their money back.   <BR>
<BR>
Check the level required to *have* a "cure serious" spell. And consider<BR>
that the party was less than a dozen and *badly* chewed up. They didn't<BR>
think it was worth the risk. <BR>
<BR>
In actuality, they could *probably* have survived taking on the<BR>
clerics. But if they had, they might not have made it back to town. The<BR>
encounter chances between the castle and town were lower, but the<BR>
encounters *could* be more serious. *Especially* the one that might<BR>
happen on the lake (which is not only fairsized, but has areas over 300<BR>
feet deep).<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2219<BR>
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Traveller-digest      Thursday, March 30 2000      Volume 1999 : Number 2220<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Grav mechanics(was:Re: Grav Powered Floating Cities)<BR>
Re: Grav Powered Floating Cities<BR>
Re: Multimedia Traveller<BR>
Re: Grav-powered floating cities II<BR>
Re: Grav-powered floating cities II<BR>
Re: Grav Powered Floating Cities<BR>
Re: Grav Powered Floating Cities<BR>
Primordials: MT revealed plotlines (LONG) ( =?iso-8859-1?Q?Ref=B4s?= Only)<BR>
RE: Crossing Worlds<BR>
Re: Crossing Worlds<BR>
Re: GT:Starports & Classic Reprints!<BR>
Re: Notes on building Heya<BR>
Re: First cut of a grav building<BR>
Re: GDW boardgames<BR>
Re: Re: Interesting announcement from SJGames.<BR>
re: Semi-OT: Brisbane Game Convention<BR>
Re: size of 40mm grenade warhead<BR>
OT: extra-solar planets<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 09:27:17 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Grav mechanics(was:Re: Grav Powered Floating Cities)<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erickson writes:<BR>
<BR>
> Well, since they violate conservation of energy *and* conservation of<BR>
> momentum, there's no real *point* in trying to justify them. Because<BR>
> they are flat out impossible. <BR>
> <BR>
> On the other hand CG doesn't violate any laws of physics. Neither does<BR>
> the (limited) artificial gravity inside ships.<BR>
<BR>
Actually, CG violates quite a few laws of physics, including conservation of<BR>
energy.  Assuming you could develop such a thing, a 'pressor' style of<BR>
CG (which actually presses against an object, and has nothing to do with<BR>
gravity per se) doesn't have to violate physics, but its power consumption<BR>
would be variable and frequently much higher than is given for standard CG.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 09:30:10 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Grav Powered Floating Cities<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erickson writes:<BR>
<BR>
> > The problem is that gravitons probably do exist.  Unfortunately, unlike <BR>
> > electromagnetism, which has both attractive and repulsive properties, <BR>
> > gravitation only has attractive properties.<BR>
> <BR>
> Not necessarily. It depends on whether or not negative mass can exist. <BR>
> And even if it can't, you can get repulsive effects by doing the right<BR>
> (very difficult) tricks with high density matter at high speeds.<BR>
<BR>
If negative mass exists, you can do all sorts of things that are much more<BR>
interesting than CG.  I'm not sure what type of repulsive effects you're<BR>
talking about, gravity isn't a repulsive force<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 11:27:09 -0600<BR>
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Multimedia Traveller<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erickson posted:<BR>
> <BR>
> There are also some lovely images. Like what I assume was a <BR>
> radar image<BR>
> of Venus in reds, yellows and oranges. <BR>
<BR>
I believe they are. I've also found some computer-generated<BR>
videos of the Venus photos into flybys which are just<BR>
breathtaking. One even has an audio commentary.<BR>
<BR>
Both are *huge*!<BR>
<BR>
BTW, the other probe I was thinking of in my triva<BR>
question was Galileo. It recently zoomed within 123 miles<BR>
of Io.<BR>
<BR>
Believe it or not, the Galileo mission has received a<BR>
second extension from NASA despite its taking more than<BR>
twice the radiation it was designed for. It will be<BR>
working in conjunction with the Casini probe once<BR>
Casini arrives. This will be the first time ever for<BR>
two unrelated planetary probes to work together.<BR>
<BR>
Galileo is one tough little spacecraft.<BR>
<BR>
David<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 11:31:48 -0600<BR>
From: Stormhound <stormhnd@fidnet.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Grav-powered floating cities II<BR>
<BR>
Ingo Heinscher wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Well, *I* wouldn't want to be at the upper levels of any skyscraper during<BR>
> an earthquake. Because I think, just as I wrote earlier, that *every*<BR>
> technology can fail. It may be very unprobable, but a minimal risk that is<BR>
> avoidable is a stupid one, IMHO.<BR>
<BR>
    I take it that you never drive or ride vehicles (including bicycles,<BR>
motorcycles...).  Nor walk, since pedestrians are at risk from the vehicles.<BR>
Minimal risks, easily avoidable.  (In the TU, spaceships and slidewalks certainly<BR>
carry risks.)<BR>
<BR>
    Do you also avoid the shower/bath, one of the most common sites of home<BR>
accidents?  Another easy avoidance of a minimal risk.<BR>
<BR>
    I'm surprised you use a computer...there's an easily avoidable risk of all<BR>
sorts of problems with electricity.  Not to mention the supposed radiation hazards<BR>
from the screen.  And carpal tunnel syndrome.<BR>
<BR>
    Come to think of it, what the dickens *do* you do all day, since you're busy<BR>
avoiding all those minimal risks?   ;-)<BR>
<BR>
    [The entire point being, of course, that people take all sorts of<BR>
risks...minimal and otherwise...if they perceive the reward as being sufficient to<BR>
merit them.  Just because *you* wouldn't trust the grav technology doesn't mean<BR>
other people wouldn't.]<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
Stormhound<BR>
DNRC Ombudsman for Induhvidual Affairs, Holder of Past Knowledge<BR>
Come visit my web page at http://www.fidnet.com/~stormhnd<BR>
Or my new Amateur Radio web page at http://www.qsl.net/kc0ekv<BR>
Or my JN6 course design page at http://www.fidnet.com/~stormhnd/golfpage.htm<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 10:38:13 -0700<BR>
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Grav-powered floating cities II<BR>
<BR>
Ingo Heinscher wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> At 15:35 29.03.00 -0700, Bruce Johnson wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> >You've fallen into the 'if it's Tuesday it must be another planet'<BR>
> >syndrome. Every planet is going to have a range of habitat. On Earth,<BR>
> >unfortunaely, some of the most desireable is in the path of various<BR>
> >natural disasters. Something like 500 million people live directly in<BR>
> >the path of powerful cyclones that hit the Indian subcontinent annually.<BR>
> <BR>
> Isn't that also due to the fact that there few alternatives for those<BR>
> people? <BR>
<BR>
Not really. For instance, many places in the Midwest pose little<BR>
earthquake danger, land prices and the associated cost of living are far<BR>
cheaper, but people continue to flock to California. I wonder why?<BR>
<BR>
The earthquakes (and traffic, droughts, wildfires, mudslides, and all<BR>
the other hassles of living in LA doesn't seem to be driving people<BR>
away, does it?)<BR>
<BR>
> If you could choose: live in LA or settle to a site on a planet two<BR>
> jumps away where the climate and everything is similar, but without those<BR>
> earthquakes. Would still be _much_ cheaper than a grav city. (Even<BR>
> rebuilding the city over and over again would be, I think.)<BR>
<BR>
This makes the huge assumption that there's a paradise world two jumps<BR>
yonder that somehow doesn't have plate tectonics. Given our<BR>
understanding of planetary science right now, such a world is more<BR>
likely to resemble Venus than LA. I know, I know, on a bad summer day<BR>
it's hard to tell the diff, but... ;-) Actually, probably a lot of what<BR>
makes Southern California a desireable place to live IS the plate<BR>
tectonics, which helps direct things like the Humbolt current, which<BR>
moderates the climate.<BR>
<BR>
There's an idea. Want to do weather control? Then you have to do things<BR>
like control the Gulf Stream, El Nino, The Humbolt Current, the<BR>
greenhouse effect...these are _planetary_ scale phenomena. Do you know<BR>
how many terawatts it would take to alter the temperature of the smaller<BR>
of these oceanic currents?<BR>
<BR>
> Well, *I* wouldn't want to be at the upper levels of any skyscraper during<BR>
> an earthquake. Because I think, just as I wrote earlier, that *every*<BR>
> technology can fail. It may be very unprobable, but a minimal risk that is<BR>
> avoidable is a stupid one, IMHO.<BR>
<BR>
In point of fact, riding out a quake in a properly designed skyscraper<BR>
is safer than in most buildings in a city, and would shake less. This<BR>
has been shown in several recent quakes in Southern California, and<BR>
(negatively) shown in the Kobe quake some years ago...the Japanese<BR>
engineers had ignored many things that American engineers had found out<BR>
about building behavior during earthquakes, in favor of their old<BR>
theories. Oops! Buidings fall down go boom.<BR>
<BR>
Do you have electricity in your home? Do you fly? Do you drive? All pose<BR>
non-minmal risks you would do well to avoid then. (note: far more people<BR>
die each year _driving_ to the airport than do in commercial airliner<BR>
crashes)<BR>
<BR>
Basic assumption: If you think grav cities in YTU are not probable, then<BR>
don't put them there.<BR>
<BR>
But it comes down to a matter of your suspension of disbelief comfort<BR>
zone, some of us havve larger ones than others.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Bruce Johnson<BR>
University of Arizona<BR>
College of Pharmacy<BR>
Information Technology Group<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 09:36:30 -0800<BR>
From: "Luther Martin" <martin@ksarul.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Grav Powered Floating Cities<BR>
<BR>
Anthony Jackson wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> If negative mass exists, you can do all sorts of things that are much more<BR>
> interesting than CG.  I'm not sure what type of repulsive effects you're<BR>
> talking about, gravity isn't a repulsive force<BR>
<BR>
Even if you do accept negative mass (I personally think that it's a<BR>
mathematical artifact from the sign ambiguity in a square root.), everything<BR>
I have read on the subject says that it acts pretty much (not totally) like<BR>
regular mass. It falls downward, etc. From the effects of two negative signs<BR>
cancelling each other out.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 09:48:03 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Grav Powered Floating Cities<BR>
<BR>
Luther Martin writes:<BR>
> Anthony Jackson wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> > If negative mass exists, you can do all sorts of things that are much<BR>
> > more interesting than CG.  I'm not sure what type of repulsive effects<BR>
> > you're talking about, gravity isn't a repulsive force<BR>
> <BR>
> Even if you do accept negative mass (I personally think that it's a<BR>
> mathematical artifact from the sign ambiguity in a square root.),<BR>
> everything I have read on the subject says that it acts pretty much (not<BR>
> totally) like regular mass. It falls downward, etc. From the effects of two<BR>
> negative signs cancelling each other out.<BR>
<BR>
Yes, but it does have negative weight.  Also negative inertia.  Presumably<BR>
if you mix positive and negative mass you wind up with something nearly<BR>
weightless and inertialess.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 19:37:05 +0200<BR>
From: Volker Greimann <volker@greimann.de><BR>
Subject: Primordials: MT revealed plotlines (LONG) ( =?iso-8859-1?Q?Ref=B4s?= Only)<BR>
<BR>
At 15:54 28.03.00, you wrote:<BR>
>Hyphen wrote:<BR>
><BR>
> > The "Baddies From The Core" plotline - that is, who were the <BR>
> Primordials that<BR>
> > were seen in "Knightfall".<BR>
><BR>
>Hyphen,<BR>
><BR>
>Is there any way I can get that info from you, either on list or via<BR>
>private mail? I'd love to know more about the Primordials.<BR>
<BR>
Not without violating Roger (spit) Sangers copyright...<BR>
<BR>
...so here goes:<BR>
<BR>
MTJ 4, pg. 87:<BR>
<BR>
Why did you use the Primordials as the creators of the Shimmering City in <BR>
Knightfall? It seems the Ancients make a lot more sense as the creators of <BR>
the city and having them is a lot more sense as the creators of the city <BR>
and having them as creators is a lot more fun than these "Primordeals".<BR>
<BR>
We have always felt the Ancients could be overused in Traveller, and a <BR>
little goes a long way. Plus, we have always wondered who the Ancients were <BR>
studying-havent you? Thus the Primodeals were born.<BR>
Like many things we do, the Primordeals have not been a last minute add on <BR>
to Traveller. We have been slowly orchestrating their appearance onto the <BR>
Traveller scene since we did the referees gaming kit. Other products to <BR>
include tidbits that all tie in to this story are the World Builders Manual <BR>
and the now defunct Zhodani and Kkree.<BR>
Since the demise of th Alien series will mean you will never get the last <BR>
link tying this stuff together, I will spill the beans here. This is very <BR>
secret stuff just for referees - if any players happen to read this, youll <BR>
ruin the surprise. So if you are a player rather than a referee, read at <BR>
your own risk.<BR>
Having so warned the players among you, lets talk about the Zhodani for a <BR>
moment. As you may know, they are intently interested in exploring toward <BR>
the core of the galaxy, prompted by a strange ancients device that shows <BR>
star journeys toward the galactic core. What if the Zhodani were to <BR>
ultimately discover a scourge that folows them back home? Here is the <BR>
summary of that idea, transcribed by Terry McInnes<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
S<BR>
<BR>
P<BR>
<BR>
O<BR>
<BR>
I<BR>
<BR>
L<BR>
<BR>
E<BR>
<BR>
R<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
S<BR>
<BR>
P<BR>
<BR>
A<BR>
<BR>
C<BR>
<BR>
E<BR>
<BR>
Joe, you may remember we had an extensive discussion last March of what the <BR>
Baddies from the Core might be like. Here are my recollections from this <BR>
discussion as well as some embellishments ive added in the meantime. This <BR>
is a white paper that you may use as you see fit as the MT timeline progresses.<BR>
                                                 Terry McInnes<BR>
<BR>
Why they are coming:<BR>
The Baddies are a nomadic species roaming about the galaxy, exploring, <BR>
searching, and learning. Because their psionic jump technique emits a <BR>
sparkling pattern when their vessels enter and leave jumpspace, the Baddies <BR>
become known first as the Sparklers. Of course, unknown to anyone else, the <BR>
Sparklers and the Primordeals are one in the same race. Later, once and two <BR>
are put together, everyone calls this race what they are: the Primordials.<BR>
<BR>
The Primordials never stay in any one area for long because they get bored. <BR>
Being extremely powerful psionically, almost all activity and action they <BR>
perform is done via mental manipulation rather than by physical <BR>
manipulation. Quite by accident, the the Primordials and a Zhodani Core <BR>
Expedition cross each other's path. The Primordials' interest in the <BR>
Zhodani is peaked when their massive psionic minds encounter the minor <BR>
psionic "fiddling" of the Zhodani in the area. Curious who these aliens <BR>
are, the Sparklers ultimately follow the Zhodani home back along the core <BR>
expedition corridor.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
First Encounter with Humans<BR>
The Primordials' first encounter with humans is with a Zhodani Core <BR>
Expedition advance Scout which is overwhelmed by a vast fleet of Sparkler <BR>
vessels suddenly tumbling out of jump space. The cumulative mental power of <BR>
the Primordials' collective mind accidentally kills any Zhodani who have <BR>
any psionic ability. The proletarian survivors panic and open fire, and are <BR>
themselves destroyed by the Primordials vessels' defensive fire - but not <BR>
before a jump capable message torpedo containing dispatches and recordings <BR>
of the encounter is launched by the Zhodani.<BR>
<BR>
The main Zhodani expedition fleet picks up the torpedo a week later. Its <BR>
contents cause near panic among the Supreme Commanding Council onboard the <BR>
Core Expedition fleet -the Primordials fleet was counted in excess of 500 <BR>
vessels, each with at least 100,000 tons displacement.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Primordials Physiology and Psychology<BR>
Physically, the individual Primordial does not appear significant in its <BR>
native state. Each weighs approximately 100 kilograms and appears to be <BR>
somewhat similar to a hair-oovered Terran Chambered Nautilus with a <BR>
6-legged tentacle cluster. (The first humans to board a Sparkler ship <BR>
described the hull interior to be covered with spiral-shaped fuzzy cinammon <BR>
rolls.) Primordials reproduce by budding and fission. Immature Primordials <BR>
look exactly like the kebkh, the minor race native to Deyis [I! (See the <BR>
Referee's Gaming Kit folio adventures, and the cover of World Builder's <BR>
Handbook.)<BR>
<BR>
In fact they are one in the same, since Deyis 11 is the original homeworld <BR>
of the Primordials. Immature primordials (kebkh) have no psionic potential. <BR>
For an immature Primordial to mature, the collective psionic mind of the <BR>
rest of the race is needed to trigger the maturing process. The stranded <BR>
"primordials" on Deyis lI cannot mature since there are no psionic adults <BR>
to trigger the maturing process!<BR>
<BR>
Maturing Primordials permanently attach themselves to the inner hulls of <BR>
their ships in a symbiotic relationship - the ship provides nutrients and <BR>
transportation for the entire colony, the Primordials provide the mental <BR>
energy required for the jump as well as navigational guidance and, when <BR>
necessary, the control of defensive weapon fire.<BR>
<BR>
As the Primordials grow, they develop their massive psionic ability. The <BR>
entire race is one collective mind, linked together telepathically, much as <BR>
the individual cells of a human brain are linked together electrically. The <BR>
Primordials (or perhaps The Primordial is more appropriate) are totally <BR>
aware of the entire existence of the race as well as of the supreme <BR>
objective of learning new knowledge. The death of one Primordial unit is of <BR>
no consequence. The destruction of one Primordials ship is equal to a human <BR>
receiving a minor cut. The collective mind would still exist to rebuild <BR>
itself even if only one Primordials ship remained. Mature Primordials have <BR>
an additional attribute that makes them fearsome. They are shape-shifters. <BR>
Once they have perceived the physical pattern of a living being, they can <BR>
alter their shape and coloration to exactly match this being. Their models <BR>
may be physical beings they see directly, or mental patterns they detect <BR>
telepathically from other sophonts.<BR>
<BR>
Grandfather and the Ancients knew of the existence of the psionically <BR>
gifted Primordials and were intently studying them. Grandfather suspected <BR>
they still existed and roamed the galaxy somewhere toward the center of the <BR>
galaxy. Thus, he gave the humans with the greatest psionic potential a toy <BR>
that would peak their interest in exploring toward the galactic core and he <BR>
periodically leaves his pocket universe to see how the Zhodani are coming <BR>
in their "quest." Grandfather hopes the Zhodani will someday find the <BR>
Primordials for him. Grandfather's scheme worked.<BR>
<BR>
The Primordial& Ships<BR>
<BR>
Primordial& starships are massive semi-aware biological constructs. They <BR>
were adapted from huge underground bulbous lifeforms on Deyis 11 and were <BR>
adopted as a means of habitation and protection by the original <BR>
Primordials. The Primordials' psionic abilities enabled them to levitate <BR>
these "ships" and use them to explore their world of Deyis 11. The <BR>
Primordials adapted their massive "craft-like" creatures to a vacuum <BR>
environment. Later with a biologically integrated jump grid, these <BR>
creatures were engineered into starships. Primordials' starships carry no <BR>
fuel as such. They absorb and store stellar energy from the primary star <BR>
they orbit, and use this energy for life support. The collective mind of <BR>
the on-board Primordials provides the energy, navigation, and jump guidance <BR>
to their ships. Primordial ships have displaced between 50,000 and one <BR>
million tons.<BR>
<BR>
The Sparkler Wars<BR>
<BR>
Zhodani Core Expedition quickly turned back from their core exploration and <BR>
headed for home in all possible haste. Meanwhile, the Primordials tracked <BR>
the Zhodani psionically, following them home. When the primordial f leet <BR>
was sighted inside the Zhodani Consulate, they launched a massive strike <BR>
against the Primordial& fleet. The attack was a disaster. Psionic Zhodani <BR>
died when the Zho fleet attacked the Primordial fleet, while the proles <BR>
were stunned, incapable of fighting. Over 90% of the Zhodani fleet was <BR>
lost. The Zhodani appealed to all nearby starfaring races for help against <BR>
this corn mon foe, which they believed was intent on wiping out all <BR>
sentient life.<BR>
<BR>
Other human and alien races, less psionically endowed, were less vulnerable <BR>
to the collective mind. The Primordials drive toward the center of the <BR>
Consulate was blunted by a combined counter-attack of Deneb Domain Humans, <BR>
treasure seeking Vargr from the Democracy of Greats and the Brzeh Council, <BR>
and Asian from the Spinward Marches. Paradoxically, those without psion ic <BR>
talents who were in contact with "Sparklers" were able to survive and <BR>
communicate with them. The collective mind is so powerful that only <BR>
individuals considered under normal circumstances to have no psionic power <BR>
were able to receive thoughts from the Sparklers and communicate with them <BR>
in return.<BR>
<BR>
A number of battles were fought before a non-psionic band of human <BR>
adventurers were able to board a Sparkler ship and communicate with them. <BR>
Once the group was able to do this, the fighting ceased. When the humans <BR>
and others were able to piece together the rreasons for the races <BR>
migration (and that they are the legendary Primordeals), to determine that <BR>
they had no hostile intent (fighting only in self-defense), the Primordeals <BR>
were at last able to learn about the cultures of their own home region of <BR>
the galaxy. After a few years of roaming through chartered space, the <BR>
"Sparklers" moved on to explore other, more fascinating areas of the galaxy.<BR>
                                                 Joe D. Fugate Sr.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- ---<BR>
Volker A. Greimann<BR>
greimann@geocities.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 10:47:07 -0700<BR>
From: Jason Postma <JasonP@i-link.net><BR>
Subject: RE: Crossing Worlds<BR>
<BR>
Check out R'bak (Reft/1314 B387777-3, Red zone).  The library data in the<BR>
Traveller's Digest that detailed it speak about a lost colony with unusual<BR>
life forms and psionic activities.  <BR>
<BR>
It's Pern from Anne McAfferty's various Dragon books (the star in the books<BR>
was named Rukbat, IIRC).<BR>
Not exactly the Forgotten Realms, but pretty close.<BR>
<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
From: Jesse LaBranche [mailto:Vanquer@email.msn.com]<BR>
Sent: Thursday, March 30, 2000 5:01 AM<BR>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Crossing Worlds<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
> >Hmmm... A fiendish idea occurs to me...<BR>
> >The players discover a *huge* derelict ship drifting thru space. It's<BR>
> >the USS Warden... <eg><BR>
> >(let's see how many folks are old enough to remember *that*)<BR>
<BR>
> I was at a game convention in Rochester, NY about eight years ago.<BR>
> A college freshman ran a game of Metamorphosis Alpha, and spent the<BR>
> whole game just full to bursting with a great secret. At the end of<BR>
> the scenario, he reveals to us that...We Were All On Board A Starship!!<BR>
> I didn't know what to think, and neither did the other players. We all<BR>
> knew about the Warden - if we didn't know Metamorphosis Alpha, we<BR>
> probably wouldn't have signed up for the game - but the GM was acting as<BR>
> if it was the most monumentous discovery since the twenty-sided die.<BR>
> Then I realized: he, the GM, had just gotten Metamorphosis Alpha...and<BR>
> the idea of the adventurers not knowing they were on a colony ship was<BR>
> so new to this man, that it blew him away. The idea was so new and<BR>
> exciting to him, that it really didn't strike him that it wouldn't<BR>
> be a new and amazing thing to everyone else.<BR>
> Walt Smith<BR>
<BR>
    Walt, that was great.  In complete opposition,  I ran the AD&D module<BR>
S3- Expedition to the Barrier Peaks for my players awhile back (with<BR>
modifications to allow it to be a cross-over game for Sci-Fi) and they<BR>
just didn't have a clue that they were on a ship.<BR>
    Did TSR release nearly identical products here?  I know that Blackmoor<BR>
and the Warden appear in both of their old worlds,  and now the module<BR>
where they're on a ship and aren't supposed to know it?<BR>
    Curiousity just got the better of me and I'm going to have to ask...<BR>
Has anyone brought TSR's various worlds into Traveller?<BR>
<BR>
Later.<BR>
<BR>
Jesse.<BR>
vanquer@email.msn.com<BR>
ICQ. 8004143<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 09:51:45 -0800<BR>
From: "Luther Martin" <martin@ksarul.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Crossing Worlds<BR>
<BR>
Jason Postma wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>     Curiousity just got the better of me and I'm going to have to ask...<BR>
> Has anyone brought TSR's various worlds into Traveller?<BR>
<BR>
Didn't this happen in T4? I recall one of the modules having "neutron<BR>
grenades" like you get in Gamma World. It's certainly not Traveller.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 11:03:40 -0700<BR>
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: GT:Starports & Classic Reprints!<BR>
<BR>
Steve Daniels wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> Stopped in at the local FLGS (Game Chest, Valley View Mall,<BR>
> Dallas, Tx).<BR>
> <BR>
> Long, black, sleek with a racing stripe: "Books 0-8: The Classic<BR>
> Books"  I am as happy as a little girl.  I've never even seen<BR>
> Merchant Prince or Robots before.  I am so glad MM did this.<BR>
> I'm going to buy at least one extra copy for myself and probably<BR>
> a couple for friends who would enjoy it.<BR>
> <BR>
> GT:Starports.  Another gorgeous cover! I nominate Jesse as the<BR>
> exclusive source of cover art for GT products!<BR>
<BR>
I _know_ that Jesse will take that two ways: happiness that you like his<BR>
art and a howl of anguish: "Noooooooooo Not MORE deadlines!!!" as he<BR>
grips his tablet stylus in bloody fingers, and stares at his screen<BR>
blurrily through the red-eyed caffeine poisoning... ;-)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Bruce Johnson<BR>
University of Arizona<BR>
College of Pharmacy<BR>
Information Technology Group<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 13:32:34 -0500<BR>
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca><BR>
Subject: Re: Notes on building Heya<BR>
<BR>
Jesse LaBranche writes:<BR>
>>>And just how much are they paying for their food? If it's anything<BR>
>>>resembling what it is worth, every man jack on Heya would be a<BR>
>>>millionaire.<BR>
>>I don't follow this.  Why do you think that the Heyans would all be<BR>
>>rich?<BR>
>I think that the original poster was saying that the Heyans would<BR>
>have to be rich in order to be able to pay for the food once you<BR>
>figured market value and import cost into the value of it.<BR>
<BR>
	I'm not much of an economist, but I would expect that while<BR>
	food prices would be high on the worlds that must import food,<BR>
	they would not be higher than the market could bear.  If the<BR>
	price got too high, the foodless population would emigrate or<BR>
	starve.  That being said, transport costs would only be about<BR>
	Cr 1/person-day (by CT rules).  Add a 50% markup for the<BR>
	importer and you have a high cost of living, but nobody has<BR>
	to be rich.<BR>
<BR>
	As for the Agricultural world, they are selling stuff for which<BR>
	there is a good market.  They should do well, but have no more<BR>
	rich people than any other good economy.<BR>
<BR>
Peez<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 13:34:20 EST<BR>
From: Kagehira@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: First cut of a grav building<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 3/29/00 4:09:29 PM Pacific Standard Time, <BR>
owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
> From: "Katharine Whitchurch" <katts@globalfreeway.com.au><BR>
>  Subject: First cut of a grav building<BR>
>  <BR>
<BR>
>  <BR>
>  The building can float indefinitely at 50% power output, and the battery<BR>
>  pack will maintain this for one hour if the fission plant fails. Movement<BR>
>  requires higher power output (at 1500 tons and thrust factor of 0.08, a<BR>
>  sideways thrust of 800 kN will be a thrust of about 0.5 gees, moving the<BR>
>  building at a stately 350 km per hour).<BR>
>  <BR>
>  It is built with a target mass of 1500t.<BR>
>  <BR>
>  Cost is a mere MCr 1.25, plus the cost of the rooms and ancillary<BR>
>  facilities. Thus the cost of the basic infrastructure is about KCr 60 per<BR>
>  resident - quite expensive, but not too bad for rich people at TL7 (about <BR>
10<BR>
>  years average income for a flat).<BR>
<BR>
Depends on where you live. That price would be average cost where I live now <BR>
taking the old $5 per credit there used to be (so cost would be about <BR>
$300,000 US).<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 17:53:15 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Re: GDW boardgames<BR>
<BR>
At 16:23 +0000 30/3/00, Diana Avon & Gerry Smit <avonsmit@netcom.ca> wrote:<BR>
>Am I the only guy on this list to have been lucky enough to have <BR>
>played Imperium , Dark Nebula, Fifth<BR>
>Frontier War, and Invasion Earth ???   OOOO a first for me.<BR>
<BR>
I've played Imperium and FFW, and own the other two.<BR>
<BR>
>That reminds me, I was gonna post my 2300 AD Invasion Boardgame <BR>
>rules, well more like designer's notes,<BR>
>ideas, and inspirations.  Envision Imperium like space combat, with <BR>
>FFW like troop combat, on a 2300 AD<BR>
>sector map.   Yeesh. Biggest hassle is figuring out possible ship / <BR>
>squadron counter values. It runs<BR>
>pretty big, but I'm not one to put stuff on a website. Should I post <BR>
>it in sections ? That way we can<BR>
>discuss areas of interest. (ie stellar movement, in-system movement, <BR>
>ground combat) as seperate<BR>
>sections.<BR>
<BR>
That would be interesting.<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 18:00:24 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Re: Interesting announcement from SJGames.<BR>
<BR>
At 16:23 +0000 30/3/00, "Christopher Weuve" <caw@wizard.net>  wrote:<BR>
>Okay, a few people have suggested a few backgrounds (Hamilton, Piper, and<BR>
>Saberhagen) that might fit, that I hadn't thought of, even though I have a<BR>
>passing familiarity with the material.<BR>
<BR>
Ken MacLeod - The Star Faction, The Cassini Division etc<BR>
Kim Stanley Robinson - Mars Sequence<BR>
Bruce Sterling - Schizmatrix<BR>
<BR>
All are examples of backgrounds with multiple worlds in the same <BR>
solar system. MacLeod does move towards a wormhole, but he has <BR>
different groups around.<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 18:16:54 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: re: Semi-OT: Brisbane Game Convention<BR>
<BR>
At 8:00 -0500 30/3/00,  "The Roc" <roc@kewl.com.au> wrote:<BR>
>Brisbane has an up-coming game Con for the Mayday Long Weekend for those<BR>
>interested.  Alas, as usual, there is no Traveller on offer at this time.<BR>
<BR>
I did a double take here as I thought you were planning something <BR>
with a great big hex map, vector movement and starships.<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 12:18:26 -0700<BR>
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: size of 40mm grenade warhead<BR>
<BR>
Cory Davis wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> Hi all<BR>
> <BR>
> what would be volume and weight of a 40mm grenade warhead, I'm trying to<BR>
> make a jamming grenade for G:T and I want to know how big a deceptive<BR>
> jammer I can fit into the grenade<BR>
> <BR>
> thanx<BR>
> <BR>
> Cory<BR>
> <BR>
> PS I'm thinking that the FS elephant pack PAWS is a good idea but low on<BR>
> mobility, do you think that the FS jet bike could be modified to make FS<BR>
> elephant jet skates, sure it might be hard to train your elephant but just<BR>
> think about the uses<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Ouch! Looks like FS just popped _another_ creative thinker out of the<BR>
creche!<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Bruce Johnson<BR>
University of Arizona<BR>
College of Pharmacy<BR>
Information Technology Group<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 14:31:58 -0500<BR>
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca><BR>
Subject: OT: extra-solar planets<BR>
<BR>
More long-range sensor information: Saturn-sized planets detected in other<BR>
star systems.  Reported at<BR>
<BR>
	http://spacescience.com/headlines/y2000/ast30mar_1.htm<BR>
<BR>
Peez<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2220<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2221</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
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From:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
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Traveller-digest      Thursday, March 30 2000      Volume 1999 : Number 2221<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Starports cover<BR>
Warning labels for Traveller<BR>
re : Grenades and Hi-MEM-PAWs<BR>
Re: FS Grav Tower<BR>
Re: FS Grav Tower<BR>
Re: re : Grenades and Hi-MEM-PAWs<BR>
Loren is on JTAS' Brubek's tonight<BR>
Apologies<BR>
Re: Crossing Worlds<BR>
Re: Landgrab: Cannoniacal Data on Thanber<BR>
Re: Canon data on Five Sisters/876-574?<BR>
Re: Primordials: MT revealed plotlines (LONG) ( Refs Only)<BR>
Re: Stellar Data question-- can "habitable" worlds existaround M- V  stars?<BR>
Re: can "habitable" worlds exist around M-V stars?<BR>
Re: can "habitable" worlds exist around M-V stars?<BR>
Re: Stellar Data Question -- can "habitable" worlds exist around M-V stars?<BR>
Re: can "habitable" worlds exist around M-V stars?<BR>
Re: Warning labels for Traveller<BR>
Re: Janitor<BR>
Re: Crossing Worlds<BR>
LensTiggers? (was: Re: Grav Powered Floating Cities)<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 12:12:46<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Starports cover<BR>
<BR>
Um, guys?  I lost the last message about the text on the cover.  Jesse,<BR>
could you remind me?  (Love p.27, btw.)<BR>
<BR>
Now, who was I again?<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas Berry      gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
   http://gridlore.home.mondspring.com<BR>
<BR>
"A mrgs einu sinni hluti minn systir..."<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 12:35:53 -0800<BR>
From: "Luther Martin" <martin@ksarul.com><BR>
Subject: Warning labels for Traveller<BR>
<BR>
/*<BR>
<BR>
An e-mail which I received this morning which has some small relevance to<BR>
the game of Traveller.<BR>
<BR>
*/<BR>
<BR>
WARNING: This Product Warps Space and Time in Its Vicinity.<BR>
<BR>
WARNING: This Product Attracts Every Other Piece of Matter in the universe,<BR>
Including the Products of Other Manufacturers, with a Force Proportional to<BR>
the Product of the Masses and Inversely Proportional to the Distance Between<BR>
Them.<BR>
<BR>
CAUTION: The Mass of This Product Contains the Energy Equivalent of 85<BR>
Million Tons of TNT per Net Ounce of Weight.<BR>
<BR>
HANDLE WITH EXTREME CARE: This Product Contains Minute Electrically Charged<BR>
Particles Moving at Velocities in Excess of Five Hundred Million Miles Per<BR>
Hour.<BR>
<BR>
CONSUMER NOTICE: Because of the "Uncertainty Principle," It Is Impossible<BR>
for the Consumer to Find Out at the Same Time Both Precisely Where This<BR>
Product Is and How Fast It Is Moving.<BR>
<BR>
ADVISORY: There is an Extremely Small but Nonzero Chance That, Through a<BR>
Process Know as "Tunneling," This Product May Spontaneously Disappear from<BR>
Its Present Location and Reappear at Any Random Place in the Universe,<BR>
Including Your Neighbor's Domicile. The Manufacturer Will Not Be Responsible<BR>
for Any Damages or Inconvenience That May Result.<BR>
<BR>
READ THIS BEFORE OPENING PACKAGE: According to Certain Suggested Versions of<BR>
the Grand Unified Theory, the Primary Particles Constituting this Product<BR>
May Decay to Nothingness Within the Next Four Hundred Million Years.<BR>
<BR>
THIS IS A 100% MATTER PRODUCT: In the Unlikely Event That This Merchandise<BR>
Should Contact Antimatter in Any Form, a Catastrophic Explosion Will Result.<BR>
<BR>
PUBLIC NOTICE AS REQUIRED BY LAW: Any Use of This Product, in Any Manner<BR>
Whatsoever, Will Increase the Amount of Disorder in the Universe. Although<BR>
No Liability Is Implied Herein, the Consumer Is Warned That This Process<BR>
Will Ultimately Lead to the Heat Death of the Universe.<BR>
<BR>
NOTE: The Most Fundamental Particles in This Product Are Held Together by a<BR>
"Gluing" Force About Which Little is Currently Known and Whose Adhesive<BR>
Power Can Therefore Not Be Permanently Guaranteed.<BR>
<BR>
ATTENTION: Despite Any Other Listing of Product Contents Found Hereon, the<BR>
Consumer is Advised That, in Actuality, This Product Consists Of<BR>
99.9999999999% Empty Space.<BR>
<BR>
NEW GRAND UNIFIED THEORY DISCLAIMER: The Manufacturer May Technically Be<BR>
Entitled to Claim That This Product Is TenDimensional. However, the Consumer<BR>
Is Reminded That This Confers No Legal Rights Above and Beyond Those<BR>
Applicable to Three-Dimensional Objects, Since the Seven New Dimensions Are<BR>
"Rolled Up" into Such a Small "Area" That They Cannot Be Detected.<BR>
<BR>
PLEASE NOTE: Some Quantum Physics Theories Suggest That When the Consumer Is<BR>
Not Directly Observing This Product, It May Cease to Exist or Will Exist<BR>
Only in a Vague and Undetermined State.<BR>
<BR>
COMPONENT EQUIVALENCY NOTICE: The Subatomic Particles (Electrons, Protons,<BR>
etc.) Comprising This Product Are Exactly the Same in Every Measurable<BR>
Respect as Those Used in the Products of Other Manufacturers, and No Claim<BR>
to the Contrary May Legitimately Be Expressed or Implied.<BR>
<BR>
HEALTH WARNING: Care Should Be Taken When Lifting This Product, Since Its<BR>
Mass, and Thus Its Weight, Is Dependent on Its Velocity Relative to the<BR>
User.<BR>
<BR>
IMPORTANT NOTICE TO PURCHASERS: The Entire Physical Universe, Including This<BR>
Product, May One Day Collapse Back into an Infinitesimally Small Space.<BR>
Should Another Universe Subsequently Re-emerge, the Existence of This<BR>
Product in That Universe Cannot Be Guaranteed.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 17:28:48 +1000<BR>
From: "Katharine Whitchurch" <katts@globalfreeway.com.au><BR>
Subject: re : Grenades and Hi-MEM-PAWs<BR>
<BR>
> Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 09:41:40 +1000<BR>
> From: Cory Davis <c.davis@uws.edu.au><BR>
> Subject: size of 40mm grenade warhead<BR>
><BR>
> Hi all<BR>
><BR>
> what would be volume and weight of a 40mm grenade warhead, I'm trying to<BR>
> make a jamming grenade for G:T and I want to know how big a deceptive<BR>
> jammer I can fit into the grenade<BR>
<BR>
About 2-600 grams, depending on TL, whether it's rocket assisted and stuff.<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
> thanx<BR>
><BR>
> Cory<BR>
><BR>
> PS I'm thinking that the FS elephant pack PAWS is a good idea but low on<BR>
> mobility, do you think that the FS jet bike could be modified to make FS<BR>
> elephant jet skates, sure it might be hard to train your elephant but just<BR>
> think about the uses<BR>
<BR>
You, sir, are a sick, sick, sick, sick man.<BR>
<BR>
There are some people from Personell who want to sign you up as a tester for<BR>
the High-Mobility EM-PAWs (Hi-MEM-PAWs).<BR>
<BR>
Ian Whitchurch<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 17:37:00 +1000<BR>
From: "Katharine Whitchurch" <katts@globalfreeway.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re: FS Grav Tower<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
> Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 17:38:17 -0600<BR>
> From: Stormhound <stormhnd@fidnet.com><BR>
> Subject: Re: First cut of a grav building<BR>
><BR>
> Katharine Whitchurch wrote:<BR>
><BR>
> > This is the first cut of the Famile Spofulam Grav Tower. It is built at<BR>
TL9,<BR>
> > for the Export Market.<BR>
><BR>
>     I knew we could count on ya. (g)<BR>
><BR>
> > 200 Large Staterooms 11200 m3, 800t, MCr 10 (?? should be lower, as<BR>
these<BR>
> > dont have to be built to space standards - no iris valves etc. With 3m<BR>
> > ceilings, this puts about 15 layers of rooms in the building. Thus with<BR>
4<BR>
> > rooms on each side, everybody gets a view)<BR>
><BR>
>     Don't *have* to be is the key.  You still could, particularly for use<BR>
in<BR>
> atmospheres with problems...so that one nut cracking a window wouldn't<BR>
wipe out<BR>
> the whole place.<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
True. You'd want to actually add life support in those cases too.<BR>
<BR>
> > moving the building at a stately 350 km per hour).<BR>
><BR>
>     ROFL...only FS would refer to that as "stately".  Actually, would any<BR>
sort<BR>
> of compensators be required for the horizontal vector?  I'd hate to be in<BR>
the<BR>
> place if it tipped over...(g)<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
True. Note that there is actually redundancy in most of the systems (battery<BR>
pack to back up the fission plant, 2 computers etc). Unusual for FS, huh ...<BR>
<BR>
> > The views will be, frankly, spectacular.<BR>
><BR>
>     Especially at flank speed. (g)  I like!  And if you set up the<BR>
dwellings on<BR>
> a mortgage basis, it'd be easily affordable.  Let's hear it for the FS<BR>
> Grav-Condo! (g)<BR>
<BR>
Thank you. It isn't really finished (it needs lifts and toilets and stuff<BR>
like that), but it's close enough for a GM to say "The hotel you're booked<BR>
into looks like *this*", and holds up Jesse's drawing of the Grav Tower<BR>
(*hint*).<BR>
<BR>
Ian Whitchurch<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 14:30:23 -0700<BR>
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: FS Grav Tower<BR>
<BR>
Katharine Whitchurch wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
> Thank you. It isn't really finished (it needs lifts and toilets and stuff<BR>
> like that), but it's close enough for a GM to say "The hotel you're booked<BR>
> into looks like *this*", and holds up Jesse's drawing of the Grav Tower<BR>
> (*hint*).<BR>
> <BR>
> Ian Whitchurch<BR>
<BR>
You know, it really isn't truly an FS product until there's a 6G version<BR>
;-)<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Bruce Johnson<BR>
University of Arizona<BR>
College of Pharmacy<BR>
Information Technology Group<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 14:32:33 -0700<BR>
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: re : Grenades and Hi-MEM-PAWs<BR>
<BR>
Katharine Whitchurch wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
> There are some people from Personell who want to sign you up as a tester for<BR>
> the High-Mobility EM-PAWs (Hi-MEM-PAWs).<BR>
> <BR>
> Ian Whitchurch<BR>
<BR>
SSSSPPEEEEEWWWWWWWW!!!!!!!!<BR>
<BR>
Confirmed Keyboard Overkill!<BR>
<BR>
Arrrrggghhh! Badm baaad pun!<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Bruce Johnson<BR>
University of Arizona<BR>
College of Pharmacy<BR>
Information Technology Group<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 22:41:35 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Loren is on JTAS' Brubek's tonight<BR>
<BR>
Hi all,<BR>
<BR>
Just a reminder that Loren is on Brubek's at JTAS tonight talking <BR>
about SJ Games future Traveller releases (?). I may see some of you <BR>
there before if the time gap doesn't get me (it's 2245 here, 1545 at <BR>
JTAS as I write).<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 22:48:50 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Apologies<BR>
<BR>
Please disregard:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Re: Interesting announcement from SJGames.<BR>
Re: GDW boardgames<BR>
<BR>
as I misposted them.<BR>
<BR>
Sorry,<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 22:46:30 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Crossing Worlds<BR>
<BR>
At 14:31 -0500 30/3/00, "Luther Martin" <martin@ksarul.com> wrote:<BR>
> >     Curiousity just got the better of me and I'm going to have to ask...<BR>
> > Has anyone brought TSR's various worlds into Traveller?<BR>
><BR>
>Didn't this happen in T4? I recall one of the modules having "neutron<BR>
>grenades" like you get in Gamma World. It's certainly not Traveller.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Probably James Ward's lousy adventure called 'the Annilik Run'.<BR>
<BR>
This has no bearing on the proposal of the same name suggested by <BR>
CORE to IG, who butchered it to make D&D in space.<BR>
<BR>
More on this later.<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 14:12:31 -0800<BR>
From: "James W. Lindsay" <jlindsay@home.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Landgrab: Cannoniacal Data on Thanber<BR>
<BR>
On Wed, 29 Mar 2000 16:14:24 PST, Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> In mail you write:<BR>
> <BR>
> > On Tue, 28 Mar 2000 18:01:28 PST, Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
> ><BR>
> >> In mail you write:<BR>
> >> <BR>
> >> > I'm doing Thanber (0717/Querion) for the landgrab.  I have BTC and the <BR>
> > T:NE<BR>
> >> > Regency Sourcebook, but I don't have the Traveller Adventure, Fifth <BR>
> > Frontier<BR>
> >> > War, or the original SM book.  Anyone know if there are any refrences to<BR>
> >> > Thanber in any of those sources?<BR>
> >> <BR>
> >> SMC<BR>
> >> Thanber<BR>
> >> hex  UPP       notes  PBG   star1  star2<BR>
> >> ---- --------- ------ ---   -----  -----<BR>
> >> 0717 B243653-C nIn Po 210Cs M9 V   M1 D<BR>
>          ^size *2*<BR>
> <BR>
> > The only thing that I have to add is that the actual asteroid belt that<BR>
> > "is" Thanber<BR>
> <BR>
> Excuse me? See above. Thanber is a size 2 world, not a belt (size 0).<BR>
<BR>
My mistake.  I misread my own notes.  I meant to refer to the "1" in the<BR>
PBG code, not Thanber itself.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
James W. Lindsay             Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada<BR>
Website: http://members.home.net/jlindsay          ICQ: #7521644<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
Stand on the toilet, get high on pot.<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 14:12:33 -0800<BR>
From: "James W. Lindsay" <jlindsay@home.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Canon data on Five Sisters/876-574?<BR>
<BR>
On Wed, 29 Mar 2000 18:13:38 EST, Qstor@aol.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Is there anything in the TNE or MT books? I don't own those.<BR>
<BR>
Nothing in the Regency Sourcebook.  The "numbers" I have match those in the<BR>
CT material (including stellar data).  Judging by the BtC write-up, I can<BR>
see your interest in 876-574 ;)<BR>
<BR>
Looks like you're free to develop this world however you see fit without<BR>
contradicting published material :D<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
James W. Lindsay             Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada<BR>
Website: http://members.home.net/jlindsay          ICQ: #7521644<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
Stand on the toilet, get high on pot.<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 14:12:34 -0800<BR>
From: "James W. Lindsay" <jlindsay@home.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Primordials: MT revealed plotlines (LONG) ( Refs Only)<BR>
<BR>
On Thu, 30 Mar 2000 19:37:05 +0200, Volker Greimann wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> At 15:54 28.03.00, you wrote:<BR>
> >Hyphen wrote:<BR>
> ><BR>
> > > The "Baddies From The Core" plotline - that is, who were the <BR>
> > Primordials that<BR>
> > > were seen in "Knightfall".<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
[BIG snip]<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Thankyou!Thankyou!Thankyou!Thankyou!Thankyou!Thankyou!Thankyou!Thankyou!<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
James W. Lindsay             Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada<BR>
Website: http://members.home.net/jlindsay          ICQ: #7521644<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
Stand on the toilet, get high on pot.<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 14:12:38 -0800<BR>
From: "James W. Lindsay" <jlindsay@home.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Stellar Data question-- can "habitable" worlds existaround M- V  stars?<BR>
<BR>
On Wed, 29 Mar 2000 14:11:34 -0600, Mulroy, Alan T wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> <BR>
> > > Of course, one would have to find an explanation why they ever moved<BR>
> there...<BR>
> > <BR>
> > They diddn't. But some of their enterprising ancestors did, some <BR>
> > (potentially long) time ago, maybe during or, even better, before <BR>
> > the long night. The following generations were just unable to uphold <BR>
> > their TL, for whatever reasons. Hard Times or Survival margin might<BR>
> > prove helpfull.<BR>
> <BR>
> Ooooh, I hate this excuse :)  If this were true for so many low tech, high<BR>
> population, inhospitable worlds, it might suggest that nearly *every* star<BR>
> system was colonized prior to the Long Night.  IOW, all those worlds with<BR>
> zero populations and X-class starports circa 1110 were the Long Night<BR>
> colonies that failed, while the rest of those world types still with<BR>
> populations are only "failing".<BR>
> <BR>
> IOW, while it might be ok to use the Long Night collapse idea on a few<BR>
> worlds, it kinda loses its appeal if you start using it as an excuse for<BR>
> every populated TL2 vacuum world :)<BR>
> <BR>
> How about a Penal colony?<BR>
<BR>
Better :)  Some native northwestern Indian tribes used to "banish" their<BR>
criminals to remote islands where they were to live off of the land with<BR>
little additional help (shelter was sometimes provided), until such a time<BR>
as their sentence was lifted and they were returned to the tribe.  One<BR>
local "tribe" did this with a few youths just a few years ago, IIRC.  I<BR>
think the lesson was that you don't prey on the community that takes care<BR>
of you.<BR>
<BR>
PS: The only excuse I hate more than the "failing Long Night colony" excuse<BR>
is the "surviving using failing Ancient tech" excuse :)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
James W. Lindsay             Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada<BR>
Website: http://members.home.net/jlindsay          ICQ: #7521644<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
Stand on the toilet, get high on pot.<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 14:12:39 -0800<BR>
From: "James W. Lindsay" <jlindsay@home.com><BR>
Subject: Re: can "habitable" worlds exist around M-V stars?<BR>
<BR>
On Tue, 28 Mar 2000 11:17:01 -0500, Ian Ferguson wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> James Lindsay writes:<BR>
> >This question has always bothered me, ever since Book 6: Scouts came out.<BR>
> >The tables in Book 6 show that a large majority of stars generated using<BR>
> >this system are M-type stars with a luminescent class of V.  According to<BR>
> >the orbit zone table for class V stars, only M0-type stars have any hope of<BR>
> >having a habitable orbit.<BR>
> <snipped><BR>
> >Thankfully, TNE noticed this problem and provided a small footnote on page<BR>
> >192 beneath the "Primary Star Type and Size" table:<BR>
> <snipped><BR>
> >This shifts the table down quite a bit, with F-type stars now being<BR>
> the majority.<BR>
> <snipped><BR>
> <BR>
> 	The inflated number of F-type stars may be unrealistic (does somebody<BR>
> 	know the relative abundance that we should find?), but then the<BR>
> 	frequency of Atm 2-9 is probably unrealistic also.<BR>
<BR>
In GDW's refined data (aka: Regency Sourcebook), most of the changes were<BR>
to shift most of the more commonly occurring M3+ main sequence stars to M0<BR>
stars, thereby giving them a habitable zone according to the expanded star<BR>
system generation rules.  The modifier I mentioned above only applies when<BR>
calculating the star's size and luminosity for worlds with an Atmosphere of<BR>
4-9 or a Population of 8+ *that already exist*.  If you were making up a<BR>
star system from scratch, you'd ignore this modifier and create the star(s)<BR>
first-- and *then* see if a habitable zone was present and if a planet<BR>
existed in that zone (which is how the original CT data should have been<BR>
generated in the first place).<BR>
<BR>
> >Now I know we had a lengthy discussion as to how high population, low tech<BR>
> >worlds could possibly exist in hostile environments like vacuum worlds, but<BR>
> >even vacuum worlds could exist within a habitable orbit to give life a<BR>
> >little help.<BR>
> <BR>
> 	I'm not sure that being in the "habitable zone" will help you all that<BR>
> 	much if you are on a vacuum world.  Sure, the heat/cold will be a<BR>
> 	problem if you are in the inner/outer zones, but living on an airless<BR>
> 	world would seem to be the biggest challenge.<BR>
<BR>
I believe the rules for "mainworld placement" prefer you to place worlds<BR>
within the habitable zone-- unless the world is a vacuum world (where it<BR>
could be placed almost anywhere).<BR>
<BR>
> >Anyone have any suggestions as to how, for example, 600,000<BR>
> >humans could survive using TL7 technology on a 1,600 km diameter rock with<BR>
> >negligible water or atmosphere (Zenopit/Jewell)-- *outside* the habitable<BR>
> >region of an M3-V star?  Either I have to fudge the data and say that this<BR>
> >tiny rock orbits v-e-r-y close to the star, or come up with something else.<BR>
> >Any thoughts?<BR>
> <BR>
> 	Are you using CT TLs?  At TL 7 in CT, survival on such a planet should<BR>
> 	not be a big problem: fission power using cheap (locally produced)<BR>
> 	fuel, an economy based on export of fissionables (Ni classification),<BR>
> 	H20 and air largely from ice found insystem (belters), careful<BR>
> 	recycling (what are the government type and law level?), hydroponics<BR>
> 	provide some food but much is imported (Na classification, IIRC).<BR>
<BR>
Granted, TL7 would be enough to survive on such a world.  My "problem" is<BR>
that TL7 might not be enough to *create* that settlement.  Others have<BR>
already given excellent possibilities, like contracted construction, a<BR>
penal colony for a higher tech neighbour, etc.  I just don't particularly<BR>
like the "pre Long Night" colony theory with its tidy "TL reduction" idea.<BR>
I would prefer to use that "excuse" for the truly unusual worlds, like<BR>
Rethe.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
James W. Lindsay             Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada<BR>
Website: http://members.home.net/jlindsay          ICQ: #7521644<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
Stand on the toilet, get high on pot.<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 14:12:41 -0800<BR>
From: "James W. Lindsay" <jlindsay@home.com><BR>
Subject: Re: can "habitable" worlds exist around M-V stars?<BR>
<BR>
On Tue, 28 Mar 2000 09:35:42 -0800 (PST), Anthony Jackson wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> > >Anyone have any suggestions as to how, for example, 600,000<BR>
> > >humans could survive using TL7 technology on a 1,600 km diameter rock with<BR>
> > >negligible water or atmosphere (Zenopit/Jewell)-- *outside* the habitable<BR>
> > >region of an M3-V star?  Either I have to fudge the data and say that this<BR>
> > >tiny rock orbits v-e-r-y close to the star, or come up with something<BR>
> > >else. Any thoughts?<BR>
> <BR>
> Now don't limit yourself.  Enope has 6 billion people on a size-4 rock with<BR>
> trace atmosphere and water, at TL 6.<BR>
<BR>
Not improbable, really.  The main problem of finding surface water isn't an<BR>
issue here, although the trace atmosphere technically requires vacc suits<BR>
for outdoor activity.  TL6 supports early fission power.<BR>
<BR>
> Rethe has 30 billion people on a <BR>
> size-2 rock with a very thin atmosphere and no water, at TL 8.<BR>
<BR>
Rethe is truly a special case, and this is one that I have no problem using<BR>
the "pre-Long Night (high tech) colony" excuse for.  I can't see any other<BR>
way.  Luckily, a very thin atmosphere still allows for outdoor activity<BR>
with nothing more than a personal respirator for outdoor activities.<BR>
<BR>
> Tsarina has<BR>
> 3 million people on a rockball with very thin atmosphere and no water, at<BR>
> TL 5.<BR>
<BR>
TL5 would be harder to explain...<BR>
<BR>
> Any one of those is probably worse than Zenopit.<BR>
<BR>
True :)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
James W. Lindsay             Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada<BR>
Website: http://members.home.net/jlindsay          ICQ: #7521644<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
Stand on the toilet, get high on pot.<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 14:12:42 -0800<BR>
From: "James W. Lindsay" <jlindsay@home.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Stellar Data Question -- can "habitable" worlds exist around M-V stars?<BR>
<BR>
On Wed, 29 Mar 2000 20:29:36 EST, Damage169@cs.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> >  That's the tricky part.  I dislike falling back on the old "they were high<BR>
> >  tech prior to the Long Night and the colony is barely surviving now" idea.<BR>
> <BR>
> Okay, how's this: These 600,000 people are the descendants of a bootstrap <BR>
> mining colony from one of the other moderately mid-tech systems nearby. The <BR>
> motherworld got an Imperial loan to help improve their industrial base, part <BR>
> of which they used to finance this colony as a fairly reliable source of raw <BR>
> materials. They hire/request an Imperial Army Corps of Engineers unit to <BR>
> tunnel out the original caverns for habitation and life support, following <BR>
> Leonard Erickson's excellent advice, but use technology they know and can <BR>
> keep in repair (TL 8-constructed versions of TL 6 equipment would be <BR>
> incredibly durable, allowing the colony to get their industrial feet under <BR>
> them before having to worry about failing equipment). After several hundred <BR>
> years, the resource colony has enough population and industrial capability to <BR>
> set out on their own, even improving their basic tech level to TL 7.<BR>
> <BR>
> Good enough?<BR>
<BR>
Ex-cellent!  Maybe I should switch my landgrab claim to Zenopit instead of<BR>
Arden.  Nah, but this stuff might prove useful to explain why the<BR>
Federation later claimed this world.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
James W. Lindsay             Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada<BR>
Website: http://members.home.net/jlindsay          ICQ: #7521644<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
Stand on the toilet, get high on pot.<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 14:19:38 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
Subject: Re: can "habitable" worlds exist around M-V stars?<BR>
<BR>
James W. Lindsay writes:<BR>
> > Now don't limit yourself.  Enope has 6 billion people on a size-4 rock<BR>
> > with trace atmosphere and water, at TL 6.<BR>
> <BR>
> Not improbable, really.  The main problem of finding surface water isn't an<BR>
> issue here, although the trace atmosphere technically requires vacc suits<BR>
> for outdoor activity.  TL6 supports early fission power.<BR>
<BR>
TL 6 would have trouble supporting 6 billion people on an earthlike world...<BR>
> <BR>
> > Rethe has 30 billion people on a <BR>
> > size-2 rock with a very thin atmosphere and no water, at TL 8.<BR>
> <BR>
> Rethe is truly a special case, and this is one that I have no problem using<BR>
> the "pre-Long Night (high tech) colony" excuse for.  I can't see any other<BR>
> way.  Luckily, a very thin atmosphere still allows for outdoor activity<BR>
> with nothing more than a personal respirator for outdoor activities.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 18:30:15 -0400<BR>
From: Brian Quirt <baqrt@mta.ca><BR>
Subject: Re: Warning labels for Traveller<BR>
<BR>
This is quite good, especially this one:<BR>
<BR>
Luther Martin wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> WARNING: This Product Attracts Every Other Piece of Matter in the universe,<BR>
> Including the Products of Other Manufacturers, with a Force Proportional to<BR>
> the Product of the Masses and Inversely Proportional to the Distance Between<BR>
> Them.<BR>
<BR>
I think this should be "the square of the distance between them." If you<BR>
can find something that attracts other masses with a force "inversely<BR>
proportional to the distance between them" I'd like to see it....<BR>
<BR>
- -Brian Quirt<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 17:45:06 EST<BR>
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Janitor<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 00-03-30 08:02:46 EST, you write:<BR>
<BR>
<< ><< Thanks. I suppose that it's obvious that I'm the type of guy who had<BR>
 > the inhabitants of the "dungeon" start organizing to deal with the<BR>
 > adventurers in D&D? >><BR>
 ><BR>
 >Back when I ran D&D, the party encountered a little guy with a pushcart and<BR>
 a<BR>
 >broom and a HUGE ring of keys.<BR>
 ><BR>
 >LKW<BR>
 <BR>
 <BR>
     Didn't you put that into either Dragon, or a Judge's Guild mag? >><BR>
<BR>
Maybe -- it has been nearly 20 years and I don't remember.<BR>
<BR>
LKW<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 17:00:30 -0600<BR>
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Crossing Worlds<BR>
<BR>
Jesse LaBranche wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
<<snip>><BR>
<BR>
>     Curiousity just got the better of me and I'm going to have to ask...<BR>
> Has anyone brought TSR's various worlds into Traveller?<BR>
<BR>
Not quite.  However, I _did_ once have a Type S land on my AD&D world<BR>
(my players at the time having also been introduced to Traveller).  The<BR>
crew of the Type S was _more_ than happy to sell a couple of laser<BR>
rifles to the PCs, at merely 1000 GP each.  (Bear in mind that the AD&D1<BR>
encumbrance standard is the gold piece, at 10 GP to the _pound_, and<BR>
you'll understand the travellers' enthusiasm.)  As the players knew that<BR>
a laser rifle did 5D6 damage, and only needed to hit AC 10 (less magic<BR>
bonuses to AC), the PCs were also pleased.<BR>
<BR>
At least the travellers were honest enough to provide fully-charged<BR>
power packs, and rudimentary weapons training.  Of course, this merely<BR>
postponed the tragic day when the power packs ran dry....<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 17:06:36 -0600<BR>
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: LensTiggers? (was: Re: Grav Powered Floating Cities)<BR>
<BR>
AuricTech Shipyards wrote:<BR>
<BR>
<<snip>><BR>
> ><BR>
> >No, the Bosons are the evil, drug-selling aliens from Bosone in the<BR>
> >LensPersons series by A. A. "Dok" Milne.<BR>
> ><BR>
> Starkly astonishing tales of Winnie the Pooh?<BR>
> <BR>
> <<mentally picturing Tigger with a Lens>><BR>
<BR>
Upon further reflection of this improbable image:<BR>
<BR>
"PSI!  That's what Tiggers do BEST!"  <<bounce>><BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2221<BR>
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Traveller-digest      Thursday, March 30 2000      Volume 1999 : Number 2222<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Coincidence? I think Not . . .<BR>
Re: Warning labels for Traveller<BR>
Re: GDW boardgames<BR>
Re: GDW boardgames<BR>
Re: GDW boardgames<BR>
Re: Notes on building Heya<BR>
Re: Notes on building Heya.<BR>
Re: TL<BR>
Re: Janitor<BR>
Re: Coincidence? I think Not . . .<BR>
Re: Flag Stoppages<BR>
Re: Flag Stoppages<BR>
Re: Floating Cities...<BR>
Re: The ecologies of space rocks with people on them<BR>
Re: Black Curtain: MT revealed plotlines<BR>
Re: Crossing Worlds<BR>
Re: Grav-powered floating cities II<BR>
Re: Grav-powered floating cities II<BR>
Re: Grav-powered floating cities II<BR>
Re: Grav-powered floating cities II<BR>
Re: Crossing Worlds<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 15:03:20 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Coincidence? I think Not . . .<BR>
<BR>
>From: GDWGAMES@aol.com<BR>
<BR>
>Your agonizer please. <BR>
<BR>
aaaaeaaweeeaaghahaghhahahahwaaa waahahhhawwaa <BR>
<BR>
Oh, not mine? whew.<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.<BR>
http://im.yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 17:11:46 -0600<BR>
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Warning labels for Traveller<BR>
<BR>
Luther Martin wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> /*<BR>
> <BR>
> An e-mail which I received this morning which has some small relevance to<BR>
> the game of Traveller.<BR>
> <BR>
> */<BR>
> <BR>
> WARNING: This Product Warps Space and Time in Its Vicinity.<BR>
> <BR>
> WARNING: This Product Attracts Every Other Piece of Matter in the universe,<BR>
> Including the Products of Other Manufacturers, with a Force Proportional to<BR>
> the Product of the Masses and Inversely Proportional to the Distance Between<BR>
> Them.<BR>
<BR>
<<snips other entertaining warnings and notices>><BR>
<BR>
WARNING:  Do not taunt the Happy Fun Ball.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 15:13:59 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: GDW boardgames<BR>
<BR>
>From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
<BR>
>At 16:23 +0000 30/3/00, Diana Avon & Gerry Smit <BR>
><avonsmit@netcom.ca> wrote:<BR>
>>Am I the only guy on this list to have been lucky enough to <BR>
>>have played Imperium , Dark Nebula, Fifth Frontier War, and <BR>
>>Invasion Earth ???   OOOO a first for me.<BR>
<BR>
Attention Kristian & Luther:  it appears that the gauntlet has<BR>
been thrown.  I myself have played all of the games mentioned<BR>
except Imperium, which I do own.  Let's put it on our monthly<BR>
Traveller board game list.<BR>
<BR>
Gerry, have you played Azhanti High Lightning?  If not, you<BR>
should (I have of course).<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.<BR>
http://im.yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 15:24:27 -0800<BR>
From: "Luther Martin" <martin@ksarul.com><BR>
Subject: Re: GDW boardgames<BR>
<BR>
Glenn Goffin wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> >>Am I the only guy on this list to have been lucky enough to<BR>
> >>have played Imperium , Dark Nebula, Fifth Frontier War, and<BR>
> >>Invasion Earth ???   OOOO a first for me.<BR>
><BR>
> Attention Kristian & Luther:  it appears that the gauntlet has<BR>
> been thrown.  I myself have played all of the games mentioned<BR>
> except Imperium, which I do own.  Let's put it on our monthly<BR>
> Traveller board game list.<BR>
<BR>
Oooh, I see more eBay purchases coming. If I can only plan it so that the<BR>
stuff will arrive when my wife is taking the kids to visit her parents...<BR>
<BR>
I've only played Mayday, Snapshot, AHL, Invasion Earth, and Fifth Frontier<BR>
War. I know nothing about Dark Nebula and Imperium. I think that Imperium is<BR>
still available from Far Future Enterprises, however. Cheap. By eBay<BR>
standards.<BR>
<BR>
In any case, put them on the list.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 17:48:52 -0600<BR>
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: Re: GDW boardgames<BR>
<BR>
Luther Martin wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
<<snip>><BR>
> <BR>
> Oooh, I see more eBay purchases coming. If I can only plan it so that the<BR>
> stuff will arrive when my wife is taking the kids to visit her parents...<BR>
> <BR>
> I've only played Mayday, Snapshot, AHL, Invasion Earth, and Fifth Frontier<BR>
> War. I know nothing about Dark Nebula and Imperium. I think that Imperium is<BR>
> still available from Far Future Enterprises, however. Cheap. By eBay<BR>
> standards.<BR>
<BR>
At Titan Games, Imperium is currently available new for $15.  Although<BR>
the Web site doesn't say, I suspect that the copy or copies they have<BR>
are the second GDW edition (4-piece hardback game board, slightly<BR>
smaller than the folded-paper 1st edition map).<BR>
<BR>
There's plenty of other Traveller material there, too.<BR>
<BR>
http://www.titangames.com<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 02:02:51 +0200 (METDST)<BR>
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk><BR>
Subject: Re: Notes on building Heya<BR>
<BR>
Ian Ferguson writes:<BR>
<BR>
>Jesse LaBranche writes:<BR>
>>>>And just how much are they paying for their food? If it's anything<BR>
>>>>resembling what it is worth, every man jack on Heya would be a<BR>
>>>>millionaire.<BR>
>>>I don't follow this.  Why do you think that the Heyans would all be<BR>
>>>rich?<BR>
>>I think that the original poster was saying that the Heyans would<BR>
>>have to be rich in order to be able to pay for the food once you<BR>
>>figured market value and import cost into the value of it.<BR>
<BR>
No, I was saying that if the Heyans produce enough food to feed 36 billion<BR>
people, they would become millionaires selling it to them. I can't recall<BR>
how much food a TTL 5 farmer can produce according to the rules in _World<BR>
Builder's Handbook_, but it isn't more than a few dozen. And not all of<BR>
Heya's population would be farmers.<BR>
<BR>
>I'm not much of an economist, but I would expect that while<BR>
>food prices would be high on the worlds that must import food,<BR>
> they would not be higher than the market could bear.<BR>
<BR>
Just a fair price would be enough.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
      Hans Rancke<BR>
University of Copenhagen<BR>
     rancke@diku.dk<BR>
- ------------<BR>
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent<BR>
         events based on the individual situation."<BR>
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 02:10:02 +0200 (METDST)<BR>
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk><BR>
Subject: Re: Notes on building Heya.<BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry writes:<BR>
<BR>
>I was being deliberately vague on this point.  I haven't designed the<BR>
>besties yet. They might end up being 500,000dt J-3 monsters.<BR>
<BR>
Sorry, I didn't make my meaning clear. Not only does it take a lot of ships<BR>
to transport food for billions of people, it also takes lots and lots of<BR>
farmers. And these are TTL5 farmers.<BR>
<BR>
>>And just how much are they paying for their food? If it's anything<BR>
>>resembling what it is worth, every man jack on Heya would be a millionaire.<BR>
> <BR>
>Well, there's that shiny starport and fleet of transports to pay off...<BR>
 <BR>
Traditionally operating expenses are passed on to the customer. But what I<BR>
meant was that if the Heyans could grow that much food, they would all be<BR>
millionaires. However, I don't believe they can.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
      Hans Rancke<BR>
University of Copenhagen<BR>
     rancke@diku.dk<BR>
- ------------<BR>
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent<BR>
         events based on the individual situation."<BR>
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 02:37:59 +0200 (METDST)<BR>
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk><BR>
Subject: Re: TL<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erickson writes:<BR>
<BR>
>Sure, but TL is *not* what can be (or has) been imported. It's what the<BR>
>locals can build and maintain. <BR>
<BR>
sorry, but that explanation just doesn't work in all cases. There are plenty<BR>
of worlds with a TL level that they just CAN'T maintain on their own because<BR>
they don't have enough people to run all the necessary parts.<BR>
<BR>
Of course, you may believe that two people can run a TL 15 society. I don't,<BR>
but I can't prove it. I certainly don't think that a family with a TL10<BR>
mobile fabrication facility makes a TL 10 society. And I'm _positive_ that<BR>
a few hundred people does not make a TL 5 society.<BR>
<BR>
My own take is that TL is what a sizable part of the population use in their<BR>
daily lives[*]. Whether they build it themselves or dig something out of the<BR>
ground and use it to buy what they need doesn't matter. However, imports by<BR>
a few rich people do not count. It has to be a sizable part of the<BR>
population. Which means that in MOST cases it's what can be produced<BR>
locally. But a mining colony that imports all it's TL 9 equipment is TL 9<BR>
not TL 0 or 1.<BR>
<BR>
All IMO.<BR>
<BR>
[*] Actually, what it REALLY is is a number some Scout Survey commander<BR>
    decided on...<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
      Hans Rancke<BR>
University of Copenhagen<BR>
     rancke@diku.dk<BR>
- ------------<BR>
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent<BR>
         events based on the individual situation."<BR>
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 19:05:19 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Janitor<BR>
<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com <GDWGAMES@aol.com><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>In a message dated 00-03-30 08:02:46 EST, you write:<BR>
><BR>
><< ><< Thanks. I suppose that it's obvious that I'm the type of guy who had<BR>
> > the inhabitants of the "dungeon" start organizing to deal with the<BR>
> > adventurers in D&D? >><BR>
> ><BR>
> >Back when I ran D&D, the party encountered a little guy with a pushcart<BR>
and<BR>
> a<BR>
> >broom and a HUGE ring of keys.<BR>
> ><BR>
> >LKW<BR>
>     Didn't you put that into either Dragon, or a Judge's Guild mag? >><BR>
><BR>
>Maybe -- it has been nearly 20 years and I don't remember.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    IIRC, it was in the same issue where they had the police write up.<BR>
*weg*<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 17:39:00 -0900<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Coincidence? I think Not . . .<BR>
<BR>
GDWGAMES@aol.com [LKW] wrote<BR>
<BR>
>  Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net> wrote<BR>
>  Loren knows that the Solomani invented the jump drive on<BR>
>  out own because he knows we _already_have_. >><BR>
<BR>
> Your agonizer please. <BR>
<BR>
"No, please, Mr Spock, No."<BR>
<BR>
P.S. Notice how Loren has codedly revealed his knowledge of <BR>
alternate realities by refering to the Mirror Universe<BR>
episode of Star Trek:TOS.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 02:47:45 GMT<BR>
From: j_pete@bellsouth.net (Pete)<BR>
Subject: Re: Flag Stoppages<BR>
<BR>
On Tue, 28 Mar 2000 22:12:28 -0600, Black ICE <wombat@premier.net><BR>
wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>"Douglas E. Berry" wrote:<BR>
>> <BR>
>> At 03:53 PM 3/28/2000 -0600, you wrote:<BR>
>> >> -----Original Message-----<BR>
>> >> From: Douglas E. Berry [mailto:gridlore@pop.mindspring.com]<BR>
>> <BR>
>> >> "Honestly, sir. I didn't hear the music!"<BR>
>> ><BR>
>> >And what about that cannon?<BR>
>> <BR>
>> Feh. It fires at the end of the ceremony, IIRC. And by that time you are<BR>
>> well on your way to the fleshpots and bacterial breeding grounds of Victory<BR>
>> Drive.<BR>
><BR>
>1.  It fires between "Retreat" and "To the Colors."<BR>
><BR>
>2.  By the time the cannon sounds, it's really too late to stop, get<BR>
>out, and salute.  And unsafe.  ;-)<BR>
><BR>
>3.  Victory Drive.  I knew it well, though briefly.  The Ft. Bragg<BR>
>equivalent was Hay Street.  (I was reputed to have a barstool with my<BR>
>name on it at Rick's Lounge.)  Tragically, I hear that they cleaned up<BR>
>Hay Street.  <sigh><BR>
><BR>
>Ah, for the days of my misspent youth!<BR>
<BR>
Not only was Rick's torn down, they built a new police station about a<BR>
block away. <BR>
<BR>
- - Jeff Peterson (j_pete@bellsouth.net)<BR>
"Thoughts of sex distracted me and now I have to immolate myself to subdue the<BR>
 buzzing in my head!"                 -Tom Servo<BR>
Pete 0609 D258A85-3 S kk- hi++ as+ va++ dr++ so zh- vi+ da++ A833<BR>
NOG #74  AirStar Nova 700<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 02:55:08 GMT<BR>
From: j_pete@bellsouth.net (Pete)<BR>
Subject: Re: Flag Stoppages<BR>
<BR>
On Wed, 29 Mar 2000 12:56:54 -0600, "Moody, Danny M."<BR>
<DMoody@bridge.com> wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>> -----Original Message-----<BR>
>> From: Douglas E. Berry [mailto:gridlore@pop.mindspring.com]<BR>
>> They go to the speakeasies that enteprising souls will open. <BR>
>> Ever been to<BR>
>> Fayetteville?  Hays St. is filled with places that make <BR>
>> Victory look like a<BR>
>> Baptist Church.<BR>
><BR>
>Oh, Deity!  Fayette-Nam!  I had almost recovered from that place.  Ouch.<BR>
<BR>
IMHO the only problem with Fayetteville was the 50k+ screamin' army<BR>
guys parked next door. They just don't know how to treat their people.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- - Jeff Peterson (j_pete@bellsouth.net)<BR>
"Thoughts of sex distracted me and now I have to immolate myself to subdue the<BR>
 buzzing in my head!"                 -Tom Servo<BR>
Pete 0609 D258A85-3 S kk- hi++ as+ va++ dr++ so zh- vi+ da++ A833<BR>
NOG #74  AirStar Nova 700<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 03:06:40 GMT<BR>
From: j_pete@bellsouth.net (Pete)<BR>
Subject: Re: Floating Cities...<BR>
<BR>
On Wed, 29 Mar 2000 12:14:21 +1000, "The Roc" <roc@kewl.com.au> wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU><BR>
>To: 'TML' <traveller@mpgn.com><BR>
>Sent: Wednesday, March 29, 2000 4:59 AM<BR>
>Subject: Grav Powered Floating Cities<BR>
><BR>
>> One thing to remember about civilizations with floating cities: they've<BR>
>> probably had antigravity technology for *millenia*. They would think no<BR>
>> more of putting it under a city - barring expense - than we would think of<BR>
>> putting an oil furnace under a house.<BR>
><BR>
>Yes, and all grav modules probably wouldn't fail at the same time, their<BR>
>would probably be a reasonable redundancy in there also... say at least 50%<BR>
>(Isn't that what most multi-engined aircraft designers work on?  I seem to<BR>
>remember that from an episode of Wings on Discovery??), meaning that 50% of<BR>
>the modules could "safely" fail.<BR>
<BR>
That's true for the B-52 as long as you don't lose all four engines on<BR>
one wing. That would be *bad*.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- - Jeff Peterson (j_pete@bellsouth.net)<BR>
"Thoughts of sex distracted me and now I have to immolate myself to subdue the<BR>
 buzzing in my head!"                 -Tom Servo<BR>
Pete 0609 D258A85-3 S kk- hi++ as+ va++ dr++ so zh- vi+ da++ A833<BR>
NOG #74  AirStar Nova 700<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 03:07:14 GMT<BR>
From: j_pete@bellsouth.net (Pete)<BR>
Subject: Re: The ecologies of space rocks with people on them<BR>
<BR>
On Wed, 29 Mar 2000 23:18:46 +1200, "Rupert Boleyn"<BR>
<rboleyn@paradise.net.nz> wrote:<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
>On 29 Mar 00, at 0:10, Damage169@cs.com wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>> In a message dated 3/28/00 9:09:26 PM Central Standard Time, Leonard<BR>
>> Erickson writes:<BR>
>> <BR>
>> > > Since TL 7 is approximately where we are now,<BR>
>> >  <BR>
>> >  Excuse me? We are at least TL-8.<BR>
>> >  <BR>
>> <BR>
>> We, in the developed nations, are at TL 8 (with some technologies arguably<BR>
>> up to TL 9), but most of the rest of the world is at TL 6-7. Some areas<BR>
>> like Ethiopia and Outer Mongolia are probably even lower. It generally<BR>
>> seems to average out at TL 7.<BR>
><BR>
>According to the way MT did things this makes us TL8, as it's perfectly <BR>
>Ok for areas away from the starport, etc to one or two TLs lower than <BR>
>the rated TL.<BR>
<BR>
Where's our starport? I'm hungry for an Astroburger!<BR>
<BR>
- - Jeff Peterson (j_pete@bellsouth.net)<BR>
"Thoughts of sex distracted me and now I have to immolate myself to subdue the<BR>
 buzzing in my head!"                 -Tom Servo<BR>
Pete 0609 D258A85-3 S kk- hi++ as+ va++ dr++ so zh- vi+ da++ A833<BR>
NOG #74  AirStar Nova 700<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 19:14:23 -0800<BR>
From: "Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Black Curtain: MT revealed plotlines<BR>
<BR>
Via electronic medium on 3/28/00 7:14 AM, kemitixanzantix@freenet.co.uk<BR>
issued forth:<BR>
<BR>
>> Is there any way I can get that info from you, either on list or via<BR>
>> private mail? I'd love to know more about the Primordials.<BR>
>> <BR>
>> Thanks,<BR>
>> Jason<BR>
> <BR>
> I'd be interested as well.  If you send it by email, could I get a copy?  If<BR>
> you post it to the list thats good too :)<BR>
<BR>
Me too, sounds like you may as well post to the list.<BR>
<BR>
BZA's Traveller--> http://www.sierratel.com/aum/BZAT/<BR>
BZA's E-Mail--> xrp@sierratel.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 22:52:48 -0500<BR>
From: "J-Man" <j-man@iname.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Crossing Worlds<BR>
<BR>
Well if all else fails, a squad of Ixtls supported by Couerls with heavy<BR>
weapons should do the trick.<BR>
___________________________________________________________<BR>
 J-Man<BR>
 ICQ# 2843475<BR>
 New Hampshire - U.S.A.<BR>
 Email : j-man@iname.com<BR>
 Home Page : http://www.gocsystems.com/<BR>
___________________________________________________________<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: "Luther Martin" <martin@ksarul.com><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Wednesday, March 29, 2000 11:41 PM<BR>
Subject: RE: Crossing Worlds<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
><BR>
> > If I remember the conversions correctly, there are critters on the<BR>
> > Warden that can *shrug off* an FGMP shot, as well as ones who can<BR>
> > *claw* thru that BD...<BR>
><BR>
> I think that you're remembering Gamma World or some other related game.<BR>
Most<BR>
> of the creatures in MA were relatively tame, except for poison and<BR>
> radiation. These were the big killers in that game.<BR>
><BR>
> I may have to dig this game out and look at it again. It's been in plastic<BR>
> for quite a while, but at least I know where it is.<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 05:31:00 +0200<BR>
From: Ingo Heinscher <Hiroshi.Estigarribia@gmx.de><BR>
Subject: Re: Grav-powered floating cities II<BR>
<BR>
At 12:11 30.03.00 -0500, Smith, Walter wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Nice site two parsecs over. That's why we moved a million people over<BR>
>there 100 years ago. Whataya know, we got another million people to<BR>
>find a place for...<BR>
<BR>
:-) Got it.<BR>
<BR>
>A floating city, given efficient grav technology and a habitable<BR>
>atmosphere, might be cheaper to run than an orbital colony or a<BR>
>colony on an inhospitable planet. The best spots on nearby inhabitable<BR>
>planets should fill to capacity rather quickly, whether this capacity<BR>
>is based on resources or politics.<BR>
<BR>
.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
"This was not meant to be an aggresssion against the Siru Zirka. But we had<BR>
to organize our affairs a bit more efficiently. To be honest, we have had<BR>
to do this for almost 300 years by now."<BR>
unknown Terran politician, -2398 Imp<BR>
;-) ingo heinscher <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 05:35:26 +0200<BR>
From: Ingo Heinscher <Hiroshi.Estigarribia@gmx.de><BR>
Subject: Re: Grav-powered floating cities II<BR>
<BR>
At 12:16 30.03.00 -0500, Smith, Walter wrote:<BR>
>Ingo Heinscher wrote:<BR>
>>Well, *I* wouldn't want to be at the upper levels of any skyscraper during <BR>
>>an earthquake. Because I think, just as I wrote earlier, that *every* <BR>
>>technology can fail. It may be very unprobable, but a minimal risk that is <BR>
>>avoidable is a stupid one, IMHO. <BR>
><BR>
>So everyone who goes skiing, boating, or bicycling is <BR>
>stupid. As is everyone who takes a vacation trip, whether<BR>
>by ship, plane, or car. All of these activities have<BR>
>an element of risk, however minimal, that could be<BR>
>avoided by staying at home and reading a book instead.<BR>
><BR>
>Oh, wait, papercuts... <G><BR>
<BR>
Too much sarcasm. Not necessary.<BR>
<BR>
If you read my postig again, I wrote *avoidable*. It is avoidable to be in<BR>
a skyscraper at an Earthuake if you _know_ there will be an earthchquake<BR>
that _might_  shatter it. Just as you know that a grav ciy _might_ fail and<BR>
fall down.<BR>
<BR>
But you are right. If people are willing to believe that it is safe, it<BR>
justifies a grav-powered floating city from that POV. Still, the insurance<BR>
cost would be muc higher, wouldn't it?<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
"This was not meant to be an aggresssion against the Siru Zirka. But we had<BR>
to organize our affairs a bit more efficiently. To be honest, we have had<BR>
to do this for almost 300 years by now."<BR>
unknown Terran politician, -2398 Imp<BR>
;-) ingo heinscher <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 05:40:46 +0200<BR>
From: Ingo Heinscher <Hiroshi.Estigarribia@gmx.de><BR>
Subject: Re: Grav-powered floating cities II<BR>
<BR>
At 11:31 30.03.00 -0600, Stormhound wrote:<BR>
>Ingo Heinscher wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>> Well, *I* wouldn't want to be at the upper levels of any skyscraper during<BR>
>> an earthquake. Because I think, just as I wrote earlier, that *every*<BR>
>> technology can fail. It may be very unprobable, but a minimal risk that is<BR>
>> avoidable is a stupid one, IMHO.<BR>
><BR>
>    I take it that you never drive or ride vehicles <BR>
<BR>
[snip sarcasm]<BR>
<BR>
>    Do you also avoid the shower/bath,<BR>
<BR>
[snip again]<BR>
<BR>
>    [The entire point being, of course, that people take all sorts of<BR>
>risks...minimal and otherwise...if they perceive the reward as being<BR>
sufficient to<BR>
>merit them.  Just because *you* wouldn't trust the grav technology doesn't<BR>
mean<BR>
>other people wouldn't.]<BR>
<BR>
So that is the point, and I must aggree. But still, I ask myself wheher<BR>
there are insurance companies who will be ready to pay the damage of<BR>
apossible engine failure.<BR>
<BR>
Ok, what will such a GPFC cost?<BR>
<BR>
What will be the risk of failure, realistically? (There will be risk,<BR>
though probably a small one).<BR>
<BR>
I'd say that the insurance company would try to make aprfoit, so... what<BR>
would they want for insuring such a site? (Any gearheads ready to build<BR>
something larger than a tower? :) )<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
"This was not meant to be an aggresssion against the Siru Zirka. But we had<BR>
to organize our affairs a bit more efficiently. To be honest, we have had<BR>
to do this for almost 300 years by now."<BR>
unknown Terran politician, -2398 Imp<BR>
;-) ingo heinscher <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 05:46:30 +0200<BR>
From: Ingo Heinscher <Hiroshi.Estigarribia@gmx.de><BR>
Subject: Re: Grav-powered floating cities II<BR>
<BR>
At 10:38 30.03.00 -0700, Bruce Johnson wrote:<BR>
>Ingo Heinscher wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>> >You've fallen into the 'if it's Tuesday it must be another planet'<BR>
>> >syndrome. Every planet is going to have a range of habitat. On Earth,<BR>
>> >unfortunaely, some of the most desireable is in the path of various<BR>
>> >natural disasters. Something like 500 million people live directly in<BR>
>> >the path of powerful cyclones that hit the Indian subcontinent annually.<BR>
>> <BR>
>> Isn't that also due to the fact that there few alternatives for those<BR>
>> people? <BR>
><BR>
>Not really. For instance, many places in the Midwest pose little<BR>
>earthquake danger, land prices and the associated cost of living are far<BR>
>cheaper, but people continue to flock to California. I wonder why?<BR>
><BR>
>The earthquakes (and traffic, droughts, wildfires, mudslides, and all<BR>
>the other hassles of living in LA doesn't seem to be driving people<BR>
>away, does it?)<BR>
<BR>
Granted.<BR>
<BR>
>> If you could choose: live in LA or settle to a site on a planet two<BR>
>> jumps away where the climate and everything is similar, but without those<BR>
>> earthquakes. Would still be _much_ cheaper than a grav city. (Even<BR>
>> rebuilding the city over and over again would be, I think.)<BR>
><BR>
>This makes the huge assumption that there's a paradise world two jumps<BR>
>yonder that somehow doesn't have plate tectonics. Given our<BR>
>understanding of planetary science right now, such a world is more<BR>
>likely to resemble Venus than LA. I know, I know, on a bad summer day<BR>
>it's hard to tell the diff, but... ;-) Actually, probably a lot of what<BR>
>makes Southern California a desireable place to live IS the plate<BR>
>tectonics, which helps direct things like the Humbolt current, which<BR>
>moderates the climate.<BR>
><BR>
>There's an idea. Want to do weather control? Then you have to do things<BR>
>like control the Gulf Stream, El Nino, The Humbolt Current, the<BR>
>greenhouse effect...these are _planetary_ scale phenomena. Do you know<BR>
>how many terawatts it would take to alter the temperature of the smaller<BR>
>of these oceanic currents?<BR>
<BR>
No. How many terawatts does it require to power a grav city?<BR>
<BR>
>> Well, *I* wouldn't want to be at the upper levels of any skyscraper during<BR>
>> an earthquake. Because I think, just as I wrote earlier, that *every*<BR>
>> technology can fail. It may be very unprobable, but a minimal risk that is<BR>
>> avoidable is a stupid one, IMHO.<BR>
><BR>
>In point of fact, riding out a quake in a properly designed skyscraper<BR>
>is safer than in most buildings in a city, and would shake less. This<BR>
>has been shown in several recent quakes in Southern California, and<BR>
>(negatively) shown in the Kobe quake some years ago...the Japanese<BR>
>engineers had ignored many things that American engineers had found out<BR>
>about building behavior during earthquakes, in favor of their old<BR>
>theories. Oops! Buidings fall down go boom.<BR>
<BR>
Well, probably it's just that I as a central European have never<BR>
experienced an earthquake andf find the idea of being in skyscraper during<BR>
one therefore somwhat disturbing...But this essentiallythe same as beeing<BR>
not used to grav cities...<BR>
<BR>
>Basic assumption: If you think grav cities in YTU are not probable, then<BR>
>don't put them there.<BR>
><BR>
>But it comes down to a matter of your suspension of disbelief comfort<BR>
>zone, some of us havve larger ones than others.<BR>
<BR>
That is the whole point. What I intended with this thread was to help me<BR>
out of the problem without adjusting canon, since the latter is more work. <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
"This was not meant to be an aggresssion against the Siru Zirka. But we had<BR>
to organize our affairs a bit more efficiently. To be honest, we have had<BR>
to do this for almost 300 years by now."<BR>
unknown Terran politician, -2398 Imp<BR>
;-) ingo heinscher <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 22:58:03 -0500<BR>
From: "J-Man" <j-man@iname.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Crossing Worlds<BR>
<BR>
<evil cackling><BR>
<BR>
According to the 1st edition rules, if you keep rolling "Dual Brain", you<BR>
can keep rolling for more mutations.  I once had a guy roll almost all the<BR>
mutations this way.  No dice fudging was used.<BR>
___________________________________________________________<BR>
 J-Man<BR>
 ICQ# 2843475<BR>
 New Hampshire - U.S.A.<BR>
 Email : j-man@iname.com<BR>
 Home Page : http://www.gocsystems.com/<BR>
___________________________________________________________<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: "Leonard Erickson" <shadow@krypton.rain.com><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Thursday, March 30, 2000 2:19 AM<BR>
Subject: Re: Crossing Worlds<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> In mail you write:<BR>
><BR>
> > Thou art most evil, Sir GM..:)   I still have Metamorphasis Alpha..I<BR>
> > remember first seeing it in an old magazine back in the late 70's.<BR>
><BR>
> Well, then I guess we might as well go all the way and have one of the<BR>
> worlds being recontacted after the "Long Night" be "Gamma World". :-)<BR>
><BR>
> --<BR>
> Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
>  shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
> leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2222<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2223</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
Date:	3/30/00 10:05:55 PM Pacific Standard Time<BR>
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Traveller-digest       Friday, March 31 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2223<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Completely OT<BR>
Re: Crossing Worlds<BR>
RE: TML LAND GRAB - How long do we have?<BR>
Re: More Cool Maps<BR>
Re: Grav-powered floating cities II<BR>
Re: Grav-powered floating cities II<BR>
Re: Grav-powered floating cities II...<BR>
Re: Grav-powered floating cities II...<BR>
Re: Reclaiming, er, wastes...<BR>
Re: GDW boardgames<BR>
Re: Crossing Worlds<BR>
Re: Crossing Worlds<BR>
Map: Domain of Deneb<BR>
TNE Regency Sourcebook<BR>
Re: TNE Regency Sourcebook<BR>
Re: Crossing Worlds<BR>
Re: Map: Domain of Deneb<BR>
Re: Crossing Worlds<BR>
Re: Crossing Worlds<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 22:59:40 -0500<BR>
From: "J-Man" <j-man@iname.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Completely OT<BR>
<BR>
Oh that's a CLASSIC!  :)  Gotta save this one!<BR>
___________________________________________________________<BR>
 J-Man<BR>
 ICQ# 2843475<BR>
 New Hampshire - U.S.A.<BR>
 Email : j-man@iname.com<BR>
 Home Page : http://www.gocsystems.com/<BR>
___________________________________________________________<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: "Leonard Erickson" <shadow@krypton.rain.com><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Thursday, March 30, 2000 2:21 AM<BR>
Subject: Re: Completely OT<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> In mail you write:<BR>
><BR>
> > In a message dated 00-03-29 06:22:04 EST, you write:<BR>
> ><BR>
> > << Thanks. I suppose that it's obvious that I'm the type of guy who had<BR>
> >  the inhabitants of the "dungeon" start organizing to deal with the<BR>
> >  adventurers in D&D? >><BR>
> ><BR>
> > Back when I ran D&D, the party encountered a little guy with a pushcart<BR>
and<BR>
> > a broom and a HUGE ring of keys.<BR>
><BR>
> I was in a game where we burst into an oddly furnished room containing<BR>
> a group of people clustered around a table. As I recall (it's been more<BR>
> than 20 years) the hot-heads slew them before rest rest of us could<BR>
> stop them. At which point the GM told us we vanished into nothingness.<BR>
><BR>
> After all, when a PC slays the player running him, you have to expect<BR>
> that sort of thing. :-)<BR>
><BR>
> --<BR>
> Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
>  shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
> leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 23:09:05 -0500<BR>
From: "J-Man" <j-man@iname.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Crossing Worlds<BR>
<BR>
Yes.  My campaign has the traveller Imperuim populated 1100 years ago by<BR>
colonists fleeing Earth/Gamma World.  They have forgotten about its<BR>
existance for a long time.  Using the Prison Planet adventure, I have the<BR>
penal colony on the edge of the spinward marches.  The PC's get caught up in<BR>
a war between the Sword World forces and the Imperium in the Lanth subsector<BR>
and are charged as spies and sent to the penal colony.  After a month or so<BR>
there, a strange starship crashes on the penal colony world.  The occupants<BR>
are 1.5 meter tall mutated rabbitoid creatures (Hoops) and the PCs after<BR>
killing the Hoops use the strange ship to escape - however its<BR>
pre-programmed to return to its point of origin which is an Azhanti<BR>
High-Lightening class cruiser outfitted 1100 years before as a colonial<BR>
transport.  It is drifting nose down in the upper atmosphere of a gas giant.<BR>
<BR>
This adventure eventually leads back to Earth (now a ringworld) controlled<BR>
by an immense computer known as the Apocatron.  The majority of the world is<BR>
war-torn and full of the usual Gamma world type denizens.<BR>
___________________________________________________________<BR>
 J-Man<BR>
 ICQ# 2843475<BR>
 New Hampshire - U.S.A.<BR>
 Email : j-man@iname.com<BR>
 Home Page : http://www.gocsystems.com/<BR>
___________________________________________________________<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: "Jesse LaBranche" <Vanquer@email.msn.com><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Thursday, March 30, 2000 7:00 AM<BR>
Subject: Re: Crossing Worlds<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>     Curiousity just got the better of me and I'm going to have to ask...<BR>
> Has anyone brought TSR's various worlds into Traveller?<BR>
><BR>
> Later.<BR>
><BR>
> Jesse.<BR>
> vanquer@email.msn.com<BR>
> ICQ. 8004143<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 22:10:51 -0600<BR>
From: Kurt Brown <kurtbrown@home.com><BR>
Subject: RE: TML LAND GRAB - How long do we have?<BR>
<BR>
Anyone have any idea if there is a set timeframe in which to complete<BR>
our worlds? Penelope is kinda exploding in my head right now, so I might<BR>
have more than I bargained for! Looks like I may have picked an<BR>
interesting world. . .<BR>
<BR>
Kurt Brown<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 20:09:27 -0800<BR>
From: "Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com><BR>
Subject: Re: More Cool Maps<BR>
<BR>
Via electronic medium on 3/28/00 7:22 PM, shadow@krypton.rain.com issued<BR>
forth:<BR>
<BR>
> I've got several files that someone on the list sent me. They are all<BR>
> the same "form" at different resolutions or formats. Let me know which<BR>
> one(s) you want. <BR>
<BR>
Thank you for the response, I'd go for the three GIF's. You were mentioning<BR>
PNG's earlier-- I tired fooling around with them and found that the drop in<BR>
file size was significant as you said, but when I tried to view it with<BR>
Netscape, she crashed. Not the system, just Netscape, any ideas why? I had<BR>
converted a GIF to PNG with Graphic Converter. The drop in file size would<BR>
be great fot gaming maps, as they tend to multipy as campaigns progress.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 22:22:14 -0600<BR>
From: Stormhound <stormhnd@fidnet.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Grav-powered floating cities II<BR>
<BR>
Ingo Heinscher wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> [snip sarcasm]<BR>
<BR>
    Well, you *were* the one pronouncing things as "stupid", so...<BR>
<BR>
> So that is the point, and I must aggree. But still, I ask myself wheher<BR>
> there are insurance companies who will be ready to pay the damage of<BR>
> apossible engine failure.<BR>
<BR>
    In a word: yes.  (Ever heard of Lloyd's of London?  They've insured all sorts<BR>
of strange stuff.)  There are insurance companies that cover auto dealerships in<BR>
hurricane zones, where you know there are going to be losses almost every year.<BR>
I know, because I used to work for one.  When Andrew tore through Florida some<BR>
years back, they paid up, adjusted things based on recent risk data, and went on<BR>
about business.  Same goes for earthquakes, tornadoes, and more ordinary sources<BR>
of loss like fires and theft.  What's important is not that there will be<BR>
failures, but how *often* and how *expensive* they are.<BR>
<BR>
> What will be the risk of failure, realistically? (There will be risk,<BR>
> though probably a small one).<BR>
><BR>
> I'd say that the insurance company would try to make aprfoit, so... what<BR>
> would they want for insuring such a site? (Any gearheads ready to build<BR>
> something larger than a tower? :) )<BR>
<BR>
    No way to say, because we have no way to calculate the risk...and that's what<BR>
determines it.  It's all a matter of a GM SWAG, in the case of a grav<BR>
building/city.  You have to make some base assumptions...but it's a given that if<BR>
something is in wide use, it should be relatively safe (or that the questions of<BR>
safety are debated vigorously, such as with tobacco).<BR>
    In the beginning, such insurance would probably be fairly costly, precisely<BR>
because there will be few companies willing to assume the risk and no data on<BR>
which to base the rate of risk.  As such edifices are used more commonly and for<BR>
longer periods of time, insurance companies will have more data on which to<BR>
assess risk, and costs will stabilize.<BR>
    If you've ever seen actuarial tables for humans (as I have), you'd see that<BR>
they have a huge amount of data...literally hundreds of millions of people's<BR>
lives.  With that kind of data, analyzing loss rates is a lot simpler.  You know,<BR>
within a fairly small limit, how many people of age X are going to die in a given<BR>
year.  If you know that, and you know what it costs you to insure one person,<BR>
then you know what to charge each customer to ensure that you cover your expected<BR>
losses and make some profit.  It all comes down to statistics.<BR>
<BR>
    Personally, if you make the assumption that grav edifices are in fairly<BR>
common use, and are reliable and safe, I see no reason why you can't assume that<BR>
the insurance would be fairly cheap...on the order of homeowner's/renter's<BR>
insurance, which should run under 1/2% per year of the cost of the<BR>
home/valuables, depending upon other factors with which I shan't bore the list.<BR>
That's still a set of assumptions, however, and YMMV.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
Stormhound<BR>
DNRC Ombudsman for Induhvidual Affairs, Holder of Past Knowledge<BR>
Come visit my web page at http://www.fidnet.com/~stormhnd<BR>
Or my new Amateur Radio web page at http://www.qsl.net/kc0ekv<BR>
Or my JN6 course design page at http://www.fidnet.com/~stormhnd/golfpage.htm<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 14:55:34 +1000<BR>
From: "The Roc" <roc@kewl.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re: Grav-powered floating cities II<BR>
<BR>
Not if the last grav-city to fall out of the sky was on another world<BR>
several jumps away, some 1000+ years ago.  On the other hand, if IYTU,<BR>
grav-cities fall from the sky daily, then they certainly are dangerous and<BR>
shouldn't be used at all - if that's what you want.<BR>
<BR>
However, if you don't like grav-cities and don't care to accept other posts<BR>
on the subject explaining how safe they are or can be, then just don't use<BR>
them.<BR>
<BR>
- -- The Roc<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: Ingo Heinscher <Hiroshi.Estigarribia@gmx.de><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Friday, March 31, 2000 1:35 PM<BR>
Subject: Re: Grav-powered floating cities II<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
> But you are right. If people are willing to believe that it is safe, it<BR>
> justifies a grav-powered floating city from that POV. Still, the insurance<BR>
> cost would be muc higher, wouldn't it?<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 15:05:04 +1000<BR>
From: "The Roc" <roc@kewl.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re: Grav-powered floating cities II...<BR>
<BR>
I'd think that if the technology is as reliable as everyone says it would be<BR>
(and I'd agree in my TU), and the designers have a 50% redundancy inbuilt in<BR>
case of failure, that general breakdowns wouldn't cause even a 50% failure<BR>
(Depending on how the modules are laid out?  Say there are 12 largish<BR>
modules, you'd be unlucky if six went down from ordinary mechanical failure<BR>
at the same time), which would be replaced, hopefully, well before there was<BR>
any chance of actual danger?<BR>
<BR>
Of course, this does not take into consideration tampering, sabotage, and/or<BR>
poor maintenance.  And in a storm warning situation, the city may require<BR>
9-out-of-12 modules to be operational to remain 100% stable/safe?<BR>
<BR>
But that's just me and the way I'd look at it in MTU as I love the spectacle<BR>
of "modern wonders" such as "floating cities" and the like.<BR>
<BR>
- -- The Roc<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: Ingo Heinscher <Hiroshi.Estigarribia@gmx.de><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Friday, March 31, 2000 1:40 PM<BR>
Subject: Re: Grav-powered floating cities II<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
> What will be the risk of failure, realistically? (There will be risk,<BR>
> though probably a small one).<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 15:09:29 +1000<BR>
From: "The Roc" <roc@kewl.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re: Grav-powered floating cities II...<BR>
<BR>
That's a valid point, for you.  However, the fact that grav-cities are<BR>
"reasonably" common in the OTU means they are readily acceptable by the<BR>
citizens within, meaning they must be rather safe compared to what our<BR>
technology would permit?  You can simply keep them well within canon and say<BR>
"they are safe."  But it's ultimately up to you.<BR>
<BR>
- -- The Roc<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: Ingo Heinscher <Hiroshi.Estigarribia@gmx.de><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Friday, March 31, 2000 1:46 PM<BR>
Subject: Re: Grav-powered floating cities II<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> ><BR>
> >But it comes down to a matter of your suspension of disbelief comfort<BR>
> >zone, some of us havve larger ones than others.<BR>
><BR>
> That is the whole point. What I intended with this thread was to help me<BR>
> out of the problem without adjusting canon, since the latter is more work.<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 00:13:26 -0500<BR>
From: "DaveShayne" <daveshayne@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Reclaiming, er, wastes...<BR>
<BR>
>Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 03:45:05 EST<BR>
>From: GypsyComet@aol.com<BR>
>Subject: Reclaiming, er, wastes...<BR>
><BR>
>>>To build up reserves, there may be port regulations requiring ships to<BR>
>>>dump their "sewage" before leaving port (with exceptions for ships that<BR>
>>>actually recycle the sewage rather than merely extract the water and<BR>
>>>dump the rest in port). And limiting/taxing purchase of "extra"<BR>
>>>food/water over and above what is "needed" for the trip. And even<BR>
>>>"encouraging" a visit to the restroom before boarding ship.<BR>
>><BR>
>>"The Tourism Council of Heya hope you have enjoyed your visit to our<BR>
>>home and reminds you that you have one last chance to make use of<BR>
>>our palatially appointed 'Freshers."<BR>
>><BR>
><BR>
> With the sounds of running water being the white noise of preference<BR>
within<BR>
>a mile of the port...<BR>
><BR>
>GC<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
"The nicest starport I've ever been in. They have it all done up like a<BR>
rainforest. Waterfalls everywhere... water dripping from fronds...<BR>
streams gently flowing beside the walkways. The whole nine meters.<BR>
And the restraunts there specialize in Enopian stir fry. Great food but<BR>
if your not used to it it's a 50/50 shot at the trots."<BR>
<BR>
Dave Shayne<BR>
<BR>
"Now the workers have struck for fame<BR>
    cuz Lennon's on sale again." - David Bowie<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 21:08:41 -0800<BR>
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)<BR>
Subject: Re: GDW boardgames<BR>
<BR>
>From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net><BR>
>Subject: Re: GDW boardgames<BR>
...<BR>
>> I've only played Mayday, Snapshot, AHL, Invasion Earth, and Fifth Frontier<BR>
>> War. I know nothing about Dark Nebula and Imperium. I think that Imperium is<BR>
>> still available from Far Future Enterprises, however. Cheap. By eBay<BR>
>> standards.<BR>
><BR>
>At Titan Games, Imperium is currently available new for $15.  Although<BR>
<BR>
  They also have it for $8 US on their "Sale Items" page. They also accept<BR>
cash offerings and gifts of love, so if paying $15 works for you...  :><BR>
<BR>
  MSRP is, IIRC $24 US - and worth it, too.<BR>
<BR>
>the Web site doesn't say, I suspect that the copy or copies they have<BR>
>are the second GDW edition (4-piece hardback game board, slightly<BR>
>smaller than the folded-paper 1st edition map).<BR>
<BR>
  The copies I've got from them were the later edition, shrink-wrapped.<BR>
I prefer the hard to the paper board, frankly.<BR>
<BR>
>http://www.titangames.com<BR>
<BR>
  Of course, a better option might be to wait for the Classic <BR>
Traveller Collectors' Edition reprint book:<BR>
<BR>
...<BR>
>    Games. Includes full text of games produced for Traveller: Mayday,<BR>
>Snapshot, Azhanti High Lightning, Fifth Frontier War, Invasion: Earth.<BR>
>Also includes Striker, Dark Nebula, and Imperium. Game boards and counter<BR>
>images included.<BR>
<BR>
  The best option is waiting for the reprint _and_ having the game, too :)<BR>
<BR>
        Steven Hudson<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 21:07:03 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Crossing Worlds<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>     Walt, that was great.  In complete opposition,  I ran the AD&D module<BR>
> S3- Expedition to the Barrier Peaks for my players awhile back (with<BR>
> modifications to allow it to be a cross-over game for Sci-Fi) and they<BR>
> just didn't have a clue that they were on a ship.<BR>
>     Did TSR release nearly identical products here?  I know that Blackmoor<BR>
> and the Warden appear in both of their old worlds,  and now the module<BR>
> where they're on a ship and aren't supposed to know it?<BR>
<BR>
I think that S3 (which I ran too, though my players *knew* they were on<BR>
a ship and had trouble keeping their characters "in character) is just<BR>
the same *basic* idea, but taken in a different direction. <BR>
<BR>
Met Alpha was *years* before that. And Blackmoor's "hi tech" leftovers<BR>
date back to before D&D was released. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 20:51:30 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Crossing Worlds<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Antony Farrell wrote:<BR>
>>Note also that interfearing with a colony ship is an imperial high crime. <BR>
><BR>
> I hadn't heard this. Do they mean "interfering" as in <BR>
> attacking, plundering, or otherwise performing acts of<BR>
> piracy? Or does this include going out and finding<BR>
> STL sleeper ships with your jump-capable starship and<BR>
> "rescuing" the crew?<BR>
><BR>
> Imagine the shock to a generation-ship culture, when <BR>
> their long quest through the endless void is interrupted<BR>
> by an FTL starship from the world they left behind.<BR>
><BR>
> "Yup, you've been en route to your destination for 2000<BR>
> years now. Took us a while to find you, we've had jump<BR>
> drives for quite a few centuries now but we'd lost the<BR>
> exact records of when your ship left and where it was<BR>
> going. You still want to go to your original destination?<BR>
> It's been colonized for 400 years, but they might be<BR>
> able to find an island or something for you. Oh, you'll<BR>
> have to leave this giant ship of yours behind, we only<BR>
> have the space for people and a small piece of luggage<BR>
> each. Maybe if you're lucky you can hire someone to<BR>
> come out and salvage this antique of yours..."<BR>
<BR>
Dig up a copy of the WesterFilk Collection (volume I, which has been<BR>
reprinted in the last few years). Check out a song titled "Space is<BR>
Dark". It's sung by a member of the crew of a sleeper ship. The captain<BR>
as I recall.<BR>
<BR>
They woke up, and started monitoring the sensors as they made the<BR>
approach to the system. As they came near the planet in the life zone,<BR>
they picked up a radio transmission. One that had to be aimed at them.<BR>
That shocked them. What shocked them worse was that it was in English.<BR>
<BR>
It explained that *ten years* after they'd set out, the hyperdrive was<BR>
invented. But due to the way it worked, it (like jump drive) was<BR>
essentially useless for searching for their ship. <BR>
<BR>
So they'd given up everything they'd known, and spent a century or two<BR>
in cold sleep, only to find the world long colonized when they arrived.<BR>
<BR>
Even so, they are hailed as heroes when they arrive. But they quickly<BR>
find that they don't fit in, and have no useful skills. One by one,<BR>
they commit suicide. The singer and his wife are the last. And he's<BR>
about to join her in ending it too. <BR>
<BR>
The chorus of the song is:<BR>
<BR>
Space is dark, and space is deep<BR>
And the price we've paid is far too steep.<BR>
Though we've gained a hero's name<BR>
We're all cripples just the same<BR>
And the scars we bear will testify<BR>
To the pain we found beyond the sky...<BR>
<BR>
This is another one of those things you can use to turn a minor,<BR>
somewhat interesting "news item" ("Sleeper ship arrives at XXX after<BR>
100 year trip) into something that'll make your universe *real* to the<BR>
players. <BR>
<BR>
I don't know of any commercial tape that has the song on it, but the<BR>
songbook I mention includes music and guitar chords.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 00:29:35 -0500<BR>
From: "Ross Coburn" <rosscoburn@earthlink.net><BR>
Subject: Map: Domain of Deneb<BR>
<BR>
Hi once again TML members,<BR>
<BR>
I have a map, slightly smaller than the Spinward Marches map in MT, white<BR>
ink on black paper, depicting the Domain of Deneb.<BR>
<BR>
My question to you, list members, is:<BR>
<BR>
What product did it come from?<BR>
<BR>
I am bursting my brain trying to find it.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Thanks,<BR>
<BR>
Ross Coburn<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 00:31:29 -0500<BR>
From: "Ross Coburn" <rosscoburn@earthlink.net><BR>
Subject: TNE Regency Sourcebook<BR>
<BR>
There is a copy of same (as well as some other TNE material) at my local <BR>
gaming store.<BR>
<BR>
If there is anyone on the list looking for same, let me know and I will see<BR>
what they're charging for it next time I drop by.<BR>
<BR>
If there's anything else people are looking for, this stuff is unsold, in<BR>
good condition etc.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Take care,<BR>
<BR>
Ross Coburn<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 00:06:59 -0600<BR>
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: Re: TNE Regency Sourcebook<BR>
<BR>
Ross Coburn wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> There is a copy of same (as well as some other TNE material) at my local<BR>
> gaming store.<BR>
> <BR>
> If there is anyone on the list looking for same, let me know and I will see<BR>
> what they're charging for it next time I drop by.<BR>
> <BR>
> If there's anything else people are looking for, this stuff is unsold, in<BR>
> good condition etc.<BR>
<BR>
How can we contact this store?<BR>
<BR>
A suggestion:<BR>
<BR>
It would be a _good_ thing if TMLers posted information about OOP<BR>
materials at their various FLGSs, along with ways to contact said FLGSs.<BR>
<BR>
For instance, I know that my FLGS (Little Wars, in Baton Rouge, LA) has<BR>
a copy or two of FF&S1, plus a couple of other TNE books (I don't recall<BR>
which ones offhand), for sale at cover price.  Little Wars also has a<BR>
couple of T4 books in stock (I don't know which ones are still in<BR>
stock), which are being sold at a discount.<BR>
<BR>
Little Wars can be reached online at:<BR>
<BR>
http://www.littlewars.com<BR>
<BR>
The manager of Little Wars has told me that he has been contacted about<BR>
(and has sold) OOP Traveller materials, based on my previous posts to<BR>
the TML.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 00:07:47 -0600<BR>
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Crossing Worlds<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
<<snip>><BR>
> <BR>
> Dig up a copy of the WesterFilk Collection (volume I, which has been<BR>
> reprinted in the last few years). Check out a song titled "Space is<BR>
> Dark". It's sung by a member of the crew of a sleeper ship. The captain<BR>
> as I recall.<BR>
> <BR>
> They woke up, and started monitoring the sensors as they made the<BR>
> approach to the system. As they came near the planet in the life zone,<BR>
> they picked up a radio transmission. One that had to be aimed at them.<BR>
> That shocked them. What shocked them worse was that it was in English.<BR>
> <BR>
> It explained that *ten years* after they'd set out, the hyperdrive was<BR>
> invented. But due to the way it worked, it (like jump drive) was<BR>
> essentially useless for searching for their ship.<BR>
> <BR>
> So they'd given up everything they'd known, and spent a century or two<BR>
> in cold sleep, only to find the world long colonized when they arrived.<BR>
> <BR>
> Even so, they are hailed as heroes when they arrive. But they quickly<BR>
> find that they don't fit in, and have no useful skills. One by one,<BR>
> they commit suicide. The singer and his wife are the last. And he's<BR>
> about to join her in ending it too.<BR>
<BR>
<<snip>><BR>
<BR>
Damn.<BR>
<BR>
At least in the Spinward Marches, there would be worlds that would<BR>
welcome these heroes; with their TL 8-9 skills, they would be a<BR>
_windfall_ to many systems in the SM.  Similarly, there are perfectly<BR>
habitable (and underpopulated) worlds in the SM (such as my "landgrab"<BR>
world of Leander) that would be a suitable home for these pioneers.<BR>
<BR>
A compassionate (or wise) polity would give them "free" passage to such<BR>
a world.<BR>
<BR>
The cost of such passage would be recouped in two main ways:<BR>
<BR>
1.  Extensive interviews with the colonists, to provide historical<BR>
background.<BR>
<BR>
2.  The colony ships themselves, as museum ships or research objects.<BR>
<BR>
<<snip>><BR>
<BR>
Hmmm.  This may provide some background for Leander's colonization.  Or<BR>
not.  I'll have to contemplate this a bit, before I'm sure....<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 00:01:07 -0600<BR>
From: Jimmy Simpson <nimrod@santech.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Map: Domain of Deneb<BR>
<BR>
At 12:29 AM 3/31/00 -0500, you wrote:<BR>
>Hi once again TML members,<BR>
><BR>
>I have a map, slightly smaller than the Spinward Marches map in MT, white<BR>
>ink on black paper, depicting the Domain of Deneb.<BR>
><BR>
>My question to you, list members, is:<BR>
><BR>
>What product did it come from?<BR>
><BR>
>I am bursting my brain trying to find it.<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
>Thanks,<BR>
><BR>
>Ross Coburn<BR>
It came out of MegaTraveller Journal #1 (or possibly #2, one of them had <BR>
the map and the other the interstellar data).  This was the followup <BR>
magazine to Travellers' Digest after the Grand Tour was completed.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Jimmy Simpson<BR>
	nimrodd@fastlane.net<BR>
"Cannot say.<BR>
  Saying, I would know.<BR>
  Do not know.<BR>
  So cannot say."<BR>
		-Zathras (Babylon 5)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 21:10:23 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Crossing Worlds<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> S3 - Expedition to the Barrier Peaks was a tournament adventure that was<BR>
> used to introduce Metamorphosis Alpha to the world.<BR>
<BR>
I beg to differ. The original release of MA predated *Traveller*, much<BR>
less AD&D. S3 was something like 10 *years* later. And the "re-release"<BR>
of MA must have been *well* after that. <BR>
<BR>
> It's not an accident<BR>
> that the module was similar in many ways, and it's pretty much a given that<BR>
> the segment of the ship that crashlanded on Greyhawk was part of the Warden.<BR>
<BR>
I suspect not. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 21:12:44 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Crossing Worlds<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> In mail you write:<BR>
><BR>
>>The players discover a *huge* derelict ship drifting thru space. It's<BR>
>>the USS Warden... <eg><BR>
>><BR>
>>(let's see how many folks are old enough to remember *that*)<BR>
>><BR>
>>Oh, the fun when they board it...<BR>
><BR>
> The horror! The horror! Your average Traveller player would expect a<BR>
> semi-realistic location and reasonably powered opponents. The Warden would<BR>
> give them deadly cherry trees, Death Field Generation, De-evolution (this<BR>
> one could be really fun with Vargr) and the lovely Life Leech.<BR>
><BR>
> Alternately, you could have the players run into a rogue Death Machine from<BR>
> Gamma World on some random planet. I remember a Dragon editorial about a<BR>
> tournament that the various employees at TSR had. They took various gods<BR>
> from Deities and Demigods and fought each other. James Ward had entered a<BR>
> Death Machine and handily defeated all of them. :)<BR>
<BR>
Sounds like an "article" from one of the 7 issues of "The Stategic<BR>
Review" or an *early* issue of The Dragon. The players are debating<BR>
what sort of figures/rules should be allowed into the "mix and match"<BR>
game they are setting up. Finally, they decide on rules that restrict<BR>
them to any historcal or fantasy sword weilding culture.<BR>
<BR>
The narrator graciously allows everyone else to set out their<BR>
miniatures first. Then he gets this *evil* grin and picks up a box. The<BR>
other players start twitching, as it begins to dawn on them that<BR>
they've been mousetrapped.<BR>
<BR>
He starts going on about how no one could doubt that Edgar Rice<BR>
Burrough is practically the *father* of modern fantasy. The players<BR>
start looking at the box as if it contains live cobras.<BR>
<BR>
He continues, and, of *course* Burroughs *best* fantasies involved<BR>
Barsoom, and Barsoomians were most definitely a "sword-weilding<BR>
culture". <BR>
<BR>
And then to the utter dismay of the rest of the players, he sets out a<BR>
group of Green Martians, complete with swords *and* radium rifles.<BR>
<BR>
Of course they utterly slaughtered everyone else.<BR>
<BR>
ObTrav:<BR>
<BR>
Just for fun, create a system with Amtor (the Venus of Burrough's<BR>
Carson of Venus stories), "Luna" (the moon of "The Moon Maid" and "The<BR>
Moon Men", and Barsoom in it. Luna can be orbiting an Earthlike world<BR>
that's either an inside out Pellucidar, or one big "Land That Time<BR>
Forgot". <BR>
<BR>
Don't worry *too* much about getting this all inside the life zone.<BR>
From the descriptions in the stories, Amtor is actually *outside* the<BR>
life zone (too close to the star) given the description of the effects<BR>
on the (fortunately rare) occasions that there are breaks in all three<BR>
(or was it four?) cloud layers in the same place. <BR>
<BR>
Blinding white light, laying waste to the vegetation and horribly<BR>
burning animals that can't get away.<BR>
<BR>
Obviously, the planetary albedo is *very* high, and that compensates.<BR>
Even so, the equator is almost uninhabitable, the "temperate zones are<BR>
tropical, and the poles are temperate.<BR>
<BR>
Oh yeah, I think Burroughs may have also written a story set on one of<BR>
Jupiter's moons. :-)<BR>
<BR>
Just use a brown dwarf, so the moon will be warm enough, but still get<BR>
most of its *light* from the star. Hmmm... that's an interesting<BR>
thought. A world where the "warm/cold" cycle and "light/dark" cycle<BR>
*aren't* connected.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2223<BR>
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From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
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Subject: Traveller-digest V1999 #2223<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2224</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
Date:	3/31/00 3:10:18 AM Pacific Standard Time<BR>
From:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
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Traveller-digest       Friday, March 31 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2224<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Crossing Worlds<BR>
Re: Crossing Worlds<BR>
Re: Border crossings<BR>
Re: Grav Powered Floating Cities<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2215<BR>
RE: GT:Starports & Classic Reprints!<BR>
RE: Crossing Worlds<BR>
RE: Crossing Worlds<BR>
RE: Crossing Worlds<BR>
re:Map: Domain of Deneb<BR>
Re: GDW boardgames<BR>
RE: Grav Powered Floating Cities<BR>
RE: Crossing Worlds<BR>
Dulinor went down to capitol<BR>
Re: FS Grav Tower<BR>
Re: Crossing Worlds<BR>
Dungeon surprise<BR>
Re: Drop Tanks<BR>
Re Penal Colonies<BR>
RE: TL<BR>
Re: GDW boardgames<BR>
Re: Primordials: MT revealed plotlines (LONG) (  =?iso-8859-1?Q?Ref=B4s?= Only)<BR>
Re: Map: Domain of Deneb<BR>
Re: Grav-powered floating cities II<BR>
Re: 876-574<BR>
Re: Grav-powered floating cities II<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 21:31:14 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Crossing Worlds<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Alternately, you could have the players run into a rogue Death Machine from<BR>
> Gamma World on some random planet.<BR>
<BR>
Naw, let them find the world that OGRE & GEV are set on...<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 21:35:43 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Crossing Worlds<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Jesse LaBranche wrote:<BR>
>> <BR>
> <<snip>><BR>
><BR>
>>     Curiousity just got the better of me and I'm going to have to ask...<BR>
>> Has anyone brought TSR's various worlds into Traveller?<BR>
><BR>
> Not quite.  However, I _did_ once have a Type S land on my AD&D world<BR>
> (my players at the time having also been introduced to Traveller).  The<BR>
> crew of the Type S was _more_ than happy to sell a couple of laser<BR>
> rifles to the PCs, at merely 1000 GP each.  (Bear in mind that the AD&D1<BR>
> encumbrance standard is the gold piece, at 10 GP to the _pound_, and<BR>
> you'll understand the travellers' enthusiasm.)  As the players knew that<BR>
> a laser rifle did 5D6 damage, and only needed to hit AC 10 (less magic<BR>
> bonuses to AC), the PCs were also pleased.<BR>
><BR>
> At least the travellers were honest enough to provide fully-charged<BR>
> power packs, and rudimentary weapons training.  Of course, this merely<BR>
> postponed the tragic day when the power packs ran dry....<BR>
<BR>
If the crew of the Type S saw any of the right sort of magic, they<BR>
might be willing to work out a deal involving trying to build a<BR>
recharger that converted "lightning bolts" to charge in the power<BR>
packs... <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 21:41:36 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Border crossings<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> At 06:39 PM 3/29/2000 +0100, you wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>>Isn't that against the Imperial Rules of War?<BR>
>><BR>
>>The Burger as a weapon of Mass Destruction...<BR>
><BR>
> No, that's the AAFES Gut Grenade.<BR>
><BR>
> As every US veteran in the group immediate reaches for their Pepto-Bismol<BR>
> just from rembering eating one of those monsters.<BR>
<BR>
Ok, I gotta say it. Even if it confirms some people's suspicions that<BR>
I'm an alien...<BR>
<BR>
I *liked* the burgers at the Base Exchange's cafeteria. <BR>
<BR>
Of course that *could* be because I started eating them at around age 4...<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 21:44:29 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Grav Powered Floating Cities<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Anthony Jackson wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>> If negative mass exists, you can do all sorts of things that are much more<BR>
>> interesting than CG.  I'm not sure what type of repulsive effects you're<BR>
>> talking about, gravity isn't a repulsive force<BR>
><BR>
> Even if you do accept negative mass (I personally think that it's a<BR>
> mathematical artifact from the sign ambiguity in a square root.), everything<BR>
> I have read on the subject says that it acts pretty much (not totally) like<BR>
> regular mass. It falls downward, etc. From the effects of two negative signs<BR>
> cancelling each other out.<BR>
<BR>
Not quite. F = G*M1*M2/R^2<BR>
<BR>
The force between a pair of positive mass objects is positive.<BR>
The force between a pair of negative mass objects is positive.<BR>
The force between a negative and a positive mass object is *negative*.<BR>
<BR>
Ok so far.<BR>
<BR>
F=M*A, thus F/M=A.<BR>
<BR>
A positive force on a positive mass results in a positive acceleration.<BR>
A negative force on a negative mass results in a positive acceleration.<BR>
A positive force on a negative mass results in a negative acceleration.<BR>
A negative force on a positive mass results in a negative acceleration.<BR>
<BR>
Thus, a pair of positive masses move together. <BR>
A pair of negative masses move *apart* (positive force on negative mass)<BR>
<BR>
Now consider a positive mass object and a negative mass object. <BR>
<BR>
The positive mass object experiences a *negative* force, thus it<BR>
experiences a negative acceleraton. So it moves *away* from the<BR>
negative mass object.<BR>
<BR>
The negative mass object experiences a negative force, thus it moves<BR>
*towards* the positive mass object. <BR>
<BR>
In other words, they both move in the *same* direction, at the *same*<BR>
acceleration! Forever!<BR>
<BR>
This doesn't violate any conservation laws, because the kinetic energy<BR>
and momentum of the negative mass object are *negative*. <BR>
<BR>
This may be how "thrusters" work. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 22:03:06 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2215<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> In a message dated 00-03-29 19:09:29 EST, you write:<BR>
><BR>
> << Hmmm... A fiendish idea occurs to me...<BR>
>  <BR>
>  The players discover a *huge* derelict ship drifting thru space. It's<BR>
>  the USS Warden... <eg><BR>
>   >><BR>
><BR>
> Sensors detect a giant turtle, with four elephants on it's back . . .<BR>
<BR>
Ah! But are we talking about Diskworld? Or about the SF version<BR>
(Strata, wasn't it?)<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 22:06:18 -0800<BR>
From: Jesse DeGraff <jdegraff@pacbell.net><BR>
Subject: RE: GT:Starports & Classic Reprints!<BR>
<BR>
ROFL!!!!!!<BR>
Jesse<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
[mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Bruce<BR>
Johnson<BR>
Sent: Thursday, March 30, 2000 10:04 AM<BR>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Subject: Re: GT:Starports & Classic Reprints!<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Steve Daniels wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> Stopped in at the local FLGS (Game Chest, Valley View Mall,<BR>
> Dallas, Tx).<BR>
> <BR>
> Long, black, sleek with a racing stripe: "Books 0-8: The Classic<BR>
> Books"  I am as happy as a little girl.  I've never even seen<BR>
> Merchant Prince or Robots before.  I am so glad MM did this.<BR>
> I'm going to buy at least one extra copy for myself and probably<BR>
> a couple for friends who would enjoy it.<BR>
> <BR>
> GT:Starports.  Another gorgeous cover! I nominate Jesse as the<BR>
> exclusive source of cover art for GT products!<BR>
<BR>
I _know_ that Jesse will take that two ways: happiness that you like his<BR>
art and a howl of anguish: "Noooooooooo Not MORE deadlines!!!" as he<BR>
grips his tablet stylus in bloody fingers, and stares at his screen<BR>
blurrily through the red-eyed caffeine poisoning... ;-)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Bruce Johnson<BR>
University of Arizona<BR>
College of Pharmacy<BR>
Information Technology Group<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 01:19:22 -0500<BR>
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net><BR>
Subject: RE: Crossing Worlds<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erickson said:<BR>
<BR>
>Naw, let them find the world that OGRE & GEV are set on...<BR>
<BR>
Too evil. :)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 19:08:23 +1200<BR>
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: Crossing Worlds<BR>
<BR>
> > S3 - Expedition to the Barrier Peaks was a tournament adventure that was<BR>
> > used to introduce Metamorphosis Alpha to the world.<BR>
><BR>
> I beg to differ. The original release of MA predated *Traveller*, much<BR>
> less AD&D. S3 was something like 10 *years* later. And the "re-release"<BR>
> of MA must have been *well* after that.<BR>
<BR>
While you are substantially correct, my copy of the Deluxe edition of S3 is<BR>
copyright 1980, and this edition was released some time after the original<BR>
monochrome edition. The module itself was first run at Origins II.<BR>
<BR>
So S3 is not "ten *years* later", though I agree it came after MA. which<BR>
IIRC is either the second or third published RPG.<BR>
<BR>
Frankie<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 02:11:40 -0500<BR>
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net><BR>
Subject: RE: Crossing Worlds<BR>
<BR>
I said:<BR>
<BR>
>> S3 - Expedition to the Barrier Peaks was a tournament adventure that was<BR>
>> used to introduce Metamorphosis Alpha to the world.<BR>
<BR>
Leonard said:<BR>
<BR>
>I beg to differ. The original release of MA predated *Traveller*, much<BR>
>less AD&D. S3 was something like 10 *years* later. And the "re-release"<BR>
>of MA must have been *well* after that.<BR>
<BR>
It's a good thing that you're not a betting man, Leonard. :)<BR>
<BR>
Metamorphosis Alpha was published in 1976, at least that's what my copy<BR>
says. Expedition to the Barrier Peaks was run as a tournament adventure at<BR>
Origins II which, if I recall correctly, was in 1976. The introduction to<BR>
Barrier Peaks explains the occasion of the adventure's creation, which was<BR>
the launch of Metamorphosis Alpha. If I remember the intro correctly, it's<BR>
pretty darn specific on this point.<BR>
<BR>
Incidentally, Expedition to the Barrier Peaks was first published in module<BR>
form in 1980, just 4 years after Metamorphosis Alpha was released. That's<BR>
well under 10 years. Please note that I said it was a "tournament adventure<BR>
that was used to introduce Metamorphosis Alpha to the world". I didn't say<BR>
that its appearance in 1980 as a module coincided in any way with the<BR>
release of TSR's ill-fated sci-fi game.<BR>
<BR>
>> It's not an accident<BR>
>> that the module was similar in many ways, and it's pretty much a given<BR>
that<BR>
>> the segment of the ship that crashlanded on Greyhawk was part of the<BR>
Warden.<BR>
><BR>
>I suspect not.<BR>
<BR>
Well, you can suspect what you want. Them's the facts, Leonard, like 'em or<BR>
not. :)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 08:12:33 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: re:Map: Domain of Deneb<BR>
<BR>
At 1:04 -0500 31/3/00,  "Ross Coburn" <rosscoburn@earthlink.net> wrote:<BR>
>I have a map, slightly smaller than the Spinward Marches map in MT, white<BR>
>ink on black paper, depicting the Domain of Deneb.<BR>
><BR>
>My question to you, list members, is:<BR>
>What product did it come from?<BR>
<BR>
DGP's MT Journal 1<BR>
IIRC the stats are in MT Journal 2.<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 08:10:11 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Re: GDW boardgames<BR>
<BR>
At 1:04 -0500 31/3/00, shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson) wrote:<BR>
> >    Games. Includes full text of games produced for Traveller: Mayday,<BR>
> >Snapshot, Azhanti High Lightning, Fifth Frontier War, Invasion: Earth.<BR>
> >Also includes Striker, Dark Nebula, and Imperium. Game boards and counter<BR>
> >images included.<BR>
><BR>
>  The best option is waiting for the reprint _and_ having the game, too :)<BR>
<BR>
Of course, as well as second edition Imperium you could also get <BR>
Imperium 2000 when that comes out from Avalanche(?).<BR>
<BR>
Imperium is a really great game - there is a lot of early Dragon devoted to it.<BR>
<BR>
Dom (who has inadvertantly cross propagated this thread from another list :-/ )<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 23:15:36 -0800<BR>
From: "Luther Martin" <martin@ksarul.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Grav Powered Floating Cities<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> > Even if you do accept negative mass (I personally think that it's a<BR>
> > mathematical artifact from the sign ambiguity in a square<BR>
> root.), everything<BR>
> > I have read on the subject says that it acts pretty much (not<BR>
> totally) like<BR>
> > regular mass. It falls downward, etc. From the effects of two<BR>
> negative signs<BR>
> > cancelling each other out.<BR>
><BR>
> Not quite. F = G*M1*M2/R^2<BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=14><BIG><BIG><BIG><BR>
<BR>
Nope. Take a look at http://www.concentric.net/~pvb/negmass.html for<BR>
example.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 02:36:08 -0500<BR>
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net><BR>
Subject: RE: Crossing Worlds<BR>
<BR>
Frank Pitt said:<BR>
<BR>
> While you are substantially correct, my copy of the Deluxe edition of S3<BR>
is<BR>
> copyright 1980, and this edition was released some time after the original<BR>
> monochrome edition. The module itself was first run at Origins II.<BR>
<BR>
S3 never had a monochrome / pastel edition. It was first published in 1980,<BR>
which was the year TSR switched to color covers.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 13:08:16 -0900<BR>
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Dulinor went down to capitol<BR>
<BR>
>Note: This one scans very strangely if you aren't familiar with the<BR>
>original. The song changes tempo several times.<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
>Dulinor Went Down to Capital<BR>
><BR>
>Douglas Berry<BR>
<BR>
Doug, it scans a little strange even if one IS familiar with the song.<BR>
<BR>
William F. Hostman  |  "Smith & Wesson: THe original Point and Click<BR>
interface!"<BR>
Aramis 0602 C55A364-C S kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge-<BR>
533<BR>
aramis@gci.net http://home.gci.net/~aramis Vilani: uilamaanamti sirohbrankilin<BR>
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn- t4-- tt+ to- tg-- ru+ ge 3i+ c+ jt-() au+ st- ls<BR>
pi+() ta+ he+(-) kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge- pi+<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 00:08:07 -0800<BR>
From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@worldnet.att.net><BR>
Subject: Re: FS Grav Tower<BR>
<BR>
Bruce Johnson wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> You know, it really isn't truly an FS product until there's a 6G version<BR>
> ;-)<BR>
<BR>
  Make that 12+ G...<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 03:18:13 -0500<BR>
From: "DaveShayne" <daveshayne@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Crossing Worlds<BR>
<BR>
>Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 21:10:23 PST<BR>
>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
>Subject: Re: Crossing Worlds<BR>
><BR>
>In mail you write:<BR>
><BR>
>> S3 - Expedition to the Barrier Peaks was a tournament adventure that was<BR>
>> used to introduce Metamorphosis Alpha to the world.<BR>
><BR>
>I beg to differ. The original release of MA predated *Traveller*, much<BR>
>less AD&D. S3 was something like 10 *years* later. And the "re-release"<BR>
>of MA must have been *well* after that.<BR>
<BR>
From the preface to S3 Expedition to the Barrier Peaks:<BR>
 "This module was begun early in 1976 when TSR was contem-<BR>
  plating publication of a science fantasy role playing game. Jim<BR>
  Ward had already shown us some rough notes on META-<BR>
  MORPHOSIS ALPHA; I thought it would be a splendid idea to<BR>
  introduce Jim's game at Origins II, and introduce the concept to<BR>
  D&D players by means of the tournament scenario." - Gary Gygax.<BR>
<BR>
The published S3 was an adaptation for AD&D and intended to<BR>
bolster interest in a new edition of MA and Gamma World.<BR>
<BR>
>> It's not an accident<BR>
>> that the module was similar in many ways, and it's pretty much a given<BR>
that<BR>
>> the segment of the ship that crashlanded on Greyhawk was part of the<BR>
Warden.<BR>
><BR>
>I suspect not.<BR>
<BR>
there is no evidence one way or another regarding the name of the starship<BR>
from S3. The part of the ship from the module is stated to be a small<BR>
fraction<BR>
of a larger ship though.<BR>
<BR>
Dave Shayne<BR>
<BR>
"Now the workers have struck for fame<BR>
    cuz Lennon's on sale again." - David Bowie<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 09:55:04 +1000<BR>
From: "Karen and Michael Hughes" <kmhughes@dynamite.com.au><BR>
Subject: Dungeon surprise<BR>
<BR>
<< Thanks. I suppose that it's obvious that I'm the type of guy who had<BR>
 the inhabitants of the "dungeon" start organizing to deal with the<BR>
 adventurers in D&D? >><BR>
<BR>
Back when I ran D&D, the party encountered a little guy with a pushcart and<BR>
a<BR>
broom and a HUGE ring of keys.<BR>
<BR>
LKW<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
How much XP was he worth?<BR>
<BR>
SEC: Michael<BR>
<BR>
Ob Trav; Loren started it so it doesn't count.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 00:25:55 -0800<BR>
From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@worldnet.att.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Drop Tanks<BR>
<BR>
R.D. Elliott wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>         Break out Uncle Vilaashii's Best BBQ Sauce(tm)..:)<BR>
<BR>
I prefer the Hot And Sweet, You?<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
Evyn...<BR>
<BR>
C-Space home http://home.att.net/~wmacdude/<BR>
<BR>
Get six jolly cowboys to carry my coffin<BR>
Get six pretty maidens to bear up my pall<BR>
Bunches of roses all over my coffin<BR>
Roses to deaden the clods as they fall<BR>
 Laredo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 00:08:01 -0900<BR>
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re Penal Colonies<BR>
<BR>
>> How about a Penal colony?<BR>
><BR>
>Better :)  Some native northwestern Indian tribes used to "banish" their<BR>
>criminals to remote islands where they were to live off of the land with<BR>
>little additional help (shelter was sometimes provided), until such a time<BR>
>as their sentence was lifted and they were returned to the tribe.  One<BR>
>local "tribe" did this with a few youths just a few years ago, IIRC.  I<BR>
>think the lesson was that you don't prey on the community that takes care<BR>
>of you.<BR>
><BR>
>PS: The only excuse I hate more than the "failing Long Night colony" excuse<BR>
>is the "surviving using failing Ancient tech" excuse :)<BR>
><BR>
Change "used to" to "Still use" ... Two alaskan native youth were banished<BR>
to an island about a year ago, with materials for a prefab log cabin, a<BR>
woodstove, cooking and fishing gear, and bowie knives. Sentenced by the<BR>
village elders, upheld by the Alaska Supreme Court. The US Supreme court<BR>
refused to hear the case. IIRC, 9th Circut also refused to hear it. They<BR>
get checked on by AkDOC about every other week. They should have half<BR>
completed the banishment by now.<BR>
<BR>
William F. Hostman  |  "Smith & Wesson: THe original Point and Click<BR>
interface!"<BR>
Aramis 0602 C55A364-C S kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge-<BR>
533<BR>
aramis@gci.net http://home.gci.net/~aramis Vilani: uilamaanamti sirohbrankilin<BR>
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn- t4-- tt+ to- tg-- ru+ ge 3i+ c+ jt-() au+ st- ls<BR>
pi+() ta+ he+(-) kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge- pi+<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 17:22:54 -0800<BR>
From: "Antony Farrell" <Skaran@bigpond.com><BR>
Subject: RE: TL<BR>
<BR>
Its a well known fact that the tech level of a world is dependent upon what<BR>
the scout team surveying the world says it is. If the socut service says<BR>
your world is TL9 then it is TL9 despite the manufacturing capacity for TL15<BR>
Waffle Makers.<BR>
<BR>
Antony<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 02:10:06 +0200<BR>
From: Volker Greimann <volker@greimann.de><BR>
Subject: Re: GDW boardgames<BR>
<BR>
>At Titan Games, Imperium is currently available new for $15.  Although<BR>
>the Web site doesn't say, I suspect that the copy or copies they have<BR>
>are the second GDW edition (4-piece hardback game board, slightly<BR>
>smaller than the folded-paper 1st edition map).<BR>
><BR>
>There's plenty of other Traveller material there, too.<BR>
<BR>
The German edition of Imperium usually goes for 5$ in all local gaming stores.<BR>
Seems the publisher had overestimated demand by a long shot ....<BR>
- ---<BR>
Volker A. Greimann<BR>
greimann@geocities.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 02:16:37 +0200<BR>
From: Volker Greimann <volker@greimann.de><BR>
Subject: Re: Primordials: MT revealed plotlines (LONG) (  =?iso-8859-1?Q?Ref=B4s?= Only)<BR>
<BR>
At 00:12 31.03.00, you wrote:<BR>
>On Thu, 30 Mar 2000 19:37:05 +0200, Volker Greimann wrote:<BR>
><BR>
> > At 15:54 28.03.00, you wrote:<BR>
> > >Hyphen wrote:<BR>
> > ><BR>
> > > > The "Baddies From The Core" plotline - that is, who were the<BR>
> > > Primordials that<BR>
> > > > were seen in "Knightfall".<BR>
><BR>
>Thankyou!Thankyou!Thankyou!Thankyou!Thankyou!Thankyou!Thankyou!Thankyou!<BR>
<BR>
You are very welcome...<BR>
<BR>
I always feel that not using a copyright for years, and showing that one <BR>
does not want to use it in the future, gives us the moral obligation to <BR>
help wear that copyright down...<BR>
<BR>
... so I hope the unmentionable R.S. gets of his @$$ and reestablishes <BR>
negotiations with MM, or more posts of DGP-materials (but only those of <BR>
DGP) might just follow along...  ;-)<BR>
<BR>
(Having just tested my OCR, i found it pretty easy to do as well-took only <BR>
5 minutes)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Lets make the DGPs stuff public again... If Rodger wont do it, we can!<BR>
- ---<BR>
Volker A. Greimann<BR>
greimann@geocities.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 10:59:21 +0100<BR>
From: "Derrick Jones" <dojones.whitestar@btinternet.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Map: Domain of Deneb<BR>
<BR>
Ross wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>I have a map, slightly smaller than the Spinward Marches map in MT, white<BR>
>ink on black paper, depicting the Domain of Deneb.<BR>
>My question to you, list members, is:<BR>
>What product did it come from?<BR>
<BR>
It sounds suspiciously like the map from MTJ #1 or #2 (can never remember<BR>
which - one had data, one had the map IIRC)<BR>
<BR>
>I am bursting my brain trying to find it.<BR>
<BR>
I don't believe you want to do that......<BR>
<BR>
cheers<BR>
<BR>
Derrick<BR>
<BR>
Derrick Jones<BR>
St Helens<BR>
Lancashire UK<BR>
http://www.btinternet.com/~dojones.whitestar<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 20:06:18 +1000<BR>
From: "Katharine Whitchurch" <katts@globalfreeway.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re: Grav-powered floating cities II<BR>
<BR>
> From: Ingo Heinscher <Hiroshi.Estigarribia@gmx.de><BR>
> Subject: Re: Grav-powered floating cities II<BR>
> Ok, what will such a GPFC cost?<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
The FS Grav Tower came it at MCr 1.25, plus the cost of the 200 large<BR>
staterooms, so I guess we could just multiply about KCr 10 by how many<BR>
people we want the city for.<BR>
<BR>
BTW, I made a slight error. It goes at a very stately 35 km per hour.<BR>
<BR>
The 6 gee version is going to be preceded by the propellor-beanie inspired<BR>
design.<BR>
<BR>
Ian Whitchurch<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 20:28:39 +1000<BR>
From: "Katharine Whitchurch" <katts@globalfreeway.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re: 876-574<BR>
<BR>
> From: "James W. Lindsay" <jlindsay@home.com><BR>
> Subject: Re: Canon data on Five Sisters/876-574?<BR>
><BR>
> On Wed, 29 Mar 2000 18:13:38 EST, Qstor@aol.com wrote:<BR>
><BR>
> > Is there anything in the TNE or MT books? I don't own those.<BR>
><BR>
> Nothing in the Regency Sourcebook.  The "numbers" I have match those in<BR>
the<BR>
> CT material (including stellar data).  Judging by the BtC write-up, I can<BR>
> see your interest in 876-574 ;)<BR>
><BR>
> Looks like you're free to develop this world however you see fit without<BR>
> contradicting published material :D<BR>
<BR>
I dont know about canon, but I put this in my "Corporations in 5<BR>
Sisters/District 286" post ...<BR>
<BR>
Arguvid Trading LLP : Originally based on Naval Supply contracts between<BR>
Darrians the the various naval  bases in the Five Sisters. Later went into<BR>
general shipping. They are backing the young colonies on Jinx, Wonderay,<BR>
769-422 and 876-574.<BR>
<BR>
Ian Whitchurch<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 22:09:21 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Grav-powered floating cities II<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Not really. For instance, many places in the Midwest pose little<BR>
> earthquake danger,<BR>
<BR>
Three words: "New Madrid fault"<BR>
<BR>
In other words, that should be no *known* earthquake danger.<BR>
<BR>
> There's an idea. Want to do weather control? Then you have to do things<BR>
> like control the Gulf Stream, El Nino, The Humbolt Current, the<BR>
> greenhouse effect...these are _planetary_ scale phenomena. Do you know<BR>
> how many terawatts it would take to alter the temperature of the smaller<BR>
> of these oceanic currents?<BR>
<BR>
One of the interesting things to come out of chaos studies is the idea<BR>
that you can control that sort of thing by making the right sorts of<BR>
*tiny* changes. Being chaotic systems, the weather systems will<BR>
*amplify* the changes for you.<BR>
<BR>
And if some *other* tiny change damps out yours you just make another<BR>
to compensate. <BR>
<BR>
This sort of weather control should be possible in the not too distant<BR>
future. And it'd be rather subtle, in its way. It'd also be less likely<BR>
to result in major disruptions if you quit doing it, since rather than<BR>
trying to *counter* the "stresses", you'd be *steering* them. Thus,<BR>
there'd be no big imbalances left over to cause major storms.<BR>
<BR>
So, you'd just make lots of little storms instead of a few big ones. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2224<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2225</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
Date:	3/31/00 8:35:41 AM Pacific Standard Time<BR>
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Traveller-digest       Friday, March 31 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2225<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: can "habitable" worlds exist around M-V stars?<BR>
Re: can "habitable" worlds exist around M-V stars?<BR>
Re: More Cool Maps<BR>
Re: Grav mechanics(was:Re: Grav Powered Floating Cities)<BR>
Re: Grav Powered Floating Cities<BR>
Re: Grav-powered floating cities II<BR>
ATTN: Paul Sanders, Lost Keith Suppliments<BR>
Re: Crossing Worlds<BR>
Weather control was Re: Grav-powered floating cities II<BR>
Re: can "habitable" worlds exist around M-V stars?<BR>
RE: TL<BR>
Re: Crossing Worlds<BR>
Re: MA<BR>
Re: Janitor<BR>
Re: GDW boardgames<BR>
Re: RS<BR>
Re: Dulinor went down to capitol<BR>
RE: TML LAND GRAB - How long do we have?<BR>
Foreven Sector<BR>
Re: RS<BR>
Re: TL<BR>
Re: Notes on building Heya<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 22:27:17 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: can "habitable" worlds exist around M-V stars?<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Granted, TL7 would be enough to survive on such a world.  My "problem" is<BR>
> that TL7 might not be enough to *create* that settlement.  Others have<BR>
> already given excellent possibilities, like contracted construction, a<BR>
> penal colony for a higher tech neighbour, etc.  I just don't particularly<BR>
> like the "pre Long Night" colony theory with its tidy "TL reduction" idea.<BR>
> I would prefer to use that "excuse" for the truly unusual worlds, like<BR>
> Rethe.<BR>
<BR>
I'm fairly sure this has already been said, but perhaps not explicitly.<BR>
And it bears repeating anyway. <BR>
<BR>
It's *often* more cost effective to build a colony at a TL that *they*<BR>
can maintain locally, rather than at your current TL. It saves a *lot*<BR>
of shipping, as well as a lot of traffic shipping parts or broken gear<BR>
back and forth.<BR>
<BR>
So I'd actually *expect* to find a lot of worlds that needed igher tech<BR>
to be *established*, but not to survive. <BR>
<BR>
I wouldn't even *begin* to consider a world unusual unless it requires<BR>
an "artificial environment" and the TL is below TL*4*. <BR>
<BR>
Even so, *I* could probably design a colony for such a world that was<BR>
sustainable with TL 1. But if there was a major structural failure, I<BR>
don't think it'd be fixable. <BR>
<BR>
Yes, a "TL 1" vacc suit is stretching things a lot. But the idea is<BR>
that they can *make* the materials with TL 1 tech, even if they can't<BR>
*design* them. They just follow the recipes in the books the master<BR>
craftsmen hand down from generation to generation.<BR>
<BR>
Want a fun one to explain? I just noticed a world with *no* population,<BR>
but listed as TL-2! Hex 1214 in Spinward marches.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 22:45:47 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: can "habitable" worlds exist around M-V stars?<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>> Tsarina has<BR>
>> 3 million people on a rockball with very thin atmosphere and no water, at<BR>
>> TL 5.<BR>
><BR>
> TL5 would be harder to explain...<BR>
<BR>
1900-1939 tech? Not a problem. It'd be *crude*, but doable.<BR>
<BR>
As I said elsewhere, I see no real problem with TL *4* on *vacuum*<BR>
worlds as long as they have ice. Solar boilers drive steam engines,<BR>
which generate electrical power to convert water into oxygen and<BR>
hydrogen. They use those to heat smaller boilers at night. <BR>
<BR>
For a TL-5 version, try to find a copy of John W. Campbell's "The Moon<BR>
Is Hell", and ignore the food synthesis stuff. <BR>
<BR>
For TL-3 and below, either they are remains of a higher TL culture, or<BR>
descendants some sort of "social experiment" group. And I draw the<BR>
limit at TL-1.<BR>
<BR>
TL-0 cultures just plain *don't* have the toolmaking skills. So they<BR>
couldn't do *any* maintenance, meaning that they are at the mercy of<BR>
the quality of likely *ancient* construction, and almost certain to be<BR>
wiped out at the first natural disaster.<BR>
<BR>
But I'd like to see a misjumped ship encounter descendants of the sort<BR>
of folks described in Fritz Lieber's classic "A Pail of Air". Basicly,<BR>
a planet (Earth, in the story) gets ejected from its system due to an<BR>
encounter with another star (possible, but unlikely as hell). The<BR>
planet is out around Pluto and still moving out. The atmosphere has<BR>
frozen solid. Yet there are still some survivors...<BR>
<BR>
"Sir, I think that's the remains of a *city* under that drifted snow."<BR>
"You mean..."<BR>
"Yeah, this place must have been inhabited before it wound up out here..."<BR>
"Poor bastards. Freezing to death and no way out..."<BR>
<BR>
"Sir! I'm getting IR hot spots in some of those buildings!"<BR>
<BR>
<grin><BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 23:28:48 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: More Cool Maps<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Via electronic medium on 3/28/00 7:22 PM, shadow@krypton.rain.com issued<BR>
> forth:<BR>
><BR>
>> I've got several files that someone on the list sent me. They are all<BR>
>> the same "form" at different resolutions or formats. Let me know which<BR>
>> one(s) you want. <BR>
><BR>
> Thank you for the response, I'd go for the three GIF's. You were mentioning<BR>
> PNG's earlier-- I tired fooling around with them and found that the drop in<BR>
> file size was significant as you said, but when I tried to view it with<BR>
> Netscape, she crashed. Not the system, just Netscape, any ideas why?<BR>
<BR>
Neither Netscape nor IE are designed as graphics viewers. They can<BR>
display "typical" graphics found on web pages, but they'll never<BR>
compare with a dedicated graphics viewer.<BR>
<BR>
You may need an update, or Netscape may need to work on its PNG<BR>
support. <BR>
<BR>
> I had<BR>
> converted a GIF to PNG with Graphic Converter. The drop in file size would<BR>
> be great fot gaming maps, as they tend to multipy as campaigns progress.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 22:04:18 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Grav mechanics(was:Re: Grav Powered Floating Cities)<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Leonard Erickson writes:<BR>
><BR>
>> Well, since they violate conservation of energy *and* conservation of<BR>
>> momentum, there's no real *point* in trying to justify them. Because<BR>
>> they are flat out impossible. <BR>
>> <BR>
>> On the other hand CG doesn't violate any laws of physics. Neither does<BR>
>> the (limited) artificial gravity inside ships.<BR>
><BR>
> Actually, CG violates quite a few laws of physics, including conservation of<BR>
> energy.<BR>
<BR>
It only violate conservation of energy if you don't have to supply<BR>
energy to counter the gain in potential energy as an object is "lifted"<BR>
in the gravity well.<BR>
<BR>
I think you are *assuming* things about CG that aren't in the rules or<BR>
background. <BR>
<BR>
> Assuming you could develop such a thing, a 'pressor' style of<BR>
> CG (which actually presses against an object, and has nothing to do with<BR>
> gravity per se) doesn't have to violate physics, but its power consumption<BR>
> would be variable and frequently much higher than is given for standard CG.<BR>
<BR>
One of my takes on CG is that it (in effect) takes the slope in the<BR>
"rubber sheet" gravity well model, and makes a sort of "step" in it. We<BR>
don't know *how* to do that, but there's nothing that says a *locally*<BR>
flat area of spacetime is impossible. Just be careful around the<BR>
boundaries.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 02:33:08 -0900<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Grav Powered Floating Cities<BR>
<BR>
shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) wrote<BR>
<BR>
> consider a positive mass object and a negative mass object. <BR>
> The positive mass object experiences a *negative* force, thus it<BR>
> experiences a negative acceleraton. So it moves *away* from the<BR>
> negative mass object.<BR>
> The negative mass object experiences a negative force, thus it moves<BR>
> *towards* the positive mass object. <BR>
> In other words, they both move in the *same* direction, at the *same*<BR>
> acceleration! Forever!<BR>
> This doesn't violate any conservation laws, because the kinetic energy<BR>
> and momentum of the negative mass object are *negative*. <BR>
> This may be how "thrusters" work. <BR>
<BR>
So by this theory the spaceship would have a positive<BR>
mass and the thruster plates would, when charged up,<BR>
have a negative mass?<BR>
<BR>
In that case what's the difference between contragravity<BR>
(which supposedly works poorly outside a g field),<BR>
antigravity (TL 9 half thrust beyond 10 diameters),<BR>
and a thruster plate (full thrust everywhere)<BR>
<BR>
More importantly how will the concept of negative mass<BR>
affect the possibility of accelerating ships to near C<BR>
velocities and punching them into planets?<BR>
<g,d,r><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 14:34:10 +0200<BR>
From: Ingo Heinscher <Hiroshi.Estigarribia@gmx.de><BR>
Subject: Re: Grav-powered floating cities II<BR>
<BR>
At 22:22 30.03.00 -0600, Stormhound wrote:<BR>
>Ingo Heinscher wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>> What will be the risk of failure, realistically? (There will be risk,<BR>
>> though probably a small one).<BR>
>><BR>
>> I'd say that the insurance company would try to make a profit, so... what<BR>
>> would they want for insuring such a site? (Any gearheads ready to build<BR>
>> something larger than a tower? :) )<BR>
<BR>
[snip]<BR>
>    Personally, if you make the assumption that grav edifices are in fairly<BR>
>common use, and are reliable and safe, I see no reason why you can't<BR>
assume that<BR>
>the insurance would be fairly cheap...on the order of homeowner's/renter's<BR>
>insurance, which should run under 1/2% per year of the cost of the<BR>
>home/valuables, depending upon other factors with which I shan't bore the<BR>
list.<BR>
>That's still a set of assumptions, however, and YMMV.<BR>
<BR>
So what is 1/2 % [or whatever one would choose to be appropriate] of the<BR>
value of a grav-city apartment?<BR>
<BR>
Really no gearheads? On the TML? <BR>
<BR>
Sic transit gloria mundi...<BR>
:-)<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
"This was not meant to be an aggresssion against the Siru Zirka. But we had<BR>
to organize our affairs a bit more efficiently. To be honest, we have had<BR>
to do this for almost 300 years by now."<BR>
unknown Terran politician, -2398 Imp<BR>
;-) ingo heinscher <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 08:30:09 -0500 (EST)<BR>
From: William Prankard <cmdrx@magicnet.net><BR>
Subject: ATTN: Paul Sanders, Lost Keith Suppliments<BR>
<BR>
Just wanted to confirm that I had received the Lost Keith Suppliments last<BR>
week.<BR>
And wow!  Well worth the wait! ;-)<BR>
<BR>
All packaged nicely in a big case-like envelope.  I like the goodies that<BR>
came with it.<BR>
Bumber sticker for the air-raft?  A real Letter of Marque from Sir Keith<BR>
himself!  Excellent!<BR>
<BR>
This took  me back about 15 years,  so much that I decided to start a CT<BR>
game using the suppliments.<BR>
I got the wife involved!  Yes!  I have converted her!  I think she is<BR>
going to be an Imperial Scout "gone native" and become a  Caledonian<BR>
Privateer.  Should be interesting.<BR>
<BR>
One thing to note:  GURPS has a GT:Corsairs book on their wish list.  I<BR>
would love to see some of the material from the Keith's incorporated into<BR>
this.<BR>
<BR>
Again thanks, this is great stuff.<BR>
<BR>
\  // Commander X<BR>
 \//  CEO X-TEK Industries of Deneb, LIC<BR>
T E K  Starship Contractor & High Energy Weapons Research<BR>
 //\  http://www.magicnet.net/~cmdrx/xtek/xtek.htm<BR>
//  \ 0608 D557777-A kk- va+ so+ zh+ da+ A723<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 06:41:22 -0700 (MST)<BR>
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU><BR>
Subject: Re: Crossing Worlds<BR>
<BR>
I did a bit on just such a 'lost colony' as a minor human race:<BR>
<BR>
http://www.u.arizona.edu/~bjohnson/forlorn.txt<BR>
<BR>
This was set in Milieu 0, but could probably be plopped down anywhere/when<BR>
IYTU.<BR>
<BR>
Thsi was heavily influenced by Norman Spinrad's "Riders of the Torch", a<BR>
novel about a group of STL colonists and their fleet of ships.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
On Fri, 31 Mar 2000, Black ICE wrote:<BR>
 <BR>
> At least in the Spinward Marches, there would be worlds that would<BR>
> welcome these heroes; with their TL 8-9 skills, they would be a<BR>
> _windfall_ to many systems in the SM.  Similarly, there are perfectly<BR>
> habitable (and underpopulated) worlds in the SM (such as my "landgrab"<BR>
> world of Leander) that would be a suitable home for these pioneers.<BR>
> <BR>
> A compassionate (or wise) polity would give them "free" passage to such<BR>
> a world.<BR>
> <BR>
> The cost of such passage would be recouped in two main ways:<BR>
> <BR>
> 1.  Extensive interviews with the colonists, to provide historical<BR>
> background.<BR>
> <BR>
> 2.  The colony ships themselves, as museum ships or research objects.<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Bruce Johnson<BR>
University of Arizona<BR>
College of Pharmacy<BR>
Information Technology Group<BR>
<BR>
Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 07:03:33 -0700 (MST)<BR>
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU><BR>
Subject: Weather control was Re: Grav-powered floating cities II<BR>
<BR>
On Thu, 30 Mar 2000, Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> In mail you write:<BR>
> <BR>
> > Not really. For instance, many places in the Midwest pose little<BR>
> > earthquake danger,<BR>
> <BR>
> Three words: "New Madrid fault"<BR>
> <BR>
> In other words, that should be no *known* earthquake danger.<BR>
<BR>
Well, you are right, the New Madrid fault kinda sticks out. And, it _is_<BR>
known, having been the site of the largest recorded earthquake (largest is<BR>
in retrospect, looking at what shifted) IIRC, it was in 1830. Some<BR>
TEOTWAWKI loon was predicting The Big One there last summer. <BR>
<BR>
Biut the New Madrid fault doesn't affect Des Moines, or Madison WI, or<BR>
Oklahoma City...and they don't even get many tornadoes or floods in<BR>
Madison...<BR>
<BR>
 <BR>
> > There's an idea. Want to do weather control? Then you have to do things<BR>
> > like control the Gulf Stream, El Nino, The Humbolt Current, the<BR>
> > greenhouse effect...these are _planetary_ scale phenomena. Do you know<BR>
> > how many terawatts it would take to alter the temperature of the smaller<BR>
> > of these oceanic currents?<BR>
> <BR>
> One of the interesting things to come out of chaos studies is the idea<BR>
> that you can control that sort of thing by making the right sorts of<BR>
> *tiny* changes. Being chaotic systems, the weather systems will<BR>
> *amplify* the changes for you.<BR>
> <BR>
> And if some *other* tiny change damps out yours you just make another<BR>
> to compensate. <BR>
<BR>
OOOH! OUCH! One of the _other_ things that has been learned in chaos<BR>
theory, other than small variances in starting conditions have large<BR>
effects on the final outcome is that model size matters.<BR>
<BR>
The precise _way_ in those tiny changes affect things will be different<BR>
depending on the scale of your model. To accurately have a handle on what<BR>
you're doing (barring, of course, the crude full-scale way of just _doing_<BR>
it and hang the consequences!) is to make an _accurate_, _large scale_<BR>
(some believe full-scale) model of the system you're attempting to modify.<BR>
Good luck. There are thoerists who believe that means down to very fine<BR>
grained level of detail indeed...down to the old 'butterfly flapping it's<BR>
wings in Brazil' fine grained, which would require knowing how many<BR>
butterflies are down there in Brazil to flap their wings...<BR>
<BR>
It helps, of course, to _understand_ the system you're modelling, too.<BR>
<BR>
While that sort of weather tinkering could be accomplished in the near<BR>
future (and with fun phenomena like global warming, and ozone depletion,<BR>
there are some that would suggest that we're already busily tinkering<BR>
away) I'd hardly call it 'control'.<BR>
<BR>
/Best Steve Irwin voice<BR>
"Now let's see whot 'appens if I poke it with a stick!"<BR>
/<BR>
<BR>
Bruce Johnson<BR>
University of Arizona<BR>
College of Pharmacy<BR>
Information Technology Group<BR>
<BR>
Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 09:13:44 -0500<BR>
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU><BR>
Subject: Re: can "habitable" worlds exist around M-V stars?<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
>Yes, a "TL 1" vacc suit is stretching things a lot.<BR>
<BR>
I have this vision of a guy in a suit made of several layers of skins,<BR>
treated with some kind of wax, with a helmet carved out of some kind<BR>
of crystal. Running out the back, a pair of hoses made from similar<BR>
materials to the suit, meticulously assembled and sealed. The hoses<BR>
run back to a cave, where there's an airlock made by rolling big flat rocks<BR>
on goop-sealed tracks to block tunnel sections. A couple of apprentices<BR>
push bellows up and down, pumping air out to the "vacc suit", and <BR>
another set with bellows pump air in and out of the "air lock" as needed.<BR>
The outer airlock door is cunningly designed to use gravity assist for<BR>
opening and closing, as they can never get all the air out of the airlock.<BR>
<BR>
They would die at the first natural disaster, but maybe they got lucky.<BR>
<BR>
Leonard again:<BR>
>Want a fun one to explain? I just noticed a world with *no* population,<BR>
>but listed as TL-2! Hex 1214 in Spinward marches.<BR>
<BR>
It's a marked spot of bedrock, probably with a navigation beacon.<BR>
Population 0 could mean up to 9 people, but maybe this was two<BR>
scouts with a sense of humor noting that there was a tool box in<BR>
the beacon shed. :-)<BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 15:17:31 +0100<BR>
From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com><BR>
Subject: RE: TL<BR>
<BR>
Hi.  I was triaging my TML email folder  and  just  noticed  this<BR>
tread (so apologies if I repeat anything already said).<BR>
<BR>
Hans Rancke-Madsen wrote:<BR>
> There are plenty of worlds with a TL level that they just CAN'T<BR>
> maintain on their own because they don't have enough people to<BR>
> run all the necessary parts.<BR>
<BR>
The UPP population figure represents permanent residents only (no<BR>
transient population).<BR>
<BR>
To illustrate: (IIRC) Pixie/Regina has practically no  population<BR>
but is TL15 with a class A  starport.  How can this be?  The  low<BR>
UPP factor was described (I forget where) as a handful of  miners<BR>
roaming over Pixie's surface scratching out  a  living.  However,<BR>
Pixie is also the  location  of  a  major  shipbuilding  facility<BR>
producing L-Hyd drop tanks.  The factory workers were contractors<BR>
or on 6 month rotation (etc) and thus classified as transient ...<BR>
and thus not counted in Pixie's UPP.  (Shipyard facility on Pixie<BR>
is referred to in one of the pre-5FW TNS stories.)<BR>
<BR>
Regards PLST<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 09:47:26 -0500<BR>
From: "J-Man" <j-man@iname.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Crossing Worlds<BR>
<BR>
Yes he did..I think it was like "The Skeleton Men of Jupiter" or<BR>
something..been a loooong time since I read it.<BR>
___________________________________________________________<BR>
 J-Man<BR>
 ICQ# 2843475<BR>
 New Hampshire - U.S.A.<BR>
 Email : j-man@iname.com<BR>
 Home Page : http://www.gocsystems.com/<BR>
___________________________________________________________<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: "Leonard Erickson" <shadow@krypton.rain.com><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Friday, March 31, 2000 12:12 AM<BR>
Subject: Re: Crossing Worlds<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
> Oh yeah, I think Burroughs may have also written a story set on one of<BR>
> Jupiter's moons. :-)<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 10:15:42 EST<BR>
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: MA<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 00-03-31 06:10:18 EST, you write:<BR>
<BR>
<< The module itself was first run at Origins II. >><BR>
<BR>
I played in it. Chopped the arm off of a thief in our party who got bored and <BR>
tried to practice his pickpocket skill. <BR>
<BR>
LKW<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 10:15:49 EST<BR>
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Janitor<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 00-03-31 06:10:18 EST, you write:<BR>
<BR>
<< Back when I ran D&D, the party encountered a little guy with a pushcart and<BR>
 a<BR>
 broom and a HUGE ring of keys.<BR>
 <BR>
 LKW<BR>
 <BR>
 <BR>
 How much XP was he worth? >><BR>
<BR>
The party reasoned that anyone who was able to survive at that level armed <BR>
only with a broom must either be very powerful or have the protection of <BR>
who/whatever created the labrynth. They were correct.<BR>
<BR>
LKW<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 10:15:57 EST<BR>
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: GDW boardgames<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 00-03-31 06:10:18 EST, you write:<BR>
<BR>
<< >At Titan Games, Imperium is currently available new for $15.  Although<BR>
 >the Web site doesn't say, I suspect that the copy or copies they have<BR>
 >are the second GDW edition (4-piece hardback game board, slightly<BR>
 >smaller than the folded-paper 1st edition map). >><BR>
<BR>
If those are the ones I sold him, they are indeed the hard board versions. I <BR>
still have a couple in factory shrinkwrap if anyone wants to talk $.<BR>
<BR>
LKW<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 10:16:07 EST<BR>
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: RS<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 00-03-31 06:10:18 EST, you write:<BR>
<BR>
<< Lets make the DGPs stuff public again... If Rodger wont do it, we can! >><BR>
<BR>
As someone who earns his living by IP rights, and without reference to any <BR>
specific case, I would like to encourage people not to commit illegal acts. <BR>
Simply because I'm not using my car right now doesn't give people the right <BR>
to drive it without my permission, regardless of what their intentions are.<BR>
<BR>
LKW<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 06:55:17<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Dulinor went down to capitol<BR>
<BR>
At 01:08 PM 3/29/2000 -0900, you wrote:<BR>
>>Note: This one scans very strangely if you aren't familiar with the<BR>
>>original. The song changes tempo several times.<BR>
<BR>
>Doug, it scans a little strange even if one IS familiar with the song.<BR>
<BR>
Well, it was meant to sung in Vilani, yeah, that's the ticket!  Old High<BR>
Vilani!<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 07:02:39<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: RE: TML LAND GRAB - How long do we have?<BR>
<BR>
At 10:10 PM 3/30/2000 -0600, you wrote:<BR>
>Anyone have any idea if there is a set timeframe in which to complete<BR>
>our worlds? Penelope is kinda exploding in my head right now, so I might<BR>
>have more than I bargained for! Looks like I may have picked an<BR>
>interesting world. . .<BR>
<BR>
No time limits, this isn't a contest or a book dealine.<BR>
<BR>
I started the landgrab in order to spuir discussions of Traveller in a<BR>
period where many people were complaining about an increasing number of<BR>
severely off-topic posts. It seems to have worked from the number of<BR>
threads on habital zones and such.<BR>
<BR>
Take your time.<BR>
- --<BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
"I created the universe; give ME the gift certificate!!"<BR>
                   - Lisa Simpson, Overachiever<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 06:33:45 -0900<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Foreven Sector<BR>
<BR>
BeRKA [QM] has a great version of Foreven Sector, which is due<BR>
spinward (left)  of the Spinward Marches, up on his <BR>
website, The Zhodani Base at: 	<BR>
<BR>
http://zho.berka.com/<BR>
<BR>
I think he's mentioned it on the list but I wanted to<BR>
let you all know what a great job he, Gypsy Comet, and<BR>
Dylan Lee have done. He also has some other cool stuff<BR>
including a random subsector generator, an adventure,<BR>
& more, check it out. The site uses Jim Vassilikaos's<BR>
mapping program Galactic 2.4, which I now wish came<BR>
in a Mac version.<BR>
<BR>
Note to canon purists: These stats are not canonical<BR>
as Foreven is a referee preserve set up by GDW so that<BR>
each ref can determine their own stats.<BR>
<BR>
BeRKA [QM] apologies if you prefer to go by some<BR>
other name, since no other was listed on your<BR>
Traveller page & your home page was in Swedish (?)<BR>
I could not determine any other name.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 10:46:18 EST<BR>
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: RS<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 3/31/00 3:18:30 PM !!!First Boot!!!, GDWGAMES@aol.com <BR>
writes:<BR>
<BR>
<< As someone who earns his living by IP rights, and without reference to any <BR>
 specific case, I would like to encourage people not to commit illegal acts. <BR>
 Simply because I'm not using my car right now doesn't give people the right <BR>
 to drive it without my permission, regardless of what their intentions are.<BR>
 <BR>
 LKW<BR>
  >><BR>
<BR>
You are, of course correct. The situation is just SO frustrating however...<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 10:57:53 -0500<BR>
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca><BR>
Subject: Re: TL<BR>
<BR>
Hans Rancke-Madsen writes:<BR>
>>Sure, but TL is *not* what can be (or has) been imported. It's what the<BR>
>>locals can build and maintain. <BR>
>sorry, but that explanation just doesn't work in all cases. There are plenty<BR>
>of worlds with a TL level that they just CAN'T maintain on their own because<BR>
>they don't have enough people to run all the necessary parts.<BR>
<snipped><BR>
>My own take is that TL is what a sizable part of the population use in their<BR>
>daily lives[*]. Whether they build it themselves or dig something out of the<BR>
>ground and use it to buy what they need doesn't matter. However, imports by<BR>
>a few rich people do not count. It has to be a sizable part of the<BR>
>population. Which means that in MOST cases it's what can be produced<BR>
>locally. But a mining colony that imports all it's TL 9 equipment is TL 9<BR>
>not TL 0 or 1.<BR>
<snipped><BR>
<BR>
	I tend to agree.  Of course, if stuff is in general use by the<BR>
	population, they should be able to conduct basic maintenance (replace<BR>
	filters, check oil level, top up the oil, maybe even change the oil<BR>
	if the appropriate oil is imported).  What it comes down to is that<BR>
	the Scout service has indicated the level of technology that travellers<BR>
	can expect to find in common use on a world.  This limits what can be<BR>
	purchased/maintained, but there are other factors (law level,<BR>
	populations size, etc.).  Finally, there are exceptions, such as rich<BR>
	locals with top-of-the-line stuff, as you have noted.  Even these<BR>
	items may get basic maintenance from the one higher-TL shop on the<BR>
	planet.  Good luck to PCs trying to get their higher-TL equipment fixed.<BR>
<BR>
Peez<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 11:31:33 -0500<BR>
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca><BR>
Subject: Re: Notes on building Heya<BR>
<BR>
Hans Rancke-Madsen writes:<BR>
>Ian Ferguson writes:<BR>
>>Jesse LaBranche writes:<BR>
>>>>>And just how much are they paying for their food? If it's anything<BR>
>>>>>resembling what it is worth, every man jack on Heya would be a<BR>
>>>>>millionaire.<BR>
>>>>I don't follow this.  Why do you think that the Heyans would all be<BR>
>>>>rich?<BR>
>>>I think that the original poster was saying that the Heyans would<BR>
>>>have to be rich in order to be able to pay for the food once you<BR>
>>>figured market value and import cost into the value of it.<BR>
>No, I was saying that if the Heyans produce enough food to feed 36 billion<BR>
>people, they would become millionaires selling it to them. I can't recall<BR>
>how much food a TTL 5 farmer can produce according to the rules in _World<BR>
>Builder's Handbook_, but it isn't more than a few dozen. And not all of<BR>
>Heya's population would be farmers.<BR>
<snipped><BR>
<BR>
	Each farmer would be making no more than he/she would if the food<BR>
	was being sold locally (assuming a similar demand), so I still<BR>
	don't follow the logic.  Whether or not there are enough farmers<BR>
	to feed all those foreigners is a good point, but don't forget<BR>
	that they don't necessarily need to provide all the food for<BR>
	those worlds.  Some food may be produced locally, and some may be<BR>
	imported from elsewhere.<BR>
<BR>
	Presumably, the crop yields of TL 5 farmers would depend on a<BR>
	number of things, particularly conditions on Heya.  Also,<BR>
	could the TL 5 farmers be using genetically modified crops and<BR>
	high-tech fertilizers/pesticides?  If the food is moved off-<BR>
	planet quickly (as quickly as TL 5 allows), loss to "vermin"<BR>
	would be minimized.  Would it be reasonable to allow 100<BR>
	people to be fed from each TL 5 farmer under these conditions?<BR>
	This would require 360 million farmers (what is the population<BR>
	of Heya?) if they were the sole source of food.  Given the huge<BR>
	(and stable) demand for food, it would not be a stretch to<BR>
	assume that a large portion of Heyans are farmers, but is there<BR>
	enough room for them all?  To stretch it to the max, if import-<BR>
	assisted Heyan farmers could feed 1,000 people each, and Heya<BR>
	provides 1% of the food to these nearby worlds, then 360,000<BR>
	farmers would be required.  If Heya cannot manage that, then I<BR>
	would certainly give up on the concept.  Probably 10% food<BR>
	and 200 persons/farmer is more reasonable, requiring 18 million<BR>
	farmers.<BR>
<BR>
	Comments?<BR>
<BR>
Peez<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2225<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2226</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
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Traveller-digest       Friday, March 31 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2226<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Vs: size of 40mm grenade warhead<BR>
Jumpstart locations<BR>
Re: Negative Mass<BR>
Landgrab: Questions on Yori<BR>
Re: Grav mechanics(was:Re: Grav Powered Floating Cities)<BR>
RE: Pixie<BR>
Re: Traveller 3D maps and Computers at the game table<BR>
Re: Grav Powered Floating Cities<BR>
Re: Grav Powered Floating Cities<BR>
Re: can "habitable" worlds exist around M-V stars?<BR>
Re: Re Penal Colonies<BR>
Re: Weather control was Re: Grav-powered floating cities II<BR>
Re: Janitor<BR>
Unified Grav Theory (was Re: Grav Powered Floating Cities)<BR>
Re: Weather control was Re: Grav-powered floating cities II<BR>
Re: Grav Powered Floating Cities<BR>
Re: Negative Mass<BR>
Re: can "habitable" worlds exist around M-V stars?<BR>
Re: Traveller 3D maps and Computers at the game table<BR>
Re: Traveller 3D maps and Computers at the game table<BR>
RE: Crossing Worlds<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 20:06:23 +0300<BR>
From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Jussi_Kenkkil=E4?= <Jussi.Kenkkila@helsinki.fi><BR>
Subject: Vs: size of 40mm grenade warhead<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message ----- <BR>
From: Cory Davis <c.davis@uws.edu.au><BR>
To: <traveller@mpgn.com><BR>
Sent: Thursday, March 30, 2000 2:41 AM<BR>
Subject: size of 40mm grenade warhead<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> Hi all<BR>
> <BR>
> what would be volume and weight of a 40mm grenade warhead, I'm trying to <BR>
<BR>
34 cc of which is usable ca 75% (25,5 cc) and 101 g (1:1 l/w HE grenade (3G3)<BR>
<BR>
- -J2K<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 12:35:37 -0500<BR>
From: Peter Miller <thegolem@mindless.com><BR>
Subject: Jumpstart locations<BR>
<BR>
Hi,<BR>
<BR>
I just picked up a copy of the T:NE book, "Survival Margin", and must say <BR>
its definitely an enjoyable read.  One item mentioned over and over in the <BR>
book in Strephon's journal entires and in a letter to Norris are the <BR>
'jumpstart' locations.  I was wondering if anyone would be able to shed any <BR>
light on exactly what these are.  I don't have any other TNE material <BR>
except the main rulebook, so I'm a bit in the dark.<BR>
<BR>
Thanks,<BR>
<BR>
Peter Miller<BR>
__________________________Peter J. Miller<BR>
thegolem@mindless.com        ICQ #5294589<BR>
<BR>
"Loneliness is not a phase..."<BR>
          - 'Angry Chair', Alice in Chains<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 12:42:27 EST<BR>
From: Kagehira@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Negative Mass<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 3/31/00 8:35:41 AM Pacific Standard Time, <BR>
owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
> More importantly how will the concept of negative mass<BR>
>  affect the possibility of accelerating ships to near C<BR>
>  velocities and punching them into planets?<BR>
<BR>
Read one of Robert Forward's books (can't recall which, but it included a <BR>
drive based on that plus time-travel made possible by the near-C speeds :)  ).<BR>
<BR>
Bryan<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 18:48:43 +0100<BR>
From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com><BR>
Subject: Landgrab: Questions on Yori<BR>
<BR>
In converting my 15 year  old  notes  on  Yori  for  the  current<BR>
"Landgrab" exercise, it occurred to me that  I  was  a  lot  less<BR>
scientifically literate 15 years ago than  I  am  now.  I  am  no<BR>
longer sure of  the  validity  of  one  of  the  key  geophysical<BR>
features (which in turn underpins the bulk of the  ecosystem).  I<BR>
am not sure its invalid either.  I'd like the  list's  scientific<BR>
opinion on whether the idea (below) is completely out to lunch or<BR>
not ... or if it can be made to work with some tweaking:<BR>
<BR>
    Given that the world is  very  dense  ("heavy  core")  I  had<BR>
    postulated that the core had contracted and Yori's oceans had<BR>
    drained into cavities that opened up below  the  surface  ...<BR>
    forming  a  subterranean  sea  or  seas.   (Obvious  possible<BR>
    reasons for the core  contracting  include  activity  by  the<BR>
    Ancients ... by the TNE era an Ancient site *had* been  found<BR>
    there according to canon.)<BR>
<BR>
Regards PLST<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 09:53:17 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Grav mechanics(was:Re: Grav Powered Floating Cities)<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erickson writes:<BR>
> >> On the other hand CG doesn't violate any laws of physics. Neither does<BR>
> >> the (limited) artificial gravity inside ships.<BR>
> ><BR>
> > Actually, CG violates quite a few laws of physics, including conservation<BR>
> > of energy.<BR>
> <BR>
> It only violate conservation of energy if you don't have to supply<BR>
> energy to counter the gain in potential energy as an object is "lifted"<BR>
> in the gravity well.<BR>
<BR>
Well, true.  However, the standard CG has a fixed power consumption which is<BR>
frequently much too low.  So unless you change the stats for CG, it violates<BR>
conservation of energy.<BR>
<BR>
> One of my takes on CG is that it (in effect) takes the slope in the<BR>
> "rubber sheet" gravity well model, and makes a sort of "step" in it. We<BR>
> don't know *how* to do that, but there's nothing that says a *locally*<BR>
> flat area of spacetime is impossible. Just be careful around the<BR>
> boundaries.<BR>
<BR>
A flat region like that might be theoretically possible, but it can only be<BR>
generated from outside.  This would permit creating an anti-gravity chamber<BR>
(in which objects are weightless) but the weight of the chamber itself would<BR>
be equal to the total weight of the chamber and anything inside of it.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 12:55:46 -0500<BR>
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca><BR>
Subject: RE: Pixie<BR>
<BR>
Peter Trevor writes:<BR>
<snipped><BR>
>To illustrate: (IIRC) Pixie/Regina has practically no  population<BR>
>but is TL15 with a class A  starport.  How can this be?  The  low<BR>
>UPP factor was described (I forget where) as a handful of  miners<BR>
>roaming over Pixie's surface scratching out  a  living.  However,<BR>
>Pixie is also the  location  of  a  major  shipbuilding  facility<BR>
>producing L-Hyd drop tanks.  The factory workers were contractors<BR>
>or on 6 month rotation (etc) and thus classified as transient ...<BR>
>and thus not counted in Pixie's UPP.  (Shipyard facility on Pixie<BR>
>is referred to in one of the pre-5FW TNS stories.)<BR>
<BR>
	Pixie is one of those worlds that gets Traveller GMs thinking<BR>
	up stories.  IIRC it is TL 13 in 1105, with a Pop 0 (up to 90),<BR>
	Starport A, and an Imperial Naval Base (is there an IWS there<BR>
	as well?).  I put about 90% of the residents at the starport,<BR>
	with a lot of robotic assistants.  Although technically a class<BR>
	A starport, only very small starships can be manufactured and<BR>
	civilian repair facilities can only handle one vessel at a time.<BR>
	The civilian starport is really just an add-on to the naval<BR>
	base, and nearly all residents work there.  The personnel in<BR>
	the naval base do not count towards the population.<BR>
<BR>
Peez<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 19:23:59 +0100<BR>
From: "Michael J Scanlon" <m.scanlon@talk21.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller 3D maps and Computers at the game table<BR>
<BR>
I couldn't help but notice you were chatting about 3d star mapping. This is<BR>
one of my top interest pints with a Traveller style gaming system. I do not<BR>
like your ploy to use cubic space, to me there is no logic in it. I mean if<BR>
your moving diagonally as opposed to up and down or from left to right or<BR>
forward and backwards then the distance variance is something like the<BR>
square root of 2 to 1. What is wrong with mapping with a real time chart, as<BR>
far as we know it?<BR>
Using the stars, planets and their moons centre points as their position<BR>
reference points and then their dimensions, and gravitational holds on other<BR>
masses a much more accurate/ realistic picture can be drawn up. Bearing in<BR>
mind such data would only be required as a screen shot when requested.<BR>
Resolution may then be left open to the players choice upon request with a<BR>
scan micro.<BR>
Also with the above idea for a solution to the problem there includes the<BR>
fact that stars planets and their moons do move and change position, all<BR>
relative to each other.<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: Leonard Erickson <shadow@krypton.rain.com><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: 30 March 2000 03:27<BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller 3D maps and Computers at the game table<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> In mail you write:<BR>
><BR>
> > At 18:26 28.03.00 PST, Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
> ><BR>
> >>> Absolutely true. But imagine a model with more than 50 stars... It<BR>
> > wouldn't<BR>
> >>> be very helpful for play, I suppose.<BR>
> >><BR>
> >>I think it could be useful. It'd be a real bear to *build* though.<BR>
> ><BR>
> > 50 stars? How large do want this cube to be?<BR>
><BR>
> Assuming an average of one star per unit cube (pretty dense star<BR>
> cluster!) it'd be 50^(1/3) units across. Or about 3.68 units on a side.<BR>
> So a cube *4* units on a side would consist of 64 "cubes". One 5 units<BR>
> on a side would be 125 cubes, giving us a bit under 1 star per 2 cubes<BR>
> (typical Traveller density).<BR>
><BR>
> So a 10 inch cube would have stars 2-4 inches apart.<BR>
><BR>
> > How would you want to use a "ruler" at the stars in the centre?<BR>
><BR>
> See above. Not all that hard to manuever the "stick on a handle" into<BR>
> there.<BR>
><BR>
> So how about we go for a 50 cm display at 2 cm to the parsec. That's<BR>
> 25^3, or 15,625 "hexes". With a 50% chance per "hex" for a star, that's<BR>
> over 7800 stars. It'll take a long time for the players to explore all<BR>
> of that. Yet this is an area *only* 5 jumps across at J5 or J6.<BR>
><BR>
> One *advantage* of this is that it makes the prevalence of<BR>
> "unihabitable" planets more tolerable. It also makes it easier to<BR>
> explain how "splinter cultures" were able to escape and be left alone.<BR>
><BR>
> They can wilderness refuel a few times and be lost among *hundreds* of<BR>
> worlds at that distance from the homeworld. And it'll be a long time<BR>
> before governmental "explore all the worlds as you go" type exploration<BR>
> reaches them.<BR>
><BR>
> >>> So no problem there. Why don't I like the idea anyway?<BR>
> >>> Conservatism?<BR>
> >><BR>
> >>Well, if done "wrong", they might as well be logging in from home..<BR>
> ><BR>
> > ?<BR>
> > You are planning to connect that LAN to the Internet? Why?<BR>
><BR>
> Not necessarily. But I've helped run a BBS for over a decade. Used them<BR>
> for almost *two* decades. And thought about linking systems over modems<BR>
> since the 70s.<BR>
><BR>
> They *could* just call my modem line and upload "moves" for the<BR>
> equivalent of a fast PBM game.<BR>
><BR>
> --<BR>
> Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
>  shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
> leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 10:38:49 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Grav Powered Floating Cities<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>> > Even if you do accept negative mass (I personally think that it's a<BR>
>> > mathematical artifact from the sign ambiguity in a square<BR>
>> root.), everything<BR>
>> > I have read on the subject says that it acts pretty much (not<BR>
>> totally) like<BR>
>> > regular mass. It falls downward, etc. From the effects of two<BR>
>> negative signs<BR>
>> > cancelling each other out.<BR>
>><BR>
>> Not quite. F = G*M1*M2/R^2<BR>
><BR>
> </FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=14><BIG><BIG><BIG><BR>
><BR>
> Nope. Take a look at http://www.concentric.net/~pvb/negmass.html for<BR>
> example.<BR>
<BR>
Unless it's an actual *experiment*, I'll stick with the version I<BR>
posted, which is based on Dr. Robert Forward speculations.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 10:40:23 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Grav Powered Floating Cities<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) wrote<BR>
><BR>
>> consider a positive mass object and a negative mass object. <BR>
>> The positive mass object experiences a *negative* force, thus it<BR>
>> experiences a negative acceleraton. So it moves *away* from the<BR>
>> negative mass object.<BR>
>> The negative mass object experiences a negative force, thus it moves<BR>
>> *towards* the positive mass object. <BR>
>> In other words, they both move in the *same* direction, at the *same*<BR>
>> acceleration! Forever!<BR>
>> This doesn't violate any conservation laws, because the kinetic energy<BR>
>> and momentum of the negative mass object are *negative*. <BR>
>> This may be how "thrusters" work. <BR>
><BR>
> So by this theory the spaceship would have a positive<BR>
> mass and the thruster plates would, when charged up,<BR>
> have a negative mass?<BR>
><BR>
> In that case what's the difference between contragravity<BR>
> (which supposedly works poorly outside a g field),<BR>
> antigravity (TL 9 half thrust beyond 10 diameters),<BR>
> and a thruster plate (full thrust everywhere)<BR>
<BR>
Ask a gravitics engineer....<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 10:41:59 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: can "habitable" worlds exist around M-V stars?<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
>>Yes, a "TL 1" vacc suit is stretching things a lot.<BR>
><BR>
> I have this vision of a guy in a suit made of several layers of skins,<BR>
> treated with some kind of wax, with a helmet carved out of some kind<BR>
> of crystal. Running out the back, a pair of hoses made from similar<BR>
> materials to the suit, meticulously assembled and sealed.<BR>
<BR>
Actually, I expect it to be linen canvas, sealed by treating with<BR>
linseed oil or the like (which upon exposure to UV polymerizes, giving<BR>
one of the first plastics!).<BR>
<BR>
> The hoses<BR>
> run back to a cave, where there's an airlock made by rolling big flat rocks<BR>
> on goop-sealed tracks to block tunnel sections. A couple of apprentices<BR>
> push bellows up and down, pumping air out to the "vacc suit", and <BR>
> another set with bellows pump air in and out of the "air lock" as needed.<BR>
> The outer airlock door is cunningly designed to use gravity assist for<BR>
> opening and closing, as they can never get all the air out of the airlock.<BR>
><BR>
> They would die at the first natural disaster, but maybe they got lucky.<BR>
<BR>
Keep in mind that TL 1 *starts* with the bronze age and extends thru<BR>
the middle ages (up to 1400 according to the Traveller Book). <BR>
<BR>
And they had things like *concrete* back then. Which will leak only<BR>
slowly, if at all, depending on additives. Metal sheathed wooden doors<BR>
are within their ability. As is production of large mirrors to<BR>
concentrate sunlight.<BR>
<BR>
I'm not sure it it's practical to build a glass dome by melting the<BR>
materials onto a form. But it might be. In which case, you have gardens<BR>
under glass...<BR>
<BR>
Hmmmm...<BR>
<BR>
Now that I think about it, in low G, you could melt a big pool of<BR>
glass, then "blow" it into a dome. Maybe. Probably easier to use the<BR>
mirrors to fuse chunks of quartz together to make a dome.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 10:52:05 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Re Penal Colonies<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>>> How about a Penal colony?<BR>
>><BR>
>>Better :)  Some native northwestern Indian tribes used to "banish" their<BR>
>>criminals to remote islands where they were to live off of the land with<BR>
>>little additional help (shelter was sometimes provided), until such a time<BR>
>>as their sentence was lifted and they were returned to the tribe.  One<BR>
>>local "tribe" did this with a few youths just a few years ago, IIRC.  I<BR>
>>think the lesson was that you don't prey on the community that takes care<BR>
>>of you.<BR>
>><BR>
>>PS: The only excuse I hate more than the "failing Long Night colony" excuse<BR>
>>is the "surviving using failing Ancient tech" excuse :)<BR>
>><BR>
> Change "used to" to "Still use" ... Two alaskan native youth were banished<BR>
> to an island about a year ago, with materials for a prefab log cabin, a<BR>
> woodstove, cooking and fishing gear, and bowie knives. Sentenced by the<BR>
> village elders, upheld by the Alaska Supreme Court. The US Supreme court<BR>
> refused to hear the case. IIRC, 9th Circut also refused to hear it. They<BR>
> get checked on by AkDOC about every other week. They should have half<BR>
> completed the banishment by now.<BR>
<BR>
Belters or Vacuum worlders could do this with a spare asteroid or moon.<BR>
<BR>
"The dome is set up, and there's enough consumables to last long enough<BR>
for you to get the hyproponics going... if you don't screw around. The<BR>
manuals are on the table."<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 10:56:02 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Weather control was Re: Grav-powered floating cities II<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
> On Thu, 30 Mar 2000, Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>> In mail you write:<BR>
>> <BR>
>> > Not really. For instance, many places in the Midwest pose little<BR>
>> > earthquake danger,<BR>
>> <BR>
>> Three words: "New Madrid fault"<BR>
>> <BR>
>> In other words, that should be no *known* earthquake danger.<BR>
><BR>
> Well, you are right, the New Madrid fault kinda sticks out. And, it _is_<BR>
> known, having been the site of the largest recorded earthquake (largest is<BR>
> in retrospect, looking at what shifted) IIRC, it was in 1830. Some<BR>
> TEOTWAWKI loon was predicting The Big One there last summer. <BR>
><BR>
> Biut the New Madrid fault doesn't affect Des Moines, or Madison WI, or<BR>
> Oklahoma City...and they don't even get many tornadoes or floods in<BR>
> Madison...<BR>
<BR>
You missed my point. If it wasn't for the fact that there *was* that<BR>
big quake there, nobody would know about that "fault" (I use quotes<BR>
because as far as I know, they *still* haven't found the actual fault,<BR>
just evidence that suggests there has to *be* a fault there).<BR>
<BR>
Geology still says there shouldn't *be* a fault there.<BR>
<BR>
So who knows what similar "faults" may be lurking around?<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 11:00:13 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Janitor<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> In a message dated 00-03-31 06:10:18 EST, you write:<BR>
><BR>
> << Back when I ran D&D, the party encountered a little guy with a pushcart <BR>
> and<BR>
>  a<BR>
>  broom and a HUGE ring of keys.<BR>
>  <BR>
>  LKW<BR>
>  <BR>
>  <BR>
>  How much XP was he worth? >><BR>
><BR>
> The party reasoned that anyone who was able to survive at that level armed <BR>
> only with a broom must either be very powerful or have the protection of <BR>
> who/whatever created the labrynth. They were correct.<BR>
<BR>
Sounds rather like the stunt one group came up with. They were tired of<BR>
"wasting time" dealing with annoyances like orcs and kobolds on the way<BR>
to the deeper levels of the dungeon. Someone came up with a bright<BR>
idea, and, after he quit laughing, the DM admitted that it ought to<BR>
work. <BR>
<BR>
So next trip, the party included half a dozen bagpipes. And they<BR>
started *playing* them as they entered the dungeon.<BR>
<BR>
As expected, the reaction of the typical low level type was "Anybody<BR>
making *that* much racket is someoone I want to be far, far away<BR>
from..." <BR>
<BR>
And yes, it *di* tend to mean that our first enocounter on the lower<BR>
levels was an ambush of sorts. But when you are *expecting* it, an<BR>
ambush is more annoying than deadly.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 11:28:49 -0800<BR>
From: "Luther Martin" <martin@ksarul.com><BR>
Subject: Unified Grav Theory (was Re: Grav Powered Floating Cities)<BR>
<BR>
So how about this unifying handwave for grav technology?<BR>
<BR>
If we try to fit grav technology with what we know today, all sorts of<BR>
problems pop up. This annoying physics stuff. So we approach it in a<BR>
different way.<BR>
<BR>
We know that jump drives effectively bend or distort space in some vague and<BR>
unspecified (VAU) way. Maybe grav drives act the same way, using this VAU<BR>
hyperspace to produce their effects. Gravity ultimately ends up being a<BR>
distortion of space, and we can clearly get some sort of distortion using<BR>
jump drives. The need to move away from a large body before you engage your<BR>
jump drive is related to this in some VAU way. So grav technology is really<BR>
the first step to jump technology. No conservation of <whatever> problems,<BR>
either.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 20:41:52 +0100<BR>
From: "Nick Bradbeer" <nickb@ndirect.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: Weather control was Re: Grav-powered floating cities II<BR>
<BR>
>You missed my point. If it wasn't for the fact that there *was* that<BR>
>big quake there, nobody would know about that "fault" (I use quotes<BR>
>because as far as I know, they *still* haven't found the actual fault,<BR>
>just evidence that suggests there has to *be* a fault there).<BR>
><BR>
>Geology still says there shouldn't *be* a fault there.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Oh, sorry - I shoulda said. That was us, with the quake gen....%$*&%^....NO<BR>
CARRIER<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 11:47:44 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Grav Powered Floating Cities<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erickson writes:<BR>
<BR>
> > Nope. Take a look at http://www.concentric.net/~pvb/negmass.html for<BR>
> > example.<BR>
> <BR>
> Unless it's an actual *experiment*, I'll stick with the version I<BR>
> posted, which is based on Dr. Robert Forward speculations.<BR>
<BR>
Basically, negative mass has both negative weight and negative inertia.  This<BR>
means that it falls towards a planet (if you apply force to something with<BR>
negative inertia, it moves in the opposite direction).<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 11:26:28 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Negative Mass<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> In a message dated 3/31/00 8:35:41 AM Pacific Standard Time, <BR>
> owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com writes:<BR>
><BR>
>> More importantly how will the concept of negative mass<BR>
>>  affect the possibility of accelerating ships to near C<BR>
>>  velocities and punching them into planets?<BR>
><BR>
> Read one of Robert Forward's books (can't recall which, but it included a <BR>
> drive based on that plus time-travel made possible by the near-C speeds :)  <BR>
> ).<BR>
<BR>
"Timemaster"<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 15:07:38 -0500<BR>
From: "Smith, Walter" <SmithW@hartwick.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: can "habitable" worlds exist around M-V stars?<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
>Keep in mind that TL 1 *starts* with the bronze age and extends thru <BR>
>the middle ages (up to 1400 according to the Traveller Book). <BR>
><BR>
>And they had things like *concrete* back then. Which will leak only <BR>
>slowly, if at all, depending on additives. Metal sheathed wooden doors <BR>
>are within their ability. As is production of large mirrors to <BR>
>concentrate sunlight. <BR>
<BR>
I was more thinking that a TL1 society couldn't build a pump capable<BR>
of reducing the airlock to near-vacuum. Then I realize they wouldn't<BR>
have to, they'd just have to crank open an outside valve and release<BR>
the air.<BR>
<BR>
Still, I imagine any outside engineering projects would be a real<BR>
trial for a TL1 society. <BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 22:40:51 +0200<BR>
From: Ingo Heinscher <Hiroshi.Estigarribia@gmx.de><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller 3D maps and Computers at the game table<BR>
<BR>
At 19:23 31.03.00 +0100, Michael J Scanlon wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>I couldn't help but notice you were chatting about 3d star mapping. This is<BR>
>one of my top interest pints with a Traveller style gaming system. I do not<BR>
>like your ploy to use cubic space, to me there is no logic in it. I mean if<BR>
>your moving diagonally as opposed to up and down or from left to right or<BR>
>forward and backwards then the distance variance is something like the<BR>
>square root of 2 to 1. What is wrong with mapping with a real time chart, as<BR>
>far as we know it?<BR>
<BR>
What is a "real time chart"? <BR>
<BR>
>Using the stars, planets and their moons centre points as their position<BR>
>reference points and then their dimensions, and gravitational holds on other<BR>
>masses a much more accurate/ realistic picture can be drawn up. Bearing in<BR>
>mind such data would only be required as a screen shot when requested.<BR>
>Resolution may then be left open to the players choice upon request with a<BR>
>scan micro.<BR>
<BR>
>Also with the above idea for a solution to the problem there includes the<BR>
>fact that stars planets and their moons do move and change position, all<BR>
>relative to each other.<BR>
<BR>
Well, on this, the movement of stars is relatively irrelevant. Most<BR>
campaigns don't last centuries of game time, and still, speaking in<BR>
interstellar dimensions, there is not much change to the astronomical<BR>
coordinates of stars relative to each other, even over the centuries.<BR>
<BR>
I am not sure if I understand your posting correctly, though.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
"This was not meant to be an aggresssion against the Siru Zirka. But we had<BR>
to organize our affairs a bit more efficiently. To be honest, we have had<BR>
to do this for almost 300 years by now."<BR>
unknown Terran politician, -2398 Imp<BR>
;-) ingo heinscher <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 22:35:04 +0200<BR>
From: Ingo Heinscher <Hiroshi.Estigarribia@gmx.de><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller 3D maps and Computers at the game table<BR>
<BR>
At 19:23 31.03.00 +0100, Michael J Scanlon wrote:<BR>
>I couldn't help but notice you were chatting about 3d star mapping. <BR>
<BR>
Thank you for reposting the entire artlce. So I can answer Leonard inspite<BR>
of the fact that I accidentally lost my own copy of it... I'll answer you<BR>
posting seperately.<BR>
<BR>
>----- Original Message -----<BR>
>From: Leonard Erickson <shadow@krypton.rain.com><BR>
>To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
>Sent: 30 March 2000 03:27<BR>
>Subject: Re: Traveller 3D maps and Computers at the game table<BR>
<BR>
[snip]<BR>
>> So a 10 inch cube would have stars 2-4 inches apart.<BR>
>><BR>
>> > How would you want to use a "ruler" at the stars in the centre?<BR>
>><BR>
>> See above. Not all that hard to manuever the "stick on a handle" into<BR>
>> there.<BR>
<BR>
But still far from being comfortable, IMHO.<BR>
<BR>
>> So how about we go for a 50 cm display at 2 cm to the parsec. That's<BR>
>> 25^3, or 15,625 "hexes". With a 50% chance per "hex" for a star, that's<BR>
>> over 7800 stars. It'll take a long time for the players to explore all<BR>
>> of that. Yet this is an area *only* 5 jumps across at J5 or J6.<BR>
<BR>
>> One *advantage* of this is that it makes the prevalence of<BR>
>> "unihabitable" planets more tolerable. It also makes it easier to<BR>
>> explain how "splinter cultures" were able to escape and be left alone.<BR>
<BR>
Are you referring to any splinter society I should know?<BR>
<BR>
>> They can wilderness refuel a few times and be lost among *hundreds* of<BR>
>> worlds at that distance from the homeworld. And it'll be a long time<BR>
>> before governmental "explore all the worlds as you go" type exploration<BR>
>> reaches them.<BR>
<BR>
But you have a problem with the Imperium being ridiculouly small, compared<BR>
to the OTU and considering travel times. It changes more than just a major<BR>
detail... I mean, any message would need merely eight weeks to get<BR>
anywhere. The economic advantage of higher jump numbers in 3D is<BR>
considerable. There would not be much left of the OTU. You would have to do<BR>
a lot of work on your own...<BR>
<BR>
Even if you fill in a quite large amount of "planetless stars" (which are<BR>
therefore ignoreable), it is still far away from being the OTU.<BR>
<BR>
I wonder when Jeff Zeitlin finds time to do the next Freelance Traveller<BR>
update...<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
"This was not meant to be an aggresssion against the Siru Zirka. But we had<BR>
to organize our affairs a bit more efficiently. To be honest, we have had<BR>
to do this for almost 300 years by now."<BR>
unknown Terran politician, -2398 Imp<BR>
;-) ingo heinscher <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 15:58:24 -0500<BR>
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net><BR>
Subject: RE: Crossing Worlds<BR>
<BR>
>From the preface to S3 Expedition to the Barrier Peaks:<BR>
> "This module was begun early in 1976 when TSR was contem-<BR>
>  plating publication of a science fantasy role playing game. Jim<BR>
>  Ward had already shown us some rough notes on META-<BR>
>  MORPHOSIS ALPHA; I thought it would be a splendid idea to<BR>
>  introduce Jim's game at Origins II, and introduce the concept to<BR>
>  D&D players by means of the tournament scenario." - Gary Gygax.<BR>
<BR>
I guess I did recall it correctly.<BR>
<BR>
> The published S3 was an adaptation for AD&D and intended to<BR>
> bolster interest in a new edition of MA and Gamma World.<BR>
<BR>
That would have been tough. Metamorphosis Alpha was already out of print by<BR>
1980. Gamma World, 1st edition, was already 2 years old by that point, and<BR>
the second edition wouldn't be out for another three years.<BR>
<BR>
> there is no evidence one way or another regarding the name of the starship<BR>
> from S3. The part of the ship from the module is stated to be a small<BR>
> fraction of a larger ship though.<BR>
<BR>
There is strong evidence for it, it's just not explicitly stated in the<BR>
module itself. The adventure was designed to introduce the concept of<BR>
Metamorphosis Alpha to D&D gamers, it contained mutated beasties and<BR>
high-tech artifacts, and it was supposed to be just one small part of a<BR>
larger ship. The robots and technology in Barrier Peaks follow the same<BR>
scheme as the ones in Metamorphosis Alpha (and even look the same). With all<BR>
of that evidence, I think it's tough to argue that the bit of ship in<BR>
Barrier Peaks *wasn't* a chunk of the Warden. Of course, others may parse<BR>
evidence in a different fashion, and they may draw their own conclusions.<BR>
<BR>
Truthfully, it doesn't really matter to me beyond the fact that I thought I<BR>
could be helpful to someone who seemed to have questions as to what the<BR>
relation between the products was.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2226<BR>
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Traveller-digest       Friday, March 31 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2227<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: GDW boardgames<BR>
Re: can "habitable" worlds exist <BR>
Re: Re Penal Colonies<BR>
Re: More Cool Maps<BR>
Re: Jumpstart locations<BR>
Re: TML Landgrab<BR>
Re: The Beyond<BR>
Re: can "habitable" worlds exist <BR>
RE: can "habitable" worlds exist around M-V stars?<BR>
Re: Unified Grav Theory<BR>
RE: Jumpstart locations<BR>
RE: Jumpstart locations<BR>
Re D&D Known World & S3<BR>
Re Gut Grenades<BR>
Re: Jumpstart locations<BR>
Landgrab: consultants sought for work on Mongo <BR>
Re: Negative Mass<BR>
Re: Janitor<BR>
Re: Grav Powered Floating Cities<BR>
Re: can "habitable" worlds exist around M-V stars?<BR>
Re: Traveller 3D maps and Computers at the game table<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 13:05:13 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: GDW boardgames<BR>
<BR>
>From: "Luther Martin" <martin@ksarul.com><BR>
<BR>
>I've only played Mayday, Snapshot, AHL, Invasion Earth, and <BR>
>Fifth Frontier War. I know nothing about Dark Nebula and <BR>
>Imperium. I think that Imperium is still available from Far <BR>
>Future Enterprises, however. Cheap. By eBay standards. In any <BR>
>case, put them on the list.<BR>
<BR>
I have all of those games (multiple copies of some), so you can<BR>
at least play them without using eBay.  <BR>
<BR>
I don't quite have enough copies of AHL to lay out the entire<BR>
ship, but someday I would like to do that, and run a<BR>
multi-player game.  There may be almost enough room in<BR>
Kristian's garage.<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.<BR>
http://im.yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 13:26:31 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: can "habitable" worlds exist <BR>
<BR>
>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
<BR>
>Want a fun one to explain? I just noticed a world with *no* <BR>
>population, but listed as TL-2! Hex 1214 in Spinward marches.<BR>
<BR>
The population item in the UPP is a power of 10, so a zero 10 to<BR>
the zero power, or 1 to 9 inhabitants.  It's either an<BR>
anarcho-syndicalist collective or a family.<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.<BR>
http://im.yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 13:32:11 -0800<BR>
From: "James W. Lindsay" <jlindsay@home.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Re Penal Colonies<BR>
<BR>
On Fri, 31 Mar 2000 00:08:01 -0900, William F. Hostman wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> >> How about a Penal colony?<BR>
> ><BR>
> >Better :)  Some native northwestern Indian tribes used to "banish" their<BR>
> >criminals to remote islands where they were to live off of the land with<BR>
> >little additional help (shelter was sometimes provided), until such a time<BR>
> >as their sentence was lifted and they were returned to the tribe.  One<BR>
> >local "tribe" did this with a few youths just a few years ago, IIRC.  I<BR>
> >think the lesson was that you don't prey on the community that takes care<BR>
> >of you.<BR>
> ><BR>
> >PS: The only excuse I hate more than the "failing Long Night colony" excuse<BR>
> >is the "surviving using failing Ancient tech" excuse :)<BR>
> ><BR>
> Change "used to" to "Still use" ... Two alaskan native youth were banished<BR>
> to an island about a year ago...<BR>
<BR>
That's probably the story I was thinking about, although I thought it was a<BR>
couple of BC native youths somewhere up the coast near the Queen Charlotte<BR>
islands.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
James W. Lindsay             Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada<BR>
Website: http://members.home.net/jlindsay          ICQ: #7521644<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
If at first you DO succeed, try not to look astonished!<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 13:32:20 -0800<BR>
From: "James W. Lindsay" <jlindsay@home.com><BR>
Subject: Re: More Cool Maps<BR>
<BR>
On Thu, 30 Mar 2000 23:28:48 PST, Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> In mail you write:<BR>
> <BR>
> > Via electronic medium on 3/28/00 7:22 PM, shadow@krypton.rain.com issued<BR>
> > forth:<BR>
> ><BR>
> >> I've got several files that someone on the list sent me. They are all<BR>
> >> the same "form" at different resolutions or formats. Let me know which<BR>
> >> one(s) you want. <BR>
> ><BR>
> > Thank you for the response, I'd go for the three GIF's. You were mentioning<BR>
> > PNG's earlier-- I tired fooling around with them and found that the drop in<BR>
> > file size was significant as you said, but when I tried to view it with<BR>
> > Netscape, she crashed. Not the system, just Netscape, any ideas why?<BR>
> <BR>
> Neither Netscape nor IE are designed as graphics viewers. They can<BR>
> display "typical" graphics found on web pages, but they'll never<BR>
> compare with a dedicated graphics viewer.<BR>
> <BR>
> You may need an update, or Netscape may need to work on its PNG<BR>
> support. <BR>
> <BR>
> > I had<BR>
> > converted a GIF to PNG with Graphic Converter. The drop in file size would<BR>
> > be great fot gaming maps, as they tend to multipy as campaigns progress.<BR>
<BR>
Do a search for "IrfanView" on TUCOWS, download.com, or any of the more<BR>
common freeware/shareware sites on the net.  It is an absolutely phenomenal<BR>
piece of software considering it's price... "free".<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
James W. Lindsay             Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada<BR>
Website: http://members.home.net/jlindsay          ICQ: #7521644<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
If at first you DO succeed, try not to look astonished!<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 13:32:23 -0800<BR>
From: "James W. Lindsay" <jlindsay@home.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Jumpstart locations<BR>
<BR>
On Fri, 31 Mar 2000 12:35:37 -0500, Peter Miller wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Hi,<BR>
> <BR>
> I just picked up a copy of the T:NE book, "Survival Margin", and must say <BR>
> its definitely an enjoyable read.  One item mentioned over and over in the <BR>
> book in Strephon's journal entires and in a letter to Norris are the <BR>
> 'jumpstart' locations.  I was wondering if anyone would be able to shed any <BR>
> light on exactly what these are.  I don't have any other TNE material <BR>
> except the main rulebook, so I'm a bit in the dark.<BR>
<BR>
*What* they are?  I thought Survival Margin mentioned that.  Oh well...<BR>
<BR>
The "Jumpstart" project consisted of large caches of advanced technology<BR>
and knowledge designed to aid in the recovery of another (predicted) Long<BR>
Night.  These caches were safeguarded using special clues, etc. that only a<BR>
developing culture might recognize, to prevent the caches from falling into<BR>
the hands of TL0 barbarians.  That's my take on it anyway.  Note that this<BR>
description is different than the definition listed on page 103 (which<BR>
could merely be a front to explain where the money's gone).<BR>
<BR>
As to *where* these jumpstart locations were, I'm not sure.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
James W. Lindsay             Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada<BR>
Website: http://members.home.net/jlindsay          ICQ: #7521644<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
If at first you DO succeed, try not to look astonished!<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 13:32:26 -0800<BR>
From: "James W. Lindsay" <jlindsay@home.com><BR>
Subject: Re: TML Landgrab<BR>
<BR>
On Tue, 28 Mar 2000 04:32:23 -0500, Peter Miller wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Alright, I've decided to get in on this as well.<BR>
> <BR>
> Assuming it hasn't been taken; I'm going to stake my claim to Quopist\Lanth <BR>
> myself.<BR>
> <BR>
> Would anybody be able to tell me whether or not this book gets a writeup in <BR>
> BtC?<BR>
<BR>
*All* systems get write-ups in BtC, even if it is only a short paragraph.<BR>
Quopist gets three little ones! :)<BR>
<BR>
> The UWP and associated material I have is garnered from Ethan Henry's <BR>
> (excellent) Java subsector viewer:<BR>
> UWP - B150679-A<BR>
> Zone - A<BR>
> Allegiance - Im<BR>
> Stellar Data - M3 V<BR>
> Codes - Ni Po De<BR>
<BR>
Stellar data, trade codes, or the presence of gas giants (and planetoid<BR>
belts) aren't included in BtC.<BR>
<BR>
> If BtC is close or relatively close to this I'd appreciate someone being <BR>
> able to tell me.  I like the idea here, of a very small world with no water <BR>
> and yet millions of inhabitants :-) Oh the fun to be had!<BR>
<BR>
According to BtC, Quopist is the home of both humans and the "Jonkeereen"--<BR>
an unknown race (at least there's no write-up in BtC that I can find).  The<BR>
races are divided approximately 47%/53% respectively.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
James W. Lindsay             Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada<BR>
Website: http://members.home.net/jlindsay          ICQ: #7521644<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
If at first you DO succeed, try not to look astonished!<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 13:32:27 -0800<BR>
From: "James W. Lindsay" <jlindsay@home.com><BR>
Subject: Re: The Beyond<BR>
<BR>
On Sun, 26 Mar 2000 21:39:39 -0600, Michael Maley wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> I've just added text system information from my campaign onto my site<BR>
> for the Beyond sector.  With any luck I'll have all the sectors typed up<BR>
> by Tuesday.  Some of the information is per Paranoid Press' Beyond book<BR>
> and some I've added or adapted for my campaign.<BR>
> <BR>
> darkhstarr (link if interested is below)<BR>
> <BR>
> www.geocities.com/area51/shuttle/4897/darkhstarr/index.html<BR>
<BR>
URL does not compute :(<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
James W. Lindsay             Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada<BR>
Website: http://members.home.net/jlindsay          ICQ: #7521644<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
If at first you DO succeed, try not to look astonished!<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 13:32:29 -0800<BR>
From: "James W. Lindsay" <jlindsay@home.com><BR>
Subject: Re: can "habitable" worlds exist <BR>
<BR>
On Fri, 31 Mar 2000 13:26:31 -0800 (PST), Glenn Goffin wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> >From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
> <BR>
> >Want a fun one to explain? I just noticed a world with *no* <BR>
> >population, but listed as TL-2! Hex 1214 in Spinward marches.<BR>
> <BR>
> The population item in the UPP is a power of 10, so a zero 10 to<BR>
> the zero power, or 1 to 9 inhabitants.  It's either an<BR>
> anarcho-syndicalist collective or a family.<BR>
<BR>
FWIW, the PBG code lists precisely six inhabitants (and BtC sez that they<BR>
are all scouts in charge of operating the beacon for the starport-- among<BR>
other things).<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
James W. Lindsay             Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada<BR>
Website: http://members.home.net/jlindsay          ICQ: #7521644<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
If at first you DO succeed, try not to look astonished!<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2000 09:40:08 +1200<BR>
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: can "habitable" worlds exist around M-V stars?<BR>
<BR>
If you haven't already, read Greg Bear's "Heart of the Comet"  some of the<BR>
"survivors" in the comet survived on what was effectively no TL, just<BR>
symbiosis with the local flora.<BR>
<BR>
Just another possibility !<BR>
<BR>
Frankie<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 16:31:09 -0500<BR>
From: "VonRammen" <von_rammen@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Unified Grav Theory<BR>
<BR>
"Luther Martin" <martin@ksarul.com> wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>So grav technology is really the first step to jump technology. No<BR>
conservation of <whatever> >problems, either.<BR>
<BR>
This would appear to be implied by canon. IIRC, all of the major races (even<BR>
Aslan) were described as having discovered jump drive while working on a new<BR>
manuever drive technology--assuming that CT manuever drives were<BR>
reactionless thruster drives.<BR>
<BR>
Fred Ramen<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2000 09:44:53 +1200<BR>
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: Jumpstart locations<BR>
<BR>
> On Behalf Of Peter Miller<BR>
> I just picked up a copy of the T:NE book, "Survival Margin", and must say<BR>
> its definitely an enjoyable read.  One item mentioned over and<BR>
> over in the<BR>
> book in Strephon's journal entires and in a letter to Norris are the<BR>
> 'jumpstart' locations.  I was wondering if anyone would be able<BR>
> to shed any<BR>
> light on exactly what these are.  I don't have any other TNE material<BR>
> except the main rulebook, so I'm a bit in the dark.<BR>
<BR>
They are technology and information caches (mainly information, with enough<BR>
technology to read it) that were placed in preperation of for the fall of<BR>
civilization, very similar to the way Asimov's "Foundation" worked during<BR>
it's fall.<BR>
<BR>
Designed so that people could find them and "jumpstart" the rebuilding of<BR>
civilization.<BR>
<BR>
Frankie<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 14:50:40 -0700<BR>
From: Jason Postma <JasonP@i-link.net><BR>
Subject: RE: Jumpstart locations<BR>
<BR>
Even more similar to the Motie "museums" in "The Mote in God's Eye".<BR>
Because of the cyclical nature of Motie civilization, museums (controled by<BR>
curators with no offspring so that they couldn't be tempted to expand their<BR>
territory) were set up with locks that could only be opened with extensive<BR>
mathematical and astronomical knowledge.  The inside was a collection of<BR>
technological artifacts and historical "exhibits", to speed the recovery<BR>
from the latest fall of civilization.<BR>
<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
From: Frank G. Pitt [mailto:frankie@mundens.gen.nz]<BR>
Sent: Friday, March 31, 2000 2:45 PM<BR>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Subject: RE: Jumpstart locations<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> On Behalf Of Peter Miller<BR>
> I just picked up a copy of the T:NE book, "Survival Margin", and must say<BR>
> its definitely an enjoyable read.  One item mentioned over and<BR>
> over in the<BR>
> book in Strephon's journal entires and in a letter to Norris are the<BR>
> 'jumpstart' locations.  I was wondering if anyone would be able<BR>
> to shed any<BR>
> light on exactly what these are.  I don't have any other TNE material<BR>
> except the main rulebook, so I'm a bit in the dark.<BR>
<BR>
They are technology and information caches (mainly information, with enough<BR>
technology to read it) that were placed in preperation of for the fall of<BR>
civilization, very similar to the way Asimov's "Foundation" worked during<BR>
it's fall.<BR>
<BR>
Designed so that people could find them and "jumpstart" the rebuilding of<BR>
civilization.<BR>
<BR>
Frankie<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 12:39:59 -0900<BR>
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re D&D Known World & S3<BR>
<BR>
>>> It's not an accident<BR>
>>> that the module was similar in many ways, and it's pretty much a given<BR>
>that<BR>
>>> the segment of the ship that crashlanded on Greyhawk was part of the<BR>
>Warden.<BR>
>><BR>
>>I suspect not.<BR>
<BR>
Don't you mean Mystara? Blackmoor is on mystara, not greyhawk. And the ship<BR>
in question was the SS Beagle. Which was a Star Frontiers tie-in. or, at<BR>
least, was tied in to SF later. It's defined in the Gaz for Glantri the<BR>
ship was the Beagle, and brought down Blackmoor by changing the spin.<BR>
<BR>
>Frank Pitt said:<BR>
><BR>
>> While you are substantially correct, my copy of the Deluxe edition of S3<BR>
>is<BR>
>> copyright 1980, and this edition was released some time after the original<BR>
>> monochrome edition. The module itself was first run at Origins II.<BR>
><BR>
>S3 never had a monochrome / pastel edition. It was first published in 1980,<BR>
>which was the year TSR switched to color covers.<BR>
<BR>
many of the monocrome copies of the tournament module were apparently made<BR>
available. I've seen 3 with 1976 copyrights float through stores up here. I<BR>
first played S3 in 79. from a black and white only module.<BR>
<BR>
William F. Hostman  |  "Smith & Wesson: THe original Point and Click<BR>
interface!"<BR>
Aramis 0602 C55A364-C S kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge-<BR>
533<BR>
aramis@gci.net http://home.gci.net/~aramis Vilani: uilamaanamti sirohbrankilin<BR>
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn- t4-- tt+ to- tg-- ru+ ge 3i+ c+ jt-() au+ st- ls<BR>
pi+() ta+ he+(-) kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge- pi+<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 12:30:28 -0900<BR>
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re Gut Grenades<BR>
<BR>
>> As every US veteran in the group immediate reaches for their Pepto-Bismol<BR>
>> just from rembering eating one of those monsters.<BR>
><BR>
>Ok, I gotta say it. Even if it confirms some people's suspicions that<BR>
>I'm an alien...<BR>
><BR>
>I *liked* the burgers at the Base Exchange's cafeteria.<BR>
><BR>
>Of course that *could* be because I started eating them at around age 4...<BR>
<BR>
I STILL like AAFES food. I find it to be, dollar for dollar, better than<BR>
90% of the civil market. THen again, I'm used to eating at the O-clubs.<BR>
(THe Navy's Dosiado Rome Galley, at Pearl Harbor, however, was like a<BR>
buffet style of 4-star food.)<BR>
<BR>
OTOH, I don't care for in-unit cooks. they tend not to do to well in far<BR>
too many cases.<BR>
<BR>
Ob Trav: 1234th Szechuan Rangers wind up with Bland Shugilli for their unit<BR>
cook. Who changed his name to match his tast in food. And they're stuck so<BR>
far from terra and from New Szechuan that they can't find a cook who can do<BR>
the unit's tradional hot and flavorful. Think of the morale problems. Think<BR>
of the cook-offs.<BR>
<BR>
William F. Hostman  |  "Smith & Wesson: THe original Point and Click<BR>
interface!"<BR>
Aramis 0602 C55A364-C S kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge-<BR>
533<BR>
aramis@gci.net http://home.gci.net/~aramis Vilani: uilamaanamti sirohbrankilin<BR>
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn- t4-- tt+ to- tg-- ru+ ge 3i+ c+ jt-() au+ st- ls<BR>
pi+() ta+ he+(-) kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge- pi+<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 16:36:53 -0600<BR>
From: "Pat Connaughton" <pconn@i1.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Jumpstart locations<BR>
<BR>
In the same vein, what about hyper-loyal imperials<BR>
who'd play Twilight 2000 for the "greater glory of the<BR>
Emperium (sic)" and be also stored away with the<BR>
other supplies at the "jumpstart site"<BR>
<BR>
You could clone and the freeze a very effective<BR>
techie group and the some really good troops<BR>
to protect them really cost effectively.<BR>
<BR>
What a great way to project an imperialistic<BR>
concept down the centuries.<BR>
<BR>
Any comments?<BR>
Thanks<BR>
Pat Connaughton <BR>
ICQ # 2535086<BR>
pconn@i1.net<BR>
"He who knows not how to dissemble knows not<BR>
how to reign"<BR>
Tiberius, Emperator and Princips of Rome<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 14:48:34 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Landgrab: consultants sought for work on Mongo <BR>
<BR>
>From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com><BR>
<BR>
>In converting my 15 year  old  notes  on  Yori  for  the <BR>
>current"Landgrab" exercise, it occurred to me that I was  a  <BR>
>lot less scientifically literate 15 years ago than I am now.  <BR>
<BR>
(I'm not sure I'm quoting Peter.)  I've had something of the<BR>
opposite experience, and am probably less literate in scientific<BR>
matters now than when I first started using Book 6 a very long<BR>
time ago.  I'm also less interested in working through tables<BR>
and solving formulae and stuff like that.  I want to write the<BR>
history, economics, politics, personalities, tourist<BR>
destinations, adventure opportunities and stuff like that.  <BR>
<BR>
So if anyone would like to be my consultant on the physical<BR>
aspects of Mongo, please contact me off-list.  <BR>
<BR>
Thank you.<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
Glenn M. Goffin, Esq.<BR>
Honorary Consul to Terra<BR>
Of the Government of the Planet Mongo<BR>
and Its Most Protuberant and Munificent Ruler<BR>
Ming the Merciless<BR>
<BR>
HAIL MING!<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.<BR>
http://im.yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 14:52:12 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Negative Mass<BR>
<BR>
>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
<BR>
> )."Timemaster"<BR>
<BR>
A little dyslexia is a dangerous thing.  I saw "Timetaster" and<BR>
wondered if it was a science fiction cook book.<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.<BR>
http://im.yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 18:04:13 -0500<BR>
From: "Josh W. Spencer" <macmanjws@earthlink.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Janitor<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> Sounds rather like the stunt one group came up with. They were tired of<BR>
> "wasting time" dealing with annoyances like orcs and kobolds on the way<BR>
> to the deeper levels of the dungeon. Someone came up with a bright<BR>
> idea, and, after he quit laughing, the DM admitted that it ought to<BR>
> work. <BR>
> <BR>
> So next trip, the party included half a dozen bagpipes. And they<BR>
> started *playing* them as they entered the dungeon.<BR>
> <BR>
> As expected, the reaction of the typical low level type was "Anybody<BR>
> making *that* much racket is someoone I want to be far, far away<BR>
> from..." <BR>
> <BR>
> And yes, it *di* tend to mean that our first enocounter on the lower<BR>
> levels was an ambush of sorts. But when you are *expecting* it, an<BR>
> ambush is more annoying than deadly.<BR>
<BR>
My God, what was that character playing..."Scotland the Brave"???????? :) :)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Josh W. Spencer (macmanjws@earthlink.net)<BR>
VILANI ALIAS: Iashir Rekiinikimas Uiagam<BR>
Ypsilanti, Michigan, North America, Terra<BR>
Sol Subsector, Solomani Rim Sector<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 14:33:56 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Grav Powered Floating Cities<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Leonard Erickson writes:<BR>
><BR>
>> > Nope. Take a look at http://www.concentric.net/~pvb/negmass.html for<BR>
>> > example.<BR>
>> <BR>
>> Unless it's an actual *experiment*, I'll stick with the version I<BR>
>> posted, which is based on Dr. Robert Forward speculations.<BR>
><BR>
> Basically, negative mass has both negative weight and negative inertia.  This<BR>
> means that it falls towards a planet (if you apply force to something with<BR>
> negative inertia, it moves in the opposite direction).<BR>
<BR>
Right, but you overlooked the fact that according to Newton's Law of<BR>
Gravity, the net force between a piece of positive matter and a piece<BR>
of negative matter is *repulsive*. <BR>
<BR>
So, true, the negative matter moves towards the planet, but the planet<BR>
moves *away* from the negative matter...<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 14:37:06 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: can "habitable" worlds exist around M-V stars?<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
>>Keep in mind that TL 1 *starts* with the bronze age and extends thru <BR>
>>the middle ages (up to 1400 according to the Traveller Book). <BR>
>><BR>
>>And they had things like *concrete* back then. Which will leak only <BR>
>>slowly, if at all, depending on additives. Metal sheathed wooden doors <BR>
>>are within their ability. As is production of large mirrors to <BR>
>>concentrate sunlight. <BR>
><BR>
> I was more thinking that a TL1 society couldn't build a pump capable<BR>
> of reducing the airlock to near-vacuum. Then I realize they wouldn't<BR>
> have to, they'd just have to crank open an outside valve and release<BR>
> the air.<BR>
<BR>
You might be surprised. Otto von Guerikke(sp?) created the first vacuum<BR>
pump sometime between 1300 and 1600. I don't have any references handy.<BR>
<BR>
Sure, they can't get a *real* vacuum (except by opening the door), but<BR>
they *can* scavenge at least 90% of the air in the lock.<BR>
<BR>
> Still, I imagine any outside engineering projects would be a real<BR>
> trial for a TL1 society. <BR>
<BR>
Which is why I figure that only the plants get the "domes", and they<BR>
are likely to be fairly small, so they can't lose to much if there's a<BR>
leak. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 14:41:56 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller 3D maps and Computers at the game table<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> I couldn't help but notice you were chatting about 3d star mapping. This is<BR>
> one of my top interest pints with a Traveller style gaming system. I do not<BR>
> like your ploy to use cubic space, to me there is no logic in it.<BR>
<BR>
I merely referred to cubes because it was easier to make my point that<BR>
way. <BR>
<BR>
> I mean if<BR>
> your moving diagonally as opposed to up and down or from left to right or<BR>
> forward and backwards then the distance variance is something like the<BR>
> square root of 2 to 1. What is wrong with mapping with a real time chart, as<BR>
> far as we know it?<BR>
<BR>
You missed the earlier posts where I was advocating actually measuring<BR>
the distances in the model. Or at least using a "jump length" stick on<BR>
the end of a wire to see if stars were close enough.<BR>
<BR>
> Using the stars, planets and their moons centre points as their position<BR>
> reference points and then their dimensions, and gravitational holds on other<BR>
> masses a much more accurate/ realistic picture can be drawn up. Bearing in<BR>
> mind such data would only be required as a screen shot when requested.<BR>
> Resolution may then be left open to the players choice upon request with a<BR>
> scan micro.<BR>
<BR>
Star systems tend to be flat because of the way stars and planets form<BR>
from a *disk*. So 3D doesn't add much there. But maps of multiple star<BR>
systems are a different matter.<BR>
<BR>
> Also with the above idea for a solution to the problem there includes the<BR>
> fact that stars planets and their moons do move and change position, all<BR>
> relative to each other.<BR>
<BR>
That can be handled easily enough on flat maps. Check out the old SPI<BR>
game "Battlefleet: Mars" for a good example.<BR>
<BR>
They simply had a "track" for each planet counter, divided into one<BR>
"day" sections. So every time events passed "midnight", you moved each<BR>
planet counter one space on its orbit.<BR>
<BR>
Yes, doing it on a computer is better. But this works nicely enough,<BR>
*especially* given Traveler's use of standard orbit spacing. <BR>
<BR>
Orbits that are at all elliptical tend to be a pain to deal with even<BR>
on a computer. The equations are *ugly*...<BR>
<BR>
But for roughly circular ones, you can handle them easily on paper<BR>
maps. Just keep in mind that you *do* need to calculate starting<BR>
points, which means being able to figure the days between dates. <BR>
<BR>
You'll also need several "scales", since any map that shows stuff out<BR>
as far as Mars will be pretty big if you want reasonably sized "boxes"<BR>
for the "Mars" planet. <BR>
<BR>
Another map starting with Mars and showing the outer planets, with<BR>
orbits divided into one week, 10 day, or even 14 day boxes would be<BR>
good. You could even keep the inner worlds, though you'd have to<BR>
estimate the positions. <BR>
<BR>
And, for the occasional planet with moons worth worrying about, you do<BR>
a scale map of the planet & moon system, again with boxes. Except that<BR>
in the case of most gas giants, the orbits are more likely to be<BR>
divided into *hourly* increments. <BR>
<BR>
One of Jupiter's "big 4" moons is at about the same distance from the<BR>
center of Jupiter that Luna is from Terra. But instead of 28 days it<BR>
only takes *4*...<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2227<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2228</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
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Traveller-digest       Friday, March 31 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2228<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Traveller 3D maps and Computers at the game table<BR>
Re: Traveller 3D maps and Computers at the game table<BR>
Re: Grav Powered Floating Cities<BR>
Re: The Beyond<BR>
Re: Landgrab: Questions on Yori<BR>
Re: Grav Powered Floating Cities<BR>
Draft thoughts on Ochetate<BR>
Re: Re Gut Grenades<BR>
Re: Jumpstart locations<BR>
Re: Weather control was Re: Grav-powered floating cities II<BR>
Evidence of a free Press in the Third Imperium<BR>
Re: TML Landgrab<BR>
Re: Negative Mass<BR>
Re Gut Grenades<BR>
Landgrab: Esalin<BR>
A few more map updates<BR>
Re: Grav Powered Floating Cities<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2226<BR>
Re: Stellar Data question...<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 14:57:20 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller 3D maps and Computers at the game table<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> At 19:23 31.03.00 +0100, Michael J Scanlon wrote:<BR>
>>I couldn't help but notice you were chatting about 3d star mapping. <BR>
><BR>
> Thank you for reposting the entire artlce. So I can answer Leonard inspite<BR>
> of the fact that I accidentally lost my own copy of it... I'll answer you<BR>
> posting seperately.<BR>
><BR>
>>----- Original Message -----<BR>
>>From: Leonard Erickson <shadow@krypton.rain.com><BR>
>>To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
>>Sent: 30 March 2000 03:27<BR>
>>Subject: Re: Traveller 3D maps and Computers at the game table<BR>
><BR>
> [snip]<BR>
>>> So how about we go for a 50 cm display at 2 cm to the parsec. That's<BR>
>>> 25^3, or 15,625 "hexes". With a 50% chance per "hex" for a star, that's<BR>
>>> over 7800 stars. It'll take a long time for the players to explore all<BR>
>>> of that. Yet this is an area *only* 5 jumps across at J5 or J6.<BR>
><BR>
>>> One *advantage* of this is that it makes the prevalence of<BR>
>>> "unihabitable" planets more tolerable. It also makes it easier to<BR>
>>> explain how "splinter cultures" were able to escape and be left alone.<BR>
><BR>
> Are you referring to any splinter society I should know?<BR>
<BR>
Not in particular. Just the "classic" idea of some group going off to<BR>
be left alone and actually *managing* it, which is next to impossible<BR>
in the OTU.<BR>
<BR>
>>> They can wilderness refuel a few times and be lost among *hundreds* of<BR>
>>> worlds at that distance from the homeworld. And it'll be a long time<BR>
>>> before governmental "explore all the worlds as you go" type exploration<BR>
>>> reaches them.<BR>
><BR>
> But you have a problem with the Imperium being ridiculouly small, compared<BR>
> to the OTU and considering travel times. It changes more than just a major<BR>
> detail... I mean, any message would need merely eight weeks to get<BR>
> anywhere. The economic advantage of higher jump numbers in 3D is<BR>
> considerable. There would not be much left of the OTU. You would have to do<BR>
> a lot of work on your own...<BR>
<BR>
The OTU and 3D mapping *aren't* compatible. Then again, I'm far more<BR>
comfortable taking the rules, and technology, and generating my own<BR>
background... <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 15:00:00 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller 3D maps and Computers at the game table<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>>Also with the above idea for a solution to the problem there includes the<BR>
>>fact that stars planets and their moons do move and change position, all<BR>
>>relative to each other.<BR>
><BR>
> Well, on this, the movement of stars is relatively irrelevant. Most<BR>
> campaigns don't last centuries of game time, and still, speaking in<BR>
> interstellar dimensions, there is not much change to the astronomical<BR>
> coordinates of stars relative to each other, even over the centuries.<BR>
<BR>
Well, I think we've determined that given the 2-3 millenia that is<BR>
"history" for the OTU, there *are* a few stars that will be in a<BR>
different hex than they occupy "now". <BR>
<BR>
Not many, but it *is* something that would need to be checked when<BR>
working from *old* maps/surveys.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 15:20:19 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Grav Powered Floating Cities<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erickson writes:<BR>
> In mail you write:<BR>
> <BR>
> > Leonard Erickson writes:<BR>
> ><BR>
> >> > Nope. Take a look at http://www.concentric.net/~pvb/negmass.html for<BR>
> >> > example.<BR>
> >> <BR>
> >> Unless it's an actual *experiment*, I'll stick with the version I<BR>
> >> posted, which is based on Dr. Robert Forward speculations.<BR>
> ><BR>
> > Basically, negative mass has both negative weight and negative inertia. <BR>
> > This means that it falls towards a planet (if you apply force to<BR>
> > something with negative inertia, it moves in the opposite direction).<BR>
> <BR>
> Right, but you overlooked the fact that according to Newton's Law of<BR>
> Gravity, the net force between a piece of positive matter and a piece<BR>
> of negative matter is *repulsive*. <BR>
> <BR>
> So, true, the negative matter moves towards the planet, but the planet<BR>
> moves *away* from the negative matter...<BR>
<BR>
Yes, but nowhere near as fast.  Unless, of course, the total mass of the system<BR>
is zero (in which case the system accelerates in one direction) or less than<BR>
zero (in which case the planet is repelled).<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 17:18:46 -0600<BR>
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com><BR>
Subject: Re: The Beyond<BR>
<BR>
James W. Lindsay posted:<BR>
><BR>
>On Sun, 26 Mar 2000 21:39:39 -0600, Michael Maley wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>> I've just added text system information from my campaign <BR>
onto my site<BR>
>> for the Beyond sector.  With any luck I'll have all the <BR>
>> sectors typed up<BR>
>> by Tuesday.  Some of the information is per Paranoid <BR>
>> Press' Beyond book<BR>
>> and some I've added or adapted for my campaign.<BR>
>> <BR>
>> darkhstarr (link if interested is below)<BR>
>> <BR>
>> www.geocities.com/area51/shuttle/4897/darkhstarr/index.html<BR>
><BR>
>URL does not compute :(<BR>
<BR>
Try going up a couple of levels to:<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shuttle/4897/<BR>
<BR>
You'll have to poke around his links on the bottom<BR>
left of his page.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
David<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 18:38:06 EST<BR>
From: GypsyComet@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Landgrab: Questions on Yori<BR>
<BR>
"Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com> asks:<BR>
<BR>
>In converting my 15 year  old  notes  on  Yori  for  the  current<BR>
>"Landgrab" exercise, it occurred to me that  I  was  a  lot  less<BR>
>scientifically literate 15 years ago than  I  am  now.  I  am  no<BR>
>longer sure of  the  validity  of  one  of  the  key  geophysical<BR>
>features (which in turn underpins the bulk of the  ecosystem).  I<BR>
>am not sure its invalid either.  I'd like the  list's  scientific<BR>
>opinion on whether the idea (below) is completely out to lunch or<BR>
>not ... or if it can be made to work with some tweaking:<BR>
><BR>
>    Given that the world is  very  dense  ("heavy  core")  I  had<BR>
>    postulated that the core had contracted and Yori's oceans had<BR>
>    drained into cavities that opened up below  the  surface  ...<BR>
>    forming  a  subterranean  sea  or  seas.   (Obvious  possible<BR>
>    reasons for the core  contracting  include  activity  by  the<BR>
>    Ancients ... by the TNE era an Ancient site *had* been  found<BR>
>    there according to canon.)<BR>
<BR>
 I'm not sure I care about its scientific validity. A chance to adventure on <BR>
Gamelon, er, Yori would be cool.<BR>
 As a world that has kept a decent atmosphere (6) despite its size (3), Yori <BR>
is a good candidate for a heavy core and higher than expected gravity.<BR>
 To cause the kind of pockets you are looking for, the planet would need to <BR>
have been the target of an artist with FS equipment. A weapon would (should) <BR>
not have left much useable surface on the planet, and any water would likely <BR>
be scattered into smaller, highly irregular pockets. Great underworld seas <BR>
like those found on Gamelon or in fantasy (ie. sailable) would require a more <BR>
controlled origin.<BR>
 Since the Ancients are already involved, it need not have been a weapon that <BR>
caused the cavities in the crust. Perhaps they were involved in mining by <BR>
Gate?<BR>
<BR>
 Another possibility is that the world used to be dominated by limestone <BR>
forming conditions (warm, shallow seas; small carbonate-fixing organisms with <BR>
shells). By the time the Ancients moved in a thick layer of ancient <BR>
limestone, dolemite, and other carbonaceous strata was a fairly dominant <BR>
geological feature. Whatever the Ancients were doing on Yori, they were wiped <BR>
out by something which had the side-effect of making the seas much more <BR>
acidic for a while. Karst topography (water-formed, living caves) formation <BR>
began with a vengeance. In some areas this led to small "ponds" or lakes <BR>
whose related flooded caves systems are incredibly deep and convoluted. In <BR>
other places the entire sea eventually drained below the surface, sloshing <BR>
around in huge networks of interconnected cavities which continued to grow <BR>
until the limestone eventually neutralized the Ancients-caused acidity.<BR>
 On the surface, the surface water is usually only found in regions with <BR>
silicate (ie. volcanic) bedrock, and isn't very common there. A few of the <BR>
aforementioned 'ponds' exist out in the limestone badlands (think of the <BR>
wind-carved sandstones you find in deserts, but MUCH rougher), but are of <BR>
questionable purity and tend to be hard to reach (being at the "bottoms" of <BR>
holes, heh). How much water is really below the surface? Up to you.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
GC<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2000 00:38:59 +0100<BR>
From: "Nick Bradbeer" <nickb@ndirect.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: Grav Powered Floating Cities<BR>
<BR>
>So, true, the negative matter moves towards the planet, but the planet<BR>
>moves *away* from the negative matter...<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
I'm not going to comment on the theory, since I'm far from qualified.<BR>
<BR>
But if we're using this as an explanation of thruser plates, isn't the<BR>
amount of negative mass required to generate 6G going to cause hideous tidal<BR>
effects? And unavoidably so, since the very repulsive forces which are<BR>
propelling the ship will be causing these?<BR>
<BR>
Nick<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2000 09:41:42 +1000<BR>
From: "Katharine Whitchurch" <katts@globalfreeway.com.au><BR>
Subject: Draft thoughts on Ochetate<BR>
<BR>
The world I've grabbed for the landgrab is Ochetate in 5 Sisters. It is a<BR>
colony of Mewey, which is kinda interesting considering Mewey is itself TL5.<BR>
<BR>
Very little of this is about the astrophysics of Ochetate's system -<BR>
although if anyone wants to do a full Book 6/WBH/FI writeup of a E747569-7<BR>
210 G8V M8D system I'd be grateful (*hint*).<BR>
<BR>
The best way this all makes sense for me is geo-politics. Mewey sits astride<BR>
the route from Glisten and Mertactor to the Imperial possessions in the<BR>
Rimward part of Five Sisters (notably the naval bases at Raweh and Wonstar).<BR>
Geopolitically, the 5 Sisters/D268 region is a football between the Imperium<BR>
and the Sword Worlds and it's clients and allies (eg Garoo, Trexalon, maybe<BR>
Forine), so I dont think the Imperium would have too much problems with<BR>
supporting one of it's client states by allowing it to take a "transit fee"<BR>
of traffic passing through it's systems and using that to hire off-world<BR>
mercenaries to maintain it's hold on it's colony.<BR>
<BR>
This is the basis of Mewey's interstellar economy - basically, a transit fee<BR>
of ICr 200 per dton of cargo passing through Mewey would raise approximately<BR>
IMCr 50 per annum. If we assume the security of Mewey itself is guaranteed<BR>
by Imperial equipment provided on long term leases (funded by some very soft<BR>
loans). Thus the whole of the transit fee can go to arming and equipping the<BR>
Mewey military.<BR>
<BR>
It is neccessary for the Mewey ruling class to keep control of Ochetate,<BR>
because a free and independant Ochetate will allow the Imperium an alternate<BR>
route from Quiaathat and Wonstar through to Avastan and then Collace. If<BR>
Ochetate becomes free they lose much of their bargaining power with the<BR>
Imperium etc etc.<BR>
<BR>
OK. Mewey is an Impersonal Bureaucracy with a high law level, so I'm<BR>
thinking one of those unpleasant Central American type military<BR>
dictatorships. Very little civil society, arbitrary arrest of opponents of<BR>
the regime, etc.<BR>
<BR>
Ochetate's exports (and it has a significant amount of those to Collace,<BR>
Glisten and Quiaithat) may only be purchased by licenced purchasing agents,<BR>
which although allegedly distributed on the basis of an open tender are<BR>
actually sold by the Governor of Ochetate.<BR>
<BR>
All trade to or from Ochetate has to go through Mewey.<BR>
<BR>
There are 200 000 residents of Ochetate, so the Mewey regime would need<BR>
about 800 TL8-9 troops to conclusively crush any sort of rebellion. Fishing<BR>
boats dont do too well against grav APCs. I'm thinking a HQ company of 50<BR>
people, plus a 4 gun Grav-mobile Artillery Battery, plus about 20 Grav APCs<BR>
each carrying a squad of troops armed with automatic weapons.<BR>
<BR>
An orbiting space station has a PEMS and a big laser battery (I'm thinking<BR>
of something like the Telstar Communications Satellite. But not quite as<BR>
gross).<BR>
<BR>
If I can afford it, I'll toss in half a dozen aerospace fighters. We should<BR>
be able to afford all that on MCr 50 Imperial per annum.<BR>
<BR>
OK, so where do the PCs come into this ?<BR>
<BR>
Obviously, the point is to play "lets try and free the good people of<BR>
Ochetate so<BR>
    1) they can live without the dead hand of the Mewey regime at their<BR>
throat<BR>
    2) we can buy their exports without having to pay massive bribes to the<BR>
Colonial Governor<BR>
    3) we can get a cut of all the trade going from Wonstar and Quiathat to<BR>
Collace and Glisten<BR>
    4) they can make me the Marquis of Ochetate when they apply for<BR>
incorporation into the Imperium, and this gets me a seat at Court and<BR>
membership of the Glisten Polo Grounds".  Delete reasons as appropriate.<BR>
<BR>
Now, the only minor problem with this (apart from the big orbiting space<BR>
station, the troops and the fact that Mewey has a somewhat efficient network<BR>
of collaborators, spies and secret police on Ochetate) is that the Imperium<BR>
really doesnt mind the fact that Ochetate is being oppressed, and anything<BR>
that disrupts the relationship between Mewey and the Imperium is a Bad<BR>
Thing.<BR>
<BR>
Basically, unless the Imperium can be presented with the independance of<BR>
Ochetate with a pro-Imperial government as an accomplished fact, it will<BR>
probably either look the other way as Mewey reasserts control, or actively<BR>
help them "restore security".<BR>
<BR>
A potential ally in this is the Elixabethers. They used to be a colony of<BR>
Forine, which appears to have the same sort of unpleasant government as<BR>
Mewey, and they may be willing to try and assist. The Elixabethers run a<BR>
freight and passenger concern, Rapier Lines, that trades throughout District<BR>
268, so they may be able to help by picking up all sorts of things on all<BR>
sorts of worlds.<BR>
<BR>
A dangerous game could be played with the Sword Worlds - their intelligence<BR>
service may be interested in making trouble for an Imperial client state,<BR>
although this risks Imperial counter-intelligence finding out.<BR>
<BR>
As always, the Megacorps may be willing to help, although their isnt much<BR>
difference between being a colony of Mewey and a neo-colony of Ling Standard<BR>
Products (after all, the LSP Security Personell are only at the starport to<BR>
secure LSP's assets).<BR>
<BR>
Finally, the Imperium being the sort of place it is, the views of the<BR>
Admiral in charge of Wonstar and the Imperial representitives on Mewey and<BR>
Ochetate are going to be fairly critical. The IISS could also be a player.<BR>
<BR>
So, what do people think ?<BR>
<BR>
Ian Whitchurch<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 15:29:13 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Re Gut Grenades<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>>> As every US veteran in the group immediate reaches for their Pepto-Bismol<BR>
>>> just from rembering eating one of those monsters.<BR>
>><BR>
>>Ok, I gotta say it. Even if it confirms some people's suspicions that<BR>
>>I'm an alien...<BR>
>><BR>
>>I *liked* the burgers at the Base Exchange's cafeteria.<BR>
>><BR>
>>Of course that *could* be because I started eating them at around age 4...<BR>
><BR>
> I STILL like AAFES food. I find it to be, dollar for dollar, better than<BR>
> 90% of the civil market. THen again, I'm used to eating at the O-clubs.<BR>
> (THe Navy's Dosiado Rome Galley, at Pearl Harbor, however, was like a<BR>
> buffet style of 4-star food.)<BR>
><BR>
> OTOH, I don't care for in-unit cooks. they tend not to do to well in far<BR>
> too many cases.<BR>
><BR>
> Ob Trav: 1234th Szechuan Rangers wind up with Bland Shugilli for their unit<BR>
> cook. Who changed his name to match his tast in food. And they're stuck so<BR>
> far from terra and from New Szechuan that they can't find a cook who can do<BR>
> the unit's tradional hot and flavorful. Think of the morale problems. Think<BR>
> of the cook-offs.<BR>
<BR>
Well, if I was the CO, I think my first move would be to tell him that<BR>
the troopies he's cooking for have special "vitamin" needs. And that<BR>
the "hot oil", and spices supply them. And *surely* an *experienced*<BR>
shugilli like himself can find a way to work these into the food<BR>
acceptably... <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 15:37:56 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Jumpstart locations<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> In the same vein, what about hyper-loyal imperials<BR>
> who'd play Twilight 2000 for the "greater glory of the<BR>
> Emperium (sic)" and be also stored away with the<BR>
> other supplies at the "jumpstart site"<BR>
><BR>
> You could clone and the freeze a very effective<BR>
> techie group and the some really good troops<BR>
> to protect them really cost effectively.<BR>
><BR>
> What a great way to project an imperialistic<BR>
> concept down the centuries.<BR>
><BR>
> Any comments?<BR>
<BR>
Yeah, why re-invent The Morrow Project? ;-)<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 16:01:26<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Weather control was Re: Grav-powered floating cities II<BR>
<BR>
At 10:56 AM 3/31/2000 PST, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>> Biut the New Madrid fault doesn't affect Des Moines, or Madison WI, or<BR>
>> Oklahoma City...and they don't even get many tornadoes or floods in<BR>
>> Madison...<BR>
<BR>
If the New Madrid Fault Zone let loose with its full potential, as it did<BR>
in the early 19th Century, it would ring church bells in New York City.<BR>
<BR>
The Madrid swarm consited of three separate 8+ Richter quakes in the space<BR>
of a month, which caused the Mississippi to flow backwards for some time,<BR>
and submerged entire towns when the river came back.<BR>
<BR>
In some place, the vertical cahnge was more than forty feet.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 17:11:16 -0700<BR>
From: Jason Postma <JasonP@i-link.net><BR>
Subject: Evidence of a free Press in the Third Imperium<BR>
<BR>
CAPITAL/CORE DATE: 081-1123 <BR>
<BR>
Lucan bluntly forbade the Imperial Ministry of Justice from continuing its<BR>
investigations into what is now known as the Nodokundu affair on Manshuruk<BR>
(Dagudashag Sector). <BR>
<BR>
Making his first public appearance in three weeks, Lucan went on to warn<BR>
Traveller News Service that its coverage of these events was "meddlesome and<BR>
prying." TNS should discontinue following this story, he said, lest the<BR>
service find itself "suspected of treasonous tendencies." <BR>
<BR>
The issuance of such a warning to the TNS is without Imperial precedent. <BR>
<BR>
One former TNS editor suggested that Lucan's extreme reaction could indicate<BR>
that the mutagenic pathogen responsible for the metamorphosis of Emile<BR>
Nodokundu and others might be a retrovirus created -- and tested -- by<BR>
Lucan's biowar experts. <BR>
<BR>
The Imperial Ministry of Justice has made no public reply to Lucan's decree.<BR>
However, rumors suggest that the ministry has initiated negotiations with<BR>
Duke Craig regarding the establishment of a new headquarters and primary<BR>
training facility in Daibei sector. [Challenge 57] <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
The TNS apparently found it noteworthy that Lucan indirectly threatened<BR>
them, good evidence that they are used to having a fairly free reign in what<BR>
stories they decide to develop and publish.<BR>
 <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 16:40:44 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: TML Landgrab<BR>
<BR>
>From: "James W. Lindsay" <jlindsay@home.com><BR>
<BR>
>According to BtC, Quopist is the home of both humans and the <BR>
>"Jonkeereen"-- an unknown race (at least there's no write-up in<BR>
<BR>
>BtC that I can find).  The races are divided approximately <BR>
>47%/53% respectively.<BR>
<BR>
That sounds vaguely familiar, but I recall the Jonkeereen from<BR>
much longer ago, like CT or MT era.  I'll see what I can find as<BR>
I'm going through back issues of Challenge, etc., for<BR>
information on Mongo.<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.<BR>
http://im.yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 18:26:11 -0600<BR>
From: Richard Wilson <rtwilson@rollanet.org><BR>
Subject: Re: Negative Mass<BR>
<BR>
At 12:42 PM 3/31/00 -0500, you wrote:<BR>
>In a message dated 3/31/00 8:35:41 AM Pacific Standard Time,<BR>
>owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com writes:<BR>
><BR>
> > More importantly how will the concept of negative mass<BR>
> >  affect the possibility of accelerating ships to near C<BR>
> >  velocities and punching them into planets?<BR>
><BR>
>Read one of Robert Forward's books (can't recall which, but it included a<BR>
>drive based on that plus time-travel made possible by the near-C speeds :)  ).<BR>
<BR>
Timemaster<BR>
<BR>
>Bryan<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Richard Wilson<BR>
<BR>
rtwilson@rollanet.org<BR>
<BR>
========================================================================<BR>
Humanity is not something we should aspire to. It is something we should<BR>
strive to overcome.<BR>
========================================================================<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 17:02:13 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re Gut Grenades<BR>
<BR>
>From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net><BR>
<BR>
>Ob Trav: 1234th Szechuan Rangers wind up with Bland Shugilli <BR>
>for their unit cook. Who changed his name to match his tast in <BR>
>food. And they're stuck so far from terra and from New Szechuan<BR>
<BR>
>that they can't find a cook who can do the unit's tradional hot<BR>
<BR>
>and flavorful. Think of the morale problems. Think of the cook-<BR>
>offs.<BR>
<BR>
Imperial Colonial Forces Trooop Carrier AR-138<BR>
Landing Craft Hangar Deck<BR>
103-1109 22:38 hr<BR>
<BR>
The top kick addresses a platoon:<BR>
<BR>
"OK kids lissenup!  We're posted to Cipatwe to clean out Zhos<BR>
and Iggies, but the Old Man tells me they've bolted back to<BR>
Zho-n-iggyland and we're bolting too after a quick turn.  Now<BR>
Cipatwe as all of you scholars know -- yes I am talking about<BR>
you Cpl. Niffog -- is known in this misbegotten sector as the<BR>
most food and flavor obsessed culture ever conceived.  So I need<BR>
two volunteers for a dangerous mission once we hit dirt: <BR>
Private Ho and Lance Sergeant Zheng front and center.  <BR>
<BR>
"You two are biggest gripers about Cookies' failure to do it<BR>
like Mom does it, so I'm giving you each a 12 hour pass, Cr500<BR>
cash from the regimental discretionary fund -- approved by the<BR>
RXO no less -- a tourist guide to the shopping district, and the<BR>
following orders:  Go forth and buy!  Spices, vegetables, good<BR>
meat, and anything else that we can eat that's gonna taste good<BR>
when we hit j-space again in about 72 hours and isn't contraband<BR>
under the regs.  <BR>
<BR>
"You blow that 12 hours and you're history cause we're likely to<BR>
lift after 12:01 hours and you'll be worse than AWOL and when I<BR>
catch you -- and catch you I will -- I'll bust you both back<BR>
down to Private so fast it'll make your heads swim -- and wipe<BR>
that smirk off your face Ho just because you're already only a<BR>
Private.  <BR>
<BR>
"Now go study those maps and come back to me with your plan of<BR>
attack and equipment requisition in one hour!"<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.<BR>
http://im.yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 17:03:40 -0800<BR>
From: "Luther Martin" <martin@ksarul.com><BR>
Subject: Landgrab: Esalin<BR>
<BR>
To make sure that I don't go too far astray from GT, I would greatly<BR>
appreciate it if someone would e-mail me the blurb about Esalin from BtC off<BR>
list.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 18:03:00 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
Subject: A few more map updates<BR>
<BR>
I haven't cleaned up the html files (they're pretty ugly) but I've updated<BR>
a few things:<BR>
<BR>
First of all, all the files are in http://www.geocities.com/ac_jackson/trav/<BR>
Until I clean up the html, just browse the directory.<BR>
<BR>
The route algorithm got a bit smarter, so mains.gif is a bit less tangled.<BR>
<BR>
I added a page which overlays sector names on the mains map.  That's named.html<BR>
<BR>
The list of J-1 clusters got fixed; it shows clusters of worlds which can all<BR>
be reached at J-1 from one another.  That's clusters.gif<BR>
<BR>
I added a trade map of the solomani sphere -- sol.gif, or sol.html if you want<BR>
sector names overlayed.<BR>
<BR>
The source for my mapper is in jroute.txt.  It's a C source file.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 17:08:29 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Grav Powered Floating Cities<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>>So, true, the negative matter moves towards the planet, but the planet<BR>
>>moves *away* from the negative matter...<BR>
><BR>
> I'm not going to comment on the theory, since I'm far from qualified.<BR>
><BR>
> But if we're using this as an explanation of thruser plates,<BR>
<BR>
We aren't, as this method has some "interesting" side effects *other*<BR>
than what you've thought of.<BR>
<BR>
> isn't the<BR>
> amount of negative mass required to generate 6G going to cause hideous tidal<BR>
> effects? And unavoidably so, since the very repulsive forces which are<BR>
> propelling the ship will be causing these?<BR>
<BR>
It depends on how *dense* the negamass is.<BR>
<BR>
BTW, you *don't* want to come into "physical contact" with negamatter.<BR>
Under the right conditions, negative mass and positive mass will<BR>
combine to produce *nothing*... <BR>
<BR>
"Oops. "<BR>
"I hope you didn't need that hand..."<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 23:02:52 -0500<BR>
From: "DaveShayne" <daveshayne@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2226<BR>
<BR>
>Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 15:58:24 -0500<BR>
>From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net><BR>
>Subject: RE: Crossing Worlds<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<snip><BR>
<BR>
>> The published S3 was an adaptation for AD&D and intended to<BR>
>> bolster interest in a new edition of MA and Gamma World.<BR>
><BR>
>That would have been tough. Metamorphosis Alpha was already out of print by<BR>
>1980. Gamma World, 1st edition, was already 2 years old by that point, and<BR>
>the second edition wouldn't be out for another three years.<BR>
<BR>
I was actually paraphrasing a later paragraph of the preface. Come<BR>
to think of it I don't recall a 2nd edition MA so they may have shelved<BR>
that plan.<BR>
<BR>
>Truthfully, it doesn't really matter to me beyond the fact that I thought I<BR>
>could be helpful to someone who seemed to have questions as to what the<BR>
>relation between the products was.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Same here.<BR>
<BR>
And since I've lost the thread. The place for Gamma World is somewhere<BR>
in the wilds in TNE. TTL 15 is a good fit for GW technology. And the<BR>
mutations etc. are almost explainable as weird effects of Black War<BR>
weapons. And of course lots of the robots are infected with virus.<BR>
YMMV.<BR>
<BR>
Dave Shayne<BR>
<BR>
"Now the workers have struck for fame<BR>
    cuz Lennon's on sale again." - David Bowie<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 22:55:46 -0500<BR>
From: "Terry Carlino" <carlino@home.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Stellar Data question...<BR>
<BR>
> people staying in space aboard a TL 6-7 orbital platform ("Mir") for<BR>
>> periods of over a year. I see no problem supporting that many people<BR>
>> for an extended period, especially with extra-system support. The<BR>
>> general tech level may be TL 7, but given half-a-chance I would bet<BR>
>> the life-support systems would be as advanced as the system could<BR>
>> afford (TL 10-11 at least).<BR>
><BR>
>I beg to differ. Life support is the *last* thing that you want to be<BR>
>dependent of offworld support for.<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
For a world on a main in a high pop sector such a world might be only a week<BR>
from a number of sources of TL10 items. Compare it to living anywhere on<BR>
Earth now. A small town in the Midwest might be TL5 as far as local<BR>
manufacture and the majority of local technology, but people's homes all<BR>
have a TL7 computer, CD player or HDTV, all of which are made somewhere else<BR>
and shipped into said town, from  places sometimes farther away (in time<BR>
traveled) than a few parsecs.<BR>
<BR>
Now on the frontiers it might be a different story. I'm talking about the<BR>
Core or Rim. I would expect that things like life support, computers,<BR>
starship maintenance will all be at least at Imperial norm (which I believe<BR>
is at GTL10).<BR>
<BR>
Terry C<BR>
All that is Gold does not glitter<BR>
Not all who travel are lost<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2228<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2229</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
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Traveller-digest      Saturday, April 1 2000      Volume 1999 : Number 2229<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
New Madrid Fault<BR>
Re: Pixie<BR>
Re: Jumpstart locations<BR>
Re: RS<BR>
T5 Announcement<BR>
Re: T5 Announcement<BR>
RE: FS Grav Tower<BR>
Re: can "habitable" worlds exist around M-V stars?<BR>
RE: Re D&D Known World & S3<BR>
RE: T5 Announcement<BR>
Re: T5 Announcement<BR>
Re: Traveller 3D maps and Computers at the game table<BR>
Re: Traveller 3D maps and Computers at the game table<BR>
Stories in the printed copy of New Scientist which relate to Traveller<BR>
Plastic Skins to Protect from Solar Flares<BR>
Trading in Danger<BR>
Re: T5 Announcement<BR>
Fat Trader data for Milieu 0<BR>
Re: T5 Announcement<BR>
Re: Stories in the printed copy of New Scientist which relate to Traveller<BR>
Re: Plastic Skins to Protect from Solar Flares<BR>
RE: Re D&D Known World & S3<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 23:01:36 EST<BR>
From: Damage169@cs.com<BR>
Subject: New Madrid Fault<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 3/31/00 10:34:46 AM Central Standard Time, <BR>
owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
> Well, you are right, the New Madrid fault kinda sticks out. And, it _is_<BR>
>  known, having been the site of the largest recorded earthquake (largest is<BR>
>  in retrospect, looking at what shifted) IIRC, it was in 1830. Some<BR>
>  TEOTWAWKI loon was predicting The Big One there last summer. <BR>
>  <BR>
>  Biut the New Madrid fault doesn't affect Des Moines, or Madison WI, or<BR>
>  Oklahoma City...and they don't even get many tornadoes or floods in<BR>
>  Madison...<BR>
>  <BR>
Unfortunately incorrect. When the New Madrid (pronounced MADrid) Fault last <BR>
let loose, it was recorded to have rung churchbells as far away as <BR>
Pittsburgh, caused minor structural damage in Lexington and Nashville, broke <BR>
dishes in Chicago and caused the Mississippi, Missouri and Ohio rivers to run <BR>
in reverse. Floods were recorded as far upriver as Cincinnati, and the fault <BR>
lies in the toe part (for some reason called the bootheel) of Missouri. There <BR>
is a truly horrid fiction book recently published that went into extremely <BR>
melodramatic detail over what might happen if the fault let go again with the <BR>
same severity. I think it may have originally been an attempt at a <BR>
movie-of-the-week screenplay.<BR>
<BR>
Doug G.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 23:16:39 EST<BR>
From: Damage169@cs.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Pixie<BR>
<BR>
Ian Ferguson writes:<BR>
<BR>
>  Peter Trevor writes:<BR>
>  <snipped><BR>
>  >To illustrate: (IIRC) Pixie/Regina has practically no  population<BR>
>  >but is TL15 with a class A  starport.  How can this be?  The  low<BR>
>  >UPP factor was described (I forget where) as a handful of  miners<BR>
>  >roaming over Pixie's surface scratching out  a  living.  However,<BR>
>  >Pixie is also the  location  of  a  major  shipbuilding  facility<BR>
>  >producing L-Hyd drop tanks.  The factory workers were contractors<BR>
>  >or on 6 month rotation (etc) and thus classified as transient ...<BR>
>  >and thus not counted in Pixie's UPP.  (Shipyard facility on Pixie<BR>
>  >is referred to in one of the pre-5FW TNS stories.)<BR>
>  <BR>
>   Pixie is one of those worlds that gets Traveller GMs thinking<BR>
>   up stories.  IIRC it is TL 13 in 1105, with a Pop 0 (up to 90),<BR>
>   Starport A, and an Imperial Naval Base (is there an IWS there<BR>
>   as well?).  I put about 90% of the residents at the starport,<BR>
>   with a lot of robotic assistants.  Although technically a class<BR>
>   A starport, only very small starships can be manufactured and<BR>
>   civilian repair facilities can only handle one vessel at a time.<BR>
>   The civilian starport is really just an add-on to the naval<BR>
>   base, and nearly all residents work there.  The personnel in<BR>
>   the naval base do not count towards the population.<BR>
>  <BR>
>  Peez<BR>
>  <BR>
Travellers' Digest issue #21 (Final Issue) covers Pixie in fair detail as it <BR>
is the finale adventure of the Grand Tour Campaign. The Naval base was <BR>
apparently set up as a watchstation/resupply depot during the 5FW and was <BR>
also used to support the scientific team as they researched an Ancient site <BR>
of the planet. Further details by request.<BR>
<BR>
Doug G.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 23:31:40 EST<BR>
From: Damage169@cs.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Jumpstart locations<BR>
<BR>
Pat Connaughton writes:<BR>
<BR>
> In the same vein, what about hyper-loyal imperials<BR>
>  who'd play Twilight 2000 for the "greater glory of the<BR>
>  Emperium (sic)" and be also stored away with the<BR>
>  other supplies at the "jumpstart site"<BR>
<BR>
I believe you mean they'd be willing to play "Morrow Project," an RPG <BR>
designed around precisely this type of situation (jumpstart after fall of <BR>
civilization). <BR>
<BR>
Doug G.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2000 00:01:40 EST<BR>
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: RS<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 00-03-31 11:35:41 EST, you write:<BR>
<BR>
<< You are, of course correct. The situation is just SO frustrating however...<BR>
  >><BR>
<BR>
Has anyone contacted the man lately? made him an offer? done anything besides <BR>
curse the darkness?<BR>
<BR>
LKW<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2000 00:22:59 -0500<BR>
From: "Sword-Worlder" <swordworlder@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: T5 Announcement<BR>
<BR>
http://www.downport.com/news/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2000 00:34:03 EST<BR>
From: JFZeigler@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: T5 Announcement<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 4/1/00 12:32:07 AM Eastern Standard Time, <BR>
swordworlder@yahoo.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
> http://www.downport.com/news/index.html<BR>
<BR>
Very funny.  I think.<BR>
<BR>
- ----------<BR>
Jon F. Zeigler: Mathematician, computer geek, amateur historian, freelance<BR>
writer, occasional scribbler of bad poetry<BR>
"For any statement, no matter how innocuous, there exists a nonempty<BR>
set of people who will take offense at it."<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 21:36:11 -0800<BR>
From: Jesse DeGraff <jdegraff@pacbell.net><BR>
Subject: RE: FS Grav Tower<BR>
<BR>
LOL!!!  Like I have time for condos at the moment ;)<BR>
<BR>
Jesse<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
[mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Katharine<BR>
Whitchurch<BR>
Sent: Wednesday, March 29, 2000 11:37 PM<BR>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Subject: Re: FS Grav Tower<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
> Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 17:38:17 -0600<BR>
> From: Stormhound <stormhnd@fidnet.com><BR>
> Subject: Re: First cut of a grav building<BR>
><BR>
> Katharine Whitchurch wrote:<BR>
><BR>
> > This is the first cut of the Famile Spofulam Grav Tower. It is built at<BR>
TL9,<BR>
> > for the Export Market.<BR>
><BR>
>     I knew we could count on ya. (g)<BR>
><BR>
> > 200 Large Staterooms 11200 m3, 800t, MCr 10 (?? should be lower, as<BR>
these<BR>
> > dont have to be built to space standards - no iris valves etc. With 3m<BR>
> > ceilings, this puts about 15 layers of rooms in the building. Thus with<BR>
4<BR>
> > rooms on each side, everybody gets a view)<BR>
><BR>
>     Don't *have* to be is the key.  You still could, particularly for use<BR>
in<BR>
> atmospheres with problems...so that one nut cracking a window wouldn't<BR>
wipe out<BR>
> the whole place.<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
True. You'd want to actually add life support in those cases too.<BR>
<BR>
> > moving the building at a stately 350 km per hour).<BR>
><BR>
>     ROFL...only FS would refer to that as "stately".  Actually, would any<BR>
sort<BR>
> of compensators be required for the horizontal vector?  I'd hate to be in<BR>
the<BR>
> place if it tipped over...(g)<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
True. Note that there is actually redundancy in most of the systems (battery<BR>
pack to back up the fission plant, 2 computers etc). Unusual for FS, huh ...<BR>
<BR>
> > The views will be, frankly, spectacular.<BR>
><BR>
>     Especially at flank speed. (g)  I like!  And if you set up the<BR>
dwellings on<BR>
> a mortgage basis, it'd be easily affordable.  Let's hear it for the FS<BR>
> Grav-Condo! (g)<BR>
<BR>
Thank you. It isn't really finished (it needs lifts and toilets and stuff<BR>
like that), but it's close enough for a GM to say "The hotel you're booked<BR>
into looks like *this*", and holds up Jesse's drawing of the Grav Tower<BR>
(*hint*).<BR>
<BR>
Ian Whitchurch<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2000 18:11:49 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: can "habitable" worlds exist around M-V stars?<BR>
<BR>
On 31 Mar 00, at 10:41, Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> In mail you write:<BR>
> <BR>
> > Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
> >>Yes, a "TL 1" vacc suit is stretching things a lot.<BR>
> ><BR>
> > I have this vision of a guy in a suit made of several layers of skins,<BR>
> > treated with some kind of wax, with a helmet carved out of some kind of<BR>
> > crystal. Running out the back, a pair of hoses made from similar<BR>
> > materials to the suit, meticulously assembled and sealed.<BR>
> <BR>
> Actually, I expect it to be linen canvas, sealed by treating with<BR>
> linseed oil or the like (which upon exposure to UV polymerizes, giving one<BR>
> of the first plastics!).<BR>
<BR>
And once you know how glass should be doable at TL1. However large <BR>
sheets aren't, so the helemt would have a composite "window" like a <BR>
stained glass church window.<BR>
 <BR>
> > The hoses<BR>
> > run back to a cave, where there's an airlock made by rolling big flat<BR>
> > rocks on goop-sealed tracks to block tunnel sections. A couple of<BR>
> > apprentices push bellows up and down, pumping air out to the "vacc<BR>
> > suit", and another set with bellows pump air in and out of the "air<BR>
> > lock" as needed. The outer airlock door is cunningly designed to use<BR>
> > gravity assist for opening and closing, as they can never get all the<BR>
> > air out of the airlock.<BR>
> ><BR>
> > They would die at the first natural disaster, but maybe they got lucky.<BR>
> <BR>
> Keep in mind that TL 1 *starts* with the bronze age and extends thru<BR>
> the middle ages (up to 1400 according to the Traveller Book). <BR>
> <BR>
> And they had things like *concrete* back then. Which will leak only<BR>
> slowly, if at all, depending on additives. Metal sheathed wooden doors are<BR>
> within their ability. As is production of large mirrors to concentrate<BR>
> sunlight.<BR>
<BR>
Air tight metal helmets should be, too.<BR>
<BR>
> I'm not sure it it's practical to build a glass dome by melting the<BR>
> materials onto a form. But it might be. In which case, you have gardens<BR>
> under glass...<BR>
> <BR>
> Hmmmm...<BR>
> <BR>
> Now that I think about it, in low G, you could melt a big pool of<BR>
> glass, then "blow" it into a dome. Maybe. Probably easier to use the<BR>
> mirrors to fuse chunks of quartz together to make a dome.<BR>
<BR>
IMO large scale glass blowing and the creation of large glass panes are <BR>
probably TL2 technologies. Buildings had composite or stained glass <BR>
windows for a reason.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
An pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2000 01:28:31 -0500<BR>
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net><BR>
Subject: RE: Re D&D Known World & S3<BR>
<BR>
> many of the monocrome copies of the tournament module were apparently made<BR>
> available.<BR>
><BR>
> I've seen 3 with 1976 copyrights float through stores up here. I first<BR>
played S3 in 79.<BR>
> from a black and white only module.<BR>
<BR>
Really? Boy, would I love to get my hands on one of them. However, I hope I<BR>
won't offend when I say that I'm somewhat dubious of the existence of such a<BR>
beast. The monochrome / pastel modules appeared around 1977 or 1978 if I<BR>
recall correctly, making a copyright date of 1976 improbable. Was it<BR>
numbered as S3? S1 was '78, and I'm reasonably sure S2 was '79. At any rate,<BR>
if you ever get a line on another copy, please drop me a line. I'd be very<BR>
interested in verifying its existence and probably purchasing it, as it<BR>
would be a fine jewel in my collection. It was never on any TSR product<BR>
list, and I have yet to see it listed on any pricing lists.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2000 01:31:05 -0500<BR>
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net><BR>
Subject: RE: T5 Announcement<BR>
<BR>
You are a cruel bastard. I just wanted you to know that. :)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 23:50:03 -0800<BR>
From: Kristian Miller <travellerne@3rd-imperium.com><BR>
Subject: Re: T5 Announcement<BR>
<BR>
Sword-Worlder wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> http://www.downport.com/news/index.html<BR>
<BR>
Wow! That's great news...check it out!<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 01 Apr 2000 09:50:59 +0200<BR>
From: Ingo Heinscher <Hiroshi.Estigarribia@gmx.de><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller 3D maps and Computers at the game table<BR>
<BR>
At 15:00 31.03.00 PST, Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>> Well, on this, the movement of stars is relatively irrelevant. Most<BR>
>> campaigns don't last centuries of game time, and still, speaking in<BR>
>> interstellar dimensions, there is not much change to the astronomical<BR>
>> coordinates of stars relative to each other, even over the centuries.<BR>
><BR>
>Well, I think we've determined that given the 2-3 millenia that is<BR>
>"history" for the OTU, there *are* a few stars that will be in a<BR>
>different hex than they occupy "now". <BR>
><BR>
>Not many, but it *is* something that would need to be checked when<BR>
>working from *old* maps/surveys.<BR>
<BR>
Though this would be an exception in any campaign, I'd say. Something the<BR>
GM should do as he/she sees fit.<BR>
- -- <BR>
"This was not meant to be an aggresssion against the Siru Zirka. But we had<BR>
to organize our affairs a bit more efficiently. To be honest, we have had<BR>
to do this for almost 300 years by now."<BR>
unknown Terran politician, -2398 Imp<BR>
;-) ingo heinscher <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 01 Apr 2000 09:39:37 +0200<BR>
From: Ingo Heinscher <Hiroshi.Estigarribia@gmx.de><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller 3D maps and Computers at the game table<BR>
<BR>
At 14:57 31.03.00 PST, Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
<BR>
[snip]<BR>
>>>> One *advantage* of this is that it makes the prevalence of<BR>
>>>> "unihabitable" planets more tolerable. It also makes it easier to<BR>
>>>> explain how "splinter cultures" were able to escape and be left alone.<BR>
>><BR>
>> Are you referring to any splinter society I should know?<BR>
><BR>
>Not in particular. Just the "classic" idea of some group going off to<BR>
>be left alone and actually *managing* it, which is next to impossible<BR>
>in the OTU.<BR>
<BR>
Well, in the 3I, that is true. But what about the other empires at the edge<BR>
of Charted Space. The K#Kree have seen some civilisations flee from their<BR>
space(as GTAR2 sais), and it is easily imagineable for the Solomani, the<BR>
Aslna, even the Hivers and Zhodani. Let alone the Vargr...<BR>
<BR>
>>>> They can wilderness refuel a few times and be lost among *hundreds* of<BR>
>>>> worlds at that distance from the homeworld. And it'll be a long time<BR>
>>>> before governmental "explore all the worlds as you go" type exploration<BR>
>>>> reaches them.<BR>
>><BR>
>> But you have a problem with the Imperium being ridiculouly small, compared<BR>
>> to the OTU and considering travel times. It changes more than just a major<BR>
>> detail... I mean, any message would need merely eight weeks to get<BR>
>> anywhere. The economic advantage of higher jump numbers in 3D is<BR>
>> considerable. There would not be much left of the OTU. You would have to do<BR>
>> a lot of work on your own...<BR>
><BR>
>The OTU and 3D mapping *aren't* compatible. <BR>
<BR>
On this we aggree completely. That is why I prefer to *explain* the 2D maps<BR>
of the OTU with jump space theory... you know, the "crumpled table cloth"...<BR>
<BR>
>Then again, I'm far more<BR>
>comfortable taking the rules, and technology, and generating my own<BR>
>background... <BR>
<BR>
Which is a lot of work to do. I like my own universes, too, but when it<BR>
comes to more background material, I prefer to use the work of someone else<BR>
who has had more time and expertise for it. <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
"This was not meant to be an aggresssion against the Siru Zirka. But we had<BR>
to organize our affairs a bit more efficiently. To be honest, we have had<BR>
to do this for almost 300 years by now."<BR>
unknown Terran politician, -2398 Imp<BR>
;-) ingo heinscher <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2000 09:10:54 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Stories in the printed copy of New Scientist which relate to Traveller<BR>
<BR>
There are two stories in the printed (not web version of New <BR>
Scientist) 1 April Issue (they don't look like spoofs....) which may <BR>
be of interest:<BR>
<BR>
Space Band Aid - describes a polycarbonate and epoxy solution for for <BR>
plugging holes up to 10 cm in diameter in the International Space <BR>
Station hull. This is for repairs from micrometeorite hits.<BR>
<BR>
ObTrav - low tech space station and ship repairs.<BR>
<BR>
The Drifters - a report on the discovery of 25 free floating planets <BR>
between the stars by the University of Herfordshire and Oxford <BR>
University.  They actually found 150 brown dwarfs as well. The find <BR>
was done using the UK infrared telescope on Mauna Kea and they were <BR>
looking around the Orion nebula.<BR>
<BR>
ObTrav: many people dispute the ability to perform deep space jumps, <BR>
even  though it is in canon. It's a perennial TML thread. The <BR>
discovery of large (?) numbers of brown dwarfs and planets free of <BR>
stellar influence between systems allows you to perform deep space <BR>
jumps even if you decide to use the mass/tidal limit argument for <BR>
jump operations.<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2000 09:00:30 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Plastic Skins to Protect from Solar Flares<BR>
<BR>
New Scientist has an article on how to protect ships from solar <BR>
storms by equalising charge around the hull.<BR>
<BR>
http://www.newscientist.com/news/news_223243.html<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Plastic skin keeps satellites safe<BR>
<BR>
A POLYMER coating that conducts electricity has been developed by <BR>
Canadian scientists to help satellites weather solar storms. <BR>
Satellites are usually blanketed with insulation to protect them <BR>
against heat and light damage. But this non-conducting blanket also <BR>
allows electrostatic charge from particles streaming from the Sun to <BR>
build up on the satellite's skin, leading to arcing that can destroy <BR>
the craft's circuitry. Arcing has been blamed for the loss of two <BR>
Canadian Anik satellites in 1994 and 1996.<BR>
<BR>
To prevent this, Rui Resendes, Ian Manners and their colleagues at <BR>
the University of Toronto have developed a polymer called a <BR>
polyferrocene which has iron atoms bound into its molecular <BR>
structure. This makes it electrically conducting. The polymer allows <BR>
the charge to equalise around  the surface of the satellite.<BR>
<BR>
  "This is certainly a valid approach. Ultimately it will come down to <BR>
cost,"  says Alan Tribble, an aerospace engineer with Rockwell <BR>
Collins in Cedar Rapids, Iowa.<BR>
<BR>
Kurt Kleiner<BR>
 From New Scientist magazine, 01 April 2000.<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2000 18:49:25 +1000<BR>
From: "Katharine Whitchurch" <katts@globalfreeway.com.au><BR>
Subject: Trading in Danger<BR>
<BR>
This is a collection of random thoughts, triggered by the amount of thinking<BR>
I've been doing about the fringe of the Imperial fringe.<BR>
<BR>
If trading with the fringes of systems is generally unsafe, and if trading<BR>
with frontier worlds in District 268 and Five Sisters is generally unsafe,<BR>
then trading with belters and such on the fringes of frontier worlds in<BR>
District 268 and Five Sisters must be damn well suicidal.<BR>
<BR>
On the other hand, if people wont trade with belters and such on the fringes<BR>
of these systems, then those mineral deposits are going to go un-exploited.<BR>
<BR>
The solution is to pay risk premiums. The basic amount is Cr 650 per dton of<BR>
freight to go to an unsafe point in a system (the same as an Amber Zone).<BR>
Add to this the modifier for a Frontier world, which should be worth an<BR>
additional 20% or so, and we potentially have a pay rate of about about Cr<BR>
1500 for a 1 parsec trip or about Cr 2150 for a 2 parsec trip.<BR>
<BR>
This does radical things to the economics of Free Traders.<BR>
<BR>
The bad news is that you are entirely on your own if something bad happens.<BR>
<BR>
This makes the Freight Scam something traders have to worry about - a cargo<BR>
broker hires a Free Trader to resupply some worldlet, and tips off a pirate<BR>
group. Scratch one Free Trader.<BR>
<BR>
Likewise, "fringers" have to worry about Free Traders who take what they<BR>
want at gunpoint, or who lead others to their camp.<BR>
<BR>
There is no single solution to the fact that neither party can really afford<BR>
to trust the other.<BR>
<BR>
Partial solutions include extra fuel tankage, to allow a quick getaway by a<BR>
trader, and heavier armament on both sides (more than one mining camp has a<BR>
fusion gun from an MBT hidden somewhere in the hills, and living underground<BR>
isnt just to make it easier to maintain life support).<BR>
<BR>
Mining companies often maintain their own ships, and do resupply with them,<BR>
or traders may buy a claim site off a prospector, and then ship in miners<BR>
and gear to it.<BR>
<BR>
If the mining camp is on a planet or moon, rather than an asteroid, then the<BR>
trade site may be some distance from the actual colony site. This means that<BR>
even if the trade site is compromised, the main facility stays intact. The<BR>
trading facility may even be an in-system craft, which goes from the<BR>
rendezvous point to the mining site once prying eyes have left sensor range.<BR>
<BR>
A sufficiently rich mining facility may have planetary-scale defenses, but<BR>
in this case it's more of a second mainworld.<BR>
<BR>
Traders may protect themselves by not alerting anyone to an impending trip<BR>
to the fringe - just load up with goods bought on spec and go.<BR>
<BR>
I would suggest in the sort of prices the Trader can get in this case<BR>
depends on exactly how badly the Belters need whatever the Trader has<BR>
brought - if they are low on food, or spare parts, or luxuries, then they<BR>
will probably pay whatever they can, but if they just stocked up last week<BR>
and have little in the storage bins for export, then it was probably a<BR>
wasted trip.<BR>
<BR>
A better solution is for a intermediary trusted by both sides to arrange the<BR>
rendezvous, keep the accounts and split the profits. This way, both parties<BR>
have some assurance that they wont get burned, and both parties have a fair<BR>
crack at the profits from the enterprise.<BR>
<BR>
Ian Whitchurch<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2000 02:11:11 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: john hamilton <johnhamilton_us@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: T5 Announcement<BR>
<BR>
- --- Sword-Worlder <swordworlder@yahoo.com> wrote:<BR>
> http://www.downport.com/news/index.html<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Does that mean T5 is a fools idea, anyway? <BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.<BR>
http://im.yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2000 11:38:25 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Fat Trader data for Milieu 0<BR>
<BR>
Hi all,<BR>
<BR>
I was wondering if anyone had produced Far Trader based calculations <BR>
for trade for Milieu 0, beyond the information by Thad Coons on the <BR>
BITS website.<BR>
<BR>
Specifically, I'm looking for data for the top half of Core, <BR>
Dagudashaag, Vland and the rimward/spinward portions of Lishun. The <BR>
reason - I'm working on some scenarios for CORE/BITS which this <BR>
information could be useful for. (Basically, it saves me generating <BR>
it ;-) )<BR>
<BR>
Alternatively - Does anyone know of any spreadsheets etc that <BR>
generate this data? Preferably Mac (or at a push NT4 compatible)?<BR>
<BR>
Finally, if Chris, Bloo or Jim are reading this - do you believe it <BR>
will model fragmented pocket empires etc in the state that M0 is in, <BR>
or the will the system struggle with the number of Barrens etc? I <BR>
suppose what I am asking is - is the system built specifically to <BR>
deal with the economics of a mature trade economy like the Imperium's <BR>
or the heart of the Sylean Federation? Will it be thrown by impacts <BR>
of the wars and piracy common in M0? I assume such an impact would <BR>
not be modelled by the system and that you would have to manually <BR>
reduce trade volumes  and cascade the differences back.<BR>
<BR>
DOm<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 01 Apr 2000 06:52:28 -0500<BR>
From: "Josh W. Spencer" <macmanjws@earthlink.net><BR>
Subject: Re: T5 Announcement<BR>
<BR>
john hamilton wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> Does that mean T5 is a fools idea, anyway?<BR>
<BR>
I took one look at this and thought, "I PITY THE FOOL!" <-- Salute to Mr. T.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Josh W. Spencer (macmanjws@earthlink.net)<BR>
VILANI ALIAS: Iashir Rekiinikimas Uiagam<BR>
Ypsilanti, Michigan, North America, Terra<BR>
Sol Subsector, Solomani Rim Sector<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 01 Apr 2000 07:01:03 -0500<BR>
From: "Josh W. Spencer" <macmanjws@earthlink.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Stories in the printed copy of New Scientist which relate to Traveller<BR>
<BR>
SD Mooney wrote:<BR>
><BR>
> There are two stories in the printed (not web version of New<BR>
> Scientist) 1 April Issue (they don't look like spoofs....) which may<BR>
> be of interest:<BR>
At least I don't pity the fool on these! :) :)<BR>
> <BR>
> Space Band Aid - describes a polycarbonate and epoxy solution for for<BR>
> plugging holes up to 10 cm in diameter in the International Space<BR>
> Station hull. This is for repairs from micrometeorite hits.<BR>
> <BR>
> ObTrav - low tech space station and ship repairs.<BR>
ObTrav #2 - And I think this is a TL 8 compound for same.<BR>
> <BR>
> The Drifters - a report on the discovery of 25 free floating planets<BR>
> between the stars by the University of Herfordshire and Oxford<BR>
> University.  They actually found 150 brown dwarfs as well. The find<BR>
> was done using the UK infrared telescope on Mauna Kea and they were<BR>
> looking around the Orion nebula.<BR>
> <BR>
> ObTrav: many people dispute the ability to perform deep space jumps,<BR>
> even  though it is in canon. It's a perennial TML thread. The<BR>
> discovery of large (?) numbers of brown dwarfs and planets free of<BR>
> stellar influence between systems allows you to perform deep space<BR>
> jumps even if you decide to use the mass/tidal limit argument for<BR>
> jump operations.<BR>
ObTrav #2: It also seems that if you have brown dwarfs roaming the universe<BR>
inbetween established stellar systems, not only are they good for jump ops<BR>
but they're also another hydrogen source, especially if you can scoop it!<BR>
It's also logical to assume that the Imperial Navy will want to control the<BR>
critical BD's which lie along same jump lines....the ones the civilians<BR>
wouldn't necessarily know about.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Josh W. Spencer (macmanjws@earthlink.net)<BR>
VILANI ALIAS: Iashir Rekiinikimas Uiagam<BR>
Ypsilanti, Michigan, North America, Terra<BR>
Sol Subsector, Solomani Rim Sector<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 01 Apr 2000 07:03:51 -0500<BR>
From: "Josh W. Spencer" <macmanjws@earthlink.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Plastic Skins to Protect from Solar Flares<BR>
<BR>
SD Mooney wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> New Scientist has an article on how to protect ships from solar<BR>
> storms by equalising charge around the hull.<BR>
> <BR>
> http://www.newscientist.com/news/news_223243.html<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> Plastic skin keeps satellites safe<BR>
> <BR>
> A POLYMER coating that conducts electricity has been developed by<BR>
> Canadian scientists to help satellites weather solar storms.<BR>
> Satellites are usually blanketed with insulation to protect them<BR>
> against heat and light damage. But this non-conducting blanket also<BR>
> allows electrostatic charge from particles streaming from the Sun to<BR>
> build up on the satellite's skin, leading to arcing that can destroy<BR>
> the craft's circuitry. Arcing has been blamed for the loss of two<BR>
> Canadian Anik satellites in 1994 and 1996.<BR>
> <BR>
> To prevent this, Rui Resendes, Ian Manners and their colleagues at<BR>
> the University of Toronto have developed a polymer called a<BR>
> polyferrocene which has iron atoms bound into its molecular<BR>
> structure. This makes it electrically conducting. The polymer allows<BR>
> the charge to equalise around  the surface of the satellite.<BR>
<BR>
ObTrav: This polymer coating technique is impossible at TL 7, expensive at<BR>
TL 8 and routine at TL 9 and up.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Josh W. Spencer (macmanjws@earthlink.net)<BR>
VILANI ALIAS: Iashir Rekiinikimas Uiagam<BR>
Ypsilanti, Michigan, North America, Terra<BR>
Sol Subsector, Solomani Rim Sector<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2000 00:10:04 +1200<BR>
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: Re D&D Known World & S3<BR>
<BR>
> On Behalf Of Chris Seamans<BR>
><BR>
> > many of the monocrome copies of the tournament module were<BR>
> > apparently made available.<BR>
> ><BR>
> > I've seen 3 with 1976 copyrights float through stores up here. I first<BR>
> > played S3 in 79 from a black and white only module.<BR>
><BR>
> Really? Boy, would I love to get my hands on one of them.<BR>
> However, I hope I  won't offend when I say that I'm somewhat<BR>
> dubious of the  existence of such a<BR>
> beast. The monochrome / pastel modules appeared around 1977 or 1978 if I<BR>
> recall correctly, making a copyright date of 1976 improbable. Was it<BR>
> numbered as S3?<BR>
<BR>
You'll note I explicitly said "monochrome" and not pastel, as it was<BR>
basically a black and white photocopy or Getstener copy of the Origins II<BR>
game.<BR>
From memory it was not labelled "S3"<BR>
<BR>
> S1 was '78, and I'm reasonably sure S2 was '79.<BR>
<BR>
The pastels of S1 and S2 are definitely '78 & '79 respectively (I have<BR>
copies), there is a 1980 colour version of S1 as well.<BR>
<BR>
There is a lot of stuff like this out there, including such things as the<BR>
original "photocopied" (or at least extremely poorly printed) version of<BR>
Tunnells & Trolls, )  and things like the "first" Games Workshop D&D module,<BR>
again a low print run, either photocopied or Gestetnered, thing.<BR>
<BR>
If you're into the roots of the hobby there are things like the _English_<BR>
Steve Jackson's "Old West Skirmish Wargames Rules" from about 1974 which<BR>
encouraged players to personalize their "characters" and act out the<BR>
gunfights and challenges between their cowboys and indians, and introduced<BR>
what I believe are the first published rules for simulating bar room brawls.<BR>
<BR>
Unfortunately, according to the mail I received back in 1975 from someone<BR>
claiming to be his father, the English Steve Jackson died in a motorcycle<BR>
accident just before then, and his games died with him.<BR>
<BR>
Of course, that could have been a cover story, as about that time this guy<BR>
called Steve Jackson appeared in the US with a game called Ogre...<BR>
<BR>
I've been scanning my copy so that it will be preserved for posterity, but<BR>
it was never a very good printing, most things from those days were printed<BR>
at home using hand cranked Gestetners or copied on primitive photocopiers<BR>
after being typed by hamd, with overall print runs in the hundreds or less.<BR>
<BR>
Frankie<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2229<BR>
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Traveller-digest      Saturday, April 1 2000      Volume 1999 : Number 2230<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re Jonkereen<BR>
Re : Draft thoughts on Ochetate<BR>
April fool at Downport<BR>
RE: Re D&D Known World & S3<BR>
Re: New Madrid Fault<BR>
Re RS<BR>
Re: S3<BR>
Re: Evidence of a free Press in the Third Imperium <BR>
Re: The Beyond<BR>
Re: The Beyond<BR>
Re: The Beyond<BR>
Re: Landgrab: Esalin<BR>
Re: Plastic Skins to Protect from Solar Flares<BR>
Re: Landgrab: Esalin<BR>
Re: Trading in Danger<BR>
Re: Crossing Worlds<BR>
Re: Re D&D Known World & S3<BR>
Re: Trading in Danger<BR>
Re: Re Gut Grenades<BR>
Re: T5 Announcement<BR>
Re: New Madrid Fault<BR>
Re: New Madrid Fault<BR>
Re: S3<BR>
RE: Re D&D Known World & S3<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2000 03:39:13 -0900<BR>
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re Jonkereen<BR>
<BR>
>>From: "James W. Lindsay" <jlindsay@home.com><BR>
><BR>
>>According to BtC, Quopist is the home of both humans and the<BR>
>>"Jonkeereen"-- an unknown race (at least there's no write-up in<BR>
><BR>
>>BtC that I can find).  The races are divided approximately<BR>
>>47%/53% respectively.<BR>
><BR>
>That sounds vaguely familiar, but I recall the Jonkeereen from<BR>
>much longer ago, like CT or MT era.  I'll see what I can find as<BR>
>I'm going through back issues of Challenge, etc., for<BR>
>information on Mongo.<BR>
><BR>
>- --Glenn<BR>
><BR>
They appeared in MTJ. DOn't recall which of the 4 issues. Human minor race.<BR>
<BR>
William F. Hostman  |  "Smith & Wesson: THe original Point and Click<BR>
interface!"<BR>
Aramis 0602 C55A364-C S kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge-<BR>
533<BR>
aramis@gci.net http://home.gci.net/~aramis Vilani: uilamaanamti sirohbrankilin<BR>
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn- t4-- tt+ to- tg-- ru+ ge 3i+ c+ jt-() au+ st- ls<BR>
pi+() ta+ he+(-) kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge- pi+<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 01 Apr 2000 22:38:20 +1000<BR>
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re : Draft thoughts on Ochetate<BR>
<BR>
Ian Whitchurch wrote :-<BR>
<Hi Ian! Welcome back.><BR>
<BR>
> although if anyone wants to do a full Book 6/WBH/FI writeup of a E747569-7<BR>
> 210 G8V M8D system I'd be grateful (*hint*).<BR>
<BR>
O.K. Let's use FI.<BR>
<BR>
>From 'Behind the Claw' :-<BR>
Diameter 6650 mi/10700 km<BR>
Taint - airborne pathogen : the 'Ochetate flu'<BR>
Climate category : Cool<BR>
Surface hydro 66%<BR>
Class I port, CR 5, GTL 7<BR>
<BR>
* System Data<BR>
System age 6 billion years. <BR>
Main contents 2 stars, 2 rocky worlds, 1 planetoid belt.<BR>
<BR>
Primary : G8 V                     Secondary : M8 V[1]<BR>
Temperature 5500 K                 Temperature 2600 K<BR>
Luminosity  0.57 sols              Luminosity  0.001 sols<BR>
Mass        0.87 sols              Mass        0.063 sols<BR>
Radius      0.0074 AU              Radius      0.0014 AU<BR>
Stable Life 15.24 billion years<BR>
                                  <BR>
Orbital distances, AU              Companion Parameters<BR>
Inner limit 0.174                  Average orbital radius 14 AU<BR>
Inner life  0.717                  Eccentricity 0.6<BR>
Outer life  0.981                  Min/max separation 5.6/22.4 AU<BR>
Snow line   3.77                   Revolution period 56.16 years<BR>
Outer limit 34.8<BR>
<BR>
Worlds :-<BR>
Orbit     Name         Diam|Dens|Grav   Rot    Rev     e    <BR>
0.435   Rockball       5100|5.4|0.63    tl     112.35d 0.05<BR>
0.835   Ochetate       6650|5.1|0.77    28.28h 298.79d 0.02<BR>
1.24    Planetoids[2]<BR>
[14     Companion]<BR>
<BR>
Unitage for the table above :-<BR>
Orbit is in AU<BR>
Diam = diameter in miles<BR>
Dens = average density in g/cc<BR>
Grav = surface gravity in G's<BR>
Rot/Rev = rotation or revolution period in hours (h) or days (d) ; <BR>
tl = tide-locked<BR>
e = orbital eccentricity<BR>
<BR>
* Mainworld Data<BR>
Mass : 0.545 earth<BR>
Apparent day length : 28.39 hours<BR>
Axial Tilt : 16 degrees <BR>
Atmospheric pressure : 0.75 atm<BR>
Atmospheric composition : nitrogen 79%, oxygen 20%, others 1%<BR>
Hydrographics : 66%, water oceans<BR>
Albedo : 0.24<BR>
Greenhouse effect : 0.14<BR>
Average surface temperature (G:Space) : 282 K (Chilly)<BR>
Weather factor : 7 (Earth = 10, so more stable)<BR>
Life : complex animals, max IQ 5 (no primate/cetacean equivalents)<BR>
<BR>
I have not included the various economic and cultural descriptors that<BR>
WBH/FI can generate. Ian, you (especially) don't need a rule book to<BR>
come up with that sort of data.<BR>
<BR>
Notes :-<BR>
[1] There are too many red dwarves in the original star data (and also<BR>
in the Regency Sourcebook, for that matter). <BR>
[2] I don't have WBH handy to generate c/m/r ratios, etc. for the belt.<BR>
<BR>
Robert O'Connor<BR>
Medico, Gamer<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2000 13:41:26 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: April fool at Downport<BR>
<BR>
Hmm. He beat me to it ;-)<BR>
<BR>
I'd been considering one of two spoofs - either that WotC had bought <BR>
the rights to Traveller or that BITS had won the lottery, and bought <BR>
the rights/licence ;-)<BR>
<BR>
I think Colin's is better though....<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2000 13:39:41 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Re D&D Known World & S3<BR>
<BR>
At 7:12 -0500 1/4/00, "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz> wrote:<BR>
>There is a lot of stuff like this out there, including such things as the<BR>
>original "photocopied" (or at least extremely poorly printed) version of<BR>
>Tunnells & Trolls, )  and things like the "first" Games Workshop D&D module,<BR>
>again a low print run, either photocopied or Gestetnered, thing.<BR>
<BR>
I've seen the GW printing of the D&D rules...<BR>
<BR>
>Unfortunately, according to the mail I received back in 1975 from someone<BR>
>claiming to be his father, the English Steve Jackson died in a motorcycle<BR>
>accident just before then, and his games died with him.<BR>
><BR>
>Of course, that could have been a cover story, as about that time this guy<BR>
>called Steve Jackson appeared in the US with a game called Ogre...<BR>
<BR>
And the English Steve Jackson (obviously undead now) founded Games <BR>
Workshop with Ian Livingstone (now at Eidos ie Lara Croft land...). <BR>
And was printing books in 1983 +<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2000 03:51:37 -0900<BR>
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: New Madrid Fault<BR>
<BR>
>> Well, you are right, the New Madrid fault kinda sticks out. And, it _is_<BR>
>>  known, having been the site of the largest recorded earthquake (largest is<BR>
>>  in retrospect, looking at what shifted) IIRC, it was in 1830. Some<BR>
>>  TEOTWAWKI loon was predicting The Big One there last summer.<BR>
<BR>
New Madrid Fault is now being taugh (or was in my Environmental Geo and<BR>
Physical Geography courses in 96) as being a "Concentric Ring", "Sinking<BR>
Ring" or "mass-depression" fault. In short, the concentric rings are<BR>
sinking due to the weight of the plate. There is some geophysical evidence<BR>
to support this. Also explains yellowstone, to some degree.<BR>
<BR>
William F. Hostman  |  "Smith & Wesson: THe original Point and Click<BR>
interface!"<BR>
Aramis 0602 C55A364-C S kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge-<BR>
533<BR>
aramis@gci.net http://home.gci.net/~aramis Vilani: uilamaanamti sirohbrankilin<BR>
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn- t4-- tt+ to- tg-- ru+ ge 3i+ c+ jt-() au+ st- ls<BR>
pi+() ta+ he+(-) kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge- pi+<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2000 03:52:56 -0900<BR>
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re RS<BR>
<BR>
><< You are, of course correct. The situation is just SO frustrating however...<BR>
>  >><BR>
><BR>
>Has anyone contacted the man lately? made him an offer? done anything besides<BR>
>curse the darkness?<BR>
><BR>
>LKW<BR>
<BR>
He keeps changing ISP's and Email accounts. I last heard from him in about '98.<BR>
<BR>
William F. Hostman  |  "Smith & Wesson: THe original Point and Click<BR>
interface!"<BR>
Aramis 0602 C55A364-C S kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge-<BR>
533<BR>
aramis@gci.net http://home.gci.net/~aramis Vilani: uilamaanamti sirohbrankilin<BR>
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn- t4-- tt+ to- tg-- ru+ ge 3i+ c+ jt-() au+ st- ls<BR>
pi+() ta+ he+(-) kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge- pi+<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2000 03:56:52 -0900<BR>
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: S3<BR>
<BR>
>> many of the monocrome copies of the tournament module were apparently made<BR>
>> available.<BR>
>><BR>
>> I've seen 3 with 1976 copyrights float through stores up here. I first<BR>
>played S3 in 79.<BR>
>> from a black and white only module.<BR>
><BR>
>Really? Boy, would I love to get my hands on one of them. However, I hope I<BR>
>won't offend when I say that I'm somewhat dubious of the existence of such a<BR>
>beast. The monochrome / pastel modules appeared around 1977 or 1978 if I<BR>
>recall correctly, making a copyright date of 1976 improbable. Was it<BR>
>numbered as S3? S1 was '78, and I'm reasonably sure S2 was '79. At any rate,<BR>
>if you ever get a line on another copy, please drop me a line. I'd be very<BR>
>interested in verifying its existence and probably purchasing it, as it<BR>
>would be a fine jewel in my collection. It was never on any TSR product<BR>
>list, and I have yet to see it listed on any pricing lists.<BR>
><BR>
cover was plain white, black lettering. No interior color at all. My first<BR>
GM used it in '79. Cover was carstock. No module number. May have been a<BR>
reprint of the tournament module.<BR>
<BR>
All three I've seen have been from estate sales; could possibly be the same<BR>
one copy three times.<BR>
<BR>
William F. Hostman  |  "Smith & Wesson: THe original Point and Click<BR>
interface!"<BR>
Aramis 0602 C55A364-C S kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge-<BR>
533<BR>
aramis@gci.net http://home.gci.net/~aramis Vilani: uilamaanamti sirohbrankilin<BR>
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn- t4-- tt+ to- tg-- ru+ ge 3i+ c+ jt-() au+ st- ls<BR>
pi+() ta+ he+(-) kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge- pi+<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 01 Apr 2000 04:14:53 -0900<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Evidence of a free Press in the Third Imperium <BR>
<BR>
Jason Postma <JasonP@i-link.net> wrote<BR>
<BR>
> CAPITAL/CORE DATE: 081-1123 <BR>
> Lucan bluntly forbade the Imperial Ministry of Justice from continuing its<BR>
> investigations into what is now known as the Nodokundu affair on Manshuruk<BR>
> Lucan went on to warn<BR>
> Traveller News Service that its coverage of these events was "meddlesome and<BR>
> prying." TNS should discontinue following this story, he said, lest the<BR>
> service find itself "suspected of treasonous tendencies." <BR>
> The issuance of such a warning to the TNS is without Imperial precedent. <BR>
<BR>
> The TNS apparently found it noteworthy that Lucan indirectly threatened<BR>
> them, good evidence that they are used to having a fairly free reign in what<BR>
> stories they decide to develop and publish.<BR>
<BR>
But the Imperium has an "Official Secrets" act. I think the<BR>
noteworthy fact here is that Lucan implied TNS's actions were<BR>
_Treason_. TNS might normally be forbidden to publish<BR>
certain articles on pain of jail, loss of assets, etc but<BR>
what is without precedent is the barely veiled threat that<BR>
Lucan would have TNS people taken out and shot. I would tend<BR>
to agree that TNS normally is fairly free, but I think that<BR>
this is probably because TNS (knowing what is good for it)<BR>
usually follows the government line anyway. Smaller, more<BR>
rebellious news organizations may be censored more frequently<BR>
than TNS.<BR>
<BR>
Have you ever wondered who _owns_ TNS anyway?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 01 Apr 2000 07:15:11 -0600<BR>
From: Michael Maley <mmaley@home.com><BR>
Subject: Re: The Beyond<BR>
<BR>
might try:  www.geocities.com/darkhstarr/index.html<BR>
<BR>
"Smart, David J (David)" wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> James W. Lindsay posted:<BR>
> ><BR>
> >On Sun, 26 Mar 2000 21:39:39 -0600, Michael Maley wrote:<BR>
> ><BR>
> >> I've just added text system information from my campaign<BR>
> onto my site<BR>
> >> for the Beyond sector.  With any luck I'll have all the<BR>
> >> sectors typed up<BR>
> >> by Tuesday.  Some of the information is per Paranoid<BR>
> >> Press' Beyond book<BR>
> >> and some I've added or adapted for my campaign.<BR>
> >><BR>
> >> darkhstarr (link if interested is below)<BR>
> >><BR>
> >> www.geocities.com/area51/shuttle/4897/darkhstarr/index.html<BR>
> ><BR>
> >URL does not compute :(<BR>
> <BR>
> Try going up a couple of levels to:<BR>
> <BR>
> http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shuttle/4897/<BR>
> <BR>
> You'll have to poke around his links on the bottom<BR>
> left of his page.<BR>
> <BR>
> David<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 01 Apr 2000 07:15:11 -0600<BR>
From: Michael Maley <mmaley@home.com><BR>
Subject: Re: The Beyond<BR>
<BR>
might try:  www.geocities.com/darkhstarr/index.html<BR>
<BR>
"Smart, David J (David)" wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> James W. Lindsay posted:<BR>
> ><BR>
> >On Sun, 26 Mar 2000 21:39:39 -0600, Michael Maley wrote:<BR>
> ><BR>
> >> I've just added text system information from my campaign<BR>
> onto my site<BR>
> >> for the Beyond sector.  With any luck I'll have all the<BR>
> >> sectors typed up<BR>
> >> by Tuesday.  Some of the information is per Paranoid<BR>
> >> Press' Beyond book<BR>
> >> and some I've added or adapted for my campaign.<BR>
> >><BR>
> >> darkhstarr (link if interested is below)<BR>
> >><BR>
> >> www.geocities.com/area51/shuttle/4897/darkhstarr/index.html<BR>
> ><BR>
> >URL does not compute :(<BR>
> <BR>
> Try going up a couple of levels to:<BR>
> <BR>
> http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shuttle/4897/<BR>
> <BR>
> You'll have to poke around his links on the bottom<BR>
> left of his page.<BR>
> <BR>
> David<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 01 Apr 2000 07:27:29 -0600<BR>
From: Michael Maley <mmaley@home.com><BR>
Subject: Re: The Beyond<BR>
<BR>
Sorry it doesn't work.  Might try the shortcut:<BR>
www.geocities.com/darkhstarr/index.html for the index page (it's what I<BR>
use when I check my site on someone else's computer) or<BR>
www.geocities.com/darkhstarr/Beyond.<BR>
<BR>
Just got for the first time today to finish the sector text info.  Hope<BR>
to finish the background info this weekend, but....<BR>
<BR>
darkhstarr<BR>
<BR>
"James W. Lindsay" wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> On Sun, 26 Mar 2000 21:39:39 -0600, Michael Maley wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> > I've just added text system information from my campaign onto my site<BR>
> > for the Beyond sector.  With any luck I'll have all the sectors typed up<BR>
> > by Tuesday.  Some of the information is per Paranoid Press' Beyond book<BR>
> > and some I've added or adapted for my campaign.<BR>
> ><BR>
> > darkhstarr (link if interested is below)<BR>
> ><BR>
> > www.geocities.com/area51/shuttle/4897/darkhstarr/index.html<BR>
> <BR>
> URL does not compute :(<BR>
> <BR>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
> James W. Lindsay             Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada<BR>
> Website: http://members.home.net/jlindsay          ICQ: #7521644<BR>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
> If at first you DO succeed, try not to look astonished!<BR>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2000 08:39:11 EST<BR>
From: Qstor@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Landgrab: Esalin<BR>
<BR>
"settled by Imperial colonists in  835 Esalin was taken by the Zhodani in  <BR>
1082 with joint conrol and netrality declarted in 1098. The world was retaken <BR>
by the imperium in 1110. Easlin retains a large population of zhodani who <BR>
have been well treated by baron adm. von smit who led the assualt on esalin <BR>
during the 5th frontier war. The world has been maintained as a netural <BR>
meeting ground for imperial and zhodani diplomats, even thought it is now <BR>
firmly part of the imperium" BtC p. 57<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 01 Apr 2000 07:56:28 -0600<BR>
From: "D. Smart" <dsmart@imagin.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Plastic Skins to Protect from Solar Flares<BR>
<BR>
> From: "Josh W. Spencer" <macmanjws@earthlink.net><BR>
> <BR>
> SD Mooney wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> > New Scientist has an article on how to protect ships from solar<BR>
> > storms by equalising charge around the hull.<BR>
> ><BR>
> > http://www.newscientist.com/news/news_223243.html<BR>
<snip><BR>
> > the University of Toronto have developed a polymer called a<BR>
> > polyferrocene which has iron atoms bound into its molecular<BR>
> > structure. This makes it electrically conducting. The polymer allows<BR>
> > the charge to equalise around  the surface of the satellite.<BR>
> <BR>
> ObTrav: This polymer coating technique is impossible at TL 7, expensive at<BR>
> TL 8 and routine at TL 9 and up.<BR>
<BR>
An interesting idea. What's the downside of this? Does the<BR>
satellite<BR>
need to be discharged? If so, how? What happens if a<BR>
maintenance<BR>
worker touches a non-discharged sat?<BR>
<BR>
David<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2000 09:16:58 EST<BR>
From: Qstor@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Landgrab: Esalin<BR>
<BR>
My apologies for sending this to the list...I ment to send it privately to <BR>
the requester.....<BR>
<BR>
Mike<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2000 08:18:07 -0600 (EST)<BR>
From: Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Trading in Danger<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2000 18:49:25 +1000<BR>
From: "Katharine Whitchurch" <katts@globalfreeway.com.au><BR>
Subject: Trading in Danger<BR>
<BR>
> On the other hand, if people wont trade with belters and such on the<BR>
> fringes of these systems, then those mineral deposits are going to go<BR>
> un-exploited.<BR>
                                                                               <BR>
This also supports the canonical existence of the Type J Seeker, which is<BR>
far from the most economical mining and surveying platform -- unless you<BR>
have to jump outsystem to make your sales.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2000 06:37:30 -0800<BR>
From: "Jesse LaBranche" <Vanquer@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Crossing Worlds<BR>
<BR>
> There is strong evidence for it, it's just not explicitly stated in the<BR>
> module itself. The adventure was designed to introduce the concept of<BR>
> Metamorphosis Alpha to D&D gamers, it contained mutated beasties and<BR>
> high-tech artifacts, and it was supposed to be just one small part of a<BR>
> larger ship. The robots and technology in Barrier Peaks follow the same<BR>
> scheme as the ones in Metamorphosis Alpha (and even look the same). With<BR>
all<BR>
> of that evidence, I think it's tough to argue that the bit of ship in<BR>
> Barrier Peaks *wasn't* a chunk of the Warden. Of course, others may parse<BR>
> evidence in a different fashion, and they may draw their own conclusions.<BR>
<BR>
> Truthfully, it doesn't really matter to me beyond the fact that I thought<BR>
I<BR>
> could be helpful to someone who seemed to have questions as to what the<BR>
> relation between the products was.<BR>
<BR>
Hey Chris,<BR>
<BR>
    Your answers were a good help.  I had always considered the ship in<BR>
S3 to be the Warden as well,  although it is possible that it could have<BR>
been a chunk of another "like" ship I guess.<BR>
<BR>
Later,<BR>
<BR>
Jesse.<BR>
vanquer@email.msn.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2000 06:39:51 -0800<BR>
From: "Jesse LaBranche" <Vanquer@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Re D&D Known World & S3<BR>
<BR>
> Don't you mean Mystara? Blackmoor is on mystara, not greyhawk. And the<BR>
ship<BR>
> in question was the SS Beagle. Which was a Star Frontiers tie-in. or, at<BR>
> least, was tied in to SF later. It's defined in the Gaz for Glantri the<BR>
> ship was the Beagle, and brought down Blackmoor by changing the spin.<BR>
> William F. Hostman<BR>
<BR>
No,  Blackmoor appears in both Greyhawk and Mystara.  I don't recall exactly<BR>
where on Mystara,  however in Greyhawk it is north of the main maps in the<BR>
World of Greyhawk boxed set- east of the lands of black ice.<BR>
<BR>
Later.<BR>
<BR>
Jesse.<BR>
vanquer@email.msn.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2000 10:00:19 -0500<BR>
From: "Thom Harris" <thomharr@mediaone.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Trading in Danger<BR>
<BR>
See my included comments....<BR>
<BR>
Thom<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: "Katharine Whitchurch" <katts@globalfreeway.com.au><BR>
Subject: Trading in Danger<BR>
<BR>
> This is a collection of random thoughts, triggered by the amount of<BR>
thinking<BR>
> I've been doing about the fringe of the Imperial fringe.<BR>
><BR>
<Snipped><BR>
><BR>
> The solution is to pay risk premiums. The basic amount is Cr 650 per dton<BR>
of<BR>
> freight to go to an unsafe point in a system (the same as an Amber Zone).<BR>
> Add to this the modifier for a Frontier world, which should be worth an<BR>
> additional 20% or so, and we potentially have a pay rate of about about Cr<BR>
> 1500 for a 1 parsec trip or about Cr 2150 for a 2 parsec trip.<BR>
><BR>
<Snipped><BR>
><BR>
I have always traded with my players at "Fair Market Value" when doing<BR>
speculative trading. If contracted to take a load to an inhospitable market<BR>
we always negotiate up front the "extra fees" (EF's) or in some cases<BR>
"Danger Pay" (DP). Another thing we do is lay on heavy insurance and try to<BR>
negotiate the cost into the EF's. I do like your ideas for adding<BR>
percentages though. I guess subconsciously I was doing just that, I just<BR>
never put a specific amount on it.<BR>
><BR>
> There is no single solution to the fact that neither party can really<BR>
afford<BR>
> to trust the other.<BR>
><BR>
<Snipped><BR>
><BR>
All your ideas are reasonable. I tend to pass rumors at bars or overhear<BR>
conversations in hotel lobbies, things like that to inform (lead) my PC's.<BR>
Most often I'll set them up a good deal with some small hardships and reward<BR>
them for taking a chance and "Traveller'ng" to new and exotic places. My old<BR>
group also liked to do salvage expeditions out in the fringes. It usually<BR>
takes weeks to get there at J2 and offers ample opportunity for adventure.<BR>
><BR>
<Snipped><BR>
> Ian Whitchurch<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 01 Apr 2000 07:10:48<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Re Gut Grenades<BR>
<BR>
At 03:29 PM 3/31/2000 PST, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Well, if I was the CO, I think my first move would be to tell him that<BR>
>the troopies he's cooking for have special "vitamin" needs. And that<BR>
>the "hot oil", and spices supply them. And *surely* an *experienced*<BR>
>shugilli like himself can find a way to work these into the food<BR>
>acceptably... <BR>
<BR>
Leonard, do you *really* want to tell a Vilani cook that your troops have<BR>
some vitamin deficiencies?<BR>
- --<BR>
<BR>
Duugirashir Irebamenagiin  gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
  http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/sylea.html<BR>
Inquisitor Maximus, Reformed Canon Church of Sylea<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 01 Apr 2000 07:17:32<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: T5 Announcement<BR>
<BR>
At 12:22 AM 4/1/2000 -0500, you wrote:<BR>
>http://www.downport.com/news/index.html<BR>
<BR>
Since I had carefully disengaged my Gridlore Technologies Caffiene Delivery<BR>
System before hitting that link, all my computer systems have survived intact.<BR>
<BR>
Good one.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 01 Apr 2000 07:07:46<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: New Madrid Fault<BR>
<BR>
At 11:01 PM 3/31/2000 EST, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>is a truly horrid fiction book recently published that went into extremely <BR>
>melodramatic detail over what might happen if the fault let go again with<BR>
>the same severity. I think it may have originally been an attempt at a <BR>
>movie-of-the-week screenplay.<BR>
<BR>
Gah. I read that thing.  It read like somebody's dissertation had run into<BR>
the script for a soap opera.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2000 10:48:16 -0500<BR>
From: "Thom Harris" <thomharr@mediaone.net><BR>
Subject: Re: New Madrid Fault<BR>
<BR>
Just a little add-on to this to show it's effect in history, New Madrid WAS<BR>
the gateway to the west at the time of the earth quake. St Louis grew up out<BR>
of fright that there might be another one down there. There is a ridge line<BR>
that was formed from the land dropping by the Mississippi River. It starts<BR>
about 10 miles west of the river and runs north and south for over a hundred<BR>
miles. The name of this ridge line is appropriately "Riddle Hill". I'm from<BR>
Malden, MO. (the heart of the Boot Heel) originally, which is about 35 miles<BR>
<SSW> from New Madrid and we normally just called it "The Hill". I didn't<BR>
learn how it was formed until I was a teenager. The story goes, the first of<BR>
3 magnitude 8 (estimated) earth quakes hit  December 16, 1811. The<BR>
largest one recorded in the U.S. since then was the San Francisco quake of<BR>
1906 at a magnitude of 7.8.<BR>
<BR>
Thom<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: <Damage169@cs.com><BR>
Sent: Friday, March 31, 2000 11:01 PM<BR>
Subject: New Madrid Fault<BR>
<BR>
> In a message dated 3/31/00 10:34:46 AM Central Standard Time,<BR>
> owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com writes:<BR>
><BR>
>>Well, you are right, the New Madrid fault kinda sticks out. And, it _is_<BR>
>>known, having been the site of the largest recorded earthquake (largest is<BR>
>>in retrospect, looking at what shifted) IIRC, it was in 1830.<BR>
>><BR>
<Snipped><BR>
>><BR>
>Unfortunately incorrect. When the New Madrid (pronounced MADrid) Fault<BR>
>last let loose, it was recorded to have rung churchbells as far away as<BR>
>Pittsburgh, caused minor structural damage in Lexington and Nashville,<BR>
>broke dishes in Chicago and caused the Mississippi, Missouri and Ohio<BR>
>rivers to run in reverse. Floods were recorded as far upriver as<BR>
>Cincinnati, and the fault lies in the toe part (for some reason called the<BR>
>bootheel) of Missouri.<BR>
><BR>
<Snipped><BR>
><BR>
> Doug G.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2000 09:08:28 -0700 (MST)<BR>
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU><BR>
Subject: Re: S3<BR>
<BR>
On Sat, 1 Apr 2000, William F. Hostman wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> All three I've seen have been from estate sales; could possibly be the same<BR>
> one copy three times.<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
OOOOOOhhhhhh <spooky music> "the cursed moduuuuuulllleeee!!!"<BR>
<BR>
(only one way to have an estate sale, after all)<BR>
<BR>
Bruce Johnson<BR>
University of Arizona<BR>
College of Pharmacy<BR>
Information Technology Group<BR>
<BR>
Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2000 11:34:41 -0500<BR>
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net><BR>
Subject: RE: Re D&D Known World & S3<BR>
<BR>
Frank Pitt said:<BR>
<BR>
> You'll note I explicitly said "monochrome" and not pastel, as it was<BR>
> basically a black and white photocopy or Getstener copy of the Origins II<BR>
> game. From memory it was not labelled "S3"<BR>
<BR>
I've heard people use the term "monochrome" in reference to the pastel<BR>
modules, although their covers were not actually monochrome.<BR>
<BR>
> The pastels of S1 and S2 are definitely '78 & '79 respectively (I have<BR>
> copies), there is a 1980 colour version of S1 as well.<BR>
<BR>
There is also a 1980 color version of S2. It's orange with cover art by Jeff<BR>
Dee.<BR>
<BR>
> There is a lot of stuff like this out there, including such things as the<BR>
> original "photocopied" (or at least extremely poorly printed) version of<BR>
> Tunnells & Trolls, )  and things like the "first" Games Workshop D&D<BR>
module,<BR>
> again a low print run, either photocopied or Gestetnered, thing.<BR>
<BR>
Yes, I know that there are rare and interesting objects out there. I've been<BR>
collecting this stuff for years. That's precisely why I'm being so<BR>
annoyingly skeptical. :)<BR>
<BR>
> Unfortunately, according to the mail I received back in 1975 from someone<BR>
> claiming to be his father, the English Steve Jackson died in a motorcycle<BR>
> accident just before then, and his games died with him.<BR>
><BR>
> Of course, that could have been a cover story, as about that time this guy<BR>
> called Steve Jackson appeared in the US with a game called Ogre...<BR>
<BR>
It's neither the truth nor a cover story. Someone was pulling your leg or<BR>
playing a trick on you. Steve Jackson was alive and well at least into the<BR>
early 80s (and beyond). In White Dwarf there was a photo of the English<BR>
Steve Jackson and the American Steve Jackson sitting side by side, each<BR>
reading the other's product. The English Steve Jackson was reading Car Wars,<BR>
if I remember the picture correctly. I think the issue was around '82 or<BR>
'83.<BR>
<BR>
> I've been scanning my copy so that it will be preserved for posterity, but<BR>
> it was never a very good printing, most things from those days were<BR>
printed<BR>
> at home using hand cranked Gestetners or copied on primitive photocopiers<BR>
> after being typed by hamd, with overall print runs in the hundreds or<BR>
less.<BR>
<BR>
I'm extremely familiar with the TSR stuff from that period, as I'm an<BR>
extremely active collector of it. I've just never seen any reference to a<BR>
published Barrier Peaks until "The Dragon" printed a blurb announcing that<BR>
the Origins II tournament adventure was going to be published as S3.<BR>
<BR>
Still, those Old West Rules sound pretty neat, whatever their lineage. :)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2230<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2231</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
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Traveller-digest      Saturday, April 1 2000      Volume 1999 : Number 2231<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Stories in the printed copy of New Scientist which relate to Traveller<BR>
RE: Landgrab: Esalin<BR>
Re: T5 Announcement<BR>
Re: T5 Announcement<BR>
Re: MT Books for Sale<BR>
Re: Why Loren can't explain, why he can't explain<BR>
RE: April fool at Downport<BR>
THUDDD 12 (Commerce Raider):  How Many Entries?<BR>
Re: RS<BR>
Collapsing Ley Sector<BR>
Atlas of the Imperium/E-Bay<BR>
Re: free-floating planets<BR>
FLGS update - UK<BR>
Re: Plastic Skins to Protect from Solar Flares<BR>
Re: FLGS update - UK<BR>
Re: TML Landgrab<BR>
RE: Evidence of a free Press in the Third Imperium<BR>
RE: S3<BR>
RE: Atlas of the Imperium/E-Bay<BR>
RE: Re D&D Known World & S3<BR>
[OT] Barrier Peaks - My Final Comments on the Thread<BR>
Re: T5 Announcement<BR>
Re: Notes on building Heya<BR>
TML Landgrab - Saxe<BR>
Re: Traveller 3D maps and Computers at the game table<BR>
Re: Trading in Danger<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2000 09:37:40 -0700 (MST)<BR>
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU><BR>
Subject: Re: Stories in the printed copy of New Scientist which relate to Traveller<BR>
<BR>
On Sat, 1 Apr 2000, Josh W. Spencer wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> SD Mooney wrote:<BR>
> > <BR>
> > The Drifters - a report on the discovery of 25 free floating planets<BR>
> > between the stars by the University of Herfordshire and Oxford<BR>
> > University.  They actually found 150 brown dwarfs as well. The find<BR>
> > was done using the UK infrared telescope on Mauna Kea and they were<BR>
> > looking around the Orion nebula.<BR>
> > <BR>
> > ObTrav: many people dispute the ability to perform deep space jumps,<BR>
> > even  though it is in canon. It's a perennial TML thread. The<BR>
> > discovery of large (?) numbers of brown dwarfs and planets free of<BR>
> > stellar influence between systems allows you to perform deep space<BR>
> > jumps even if you decide to use the mass/tidal limit argument for<BR>
> > jump operations.<BR>
<BR>
> ObTrav #2: It also seems that if you have brown dwarfs roaming the universe<BR>
> inbetween established stellar systems, not only are they good for jump ops<BR>
> but they're also another hydrogen source, especially if you can scoop it!<BR>
> It's also logical to assume that the Imperial Navy will want to control the<BR>
> critical BD's which lie along same jump lines....the ones the civilians<BR>
> wouldn't necessarily know about.<BR>
<BR>
Minor problem with this. If we can find them so easily with ground based<BR>
TL7 sensors, the Navy won't be able to keep them a secret at TL12. <BR>
<BR>
Not when _hobbyist_ astronomers can put sensors in orbit that make the HST<BR>
or the Keck scopes look as crude as Galileo's first model...<BR>
<BR>
I'd imagine that the 'space between the stars' will be pretty well mapped<BR>
by 3I times.<BR>
<BR>
Consider, foex, the kinds of telescopes you could build with gravitic<BR>
light focussing ability. (The technology behind ships lasers) IN fact, it<BR>
would make Longbow actually kinda surprising in that it took soo long for<BR>
them to come up with it, unless it was simply larger than they'd ever<BR>
needed for their observations; I'd imagine that arrays that were merely<BR>
hundreds or thousands of kilometers across would suffice for most<BR>
astronomical work.<BR>
<BR>
Good question: what is the role Astronomy plays in the 3I sciences? <BR>
<BR>
Bruce Johnson<BR>
University of Arizona<BR>
College of Pharmacy<BR>
Information Technology Group<BR>
<BR>
Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2000 08:37:40 -0800<BR>
From: "Luther Martin" <martin@ksarul.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Landgrab: Esalin<BR>
<BR>
Thanks.<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of<BR>
> Qstor@aol.com<BR>
> Sent: Saturday, April 01, 2000 5:39 AM<BR>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> Subject: Re: Landgrab: Esalin<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> "settled by Imperial colonists in  835 Esalin was taken by the<BR>
> Zhodani in<BR>
> 1082 with joint conrol and netrality declarted in 1098. The world<BR>
> was retaken<BR>
> by the imperium in 1110. Easlin retains a large population of zhodani who<BR>
> have been well treated by baron adm. von smit who led the assualt<BR>
> on esalin<BR>
> during the 5th frontier war. The world has been maintained as a netural<BR>
> meeting ground for imperial and zhodani diplomats, even thought it is now<BR>
> firmly part of the imperium" BtC p. 57<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2000 11:44:53 EST<BR>
From: JLAROSEE@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: T5 Announcement<BR>
<BR>
Swordworlder....<BR>
  It's good you're in the fringe sector of Maine, parsecs from the Imperium and your fellow Travellers,..but watch out near term for corsairs..<evil grin>...Happy Fool's Day and Well Done!<BR>
  Jay@Medieval Starship<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2000 12:19:35 -0500<BR>
From: "J-Man" <j-man@iname.com><BR>
Subject: Re: T5 Announcement<BR>
<BR>
Ha ha, very funny...<BR>
___________________________________________________________<BR>
 J-Man<BR>
 ICQ# 2843475<BR>
 New Hampshire - U.S.A.<BR>
 Email : j-man@iname.com<BR>
 Home Page : http://www.gocsystems.com/<BR>
___________________________________________________________<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message ----- <BR>
From: "Kristian Miller" <travellerne@3rd-imperium.com><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Saturday, April 01, 2000 2:50 AM<BR>
Subject: Re: T5 Announcement<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> Sword-Worlder wrote:<BR>
> > <BR>
> > http://www.downport.com/news/index.html<BR>
> <BR>
> Wow! That's great news...check it out!<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 01 Apr 2000 11:15:59 -0600<BR>
From: Alex Ingram <ingram@airmail.net><BR>
Subject: Re: MT Books for Sale<BR>
<BR>
Do you still have Challenge magazines numbers 54, 60, 61, 64 and 77. If so,<BR>
please advise me.<BR>
<BR>
Alex Ingram<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 01 Apr 2000 17:24:12 GMT<BR>
From: j_pete@bellsouth.net (Pete)<BR>
Subject: Re: Why Loren can't explain, why he can't explain<BR>
<BR>
On Wed, 29 Mar 2000 18:25:53 -0900, Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
wrote:<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
>PPS:	Ever notice that Clive Tolson (Hoover's boyfriend), Clive<BR>
>Tombaugh (discoverer of Pluto) and Clive Staples [C.S.] Lewis<BR>
>(writer of the Narnia stories which included the term "Aslan")<BR>
>all had the same unusual first name? Coincidence? You be the<BR>
>judge....<BR>
<BR>
And then there is Clive Barker...<BR>
<BR>
- - Jeff Peterson (j_pete@bellsouth.net)<BR>
"Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax and get <BR>
 used to the idea."                  - Robert A. Heinlein<BR>
Pete 0609 D258A85-3 S kk- hi++ as+ va++ dr++ so zh- vi+ da++ A833<BR>
NOG #74  AirStar Nova 700<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 01 Apr 2000 10:15:10 -0800<BR>
From: Jesse DeGraff <jdegraff@pacbell.net><BR>
Subject: RE: April fool at Downport<BR>
<BR>
You shoulda' seen what I was planning, but thought better of due to AR3 and<BR>
time restraints ;)<BR>
Jesse<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
[mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of SD Mooney<BR>
Sent: Saturday, April 01, 2000 4:41 AM<BR>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Subject: April fool at Downport<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Hmm. He beat me to it ;-)<BR>
<BR>
I'd been considering one of two spoofs - either that WotC had bought<BR>
the rights to Traveller or that BITS had won the lottery, and bought<BR>
the rights/licence ;-)<BR>
<BR>
I think Colin's is better though....<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 01 Apr 2000 12:26:04 -0600<BR>
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: THUDDD 12 (Commerce Raider):  How Many Entries?<BR>
<BR>
How many folks have designed entries so far for THUDDD 12 (a TL-15<BR>
commerce raider)?<BR>
<BR>
Since Jason seems still to be suffering from an extended bout of<BR>
RealLife [tm], I figured that I would try to jumpstart THUDDD 12, and<BR>
host it myself.  I doubt that I can make the voting as pretty as it is<BR>
on Jason's THUDDD page, but I figure that an "ugly THUDDD" is better<BR>
than no THUDDD.<BR>
<BR>
If there are no objections to this, I hope to have things up and running<BR>
on my site in about ten days to two weeks.<BR>
<BR>
Any problems with this?<BR>
<BR>
For those who still need the THUDDD 12 specifications, e-mail me<BR>
off-list for now (they'll go up on my site when I post the competition).<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 01 Apr 2000 20:31:55 +0200<BR>
From: Ingo Heinscher <Hiroshi.Estigarribia@gmx.de><BR>
Subject: Re: RS<BR>
<BR>
At 00:01 01.04.00 EST, GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:<BR>
>In a message dated 00-03-31 11:35:41 EST, you write:<BR>
><BR>
><< You are, of course correct. The situation is just SO frustrating<BR>
however...<BR>
>  >><BR>
><BR>
>Has anyone contacted the man lately? made him an offer? done anything<BR>
besides <BR>
>curse the darkness?<BR>
><BR>
>LKW<BR>
<BR>
Have you? I heard that there were some problems with the licenses and what<BR>
they could be worth, but maybe it has been settled, from what you write...<BR>
<BR>
Is there a story (that you are allowd to tell <g>)?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
"This was not meant to be an aggresssion against the Siru Zirka. But we had<BR>
to organize our affairs a bit more efficiently. To be honest, we have had<BR>
to do this for almost 300 years by now."<BR>
unknown Terran politician, -2398 Imp<BR>
;-) ingo heinscher <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2000 20:09:24 +0100<BR>
From: "Nick Bradbeer" <nickb@ndirect.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Collapsing Ley Sector<BR>
<BR>
Being a fool with good intentions, I've left most of my Traveller stuff at<BR>
university over the holidays in order to force me to do some real work.<BR>
Unfortunately I've left behind the bits I need the most.... (TNE rulebook,<BR>
Path of Tears, etc..) for my current project, which is writeups for,<BR>
Nightmare/Ley.<BR>
<BR>
All I have is Galactic 2.4, which gives me the pre-collapse data.<BR>
<BR>
Does anybody have:<BR>
    a) UWPs for a collapsed Ley sector?<BR>
    b) Any writeups (canon or not) of worlds within the Nightmare subsector?<BR>
Imperial or post-collapse.<BR>
or failing either of the above:<BR>
    c) the rules for collapsing worlds from the TNE rulebook.<BR>
<BR>
And would they mind posting any of the above to me off list.<BR>
<BR>
Thanks in advance, people*.<BR>
<BR>
Nick<BR>
+++<BR>
*Excluding K'kree.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2000 15:14:32 EST<BR>
From: Qstor@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Atlas of the Imperium/E-Bay<BR>
<BR>
There is one for sale on E-bay for $65 US...Whew TOO high....Now I could <BR>
afford it if my cousin would give me back my AD&D Demigods and Deities with <BR>
Chuthu in it! <BR>
<BR>
Does anyone know if Mark Miller has copies of the Atlas of the Imperium for <BR>
sale on his site?<BR>
<BR>
Thanks<BR>
Mike<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2000 12:34:44 -0800<BR>
From: "Bruce Macintosh" <bruce.macintosh@worldnet.att.net><BR>
Subject: Re: free-floating planets<BR>
<BR>
>The Drifters - a report on the discovery of 25 free floating planets<BR>
>between the stars by the University of Herfordshire and Oxford<BR>
>University.  They actually found 150 brown dwarfs as well. The find<BR>
>was done using the UK infrared telescope on Mauna Kea and they were<BR>
>looking around the Orion nebula.<BR>
<BR>
My professional opinion is that this is probably wrong; they've underestimated<BR>
the effects of how much dimmer and more red dust absorption makes<BR>
normal background stars look, and classified a bunch of background stars<BR>
as planets/brown dwarfs.<BR>
<BR>
For comparison, there's a soon-to-be-published Keck telescope study by<BR>
much more careful people (including the person who the Oxford team site as a<BR>
source for their dust absorption numbers) that finds many fewer BDs and no<BR>
"planets".<BR>
<BR>
Not to say that free-floating BDs don't exist, but the<BR>
Herfordshire/Oxford/UKIRT<BR>
claims are probably wrong.<BR>
<BR>
Bruce<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2000 20:16:44 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: FLGS update - UK<BR>
<BR>
Hi,<BR>
<BR>
My local FLGS (Best Books and Games in Liverpool) has 4 copies of the <BR>
Classic Traveller Reprints, 2 copies of TNE rules, 1 copy of T4 and a <BR>
selection of other material in at the moment. And at least two copies <BR>
of GT Starports, and the GT Main Rules x 1.<BR>
<BR>
Phone is 0151 707 1001 - they mail order without charging postage if <BR>
you can handle 2nd class mail.<BR>
<BR>
DOm<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2000 20:12:47 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Plastic Skins to Protect from Solar Flares<BR>
<BR>
At 11:35 -0500 1/4/00, "D. Smart" <dsmart@imagin.net> wrote:<BR>
> > > the University of Toronto have developed a polymer called a<BR>
> > > polyferrocene which has iron atoms bound into its molecular<BR>
> > > structure. This makes it electrically conducting. The polymer allows<BR>
> > > the charge to equalise around  the surface of the satellite.<BR>
>An interesting idea. What's the downside of this? Does the<BR>
>satellite<BR>
>need to be discharged? If so, how? What happens if a<BR>
>maintenance<BR>
>worker touches a non-discharged sat?<BR>
<BR>
They develop the same charge?<BR>
<BR>
I actually posted the whole article - I'm afraid I'm a clanky not a <BR>
spark so electrickery is not my best point. I suspect that nyone <BR>
touching it will earth it if they are of a lower charge but I can't <BR>
be certain.<BR>
<BR>
Leonard?<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2000 15:51:02 EST<BR>
From: Qstor@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: FLGS update - UK<BR>
<BR>
I couldn't wait for GT Starports to arrive at my FLGS in the US so I ordered <BR>
from the SJG web site....but UPS hasn't brought it yet :(<BR>
<BR>
Guess I should have went to the FLGS instead :)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2000 17:33:30 +0100<BR>
From: John Wood <John@elvw.demon.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: TML Landgrab<BR>
<BR>
Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com> writes<BR>
>>From: "James W. Lindsay" <jlindsay@home.com><BR>
><BR>
>>According to BtC, Quopist is the home of both humans and the <BR>
>>"Jonkeereen"-- an unknown race (at least there's no write-up in<BR>
><BR>
>>BtC that I can find).  The races are divided approximately <BR>
>>47%/53% respectively.<BR>
><BR>
>That sounds vaguely familiar, but I recall the Jonkeereen from<BR>
>much longer ago, like CT or MT era.  I'll see what I can find as<BR>
>I'm going through back issues of Challenge, etc., for<BR>
>information on Mongo.<BR>
<BR>
A six-page article on the Jonkeereen was published in Megatraveller<BR>
Journal #3, if that's what you're thinking of...<BR>
<BR>
John<BR>
 <BR>
John G. Wood  |  john@elvw.demon.co.uk  |  Oxford, United Kingdom<BR>
IMTU tc+ tm+ tn t4(+) ru--(+) ge 3i+ jt au- st ls+ hi++ so- zh+ pi+ jd++<BR>
Traveller IS Forms, Gal2CC, etc: http://www.elvw.demon.co.uk/Traveller/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2000 09:42:24 +1200<BR>
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: Evidence of a free Press in the Third Imperium<BR>
<BR>
On Behalf Of Peter Newman<BR>
<BR>
> Have you ever wondered who _owns_ TNS anyway?<BR>
<BR>
The clone of Rupert Murdoch<BR>
<BR>
Frankie<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2000 09:58:15 +1200<BR>
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: S3<BR>
<BR>
> On Sat, 1 Apr 2000, William F. Hostman wrote:<BR>
><BR>
> > All three I've seen have been from estate sales; could possibly<BR>
> be the same<BR>
> > one copy three times.<BR>
> ><BR>
><BR>
> OOOOOOhhhhhh <spooky music> "the cursed moduuuuuulllleeee!!!"<BR>
><BR>
> (only one way to have an estate sale, after all)<BR>
<BR>
H'mm not a bad idea actually....<BR>
<BR>
I've been looking for an idea for an off-the-wall LARP, with an RPG flavour.<BR>
<BR>
I think I'll write that one up. Easy characters, just get everyone to play<BR>
them selves in the standard "murder-mystery" type plot, but in reality the<BR>
"cursed module" is at fault, born when Gary Gygax first sold his soul for<BR>
access to the Magic Pen that forces one to write in overly flowery prose,<BR>
and with every death, it's powers are increasing...<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Frankie<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2000 10:12:57 +1200<BR>
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: Atlas of the Imperium/E-Bay<BR>
<BR>
> On Behalf Of  Qstor@aol.com<BR>
> There is one for sale on E-bay for $65 US...Whew TOO high....<BR>
<BR>
Far too high, it's a crappy book. Perhaps not as inaccurate as the T4<BR>
equivalent, but no extra info.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2000 10:08:51 +1200<BR>
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: Re D&D Known World & S3<BR>
<BR>
> On Behalf Of Chris Seamans<BR>
> > The pastels of S1 and S2 are definitely '78 & '79 respectively (I have<BR>
> > copies), there is a 1980 colour version of S1 as well.<BR>
><BR>
> There is also a 1980 color version of S2. It's orange with cover<BR>
> art by Jeff Dee.<BR>
<BR>
I thought there probably was, but I don't have that one, so couldn't confirm<BR>
it.<BR>
<BR>
<snip><BR>
> > Unfortunately, according to the mail I received back in 1975<BR>
> > from someone claiming to be his father, the English Steve Jackson<BR>
> > died in a  motorcycle accident just before then, and his games<BR>
> > died with him.<BR>
> ><BR>
> > Of course, that could have been a cover story, as about that<BR>
> > time this guy called Steve Jackson appeared in the US with a<BR>
> > game called Ogre...<BR>
><BR>
> It's neither the truth nor a cover story. Someone was pulling your leg or<BR>
> playing a trick on you. Steve Jackson was alive and well at least into the<BR>
> early 80s (and beyond). In White Dwarf there was a photo of the English<BR>
> Steve Jackson and the American Steve Jackson sitting side by side, each<BR>
> reading the other's product. The English Steve Jackson was<BR>
> reading Car Wars, if I remember the picture correctly. I think the issue<BR>
was<BR>
> around '82 or '83.<BR>
<BR>
Note the date on which the Traveller list received my mail.<BR>
<grin><BR>
<BR>
> I'm extremely familiar with the TSR stuff from that period, as I'm an<BR>
> extremely active collector of it. I've just never seen any reference to a<BR>
> published Barrier Peaks until "The Dragon" printed a blurb announcing that<BR>
> the Origins II tournament adventure was going to be published as S3.<BR>
><BR>
> Still, those Old West Rules sound pretty neat, whatever their lineage. :)<BR>
<BR>
When I'm finished scanning them I'll let you know.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2000 17:19:09 -0500<BR>
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net><BR>
Subject: [OT] Barrier Peaks - My Final Comments on the Thread<BR>
<BR>
My curiosity was piqued after William and Frank commented on early versions<BR>
of Expedition to the Barrier Peaks, so I decided to go right to the source<BR>
and ask Mr. Gygax himself. As it turns out, no version was ever published<BR>
before 1980. He said that his original Origins II materials may have been<BR>
photocopied at one point, but it would consist only of his own notes and<BR>
working materials.<BR>
<BR>
So, that's the story for the other collectors out there, and my final post<BR>
on the subject. My apologies for the "off-topicness" of this post.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2000 17:32:13 -0500<BR>
From: "Michael Peters" <travelleri@home.com><BR>
Subject: Re: T5 Announcement<BR>
<BR>
Swordy,<BR>
<BR>
Just wanted to let you know that you've made a grown man cry! Woke up this<BR>
morning not remembering the date and saw this message, Naturally hit the<BR>
site and started to whoop with joy! Unfortunately the further I read the<BR>
quieter the sound got until it changed to sobs as I reluctantly clicked on<BR>
the link and saw those words, for ever etched in my memory, " April Fools".<BR>
I just wanted to say congratulations on the success of the joke.... I hope<BR>
your happy now!  ;*)<BR>
<BR>
A very disappointed Mike<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: Sword-Worlder <swordworlder@yahoo.com><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Saturday, April 01, 2000 12:22 AM<BR>
Subject: T5 Announcement<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> http://www.downport.com/news/index.html<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2000 00:46:00 +0200 (METDST)<BR>
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk><BR>
Subject: Re: Notes on building Heya<BR>
<BR>
Ian Ferguson writes:<BR>
<BR>
>Hans Rancke-Madsen writes:<BR>
>>I was saying that if the Heyans produce enough food to feed 36 billion<BR>
>>people, they would become millionaires selling it to them. I can't recall<BR>
>>how much food a TTL 5 farmer can produce according to the rules in _World<BR>
>>Builder's Handbook_, but it isn't more than a few dozen. And not all of<BR>
>>Heya's population would be farmers.<BR>
><snipped><BR>
><BR>
>Each farmer would be making no more than he/she would if the food was being<BR>
>sold locally (assuming a similar demand), so I still don't follow the logic.<BR>
<BR>
If 60 million people were growing enough food to feed 36 bilion people and<BR>
selling it at a tiny markup, they would all be millionaires. The reason why<BR>
this does not happen is, IMO, that 60 million people cannon grow enough<BR>
food to feed 36 billion people. YMMV.<BR>
<BR>
>Presumably, the crop yields of TL 5 farmers would depend on a number of<BR>
>things, particularly conditions on Heya. Also, could the TL 5 farmers be<BR>
>using genetically modified crops and high-tech fertilizers/pesticides?<BR>
<BR>
>Would it be reasonable to allow 100 people to be fed from each TL 5 farmer<BR>
>under these conditions?<BR>
<BR>
It would take an unusually useful local plant, but why not? One, hopefully,<BR>
that can't be transplanted to other worlds.<BR>
<BR>
>This would require 360 million farmers (what is the population of Heya?)<BR>
<BR>
70 million.<BR>
<BR>
>if they were the sole source of food.  Given the huge (and stable) demand<BR>
>for food, it would not be a stretch to assume that a large portion of Heyans<BR>
>are farmers,<BR>
<BR>
TL 5 is industrial technology. You need more than farmers to grow food. You<BR>
need the whole underpinning of their society. Industrial workers, educators,<BR>
administrators, entertainers... <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Hans<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2000 17:48:58 -0500<BR>
From: Walt Smith <smithw@hartwick.edu><BR>
Subject: TML Landgrab - Saxe<BR>
<BR>
Request for assistance - can someone send me the BtC and SMC info<BR>
on Saxe, 0231 Spinward Marches? That's 0201 Five Sisters.<BR>
<BR>
It looks interesting, especially if Garoo (0110 Darrian) has a small polity<BR>
going. <BR>
<BR>
I wouldn't mind the info on Garoo, as well - I might just grab Garoo and<BR>
work it out as the center of a small frontier state.<BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 01 Apr 2000 18:08:25 -0500<BR>
From: Jeff Zeitlin <jzeitlin@cyburban.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller 3D maps and Computers at the game table<BR>
<BR>
On Fri, 31 Mar 2000 15:59:14 -0500 (EST), Ingo Heinscher<BR>
<Hiroshi.Estigarribia@gmx.de> wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>I wonder when Jeff Zeitlin finds time to do the next Freelance Traveller<BR>
>update...<BR>
<BR>
Will be posted weekend of April 8.  I finally got the flat put<BR>
back together after the painting, and now I have to do the damn<BR>
taxes, which I should have done back in February.<BR>
- --<BR>
Jeff Zeitlin<BR>
jzeitlin@cyburban.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2000 09:00:30 +1000<BR>
From: "Katharine Whitchurch" <katts@globalfreeway.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re: Trading in Danger<BR>
<BR>
> From: Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com><BR>
> Subject: Re: Trading in Danger<BR>
><BR>
> > On the other hand, if people wont trade with belters and such on the<BR>
> > fringes of these systems, then those mineral deposits are going to go<BR>
> > un-exploited.<BR>
><BR>
> This also supports the canonical existence of the Type J Seeker, which is<BR>
> far from the most economical mining and surveying platform -- unless you<BR>
> have to jump outsystem to make your sales.<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
My take on the Type J is that the Type S is the "jump torpedo" of the<BR>
Imperial Navy - they build zillions of them at about MCr 25 apiece (you can<BR>
get 100 for less than one "real warship"), and pass them on to the IISS for<BR>
detatched duty after 40 years or so duty (and some to INI for people looking<BR>
like they do detatched duty). Private interests then convert them to type<BR>
Js.<BR>
<BR>
The use isnt so much for taking samples out of the system for sale, but<BR>
rather to get you the heck out of there when some <person who eats food not<BR>
prepared by a shugiili> son of a <human who engages in sexual congress with<BR>
Vargr for pay> tries to bail you up 4 AU from the mainworld.<BR>
<BR>
> Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2000 10:00:19 -0500<BR>
> From: "Thom Harris" <thomharr@mediaone.net><BR>
> Subject: Re: Trading in Danger<BR>
> > The solution is to pay risk premiums. The basic amount is Cr 650 per<BR>
dton<BR>
> of<BR>
> > freight to go to an unsafe point in a system (the same as an Amber<BR>
Zone).<BR>
> > Add to this the modifier for a Frontier world, which should be worth an<BR>
> > additional 20% or so, and we potentially have a pay rate of about about<BR>
Cr<BR>
> > 1500 for a 1 parsec trip or about Cr 2150 for a 2 parsec trip.<BR>
> ><BR>
> <Snipped><BR>
> ><BR>
> I have always traded with my players at "Fair Market Value" when doing<BR>
> speculative trading. If contracted to take a load to an inhospitable<BR>
market<BR>
> we always negotiate up front the "extra fees" (EF's) or in some cases<BR>
> "Danger Pay" (DP). Another thing we do is lay on heavy insurance and try<BR>
to<BR>
> negotiate the cost into the EF's. I do like your ideas for adding<BR>
> percentages though. I guess subconsciously I was doing just that, I just<BR>
> never put a specific amount on it.<BR>
<BR>
The above is basically crunching the numbers to a basic amount from GT:FT.<BR>
<BR>
> ><BR>
> > There is no single solution to the fact that neither party can really<BR>
> afford<BR>
> > to trust the other.<BR>
> ><BR>
> <Snipped><BR>
> ><BR>
> All your ideas are reasonable. I tend to pass rumors at bars or overhear<BR>
> conversations in hotel lobbies, things like that to inform (lead) my PC's.<BR>
> Most often I'll set them up a good deal with some small hardships and<BR>
reward<BR>
> them for taking a chance and "Traveller'ng" to new and exotic places. My<BR>
old<BR>
> group also liked to do salvage expeditions out in the fringes. It usually<BR>
> takes weeks to get there at J2 and offers ample opportunity for adventure.<BR>
<BR>
The key is that you have to have an intermediary who both sides trust. I<BR>
imagine that a patron would test PCs by sending them on a number of small<BR>
missions to test them, before signing them up to the Wages of Fear.<BR>
<BR>
Ian Whitchurch<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2231<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2232</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
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Traveller-digest       Sunday, April 2 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2232<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: FLGS update - UK<BR>
Re: Association of Several Steves<BR>
Re: New Madrid Fault<BR>
Re: Stories in the printed copy of New Scientist which relate to Traveller<BR>
Re: Stories in the printed copy of New Scientist which relate to Traveller<BR>
Re: Trading in Danger<BR>
Re: can "habitable" worlds exist around M-V stars?<BR>
Re: RS<BR>
Dolphins in Traveller<BR>
Re: Dolphins in Traveller<BR>
RE: Association of Several Steves<BR>
Re: Trading in Danger<BR>
Re: Evidence of a free Press in the Third Imperium<BR>
Re: Why Loren can't explain, why he can't explain<BR>
Re: Evidence of a free Press in the Third Imperium<BR>
Re: Why Loren can't explain, why he can't explain<BR>
Re: Stories in the printed copy of New Scientist which relate to Traveller<BR>
Re: T5 Announcement<BR>
Re: Dolphins in Traveller<BR>
GT playtesting procedures<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2000 07:06:17 +0100<BR>
From: "Matthew Bond" <mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: FLGS update - UK<BR>
<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
From: Qstor@aol.com <Qstor@aol.com><BR>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Date: 01 April 2000 21:56<BR>
Subject: Re: FLGS update - UK<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>I couldn't wait for GT Starports to arrive at my FLGS in the US so I<BR>
ordered<BR>
>from the SJG web site....but UPS hasn't brought it yet :(<BR>
><BR>
>Guess I should have went to the FLGS instead :)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Yup, got mine today from Travelling Man in Leeds, along with the Classic<BR>
Reprints. I seem to have bought the last one of the reprints, but there was<BR>
still a copy of Starports there when I left.... <g><BR>
<BR>
Matt<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2000 19:06:59 EST<BR>
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Association of Several Steves<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 00-04-01 07:15:28 EST, you write:<BR>
<BR>
<< Unfortunately, according to the mail I received back in 1975 from someone<BR>
 claiming to be his father, the English Steve Jackson died in a motorcycle<BR>
 accident just before then, and his games died with him. >><BR>
<BR>
Steve _Curtis_ was involved with the old west skirmish rules<BR>
<BR>
The English Steve Jackson is still alive, last I heard. <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2000 08:55:10 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: New Madrid Fault<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>>> Well, you are right, the New Madrid fault kinda sticks out. And, it _is_<BR>
>>>  known, having been the site of the largest recorded earthquake (largest <BR>
> is<BR>
>>>  in retrospect, looking at what shifted) IIRC, it was in 1830. Some<BR>
>>>  TEOTWAWKI loon was predicting The Big One there last summer.<BR>
><BR>
> New Madrid Fault is now being taugh (or was in my Environmental Geo and<BR>
> Physical Geography courses in 96) as being a "Concentric Ring", "Sinking<BR>
> Ring" or "mass-depression" fault. In short, the concentric rings are<BR>
> sinking due to the weight of the plate. There is some geophysical evidence<BR>
> to support this. Also explains yellowstone, to some degree.<BR>
<BR>
I recall a story from 1960s or 1970s Analog where they had the ability<BR>
to predict earthquakes, even on other planets, once they had "baseline<BR>
data, including a "substantial" quake, to work from.<BR>
<BR>
The story was about the team collecting this data on a world that looks<BR>
good for colonization. The rest of the survey teams are long done, and<BR>
folks are claiming that the geophysics team is dragging their feat to<BR>
keep the place from getting colonized. <BR>
<BR>
They, of course, maintain that the place is suspiciously inactive,<BR>
until there's a quake, they can't tell what an "average" quake on this<BR>
world will be like, which means the colom\nists can't design safe<BR>
buildings. <BR>
<BR>
Finally, just as they are about to be pulled out by politically<BR>
motivated orders, they get a quake... a force *10* quake. They barely<BR>
survive (well, the geophysics team in their observation "bunker"<BR>
survive, a lot of other folks don't). <BR>
<BR>
And the final results? The quake was *typical*! This place has few<BR>
quakes, but when it has them, *look out*...<BR>
<BR>
I assume the place must have very different "plates", if it has them at<BR>
all. <BR>
<BR>
ObTrav should be obvious...<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2000 09:07:22 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Stories in the printed copy of New Scientist which relate to Traveller<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> There are two stories in the printed (not web version of New <BR>
> Scientist) 1 April Issue (they don't look like spoofs....) which may <BR>
> be of interest:<BR>
><BR>
> Space Band Aid - describes a polycarbonate and epoxy solution for for <BR>
> plugging holes up to 10 cm in diameter in the International Space <BR>
> Station hull. This is for repairs from micrometeorite hits.<BR>
><BR>
> ObTrav - low tech space station and ship repairs.<BR>
><BR>
> The Drifters - a report on the discovery of 25 free floating planets <BR>
> between the stars by the University of Herfordshire and Oxford <BR>
> University.  They actually found 150 brown dwarfs as well. The find <BR>
> was done using the UK infrared telescope on Mauna Kea and they were <BR>
> looking around the Orion nebula.<BR>
><BR>
> ObTrav: many people dispute the ability to perform deep space jumps, <BR>
> even  though it is in canon. It's a perennial TML thread. The <BR>
> discovery of large (?) numbers of brown dwarfs and planets free of <BR>
> stellar influence between systems allows you to perform deep space <BR>
> jumps even if you decide to use the mass/tidal limit argument for <BR>
> jump operations.<BR>
<BR>
And folks are gonna have *real* fun trying to refuel from a brown<BR>
dwarf. Remember, they start around 30-50 times the mass of jupiter, but<BR>
with the *same* diameter. Which makes the gravity at the cloud tops<BR>
75-125 g. <BR>
<BR>
Better hope that sucker has icy satellites, and ones that are fairly<BR>
far out, at that. <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2000 09:13:14 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Stories in the printed copy of New Scientist which relate to Traveller<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> ObTrav #2: It also seems that if you have brown dwarfs roaming the universe<BR>
> inbetween established stellar systems, not only are they good for jump ops<BR>
> but they're also another hydrogen source, especially if you can scoop it!<BR>
> It's also logical to assume that the Imperial Navy will want to control the<BR>
> critical BD's which lie along same jump lines....the ones the civilians<BR>
> wouldn't necessarily know about.<BR>
<BR>
Sorry, but just because *we* are only just detecting them doesn't mean<BR>
that they are hard to locate.<BR>
<BR>
Any BD within jump range will be fairly easy to find with *civilian*<BR>
grade sensors FROM ORBIT. We are handicapped by not being able to sit<BR>
out at 100 diameters with a 1-2 meter scope. Something that an<BR>
*amateur* astronomer can easily do at common Traveller tech levels. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2000 09:18:43 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Trading in Danger<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2000 18:49:25 +1000<BR>
> From: "Katharine Whitchurch" <katts@globalfreeway.com.au><BR>
> Subject: Trading in Danger<BR>
><BR>
>> On the other hand, if people wont trade with belters and such on the<BR>
>> fringes of these systems, then those mineral deposits are going to go<BR>
>> un-exploited.<BR>
>                                                                              <BR>
>   <BR>
> This also supports the canonical existence of the Type J Seeker, which is<BR>
> far from the most economical mining and surveying platform -- unless you<BR>
> have to jump outsystem to make your sales.<BR>
<BR>
Keep in mind that unless you use "micro-jumps" it can take *months* to<BR>
get to the mainworld, or even to another part of the belt. Which is<BR>
cheaper? Fuel for a jump? Or 6 months worh of food and life support<BR>
consumables? <BR>
<BR>
Also, without a jump drive, you are stuck in one system, unless you can<BR>
arrange for a *big* ship to act as a ferry (which ought to be pretty<BR>
damned expensive!).<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2000 09:26:13 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: can "habitable" worlds exist around M-V stars?<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> On 31 Mar 00, at 10:41, Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>> In mail you write:<BR>
>> <BR>
>> > Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
>> >>Yes, a "TL 1" vacc suit is stretching things a lot.<BR>
>> ><BR>
>> > I have this vision of a guy in a suit made of several layers of skins,<BR>
>> > treated with some kind of wax, with a helmet carved out of some kind of<BR>
>> > crystal. Running out the back, a pair of hoses made from similar<BR>
>> > materials to the suit, meticulously assembled and sealed.<BR>
>> <BR>
>> Actually, I expect it to be linen canvas, sealed by treating with<BR>
>> linseed oil or the like (which upon exposure to UV polymerizes, giving one<BR>
>> of the first plastics!).<BR>
><BR>
> And once you know how glass should be doable at TL1.<BR>
<BR>
Glass *is* a TL1 product. <BR>
<BR>
> However large <BR>
> sheets aren't, so the helemt would have a composite "window" like a <BR>
> stained glass church window.<BR>
<BR>
Large sheets aren't needed for a helmet. Instead, the helmet could be<BR>
"blown" as a bubble of glass (well within their capability at mid<BR>
TL-1). Or, since that is a bit on the fragile side, use a bronze helmet<BR>
with small portholes (like hard-hat divers used to use). <BR>
<BR>
Also, the secret to large flat sheets of glass is something quite<BR>
doable at TL-1. You "simply" float the glass on molten tin. Gives a<BR>
nice flat surface, though a bit prone to ripples.<BR>
  <BR>
>> I'm not sure it it's practical to build a glass dome by melting the<BR>
>> materials onto a form. But it might be. In which case, you have gardens<BR>
>> under glass...<BR>
>> <BR>
>> Hmmmm...<BR>
>> <BR>
>> Now that I think about it, in low G, you could melt a big pool of<BR>
>> glass, then "blow" it into a dome. Maybe. Probably easier to use the<BR>
>> mirrors to fuse chunks of quartz together to make a dome.<BR>
><BR>
> IMO large scale glass blowing and the creation of large glass panes are <BR>
> probably TL2 technologies. Buildings had composite or stained glass <BR>
> windows for a reason.<BR>
<BR>
As I noted, large *flat* panes of glass aren't normal TL-1 tech. They<BR>
made panes by blowing a medium sized bubble of glass and then quickly<BR>
slitting up one side and flattening it. <BR>
<BR>
Stained glass windows are *still* made on small pieces for the same<BR>
reason they were then. Details. You need small pieces to get any kind<BR>
of details. <BR>
<BR>
If the star was bright enough, "bullseye" glass might be an option for<BR>
the greenhouses.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 01 Apr 2000 19:28:01 -0500<BR>
From: Jeff Zeitlin <jzeitlin@cyburban.com><BR>
Subject: Re: RS<BR>
<BR>
On Sat, 1 Apr 2000 07:12:57 -0500 (EST), GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>In a message dated 00-03-31 11:35:41 EST, you write:<BR>
<BR>
><< You are, of course correct. The situation is just SO frustrating however...<BR>
>  >><BR>
<BR>
>Has anyone contacted the man lately? made him an offer? done anything besides <BR>
>curse the darkness?<BR>
<BR>
I seem to recall that someone did, and posted the conclusion of<BR>
their exchange here.  Roger <spit> 's final response was, as I<BR>
recall, basically a polite version of "F*** off, it's not going<BR>
to happen, and if you ask me again it's going right into the bit<BR>
bucket."  Given that, I'd not be surprised if nobody tried again.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
Jeff Zeitlin<BR>
jzeitlin@cyburban.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 01 Apr 2000 18:25:06 -0600<BR>
From: "Kevin C. Carpenter" <teruiki@swbell.net><BR>
Subject: Dolphins in Traveller<BR>
<BR>
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.<BR>
<BR>
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	charset="iso-8859-1"<BR>
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<BR>
    I've been trying to locate any canon Traveller books that deal with =<BR>
'uplifted' dolphins. I think I've got the JTAS angle covered, but I =<BR>
don't have much in the way of MT or TNE material, so I don't know what's =<BR>
out there. Does anyone happen to know if there were any major =<BR>
supplements published that talk about them, or at least any supplements =<BR>
that mention them at all? Any help is appreciated, thanks.<BR>
<BR>
- - Kevin C. Carpenter<BR>
kccarpenter@swbell.net=20<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
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	charset="iso-8859-1"<BR>
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</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><HEAD><BR>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =<BR>
http-equiv=3DContent-Type><BR>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.3013.2600" name=3DGENERATOR><BR>
<STYLE></STYLE><BR>
</HEAD><BR>
<BR>
<DIV>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; I've been trying to =<BR>
locate any=20<BR>
canon Traveller books that deal with 'uplifted' dolphins. I think I've =<BR>
got the=20<BR>
JTAS angle covered, but I don't have much in the way of MT or TNE =<BR>
material, so I=20<BR>
don't know what's out there. Does anyone happen to know if there were =<BR>
any major=20<BR>
supplements published that talk about them, or at least any supplements =<BR>
that=20<BR>
mention them at all? Any help is appreciated, thanks.</DIV><BR>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><BR>
<DIV>- Kevin C. Carpenter</DIV><BR>
<DIV><A=20<BR>
href=3D"mailto:kccarpenter@swbell.net">kccarpenter@swbell.net =<BR>
</DIV><BR>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><BR>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><BR>
<BR>
- ------=_NextPart_000_0022_01BF9C07.9AB328C0--<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 01 Apr 2000 19:26:48 -0500<BR>
From: Peter Miller <thegolem@mindless.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Dolphins in Traveller<BR>
<BR>
I think Solomani and Aslan talks about it somewhere, but I don't remember <BR>
the exact reference and don't have my copy anymore *groan*<BR>
<BR>
Peter<BR>
<BR>
At 06:25 PM 4/1/00 -0600, you wrote:<BR>
>     I've been trying to locate any canon Traveller books that deal with <BR>
> 'uplifted' dolphins. I think I've got the JTAS angle covered, but I don't <BR>
> have much in the way of MT or TNE material, so I don't know what's out <BR>
> there. Does anyone happen to know if there were any major supplements <BR>
> published that talk about them, or at least any supplements that mention <BR>
> them at all? Any help is appreciated, thanks.<BR>
><BR>
>- Kevin C. Carpenter<BR>
><mailto:kccarpenter@swbell.net>kccarpenter@swbell.net<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
<BR>
__________________________Peter J. Miller<BR>
thegolem@mindless.com        ICQ #5294589<BR>
<BR>
"Loneliness is not a phase..."<BR>
          - 'Angry Chair', Alice in Chains<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2000 12:57:24 +1200<BR>
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: Association of Several Steves<BR>
<BR>
> On Behalf Of GDWGAMES@aol.com<BR>
><BR>
> In a message dated 00-04-01 07:15:28 EST, you write:<BR>
> << Unfortunately, according to the mail I received back in 1975 from<BR>
someone<BR>
>  claiming to be his father, the English Steve Jackson died in a motorcycle<BR>
>  accident just before then, and his games died with him. >><BR>
><BR>
> Steve _Curtis_ was involved with the old west skirmish rules<BR>
<BR>
Yes, I should have mentioned that in my last post where I admitted I wasn't<BR>
being serious.<BR>
<BR>
It's unfair to Steve Curtis for me to imply that Steve Jackson was<BR>
responsible for his work, especially as I really enjoyed it, and he can't<BR>
defend himself anymore.<BR>
<BR>
> The English Steve Jackson is still alive, last I heard.<BR>
<BR>
Yep.<BR>
<BR>
I seem to remember there were a number of other "Steves" that were involved<BR>
in "ASS" (Didn't they make tee-shits?).<BR>
<BR>
Frankie<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 01 Apr 2000 20:30:29 -0500<BR>
From: "Josh W. Spencer" <macmanjws@earthlink.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Trading in Danger<BR>
<BR>
Katharine Whitchurch wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> My take on the Type J is that the Type S is the "jump torpedo" of the<BR>
> Imperial Navy - they build zillions of them at about MCr 25 apiece (you can<BR>
> get 100 for less than one "real warship"), and pass them on to the IISS for<BR>
> detatched duty after 40 years or so duty (and some to INI for people looking<BR>
> like they do detatched duty). Private interests then convert them to type<BR>
> Js.<BR>
Hey wait a minute...heaven help the OTU if a Type S actually becomes a "real<BR>
warship."  :) :)<BR>
> <BR>
> The use isnt so much for taking samples out of the system for sale, but<BR>
> rather to get you the heck out of there when some <person who eats food not<BR>
> prepared by a shugiili> son of a <human who engages in sexual congress with<BR>
> Vargr for pay> tries to bail you up 4 AU from the mainworld.<BR>
I'm lost on the first <> reference, but not the second. :) :)<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Josh W. Spencer (macmanjws@earthlink.net)<BR>
VILANI ALIAS: Iashir Rekiinikimas Uiagam<BR>
Ypsilanti, Michigan, North America, Terra<BR>
Sol Subsector, Solomani Rim Sector<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 01 Apr 2000 20:32:37 -0500<BR>
From: "Josh W. Spencer" <macmanjws@earthlink.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Evidence of a free Press in the Third Imperium<BR>
<BR>
Frank G. Pitt wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> On Behalf Of Peter Newman<BR>
> <BR>
>> Have you ever wondered who _owns_ TNS anyway?<BR>
> <BR>
> The clone of Rupert Murdoch<BR>
<BR>
AUUUUUGGHHH! And *that's* the guy who's trying to buy General Motors? :) :)<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Josh W. Spencer (macmanjws@earthlink.net)<BR>
VILANI ALIAS: Iashir Rekiinikimas Uiagam<BR>
Ypsilanti, Michigan, North America, Terra<BR>
Sol Subsector, Solomani Rim Sector<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 01 Apr 2000 20:34:57 -0500<BR>
From: "Josh W. Spencer" <macmanjws@earthlink.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Why Loren can't explain, why he can't explain<BR>
<BR>
Pete wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> On Wed, 29 Mar 2000 18:25:53 -0900, Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
> wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
>> <BR>
>> PPS: Ever notice that Clive Tolson (Hoover's boyfriend), Clive<BR>
>> Tombaugh (discoverer of Pluto) and Clive Staples [C.S.] Lewis<BR>
>> (writer of the Narnia stories which included the term "Aslan")<BR>
>> all had the same unusual first name? Coincidence? You be the<BR>
>> judge....<BR>
> <BR>
> And then there is Clive Barker...<BR>
> <BR>
Uh oh....Pluto's discover was actually names CLYDE Tombaugh. He didn't<BR>
actually see any stellar anomalies in its general direction either, IIRC.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Josh W. Spencer (macmanjws@earthlink.net)<BR>
VILANI ALIAS: Iashir Rekiinikimas Uiagam<BR>
Ypsilanti, Michigan, North America, Terra<BR>
Sol Subsector, Solomani Rim Sector<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 02 Apr 2000 01:40:45 GMT<BR>
From: j_pete@bellsouth.net (Pete)<BR>
Subject: Re: Evidence of a free Press in the Third Imperium<BR>
<BR>
On Sat, 01 Apr 2000 20:32:37 -0500, "Josh W. Spencer"<BR>
<macmanjws@earthlink.net> wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Frank G. Pitt wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>> On Behalf Of Peter Newman<BR>
>> <BR>
>>> Have you ever wondered who _owns_ TNS anyway?<BR>
>> <BR>
>> The clone of Rupert Murdoch<BR>
><BR>
>AUUUUUGGHHH! And *that's* the guy who's trying to buy General Motors? :) :)<BR>
<BR>
Maybe he will combine the operations of all of his corporations. He<BR>
then might rename the new company *General Products*. :-O<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- - Jeff Peterson (j_pete@bellsouth.net)<BR>
"Don't talk to me about naval tradition. It's nothing but rum, sodomy, and the<BR>
 lash."                              - Winston Churchill<BR>
Pete 0609 D258A85-3 S kk- hi++ as+ va++ dr++ so zh- vi+ da++ A833<BR>
NOG #74  AirStar Nova 700<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 02 Apr 2000 01:41:40 GMT<BR>
From: j_pete@bellsouth.net (Pete)<BR>
Subject: Re: Why Loren can't explain, why he can't explain<BR>
<BR>
On Sat, 01 Apr 2000 20:34:57 -0500, "Josh W. Spencer"<BR>
<macmanjws@earthlink.net> wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Pete wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>> On Wed, 29 Mar 2000 18:25:53 -0900, Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
>> wrote:<BR>
>> <BR>
>>> <BR>
>>> PPS: Ever notice that Clive Tolson (Hoover's boyfriend), Clive<BR>
>>> Tombaugh (discoverer of Pluto) and Clive Staples [C.S.] Lewis<BR>
>>> (writer of the Narnia stories which included the term "Aslan")<BR>
>>> all had the same unusual first name? Coincidence? You be the<BR>
>>> judge....<BR>
>> <BR>
>> And then there is Clive Barker...<BR>
>> <BR>
>Uh oh....Pluto's discover was actually names CLYDE Tombaugh. He didn't<BR>
>actually see any stellar anomalies in its general direction either, IIRC.<BR>
<BR>
Wasn't Clyde the name of one of the ghosts on Pacman??<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- - Jeff Peterson (j_pete@bellsouth.net)<BR>
"Don't talk to me about naval tradition. It's nothing but rum, sodomy, and the<BR>
 lash."                              - Winston Churchill<BR>
Pete 0609 D258A85-3 S kk- hi++ as+ va++ dr++ so zh- vi+ da++ A833<BR>
NOG #74  AirStar Nova 700<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2000 18:23:14 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Stories in the printed copy of New Scientist which relate to Traveller<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> On Sat, 1 Apr 2000, Josh W. Spencer wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>> SD Mooney wrote:<BR>
>> > <BR>
>> > The Drifters - a report on the discovery of 25 free floating planets<BR>
>> > between the stars by the University of Herfordshire and Oxford<BR>
>> > University.  They actually found 150 brown dwarfs as well. The find<BR>
>> > was done using the UK infrared telescope on Mauna Kea and they were<BR>
>> > looking around the Orion nebula.<BR>
>> > <BR>
>> > ObTrav: many people dispute the ability to perform deep space jumps,<BR>
>> > even  though it is in canon. It's a perennial TML thread. The<BR>
>> > discovery of large (?) numbers of brown dwarfs and planets free of<BR>
>> > stellar influence between systems allows you to perform deep space<BR>
>> > jumps even if you decide to use the mass/tidal limit argument for<BR>
>> > jump operations.<BR>
><BR>
>> ObTrav #2: It also seems that if you have brown dwarfs roaming the universe<BR>
>> inbetween established stellar systems, not only are they good for jump ops<BR>
>> but they're also another hydrogen source, especially if you can scoop it!<BR>
>> It's also logical to assume that the Imperial Navy will want to control the<BR>
>> critical BD's which lie along same jump lines....the ones the civilians<BR>
>> wouldn't necessarily know about.<BR>
><BR>
> Minor problem with this. If we can find them so easily with ground based<BR>
> TL7 sensors, the Navy won't be able to keep them a secret at TL12. <BR>
><BR>
> Not when _hobbyist_ astronomers can put sensors in orbit that make the HST<BR>
> or the Keck scopes look as crude as Galileo's first model...<BR>
><BR>
> I'd imagine that the 'space between the stars' will be pretty well mapped<BR>
> by 3I times.<BR>
<BR>
Brown dwarfs (unless *very* old) ought to be detectable several sectors<BR>
away. Maybe more, I'll leave it up to Bruce to come up with some rough<BR>
temp/versus distance numbers. <BR>
<BR>
Rogue planets are a much harder target. <BR>
<BR>
> Consider, foex, the kinds of telescopes you could build with gravitic<BR>
> light focussing ability. (The technology behind ships lasers) IN fact, it<BR>
> would make Longbow actually kinda surprising in that it took soo long for<BR>
> them to come up with it, unless it was simply larger than they'd ever<BR>
> needed for their observations; I'd imagine that arrays that were merely<BR>
> hundreds or thousands of kilometers across would suffice for most<BR>
> astronomical work.<BR>
><BR>
> Good question: what is the role Astronomy plays in the 3I sciences? <BR>
<BR>
Well, planetology ("Planetary sciences") will have completed the split<BR>
long ago. It will have absorbed geology. And it may well be split into<BR>
at least two branches ("terrestrial" and "jovian"), which could be only<BR>
loosely joined. There may even be a third branch studying asteroids,<BR>
comets, and other bodies too small to have been substantially deformed<BR>
by self gravity.<BR>
<BR>
Stellar astronomy will be a lot richer. And I expect that it will be<BR>
more seperated from studies of galaxies. And "cosmology" will be<BR>
ignoring all of them. :-)<BR>
<BR>
Scouts and survey crew will likely have folks well versed in a<BR>
"bastard" discipline that combines parts of stellar astronomy and all<BR>
branches of planetary studies. <BR>
<BR>
They won't get into the details that specialists would like, but they'd<BR>
know enough to recognize when a specialist *should* be called in.<BR>
<BR>
And of course, sky survey type astronomers will be co-ordinating<BR>
observations between systems linked by ever longer "baselines" (I've<BR>
described the process before, so I won't go into it again). <BR>
<BR>
So stars, and larger planets will be located on maps covering areas far<BR>
from the astronomers (and all the military types will be glad of the<BR>
data for planning deep incursions in case of war). <BR>
<BR>
This is another good place for Bruce's input. How *much* detail of a<BR>
system should be obtainable at what distances with which TLs?<BR>
<BR>
Also, at what point is it simpler to just send a ship and *look*?<BR>
<BR>
Put all this together, and we'd have a nice resource for folks running<BR>
in something other than the OTU, or running in "unexplored" parts of<BR>
the OTU. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 01 Apr 2000 21:35:37 -0500<BR>
From: Bill Rutherford <worj@home.com><BR>
Subject: Re: T5 Announcement<BR>
<BR>
At 12:22 AM 04/01/2000 -0500, Swordworlder wrote:<BR>
>http://www.downport.com/news/index.html<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Send Bruno 'round to his place.  With the mallet...<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Bill Rutherford<BR>
worj@home.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 01 Apr 2000 22:16:04 -0600<BR>
From: Jimmy Simpson <nimrod@santech.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Dolphins in Traveller<BR>
<BR>
At 06:25 PM 4/1/00 -0600, you wrote:<BR>
>     I've been trying to locate any canon Traveller books that deal with <BR>
> 'uplifted' dolphins. I think I've got the JTAS angle covered, but I don't <BR>
> have much in the way of MT or TNE material, so I don't know what's out <BR>
> there. Does anyone happen to know if there were any major supplements <BR>
> published that talk about them, or at least any supplements that mention <BR>
> them at all? Any help is appreciated, thanks.<BR>
><BR>
>- Kevin C. Carpenter<BR>
><mailto:kccarpenter@swbell.net>kccarpenter@swbell.net<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
I can't remember which issue (11-13) of Travellers' Digest that took place <BR>
on Earth, but I believe there was an article on them in that issue, as well <BR>
as they played a part in the adventure (terrorist dolphins blew apart the <BR>
dike around the Giza Pyramids).<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Jimmy Simpson<BR>
	nimrodd@fastlane.net<BR>
"Cannot say.<BR>
  Saying, I would know.<BR>
  Do not know.<BR>
  So cannot say."<BR>
		-Zathras (Babylon 5)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 02 Apr 2000 07:42:11 +0200<BR>
From: Ingo Heinscher <Hiroshi.Estigarribia@gmx.de><BR>
Subject: GT playtesting procedures<BR>
<BR>
HiI!<BR>
<BR>
I've heard a rumor that playtesting of GT materials is to be taken<BR>
loiterally, i.e. that it is merely commenting on parts of the<BR>
publicaztions-to-be, but no actual playtesting. Since I am not a Pyramid<BR>
subscriber, I simply don't know. <BR>
<BR>
Well, I like the results anyway, but it might happen one day that one of<BR>
the supplements is not as good as it could, if it is that way.<BR>
<BR>
Is it?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
"This was not meant to be an aggresssion against the Siru Zirka. But we had<BR>
to organize our affairs a bit more efficiently. To be honest, we have had<BR>
to do this for almost 300 years by now."<BR>
unknown Terran politician, -2398 Imp<BR>
;-) ingo heinscher <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2232<BR>
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Traveller-digest       Sunday, April 2 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2233



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Stellar Data question...
Re: New Madrid Fault
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2226
Re: GT playtesting procedures
Madoc Subsector: Starports
RE: Notes on building Heya
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2226
Re: Traveller 3D maps and Computers at the game table
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2226
Re: Association of Several Steves
Madoc Subsector: Personalities 

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2000 22:07:23 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Stellar Data question...

In mail you write:

>> people staying in space aboard a TL 6-7 orbital platform ("Mir") for
>>> periods of over a year. I see no problem supporting that many people
>>> for an extended period, especially with extra-system support. The
>>> general tech level may be TL 7, but given half-a-chance I would bet
>>> the life-support systems would be as advanced as the system could
>>> afford (TL 10-11 at least).
>>
>>I beg to differ. Life support is the *last* thing that you want to be
>>dependent of offworld support for.
>>
>
> For a world on a main in a high pop sector such a world might be only a week
> from a number of sources of TL10 items.

Try again.

Something goes wrong. *Assuming there's a ship available*, it'll take
the ship a week to get to *any* other system. Assuming that it takes
*no* time to find or load the parts, and to refuel the ship, it'lll be
*another* week before it gets back. 

That's two weeks *minimum*. Any kind of problem means further delay.
And while it isn't *likely*, what if the ship misjumps? Or there's no
ship in port, and no scheduled runs.

> Compare it to living anywhere on
> Earth now. A small town in the Midwest might be TL5 as far as local
> manufacture and the majority of local technology, but people's homes all
> have a TL7 computer, CD player or HDTV, all of which are made somewhere else
> and shipped into said town, from  places sometimes farther away (in time
> traveled) than a few parsecs.

But how many of those are *necessary*? How many will doom you to a slow
and painful death if they fail and you can't fix them.

Also, consider that it's been more than 50 years since there *was*
anywhere on Earth that was a two week round trip from needed supplies.
That is, there may have been such places, but they didn't *depend* on
outside supplies.

Assume you live in the Midwest. Say North Dakota. It's midwinter, the
drifts are 10 feet high. And your town loses power. 

Now picture the results if it takes AT LEAST *two weeks* to get *any*
outside aid. No air drops. No people on the phone or radio suggesting
ways of coping (of fixing the problem) that you may not have thought
of.

Of yeah, no way in *hell* do you have two weeks of fuel that can be
used *without* power.

Now, if you *know* this, you either *will* have supplies enough to keep
going at a lower TL until help arrives, or you'll make *damn* sure that
you can do a complete rebuild of the power plant with parts, tools and
skills on hand.

Given that for a reasonable large group of people (medium city?) life
support isn't actually "improved" all that much by higher TLs, and the
"lower" TL gear may actually be more reliable (ie plants, fish, etc
don't need a lot of monitoring, nor do they need super hi-tech pumps to
move the air & water)

> Now on the frontiers it might be a different story. I'm talking about the
> Core or Rim. I would expect that things like life support, computers,
> starship maintenance will all be at least at Imperial norm (which I believe
> is at GTL10).

Again, if the world can't re*build* it locally, they'll stick to life
support tech that they can. Even two weeks would be no picnic. A month?
I don't even want to *think* about it. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2000 22:08:45 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: New Madrid Fault

In mail you write:

> There is a truly horrid fiction book recently published that went
> into extremely melodramatic detail over what might happen if the
> fault let go again with the same severity. I think it may have
> originally been an attempt at a movie-of-the-week screenplay.

A lot of the "disaster of the week" type books are great for swiping
ideas from. One example, if you can find a copy is "The Day New York
Went Dry". It deals with what happens when an extended drought forces
New York City onto first water rationing, and then finally to trucking
in water for *essential* uses only...

It'd help give you ideas about what could happen on a world with very
limited water when the recycling breaks (or is sabotaged).

Another, I can recall the title of had a girl exposed to a dying
squirrel in California, and then take the train back to NYC. About a
week, the last part of which she spends sick in her sleeping
compartment. She thinks it's a cold.

She gets out at Grand Central Station, coughing as she makes her way
thru the crowds to her apartment. Where she dies. Of the disease she
got from the fleas on the squirrel, plague. Pneumonic plague. 

In the pneumonic form, plague concentrates on the lungs. And no longer
requires fleas to spread. It's *airborne*. Every time the infected
person coughs, they spread enough material to infect anyone within
*yards*.

Picture *that* in a high port, or world where the local air isn't
breathable. If the air system doesn't adequately filter or sterilize
air before returning it... you could wipe out the whole place.

That sort of thing could kill everyone on a ship even more easily. Go
into jump with a passenger with a "bad cold", and come out full of dead
bodies. 

Which is why when a ship comes out of jump, doesn't respond to radio,
and just drifts, the locals are *real* careful about checking it out.

Hmmm. Have some sort of malfunction on board the PC's ship. One that
knocks out the drive and radio. If they get dumb and fire on the ship
sent to check them out, the "obvious" conclusion is that a few infected
passengers are still alive and either delerious, or trying to keep from
being inspected until they can figure out the controls and try to land...

BOOM! Good-bye PCs. 

Or even more fun, they come out of jump, everything goes dead, except
they can hear a recording being played. It says that the ship is
carrying something nasty, please dump it in a star to prevent
infection. Supposedly from the captain of the ship, after realizing
that he'd become infected... 

Unless they can find the sabotage, they are going to die... :-)

And there are books involving plagues of animals, earthquakes, unusual
weather, etc. All suitable for inflicting on PCs.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2000 22:09:43 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2226

In mail you write:

>>That would have been tough. Metamorphosis Alpha was already out of print by
>>1980. Gamma World, 1st edition, was already 2 years old by that point, and
>>the second edition wouldn't be out for another three years.
>
> I was actually paraphrasing a later paragraph of the preface. Come
> to think of it I don't recall a 2nd edition MA so they may have shelved
> that plan.

Supposedly, TSR released "Metamorphosis Alpha to Omega" a few years
back (sometime after 90-92, asI quit going to my FLGS around then).

> And since I've lost the thread. The place for Gamma World is somewhere
> in the wilds in TNE. TTL 15 is a good fit for GW technology. And the
> mutations etc. are almost explainable as weird effects of Black War
> weapons. And of course lots of the robots are infected with virus.
> YMMV.

And the Warden is the result of Virus trying to infect a Generation
Ship it encountered....

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2000 22:09:59 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: GT playtesting procedures

At 7:42 AM +0200 4/2/00, Ingo Heinscher wrote:
>HiI!
>
>I've heard a rumor that playtesting of GT materials is to be taken
>loiterally, i.e. that it is merely commenting on parts of the
>publicaztions-to-be, but no actual playtesting. Since I am not a Pyramid
>subscriber, I simply don't know.
>
>Well, I like the results anyway, but it might happen one day that one of
>the supplements is not as good as it could, if it is that way.
>
>Is it?


No.

I've had playtest comments incorporated in the published
material.

______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2000 01:31:06 -0500
From: "Alvin" <aplummer@idirect.com>
Subject: Madoc Subsector: Starports

Madoc Subsector: Starports


[ This is intended as a colourful survey of the major
locally-run starports in Madoc.   I am assuming that, 
with a few exceptions, the Imperium owns at least one
starport on every Imperial world, usually the largest
and always the highest class in the system.  However,
several cities and minor worlds may run their own local
port.  Moreover, local governments, corporations, and
organizations can build their own ports as well. 

As an aside, the Imperium is also assumed to run 
many starports outside of it's borders, in allied or politically
important worlds.  My interpretation of Imperial ID is 
my own, and does not necessarily reflect canon.  Actually, 
I tend to treat canon as just a set of guidelines rather than 
hard-and-fast rules: You Have Been Warned.]


*********

Extracts from the chapter "My Luck in Madoc" 
from _Shelters from the Dark: Starports in Diaspora_
Sir Howe Pearson, IISS (ret.)
( Audio Novel, Non-interactive
Nouvelle Allure Publishing,
Libert/Libert/Diaspora, 1113 )
    

As a Scout, I *always* use the local starports rather than the 
Imperial Main Port - it gives me an instant read on what the 
local culture believes about itself, what face the planetary 
government wants to show to the Imperium, what kind if tech is 
locally available, how much money is swishing around.... After 
some experience, you can even get information from the architecture 
used, and the kind of paperwork the people give you to fill in!

<snip>

Now, take Jae-Bong Starport, on Kaesong.   Sure, the 
metal "flag" on the pole outside isn't the Imperial Starburst, but 
that's about the only *real* difference between this  A-class port
and any other solid, prosperous port in the Imperium. The 
blare of languages on the intercoms, astonished immigrants 
offworld for the first time, the hustle of merchants, wailing 
children, VIP's with their servants and aides trailing behind 
them, it's all here, real as life.

Kaesong is a micro-G, near-vacuum environment, so you can amuse 
yourself watching the offworld yokels try to get the hang of 
manuvering around without looking like a *complete* idiot.  As 
always, it's the kids who figure things out first, using the free small 
plasic "wings", hand-held airscrews (muscle-powered or electric), 
or just leap to the 5-meter high ceiling.  Watch out when they figure
out how to bounce around from wall to wall: twice here I got caught 
in a rain of small children rocketing through the air, seeing how fast 
they can fly off the walls.

Now, with most small-world, micro-G near-vacuum environments, 
you can just leave the starship in the HighPort while you yourself
head to the LowPort.  Unusually for a small A-class types, however,
Jae-Bong Starport actually has two *pressurized, breathable, 
shirt-sleeve* hangars on the world's surface available, capable 
of handling up to 500 disp tons of starship each.  I admit, it cost's 
a bundle to lease, but it greatly speed's up repair work: I never go
anywhere else in the subsector to fix up _my_ baby.

Most port's, naturally enough, look like buildings from the inside, 
with maybe a skylight or two and perhaps a small indoor garden. 
Kaesong, on the other hand, is a proud and high-tech world, the 
capital of the subsector, and the local government has spent 
a *lot* of money making certainl publicly accessible areas - mainly 
concessions and eateries  - look, feel,and smell as if you were 
walking outdoors in a pleasent meadow, rather than in a dome on 
a nearly-airless rock.  Factor in enough money to put a steady, 
1G pull in the "Green Grove" - and ignore the unusual curve in the 
"domed sky" - and the area is actually quite pleasant.

The inspiration for the place is *not* Terra or Vland, though,
but the "lost biosphere of Ilelish".  For those of you who
don't know your Imperial history, centuries ago Ilelish system 
once had a truly famous and impressive range of wildlife, but 
- - after evacuating the population - the planet was deliberately 
blasted into a sterile desert at the end of the Ilelish Revolt in 435.
For a loyal subsector capital world like Kaesong, it's an
_interesting_ selection.  But of course, Kaesong wasn't always
a loyal subsector capital...

<snip>

Two parsec's or so Rimward are the Vacare Systems - you know, 
those mystics that that Sylean writer... uhh, what's his name?  
Yeah, Odcicantah.  Odcicentath?  OK, *Odcic* then! Look, I was 
raised in Rim Anglic, I can't *handle* the long names!  Anyways, 
it's those mystics that Odcic was so enthralled about.  The largest 
port that they run is at NightVision, and it's got to be the most 
gorgeous port in the subsector.  I know people who skip right 
over the ho-hum Imperial Port, and land at Neustria Starport just 
for the eye candy!

The place from the air looks like a flawless temple, maybe one of 
those famous ones at Vland Sector or the early Roge shrines in 
Dagudashaag Sector.  The geometry, the colours, even the way 
the light hits the Ternstone blocks - it takes your breath away.

When you land there, everything is done in a even pace, gentle 
but efficent.  There is often local music in the air - not piped in, 
but actual singers and woodwinds playing in the port.  The place 
is at TL E, but the people use the technology, instead of the other 
way around.  There is the scent of incense in the air: different 
"flavours" are used, depending on a host of things: the time of 
day and year, if there is an honoured guest on the world, etc.

There are no native lifeforms on NightVision, but they managed 
to repair the old Vilani-style biosphere across the planet, and in 
the "food zones" they even have created thick layer of topsoil
( "The most valuable mineral in the Imperium", as the Ministry
of Colonization likes to put it. )  They often give a thimble of 
this valuable soil to visitors who arrive, and a small, handmade 
crystal sculpture, symbolizing the Void, to departing visitors.  
Yeah, I know: more tourist junk to toss.  Still, it might be a nice 
think to ship to a loved one: even if they're at the other side of the 
Imperium, it can't cost more than a few hundred credits....

Another thing is the range of sophonts on the system:
there is a good deal of Vacare believers who are nonhumans, 
about 2% or so of the population.  They have tended to congregate 
in starport operations, so about 50% of the employees here aren't 
human at all, but are instead from a range of species from Delphi and
Old Expanses Sectors.  If you aren't human, *this* is the world to 
base your operations in.

<snip>

Now, every Traveller knows that there is always at least *one* 
world in the subsector that is completely taken over by control freaks: 
Kelvin, way over at the Spinward-Trailing corner of the subsector - 
certainly fit's the bill.  And does the starport show it!  Bioscans, 
heat sensors, psi-scanners, everything that a xenophobic TL D 
culture can afford to install is at Rousseau Access Point - the 
locals refuse to call it a starport for some odd reason or another. 
All these checks are in case you are smuggling...well, I don't know if 
even the guards know what they are looking for, but whatever it is, 
make sure that you don't have it.  

As an experienced Traveller, you know that only people "In the 
Emperor's Service" carry Imperial ID.  This is mainly because trying to 
gather, keep up to date, and insure the accuracy of data on any larger
population - across interstellar distances and multiyear timeframes - is
simply laughable.  Even today, we still remember the rare (?) case
of an Imperial Army General who was declared dead in Antares Sector
twenty years ago.  Seventeen years after his supposed death, 
he was rediscovered living as a mercenary commander - AND 
collecting his pension - in the Marches just three years ago (and it 
took a year and a half for the news to reach Diaspora, incidentally.)

Unfortunately, nobody seems to have told the Community of
Reason on Kelvin that most people don't carry Imperial ID.  The local
Customs folk simply won't let you out of the starport if you don't have 
your Imperial ID card.  Now, that doesn't stop planetary traders from 
bringing their stuff *into* the starport for cross-shipping or pickup
by the locals, but it's a real bummer for more footloose Travellers, who
want to take a look around the place.

If you have the notation "IISS" on your Imperial  ID card, expect some 
serious bureaucratic hurdles just leaving the starport.  For some reason, 
they think that we are all spies ( with a bright red Imperial Starburst on 
my uniform shoulder and my right chest?  I Think Not! ).  Some Scouts 
manage to get a pass to leave the starport and see the world, some don't: 
it strictly depends on your people skills.

May I modestly add that *I* managed not only to leave the starport
whenever I wished, but the offical decided that I didn't even need a 
"Guide"?  Social engineering, people, social engineering!  Of course,
good looks and famous charm had absolutely *nothing* to do with it!

OK, back to the port.  The place is built like a set of concrete barracks,
and has enough troops to be one, so leave the toys back on the ship.
Well, most of them, anyway - The Guy's with the Gun's don't worry
about knives and other melee weapons.  This is mainly a cargo port,
so there just isn't much luxury available, but the place is kept clean
and reasonably efficent.  A good deal of traffic runs through the port,
including the rare, twice-a-year large freighter from the Solomani 
Confederation: the locals still have a sentimental attachment to that 
starnation, and devour's any news or entertainment goods from those
systems.  

I know what you're going to ask me: what about those billions
and billions of people, dreaming away in their WorkPods?  Well, you 
just don't see any of that in the local port: there is no great rush of
migrants trying to leave the world, and - besides the enormous amount
of medical equipment being shipped in - you couldn't know about the 
WorkPods by just looking around.  I might talk more about it, if enough
of you bother my publisher about it.

<snip>

OK, on to the last major, system-run port in the subsector: 
Tyrannus Starport.   This is a very *Ogadzi* port: almost everyone 
you see here is part of the same race, and the same Ismya Christian
faith.  What interesting as you come in is the fairly large percentage
of ships from the Ogadzi Diaspora, mainly from throughout Diaspora
Sector, with a very occasional representative from Alpha Crucis.  As the
Solomani dominate Alpha Crucis, it's harder for mixed-race Ogadzi to
obtain a starship there, but such feats have been known to happen.

You can tell that this is *not* your everyday starport right away.
At the spots where you usually would see a portrait of the Emperor or
the planetary leader, you see a granite plaque with these words
carved on it, in raised relief:

"Praise ye the Lord.  Sing unto the LORD a new song,
    and his praise in the congregation of saints.
Let Isreal rejoice in him that made him: 
    let the children of Zion be joyful in their King.
Let them praise his name in the dance: let them sing praises
    unto him with the timbrel and harp.
For the LORD taketh pleasure in his people: 
    he will beautify the meek with salvation.
Let the saints be joyful in glory: 
    let them sing aloud upon their beds.
Let the high praises of God be in their mouth,
    and a two-edged sword in their hand
To execute vengeance upon the heathen,
    and punishment upon the people;
To bind their kings with chains,
    and their nobles with fetters of iron;
To execute upon them the judgement written:
    this honour have all his saints.
Praise ye the LORD."
   - Psalm 149

Not exactly a gentle introduction, but it does get straight
to the point.  The port itself is built on the triangle/circle
motifs that the Ismya Christians so love, with the work sections
walled with an slightly shimmering silver-crimson metal.  
The passenger and public access areas are quite graceful if 
austure, with walls faced with expensive red marble with a 
band of Jerusalem limestone running along the middle of the 
wall, parallel to the smooth flagstones on the floor.  On the 
limestone is engraved numerous scenes of starport life: ships 
landing and departing, people meeting and hugging each other, 
cargo being auctioned, pickpockets being chased down, etc.

Most of the locals hold the Way of the Tyrant as an esthetic
that shapes their lives, their actions and their way of living:
the influence of the Way can be seen in local food, sports, phases,
etc.  In front of the starport, for example, that quote from Psalm
149 symbolises "Law", while the pictoral representations of the
starships represents "Duty".  If you look around, you can also
find portrayals of "Blood", "Water" and "Purity".

Now, I don't *look* Ogadzi, so right away I'm an outsider.  With the 
red Imperial Starbursts on my uniform, everyone shut's up when I 
enter a room, and wait's for me to leave or shifts to whisper mode.  
Eventually, a neatly dressed young man - followed by two large men 
who practically scream SECURITY - politely told me to either complete 
my business or leave, as this port is "not for tourists".

I could not spend much time in the port, as I always get hustled out the 
door and could barely get anywhere in the port without being stuck by
mysteriously locking doors, running into grim-faced Security men, or
having my way blocked by Ogadzi merchants with crossed arms.  I'm
sure that the only reason why I didn't have a gun pointed at me was
because of my uniform: but I'm also certain that if I had pressed hard 
enough they would have used their electric shockers, the nearest blunt 
instrument, or their fist's if worst comes to worst.  

If you start looking around you'll quickly notice that the people 
employed by Ogadzi starports are nearly exclusively *men* - the 
Ogadzi culture and the Ismya religion are definitely patriarchial 
structures, and the duty of women to raise their children well is 
expected to take precedence over other pleasures or employment.  
Moreover, starports are seen as dangerous areas ( from environmental 
risks to diseases to firefights among the passengers ): the lives of 
Ogadzi women are seen as less disposable then Ogadzi men's, so 
they are barred from employment there.  Nonhumans are allowed to 
work in Ogadzi starports as translators, guides, and vendors, but are 
kept away from the starships, the berths and hangers, and any other 
sensitive areas.  Interestingly, however, the janitorial and muscle
jobs are strictly reserved for Ismya believers (maybe as a form
of penance?)  

Interestingly, there is a good deal of traffic around, mainly in-system
commerce and emigration to seek out more opportunity elsewhere
in Diaspora.  It's mainly local free traders and the small local lines:
the larger Sectorwide-plus lines use the Imperial Starport instead.
Some of the local free traders are affilitated with one of the Church
Militant organizations - either openly or covertly - so I definitely
advise caution if you plan to do something of questionable legality 
here.



Alvin Plummer

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2000 01:36:11 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: RE: Notes on building Heya

> If 60 million people were growing enough food to feed 36 bilion people and
> selling it at a tiny markup, they would all be millionaires. The reason
why
> this does not happen is, IMO, that 60 million people cannon grow enough
> food to feed 36 billion people. YMMV.

My mileage certainly does vary. In the U.S., an astonishingly small amount
of people make enough food for the whole country, not to mention a healthy
export business to other countries. If I remember correctly, under 5% of
Americans are involved in farming. From what I understand, societies with
lower tech levels have to dedicate a larger segment of the population just
to feed themselves (around about 50% or so). I'm not sure what Traveller TL
this would happen at, exactly, because the decrease has been gradual over a
number of years.

Incidentally, the individual farmers of America aren't massively rich. It
costs a lot of money to transport all of that food, to buy fertilizers,
pesticides, and farming equipment. If the planet doesn't have a high tech
industrial base, lots of equipment and supplies will have to be imported.
That's not to say that profits wouldn't be made. On the contrary, there
would be a lot of money involved, and that's why I suspect one or more
megacorporations would be involved. The megacorps do have to make money
somehow, right?

Should your argument be applied to other areas? Should industrial planets
have their capabilities "cut" because they'd make too much money? If so, how
does anybody make any money in the Traveller universe?

>> Would it be reasonable to allow 100 people to be fed from each TL 5
farmer
>> under these conditions?
>
>It would take an unusually useful local plant, but why not? One, hopefully,
>that can't be transplanted to other worlds.

It wouldn't take an unusually useful local plant, just a lot of space and
decent growing conditions. Whether or not the plant can be transplanted to
other worlds is irrelevant. However, whether or not the populations of other
worlds have an interest, or the capabilities to farm, is.

>>if they were the sole source of food.  Given the huge (and stable) demand
>>for food, it would not be a stretch to assume that a large portion of
Heyans
>>are farmers,
>
>TL 5 is industrial technology. You need more than farmers to grow food. You
>need the whole underpinning of their society. Industrial workers,
educators,
>administrators, entertainers...

Not really. There are a number of low-tech societies in the real world that
seem to manage just fine by importing high-tech farming equipment and
supplies. If there is as much money involved as you seem to think, then
surely Heya would be able to import the best equipment and personnel to
train them in the use of that equipment, to repair it, and so on. This
wouldn't necessarily go hand in hand with an increase in the tech level of
the planet, for the obvious reason that this rating is somewhat abstract.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 02 Apr 2000 00:39:24 -0600
From: Jimmy Simpson <nimrod@santech.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2226

At 10:09 PM 4/1/00 -0800, Leonard Erickson wrote:

>Supposedly, TSR released "Metamorphosis Alpha to Omega" a few years
>back (sometime after 90-92, asI quit going to my FLGS around then).
I believe that was a rework released for their Amazing Engine(?) game system.


Jimmy Simpson
	nimrodd@fastlane.net
"Cannot say.
  Saying, I would know.
  Do not know.
  So cannot say."
		-Zathras (Babylon 5)

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2000 07:36:11 +0100
From: "Michael J Scanlon" <m.scanlon@talk21.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller 3D maps and Computers at the game table

- ----- Original Message -----
From: Ingo Heinscher <Hiroshi.Estigarribia@gmx.de>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com>
Sent: 31 March 2000 21:40
Subject: Re: Traveller 3D maps and Computers at the game table
> What is a "real time chart"?

what I mean by 'real time chart,' may or may not be like the universe as we
know at. SO there may be the option to use the star maps we have of the
universe as we know it, as a make shift unverse may be intergrated as we do
not know the full extent of the universe from the Earth. But the main point
for using real time, is as an abstract verb for a data base with all details
of stars and their planets with their moons and what ever else there is
floating in space which may have any bearing on what ever scenario one had
in mind.
> Well, on this, the movement of stars is relatively irrelevant. Most
> campaigns don't last centuries of game time, and still, speaking in
> interstellar dimensions, there is not much change to the astronomical
> coordinates of stars relative to each other, even over the centuries.

I totaly disgree. I believe the specific positioning of stars is important
due to their gravitation effect upon bodies of mass which come close enough
to have any effect upon. Having correct data of the postion of such bodies
of mass will be required for navigation through space.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2000 01:53:54 -0500
From: "J-Man" <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2226

You are correct Leonard.  The second version was released under "Amazing
Engines".
___________________________________________________________
 J-Man
 ICQ# 2843475
 New Hampshire - U.S.A.
 Email : j-man@iname.com
 Home Page : http://www.gocsystems.com/
___________________________________________________________

- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Leonard Erickson" <shadow@krypton.rain.com>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com>
Sent: Sunday, April 02, 2000 1:09 AM
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2226


> Supposedly, TSR released "Metamorphosis Alpha to Omega" a few years
> back (sometime after 90-92, asI quit going to my FLGS around then).
>

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 02 Apr 2000 00:50:56 -0600
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Association of Several Steves

I've misplaced my ASS membership card.
Where can I order a replacement?

Bloo (Steve Daniels)
Not the Steve Daniels who is on NBC Dateline
Not the Steve Daniels who runs a porn website


GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:

> In a message dated 00-04-01 07:15:28 EST, you write:
>
> << Unfortunately, according to the mail I received back in 1975 from someone
>  claiming to be his father, the English Steve Jackson died in a motorcycle
>  accident just before then, and his games died with him. >>
>
> Steve _Curtis_ was involved with the old west skirmish rules
>
> The English Steve Jackson is still alive, last I heard.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2000 01:55:27 -0500
From: "Alvin" <aplummer@idirect.com>
Subject: Madoc Subsector: Personalities 

Personalities of Madoc Subsector


There are a vast number of interesting sophonts in Madoc subsector,
both visitors and natives.  I will provide a couple of likely people,
generally leaders, moneymen, and warriors, who have been mentioned
in the subsector-wide news services.

One person I will NOT be detailing is Aracon M'Bec.  This man
resides on Diotrephes, a small, loose-living Kelvinite Christian
settlement near Tyrannus.  Besides mining, the other major economic
activity is "capitalizing on the celebrity of Aracon M'Bec, a local
programmer famous across two subsectors for his entertainment
modules (it's an acquired taste)".

Exactly *what* is on those modules, the history, personality and beliefs
of M'Bec, how much money he has, his friends and foes will be left to
the Referee to develop as he sees fit.  If he need's a bit of comic relief,
or wants to project a "voice" in Madoc subsector, that's what M'bec
is for.

**********************

Baron Sir Dieter von Hagedorn

An older pure Solomani man, who looks quite like the German aristocrat
to 20th century eyes.  A junior member of a minor noble family, he has
put in his time in one of the regular TL E Imperial regiments for the sake
of his family, and managed to earn a minor knighthood for valour and
clear thinking during an action.

After an additional ten-year stint as a rank Baron in the Imperial
government,
he has retired from service and is now part-owner of an anomaly: the large
(25,000 disp) independent liner, the _Imperator_, christened after the
nickname of his old regiment. Baron Sir von Hagedorn has limited starship
skills, but is a good, no-nonsense negotiator who brings in the better
class of customers.

He operates from Madoc because that's where the business is: there are
always a large group of  Ogadzi families moving to some Diaspora system
or another, and willing to pay in Imperial Credits or precious metals.  He
tends to view his Ogadzi customers with an amused contempt, and prefers
to associate with his kind of poeple, Imperial servants and wealthy,
nonOgadzi businessmen destined for the upper class cabins.

von Hagedorn is always worried about the possibility of a major Sector,
Domain or Imperial corporation moving into his routes, but so far no one has
tried to do so.   So far as he keep's his operation limited to one ship, he
should remain too small for the big boys to bother with.

**********************

Baroness Skiki Midaguraar

Yes, this is the cold-eyed Vilani Baroness who put down the Kelvin
rebellion in 1073.

Now at 182, she is getting old even by Vilani standards,
with a physical age of about 70 in Solomani terms.  In order to
insure a smooth succession, she is planning to abdicate soon in
favour of her fourth child, following Vilani tradition.  In the
meantime, she remains by far the most feared noble in the
subsector:   Solomani Imperial military personnel has been known
to imitate deep, mechanical breathing whenever she leaves the room.

As the Baroness of Kelvin sort's out her affairs, she has noted various
loose ends that need cleaning up, and is currently in the market of a group
of adventurers willing to do the necessary work.  The pay is expected
to be substantial, as would be the danger.  She can only offer limited
support, as her Imperial duties have first call on her Household
intelligence
and miliary resources.   As they are in the private employ of a noble,
they are definitely expected to obey the Imperial rules of war: how they
square this with what they are expected to accomplish is their problem.

As an employer, Baroness Skiki will demand excellence, and will be very
harsh, even cruel, if it is denied her. On the other hand, she does
appreciate
a record of success, and will be more willing to grant some tiny amount
of forgiveness for mistakes - but you had better earn the right to be
forgiven, first.

**********************

Sir Daniel Kim

The wealthiest single Ogadzi alive, Kim made his fortune and fame as a
corporate officer of Delgado, the Imperial Megacorporation.
After a long and eventful career in the military equipment division,
Kim was promoted to the position Chief Financial Officer over the entire
megacorporation in 1098.  During his tenure Kim placed the focus on
stabilising the financial accounts of the various corporate divisions,
but a sharp fall of the stock price in the Solomani Rim led to his ouster
in 1106.

Now retired on Tyrannus, Daniel Kim is a major voice of moderation
in the Ogadzi councils.  He is openly proImperial, and believes that
the Imperium would be better off if it joined the Ismya religion.  As leader
of the Sir Daniel Kim Contact Group, he is attempting to persuade the local
religious and political leadership that the Faith is best served by a strong
Imperium, and one of the best ways to put the Faith to work is for the
Tyrannus political leadership to accept noble titles and join the Imperium
in spirit, not just in law.  That way, they can shape the Imperial Law to
match
Divine Law, strengthening both legal systems.

While some people agree with his thinking, other Tyranni aristocrats
want to insure that it's the Imperium that bends to the will of the Faith,
and not the other way around.  However, everyone agrees with the
goals: the only question is the methods.  Most likely, a variety of
tools will be tried, with the most sucessful getting more and more funding.

In the meantime, the Sir Daniel Kim Contact Group continues to expand
across Diaspora space, providing humanitarian and other non-military
support to Ogadzi communities, promoting the growth of the Ismya
Christian faith, and funding studies and research that show how to meet
long-term Ogadzi goals.

**********************

Urgi Shedimiirsimar, ex-Imperial Marine

Another pure-blood Vilani, 142 years old, but physically in his
early 50's.   A walking military legend, he has been in the fighting
ranks of the Imperial Marines for 120 years, signing on at the age of 15.
Urgi and is among the very few sophonts alive today who took part in
the largest single battle in the history of  humaniti, the Invasion of Terra
in 1002.

Among the Vilani Marines, he is pratically a living archetype
of both the best Vilani fighting man and the glory of being a Marine.
While his battle skills are just starting to decline due to physical age,
they are still so high as to be apparently supernatural: and he continues
to train, just like always.

Currently, he is working with Imperial intelligence services as a
consultant regarding the physical protection of an Imperial Family
Member, as he or she crosses Diaspora.  It's *highly* unlikely that
they would enter Madoc subsector - but the knowledge Urgi has
can be applied anywhere.  In the meantime, he remains Arrikesh's most
famous son, even though he hasn't seen home in a long, long time.

*********************

Baron Joshua Tauri

Baron Joshua - a pure Solomani noble - is only 23 years old, but has
succeeded in a very difficult task: uniting the world of Nephilim under
his noble banner.  As theocratic a Christian as the Nephilim could desire,
his faith actually stems from the Brotherhood of the Cross, rather than
the Ismya denomination.  However, they are quite similar in both
doctrine and their aggression, and Baron Joshua plans to publically
convert to Ismya Christianity in 1120.

When the local Nephilim fractions agreed to direct Noble rule in
1105, they explictly insisted that the noble be a Solomani and a devout
Christian.  It took a while for the Office of Noble Arms to find someone
who matched the requirements, *and* be relied on to support the Imperial
government, but in 1109 selected the youngest child of House Tauri,
12-year old Joshua, to rule the system.

[ According to Imperial tradition, adulthood is reached upon puberty,
although "strong family oversight" can be administered until age 18.  ]

When the locals saw who was sent to rule the system, the majority
promptly began ignoring his authority, believing that the child would be
a weak ruler, unwilling to shed blood.  They were wrong, as the Imperial
garrison demonstrated time and time again.  After 1111, the locals were
willing to cut a deal, but Baron Joshua had no interest in deals: he had
already lost family members to the locals and their silly racial divisions,
and his ONLY desire was to break all resistance to his rule - not in the
name of the Emperor, not in his own name, but in the name of Jesus Christ.
He was given expert Imperial advice on how to do so, and by 1115 there
is simply no resistance anymore.

Currently, Baron Joshua is currently searching for a suitable mate from
the local elite to marry:  he also plans to change the government from
an Impersonal Bureaucracy to something like the Civil Service on
Mashad or Ogodza.  Now that the starport is up to C-class and there is a
functioning economy again, he can start repaying favours that he owes
certain other noble houses, and squeeze out the best deal from investors
who want to be part of the rebirth of a planet.

************************

Madeline de Clark

de Clark is the senior executive of Makhidkarum operations
in Madoc subsector.  As one of the few Solomani leaders in
this Vilani megacorporation, she feels that she is continually
being judged and measured, but instead of grumbling about
it, she uses it as a prod to spur her on to greater acomplishments.

Mainly focused on communications and entertainment,
Makhidkarum has shaped it's offerings to meet the subsector
culture, and prospered very nicely in doing so.  The people
under her are mainly locals, who understand what makes great
entertainment, and can successfully manage to walk the
tightrope of religious artistry that inspires, not offends, and yet
does not come off as bland, insipid, or trite.  A large amount of
good-will has been created by the company, which partly rubs
off on the Imperium itself.

de Clark is aware of her political importance, but believes that
there is still a way to generate yet more profit: moreover, she has
a mandate to reach all the Madoc cultures, not just the Ogadzi.
So quietly, she has started to act as an exporter for Vacare goods
and artwork, and has also initiated a pilot project to produce
domestic propaganda for the Kelvin government.   To balance it out,
she also is working with the Ogadzi on the best methods to propagate
the Faith throughout Diaspora: Makhidkarum has been working in
the sector since First Imperium times, and is more than willing to
place it's experience to work for the Faith - for a respectable fee,
of course.

********************

Marco Zedong

Zedong is the head of Tuleon AgriCorp LIC, the corporation
that owns the planet Macedonia.  An astute business leader,
his risky purchase of the system in 1095 has been a major sucess
story, sending Tuleon stock smashing through the roof, and himself
a very rich man.  As smart a politican as a corporate leader,
he has also in a mere 15 years (1095 - 1110) increaced the system's
TL from B to C - and actually turn out a profit by doing so.
The only major government problem remains Baron Marciano,
who - with his concubines - is still holed up in the starport,
preventing it's upgrade from E to C-class as the traffic demands.
Instead, the port has grown to take up more and more room,
making it absolutely enormous.

Zedong has petitioned Emperor Strephon to remove Marciano's
noble title, and shift it to himself instead.  Zedong has built up a lot
of support in the subsector Moot, and the Emperor is expected to
make the change... when he finds the time.  Until then, he's stuck
with the Baron, who refuses to just Go Away.

In the meanwhile, Zedong has a business to run.  He's a leader of
a strong and successful company, and doesn't care to put the
reputation of Tuleon at risk with illegal acts.  His system's
largest customer, Tyrannus, is quite satisfied with the goods
and has more than enough money to pay for them.  However,
Zedong has remarkably little information on the other major
agricultural worlds in the subsector - the small and isolated system
of Mashad and the larger and more formidable system of
NightVision, at the other side of the subsector. He could use a
little help in obtaining additional information on his major
competitors in the subsector market.  Preferably with as little
fuss or bother as possible, and without starting armed hostilities.

***************************

Captain Sir Mario Miastkowski

"The last time I gave an interview they told me to just relax and say
what I really felt.  Ten minutes after the broadcast I got transferred to
an outpost so far off the starmaps you couldn't find it with a hunting
dog and an oujia board."              - Sheridan, Babylon-5

Captain of the ISS Imperial Wrath, a 120,000 disp TL C warship
and the flagship of the Madoc Subsector Colonial Fleet.  This is a
deep disgrace for a classic Big Ship man, who had spent his
entire career as an officer on battleships and dreadnoughts.

His transfer from Ley ("The Most Boring Sector in the Imperium")
to wealthy Diaspora lifted his spirits to stratospheric levels, and he
was certain to get a plump command.  So when a local Diaspora network
asked his opinion on how to improve the readiness of Fleet forces,
he cheerfully gave them a earful, certain that his comments would be
with discretion by the reporters, just like they would in Ley.

Ooops.

Oh, Captain Miastkowski got his big ship all right - after being
transferred to a *Colonial* Navy, "to help with all that readiness
you were so interested about".  The IN didn't want to waste his
experience with big ships, so they gave him the _Imperial Wrath_,
good enough to handle any local problems, but *not* the kind
of ship he was aiming for.  Currently, the Captain is half-way to
tendering his resignation - his career is shot anyways, his pension
is locked in, but he hates to leave a job undone.

***************************
Captain Carl Schwarzchild

Born and raised in the Solomani Rim, Captain Schwarzchild
spend most of his career in a planetary navy, as one of the
officers of a variety of small SDB's, eventually rising to command
one at the end of his career.  Now, he finds employment as a
local starmerc-for-hire, providing cadre training for various
Ogadzi navies.

On one of his tickets, he heard a rumour of a long-lost yacht from
Kelvin, somewhere in deep orbit around Macedonia's primary,
which holds a photoengraving of General Jimmy Madoc.  This
general created the first local interstellar government, during the
fall of the Rule of Man.  *IF* the photoengraving could be found,
it would be literally priceless: but the yacht has been lost for
120 years, and many seekers has turned up empty-handed.

Captian Schwarzchild understands that there is something
politically sensitive about the man, but as a foreigner he doesn't
understand just how much the locals adore the Madoc dynasty.
His place in local history is something like a combination of
Alexander, Julius Caeser,and King Arthur: and the government
holding the photoengraving would be able to use it as a political
proxy, implying that *they* have the blessing of the great President,
and that system's government is the rightful leader of the subsector.

 **********************

Major Isaiah Lee

Major Lee is the leader of St. Michael's Legions, one of the more
powerful Church Militant groups.  While not the largest group,
it does directly own two 300-disp TL C patrol ships, capable of
Jump3, and has the affiliation of three Ogadzi free traders as well.

The traders are usually, well, trading: with the financial support
of the Diaspora and a little help from Ogadzi governments and
private societies, they can provide a little transportation and cover
for two month's of the year, or be chartered out for longer voyages
(half the cost upfront, please).  The patrol boats spend three years
of every four earning their keep, fighting pirates and patrolling
space under contract to various governments, Ogadzi or otherwise.
Every fourth year, however, they get to fight for the Faith, anywhere
in Diaspora or - with much less support - in Alpha Crucis space.

There is also a less-famous mercenary cadre arm.  For a reasonable
fee (often much lower than cost, with the extra financing thrown in by
private Ogadzi societies), they provide basic and specialized training
for Ogadzi believers throughout Diaspora and Alpha Crucis.  In
Solomani space, the cadre arm operated with extreme discretion: no
need to get the Solomani excited about military training and
weaponry for half-breeds....

Recently, Major Lee led a Legion unit into a sharp little firefight in
Solomani territory, against people they had NO business messing
with.  Major Lee did pray for his unit, but fully expected to lose a
third of his men, minimum.  Somehow they managed to squeak out
a victory, but the real surprise was that there were _no_ Legion
casualities.  None. Not even a sprained ankle, or a scraped knee.

Now, Major Lee has heard of Divine Grace happening to other people,
but has never seen it himself in the field.  He has seen gruesome
friendly fire incidents, his friends drowning in their own blood, and
what the most gentle man with a gun can do if he get's *really* angry,
but he never saw pure Grace until that day.

So on the free trader, on it's long journey back to Madoc, he asked God
what He wanted with a poor soldier like him.  Why, after all the brutal
things he has seen and done, did God show him His Grace?  What did
he do to deserve this?  What was God trying to say?  He went on and on
in his prayers, in every spare moment he had, for four days.

And on the fourth day, late in the night cycle, God told him why.



Alvin Plummer

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2233
***********************************

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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2234</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
Date:	4/2/00 2:57:04 AM Pacific Daylight Time<BR>
From:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
Sender:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
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Traveller-digest       Sunday, April 2 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2234<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
RE: Notes on building Heya<BR>
Re: RS<BR>
Re: GT playtesting procedures<BR>
Madoc subsector: The Ismya Vilani<BR>
Re: GT playtesting procedures<BR>
Re: Association of Several Steves<BR>
Re: RS<BR>
Re: Traveller 3D maps and Computers at the game table<BR>
GT:Starports<BR>
Re: RS<BR>
RE: Starports<BR>
Re: Trading in Danger<BR>
More Ochetate Stuff<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2000 01:55:50 -0500<BR>
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net><BR>
Subject: RE: Notes on building Heya<BR>
<BR>
>A high-population world HAS to be able to support itself.<BR>
<BR>
Says who? There are "high population" countries in the real world that<BR>
couldn't support themselves if they tried.<BR>
<BR>
> The amount of shipping you'd need to import enough to support a billion<BR>
people is<BR>
> staggering.<BR>
<BR>
The import / export business here on earth is pretty staggering (and a lot<BR>
more expensive, in a very real sense, since we don't have transports that<BR>
are fueled as cheaply as starships can be in Traveller). I don't think that<BR>
there's any reason to believe it can't be done, it just means that there are<BR>
a heck of a lot of big ships. I don't think that's terribly unreasonable.<BR>
<BR>
> That's doesn't mean such a couldn't pay to import a bit of luxury food<BR>
like<BR>
> grain. But they don't HAVE to.<BR>
<BR>
Unless a society is made up of people who are all farmers who eat only what<BR>
they can grow, *all* food is imported from "somewhere else". In a laissez<BR>
fair environment like the Imperium, if it's profitable, somebody or other<BR>
*will* do it.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2000 03:10:42 -0400<BR>
From: "J-Man" <j-man@iname.com><BR>
Subject: Re: RS<BR>
<BR>
What in the hell is his problem?  This guy has to be the biggest 'ass' I've<BR>
ever heard of.<BR>
___________________________________________________________<BR>
 J-Man<BR>
 ICQ# 2843475<BR>
 New Hampshire - U.S.A.<BR>
 Email : j-man@iname.com<BR>
 Home Page : http://www.gocsystems.com/<BR>
___________________________________________________________<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: "Jeff Zeitlin" <jzeitlin@cyburban.com><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Saturday, April 01, 2000 8:28 PM<BR>
Subject: Re: RS<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
> I seem to recall that someone did, and posted the conclusion of<BR>
> their exchange here.  Roger <spit> 's final response was, as I<BR>
> recall, basically a polite version of "F*** off, it's not going<BR>
> to happen, and if you ask me again it's going right into the bit<BR>
> bucket."  Given that, I'd not be surprised if nobody tried again.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2000 03:18:53 EDT<BR>
From: JFZeigler@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: GT playtesting procedures<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 4/2/00 1:48:58 AM Eastern Daylight Time, <BR>
Hiroshi.Estigarribia@gmx.de writes:<BR>
<BR>
> I've heard a rumor that playtesting of GT materials is to be taken<BR>
>  loiterally, i.e. that it is merely commenting on parts of the<BR>
>  publicaztions-to-be, but no actual playtesting. Since I am not a Pyramid<BR>
>  subscriber, I simply don't know. <BR>
<BR>
The degree to which the playtest is effective is very dependent on<BR>
how involved the author is and how much time there is to make<BR>
substantive changes.  Both of those have fallen though on some<BR>
of the GT books, IMHO.  Yes, including _First In_ -- I tried to get<BR>
as much out of the playtest as possible but there just wasn't *time*.<BR>
<BR>
Things are much better now than on the first few books, though.<BR>
Meanwhile, I don't know of a single book in the line that hasn't<BR>
benefitted to some extent from playtester comments.<BR>
<BR>
- ----------<BR>
Jon F. Zeigler: Mathematician, computer geek, amateur historian, freelance<BR>
writer, occasional scribbler of bad poetry<BR>
"For any statement, no matter how innocuous, there exists a nonempty<BR>
set of people who will take offense at it."<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2000 03:36:58 -0400<BR>
From: "Alvin" <aplummer@idirect.com><BR>
Subject: Madoc subsector: The Ismya Vilani<BR>
<BR>
Madoc Subsector: The Ismya Vilani<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Essentially, this is a "Culture Clash" article,<BR>
on Vilani converts to Ismya Christianity.  It's an attempt<BR>
to 'get into' the Vilani mind, and see what things would<BR>
a Vilani find attractive about such an uncompromising<BR>
religion, what things are rather distasteful, and what<BR>
things are just plain weird and incomprehensible to<BR>
the Vilani mind.<BR>
<BR>
Of course, it goes without saying that the Vilani<BR>
converting to Christianity are usually marginal members<BR>
of the Vilani community, anyway's: 'converting' means<BR>
*change*, the greatest possible perversion in most<BR>
Vilani thought.  On the other hand, those disgustingly<BR>
innovative Terrans *did* win the Interstellar Wars, and *did*<BR>
dominate the government of the Second and Third Imperia:<BR>
maybe their spirituality was actually somehow more older,<BR>
more in tune with The Way Things Should Be than Vilani<BR>
faiths?   Vilani thinking may change very slowly, but<BR>
it does change....<BR>
<BR>
***** Origins: Spread of the Faith *****<BR>
<BR>
One of the more intertesting future developments is the spread<BR>
of the Ismya Faith, as a seperate force from the Ogadzi race.  For<BR>
most of history, Ismya Christianity was an ethnic religion: offically<BR>
it applied to all humans, but in reality the Ogadzi kept it to<BR>
themselves.<BR>
<BR>
However, with the rise of the Ogadzi Diaspora, this started to<BR>
change.   First, the Ogadzi - unwilling to hide in their enclaves<BR>
forever - started to openly interact with the society surrounding<BR>
them.  Finding the local cultures abhorrent, they promptly<BR>
started trying to change it, from establishing charities to sending<BR>
out missionaries.   Because of their unfortunate experiences with<BR>
State power (both on Tyrannus and in the Diaspora), they placed<BR>
a low  priority on political lobbying or governmental subsidies &<BR>
preferences: they instead worked to build an entire alternative<BR>
society from the bottom up, with it's foundation in the supremacy<BR>
of the Christian God, rather than membership in the Ogadzi race.<BR>
<BR>
While many are willing to use the charitable services provided, only<BR>
a few has actually converted to the Faith.  However, the new Ismya<BR>
outlook is already shaping Diaspora intellectual thought, and - as<BR>
Ogadzi wealth is invested in wealth-generating projects, instead of<BR>
non-productive things like guns and bombs and bunkers - are also<BR>
growing in influence economically as well.  Of course, economic<BR>
power brings out jealousies, as well as political pull.<BR>
<BR>
***** Ismya Christianity and the Vilani *****<BR>
<BR>
[Here, the term "Vilani" includes both cultural and racial members ]<BR>
<BR>
Interestingly the Diasporan Vilani - of all people - look to be the<BR>
most likely to start formally joining the Ismya faith.<BR>
<BR>
"So you're saying that there is this invisible, all-powerful ruler -<BR>
something like the Shadow-Emperors - who rules all the stars.<BR>
He never changes, his law never changes, and he fixes the destiny<BR>
of everyone before they are born.  And he understands the<BR>
occasional need for killing *all* of the enemy, and enslaving<BR>
those who refuse to pay their financial debts.<BR>
<BR>
Are you sure that this is a Solomani God?"<BR>
 - Ligu Shushakakhan, Vilani community leader,<BR>
 Erobi/Diaspora<BR>
<BR>
The Vilani have never liked changing anything, but they've<BR>
been known to make some alterations, if placed under immense<BR>
pressure.  In general, the Vilani prefer to obey the rituals and<BR>
worship the ancestors as they have done for millennia, and never<BR>
cared to change the basic beliefs.  After all, religions and ideologies<BR>
define the very essence of what a culture is, after all: to change<BR>
*that* is to change everything.<BR>
<BR>
The Vilani are generally turned off by Solomani religions & most<BR>
of their ideologies: too moralistic, too unstable, too idealistic,<BR>
too individualistic, too much of a radical change of what they<BR>
have always done.  They want something practical, something old<BR>
beyond imagining, something with a rich heritage of ritual and<BR>
ceremony.<BR>
<BR>
The closest Solomani religion that fits the bill is Vilani Rite Imperial<BR>
Catholicism.  With a mix of Catholic and Vilani writings, rituals, and<BR>
theologies, it's usually the only Solomani religion the Vilani are even<BR>
willing to consider converting to.<BR>
<BR>
The Vilani have never cared about whether something is right or wrong,<BR>
just on if it's efficent or wasteful, traditional or innovative.   What the<BR>
Ismya missionaries insist is that doing what is right, _in the long term_,<BR>
gives wealth and power to those who do it: slowly but surely in current<BR>
history, and also in eternity as the Children of God rule for all time.<BR>
<BR>
Moreover, doing what is right is _traditional_, following the laws God<BR>
wrote first in the fabric of creation, then more clearly in the ancient<BR>
writings of the Bible, especially Moses.  All the traditions of men<BR>
are mere corruptions and self-deceptions, compared to the First<BR>
Traditions which, naturally, originate from Terra.  The Ogadzi<BR>
missionaries cheerefully point out that even the tiny tribe that gave<BR>
us these traditions from God still endure as a sign, while much more<BR>
powerful and dominant nations has faded into the dust.<BR>
<BR>
The Vilani are quite comfortable with multi-generational planning,<BR>
and admire the protections the Pentateuch gives to property.<BR>
They are uncomfortable with "The same law shall apply to<BR>
the native as to the stranger who sojurns among you" (Ex. 12:49),<BR>
as the Vilani like to discriminate on the basis of culture: still,<BR>
as the Law allows only believers to hold judicial, executive and<BR>
legislative positions in government, it isn't too bad.  And you<BR>
don't get a more stable law code than the Moasic: the last revisions<BR>
were done 5700 years ago, and it's heretical to modify what now exists.<BR>
<BR>
[ The Vilani, of course, just *adore* stability... ]<BR>
<BR>
The Vilani are used to bureaucratic orders, to always ask permission<BR>
before they do anything.  With the Mosaic code, as long as you obey<BR>
the known, unchanging law you can do whatever you want, including<BR>
_set up your own bureaucracy and organizations, to manage your own<BR>
affairs_.  Such a possibility greatly appeals to all Vilani, especially the<BR>
more aggressive and dominant Vilani in society.<BR>
<BR>
The Ismya religion requires belief in a recent creation, something<BR>
that the Vilani have no great problems with.   Every Vilani has their<BR>
favourite list of things that Those Disgusting Scientific Researchers<BR>
Got Wrong, and it wouldn't surprise them in the least if they got the<BR>
origin of the universe wrong, as well.  As always, the Tradition come<BR>
first - and if they are going to follow the Christian traditions, then they<BR>
might as well follow the oldest Christian traditions there is.<BR>
<BR>
The pro-Ismya Vilani are fairly comfortable in changing Vilani traditions:<BR>
the things that *they* believe are fixed for all time is Divine traditions,<BR>
also known as the Law.  For example, they would say that...<BR>
<BR>
"For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of<BR>
men..." Mark 7:8a<BR>
<BR>
...illustrates the place of Divine Law as a better Universal<BR>
Standard than the Vilani culture of the Ziru Sirka, a "supertradition"<BR>
that can be enforced across all human cultures, like the old High<BR>
Vilani Culture used to be, but better.  Many Vilani recoil at this<BR>
verse, and stop listening right then: others want to know why the<BR>
commandments of an unknown God should supersede traditions<BR>
that have served the Vilani well for thousands of years.<BR>
<BR>
What disturbs the Vilani more are verses like Psalms 51:16-17,<BR>
<BR>
"For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it:<BR>
thou delightest not in burnt offering.  The sacrifices of God<BR>
are a broken spirit: a broken and contrite heart, O God, thou<BR>
wilt not despise."<BR>
<BR>
Most Vilani don't know what a "broken spirit" is, but don't like the<BR>
sound of it at all.  Others can't understand why a spiritual<BR>
deity would reject sacrifices: aren't they following the rituals in<BR>
the way tradition demands?  The Vilani who most love/fear<BR>
this God are busy devouring old writings to find out what the<BR>
Christian ancients thought about this command: a few are even<BR>
on Terra, looking for rare manuscripts that pre-date the<BR>
Interstellar Wars for clues.<BR>
<BR>
In any case, the first trickle of a flood of converts is just starting<BR>
to arrive in 1120.  By 1150 - assuming no great political disaster<BR>
strikes - there will be more Vilani believers of Ismya Christianity<BR>
than Ogadzi believers: this will have interesting consequences<BR>
as the religion expands across the Sector.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Alvin Plummer<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 02 Apr 2000 01:56:13 -0600<BR>
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: Re: GT playtesting procedures<BR>
<BR>
JFZeigler@aol.com wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> In a message dated 4/2/00 1:48:58 AM Eastern Daylight Time,<BR>
> Hiroshi.Estigarribia@gmx.de writes:<BR>
> <BR>
> > I've heard a rumor that playtesting of GT materials is to be taken<BR>
> >  loiterally, i.e. that it is merely commenting on parts of the<BR>
> >  publicaztions-to-be, but no actual playtesting. Since I am not a Pyramid<BR>
> >  subscriber, I simply don't know.<BR>
> <BR>
> The degree to which the playtest is effective is very dependent on<BR>
> how involved the author is and how much time there is to make<BR>
> substantive changes.  Both of those have fallen though on some<BR>
> of the GT books, IMHO.  Yes, including _First In_ -- I tried to get<BR>
> as much out of the playtest as possible but there just wasn't *time*.<BR>
> <BR>
> Things are much better now than on the first few books, though.<BR>
> Meanwhile, I don't know of a single book in the line that hasn't<BR>
> benefitted to some extent from playtester comments.<BR>
<BR>
Naturally, Jon knows _much_ more about SJG playtest procedures than I do<BR>
(with GT: First In and GT: Rim of Fire under his belt).  However, as an<BR>
active playtest participant in two GT products to date (GT: Imperial<BR>
Navy [currently on hold], and GT: Rim of Fire [the Solomani Rim book,<BR>
currently still in playtest]), I have at least seen how the process<BR>
works from the user point of view.<BR>
<BR>
Pyramid subscribers have access to the playtest message board for the<BR>
product in question.  The materials are available online in both text<BR>
and HTML format.  Once the interested playtesters have had a chance to<BR>
read the drafts, they can post comments.  It looks a lot like a<BR>
moderated Usenet newsgroup.  In the GT: RoF playtest, for instance, Jon<BR>
has gently steered drifting threads back on-topic.<BR>
<BR>
One of the interesting aspects of a GT playtest is that there seem to be<BR>
two basic types of participant:  players who are primarily Traveller<BR>
fans, and players who are primarily GURPS fans.  There is some overlap,<BR>
but there does seem (from my perspective, anyway) to be such a<BR>
dichotomy.  Quite a few playtest comments come from active TMLers (we<BR>
seem to serve as "canon guardians").<BR>
<BR>
Bear in mind also that Pyramid subscribers are allowed to download text<BR>
files, and print out a _single hardcopy_ [emphasis added] for personal<BR>
use.  Presumably, those playtesters who are currently involved in GT<BR>
campaigns can introduce the draft materials in their campaigns, and see<BR>
how they work out.<BR>
<BR>
Finally, while my knowledge of the gaming industry is spotty at best, I<BR>
don't know of any company other than SJG that uses such a broad base of<BR>
playtesters (as of a few days ago, Pyramid had reached the 3500<BR>
subscriber mark, all of whom are eligible to playtest SJG products).<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 02 Apr 2000 03:00:48 -0500<BR>
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Association of Several Steves<BR>
<BR>
Steve Daniels wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> I've misplaced my ASS membership card.<BR>
<BR>
<tongue-in-cheek><BR>
<BR>
Have you tried looking in a hole in the ground?<BR>
<BR>
</tongue in cheek><BR>
<BR>
(Sorry, couldn't resist.)<BR>
<BR>
<<snip>><BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 02 Apr 2000 09:53:05 +0200<BR>
From: Ingo Heinscher <Hiroshi.Estigarribia@gmx.de><BR>
Subject: Re: RS<BR>
<BR>
At 03:10 02.04.00 -0400, J-Man wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>What in the hell is his problem?  This guy has to be the biggest 'ass' I've<BR>
>ever heard of.<BR>
<BR>
Wh? Because there is someone who claimed that he had talked to him and<BR>
wasn't satisified with the answer? I have the impression (and it seems to<BR>
be logical to me) that Loren has had some talks with Roger. Or is planning<BR>
to have. No one is helped by spitting on a person who's got the rights for<BR>
many of Traveller's best publications (as I read here). If we want so see<BR>
that stuff republished, we *need* to talk to him. Preferably without<BR>
insulting him, since the chance of achieving anything is thus far bigger.<BR>
<BR>
BTW: It may be the case that the rights to the DGP stuff is the only thing<BR>
vaulable that this guy has. Since he opbviously keeps changing ISP's and is<BR>
in trouble to pay some bills, well, isn't it understandable that he tries<BR>
to get some money out of his possesions? I mean, this is the beginning of<BR>
the 21st century. It's a market economy on this planet, and we all have to<BR>
make a living.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
"This was not meant to be an aggresssion against the Siru Zirka. But we had<BR>
to organize our affairs a bit more efficiently. To be honest, we have had<BR>
to do this for almost 300 years by now."<BR>
unknown Terran politician, -2398 Imp<BR>
;-) ingo heinscher <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 02 Apr 2000 09:44:48 +0200<BR>
From: Ingo Heinscher <Hiroshi.Estigarribia@gmx.de><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller 3D maps and Computers at the game table<BR>
<BR>
At 07:36 02.04.00 +0100, Michael J Scanlon wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>what I mean by 'real time chart,' may or may not be like the universe as we<BR>
>know at. SO there may be the option to use the star maps we have of the<BR>
>universe as we know it, as a make shift unverse may be intergrated as we do<BR>
>not know the full extent of the universe from the Earth. But the main point<BR>
>for using real time, is as an abstract verb for a data base with all details<BR>
>of stars and their planets with their moons and what ever else there is<BR>
>floating in space which may have any bearing on what ever scenario one had<BR>
>in mind.<BR>
<BR>
Mh. Our original problem was not using which data, but how to dislay the<BR>
data. Of course, you can use real time information. But how will you show<BR>
the players the maps? Simple columns of numbers don't add much flavour.<BR>
Leonard's opinion was that you could easily use a computer at the game<BR>
tabel for that purpose, or what he deems even better, a 3D model of a<BR>
section of space. My POV was that using paper in some way would be more<BR>
desireable, but less easily doable.<BR>
<BR>
We used "cubes" because if you use a *map* instead of a row of numbers, you<BR>
have to display  a limited number of starts to get any useful information<BR>
out of the map. Just as you can have a map of the world or a map of Kassel,<BR>
Germany.<BR>
<BR>
>> Well, on this, the movement of stars is relatively irrelevant. Most<BR>
>> campaigns don't last centuries of game time, and still, speaking in<BR>
>> interstellar dimensions, there is not much change to the astronomical<BR>
>> coordinates of stars relative to each other, even over the centuries.<BR>
<BR>
>I totaly disgree. I believe the specific positioning of stars is important<BR>
>due to their gravitation effect upon bodies of mass which come close enough<BR>
>to have any effect upon. Having correct data of the postion of such bodies<BR>
>of mass will be required for navigation through space.<BR>
<BR>
You do need the exact *position* (within the game universe). Of course. But<BR>
you do not need to know here the stars *will* be in 10 000 years. Since the<BR>
players won't see their characters observe it, mostly. What you possibly<BR>
need is the positions of your stars in the past, but that is something that<BR>
can sinply be ruled out for the required periods.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
"This was not meant to be an aggresssion against the Siru Zirka. But we had<BR>
to organize our affairs a bit more efficiently. To be honest, we have had<BR>
to do this for almost 300 years by now."<BR>
unknown Terran politician, -2398 Imp<BR>
;-) ingo heinscher <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2000 09:31:40 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: GT:Starports<BR>
<BR>
Hi all,<BR>
<BR>
I just picked up my copy of GT Starports and I am impressed. The <BR>
staff at the local FLGS were going on about how good the cover <BR>
looked, which prompted some questions/observations:<BR>
<BR>
1) Obviously, I know who the two scouts in the background are, but <BR>
who are the others? Is Jesse on the front page?<BR>
<BR>
2) I love the pictures throughout - both Glenn and Jesse have made <BR>
this look more Traveller than ever before.<BR>
<BR>
3) There are some gorgeous hints at the plot line Loren has in store <BR>
for us - 'Dulinor' being used in a poker game using information <BR>
rather than money, and the GLAIVE - GUISARME hint about the <BR>
non-existent Research Station 2197 (Longbow II anyone?).<BR>
<BR>
4) I notice that 'spun' orbitals don't appear to be included (ones <BR>
like 2001's station and CJ Cherryh's Stations) which is a shame to <BR>
some extent.<BR>
<BR>
5) The book itself looks up to the same standards as Far Trader, with <BR>
lots of meat to be used by any Traveller referee for ideas in a game, <BR>
not just GT. As ever, beyond the Regency this will be hard to use <BR>
with TNE's setting, but there are little hints all over which are <BR>
worthwhile.<BR>
<BR>
However, on a first skim this looks like an excellent buy.<BR>
<BR>
Well done folks.<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
PS Jesse managed to capture one of my campaign incidents <BR>
unintentionally - on p82 with a squadron of riders flying past a high <BR>
port. I did this to players on one of the Dinom/Dinomn worlds with a <BR>
squadron coming out of jump with no transponders and deploying in <BR>
strike formation. The high port went into alert, the SDBs were taking <BR>
off, and the whole station was locking down before the light lag on <BR>
the message revealed that it was an Imperial Navy Task Force on <BR>
exercises along the border, just before the FFW.<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2000 05:01:55 -0400<BR>
From: "J-Man" <j-man@iname.com><BR>
Subject: Re: RS<BR>
<BR>
It is my understanding that simply talking to Roger Sanger merely elicits<BR>
either verbal abuse from him or impractical demands (as his 'request' for a<BR>
6-figure sum for the rights to the DGP materials).  I agree, one needs to<BR>
make money, but one should also be realistic about it.  This reminds me of<BR>
the time I drove by a GMC Pacer that was up on blocks due to no wheels, with<BR>
a FOR SALE sign on it saying : $6,000.<BR>
___________________________________________________________<BR>
 J-Man<BR>
 ICQ# 2843475<BR>
 New Hampshire - U.S.A.<BR>
 Email : j-man@iname.com<BR>
 Home Page : http://www.gocsystems.com/<BR>
___________________________________________________________<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: "Ingo Heinscher" <Hiroshi.Estigarribia@gmx.de><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Sunday, April 02, 2000 3:53 AM<BR>
Subject: Re: RS<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> BTW: It may be the case that the rights to the DGP stuff is the only thing<BR>
> vaulable that this guy has. Since he opbviously keeps changing ISP's and<BR>
is<BR>
> in trouble to pay some bills, well, isn't it understandable that he tries<BR>
> to get some money out of his possesions? I mean, this is the beginning of<BR>
> the 21st century. It's a market economy on this planet, and we all have to<BR>
> make a living.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 02 Apr 2000 01:11:42 -0800<BR>
From: Jesse DeGraff <jdegraff@pacbell.net><BR>
Subject: RE: Starports<BR>
<BR>
> I just picked up my copy of GT Starports and I am impressed. The<BR>
> staff at the local FLGS were going on about how good the cover<BR>
> looked, which prompted some questions/observations:<BR>
<BR>
Good to hear :)<BR>
<BR>
> 1) Obviously, I know who the two scouts in the background are, but<BR>
> who are the others? Is Jesse on the front page?<BR>
<BR>
You would know those two, since it's none other than Andy Lilly of BITS fame<BR>
and his wife :)  Left to right the folks that appear are my good friend,<BR>
ex-coworker, and fellow airsoft team mate Evans Pang as the pilot, long time<BR>
friend (who was actually a friend of my best friend 'fore I met him) Pete<BR>
Gotcher as the mechanic supervising the welding robot, Andy's wife <fnord,<BR>
as I can't remember if that's public knowledge or not ;)  >, Andy Lilly from<BR>
Bits, who was kind enough to sent in some pictures to my long ago TML<BR>
request for same, long time high scholl friend Tim Dougherty as the walking<BR>
mechanic, myself as "Lucky Credit" crewman #1, and Pete again as "LC"<BR>
crewman #2.  Figured there was enough difference and depth between the two<BR>
characters that he posed for that nobody'd notice unless told :)  Oh, and<BR>
the figures behind the glass in the terminal area on the second floor<BR>
represent Roger Barr (from the TML) and his wife Aylene, as they were never<BR>
able to get pictures done for me, but desperately wanted to do so.<BR>
<BR>
If you've been paying attention, you'll also know that the shipping<BR>
container reads:<BR>
"FS (in big letters)<BR>
Famile Spofulam High Engergy Wpns Div"<BR>
<BR>
The red dot electronic sign over the bay far to the right reads:<BR>
"Ditzie was here" or "Ditzie Spofulam was here", can't remember which now<BR>
that I think about it.<BR>
<BR>
And the bulletin board visible under the Marava has on it, among other<BR>
things,<BR>
1.A serious import warning against importing Denebian Tree Oxen.  Very<BR>
dangerous critters, those!<BR>
2.An advertisement or two for used starships.  Only flown twice and crashed<BR>
once!  What a bargain!<BR>
3.And an advert for a "gentleman's club" or starport bar, with a b&w picture<BR>
of Angie Everheart on it.  I always was a sucker for red hair ;)<BR>
<BR>
> 2) I love the pictures throughout - both Glenn and Jesse have made<BR>
> this look more Traveller than ever before.<BR>
<BR>
Many thanks!<BR>
<BR>
> 3) There are some gorgeous hints at the plot line Loren has in store<BR>
> for us - 'Dulinor' being used in a poker game using information<BR>
> rather than money, and the GLAIVE - GUISARME hint about the<BR>
> non-existent Research Station 2197 (Longbow II anyone?).<BR>
<BR>
Can't wait to read it myself.  Still waiting on my copies.  Should arrive<BR>
sometime during this coming week.<BR>
<BR>
> 4) I notice that 'spun' orbitals don't appear to be included (ones<BR>
> like 2001's station and CJ Cherryh's Stations) which is a shame to<BR>
> some extent.<BR>
<BR>
Whoops....  :)  Sorry, I just made what they said and had Andy Akins'<BR>
"plans" for.  Some of the designs I'm working on for the "Rim of Fire" cover<BR>
are, or could be, spun designs.  What ends up appearing depends on what gets<BR>
decided on by Loren & Phil.<BR>
<BR>
> 5) The book itself looks up to the same standards as Far Trader, with<BR>
> lots of meat to be used by any Traveller referee for ideas in a game,<BR>
> not just GT. As ever, beyond the Regency this will be hard to use<BR>
> with TNE's setting, but there are little hints all over which are<BR>
> worthwhile.<BR>
><BR>
> However, on a first skim this looks like an excellent buy.<BR>
><BR>
> Well done folks.<BR>
><BR>
> Dom<BR>
><BR>
> PS Jesse managed to capture one of my campaign incidents<BR>
> unintentionally - on p82 with a squadron of riders flying past a high<BR>
> port. I did this to players on one of the Dinom/Dinomn worlds with a<BR>
> squadron coming out of jump with no transponders and deploying in<BR>
> strike formation. The high port went into alert, the SDBs were taking<BR>
> off, and the whole station was locking down before the light lag on<BR>
> the message revealed that it was an Imperial Navy Task Force on<BR>
> exercises along the border, just before the FFW.<BR>
<BR>
I'll have to look at that one when I get my copies.  There were some shots I<BR>
remember with MT class cargo ships and Fiery escorts, as well as some with<BR>
the Mercy Class rescue ships....<BR>
<BR>
Thanks again!<BR>
Best,<BR>
Jesse<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2000 17:39:36 +1000<BR>
From: "Katharine Whitchurch" <katts@globalfreeway.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re: Trading in Danger<BR>
<BR>
> From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
> Subject: Re: Trading in Danger<BR>
> Keep in mind that unless you use "micro-jumps" it can take *months* to<BR>
> get to the mainworld, or even to another part of the belt. Which is<BR>
> cheaper? Fuel for a jump? Or 6 months worh of food and life support<BR>
> consumables?<BR>
<BR>
Actually, it's the amortised cost of the relatively large power plant and<BR>
the jump drive that kills you, not the mostly irrelevant fuel cost (the type<BR>
J has a purifier, so fuel is essentially free).<BR>
<BR>
Life support consumables is an arguable issue, given the use of closed-loop<BR>
systems (type IV under FFS2) and food is cheap (Cr 3 per meal is a silly<BR>
cost, given the fact that lo-tech people eat at least twice a day).<BR>
<BR>
And with the good old reactionless thrusters, I dont think it will be<BR>
months to get from A to B.<BR>
<BR>
Another issue in favour of sub-c belters is maintainence demands on jump<BR>
drives. Annual maintainence is a bitch, although if you want to save it for<BR>
ememergencies I think you'd wear the increased misjump chances.<BR>
<BR>
The only way you can argue this stuff is by analysing the economics, and<BR>
they come from what can be built under rules systems. And you wont do that,<BR>
Leonard, so it isnt easy to do rational debate with you about the viability<BR>
or otherwise of particular strategies.<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
> Also, without a jump drive, you are stuck in one system, unless you can<BR>
> arrange for a *big* ship to act as a ferry (which ought to be pretty<BR>
> damned expensive!).<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
No more expensive than any other form of RO-RO or attached cargo.<BR>
<BR>
So we're stuck in one system. By my count, there should be at least fifty to<BR>
a hundred possible places to look - and some of them could take quite a bit<BR>
of looking at.<BR>
<BR>
> From: "Josh W. Spencer" <macmanjws@earthlink.net><BR>
> Subject: Re: Trading in Danger<BR>
><BR>
> Katharine Whitchurch wrote:<BR>
> ><BR>
> > My take on the Type J is that the Type S is the "jump torpedo" of the<BR>
> > Imperial Navy - they build zillions of them at about MCr 25 apiece (you<BR>
can<BR>
> > get 100 for less than one "real warship"), and pass them on to the IISS<BR>
for<BR>
> > detatched duty after 40 years or so duty (and some to INI for people<BR>
looking<BR>
> > like they do detatched duty). Private interests then convert them to<BR>
type<BR>
> > Js.<BR>
> Hey wait a minute...heaven help the OTU if a Type S actually becomes a<BR>
"real<BR>
> warship."  :) :)<BR>
<BR>
Hey, you should see the FS modified "Type F" ... basically, you replace the<BR>
standard 250 MJ laser with a TL13 rapid fire 650 MJ X-ray job, and replace 2<BR>
of the staterooms, the cargo bay and the air-raft locker with accumulators<BR>
and 1 hour<BR>
duration batteries.<BR>
<BR>
> ><BR>
> > The use isnt so much for taking samples out of the system for sale, but<BR>
> > rather to get you the heck out of there when some <person who eats food<BR>
not<BR>
> > prepared by a shugiili> son of a <human who engages in sexual congress<BR>
with<BR>
> > Vargr for pay> tries to bail you up 4 AU from the mainworld.<BR>
> I'm lost on the first <> reference, but not the second. :) :)<BR>
<BR>
The shugiili are the caste of people on Vland who prepared food for<BR>
consumption. Basically, on Vland, if you can wrestle it down your throat two<BR>
times out of three, it will kill you.<BR>
<BR>
The shugiili prepare food so that it can be eaten by everyone else.<BR>
<BR>
On further review, there is one form of food on Vland that is edible by<BR>
humans without preparation. But I'll leave that to be explained by others.<BR>
<BR>
Ian Whitchurch<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2000 19:54:48 +1000<BR>
From: "Katharine Whitchurch" <katts@globalfreeway.com.au><BR>
Subject: More Ochetate Stuff<BR>
<BR>
<this is all draft. I'd appreciate comments><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Ochetate Toothfish : A tasty fish with export markets to many worlds<BR>
throughout District 268 and Five Sisters, with some going as far as Glisten.<BR>
Fished by use of long lines deep in Ochetate's ice-berg oceans. Toothfish<BR>
oil is also extracted, and is somewhat of a local staple.<BR>
<BR>
Political Structure : Captive Government. Ruled by a Colonial Governor, who<BR>
reports to the Mewey Ministry of the Exterior.<BR>
<BR>
Military : The Orbital Fort and the six aerospace fighters are the<BR>
responsibility of the Mewey Minstry of Defense. The Battallion of off-world<BR>
troops are under the command of the Military Attache.<BR>
<BR>
Society : The small urban population of Ochetate is split between the<BR>
capital city (Mhong Nuga) of 30 000 people, and about a dozen towns of 2-6<BR>
000. The remainder of the population live in small fishing villiages<BR>
scattered across the edges of the main continent.<BR>
<BR>
Transport : A TL7 society, a mixture of railroads, ships and non-grav<BR>
aircraft provide for the transport needs of the population. Grav vehicles<BR>
are pretty much limited to the Administration and it's off-world mercenary<BR>
troops.<BR>
<BR>
Energy : Ochetate's oceans hold some deposits of natural gas, which are<BR>
lightly exploited for local uses (Mewey also exports petrochemicals). There<BR>
are five rigs, with the product sent to the capital of Mhong Nuga for<BR>
refining.<BR>
<BR>
Capital : The capital of Mhong Nuga is the location of the Administration<BR>
and the sole institute of higher learning (the Mhong Nuga Technical<BR>
Institute - the few Ochetaters that get higher education get it at Mewey).<BR>
It is a grey, dark, depressing town, with the cold leading to low<BR>
bunker-like constructions. The natural gas refinery is on the edge of town,<BR>
as is the barracks for the occupation troops.<BR>
<BR>
Weather : Cold, dark, grey and depressing pretty well covers it. And thats<BR>
in summer.<BR>
<BR>
Diet : Fish, local game animals, potatos and maize are the local staples.<BR>
<BR>
Ochetate Flu : I'm hoping for some notes from our all-around medical guru,<BR>
Rob O'Connor.<BR>
<BR>
Outsystem : Mewey exerts only very intermittent control over Ochetate Belt,<BR>
which is lightly exploited by a small number of belters, who generally down<BR>
power and hide or jump out-system when a Mewey patrol ship comes by.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2234<BR>
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Traveller-digest       Sunday, April 2 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2235<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Life Support<BR>
Re: Foreven Sector<BR>
Re: Madoc Subsector stuff<BR>
L'oeil d'Dieu, part 1, v1.0 (long)<BR>
L'oeil d'Dieu, part 2, v1.0 (long)<BR>
Re: FLGS update - UK<BR>
TML Landgrab button<BR>
Landgrab: Cipango J-6 map<BR>
Landgrab: Help with Cipango<BR>
Re: RS<BR>
Re: Notes on building Heya<BR>
Re: Life Support<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2000 19:54:11 +1000<BR>
From: "Katharine Whitchurch" <katts@globalfreeway.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re: Life Support<BR>
<BR>
> From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
> Subject: Re: Stellar Data question...<BR>
><BR>
> > For a world on a main in a high pop sector such a world might be only a<BR>
week<BR>
> > from a number of sources of TL10 items.<BR>
><BR>
> Try again.<BR>
><BR>
> Something goes wrong. *Assuming there's a ship available*, it'll take<BR>
> the ship a week to get to *any* other system. Assuming that it takes<BR>
> *no* time to find or load the parts, and to refuel the ship, it'lll be<BR>
> *another* week before it gets back.<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
Then we crack out the bloody imported spare parts, of which I assume we have<BR>
an adequate supply.<BR>
<BR>
> That's two weeks *minimum*. Any kind of problem means further delay.<BR>
> And while it isn't *likely*, what if the ship misjumps? Or there's no<BR>
> ship in port, and no scheduled runs.<BR>
<BR>
If we're a world of any size what so ever, then we have one of those dinky<BR>
little Type S's on duty for just this happening.<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
> > Compare it to living anywhere on<BR>
> > Earth now. A small town in the Midwest might be TL5 as far as local<BR>
> > manufacture and the majority of local technology, but people's homes all<BR>
> > have a TL7 computer, CD player or HDTV, all of which are made somewhere<BR>
else<BR>
> > and shipped into said town, from  places sometimes farther away (in time<BR>
> > traveled) than a few parsecs.<BR>
><BR>
> But how many of those are *necessary*? How many will doom you to a slow<BR>
> and painful death if they fail and you can't fix them.<BR>
><BR>
> Also, consider that it's been more than 50 years since there *was*<BR>
> anywhere on Earth that was a two week round trip from needed supplies.<BR>
> That is, there may have been such places, but they didn't *depend* on<BR>
> outside supplies.<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
Lets think. Mawson Base. If you dont have power there, you die.<BR>
<BR>
You know what ? They have backups they cant build. And spare parts they cant<BR>
design.<BR>
<BR>
> Assume you live in the Midwest. Say North Dakota. It's midwinter, the<BR>
> drifts are 10 feet high. And your town loses power.<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
Single bloody redundancy. You are building a straw man, and you know it.<BR>
<BR>
> Now picture the results if it takes AT LEAST *two weeks* to get *any*<BR>
> outside aid. No air drops. No people on the phone or radio suggesting<BR>
> ways of coping (of fixing the problem) that you may not have thought<BR>
> of.<BR>
><BR>
> Of yeah, no way in *hell* do you have two weeks of fuel that can be<BR>
> used *without* power.<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
Switch to the backup. Oh, I forgot, you are building a "no" case, so there<BR>
is no backup. Or it got eaten by radioactive squirrels. Or something.<BR>
<BR>
> Now, if you *know* this, you either *will* have supplies enough to keep<BR>
> going at a lower TL until help arrives, or you'll make *damn* sure that<BR>
> you can do a complete rebuild of the power plant with parts, tools and<BR>
> skills on hand.<BR>
><BR>
> Given that for a reasonable large group of people (medium city?) life<BR>
> support isn't actually "improved" all that much by higher TLs, and the<BR>
> "lower" TL gear may actually be more reliable (ie plants, fish, etc<BR>
> don't need a lot of monitoring, nor do they need super hi-tech pumps to<BR>
> move the air & water)<BR>
><BR>
> > Now on the frontiers it might be a different story. I'm talking about<BR>
the<BR>
> > Core or Rim. I would expect that things like life support, computers,<BR>
> > starship maintenance will all be at least at Imperial norm (which I<BR>
believe<BR>
> > is at GTL10).<BR>
><BR>
> Again, if the world can't re*build* it locally, they'll stick to life<BR>
> support tech that they can. Even two weeks would be no picnic. A month?<BR>
> I don't even want to *think* about it.<BR>
<BR>
Leonard, we *have* to talk numbers on this. The numbers we need to refer to<BR>
are in FFS2. It says how big life support systems are, and how much they<BR>
cost, and all those sorts of things that you need to define this sort of<BR>
argument. Otherwise we are just pissing in the wind, with *mights* and<BR>
*mays* and other non-provable crap like that.<BR>
<BR>
And do you know what it crunches out ? In the Imperial economy, if you dont<BR>
have a biosphere and you have a world within 2 Jump-2s that does, then you<BR>
import your food. Full stop.<BR>
<BR>
If you dont believe me, crunch out the difference between a Type IV and a<BR>
Type VI life support system for 20 000 people, then amortise the cost<BR>
between each person each year. Then figure how much better off you are by<BR>
importing food.<BR>
<BR>
Your big, clunky life support system will also presumably need more<BR>
technicians and so on to maintain (fish get funky fish diseases, right ? And<BR>
the water needs to be at the right temperature. And halogen bulbs keep<BR>
blowing in the greenhouse), which takes people away from hard-currency<BR>
earning export industries - which I presume are the reason that this<BR>
biosphere-challenged world got colonised in the first place.<BR>
<BR>
Finally, there is one last reason for worlds to import life support needs.<BR>
The favorite tactic of the Imperial Navy is blockade, and blockades don't<BR>
work as well on self-sufficient worlds. The trade empire that is the Third<BR>
Imperium prefers worlds not to have a choice about being part of a trade<BR>
system.<BR>
<BR>
Ian Whitchurch<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 02 Apr 2000 12:22:02 +0200<BR>
From: P-O Bergstedt <zho@berka.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Foreven Sector<BR>
<BR>
Peter Newman wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> BeRKA [QM] has a great version of Foreven Sector, which is due<BR>
> spinward (left)  of the Spinward Marches, up on his<BR>
> website, The Zhodani Base at:<BR>
> <BR>
> http://zho.berka.com/<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
Thanx! The check is in the mail ;-)<BR>
<BR>
> <BR>
> BeRKA [QM] apologies if you prefer to go by some<BR>
> other name, since no other was listed on your<BR>
> Traveller page & your home page was in Swedish (?)<BR>
> I could not determine any other name.<BR>
<BR>
My Vilani name is:<BR>
Mer-Arabira Dutuushiragebaberuuka<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
  _____         _____   P-O Bergstedt<BR>
 /     \       /     \  Stockholm/SWEDEN<BR>
/ * A o \_____/       \_____<BR>
\   @   /     \       / Visit the Zhodani Base:<BR>
 \BERKA/       \_____/  http://zho.berka.com/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2000 20:56:01 +1000<BR>
From: "Katharine Whitchurch" <katts@globalfreeway.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re: Madoc Subsector stuff<BR>
<BR>
*massive cheering*<BR>
<BR>
Brilliant stuff. Magnificent work.<BR>
<BR>
The last time I read something this good about far-future societies, it was<BR>
by Frank Herbert.<BR>
<BR>
The note at the end about God telling the military commander why Grace had<BR>
been granted sent chills up my spine.<BR>
<BR>
Ian Whitchurch<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 02 Apr 2000 21:03:47 +1000<BR>
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au><BR>
Subject: L'oeil d'Dieu, part 1, v1.0 (long)<BR>
<BR>
Fellow landgrabbers :-<BR>
For your perusal.<BR>
Notes [x] are at the end of the post.<BR>
- -----------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
** L'oeil d'Dieu (Aramis 3010) [1]<BR>
<BR>
UWP (1116) : B98A510-B N 502 G1V M9D<BR>
Behind the Claw : Class IV port, Control Rating 0, GTL 9<BR>
<BR>
* System Data (FI)<BR>
System age 4 billion years. <BR>
Main contents 2 stars, 2 rocky worlds, 2 gas giants.<BR>
<BR>
Primary : Cynosure, G1 V           Secondary : Momus, M8 V [2]<BR>
Temperature 5960 K                 Temperature 2600 K<BR>
Luminosity  1.36 sols              Luminosity  0.001 sols<BR>
Mass        1.08 sols              Mass        0.063 sols<BR>
Radius      0.0108 AU              Radius      0.0014 AU<BR>
Stable Life 7.94 billion years<BR>
                                  <BR>
Orbital distances, AU              Companion Parameters<BR>
Inner limit 0.21                   Average orbital radius 8 AU<BR>
Inner life  1.108                  Eccentricity   0.05<BR>
Outer life  1.516                  Revolution period 21.77 years<BR>
Snow line   5.83<BR>
Outer limit 43.2<BR>
<BR>
Worlds :-<BR>
Orbit     Name         Diam|Dens|Grav   Rot    Rev     e    Type<BR>
0.42    Mauvais Pas    4500|4.2|0.43    tl     95.67d  0.02 Rockball<BR>
<BR>
1.22    L'oeil d'Dieu  8798|5.2|1.04    15.10h 473.62d 0.02 Ocean<BR>
 4      Speck            60|3.0|4.1e(-3)tl     11.56h  0.03 Rockball<BR>
 6      Ullage           20|4.3|1.9e(-3)tl     21.23h  0.01 Rockball<BR>
<BR>
2.02    Nemesis       36000|1.4|1.15    16.27h 2.76y   0.05 Gas Gt<BR>
 <5     4 shepherd moons<BR>
 9      Styx           3000|2.6|0.18    tl     1.92d   0.03 Rockball<BR>
 13     Lethe           200|3.2|0.015   tl     5.44d   0.02 Rockball<BR>
 16     Niobe          1000|3.0|0.068   tl     7.42d   0.02 Rockball<BR>
 >20    4 minor planetoids<BR>
<BR>
[8       Momus]<BR>
<BR>
26.02   Etranger      43500|1.0|0.99   14.44h  127.71y 0.08 Gas Gt<BR>
 <5     10 shepherd moons, large ring system<BR>
 7      Cocteau         200|2.1|9.6e(-3)tl     2.54d   0.03 Iceball<BR>
 10     De Beauvoir     500|1.9|0.02    tl     4.34d   0.02 Iceball<BR>
 12     Sartre         2000|2.0|0.09    tl     5.70d   0.02 Iceball<BR>
 15     Camus          1000|2.2|0.05    tl     7.97d   0.02 Iceball<BR>
 17     Marcel          100|3.0|6.8e(-3)tl     9.62d   0.02 iceball<BR>
 >20    5 minor planetoids<BR>
<BR>
Unitage for the table above :-<BR>
Orbit is in AU or planetary radii for satellites<BR>
Diam = diameter in miles (X 1.609 for km)<BR>
Dens = average density in g/cc<BR>
Grav = 'surface' gravity in G's<BR>
Rot/Rev = rotation or revolution period in hours (h), days (d),<BR>
or years (y) ; tl = tide-locked<BR>
e = orbital eccentricity<BR>
Type = G:Space/FI classification<BR>
<BR>
The Imperial Navy base (pop. ~10000) is predominantly located<BR>
around Nemesis due to this world's proximity to the 100 diameter <BR>
limit. Surface facilities are based entirely on Styx.<BR>
	Refuelling in Nemesis' atmosphere can be arranged after <BR>
consultation with naval traffic control.<BR>
	There are two squadrons of system defense boats maintained by<BR>
the Navy - the other is based at Ullage.<BR>
<BR>
Mauvais Pas, Nemesis and Etranger are comparatively unremarkable<BR>
examples of their respective planetary types. Deposits of nitrogen and<BR>
oxygen ice up to five metres in depth can be found on the night side of<BR>
Mauvais Pas. The ring system of Etranger is comparable to that of Saturn<BR>
in the Sol system.<BR>
      None of the gas giant moons exhibit active geology.<BR>
<BR>
* Mainworld Data<BR>
Mass : 1.28 earth<BR>
Apparent day length : 15.12 hours<BR>
Axial Tilt : 19.84 degrees <BR>
Atmospheric pressure : 1.5 atm<BR>
Atmospheric composition : nitrogen 82%, oxygen 17%, others 1%<BR>
Hydrographics : 99%, water oceans<BR>
Albedo : 0.32<BR>
Greenhouse effect : 0.22<BR>
Average surface temperature (G:Space) : 302 K (Warm) [3]<BR>
Weather factor : 16 (Earth=10, so less stable)<BR>
Life : complex animals, max IQ 5 (no primate/cetacean equivalents)<BR>
<BR>
Moons: 2 small<BR>
Name    Orbit  Diam|Dens|Grav|Mass        Rot  Rev     e    Tidal<BR>
Speck     4    60|3.0|4.1e(-3)|2.4e(-7)   tl   11.56h  0.03 4.1e(-4)<BR>
Ullage    6    20|4.3|1.9e(-3)|1.25e(-8)  tl   21.23h  0.01 1.9e(-6)<BR>
<BR>
Tidal : G:FI tidal factor<BR>
Other unitage as per world table, above.<BR>
<BR>
* Geography<BR>
L'oeil d'Dieu is tectonically active, with the crust broken into<BR>
fifteen main plates.<BR>
	The roughly 2.4 million square miles (6.2 million sq. km) of<BR>
land present are the peaks of several underwater mountain chains <BR>
which dominate the main shelf areas, or regia [Foi, Espoir, Caritas, <BR>
Justitia, Fortitudo, Prudentia, Continentia, Auxilium, Trinit].<BR>
	About 40% of the ocean is less than 200m deep, an ideal<BR>
environment for large-scale aquaculture. Considering<BR>
the planet as a whole, the average depth is 2 km (qv. 4km for Terra).<BR>
	The dense atmosphere and oceans act as a very good heat trap ;<BR>
so even though L'oeil d'Dieu receives only 91% of the insolation of<BR>
Terra, it is much warmer, on the average.<BR>
	Local weather is harsh, due to the lack of <BR>
landmasses, large shelf areas, and the other factors mentioned above.<BR>
Storms when they occur are large and persistent (hurricanes lasting<BR>
for two or more weeks in the summer are relatively common!).<BR>
<BR>
* Notes<BR>
[1] L'oeil d'Dieu is French for 'the eye of God'. "L'oeul" is a _very_<BR>
common spelling error (there's apparently no such word as 'oeul'). Vowel<BR>
drift over the next 3 millennia is another possibility <g>.<BR>
[2] Far too many red dwarves in the classical star data, most likely due<BR>
to imprecise astronomical terminology (our sun could be loosely termed<BR>
a 'yellow dwarf', for example). There are no M9 V stars. <BR>
Any resemblance between the general layout of this system and Ochetate<BR>
is due purely to dice rolls. <BR>
[3] G:Space expresses average surface temperature as that at the 30th<BR>
parallel of latitude i.e. New Orleans in summer is the reference<BR>
point for 'Earth normal'.<BR>
<BR>
In part 2 :-<BR>
History, Economy, Culture, etc.<BR>
<BR>
Robert O'Connor<BR>
Medico, Gamer<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 02 Apr 2000 21:05:12 +1000<BR>
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au><BR>
Subject: L'oeil d'Dieu, part 2, v1.0 (long)<BR>
<BR>
Herewith part 2.<BR>
Constructive criticism is more than welcome.<BR>
- ------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
* History<BR>
1. Beginnings<BR>
The system was claimed by a group of Francophile Terran Revivalists<BR>
in 85. They saw great potential in the thriving ecology of L'oeil<BR>
d'Dieu's oceans, as well as the mineral deposits around plate<BR>
boundaries.<BR>
	After an exhaustive (and exhausting) ten year survey of the<BR>
system and L'oeil's shelf areas, the first permanent settlement,<BR>
Olympia, was established on the Espoir Regia, in and around Ile d'Aurore<BR>
(Mt. d'Aurore being the highest peak at some 5000m above sea level).<BR>
	Over the ensuing years, numerous forms of local life were farmed<BR>
or carefully harvested. Export of live plants and animals, as well as<BR>
pre-made dishes drawn from the best of the rapidly evolving local<BR>
cuisine, were exported throughout the adjacent sectors.<BR>
	Within a century, L'oeil d'Dieu was one of the Marches'<BR>
breadbaskets, with a population in the tens of millions and a booming<BR>
economy.<BR>
<BR>
2. The Bubble Bursts<BR>
	Despite the obvious rewards of scrupulous ecological management,<BR>
a group of dissenting corporations tried to enhance productivity by<BR>
introducing some 'promising' off-world plant and animal species into<BR>
L'oeil's oceans. Surviving records suggest that this occurred in about<BR>
200.<BR>
	The 'Ecocalypse' commenced in 233. A combination of disturbance<BR>
to food chains and deranged nutrient cycling finally entered a critical<BR>
phase. The worst fears of those aware of the gradual decline in<BR>
mariculture yields over the preceding two decades were realised.<BR>
	Within ten years, nearly 70% of the species present at the time of<BR>
settlement were extinct.<BR>
	Everyone who could leave the system did ; the economic shockwaves<BR>
spread, leading to a surge in food prices throughout the Marches and the<BR>
ruin of the locally based cartel which co-ordinated the planet's<BR>
external trade.<BR>
	The Imperial Navy facility dates to this time - military intervention<BR>
was required to contain and minimise the disorder associated with the<BR>
disaster. L'oeil was interdicted by the Navy.<BR>
	A bitter civil war flared, eventually sputtering out in 302 due to the<BR>
fatigue of the belligerents. The IISS Amber Zoned the system in 310.<BR>
<BR>
3. Order Returns <BR>
By 370, the population had fallen to about 30,000.<BR>
The remaining families decided to put aside their differences and<BR>
rebuild. To present a united front to the Imperium, the Co-operative (a<BR>
council with membership drawn from the senior members of each family)<BR>
was founded in 400.<BR>
	Its first actions were to apply to the IISS to have the system<BR>
Green Zoned and to tender for finance for reconstruction.<BR>
	Sharushid LIC made the most attractive offer (which caused<BR>
some consternation in financial circles at the time, as this<BR>
megacorporation isn't known for this sort of investment). This<BR>
agreement was ratified in 411.<BR>
	By 700, the local ecology was on the road to recovery. Cloning of<BR>
off-world zoological/botanical collections, as well<BR>
as state of the art ecoremediation techniques, began to yield dividends. <BR>
<BR>
* Government<BR>
The Co-operative is made up of two councils, one of which has executive<BR>
and judicial functions ; the other is legislative. Councillors are<BR>
drawn from the senior members of the top 20 families (as determined by<BR>
their level of business activity). <BR>
	Each councillor generally serves for life, and appoints his or<BR>
her replacement unless illness or insolvency prevent this.<BR>
	To prevent a repeat of the events leading to the Ecocalypse, the<BR>
council families are required to keep their financial dealings<BR>
completely transparent ; records are to be available on demand, and any<BR>
significant transaction must be recorded or teleconferenced. <BR>
	The legislative council doesn't do very much. Beyond rules<BR>
establishing minimum safety standards for habitats, environmental<BR>
legislation and the Constitution of the Co-operative, the corpus of<BR>
planetary law is small.<BR>
<BR>
* Economy<BR>
Population 523,000 (includes Naval personnel)<BR>
WTN : 4<BR>
<BR>
All interstellar trade is conducted through Sharushid as per the treaty<BR>
of 411. Visiting vessels must berth in the Speck traffic control zone.<BR>
There are a series of facilities in and around Speck, primarily<BR>
dedicated to cargo handling.<BR>
	Visiting L'oeil's surface is discouraged, due to the possibility<BR>
of introducing some biohazard. Everyone on the planet can be contacted<BR>
more or less instantly from Speck, anyway - and the weather makes it<BR>
a less than ideal tourist destination.<BR>
	If travellers have the patience or need to put up with the<BR>
quarantine procedures, they can ride a cargo lighter down to the planet.<BR>
	The surface element of L'oeil's starport is 160km away from Olympia, at<BR>
Cousteau. It is a large semi-automated facility.<BR>
	Olympia is the planet's main population centre (50,000), with <BR>
approximately 200 other settlements scattered over the other regia.<BR>
Regular submarine and speeder services exist between the communities.<BR>
	There is an extensive fibre-optic communications network, as<BR>
well as a sonar based emergency signalling system. Radio and laser/maser<BR>
uplinks are also based in storm sheltered facilities on some of the<BR>
mountains.    <BR>
	L'oeil d'Dieu's primary export is foodstuffs, in various levels<BR>
of preparation. Other products include diving suits, underwater<BR>
lighting, sensor and life support systems, submersibles, computer<BR>
software (e.g. climate and current modelling) and diagnostic test kits<BR>
(e.g. rapid analysis of solutions).<BR>
	The latter are produced by small family concerns, usually to<BR>
custom specifications - expensive, but of high quality.<BR>
	<BR>
* Culture<BR>
The years of association with Sharushid have weakened the<BR>
Revivalist movement. L'oeil's citizenry is well educated and<BR>
relatively cosmopolitan ; while Anglic is the official language, French <BR>
(?Franglais?) and Vilani are also spoken.<BR>
	However, the fear of contamination or contagion tends to<BR>
feature in all interactions with outsiders. While mask and glove<BR>
wearing is rare, fastidious hand washing and segregation of natives<BR>
and off-worlders while eating is not.<BR>
	There is a small undercurrent of guilt about the events of the<BR>
Ecocalypse ; but in public, the prevailing attitude is pride (which<BR>
some outsiders might find excessive) in their ability to survive and<BR>
flourish in the wake of a major extinction event.<BR>
	The most important holiday periods celebrate the Treaty of 411,<BR>
the founding of the Co-operative, and the establishment of Olympia.	<BR>
Oops!<BR>
No biological type stuff (among other things).<BR>
To work...<BR>
<BR>
Robert O'Connor<BR>
Medico, Gamer<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2000 09:38:53 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Re: FLGS update - UK<BR>
<BR>
At 18:04 -0500 1/4/00, Qstor@aol.com wrote:<BR>
>I couldn't wait for GT Starports to arrive at my FLGS in the US so I ordered<BR>
>from the SJG web site....but UPS hasn't brought it yet :(<BR>
><BR>
>Guess I should have went to the FLGS instead :)<BR>
<BR>
A recent Daily Illuminator from SJ Games reported that Warehouse 23 <BR>
had had some problems with their site and had lost orders between <BR>
certain periods. It's worth checking to see if you ordered in this <BR>
period.<BR>
<BR>
At 0:00 -0600 1/4/00, Steve Jackson Games wrote:<BR>
>SJ Games News: Warehouse 23 Glitch<BR>
><BR>
>   Can we blame this on the Martians? Well, we can try.<BR>
><BR>
>   A change in the W23 code produced a glitch that we didn't catch until<BR>
>   late last night. The upshot: orders placed between 8pm Thursday and 9:40pm<BR>
>   Friday (CST) didn't really get placed. If you ordered anything from W23<BR>
>   recently and didn't get an acknowledgement, your order didn't happen.<BR>
>   Log back in, please, and see if you still have a full shopping cart.<BR>
>   If not, please re-fill it and buy the stuff again :-)<BR>
><BR>
>   Thanks for your patience. It was the Martians, really. They write pretty<BR>
>   good code, even though all the comments are just "Ak ak ak AK AK ak Ak<BR>
>   AK ak," but we can't get them to debug it worth a darn.<BR>
>   -- Steve Jackson<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 02 Apr 2000 14:52:30 +0200<BR>
From: P-O Bergstedt <zho@berka.com><BR>
Subject: TML Landgrab button<BR>
<BR>
I have made a small button for the TML Landgrab.<BR>
Get it at URL:<BR>
http://zho.berka.com/data/spinward/chronor/cipango/tml_landgrab.gif<BR>
<BR>
Put it on your landgrab site and link to<BR>
the landgrab list at downport:<BR>
http://www.downport.com/landgrab/<BR>
<BR>
(Maybe you can make a nicer button,<BR>
this was a just a fun idea that I had.<BR>
If so, lets have a vote for the best one.)<BR>
<BR>
  _____         _____   P-O Bergstedt<BR>
 /     \       /     \  Stockholm/SWEDEN<BR>
/ * A o \_____/       \_____<BR>
\   @   /     \       / Visit the Zhodani Base:<BR>
 \BERKA/       \_____/  http://zho.berka.com/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 02 Apr 2000 15:01:02 +0200<BR>
From: P-O Bergstedt <zho@berka.com><BR>
Subject: Landgrab: Cipango J-6 map<BR>
<BR>
For the Cipango Landgrab there is now a J-6 map<BR>
so that I can link to other landgrab sites within a J-6 radii.<BR>
(There are a few within J-6 in the Jewell cluster.) <BR>
The map (84k) can be found at URL:<BR>
http://zho.berka.com/data/spinward/chronor/cipango/cipango_j6.gif<BR>
<BR>
To make your own Landgrab J-6 map there is a blank J-6 map at URL:<BR>
http://zho.berka.com/rules/j6map2.gif<BR>
<BR>
  _____         _____   P-O Bergstedt<BR>
 /     \       /     \  Stockholm/SWEDEN<BR>
/ * A o \_____/       \_____<BR>
\   @   /     \       / Visit the Zhodani Base:<BR>
 \BERKA/       \_____/  http://zho.berka.com/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 02 Apr 2000 15:04:48 +0200<BR>
From: P-O Bergstedt <zho@berka.com><BR>
Subject: Landgrab: Help with Cipango<BR>
<BR>
I need info about Cipango from:<BR>
"A Concise History of the Third Imperium"<BR>
The Travellers' Digest 18;<BR>
"The Fifth Frontier War"<BR>
The Spinward Marches Campaign<BR>
<BR>
Can anyone help me please?<BR>
<BR>
  _____         _____   P-O Bergstedt<BR>
 /     \       /     \  Stockholm/SWEDEN<BR>
/ * A o \_____/       \_____<BR>
\   @   /     \       / Visit the Zhodani Base:<BR>
 \BERKA/       \_____/  http://zho.berka.com/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 02 Apr 2000 15:36:12 +0200<BR>
From: Ingo Heinscher <Hiroshi.Estigarribia@gmx.de><BR>
Subject: Re: RS<BR>
<BR>
At 05:01 02.04.00 -0400, J-Man wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>It is my understanding that simply talking to Roger Sanger merely elicits<BR>
>either verbal abuse from him or impractical demands (as his 'request' for a<BR>
>6-figure sum for the rights to the DGP materials).  I agree, one needs to<BR>
>make money, but one should also be realistic about it.  This reminds me of<BR>
>the time I drove by a GMC Pacer that was up on blocks due to no wheels, with<BR>
>a FOR SALE sign on it saying : $6,000.<BR>
<BR>
You say it is your understanding. So you don't know for sure?<BR>
<BR>
Anyway, a 6-figure sum would me much too high, I think. If he really wants<BR>
to earn any money out of it, he will have to lower his demands.<BR>
<BR>
Any professionals out there who can tell an approximate *realistic* price<BR>
for the DGP stuff rights?<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
"This was not meant to be an aggresssion against the Siru Zirka. But we had<BR>
to organize our affairs a bit more efficiently. To be honest, we have had<BR>
to do this for almost 300 years by now."<BR>
unknown Terran politician, -2398 Imp<BR>
;-) ingo heinscher <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2000 04:23:12 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Notes on building Heya<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>>A high-population world HAS to be able to support itself.<BR>
><BR>
> Says who? There are "high population" countries in the real world that<BR>
> couldn't support themselves if they tried.<BR>
<BR>
The transport situation is rather different in the real world. The<BR>
two-week lag in feedback can be a *real* hasle.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2000 04:35:28 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Life Support<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>> From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
>> Subject: Re: Stellar Data question...<BR>
>><BR>
>> > For a world on a main in a high pop sector such a world might be only a<BR>
> week<BR>
>> > from a number of sources of TL10 items.<BR>
>><BR>
>> Try again.<BR>
>><BR>
>> Something goes wrong. *Assuming there's a ship available*, it'll take<BR>
>> the ship a week to get to *any* other system. Assuming that it takes<BR>
>> *no* time to find or load the parts, and to refuel the ship, it'lll be<BR>
>> *another* week before it gets back.<BR>
><BR>
> Then we crack out the bloody imported spare parts, of which I assume we have<BR>
> an adequate supply.<BR>
<BR>
There are spare parts, and then there are spare parts. They cost money.<BR>
Some cost *lots* of money, much of it shipping charges. And some can't<BR>
be "shipped" at all, but have to be *built* on-site. <BR>
<BR>
Check out the sitation with *big* generators, or with the "housings"<BR>
for *big* pumps.<BR>
<BR>
Maybe the high TL LS systems don't have such parts. More likely they<BR>
do, since they need to deal with *lots* of air, water, and "sludge".<BR>
<BR>
>> That's two weeks *minimum*. Any kind of problem means further delay.<BR>
>> And while it isn't *likely*, what if the ship misjumps? Or there's no<BR>
>> ship in port, and no scheduled runs.<BR>
><BR>
> If we're a world of any size what so ever, then we have one of those dinky<BR>
> little Type S's on duty for just this happening.<BR>
<BR>
Ok, that's doable. But make it *two*, because you have to do<BR>
maintenance sometime.<BR>
<BR>
>> > Compare it to living anywhere on<BR>
>> > Earth now. A small town in the Midwest might be TL5 as far as local<BR>
>> > manufacture and the majority of local technology, but people's homes all<BR>
>> > have a TL7 computer, CD player or HDTV, all of which are made somewhere<BR>
> else<BR>
>> > and shipped into said town, from  places sometimes farther away (in time<BR>
>> > traveled) than a few parsecs.<BR>
>><BR>
>> But how many of those are *necessary*? How many will doom you to a slow<BR>
>> and painful death if they fail and you can't fix them.<BR>
>><BR>
>> Also, consider that it's been more than 50 years since there *was*<BR>
>> anywhere on Earth that was a two week round trip from needed supplies.<BR>
>> That is, there may have been such places, but they didn't *depend* on<BR>
>> outside supplies.<BR>
><BR>
> Lets think. Mawson Base. If you dont have power there, you die.<BR>
><BR>
> You know what ? They have backups they cant build. And spare parts they cant<BR>
> design.<BR>
<BR>
And that's a *base*, not a *world*. With help only a day or two away.<BR>
<BR>
>> Assume you live in the Midwest. Say North Dakota. It's midwinter, the<BR>
>> drifts are 10 feet high. And your town loses power.<BR>
><BR>
> Single bloody redundancy. You are building a straw man, and you know it.<BR>
<BR>
Not really. Redundancy is good. But nothing beats having a system that<BR>
*you* can fix.<BR>
<BR>
>> Now picture the results if it takes AT LEAST *two weeks* to get *any*<BR>
>> outside aid. No air drops. No people on the phone or radio suggesting<BR>
>> ways of coping (of fixing the problem) that you may not have thought<BR>
>> of.<BR>
>><BR>
>> Of yeah, no way in *hell* do you have two weeks of fuel that can be<BR>
>> used *without* power.<BR>
><BR>
> Switch to the backup. Oh, I forgot, you are building a "no" case, so there<BR>
> is no backup. Or it got eaten by radioactive squirrels. Or something.<BR>
<BR>
Also, consider the *size* and *cost* of a backup. And typical political<BR>
attitudes. <BR>
<BR>
I know of a *lot* of cities that grew, and wound up *using* their<BR>
"backup" water/power/whatever because the politicians either didn't<BR>
care to spend the money, or the people approved the tax levy and to<BR>
politicians spent it on something "more important".<BR>
<BR>
The *military* generally doesn't make that sort of mistake. People can<BR>
get a bit short sighted. Of course, that could mean they go with a<BR>
"backup" that's no longer adequate. But I think that in the long run,<BR>
gear that can be fixed on site will be the best choice. <BR>
<BR>
>> Now, if you *know* this, you either *will* have supplies enough to keep<BR>
>> going at a lower TL until help arrives, or you'll make *damn* sure that<BR>
>> you can do a complete rebuild of the power plant with parts, tools and<BR>
>> skills on hand.<BR>
>><BR>
>> Given that for a reasonable large group of people (medium city?) life<BR>
>> support isn't actually "improved" all that much by higher TLs, and the<BR>
>> "lower" TL gear may actually be more reliable (ie plants, fish, etc<BR>
>> don't need a lot of monitoring, nor do they need super hi-tech pumps to<BR>
>> move the air & water)<BR>
>><BR>
>> > Now on the frontiers it might be a different story. I'm talking about<BR>
> the<BR>
>> > Core or Rim. I would expect that things like life support, computers,<BR>
>> > starship maintenance will all be at least at Imperial norm (which I<BR>
> believe<BR>
>> > is at GTL10).<BR>
>><BR>
>> Again, if the world can't re*build* it locally, they'll stick to life<BR>
>> support tech that they can. Even two weeks would be no picnic. A month?<BR>
>> I don't even want to *think* about it.<BR>
><BR>
> Leonard, we *have* to talk numbers on this. The numbers we need to refer to<BR>
> are in FFS2. It says how big life support systems are, and how much they<BR>
> cost, and all those sorts of things that you need to define this sort of<BR>
> argument. Otherwise we are just pissing in the wind, with *mights* and<BR>
> *mays* and other non-provable crap like that.<BR>
><BR>
> And do you know what it crunches out ? In the Imperial economy, if you dont<BR>
> have a biosphere and you have a world within 2 Jump-2s that does, then you<BR>
> import your food. Full stop.<BR>
<BR>
That's nice. I'm talking about *air*!<BR>
<BR>
> If you dont believe me, crunch out the difference between a Type IV and a<BR>
> Type VI life support system for 20 000 people, then amortise the cost<BR>
> between each person each year. Then figure how much better off you are by<BR>
> importing food.<BR>
<BR>
Since I don't *have* FF&S (any edition) I can't do that. <BR>
<BR>
> Your big, clunky life support system will also presumably need more<BR>
> technicians and so on to maintain (fish get funky fish diseases, right ? And<BR>
> the water needs to be at the right temperature. And halogen bulbs keep<BR>
> blowing in the greenhouse), which takes people away from hard-currency<BR>
> earning export industries - which I presume are the reason that this<BR>
> biosphere-challenged world got colonised in the first place.<BR>
<BR>
*Any* system will need technicians. The system I described is based on<BR>
*real world* systems used for processing sewage from medium sized<BR>
*cities*. The water from the final stage is drinkable. The sell fish<BR>
from that "pond" as a profit center. <BR>
<BR>
BTW, fish do get diseases. But there has to be a source of infection<BR>
first. This is not like your typical hatchery (or, good forbid) an<BR>
aquarium. <BR>
<BR>
> Finally, there is one last reason for worlds to import life support needs.<BR>
> The favorite tactic of the Imperial Navy is blockade, and blockades don't<BR>
> work as well on self-sufficient worlds. The trade empire that is the Third<BR>
> Imperium prefers worlds not to have a choice about being part of a trade<BR>
> system.<BR>
<BR>
And you expect the worlds, especially the more vulnerable ones, to<BR>
*not* do what they can get away with to make blockades *harder*?<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2235<BR>
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Traveller-digest       Sunday, April 2 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2236<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Stellar Data question..<BR>
Re: RS<BR>
Distribution of stars in Solomani Rim<BR>
Re: Madoc Subsector: Starports & personalities<BR>
Re: SETI@home March report<BR>
RE: Starports<BR>
Starport Authority Symbol<BR>
Re: FLGS update - UK<BR>
Re: Dolphins in Traveller<BR>
Re: GT playtesting procedures (Imperial Navy)<BR>
Re: Traveller 3D maps and Computers at the game table<BR>
RE: Landgrab: Help with Cipango<BR>
Re: Traveller 3D maps and Computers at the game table<BR>
Re: Madoc Subsector: Starports & personalities<BR>
Re: RS<BR>
Dolphins<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 02 Apr 2000 05:05:04 -0900<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Stellar Data question..<BR>
<BR>
shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) wrote<BR>
<BR>
> > For a world on a main in a high pop sector such a world might be only a week<BR>
> > from a number of sources of TL10 items.<BR>
<BR>
> Try again.<BR>
> Something goes wrong. *Assuming there's a ship available*, it'll take<BR>
> the ship a week to get to *any* other system. Assuming that it takes<BR>
> *no* time to find or load the parts, and to refuel the ship, it'lll be<BR>
> *another* week before it gets back. <BR>
> That's two weeks *minimum*. Any kind of problem means further delay.<BR>
> And while it isn't *likely*, what if the ship misjumps? Or there's no<BR>
> ship in port, and no scheduled runs.<BR>
<BR>
You seem to be assuming that parts have to be special ordered <BR>
which is not always the case. Let's say that our planet has <BR>
500,000 people. These people live in 200,000 households. Each <BR>
of these households needs a TL 10 air circulation pump. The <BR>
pumps have a mean life span of a little less than 40 years,<BR>
we'll call it a 2,000 week life span. Therefore every week<BR>
this planet will need 100 pumps. The importer on this world<BR>
simply places a standing order for 400 pumps per trip to be<BR>
shipped, as cargo, on a subsidized liner that makes the round<BR>
trip between the two planets every month. (One week in jump,<BR>
2nd week on TL 10 planet, 3rd week in jump to TL 6 planet,<BR>
4th week on TL 6 planet, and repeat.)<BR>
<BR>
Lets say our planet has 500 people living in 200 households<BR>
with the same TL 10 2,000 week lifespan air pumps. One<BR>
pump will fail every 10 weeks. The single local store will<BR>
carry about two or three in stock and reorder one when the <BR>
first one sells.<BR>
<BR>
> > Compare it to living anywhere on<BR>
> > Earth now. A small town in the Midwest might be TL5 as far as local<BR>
> > manufacture and the majority of local technology, but people's homes all<BR>
> > have a TL7 computer, CD player or HDTV, all of which are made somewhere else<BR>
> > and shipped into said town, from  places sometimes farther away (in time<BR>
> > traveled) than a few parsecs.<BR>
<BR>
> But how many of those are *necessary*? How many will doom you to a slow<BR>
> and painful death if they fail and you can't fix them.<BR>
> Also, consider that it's been more than 50 years since there *was*<BR>
> anywhere on Earth that was a two week round trip from needed supplies.<BR>
<BR>
No it has not. There are parts of the Earth (arctic) that<BR>
even today are out of supply range for periods of over two<BR>
weeks, see below.<BR>
<BR>
> That is, there may have been such places, but they didn't *depend* on<BR>
> outside supplies.<BR>
<BR>
On Earth they lived in places where they did not have to worry <BR>
about the air going bad but some lived in places where they did <BR>
have to worry about running out of food. In some places in the <BR>
sub arctic and arctic whole communities (of European Americans who <BR>
were less competent at gathering local food than the natives were) <BR>
relied on ships that could only dock during the short (one to <BR>
two month) ice free periods. <BR>
<BR>
> Assume you live in the Midwest. Say North Dakota. It's midwinter, the<BR>
> drifts are 10 feet high. And your town loses power. <BR>
<BR>
What do you need power for?<BR>
<BR>
You do not need it for heat or light. The Inupiat successfully<BR>
built (at TL 0) homes which were hot (80 F +) inside when <BR>
it was -40 outside using only a single seal oil lamp, three <BR>
to four inches across, for heat and light. Admittedly the <BR>
Inupiat lived in closer quarters than our TL 6 people are <BR>
likely to be comfortable with doing.<BR>
<BR>
If you need power for an air pump then you presumably do<BR>
have a lower tech back up. If I had to design a low tech<BR>
back up for an air pump, and assuming I had no local back up<BR>
power source (generator, solar, geothermal, battery, whatever),<BR>
I would probably use a TL 4 bicycle powered generator or a<BR>
TL 1 treadmill.<BR>
<BR>
> Now picture the results if it takes AT LEAST *two weeks* to get *any*<BR>
> outside aid. No air drops. <BR>
<BR>
Some places in Alaska are like this today.<BR>
<BR>
Harsh weather in Arctic reasons is known to stop air transport<BR>
to communities for well over two weeks. Almost every winter<BR>
I see an article in the local paper that a town in the Alaskan<BR>
bush (population 300 or so) has been unable to get any air<BR>
transport in three months and some supplies are running a<BR>
little low, it's a good thing they brought in all their heating <BR>
oil by barge during the summer.<BR>
<BR>
> No people on the phone or radio suggesting ways of coping <BR>
> (of fixing the problem) that you may not have thought of.<BR>
<BR>
Few Alaskan bush communities have this problem now but most<BR>
did less than 20 years ago.<BR>
<BR>
> Of yeah, no way in *hell* do you have two weeks of fuel that can be<BR>
> used *without* power.<BR>
<BR>
> Now, if you *know* this, you either *will* have supplies enough to keep<BR>
> going at a lower TL until help arrives, or you'll make *damn* sure that<BR>
> you can do a complete rebuild of the power plant with parts, tools and<BR>
> skills on hand.<BR>
<BR>
Yes that is what _I_ would do but the Hard Times supplement<BR>
clearly canonically establishes that this is _not_ what<BR>
people in the Imperium did. The doomed and failing worlds<BR>
were able to hold on for years but they eventually failed<BR>
because these settlements could not hold out without outside<BR>
technology.<BR>
 <BR>
> Given that for a reasonable large group of people (medium city?) life<BR>
> support isn't actually "improved" all that much by higher TLs, and the<BR>
> "lower" TL gear may actually be more reliable (ie plants, fish, etc<BR>
> don't need a lot of monitoring, nor do they need super hi-tech pumps to<BR>
> move the air & water)<BR>
<BR>
> > Now on the frontiers it might be a different story. I'm talking about the<BR>
> > Core or Rim. I would expect that things like life support, computers,<BR>
> > starship maintenance will all be at least at Imperial norm (which I believe<BR>
> > is at GTL10).<BR>
<BR>
In any Imperium I designed it would be too, but canon clearly <BR>
states that the Third Imperium is not like that. If you examine<BR>
the Alien modules you will see that for most alien races certain<BR>
planetary conditions require certain TL's for a population to<BR>
be placed. These requirements do not exist in the standard<BR>
planet generation system used for Imperial worlds. This is clear<BR>
text evidence that, unlike its neighbor other interstellar polities,<BR>
in the Imperium life does exist (somehow) on harsh worlds at <BR>
lousy TL's.<BR>
<BR>
Text evidence also indicates (Hard Times) that once trade and <BR>
commerce dries up that the populations of these planets start<BR>
to die. Therefore we _know_ that the trade which previously<BR>
occurred was providing these planets with products they needed<BR>
to stay alive.<BR>
<BR>
> Again, if the world can't re*build* it locally, they'll stick to life<BR>
> support tech that they can. Even two weeks would be no picnic. A month?<BR>
> I don't even want to *think* about it.<BR>
<BR>
People in extreme arctic climates make plans for this sort<BR>
of problem even now. I would not want to live in the bush<BR>
myself but I know plenty of people who do.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2000 10:34:06 -0400<BR>
From: "J-Man" <j-man@iname.com><BR>
Subject: Re: RS<BR>
<BR>
What I mean is from old emails from this list and various rants from other<BR>
TML members, I have pieced together those impressions.  I have never dealt<BR>
with this Sanger person at all on any level.<BR>
___________________________________________________________<BR>
 J-Man<BR>
 ICQ# 2843475<BR>
 New Hampshire - U.S.A.<BR>
 Email : j-man@iname.com<BR>
 Home Page : http://www.gocsystems.com/<BR>
___________________________________________________________<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: "Ingo Heinscher" <Hiroshi.Estigarribia@gmx.de><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Sunday, April 02, 2000 9:36 AM<BR>
Subject: Re: RS<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> You say it is your understanding. So you don't know for sure?<BR>
><BR>
> Anyway, a 6-figure sum would me much too high, I think. If he really wants<BR>
> to earn any money out of it, he will have to lower his demands.<BR>
><BR>
> Any professionals out there who can tell an approximate *realistic* price<BR>
> for the DGP stuff rights?<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 02 Apr 2000 16:24:50 +0200<BR>
From: Ingo Heinscher <Hiroshi.Estigarribia@gmx.de><BR>
Subject: Distribution of stars in Solomani Rim<BR>
<BR>
Hi!<BR>
<BR>
I found an old map (in some German CT stuff) of Solomani Rim. What puzzles<BR>
me is that the authors obviously used several real star names in the<BR>
sector: Such as Arcturus, Fomalhaut, Altair, Vega etc. Some other real<BR>
stars can be identified by means of astrography (yes, I know,it is 2D and<BR>
all, but some things can be conluded anyway). Namely Ilike, and Shumilik,<BR>
who can easily be identified als Tau Ceti and Epsilon Eridani due to their<BR>
proximity to Sirius, and same is true for Procyon (Fenris).(Though another<BR>
source for these conclusions is Imperium, the boardgame).<BR>
<BR>
What I ask myself now is: How was this map done? Did they use a "real" star<BR>
map that they converted in some way to 2D? Was it just randomly assigning<BR>
names from real astronomy to stars on the random map?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
"This was not meant to be an aggresssion against the Siru Zirka. But we had<BR>
to organize our affairs a bit more efficiently. To be honest, we have had<BR>
to do this for almost 300 years by now."<BR>
unknown Terran politician, -2398 Imp<BR>
;-) ingo heinscher <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 02 Apr 2000 05:31:44 -0900<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Madoc Subsector: Starports & personalities<BR>
<BR>
"Alvin" <aplummer@idirect.com> wrote<BR>
<BR>
> Madoc Subsector: Starports<BR>
<BR>
You have some nice work here Alvin, albeit too theistic for <BR>
my personal tastes, but it would have been helpful<BR>
to remind us that Madoc Subsector is located in Diaspora<BR>
at the start rather than a few paragraphs down.<BR>
<BR>
The date of the article is also unclear 1113 or somewhat<BR>
later?<BR>
<BR>
> I tend to treat canon as just a set of guidelines rather than <BR>
> hard-and-fast rules: You Have Been Warned.<BR>
<BR>
Noted. My comments below are not intended to criticize<BR>
your TU but only to inquire what it is like.<BR>
<BR>
> now, take Jae-Bong Starport, on Kaesong.   Sure, the <BR>
> metal "flag" on the pole outside isn't the Imperial Starburst, but <BR>
> that's about the only *real* difference between this  A-class port<BR>
> and any other solid, prosperous port in the Imperium.<BR>
<BR>
Are you implying that all solid prosperous ports in the<BR>
Imperium are similar, regardless of TL?<BR>
<BR>
If so is this an accurate representation of your TU or<BR>
is your narrator unreliable?<BR>
<BR>
> Another thing is the range of sophonts on the system:<BR>
> there is a good deal of Vacare believers who are nonhumans, <BR>
> about 2% or so of the population.<BR>
<BR>
Are you saying that 2% of the population of a planet<BR>
is a high percentage to be non human? I have always <BR>
thought of the Imperium as being closer to 5% non human, <BR>
although given that Diaspora in in the interior of the <BR>
Imperium I suppose the percentage would be lower there. <BR>
<BR>
> this is the cold-eyed Vilani Baroness who put down the Kelvin<BR>
> rebellion in 1073. Now at 182, she is getting old even by Vilani standards,<BR>
> with a physical age of about 70 in Solomani terms. <BR>
<BR>
In the standard Traveller universe Vilani, even from long<BR>
lived bloodlines, do not typically live to the age of 182.<BR>
Unless your TU is different you might want to say that<BR>
her physical age is 100 in Solomani terms or that she<BR>
is 132 chronological years old.<BR>
<BR>
> in order to<BR>
> insure a smooth succession, she is planning to abdicate soon in<BR>
> favour of her fourth child, following Vilani tradition.  <BR>
<BR>
Vilani and Vargr established that the _third_ child<BR>
was the heir.<BR>
<BR>
> In the<BR>
> meantime, she remains by far the most feared noble in the<BR>
> subsector:   Solomani Imperial military personnel has been known<BR>
> to imitate deep, mechanical breathing whenever she leaves the room.<BR>
<BR>
Darth Vader joke?<BR>
<BR>
Or does the Baroness use an artificial breather?<BR>
<BR>
> Urgi Shedimiirsimar, ex-Imperial Marine<BR>
<BR>
Of what rank?<BR>
<BR>
> Another pure-blood Vilani, 142 years old, but physically in his<BR>
> early 50's.  <BR>
<BR>
Again unless your TU is different 142 in Vilani is not equal <BR>
to early 50's in Solomani. <BR>
<BR>
> A walking military legend, he has been in the fighting<BR>
> ranks of the Imperial Marines for 120 years, signing on at the age of 15.<BR>
<BR>
Why does he get to join up at 15 when PC's have to be eighteen?<BR>
Is the age of enlistment different in your TU, did he fake<BR>
his age, were the recruiters hard up for recruits with the war on?<BR>
<BR>
> Urgi and is among the very few sophonts alive today who took part in<BR>
> the largest single battle in the history of humaniti, the Invasion of Terra<BR>
> in 1002.<BR>
<BR>
You may want to change this to ground battle unless it was<BR>
also the largest space battle in your TU.<BR>
<BR>
This clearly establishes why he has to be about 142 in<BR>
1113 although he could be as young as 130 or so if<BR>
he fought in the Invasion of Terra in his first term.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2000 12:36:54 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Re: SETI@home March report<BR>
<BR>
At 10:29 +0000 2/4/00, "Greg Ellis" <gnellis@ifn.net> wrote:<BR>
>Well, if I knew/remembered what my SETI email address and password were, I'd<BR>
>have joined the sfconsim-l team by now (really, if I'd known there was an<BR>
>official team, I'd have joined up when I joined the project last month).<BR>
<BR>
You can query your password if you go on the website with your email <BR>
address - it emails your password to your email IIRC.<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2000 12:59:36 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Starports<BR>
<BR>
At 5:55 -0400 2/4/00, Jesse DeGraff <jdegraff@pacbell.net> wrote:<BR>
> > I just picked up my copy of GT Starports and I am impressed. The<BR>
> > staff at the local FLGS were going on about how good the cover<BR>
> > looked, which prompted some questions/observations:<BR>
>Good to hear :)<BR>
<BR>
I pointed out you're the same artist as seen on 'SpaceDogs!' which <BR>
they also had in.<BR>
<BR>
>myself as "Lucky Credit" crewman #1,<BR>
<BR>
I guessed that from the photos from your shooting trip. ;-)<BR>
<BR>
> > 3) There are some gorgeous hints at the plot line Loren has in store<BR>
> > for us - 'Dulinor' being used in a poker game using information<BR>
> > rather than money, and the GLAIVE - GUISARME hint about the<BR>
> > non-existent Research Station 2197 (Longbow II anyone?).<BR>
><BR>
>Can't wait to read it myself.  Still waiting on my copies.  Should arrive<BR>
>sometime during this coming week.<BR>
<BR>
2197 = 13 x 13  ;-)<BR>
<BR>
> > 4) I notice that 'spun' orbitals don't appear to be included (ones<BR>
> > like 2001's station and CJ Cherryh's Stations) which is a shame to<BR>
> > some extent.<BR>
>Whoops....  :)  Sorry, I just made what they said and had Andy Akins'<BR>
>"plans" for.  Some of the designs I'm working on for the "Rim of Fire" cover<BR>
>are, or could be, spun designs.  What ends up appearing depends on what gets<BR>
>decided on by Loren & Phil.<BR>
<BR>
Mora Highport could be - I'd actually argue the older stations may <BR>
well be spun. Nick Munn and I spent a lot of time discussing where <BR>
spun habitats would be used when we worked on _Valentine's Rose_ for <BR>
a BITS convention adventure (may well be done as a module in the <BR>
future). We where looking at Ton Vorn, Sylea's L5 orbital city which <BR>
has in habitants in the *billions* IIRC. We decided that the core <BR>
habitat would be a spun habitat (it dates from before -900 Imperial) <BR>
as this was a lower tech option. Elements of it may have been spin <BR>
de-coupled with grav plates, but some areas are still spun. We also <BR>
decided with a habitat like this several sub-stations would occupy <BR>
the same area of space. We actually started on a FFS2 design, and I <BR>
started drawing in CAD, but the thing was enormous.<BR>
<BR>
> > PS Jesse managed to capture one of my campaign incidents<BR>
> > unintentionally - on p82 with a squadron of riders flying past a high<BR>
> > port. I did this to players on one of the Dinom/Dinomn worlds with a<BR>
> > squadron coming out of jump with no transponders and deploying in<BR>
> > strike formation. The high port went into alert, the SDBs were taking<BR>
> > off, and the whole station was locking down before the light lag on<BR>
> > the message revealed that it was an Imperial Navy Task Force on<BR>
> > exercises along the border, just before the FFW.<BR>
><BR>
>I'll have to look at that one when I get my copies.  There were some shots I<BR>
>remember with MT class cargo ships and Fiery escorts, as well as some with<BR>
>the Mercy Class rescue ships....<BR>
<BR>
Yes - but p82 and p72 (same shot from in front of the battle riders <BR>
(the ones you have in G:Space and on your website firing their <BR>
spinals)) are of three battle riders and Mora Highport (the station <BR>
you had up on the demo shot for Starports). They look gorgeous.<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2000 13:08:59 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Starport Authority Symbol<BR>
<BR>
Amusement - the symbol for a starport as used on the SPA emblem in <BR>
GT: Starports is the Solomani Confederation symbol - ie the <BR>
astrological 'Earth'.<BR>
<BR>
Fellow Citizens, we are infiltrating the reborn Vilani Repressor State!<BR>
<BR>
Dom (SolNav Deniable Ops)<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2000 11:15:13 EDT<BR>
From: Qstor@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: FLGS update - UK<BR>
<BR>
Thanks for the hint...<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2000 11:18:21 EDT<BR>
From: Qstor@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Dolphins in Traveller<BR>
<BR>
There might be a mention of them in GT: Rim of Fire...It comes out in a few <BR>
months...<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2000 11:19:38 EDT<BR>
From: Qstor@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: GT playtesting procedures (Imperial Navy)<BR>
<BR>
Why was it put on hold? I thought that Christopher Thrash had been working on <BR>
it :)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2000 09:51:30 +0100<BR>
From: "Michael J Scanlon" <m.scanlon@talk21.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller 3D maps and Computers at the game table<BR>
<BR>
OK I guess I got the wrong end of the stick. But I thought I just say<BR>
something about the subject as it is something I feel I will be working on<BR>
in the future, hopefully not the too far distant future.<BR>
<BR>
Building some software to handle 3d map should be able to handle the<BR>
position of starts their movement as well as the gravitational pulls, their<BR>
length of day, .......,etc. all inclusive.<BR>
<BR>
To get a picture, well is that not just a matter of putting in a zoom<BR>
option, whether it be in cube form or represented in 2d form.<BR>
I'm hoping to build a gaming system which is something like Psi fi version<BR>
of 'The Matrix'. It has been fun just writting about it. I hope I can keep<BR>
it up and convert all my ideas into pseudo code, if not turn out a book on<BR>
'The future of computer Gaming'.<BR>
It's a far cry from playing Traveller though I just love that theme<BR>
Traveller gives.<BR>
I love it's universality.<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: Ingo Heinscher <Hiroshi.Estigarribia@gmx.de><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: 02 April 2000 08:44<BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller 3D maps and Computers at the game table<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> At 07:36 02.04.00 +0100, Michael J Scanlon wrote:<BR>
><BR>
> >what I mean by 'real time chart,' may or may not be like the universe as<BR>
we<BR>
> >know at. SO there may be the option to use the star maps we have of the<BR>
> >universe as we know it, as a make shift unverse may be intergrated as we<BR>
do<BR>
> >not know the full extent of the universe from the Earth. But the main<BR>
point<BR>
> >for using real time, is as an abstract verb for a data base with all<BR>
details<BR>
> >of stars and their planets with their moons and what ever else there is<BR>
> >floating in space which may have any bearing on what ever scenario one<BR>
had<BR>
> >in mind.<BR>
><BR>
> Mh. Our original problem was not using which data, but how to dislay the<BR>
> data. Of course, you can use real time information. But how will you show<BR>
> the players the maps? Simple columns of numbers don't add much flavour.<BR>
> Leonard's opinion was that you could easily use a computer at the game<BR>
> tabel for that purpose, or what he deems even better, a 3D model of a<BR>
> section of space. My POV was that using paper in some way would be more<BR>
> desireable, but less easily doable.<BR>
><BR>
> We used "cubes" because if you use a *map* instead of a row of numbers,<BR>
you<BR>
> have to display  a limited number of starts to get any useful information<BR>
> out of the map. Just as you can have a map of the world or a map of<BR>
Kassel,<BR>
> Germany.<BR>
><BR>
> >> Well, on this, the movement of stars is relatively irrelevant. Most<BR>
> >> campaigns don't last centuries of game time, and still, speaking in<BR>
> >> interstellar dimensions, there is not much change to the astronomical<BR>
> >> coordinates of stars relative to each other, even over the centuries.<BR>
><BR>
> >I totaly disgree. I believe the specific positioning of stars is<BR>
important<BR>
> >due to their gravitation effect upon bodies of mass which come close<BR>
enough<BR>
> >to have any effect upon. Having correct data of the postion of such<BR>
bodies<BR>
> >of mass will be required for navigation through space.<BR>
><BR>
> You do need the exact *position* (within the game universe). Of course.<BR>
But<BR>
> you do not need to know here the stars *will* be in 10 000 years. Since<BR>
the<BR>
> players won't see their characters observe it, mostly. What you possibly<BR>
> need is the positions of your stars in the past, but that is something<BR>
that<BR>
> can sinply be ruled out for the required periods.<BR>
><BR>
> --<BR>
> "This was not meant to be an aggresssion against the Siru Zirka. But we<BR>
had<BR>
> to organize our affairs a bit more efficiently. To be honest, we have had<BR>
> to do this for almost 300 years by now."<BR>
> unknown Terran politician, -2398 Imp<BR>
> ;-) ingo heinscher<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2000 16:48:59 +0100 <BR>
From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Landgrab: Help with Cipango<BR>
<BR>
> P-O Bergstedt wrote:<BR>
> I need info about Cipango from:<BR>
> "A Concise History of the Third Imperium"<BR>
> The Travellers' Digest 18;<BR>
> "The Fifth Frontier War"<BR>
> The Spinward Marches Campaign<BR>
><BR>
> Can anyone help me please?<BR>
<BR>
Ask and yea shall receive.<BR>
<BR>
From "A Concise History of the Third Imperium" ...<BR>
<BR>
    THE SECOND FRONTIER WAR (615 TO 620)<BR>
    The  Outworld  Coalition  reformed  in  609,  wishing  to<BR>
    reverse their defeat  in  the  First  Frontier  War.  The<BR>
    Second Frontier War  began  with  an  attack  on  Cipango<BR>
    (Spinward Marches 0705),  and  then  expanded  to  engulf<BR>
    three subsectors.  Although they again failed to hold any<BR>
    territory,  the  Vargr   performance   was   considerably<BR>
    improved.  This  time  the  Coalition  took  portions  of<BR>
    Jewell subsector.<BR>
<BR>
From "The Spinward Marches Campaign"<BR>
<BR>
    THE ROAD TO WAR<BR>
    <snip><BR>
    At the same time, Zhodani military preparations  produced<BR>
    restrictions on ship movements in their  territory;  some<BR>
    Imperial registered ships  were  fired  on,  boarded,  or<BR>
    destroyed when they strayed into restricted areas.<BR>
    <snip><BR>
    THE CAMPAIGNS<BR>
    <snip><BR>
    The Siege of Jewell<BR>
    <snip><BR>
    Against the Jewells, the Zhodani committed  four  fleets,<BR>
    necessary as much for coordination  of  movement  as  for<BR>
    ship  strength.   The  10th  Fleet  at  Clan  (1103)  was<BR>
    assigned the reduction  of  Mongo  and  Nakege.  The  3rd<BR>
    Assault Fleet at Chwistyoch (0904) was assigned Ruby  and<BR>
    Jewell.  The 2nd Assault  Fleet  at  Cipango  (0705)  was<BR>
    given Emerald to reduce.  The 15th Fleet at Nonjar (0608)<BR>
    was given a general mission  to  screen  the  attacks  by<BR>
    proceeding forward through  Gougests  (0909)  toward  the<BR>
    Imperial border at Tionale (1511).<BR>
    <snip><BR>
    On  098-1108,  the  Zhodani  2nd  Assault  Fleet  (having<BR>
    accomplished  its  purpose  of  reducing  Ruby   [typo?])<BR>
    transferred command of its ships  to  the  3rd  and  15th<BR>
    Fleets.  Admiral Vleniziatl was transferred  to  a  staff<BR>
    position  at  the  High  Command,  and  2nd   Fleet   was<BR>
    dissolved.<BR>
<BR>
Also, from all sources ...<BR>
<BR>
1105: A886865-C Z Ri        gas gaint  ... Supplement 3<BR>
1107: A886865-C Z Ri        121 Zh G2V ... Spinward Marches Campa<BR>
1116: A886865-C Z Ri        121 Zh G2V ... MT Imperial Encycloped<BR>
1117: A886865-C Z Ri O:0304 121 Zh G2V ... TNE Regency Sourcebook<BR>
1202: A886865-C Z Ri O:0304 321 Zh G2V ... TNE Regency Sourcebook<BR>
<BR>
... so a fairly stable  place:  no  change  in  UPP  (other  than<BR>
population increase) for at least 100 years.  (I am assuming that<BR>
the O:0304 reference is not a change  of  status  as  it  is  not<BR>
included in the earlier fomats anyway.)  The only thing  of  note<BR>
is that due to improved Imperial-Consulate relations by 1202  the<BR>
Imperium recognises the Zhodani's alternative name of  "Sachebr".<BR>
So if your Landgrab writeup is set in 1105 "Sachebr" is  used  by<BR>
the Consulate, and "Cipango" is used by the Imperium.<BR>
<BR>
Regards PLST<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 02 Apr 2000 17:59:49 +0200<BR>
From: Ingo Heinscher <Hiroshi.Estigarribia@gmx.de><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller 3D maps and Computers at the game table<BR>
<BR>
At 09:51 02.04.00 +0100, Michael J Scanlon wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Building some software to handle 3d map should be able to handle the<BR>
>position of starts their movement as well as the gravitational pulls, their<BR>
>length of day, .......,etc. all inclusive.<BR>
<BR>
Not necessary. Try <BR>
http://members.nova.org/~sol<BR>
for a free copy of the Chview program, plus several maps of surrounding<BR>
space. That should work for what you intend.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
"This was not meant to be an aggresssion against the Siru Zirka. But we had<BR>
to organize our affairs a bit more efficiently. To be honest, we have had<BR>
to do this for almost 300 years by now."<BR>
unknown Terran politician, -2398 Imp<BR>
;-) ingo heinscher <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2000 09:13:20 -0700 (MST)<BR>
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU><BR>
Subject: Re: Madoc Subsector: Starports & personalities<BR>
<BR>
On Sun, 2 Apr 2000, Peter Newman wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> "Alvin" <aplummer@idirect.com> wrote<BR>
> <BR>
> > now, take Jae-Bong Starport, on Kaesong.   Sure, the <BR>
> > metal "flag" on the pole outside isn't the Imperial Starburst, but <BR>
> > that's about the only *real* difference between this  A-class port<BR>
> > and any other solid, prosperous port in the Imperium.<BR>
> <BR>
> Are you implying that all solid prosperous ports in the<BR>
> Imperium are similar, regardless of TL?<BR>
> <BR>
> If so is this an accurate representation of your TU or<BR>
> is your narrator unreliable?<BR>
<BR>
Look at modern airports...aside from the uniforms of the Customs agents<BR>
and the languages on the loudspeakers, they do tend to pretty much look<BR>
alike; like airports, I expect starports to be very much 'Form follows<BR>
function'. I mean, once you travel through them a few times, you'll be<BR>
able to tell them apart, but otherwise, it's a port...there tend to be<BR>
pretty hard and fast criteria that need to be met by these buildings.<BR>
<BR>
BTW, Alvin, very nice work!<BR>
<BR>
Bruce Johnson<BR>
University of Arizona<BR>
College of Pharmacy<BR>
Information Technology Group<BR>
<BR>
Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2000 16:01:46 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Re: RS<BR>
<BR>
At 10:04 -0400 2/4/00, Ingo Heinscher <Hiroshi.Estigarribia@gmx.de> wrote:<BR>
>You say it is your understanding. So you don't know for sure?<BR>
>Anyway, a 6-figure sum would me much too high, I think. If he really wants<BR>
>to earn any money out of it, he will have to lower his demands.<BR>
>Any professionals out there who can tell an approximate *realistic* price<BR>
>for the DGP stuff rights?<BR>
<BR>
Whatever it was worth it is decreasing rapidly.<BR>
<BR>
As Roger Sanger sits on the product it looses value, except as collectables.<BR>
<BR>
Why? Because the releases from SJ Games and the old Imperium Games <BR>
material worked around the DGP material and covered the same topics. <BR>
ISTR that Roger owns the copyright to the text, rather than the ideas <BR>
and the history within. He cannot publish anything for Traveller <BR>
without Marc Miller's permission. I seem to remember that when this <BR>
last came up on the list it was mentioned that GDW had the rights to <BR>
use the ideas from the DGP material as part of their licence to DGP <BR>
for the use of the Traveller franchise. (Loren may correct me here). <BR>
I also remember someone talking about mid range 5 figure sums for the <BR>
rights to use the material verbatim back a few years ago.<BR>
<BR>
Frankly, I can't be bothered to trawl the past Digests from a few <BR>
years back to establish the figures involved. I do know it caused <BR>
issues with Imperium Games such that the CORE writers were told *not* <BR>
to duplicate any DGP text.<BR>
<BR>
As to Roger Sanger - well, my impressions are that he has dealt with <BR>
a number of people honestly with respect to selling old Traveller <BR>
material. (TML comments from a while back).<BR>
<BR>
However, I also know of several friends who have been stung by him, <BR>
either with vapourware RPG projects they have written for or by not <BR>
getting paid for articles due when DGP changed hands.<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2000 08:21:51 -0800<BR>
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Dolphins<BR>
<BR>
>    I've been trying to locate any canon Traveller books that deal with =<BR>
>'uplifted' dolphins. I think I've got the JTAS angle covered, but I =<BR>
>don't have much in the way of MT or TNE material, so I don't know what's =<BR>
>out there. Does anyone happen to know if there were any major =<BR>
>supplements published that talk about them, or at least any supplements =<BR>
>that mention them at all? Any help is appreciated, thanks.<BR>
<BR>
Not a bit mechanically in MT, and haven't seen squat for TNE. I recall but<BR>
the one article on dolphins for CT, in JTAS.<BR>
<BR>
BTW, you might want to turn off the HTML-mode on your mail-client.<BR>
<BR>
William F. Hostman  |  "Smith & Wesson: THe original Point and Click<BR>
interface!"<BR>
Aramis 0602 C55A364-C S kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge-<BR>
533<BR>
aramis@gci.net http://home.gci.net/~aramis Vilani: uilamaanamti sirohbrankilin<BR>
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn- t4-- tt+ to- tg-- ru+ ge 3i+ c+ jt-() au+ st- ls<BR>
pi+() ta+ he+(-) kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge- pi+<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2236<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2237</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
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Traveller-digest       Sunday, April 2 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2237<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Landgrab data request<BR>
Re: Madoc Subsector: Starports & personalities<BR>
Re: RS etc, etc.<BR>
Re: Association of Several Steves<BR>
Re: RS<BR>
Re: TML Landgrab button<BR>
Traveller is the #1 RPG, but only barely...<BR>
RE: Dolphins In Traveller<BR>
RE: Starports<BR>
Re: Dolphins<BR>
Question re. TML Landgrab<BR>
Re: Question re. TML Landgrab<BR>
Re: Question re. TML Landgrab<BR>
Re: RS etc, etc.<BR>
Re: Question re. TML Landgrab<BR>
Re: GMSound Software<BR>
Re: Trading in Danger (Navy and Type S)<BR>
RE: Notes on building Heya<BR>
RE: RS etc, etc.<BR>
Re: Clyde<BR>
Re: Star Map<BR>
Re: Chris Thrash<BR>
Re: Playtest<BR>
Re: New Madrid Fault<BR>
TML Landgrab - 876-574<BR>
Re: Question re. TML Landgrab<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2000 12:28:48 -0400<BR>
From: Walt Smith <smithw@hartwick.edu><BR>
Subject: Landgrab data request<BR>
<BR>
Sorry to keep asking ...but could some kind soul send me the BtC and<BR>
SMC data on Squallia (District 268 0303, Spinward Marches 1133)?<BR>
<BR>
Saxe seems a bit insular for my tastes.<BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2000 11:32:13 -0500<BR>
From: Bolie Williams IV <bolie@io.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Madoc Subsector: Starports & personalities<BR>
<BR>
At 9:13 AM -0700 4/2/2000, Bruce Johnson wrote:<BR>
>On Sun, 2 Apr 2000, Peter Newman wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>>  "Alvin" <aplummer@idirect.com> wrote<BR>
>><BR>
>>  > now, take Jae-Bong Starport, on Kaesong.   Sure, the<BR>
>>  > metal "flag" on the pole outside isn't the Imperial Starburst, but<BR>
>>  > that's about the only *real* difference between this  A-class port<BR>
>>  > and any other solid, prosperous port in the Imperium.<BR>
>><BR>
>>  Are you implying that all solid prosperous ports in the<BR>
>>  Imperium are similar, regardless of TL?<BR>
>><BR>
>>  If so is this an accurate representation of your TU or<BR>
>>  is your narrator unreliable?<BR>
><BR>
>Look at modern airports...aside from the uniforms of the Customs agents<BR>
>and the languages on the loudspeakers, they do tend to pretty much look<BR>
>alike; like airports, I expect starports to be very much 'Form follows<BR>
>function'. I mean, once you travel through them a few times, you'll be<BR>
>able to tell them apart, but otherwise, it's a port...there tend to be<BR>
>pretty hard and fast criteria that need to be met by these buildings.<BR>
<BR>
Wow... we have two airports in Houston, Hobby and Bush and they look<BR>
and feel different.  The airport in Hannover Germany and the one in<BR>
Amsterdam both feel different from each other and the two here in<BR>
Houston.  The Dallas airport is another one that feels different.  There<BR>
are similarities based on function, but they are all decorated differently<BR>
and have different layouts and amenities.  I don't think they are any<BR>
more the same than restaurants (all generally have tables, a kitchen,<BR>
etc...).<BR>
<BR>
Bolie IV<BR>
- -- <BR>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<BR>
Bolie Williams IV<BR>
bolie@io.com<BR>
http://www.io.com/~bolie/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 02 Apr 2000 11:57:00 -0500<BR>
From: Kurt Brown <kurtbrown@home.com><BR>
Subject: Re: RS etc, etc.<BR>
<BR>
Pardon me for asking, but what is DGP? Being fairly new on the list, I<BR>
must've missed the "set-up" messages on this particular thread.<BR>
<BR>
It's a shame that there have to be disagreements like this re:<BR>
Traveller, but when you have so many publishers writing so much stuff<BR>
over so long a period, I guess it's inevitable. Hopefully, whatever the<BR>
disagreement(s) is/are, they'll be sorted out soon.<BR>
<BR>
Kurt Brown<BR>
<BR>
Motto of the Psionic Institute - "THINK!"<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 02 Apr 2000 08:55:22<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Association of Several Steves<BR>
<BR>
At 12:50 AM 4/2/2000 -0600, you wrote:<BR>
>I've misplaced my ASS membership card.<BR>
>Where can I order a replacement?<BR>
<BR>
Kirsten seems to have a habit of collecting friends and OSOs with names<BR>
beginning with "D".  There are many davids in this group.  Several years<BR>
ago at a con we played a game of Nuclear War between the Empire of Dave<BR>
(Melius and Turner) vs. the Alliance of non-Dave Nations (Kirsten and me),<BR>
all ofwhich was overseen by Llewelyn the Death-Teddy Bear.  We lost, so we<BR>
are now also Dave.<BR>
<BR>
Kirsten wants to get a "Four Daves of the Apocolypse" photo this year..<BR>
<BR>
ObTrav: A character's name is very similar or identical to another guest in<BR>
the TAs hostel, resulting in that character getting the wrong messages from<BR>
the front desk...<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 02 Apr 2000 09:05:17<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: RS<BR>
<BR>
At 03:36 PM 4/2/2000 +0200, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>You say it is your understanding. So you don't know for sure?<BR>
<BR>
I have spoken with the man on the phone.  He is a world-class jerk. He<BR>
could give graduate seminars on jerkness.  He is an arrogant prig who seems<BR>
to get off on the fact that he controls these rights.<BR>
<BR>
>Anyway, a 6-figure sum would me much too high, I think. If he really wants<BR>
>to earn any money out of it, he will have to lower his demands.<BR>
<BR>
The problem is that he doesn't have to make money off of it.  He can just<BR>
happily sit on it until either somebody pays him, or he dies.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 02 Apr 2000 09:11:22<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: TML Landgrab button<BR>
<BR>
At 02:52 PM 4/2/2000 +0200, you wrote:<BR>
>I have made a small button for the TML Landgrab.<BR>
>Get it at URL:<BR>
>http://zho.berka.com/data/spinward/chronor/cipango/tml_landgrab.gif<BR>
<BR>
I like it!<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 02 Apr 2000 10:20:27 -0700<BR>
From: "James W. Lindsay" <jlindsay@home.com><BR>
Subject: Traveller is the #1 RPG, but only barely...<BR>
<BR>
I think it is time for another round of mass voting to keep our favourite<BR>
well out in front.  The good news is that GURPS is currently second, and<BR>
that yucky Warhammer FRP has been knocked down to fifth :)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
http://www.freevote.com/booth/best_rpg<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
James W. Lindsay             Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada<BR>
Website: http://members.home.net/jlindsay          ICQ: #7521644<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
Detour: The roughest distance between two points.<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 02 Apr 2000 12:30:36 -0500<BR>
From: "Kevin C. Carpenter" <teruiki@swbell.net><BR>
Subject: RE: Dolphins In Traveller<BR>
<BR>
Thanks to the list for the info. Sorry for the HTML-mail spam there.<BR>
<BR>
- - Kevin C. Carpenter<BR>
kccarpenter@swbell.net<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 02 Apr 2000 10:51:27 -0700<BR>
From: Jesse DeGraff <jdegraff@pacbell.net><BR>
Subject: RE: Starports<BR>
<BR>
> I pointed out you're the same artist as seen on 'SpaceDogs!' which<BR>
> they also had in.<BR>
<BR>
:)<BR>
<BR>
> I guessed that from the photos from your shooting trip. ;-)<BR>
<BR>
Is it that obvious?  ;)<BR>
<BR>
> Mora Highport could be - I'd actually argue the older stations may<BR>
> well be spun. Nick Munn and I spent a lot of time discussing where<BR>
> spun habitats would be used when we worked on _Valentine's Rose_ for<BR>
> a BITS convention adventure (may well be done as a module in the<BR>
> future). We where looking at Ton Vorn, Sylea's L5 orbital city which<BR>
> has in habitants in the *billions* IIRC. We decided that the core<BR>
> habitat would be a spun habitat (it dates from before -900 Imperial)<BR>
> as this was a lower tech option. Elements of it may have been spin<BR>
> de-coupled with grav plates, but some areas are still spun. We also<BR>
> decided with a habitat like this several sub-stations would occupy<BR>
> the same area of space. We actually started on a FFS2 design, and I<BR>
> started drawing in CAD, but the thing was enormous.<BR>
<BR>
Cool.<BR>
<BR>
> Yes - but p82 and p72 (same shot from in front of the battle riders<BR>
> (the ones you have in G:Space and on your website firing their<BR>
> spinals)) are of three battle riders and Mora Highport (the station<BR>
> you had up on the demo shot for Starports). They look gorgeous.<BR>
><BR>
> Dom<BR>
<BR>
The light goes "DING!"  Those aren't battleRIDERS, they're battleSHIPS!<BR>
200,000DT BL15's from "Shattered Ships", er, "Fighting Ships of the<BR>
Shattered Imperium" (THANKS AGAIN WILLIAM, IF YOU'RE OUT THERE STILL!!!!!!)<BR>
One of 'em is also going to be on the <fnord> cover ;)<BR>
<BR>
Best,<BR>
Jesse<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 02 Apr 2000 10:52:55 -0700<BR>
From: "James W. Lindsay" <jlindsay@home.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Dolphins<BR>
<BR>
On Sun, 2 Apr 2000 08:21:51 -0800, William F. Hostman wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> >    I've been trying to locate any canon Traveller books that deal with =<BR>
> >'uplifted' dolphins. I think I've got the JTAS angle covered, but I =<BR>
> >don't have much in the way of MT or TNE material, so I don't know what's =<BR>
> >out there. Does anyone happen to know if there were any major =<BR>
> >supplements published that talk about them, or at least any supplements =<BR>
> >that mention them at all? Any help is appreciated, thanks.<BR>
> <BR>
> Not a bit mechanically in MT, and haven't seen squat for TNE. I recall but<BR>
> the one article on dolphins for CT, in JTAS.<BR>
<BR>
What about the various Solomani alien books?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
James W. Lindsay             Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada<BR>
Website: http://members.home.net/jlindsay          ICQ: #7521644<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
Detour: The roughest distance between two points.<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 02 Apr 2000 13:02:11 -0400<BR>
From: Brian Quirt <baqrt@mta.ca><BR>
Subject: Question re. TML Landgrab<BR>
<BR>
	I'm a newcomer to this list, and quite intrigued by the series of posts<BR>
regarding the "TML Landgrab." I'm wondering if someone would be willing<BR>
to tell me (probably off-list so as to avoid an off-topic thread) what<BR>
this is and how it started. I get the general impression that it's<BR>
relating to developing detailed backgrounds for certain planets, but I<BR>
don't know anything else about it.<BR>
<BR>
Thanks for any information,<BR>
	-Brian Quirt<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 02 Apr 2000 13:30:12 -0500<BR>
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Question re. TML Landgrab<BR>
<BR>
Brian Quirt wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
>         I'm a newcomer to this list, and quite intrigued by the series of posts<BR>
> regarding the "TML Landgrab." I'm wondering if someone would be willing<BR>
> to tell me (probably off-list so as to avoid an off-topic thread) what<BR>
> this is and how it started. I get the general impression that it's<BR>
> relating to developing detailed backgrounds for certain planets, but I<BR>
> don't know anything else about it.<BR>
<BR>
Well, a couple of weeks ago (13 March 2000, to be exact), Doug Berry*<BR>
proposed that TMLers take a world in the Spinward Marches, and "detail<BR>
the hell out of it", using GT: First In, LBB 6, the World Builder's<BR>
Handbook (MT, IIRC), and/or other Traveller resources.  We would<BR>
describe "climate, Culture, Ecosystems, Government, odd laws, religions,<BR>
notable events for 1100-1120, linguistic notes.. everything to make each<BR>
world a living experience."<BR>
<BR>
A list of the worlds claimed so far, and their claimants, can be found<BR>
at:<BR>
<BR>
http://www.downport.com/landgrab/index.html<BR>
<BR>
(I'm the person who grabbed Leander, on behalf of one of my characters<BR>
[Baroness Margaret Taggart-von Oldenburg, Marchioness of Leander].)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
*A description of Doug, from one of his .sig files:<BR>
<BR>
**begin quote**<BR>
<BR>
TML Great Old One<BR>
Plague of the Traveller Riders of the Apocalypse<BR>
Chant "Gridlore" thrice to summon.<BR>
<BR>
**end quote**<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 02 Apr 2000 14:22:08 -0500<BR>
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Question re. TML Landgrab<BR>
<BR>
At 01:02 PM 4/2/00 -0400, you wrote:<BR>
>         I'm a newcomer to this list, and quite intrigued by the series of <BR>
> posts<BR>
>regarding the "TML Landgrab." I'm wondering if someone would be willing<BR>
>to tell me (probably off-list so as to avoid an off-topic thread) what<BR>
>this is and how it started. I get the general impression that it's<BR>
>relating to developing detailed backgrounds for certain planets, but I<BR>
>don't know anything else about it.<BR>
<BR>
while not a newcomer, I haven't read the list in about 6 months.  If this <BR>
explanation goes off-list, I'd appreciate a copy.<BR>
<BR>
Thanks,<BR>
<BR>
           -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)<BR>
	     Gearhead-in-Training<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
Gerfalcon Enterprises - GURPS Traveller Ironmongery for the 5th Millenium<BR>
IMTU tc  t4+ tg++ tt? ru ge++ 3i+ c+ jt au@ st+ ls+ pi-(+)<BR>
	ta- he+ kk-- hi+ as++ va++ dr+ so+ zh++ vi+ 0601<BR>
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will<BR>
                          defend to the death your right to say it."<BR>
                                              -- Francois Marie Voltaire<BR>
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"<BR>
                          			     -- Albert Einstein<BR>
for PGP public-key and<BR>
more quotes,  http://gerfalcon.tzo.com/plan.htm<BR>
Traveller WWW Page: http://gerfalcon.tzo.com/Traveller/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 02 Apr 2000 09:55:14<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: RS etc, etc.<BR>
<BR>
At 11:57 AM 4/2/2000 -0500, you wrote:<BR>
>Pardon me for asking, but what is DGP? Being fairly new on the list, I<BR>
>must've missed the "set-up" messages on this particular thread.<BR>
<BR>
Digest Group Publications was one of the dozens of "basement publishers"<BR>
for Traveller back in the early 1980s.  FASA started out this way.  DGP's<BR>
products was "The Travellers' Digest," a very interesting magazine that<BR>
followed the adventures of four Imperials citizens on their journey to<BR>
Capital and beyond.<BR>
<BR>
Each issue was structured around an adventure, with additional articles<BR>
that supported an expanded upon the themes in the adventure.  Very well<BR>
written, with artwork that ranged from "we got a Macintosh for Christmas"<BR>
at the beginning to some of the best of Traveller art at the end.<BR>
<BR>
With the advent of MegaTraveller in 1987, DGP began producing some of the<BR>
best products for the line.  Their alien books, Starship Operator's Manual,<BR>
and a few other titles really put them at the front of Traveller writing.<BR>
When GDW decided to go with the New Era setting, DGP declined to<BR>
participate and instead set its sights on producing "A.I." a techno-fantasy<BR>
game involving nanotech.  This game was so much vaporware.<BR>
<BR>
Through a series of odd deals and sales, the rights to DGP's material ended<BR>
up in the hands of Roger (spit) Sanger, who has proved himself a jerk on<BR>
many, many occasions.  He has refused to part with the rights to the<BR>
material for anything less than US$100,000.  If you have any knowledge at<BR>
all of the role-playing industry, you will see that this number is utterly<BR>
ridiculous.  What's really sad is that as GURPS Traveller progresses, more<BR>
writers will work around DGP stuff and create a new canon, making Sanger's<BR>
material worthless.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas "Penguin Boy" Berry  gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
  http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
"But that's not the point!" raged Ford. "The point is that I am now a<BR>
perfectly safe penguin, and my colleague here is rapidly running out of<BR>
limbs!"  - The Hitchhiker's Guide To The Galaxy<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 02 Apr 2000 10:47:03<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Question re. TML Landgrab<BR>
<BR>
At 01:30 PM 4/2/2000 -0500, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Well, a couple of weeks ago (13 March 2000, to be exact), Doug Berry*<BR>
>proposed that TMLers take a world in the Spinward Marches, and "detail<BR>
>the hell out of it", using GT: First In, LBB 6, the World Builder's<BR>
>Handbook (MT, IIRC), and/or other Traveller resources.  We would<BR>
>describe "climate, Culture, Ecosystems, Government, odd laws, religions,<BR>
>notable events for 1100-1120, linguistic notes.. everything to make each<BR>
>world a living experience."<BR>
<BR>
The reason I made the suggestion was the increasing number of wildly<BR>
off-topic and angry posts to the TML.  We go through this on a cyclic basis<BR>
it seems.<BR>
<BR>
I'm stunned at how well it has been recieved, and the number of odd owrlds<BR>
that have been chosen.<BR>
<BR>
>*A description of Doug, from one of his .sig files:<BR>
<BR>
>TML Great Old One<BR>
>Plague of the Traveller Riders of the Apocalypse<BR>
>Chant "Gridlore" thrice to summon.<BR>
<BR>
Oh, that's no fun.. for a *real* description of this "thin, pleasant,<BR>
well-developed man", see:<BR>
<BR>
http://www-med.stanford.edu/medworld/features/cases/li.html<BR>
<BR>
(Yes, that's me he's writing about.)<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas Berry      gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
   http://gridlore.home.mondspring.com<BR>
<BR>
"A mrgs einu sinni hluti minn systir..."<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 02 Apr 2000 11:52:22 -0700<BR>
From: "Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com><BR>
Subject: Re: GMSound Software<BR>
<BR>
Via electronic medium on 3/29/00 9:38 AM, dom@cybergoths.u-net.com issued<BR>
forth:<BR>
<BR>
> Why do people always assume there is no Mac Software?<BR>
<BR>
Because salesfolk *lie* to them. They point out the shelves of Win-Doze ware<BR>
and say "Look at all the stuff!" Then they point at the Mac section and note<BR>
how small the selection is. But I want to know just how many word<BR>
processors, paint programs, data bases, etc. one really needs. I have yet to<BR>
find something I can not do on my Mac, other than run /specific/ programs.<BR>
And an emulator will handle that, so I'm happy.<BR>
<BR>
ObTrav: Salesfolk *lie* to PC's. All the time. About any product. GM's<BR>
should keep equipment statistics to themselves and tell the players what<BR>
they have in /their/ terms, not game stats.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2000 15:05:35 EDT<BR>
From: Qstor@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Trading in Danger (Navy and Type S)<BR>
<BR>
Sorry to jump in on this late....but....<BR>
<BR>
What does the Navy use those millions of Type S ships for? :) I was under the <BR>
impression from LBB 6 that the IISS through the Procurement Branch contracts <BR>
out for the Type S?<BR>
<BR>
Mike<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2000 15:29:20 -0400<BR>
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net><BR>
Subject: RE: Notes on building Heya<BR>
<BR>
> The transport situation is rather different in the real world. The<BR>
> two-week lag in feedback can be a *real* hasle.<BR>
<BR>
Possibly, but the problem is not insurmountable, as far as I can imagine. If<BR>
you're a world like the version of Heya that has been proposed, you don't<BR>
really need immediate feedback. You're shipping massive quantities of<BR>
foodstuffs to one or two other worlds, people on Heya don't need to know<BR>
anything about whether or not the shipments got there. They just need to<BR>
grow the food and load it up.<BR>
<BR>
I'd be interested to know what situations in the bulk food trade would<BR>
require instant feedback?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2000 15:37:11 -0400<BR>
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net><BR>
Subject: RE: RS etc, etc.<BR>
<BR>
> When GDW decided to go with the New Era setting, DGP declined to<BR>
> participate and instead set its sights on producing "A.I." a<BR>
techno-fantasy<BR>
> game involving nanotech.  This game was so much vaporware.<BR>
<BR>
Didn't Loren say a few months back that they lost interest quite some time<BR>
before TNE?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2000 15:51:44 EDT<BR>
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Clyde<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 00-04-02 00:49:17 EST, you write:<BR>
<BR>
<< Wasn't Clyde the name of one of the ghosts on Pacman??<BR>
  >><BR>
<BR>
Also the name of A-hab the Ay-rab's camel (in the words of the old song).<BR>
<BR>
LKW<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2000 15:51:49 EDT<BR>
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Star Map<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 00-04-02 12:31:20 EDT, you write:<BR>
<BR>
<< What I ask myself now is: How was this map done? Did they use a "real" star<BR>
 map that they converted in some way to 2D? Was it just randomly assigning<BR>
 names from real astronomy to stars on the random map? >><BR>
<BR>
Marc did it, so if you want the details, you will need to ask him. I believe <BR>
he used actual star positions, skewed to the 2D hexgrid somehow, but I don't <BR>
know if he had a system or intuition. I am pretty sure real names were not <BR>
randomly assigned.<BR>
<BR>
LKW<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2000 15:51:50 EDT<BR>
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Chris Thrash<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 00-04-02 12:31:20 EDT, you write:<BR>
<BR>
<< Why was it put on hold? I thought that Christopher Thrash had been working <BR>
on <BR>
 it :) >><BR>
<BR>
Chris is working on Starships, a different title.<BR>
<BR>
LKW<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2000 15:51:45 EDT<BR>
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Playtest<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 00-04-02 00:49:17 EST, you write:<BR>
<BR>
<< I've heard a rumor that playtesting of GT materials is to be taken<BR>
 loiterally, i.e. that it is merely commenting on parts of the<BR>
 publicaztions-to-be, but no actual playtesting. Since I am not a Pyramid<BR>
 subscriber, I simply don't know. >><BR>
<BR>
General advice: Never believe rumors. Rumors killed GDW, more than any single <BR>
factor.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
I have always encouraged people to try out the mechanics of any new rules <BR>
that are put up, but playtest also involves canon-checking and fact-checking. <BR>
There are many who merely read the material and comment upon it, but this is <BR>
not, as you say, a bad thing.<BR>
<BR>
LKW<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2000 16:10:04 EDT<BR>
From: Damage169@cs.com<BR>
Subject: Re: New Madrid Fault<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 4/1/00 11:36:31 AM Central Daylight Time, <BR>
owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
> New Madrid Fault is now being taugh (or was in my Environmental Geo and<BR>
>  Physical Geography courses in 96) as being a "Concentric Ring", "Sinking<BR>
>  Ring" or "mass-depression" fault. In short, the concentric rings are<BR>
>  sinking due to the weight of the plate. There is some geophysical evidence<BR>
>  to support this. Also explains yellowstone, to some degree.<BR>
>  <BR>
>  William F. Hostman  |  "Smith & Wesson: THe original Point and Click<BR>
>  interface!"<BR>
<BR>
I thought that Yellowstone was a geothermal uplift, going to be a volcano in <BR>
about 50,000 years or so. Likewise the Hot Springs, Arkansas, where the <BR>
diamond mine is (although the period on that one is supposed to be about <BR>
100,000 years). <BR>
<BR>
Doug G.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2000 16:55:20 EDT<BR>
From: Qstor@aol.com<BR>
Subject: TML Landgrab - 876-574<BR>
<BR>
TML - Landgrab. 876-574/Five Sisters (0140)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
 I chose this world because I was basing a campaign around this world. I <BR>
would greatly appreciate comments from on the TML on this. Thanks.<BR>
<BR>
Mike<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Main world - E687200-0 Lo nln 702 KV7 <BR>
<BR>
BtC: Starport: Class I, Diameter 5,656 miles (9,100km). Atmosphere: Dense <BR>
Oxygen Nitrogen. Surface Water 65% (deep oceans). Climate: very warm. <BR>
Government: None. Control Rating: 0 TL 1.<BR>
<BR>
It orbits a KV7 class star which is dimmer than Sol. The main world is .35 <BR>
AU's away. It is in the first orbit slot. It has a 100.16 day "year".  The <BR>
length of day or night is 47 days. The axial tilt is 29 degrees. The <BR>
temperature increase for the summer is 16.2 degrees. The average temperature <BR>
of the world according to G: Space is 90 degrees F.<BR>
<BR>
There are eight planets in this system.<BR>
<BR>
0. E687200-0<BR>
1. Y510000 0<BR>
2. Y210000 0<BR>
3. Y200000 0<BR>
4. Y400000 0<BR>
5. L GG (129,000 mile diameter 11 satellites 2 medium moons)<BR>
6. L GG (141,000 mile diameter 20 satellites 1 medium moons)<BR>
7. Y200000 0<BR>
<BR>
I fudged the rolls a bit. <BR>
<BR>
The outer system is unremarkable except for the 2 large gas gaints.         <BR>
<BR>
The starport is several slabs of granite laid out to make a runway with a <BR>
firepit nearby for a signal fire to guide ships by. The Starport was created <BR>
hundreds of years ago but carving granite out of the sides of the mountains <BR>
which line the center of the islands.<BR>
                                    <BR>
<BR>
BtC has a size of 5,656 and surface water of 65%. Another difference from CT <BR>
is that BtC has this world as an Imperial planet. There is a misprint on <BR>
pages 51 and 142. The X-boat link should be to Raweh not 876-574.<BR>
<BR>
 There is as far as I know only 2 references to this world. One in BtC and <BR>
another in GT; Far Trader. GT; Far Trader has the planet listed with an <BR>
Exotic Ocean. p. 129. I have chosen to ignore this. BtC states in part "a <BR>
world with a small stone age population of humans inhabiting the planet's <BR>
jungle covered islands" Ok...hold back the thoughts of Gilligans island :)<BR>
<BR>
There are seven large islands covering the planet each about roughly 3,800 <BR>
square km. Each island contains various mammalian, reptilian and incest life. <BR>
The seas are home to a variety of species as well. The tribe hunts a large <BR>
sea dwelling carnivore which it uses for a variety of uses. The tribe <BR>
relishes the hunting of the creature and celebrates the hunt in stories and <BR>
in dance. Volcanic minerals are used to create weapons to hunt the creatures <BR>
and to carve the islands trees to make sea going canoes. They also gather <BR>
fruit and nuts from the jungle to add to their diet.<BR>
<BR>
    The IISS first surveyed the system 72 years ago in 1048 as part of the <BR>
Second Survey.. The two week visit found the human stone age tribe and <BR>
several other mammals. Volcanic activity was also noted. No large deposit of <BR>
minerals was noted in the 5 week survey of the system. There was no activity <BR>
in the system during the 5th Frontier War. After the war the Imperium annexed <BR>
the planet.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
From WBH (GDP) - <BR>
<BR>
The stone age tribe wears tree dwelling rodent skins as symbols of high <BR>
status.<BR>
<BR>
The warriors of the tribe shave their heads.<BR>
<BR>
Marriages must be blessed by the elders of the tribe.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Tree dwelling rodent stats -<BR>
<BR>
CT - Intermittent 6 kg, hits 5/12 armor none weapons - teeth, A9 F7 S1<BR>
<BR>
GURPS - ST 2 DX 14 IQ HT 13/3 Move/Dodge 7/7 PD/DR 0/0<BR>
Damage 1d-5 cr reach: C Size below 1, Weight 12lbs <BR>
<BR>
(I imagine them as large squirrels with long arms and prehensile tails)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
IMTU the humans are either a minor race or descendants from settlers fleeing <BR>
the dying Vilani Empire. I don't want to give it away to any potential <BR>
players :) I know that having the planets inhabitants be Vilani is non canon. <BR>
I figured since there are Vilani settlers in other areas of the Marches <BR>
what's a few parasecs over.....<BR>
The "government" of the planet is class C. There is a chief of each village <BR>
on the planet. The humans survive by fishing in the ocean and growing small <BR>
gardens. They create weapons from volcanic minerals found in the mountains in <BR>
the center of the islands.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Adventure seeds - 1. The PC's are members of a mega-corp survey team ready to <BR>
exploit the resources of the world. On the other hand they are members of a <BR>
IISS team which may recommend the world for a red zone designation to protect <BR>
the Stone Age tribe.<BR>
<BR>
2. Ship encounters a) A Zhodani Shiva class patrol frigate is refueling at a <BR>
gas giant in the system. Are they up to anything else? b) An Aslan Ihatei <BR>
class transport has been spotted in system. Have the Ihatei arrived to claim <BR>
this tropical planet from the Stone Age tribe?<BR>
<BR>
3. Since the world is at the edge of the Imperium....why not a pirate base in <BR>
the outer system? The Pirates in District 268 would have another "base" to <BR>
come to...and it's a jump away from the Navy!<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2000 14:03:45 -0700 (MST)<BR>
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU><BR>
Subject: Re: Question re. TML Landgrab<BR>
<BR>
On Sun, 2 Apr 2000, Douglas E. Berry wrote:<BR>
 <BR>
> Oh, that's no fun.. for a *real* description of this "thin, pleasant,<BR>
> well-developed man", see:<BR>
> <BR>
> http://www-med.stanford.edu/medworld/features/cases/li.html<BR>
<BR>
Well, Doug, THANKS!!! Now I know _way_ too much about you...8-P<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Bruce Johnson<BR>
University of Arizona<BR>
College of Pharmacy<BR>
Information Technology Group<BR>
<BR>
Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2237<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2238</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
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Traveller-digest       Sunday, April 2 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2238<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2215<BR>
Re: Trading in Danger (Navy and Type S)<BR>
Lord Ship and Dr Strauss<BR>
Re: New Madrid Fault<BR>
Re: Warning labels for Traveller<BR>
Re: Stories in the printed copy of New Scientist which relate to Traveller<BR>
Re: Trading in Danger (Navy and Type S)<BR>
The Landgrab - Singer/District 268<BR>
Re: RS etc, etc.<BR>
RE: Starports<BR>
RE: Starports<BR>
Re: New Madrid Fault<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 02 Apr 2000 14:05:16 -0700<BR>
From: "Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2215<BR>
<BR>
Via electronic medium on 3/30/00 5:42 AM, GDWGAMES@aol.com issued forth:<BR>
<BR>
> Sensors detect a giant turtle, with four elephants on it's back . . .<BR>
<BR>
Further scanning reveals it's turtles all the way down.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2000 14:13:05 -0700 (MST)<BR>
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU><BR>
Subject: Re: Trading in Danger (Navy and Type S)<BR>
<BR>
On Sun, 2 Apr 2000 Qstor@aol.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Sorry to jump in on this late....but....<BR>
> <BR>
> What does the Navy use those millions of Type S ships for? :) I was under the <BR>
> impression from LBB 6 that the IISS through the Procurement Branch contracts <BR>
> out for the Type S?<BR>
<BR>
For the purpose of the second half of their name: scout/COURIERS. I'd<BR>
wager that a large percentage of the used ones on the market, the Seeker<BR>
variants and many of the ships that the IISS hands out with abandon are<BR>
actually Navy surplus. Heck, much like a lot of US surplus hehicles, I'll<BR>
bet they go to planetary navies, or other imperial agencies for utility<BR>
duty as well. <BR>
<BR>
Yank out the jump drives and a lot of the required tankage<BR>
and I bet you could have decent in-system customs interdiction, and<BR>
surveillance ships.<BR>
<BR>
Bruce Johnson<BR>
University of Arizona<BR>
College of Pharmacy<BR>
Information Technology Group<BR>
<BR>
Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 02 Apr 2000 11:23:23 -1000<BR>
From: Lewis Roberts <lewis@mauigateway.net><BR>
Subject: Lord Ship and Dr Strauss<BR>
<BR>
COALINFONET, CLASS: NEWSREPORT, DISTRIBUTION: UNLTD, AUTHORITY CIN/LUHTALAN<BR>
ENFORCER COMMAND/LUCIFER (ORIFLAMME/0932, D474784-8), 9/VI/1202 KEYWORDS: SPACE<BR>
WITCH, AMEILA BENSON, THE SHACKLETON SLASHER<BR>
 <BR>
<BR>
Luhtalan Enforcer Command reported today that the Space Witch, a Luhtalan Naval<BR>
vessel was lost with all hands today. The vessel was intercepted by an unknown<BR>
vessel as the Space Witch was preparing to jump. The Space Witch sent one<BR>
message saying that they were being attacked, but the message was cut off before<BR>
the crew could give any clue as to the identity of their attacker or any other<BR>
information. <BR>
<BR>
The Space Witch was a Stellar-Class Subsidized Liner converted to military use<BR>
as a transport. It was on a mission to carry five criminally insane patients to<BR>
the Crystal Springs Center on Spires. The Center has recently shown great<BR>
strides in curing the mentally ill, with a unique blend of meditation, herbal<BR>
therapy and what the practitioners at the Center call mystical intervention.<BR>
They had reached an agreement with the Luhtalan government to take charge of<BR>
five individuals who were considered by incurable by conventional science. <BR>
<BR>
It took several hours for another vessel to get to the scene and by that time<BR>
the attacker had gone. The Space Witch was left a broken wreck, with severe<BR>
damage to all portions of the vessel. Evidence of brutal combat was found aboard<BR>
the Space Witch. Investigation shows that the bodies were attacked with both<BR>
high energy weapons and hand weapons such as swords and axes. Several bodies<BR>
have been not been recovered, whether they were taken aboard the other vessel or<BR>
blown out into space is unknown. <BR>
<BR>
One of the missing bodies is that of Dr. Manfred Strauss, the so called the<BR>
Shackleton Slasher. A respected surgeon and philanthropist, Strauss lead a<BR>
double life and was responsible for at least 23 murders in the last 15 years.<BR>
The victims were kidnapped and taken to Strauss's lair where he performed<BR>
vivisections on the still living victims. These vivisections would normally last<BR>
for days. At his trial, Strauss claimed to be looking for the secret for<BR>
immortality, which he thought could be found by examining the human soul, but<BR>
first he had to find the human soul. <BR>
<BR>
The Luhtalan government has relayed all information to the Coalition Navy, which<BR>
has dispatched a team to help with the investigating. Ameila Benson, the junior<BR>
Assemblyman from Lucifer released a statement saying, "I am deeply troubled by<BR>
this incursion into Luhtalan space. The Navy must provide more assets for<BR>
patrolling the worlds of the Coalition. Large worlds such as Aubaine and<BR>
Oriflamme have large fleets to protect their citizens, but the small worlds such<BR>
as Lucifer have to get by with a few converted merchant ships. With the loss of<BR>
the Space Witch the Luhtalan navy has been cut by a third. Other worlds such as<BR>
Phoebus or Spires are even more at risk." <BR>
<BR>
Assemblyman Riki Tyler of Baldur replied, "Perhaps the idiots on Lucifer should<BR>
spend some of their money on planetary defense instead of wasting it on a<BR>
celebration of the Earth Goddess or whatever nonsense they are doing this month.<BR>
I am sure the shipyards on Aubaine and Oriflamme are more than willing to sell a<BR>
few top of the line SDBs to those morons." The Luhtalan government had no reply<BR>
to Tyler's comment. <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
COALINFONET, CLASS: NEWSREPORT, DISTRIBUTION: UNLTD, AUTHORITY CIN/KREUZUNG<BR>
ASTEROID/KRUYTER (AUBAINE/0735, B000312-B), 27/VI/1202 KEYWORDS: KRUYTERCORP, <BR>
STARHELM PRISON, KS HAZARD <BR>
 <BR>
A Krutyercorp spokesman announced today that Starhelm Prison had been attacked<BR>
on 25/VI/1202by unknown forces. At 12:30 standard local time, Krutyercorp<BR>
Central on Kreuzung Asteroid received a radio distress call from the prison. The<BR>
prison claimed to be under attack by a unknown vessel and required urgent<BR>
assistance. Kruytercorp Central ordered the two local System Defense Boats the<BR>
KS Hazard and the KS Constant to intercept and engage the intruder. The Hazard<BR>
was the closer of the two and was able to get to the Prison within two hours.<BR>
The crew saw a single vessel fleeing the scene. They attempted to engage the<BR>
enemy, but after a short battle the intruder managed to escape. The Hazard<BR>
suffered light damage, but suffered no casualties. <BR>
<BR>
An investigation of the prison showed that it had taken massive damage. All but<BR>
a few central rooms had been decompressed. Of the estimated 1200 prisoners and<BR>
100 guards, only 11 prisoners and 17 guards survived. A preliminary examination<BR>
of the debris shows that several low yield fission weapons were used against the<BR>
asteroid prison, in addition to standard starship weapons. Blast analysis shows<BR>
that the bombs were placed on the asteroid's surface, or possibly inside of the<BR>
asteroid. The Hazard's sensor readings show the intruder to be from 700-2000<BR>
tons, and able to accelerate at high Gs. The survivors were unable to shed much<BR>
light on the attack; they had been working on the sewage system deep in the<BR>
heart of the asteroid. <BR>
<BR>
Starhelm Prison was a heavy security prison, built into a 60km diameter asteroid<BR>
in the main Kruyter belt. Kruytercorp created the prison as a for-profit<BR>
enterprise in mid-1201. Starhelm offered worlds the chance to remove dangerous<BR>
convicts from their worlds and avoid the cost of building prisons. Kruytercorp<BR>
equipped the asteroid with a state of the art security system, and a defense <BR>
grid to protect the asteroid from ships trying to assist in an escape. A <BR>
Kruytercorp spokesperson said that the prison was a total loss and the <BR>
surviving prisoners would be returned to their home systems at the <BR>
earliest moment. She also said it has not been decided if Kruytercorp <BR>
will rebuild the prison on another asteroid. <BR>
<BR>
COALINFONET, CLASS: NEWSREPORT, DISTRIBUTION: UNLTD, AUTHORITY CIN/DAWN<BR>
BASE/TRYBEC (AUBAINE/0735, B443610-A), 11/VIII/1202 KEYWORDS: ATRASE,<BR>
ZALRAYTOWN, MASSACRE<BR>
<BR>
Since the RCS Nightwatcher docked in port yesterday, rumors have started to fly<BR>
about an unspecified incident in the Wilds. Today RCES officials at Dawn Base<BR>
announced that the RCS Nightwatcher had discovered a raider attack on the planet<BR>
Atrase/Aubaine/Old Expanses. The Nightwatcher arrived several days after<BR>
the attack as part of a RC diplomatic effort to improve relations with the<BR>
planet. According to eyewitnesses a large ship (probably from 500-1500<BR>
displacement tons) landed on the Zalraytown end of the island and discharged<BR>
50-100 human raiders and a dozen or so robots. The raiding force was heavily<BR>
armed with a variety of weapons, but did not seem to be a military organization.<BR>
The robots were of unidentified types, but seemed to be independent entities.<BR>
The raiders moved through the town attacking any resident they found. They also<BR>
looted and burned many of the settlement's buildings. The raiders continued<BR>
their rampage for several days before departing. Several of the nearby farms<BR>
were also attacked. The raiders took with them a few dozen captives, and a large<BR>
quantity of goods. <BR>
<BR>
In their wake the most of Zalraytown was burned to the ground and many of its<BR>
citizens were killed. A number of the corpses showed evidence of torture and<BR>
mutilation. Several of the women were raped and beaten, before being killed. Of<BR>
the town's 200 known residents only 27 have been found alive. The town of Mangus<BR>
has sent in several teams of aid workers to assist the survivors, most of whom<BR>
are in a state of shock. <BR>
<BR>
Zalraytown is a small nation on the main island of Atrase. The central<BR>
settlement is home to some light manufacturing, mostly cottage industries. Two<BR>
hundred people lived in town, while roughly another 150 lived in small farms<BR>
around the town. The farms raised crops and livestock. The island is split<BR>
between the two communities of Zalraytown and Mangus. The two communities are<BR>
semi-hostile to each other and compete for salvage from the abandoned research<BR>
facility on the island. Neither side has been very receptive to Coalition<BR>
overtures. Recently the Coalition decided to send an ambassadorial party to the<BR>
island to try to improve relations. The Nightwatcher was dropping of this party<BR>
when it found out about the attack. The Ambassador and her staff have stayed on<BR>
the island to provide assistance. Since the attack, Mangus has made overtures to<BR>
the remaining Zalraytown folk for them to come under the banner of Mangus. Some<BR>
have accepted, while others are thinking the offer over. Both towns are very<BR>
afraid of what has happened, and this incident has only increased their paranoia<BR>
about outsiders. <BR>
<BR>
COALINFONET, CLASS: NOTICE TO STARFARERS, DISTRIBUTION: MANDTY, AUTHORITY<BR>
COMMANDER, RCES DAWN BASE/TRYBEC (AUBAINE/0735, B443610-A), 13/VIII/1202 <BR>
KEYWORDS: RAIDERS, VAMPIRE, HAZARD TO TRAVEL<BR>
 <BR>
RCES HQ at Dawn Base today released a warning to all starfaring ships. A large<BR>
Raider ship is active in Aubaine subsector. The ship is most likely a relic<BR>
Warship ranging from 500-2000 tons in displacement. It is either a Vampire ship<BR>
or has Virus infected robots aboard. It recently attacked the island nation of<BR>
Zalraytown on Atrase/Aubaine/Old Expanses and inflicted several hundred<BR>
casualties. It is most likely the same ship which attacked Starhelm Prison in<BR>
the Kruyter system and damaged the KS Hazard System Defense Boat. Intelligence<BR>
indicates that it has at least 100 armed individuals aboard, though they seem to<BR>
lack military training. They should be considered to be extremely dangerous. <BR>
<BR>
Civilians who encounter this vessel are urged to flee and to report any<BR>
sightings to the nearest Coalition port. Coalition Naval vessels are being put<BR>
on alert and several patrols are being sent out to find this ship. <BR>
<BR>
- ------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Dr. Manfred Strauss<BR>
Age 53 in 1201<BR>
<BR>
Occupation: Serial Killer<BR>
<BR>
Attributes: 593EC7-1<BR>
<BR>
Background: <BR>
Manfred Strauss was recognized as a gifted child early in life. His parent's<BR>
doted on him and sent him to the best schools that Luhtala had to offer. Early<BR>
on he realized he wanted to know why the human body worked the way it did, and<BR>
this blossomed into a profession as a surgeon. He was well rewarded for his<BR>
services and he became quite wealthy. Believing that everyone should share, he<BR>
donated a great deal of money to various charities. <BR>
<BR>
Somewhere in his early thirties, he realized that he was going to die sometime.<BR>
This distressed him a great deal, and he started to look for ways to prevent<BR>
this. He researched anagathics, but they were unavailable on Luhtala, due to its<BR>
low tech level. This grew into an obsession with him. One day he realized that<BR>
if he could find the location of the human soul, he could remove his and put it<BR>
away for safe keeping, allowing him to live forever. First he  had to find the<BR>
soul. He figured he would find it somewhere in the human body. He began to<BR>
kidnap individuals and bring them back to his laboratory in his mansion. Here he<BR>
performed vivisections on the still living victims. These vivisections would<BR>
normally last for days. His first murder occurred in 1182.<BR>
<BR>
At first he would only kidnap one or two victims a year, but as the years went<BR>
by he started to require more patients. Strauss became more and more frantic as<BR>
he could find no evidence of the soul; at the end of his killing spree he was<BR>
kidnapping several people a month. He also became careless and this allowed the<BR>
Luhtalan Enforcers to track him down in late 1199. All told, he had killed 79<BR>
people on his mad quest, though the Enforcers were only able link 23 murders to<BR>
him. His victims ranged from children to the elderly; he made no distinction<BR>
between men and women. <BR>
<BR>
 At his trial he was sentenced to the National Institute for the Mentally<BR>
Disturbed until he could be cured of his illness. He was at the NIMD for several<BR>
years, and the faculty made no progress in curing him. In fact the doctor grew<BR>
angrier with humanity. He was being kept away from the only thing that would<BR>
save him from dying and humanity deserved to suffer for this. In 1202 the<BR>
doctors thought that maybe he could be cured by a new experimental treatment on<BR>
Spires. The Crystal Springs Center had recently shown great strides in curing<BR>
the mentally ill, with a unique blend of meditation, herbal therapy and what the<BR>
practitioners at the Center call mystical intervention. <BR>
<BR>
While being transported to Spires aboard the Space Witch, the ship was attacked<BR>
by a Vampire. The Vampire blasted the transport and sent aboard several robots<BR>
to kill the crew and to capture a few playthings. Strauss was one of those<BR>
captured. The Vampire then left the system. During the jump it started to get<BR>
familiar with its new toys. While "playing" with Strauss, the doctor was able to<BR>
make a connection with the Vampire. The Vampire realized that Strauss was<BR>
different than the other humans it had captured. Strauss was able to convince it<BR>
that he was able to come up with new and novel ways to "play" with humans, and<BR>
he showed the ship what he meant with one of the Space Witch's surviving crew<BR>
members (who did not survive for very<BR>
long). The Vampire and the Doctor agreed to a partnership of equals. <BR>
<BR>
He also convinced the Vampire that they needed other humans for fodder. The<BR>
doctor convinced the Vampire, who he calls, "Lord Ship", that they could find<BR>
useful humans in the Starhelm Prison in the Kruyter system. The Vampire attacked<BR>
the prison and captured several hundred prisoners. These would be used as<BR>
playthings or tools, whichever suited the Doctor or the Vampire. <BR>
<BR>
Strauss is current search for immortality involves the human soul, but after 15<BR>
years of searching he is growing concerned that he may be wrong. In the future<BR>
he will probably turn to other methods. Perhaps he will investigate if the human<BR>
conscious can be put into an electronic machine. This will involve many<BR>
experiments with human guinea pigs. Maybe he will start to investigate<BR>
anagathics, which will have to be tried out on "patients". Then there is the old<BR>
stand by of organ transport, where the doctor will not lack for "volunteers". <BR>
<BR>
The Doctor is experimenting on humans, but if he ran across a Hiver, Schalli or<BR>
other alien, he would be curious to see if they had a soul. He wouldn't think<BR>
this would help him find immortality, but it would be interesting. <BR>
<BR>
Career Path: <BR>
1164-1167: Undergraduate at Drake College<BR>
1168-1171: Medical School at the Blackmoore Medical Institute <BR>
1172-1175: Surgeon <BR>
1176-1179: Surgeon <BR>
1180-1183: Surgeon <BR>
1184-1187: Surgeon <BR>
1188-1191: Surgeon <BR>
1192-1195: Surgeon <BR>
1196-1199: Surgeon <BR>
1200-1202: Prisoner <BR>
<BR>
Initiative: 2 <BR>
<BR>
Combat Assets: <BR>
          Slug Pistol-2/11<BR>
          Small Blade-5/8<BR>
<BR>
Other Assets: <BR>
          Act/Bluff-8/15<BR>
          Biology-8/20<BR>
          Computer-1/13<BR>
          Genetics-4/16<BR>
          Intrusion-3/12<BR>
          Medical (Surgery)-12/25<BR>
          Music (Wind) -3/12<BR>
          Observation-5/19<BR>
          Psychology-2/16<BR>
          Research-5/19<BR>
          Streetwise-5/19<BR>
          Swimming-2/5<BR>
          Tracking-2/16<BR>
          Wheeled Vehicle-2/11<BR>
<BR>
Appearance: <BR>
Dr. Strauss is very particular about his appearence and takes great care to look<BR>
his best. While in prison this hasn't always been possible, but one does what<BR>
one can. Strauss is a distinguished looking gentleman with silver hair brushed<BR>
back from his face. When available he wears the finest clothing, while at large<BR>
he often wore imported Aubaini suits and tophats. He comes across as one of the<BR>
most conservative and straightlaced Luhtalans you will ever meet. Of course<BR>
that's just his appearence. <BR>
<BR>
Personality: <BR>
Dr. Strauss is a very charming person. When he meets someone he always takes the<BR>
time to get to know them, and acts like he truly cares about that individual.<BR>
That is only the outside appearence, on the inside he is wondering what the<BR>
person would look like on the examining table, with their heart in the good<BR>
doctor's hand. <BR>
<BR>
Motivation: <BR>
Strauss wants to live forever, right now he thinks the secret for immortality<BR>
lies in finding and isolating the human soul. He needs to examine quite a few<BR>
more individuals before he can be sure where it is. He needs individuals with<BR>
pure souls such as children and good people such as religious figures and<BR>
philanthropists. He also needs souls from the other end of the spectrum, those<BR>
who have commited heinous acts. Everything and everyone is expendable in the<BR>
Doctor's quest. He uses people has long as they are useful, after that they are<BR>
ready for the examining room. <BR>
<BR>
Possessions: A collection of surgical equipment and a pistol. <BR>
<BR>
Quotes: "Relax, this won't hurt a bit"<BR>
<BR>
Hit Capacity: <BR>
   Head: 6<BR>
   Chest: 24<BR>
   Other: 16<BR>
<BR>
   Weight: 66<BR>
   Load: 24<BR>
   Throw Range: 20<BR>
   Unarmed Combat Damage: 1 <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Contacts:  All of Dr. Strauss's contacts have been broken. Not many people want<BR>
to associate with a serial killer.<BR>
<BR>
- --------------<BR>
<BR>
Lord Ship<BR>
<BR>
In 1194 the Praetor of the Red Hills Empire on Janosz/Harlequin/Solomani Rim<BR>
traded a defunct Mosquito class light escort to a passing Vampire fleet for<BR>
supplies and high tech weaponry. He used this weaponry to conquer several of the<BR>
surrounding nations. The Vampires ferried the ship to Champa/Harlequin/Solomani<BR>
Rim,<BR>
where it underwent repairs and was subsequently infected with a doomslayer<BR>
variant of the Virus. It was given a crew of a dozen robots; these were mostly<BR>
maintenance robots, but it also had a pair of LSP PR-317 security bots (see<BR>
Vampire Fleets) <BR>
<BR>
The new vampire joined the fleets patrolling the Vampire Main against puppeteer<BR>
incursions from coreward. It did this for several years, until it grew tired. It<BR>
then started to prowl the border regions of Alpha Crucis and the Old Expanses.<BR>
It did this for several years, growing increasingly more violent towards the<BR>
human populations that it discovered. The root cause of its hatred towards life<BR>
is that life can feel sensations, it can feel pain, and pleasure. All the ship <BR>
felt was hatred. Since it can not feel, it decided to make all living creatures <BR>
feel pain. It does not care what type of living creatures feel pain, animals <BR>
are just as good a target as humans. It regards humans as just another animal<BR>
species; though they do make more pleasant noises when feeling pain. It spends<BR>
its time devising new ways to inflict pain on its victims. It <BR>
has had its robotic crew set up a few rooms where various tools such as <BR>
laser cutters, buzz saws, welding equipment, etc are directly controlled by <BR>
the ship itself. It uses these on its captives, though at other times it <BR>
directs the various robots under its command to torture the captives.<BR>
It prefers this to bombarding planets with its main guns. <BR>
<BR>
In early 1202 it entered Oriflamme subsector and jumped into the<BR>
Lucifer/Oriflamme/Old Expanses system. It encountered a subsidized liner nearing<BR>
the jump limit, and attacked and disabled the liner. It then sent its crew<BR>
aboard to take as many captives as possible. After the captives were safely<BR>
aboard, it jumped out of the system. <BR>
<BR>
One of the captives while being tortured, started to critique the ship's<BR>
performance. This intrigued the ship, and it allowed the captive to continue<BR>
talking. The captive revealed that it had similar hatred of humanity, and was<BR>
eager to inflict pain on other humans. In fact the human, was a captive of the<BR>
other humans aboard the destroyed liner, and was glad to be free. The human<BR>
promised to show the ship new ways to inflict pain on other lifeforms. The ship<BR>
was curious and allowed the human to demonstrate on another captive. After it<BR>
was finished the human suggested an partnership, together they would create new<BR>
ways to inflict pain and suffering. The ship agreed, and it now regards the<BR>
human, Dr. Manfred Strauss, as an equal. <BR>
<BR>
The doctor suggested that they needed additional manpower, and they could get it<BR>
at the Starhelm Prison in the Kruyter/Aubaine/Old Expanses system. The ship<BR>
agreed, and jumped for Kruyter. It attacked the prison, and sent in its robot<BR>
crew and the doctor. The Doctor brought back 150 captives. These were mostly<BR>
prisoners, but there were a few prison staff. The doctor offered<BR>
the captives a choice, they could either join with the Vampire, <BR>
or be playthings for the ship and the doctor. A recruit had to<BR>
show that it was worthy, by killing another captive. The offer was made on a<BR>
first come, first serve basis. This eliminated most of the prisoners who had<BR>
been convicted of non-violent crimes. The doctor makes this same offer to other<BR>
captives that the ship takes. The Doctor and the ship then set out to use their<BR>
new found crew to inflict terror and misery on the universe. <BR>
<BR>
The ship has no name: names are only for communicating with humans and other<BR>
animals. When communicating with other Vampires it has a long code of numbers,<BR>
which it can transmit if necessary. Dr Strauss has taken to calling the ship<BR>
Lord Ship, and has forced the rest of the humans to do the same. The robot crew<BR>
members, usually refer to the ship, as the ship. <BR>
<BR>
Strauss is the only human that the ship recognizes as an individual, and he is<BR>
the only one it refers to by name. If it needs something done, it simply grabs<BR>
the nearest human and orders it to perform the task. The Doctor has gotten the<BR>
ship to recognize the difference between the human crew and the captives. The<BR>
crew all wear red bandanas on their head; any human with out a bandana is fair<BR>
game. If a human wearing a bandana was to attack the ship, or to refuse an<BR>
order, then it would be attacked. <BR>
<BR>
The ship is in remarkably good shape for a Vampire. All of its systems are fully<BR>
functional. It only has 8 missiles remaining; if it needs more it will have to<BR>
come up with equipment to trade for extra missiles at the Vampire starports in<BR>
Harlequin subsector. The crew is larger than normal for a Mosquito and the crew<BR>
hotbunks and sleeps in the cargo bay. The large crew also strains the<BR>
maintenance facilities, and the ship is becoming filthy. If this continues much<BR>
longer, the ship and the doctor might have to do away with some of the crew. <BR>
<BR>
There are ten Virus infected robots on board the ship. They are all sentient and<BR>
individuals. The exact types and personalities of the robots should be generated<BR>
by the referee. There are normally 50-100 human crew members aboard the ship,<BR>
though the exact numbers vary. They are mostly killers and cut throats. Not all<BR>
of them are happy to be serving aboard a Vampire ship, but it is better than<BR>
prison. The Doctor and the ship demand absolute obedience; failure is met with<BR>
torture and death. The Doctor and the Ship are not interested in the loot that<BR>
they capture, and all of it is given to the crew, which has kept morale high. <BR>
<BR>
There are also 0-50 captives aboard. These are people captured on raids, or crew<BR>
members who somehow displeased the doctor or the ship. They live in constant<BR>
fear, at any the moment the ship or the doctor could decide to kill them. The<BR>
crew is allowed to abuse the captives, but not to kill them. If one of them<BR>
dies, the responsible party must take their place. <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Lewis Roberts<BR>
- -------------------------------------------------<BR>
Q:What do prisoners use to call each other?<BR>
A:Cell phones.<BR>
<BR>
lewis@mauigateway.net  <BR>
- -------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2000 17:22:17 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
From: Michael Houghton <herveus@Radix.Net><BR>
Subject: Re: New Madrid Fault<BR>
<BR>
Howdy!<BR>
<BR>
> In a message dated 4/1/00 11:36:31 AM Central Daylight Time, <BR>
> owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com writes:<BR>
> <BR>
> > New Madrid Fault is now being taugh (or was in my Environmental Geo and<BR>
> >  Physical Geography courses in 96) as being a "Concentric Ring", "Sinking<BR>
> >  Ring" or "mass-depression" fault. In short, the concentric rings are<BR>
> >  sinking due to the weight of the plate. There is some geophysical evidence<BR>
> >  to support this. Also explains yellowstone, to some degree.<BR>
> >  <BR>
> >  William F. Hostman  |  "Smith & Wesson: THe original Point and Click<BR>
> >  interface!"<BR>
> <BR>
> I thought that Yellowstone was a geothermal uplift, going to be a volcano in <BR>
> about 50,000 years or so. Likewise the Hot Springs, Arkansas, where the <BR>
> diamond mine is (although the period on that one is supposed to be about <BR>
> 100,000 years). <BR>
> <BR>
Hmmm... I thought Yellowstone was the remains of a volcano (complete with<BR>
collapsed caldera). The yellow stuff is volcanic crud; the heat source for<BR>
all the fun bits is the remains of the magma blob.<BR>
<BR>
yours,<BR>
Michael<BR>
- -- <BR>
Michael and MJ Houghton   | Herveus d'Ormonde and Megan O'Donnelly<BR>
herveus@radix.net         | White Wolf and the Phoenix<BR>
Bowie, MD, USA            | Tablet and Inkle bands, and other stuff<BR>
                          | http://www.radix.net/~herveus/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 02 Apr 2000 14:41:50 -0700<BR>
From: "Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Warning labels for Traveller<BR>
<BR>
Via electronic medium on 3/30/00 12:35 PM, martin@ksarul.com issued forth:<BR>
<BR>
> IMPORTANT NOTICE TO PURCHASERS: The Entire Physical Universe, Including This<BR>
> Product, May One Day Collapse Back into an Infinitesimally Small Space.<BR>
> Should Another Universe Subsequently Re-emerge, the Existence of This<BR>
> Product in That Universe Cannot Be Guaranteed.<BR>
<BR>
Awesome. I must show these to Hypercleats, he'll love them. Flagged.<BR>
BZA<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2000 17:44:33 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
From: Michael Houghton <herveus@Radix.Net><BR>
Subject: Re: Stories in the printed copy of New Scientist which relate to Traveller<BR>
<BR>
Howdy!<BR>
<BR>
> There are two stories in the printed (not web version of New <BR>
> Scientist) 1 April Issue (they don't look like spoofs....) which may <BR>
> be of interest:<BR>
> <BR>
> Space Band Aid - describes a polycarbonate and epoxy solution for for <BR>
> plugging holes up to 10 cm in diameter in the International Space <BR>
> Station hull. This is for repairs from micrometeorite hits.<BR>
> <BR>
ObTrav:<BR>
<BR>
From an issue of JTAS (got it, but not at hand), in an article about<BR>
Vacc Suits by Robert Bodine, one finds a description of typical <BR>
features on a real working vacc suit.<BR>
<BR>
Among them is an assortment of "Supr-stik tear'n'swear" patches, for<BR>
that "oops" moment. <BR>
<BR>
yours,<BR>
Michael<BR>
- -- <BR>
Michael and MJ Houghton   | Herveus d'Ormonde and Megan O'Donnelly<BR>
herveus@radix.net         | White Wolf and the Phoenix<BR>
Bowie, MD, USA            | Tablet and Inkle bands, and other stuff<BR>
                          | http://www.radix.net/~herveus/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2000 22:47:29 +0100<BR>
From: "Nick Bradbeer" <nickb@ndirect.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: Trading in Danger (Navy and Type S)<BR>
<BR>
>What does the Navy use those millions of Type S ships for? :) I was under<BR>
the<BR>
>impression from LBB 6 that the IISS through the Procurement Branch<BR>
contracts<BR>
>out for the Type S?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
The Scout/Couriers? I'd imagine they use them for scouting and courier<BR>
duties....<BR>
<BR>
Seriously, I can think of a bunch of uses for them. Firstly, they're REALLY<BR>
cheap. You can indeed buy about a hundred of them for the price of a<BR>
destroyer. A hundred scouts may not be much use in a fight, but if you just<BR>
need to send a ship to take a look at something, or carry a message, or act<BR>
as a picket, they're hard to beat for cost-effectiveness.<BR>
<BR>
I imagine the biggest use will be communications. A type-S is about the<BR>
cheapest thing that can go faster than light. (Hmm...I may use that as a<BR>
marketting slogan...) I can see a Navy Base having several dozen Scouts<BR>
knocking around the place, with scheduled dispatch flights leaving every<BR>
twelve hours or so for surrounding bases, outposts, fleets and so on. You'd<BR>
also have some available as a sort of motor pool, like the army keep Land<BR>
Rovers (or Hummers) around for when people need them. Even for microjumps<BR>
within the system, they'd be useful for ferrying people around, senior<BR>
officers, repair crews, and so on.<BR>
<BR>
Nick<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2000 00:17:03 +0200 (MET DST)<BR>
From: Tommy Grav <tommy.grav@astro.uio.no><BR>
Subject: The Landgrab - Singer/District 268<BR>
<BR>
Hi all,<BR>
<BR>
I'll throw myself into the fray and grab the world of Singer<BR>
in District 268. As I don't have to much suppliments I would<BR>
appreciate any and all cannon information on this world :-)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Thanks <BR>
Tommy Grav<BR>
- -------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
tommy.grav@astro.uio.no     http://www.uio.no/~tommygr/  <BR>
Institute of Astrophysics, UiO, No  <BR>
IMTU tn++t4+tg+ ru+ge++ !3i jt+au+st+ls hi++dr-so++zh-sy-sw++ <BR>
 <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2000 23:46:46 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Re: RS etc, etc.<BR>
<BR>
At 17:03 -0400 2/4/00, Kurt Brown <kurtbrown@home.com> wrote:<BR>
>Pardon me for asking, but what is DGP? Being fairly new on the list, I<BR>
>must've missed the "set-up" messages on this particular thread.<BR>
<BR>
DGP = Digest Group Publications; a licensed Traveller publisher.<BR>
<BR>
Initially they published 'The Traveller Digest' a magazine for <BR>
Traveller detailing a grand tour of the Imperium and surrounds with <BR>
surveys, adventures, articles etc. This included the task system <BR>
which would form the core of MT. They also published some expanded <BR>
material on Scout operations (Grand census and Grand survey). They <BR>
were heavily involved (via Joe Fugate) in MTs revised rules, and <BR>
published number of products 'Starship Operator's Manual Vol 1', <BR>
'Vilani and Vargr' and 'Solomani and Aslan' plus the revised Scout <BR>
book 'World Builders' Handbook'. They also published some campaigns - <BR>
The Flaming Eye and also Knightfall (published by GDW). The <BR>
Traveller's Digest became a larger publication post issue twenty <BR>
something, call 'The MegaTraveller Journal'. This had lots of good <BR>
usable campaign material, and the last issue (No 4) had a campaign by <BR>
one of the Keith Brothers set near K'Kree space (a good one).<BR>
<BR>
When GDW decided to move to TNE as rules and background DGP decided <BR>
to stop doing Traveller work. According to Joe Fugate's notes in <BR>
MTJ4, they tried to buy the rights to Traveller, and when they <BR>
couldn't, seeing Marc Miller was no longer involved they decided to <BR>
go their own way. They were to release a game called AI (which looked <BR>
good) but this never appeared - I believe complications including a <BR>
hard drive crash ensued. Anyway, Joe Fugate etc sold the <BR>
company/rights to Roger Sanger.<BR>
<BR>
>It's a shame that there have to be disagreements like this re:<BR>
>Traveller, but when you have so many publishers writing so much stuff<BR>
>over so long a period, I guess it's inevitable. Hopefully, whatever the<BR>
>disagreement(s) is/are, they'll be sorted out soon.<BR>
<BR>
It is a shame, but I don't see the issue being resolved.<BR>
<BR>
Remember, GDW, and subsequentially FarFuture Enterprises own the <BR>
rights to Traveller.<BR>
<BR>
Other companies work under license (including Steve Jackson Games, <BR>
BITS, Imperium Games, Seeker, FASA, Judges Guild, DGP etc).<BR>
<BR>
The game, and background, are Marc's.<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2000 23:42:29 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Starports<BR>
<BR>
At 17:03 -0400 2/4/00, Jesse DeGraff <jdegraff@pacbell.net> wrote:<BR>
> > I guessed that from the photos from your shooting trip. ;-)<BR>
>Is it that obvious?  ;)<BR>
<BR>
At least one of the photos from the shooting trip is from behind with <BR>
you wearing a cap. It's the hair ;-)<BR>
<BR>
> > the same area of space. We actually started on a FFS2 design, and I<BR>
> > started drawing in CAD, but the thing was enormous.<BR>
><BR>
>Cool.<BR>
<BR>
We use Intergraph CAD (Microstation SE) at work, and I actually <BR>
crashed it because the memory got eaten by it....<BR>
<BR>
>The light goes "DING!"  Those aren't battleRIDERS, they're battleSHIPS!<BR>
>200,000DT BL15's from "Shattered Ships", er, "Fighting Ships of the<BR>
>Shattered Imperium" (THANKS AGAIN WILLIAM, IF YOU'RE OUT THERE STILL!!!!!!)<BR>
>One of 'em is also going to be on the <fnord> cover ;)<BR>
<BR>
If it is on the third part of the triumvate I hope that it is firing <BR>
it's main weapons - the shot looked really cool on your website. I <BR>
now have a couple of your shots as backdrops on my workstation at <BR>
work, and a few people asked what film they were from ;-)<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 02 Apr 2000 16:12:08 -0700<BR>
From: Jesse DeGraff <jdegraff@pacbell.net><BR>
Subject: RE: Starports<BR>
<BR>
> At least one of the photos from the shooting trip is from behind with <BR>
> you wearing a cap. It's the hair ;-)<BR>
<BR>
Or lack thereof ;)<BR>
<BR>
> We use Intergraph CAD (Microstation SE) at work, and I actually <BR>
> crashed it because the memory got eaten by it....<BR>
<BR>
Heh heh!<BR>
 <BR>
> If it is on the third part of the triumvate I hope that it is firing <BR>
> it's main weapons - the shot looked really cool on your website. I <BR>
> now have a couple of your shots as backdrops on my workstation at <BR>
> work, and a few people asked what film they were from ;-)<BR>
> <BR>
> Dom<BR>
<BR>
No film......<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
......Yet<BR>
<BR>
>:D<BR>
Jesse<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2000 01:33:57 +0100<BR>
From: "Matthew Bond" <mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: New Madrid Fault<BR>
<BR>
Michael Houghton wrote:<BR>
>Doug G wrote:<BR>
>> I thought that Yellowstone was a geothermal uplift, going to be a volcano<BR>
in<BR>
>> about 50,000 years or so. Likewise the Hot Springs, Arkansas, where the<BR>
>> diamond mine is (although the period on that one is supposed to be about<BR>
>> 100,000 years).<BR>
>><BR>
>Hmmm... I thought Yellowstone was the remains of a volcano (complete with<BR>
>collapsed caldera). The yellow stuff is volcanic crud; the heat source for<BR>
>all the fun bits is the remains of the magma blob.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
I saw a program about it a couple of months ago, an episode of Horizon<BR>
called Supervolcanoes.<BR>
<BR>
Basically, about 10km below Yellowstone is a magma chamber 20km deep by<BR>
about 40km diameter. Yikes!<BR>
<BR>
This last erupted 600ky bp (ky bp = thousand years before present). Some<BR>
people are saying that it is due to go off again soon, as it is already<BR>
overdue. IMHO they are basing their estimate on very dubious maths.<BR>
<BR>
It has erupted three times in the past. ~2My bp, ~1.2My bp, and ~600ky bp.<BR>
Thus the gap between eruptions was ~800ky, then ~600ky. An average (on a<BR>
*very* small sample size...) of ~700ky.  So yes, it is still active (parts<BR>
of Yellowstone are being uplifted at ~1cm per year). Yes, it *could* go off<BR>
at anytime. But to say that it is overdue....? No.<BR>
<BR>
Now, if it hasn't gone off in another 100ky,  *then* I'll start to worry.<BR>
<g><BR>
<BR>
Matt<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2238<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2239</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
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Traveller-digest       Monday, April 3 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2239<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Life Support<BR>
The Landgrab - Cipatwe/Rhylanor<BR>
Re: Stories in the printed copy of New Scientist which relate to Traveller<BR>
Re: Playtest<BR>
Re: Notes on building Heya<BR>
Re: RS<BR>
Re: Draft thought on Ochetate<BR>
re: Notes on Building Heya<BR>
Re: TL/Pixie<BR>
Dave Hyphen is channelling me<BR>
OT: No Mac software? What's all this, then?<BR>
May interest Traveller players<BR>
Re: Stories in the printed copy of New Scientist which relate  toTraveller<BR>
Re: Stellar Data question..<BR>
Re: Association of Several Steves<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2000 01:53:23 +0100<BR>
From: "Matthew Bond" <mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: Life Support<BR>
<BR>
Of course, it *is* canon that many worlds are *not* self-sustaining. <BR>
<BR>
Just look at Hard Times for Doomed and Failing worlds...<BR>
<BR>
Matt<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 02 Apr 2000 19:36:02 -0500<BR>
From: "Kevin C. Carpenter" <teruiki@swbell.net><BR>
Subject: The Landgrab - Cipatwe/Rhylanor<BR>
<BR>
Cipatwe/Rhylanor<BR>
<BR>
Since I was in the process of developing it already, and no one else seems<BR>
to have claimed it, I'll go ahead and grab it. Has there been anything<BR>
terribly important written about it other than the enigmatic description<BR>
given in BtC? I haven't seen any myself, though I did notice that they<BR>
decided to drop the population by about 8,400,000,000 to 60,000,000 in the<BR>
errata listing. I was wondering how that many people lived on a TL6<BR>
waterworld....<BR>
<BR>
- - Kevin C. Carpenter<BR>
kccarpenter@swbell.net<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2000 23:01:14 EDT<BR>
From: Damage169@cs.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Stories in the printed copy of New Scientist which relate to Traveller<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 4/1/00 6:06:48 PM Central Daylight Time, <BR>
owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
> Minor problem with this. If we can find them so easily with ground based<BR>
>  TL7 sensors, the Navy won't be able to keep them a secret at TL12. <BR>
>  <BR>
>  Not when _hobbyist_ astronomers can put sensors in orbit that make the HST<BR>
>  or the Keck scopes look as crude as Galileo's first model...<BR>
>  <BR>
<BR>
Not necessarily. I have a feeling that astronomy as a science will become a <BR>
great deal more like archaeology in the TU, becoming more of a field science <BR>
that currently. Why put up a million credit satellite or build a <BR>
multi-million credit ground-based sensor when for a lot less money you can <BR>
actually _go there_? Say a Terran astronomer is interested in observing the <BR>
Alpha Centauri system. For Cr. 10,000 he can purchase a high-passage ticket <BR>
and actually go to the system. If he gets funding from a university or <BR>
megacorporation, he can even hire/lease/purchase a lab ship outfitted his <BR>
specific requirements and travel to anywhere he might be interested in. For <BR>
this reason, most planet- or orbital-based astronomical observatories are <BR>
probably going to be specifically designed to observe their own systems' star <BR>
(for solar flares or other irregularities), if they've got any observatories <BR>
at all.<BR>
<BR>
The closest thing to a traditional observatory might be one where it is <BR>
impossible to establish one in the observed system for safety's sake, like <BR>
trying to set up an orbital observatory around a pulsar. The radiation from <BR>
the pulsar would most likely destroy anything within several lightyears of <BR>
it, but an observatory set up a parsec or two away would be both perfectly <BR>
safe and close enough that sensors dwarfing those on the Donosev series could <BR>
almost count the star's atoms. <BR>
<BR>
Of course, YMMV.<BR>
<BR>
Doug G.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2000 06:10:07 +0200<BR>
From: Ingo Heinscher <Hiroshi.Estigarribia@gmx.de><BR>
Subject: Re: Playtest<BR>
<BR>
At 15:51 02.04.00 EDT, GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:<BR>
>In a message dated 00-04-02 00:49:17 EST, you write:<BR>
><BR>
><< I've heard a rumor that playtesting of GT materials is to be taken<BR>
> loiterally, i.e. that it is merely commenting on parts of the<BR>
> publicaztions-to-be, but no actual playtesting. Since I am not a Pyramid<BR>
> subscriber, I simply don't know. >><BR>
><BR>
>General advice: Never believe rumors. Rumors killed GDW, more than any<BR>
single <BR>
>factor.<BR>
<BR>
Which sounds like an interesting story... how did GDW go down?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
"This was not meant to be an aggresssion against the Siru Zirka. But we had<BR>
to organize our affairs a bit more efficiently. To be honest, we have had<BR>
to do this for almost 300 years by now."<BR>
unknown Terran politician, -2398 Imp<BR>
;-) ingo heinscher <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2000 07:52:22 +0200 (METDST)<BR>
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk><BR>
Subject: Re: Notes on building Heya<BR>
<BR>
Chris Seamans writes:<BR>
<BR>
>>If 60 million people were growing enough food to feed 36 bilion people and<BR>
>>selling it at a tiny markup, they would all be millionaires. The reason<BR>
>>why this does not happen is, IMO, that 60 million people cannon grow enough<BR>
>>food to feed 36 billion people. YMMV.<BR>
> <BR>
>My mileage certainly does vary. In the U.S., an astonishingly small amount<BR>
>of people make enough food for the whole country, not to mention a healthy<BR>
>export business to other countries. If I remember correctly, under 5% of<BR>
>Americans are involved in farming. <BR>
<BR>
That is a factor 1:20 at TL 7. I'm perfectly ready to accept that one farmer<BR>
can produce enough food to feed 20 people at TL 7 even though the only rules<BR>
I know of puts it somewhat lower (According to _World Tamer's Handbook_ 4<BR>
farmers (actually, 1 farmers and 3 dependents) can produce enough food to<BR>
feed 25 people at TL 7). The figures above works out at 1:6,000 at TL 5.<BR>
That I'm not prepared to believe.<BR>
<BR>
>From what I understand, societies with lower tech levels have to dedicate a<BR>
>larger segment of the population just to feed themselves (around about 50%<BR>
or so). <BR>
<BR>
In medieval setups (TTL 1) at least 80% of the population is rural. Of course,<BR>
'rural' includes the village blacksmith and the parish priest.<BR>
<BR>
>I'm not sure what Traveller TL this would happen at, exactly, because the<BR>
>decrease has been gradual over a number of years.<BR>
<BR>
TL 5 corresponds to pre-WWII IIRC.<BR>
<BR>
>Should your argument be applied to other areas? Should industrial planets<BR>
>have their capabilities "cut" because they'd make too much money?<BR>
<BR>
Only if you suggest that Industrial planets produce an unrealistically large<BR>
number of industrial goods.<BR>
 <BR>
>>>Would it be reasonable to allow 100 people to be fed from each TL 5<BR>
>>>farmer under these conditions?<BR>
>><BR>
>>It would take an unusually useful local plant, but why not? One, hopefully,<BR>
>>that can't be transplanted to other worlds.<BR>
> <BR>
>It wouldn't take an unusually useful local plant, just a lot of space and<BR>
>decent growing conditions. Whether or not the plant can be transplanted to<BR>
>other worlds is irrelevant.<BR>
<BR>
For the purpose of this discussion, yes. But it would be such a useful plant<BR>
that if it could be transplanted, it would supplant most other crops unless<BR>
there were other problems with it.<BR>
<BR>
>>>if they were the sole source of food.  Given the huge (and stable) demand<BR>
>>>for food, it would not be a stretch to assume that a large portion of<BR>
>>>Heyans are farmers,<BR>
>><BR>
>>TL 5 is industrial technology. You need more than farmers to grow food. You<BR>
>>need the whole underpinning of their society. Industrial workers,<BR>
>>educators, administrators, entertainers...<BR>
><BR>
>Not really. There are a number of low-tech societies in the real world that<BR>
>seem to manage just fine by importing high-tech farming equipment and<BR>
>supplies. If there is as much money involved as you seem to think, then<BR>
>surely Heya would be able to import the best equipment and personnel to<BR>
>train them in the use of that equipment, to repair it, and so on. <BR>
<BR>
In which case Heya would be a higher TL. Even though this isn't stated<BR>
explicitly anywhere, it is implicit in quite a lot of rules. For instance,<BR>
economic output is always based on the given TL of the planet. If Heya's<BR>
TL was effectively higher, its economic output would be based on that<BR>
higher TL, regadless of whether or not it could be maintained locally.<BR>
<BR>
In any case, that still doesn't account for all the tertiary occupations.<BR>
<BR>
>This wouldn't necessarily go hand in hand with an increase in the tech level<BR>
>of the planet, for the obvious reason that this rating is somewhat abstract.<BR>
<BR>
I disagree.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
      Hans Rancke<BR>
University of Copenhagen<BR>
     rancke@diku.dk<BR>
- ------------<BR>
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent<BR>
         events based on the individual situation."<BR>
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2000 08:20:38 +0200 (METDST)<BR>
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk><BR>
Subject: Re: RS<BR>
<BR>
Kurt Brown writes:<BR>
<BR>
>It's a shame that there have to be disagreements like this re:<BR>
>Traveller, but when you have so many publishers writing so much stuff<BR>
>over so long a period, I guess it's inevitable. <BR>
<BR>
Actually, I've never ceased wondering how it can possibly be anything but<BR>
implicit in any legitimate use of a shared world (in the sense that more<BR>
than one person writes in it) that the ideas expressed in said writing<BR>
may be referenced by other writers also writing (legitimate) work set in<BR>
that world. I'm talking about background references, of course, not<BR>
quoting verbatim (though in the case of Library Data, I'd would expect<BR>
that to be permissible too). I'm not saying I don't believe it, I'm just<BR>
saying I don't understand it.<BR>
<BR>
I know that Roger Sanger has acknowledged Marc Miller's right to use DGP<BR>
references, so I suppose the problem is third party use. Like GT material.<BR>
:-( :-( :-(<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
      Hans Rancke<BR>
University of Copenhagen<BR>
     rancke@diku.dk<BR>
- ------------<BR>
        "Kettelman bristled. Nothing got him angrier than when<BR>
         people implied that he was paranoid. It made him feel<BR>
         persecuted."<BR>
                                --Robert Sheckley<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2000 08:50:12 +0200 (METDST)<BR>
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk><BR>
Subject: Re: Draft thought on Ochetate<BR>
<BR>
The correct spelling is Ochecate.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
      Hans Rancke<BR>
University of Copenhagen<BR>
     rancke@diku.dk<BR>
- ------------<BR>
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent<BR>
         events based on the individual situation."<BR>
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2000 02:59:00 -0400 <BR>
From: "Smith, Walter" <SmithW@hartwick.edu><BR>
Subject: re: Notes on Building Heya<BR>
<BR>
Here's an idea, if the thought of TL 5 farmers feeding a thousand or<BR>
so people each seems wrong: There are two Heyas.<BR>
<BR>
Heya, tech level 5, independent homesteaders, each of them has been here <BR>
for generations. Insular, and always keeping a wary eye on the <BR>
thousands (hundreds of thousands?) of inhabitants of the "Other Heya".<BR>
<BR>
The "Other Heya": tech level 9 or better, contract laborers working<BR>
large tracts of fertile land outside the homesteaded areas. Choice<BR>
tracts of Heyan real estate, perhaps the best on the planet, locked up<BR>
in long-term (or perpetual!) leases to off-world megacorps, or to the <BR>
governments of the nearby high-pop planets themselves. <BR>
<BR>
Perhaps the leases were a condition placed upon the loans that<BR>
funded the colony.<BR>
<BR>
Therefore we'll have massive tracts of land on Heya being farmed<BR>
with stellar-level technology, manned by a population kept <BR>
deliberately transient. They'll have maintenance capabilities<BR>
for their farm machinery, but it won't be accessible to traders<BR>
and travellers.  This should increase the Heyan food output by <BR>
quite a bit.<BR>
<BR>
And as for all that grain making the Heyans millionaires: those<BR>
megaton grain freighters won't be picking up truckloads here and<BR>
there from Heya's homesteader farmers...they'll be sending down<BR>
specialized grain shuttles to the custom-built grain elevators<BR>
of the company farms. A Heyan homesteader will seldom see one<BR>
of these shuttles, much less trade food with one.<BR>
<BR>
Just a possibility...<BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2000 09:21:51 +0200 (METDST)<BR>
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk><BR>
Subject: Re: TL/Pixie<BR>
<BR>
Peter Trevorwrites:<BR>
<BR>
>Hans Rancke-Madsen wrote:<BR>
>>There are plenty of worlds with a TL level that they just CAN'T<BR>
>>maintain on their own because they don't have enough people to<BR>
>>run all the necessary parts.<BR>
> <BR>
>The UPP population figure represents permanent residents only (no<BR>
>transient population).<BR>
<BR>
This is one of the explanations that has been used in the past to explain<BR>
odd population figures, not an incontrovertible fact. In many cases it<BR>
makes no sense and the example you chose, Pixie, is one of them. <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>To illustrate: (IIRC) Pixie/Regina has practically no  population but is<BR>
>TL15 with a class A starport.<BR>
<BR>
TL 13.<BR>
<BR>
>How can this be? The low UPP factor was described (I forget where) as a<BR>
>handful of miners roaming over Pixie's surface scratching out a living.<BR>
<BR>
I don't recall any such reference. BtC says that they are a tiny population<BR>
of belters (in which case the main world should be the belt, but let that<BR>
lie. Anyway, miners or belters, they count as permanent residents as opposed<BR>
to the shipyard workers and the navy base personnel exactly how? Unless they<BR>
intend to stay on Pixie till the day they die, such miners are just as<BR>
transient. The only way I can see them counting as permanent is if they are<BR>
able to charge the transients rent on the land they use.<BR>
<BR>
>However, Pixie is also the location of a major shipbuilding facility<BR>
>producing L-Hyd drop tanks. The factory workers were contractors<BR>
>or on 6 month rotation (etc) and thus classified as transient ...<BR>
>and thus not counted in Pixie's UPP.<BR>
<BR>
>The thing is, this 'explanation' doesn't really explain anything, it just<BR>
>replaces one question with another. If the workers really commute, it adds<BR>
>to the cost of building starships. If they build drop tanks here instead<BR>
of in Regina, the tanks have to be transported to Regina adding further to<BR>
the cost. Therefore there must be some percieved benefit to the setup that<BR>
outweighs the disadvantages. What?<BR>
<BR>
>And Ian Ferguson writes:<BR>
<BR>
>Pixie is one of those worlds that gets Traveller GMs thinking up stories.<BR>
<BR>
Which is a good thing if you can come up with something that works. I just<BR>
don't think that all random UWPs can be explained away.<BR>
<BR>
>IIRC it is TL 13 in 1105, with a Pop 0 (up to 90), Starport A, and an<BR>
>Imperial Naval Base (is there an IWS there as well?). I put about 90% of<BR>
>the residents at the starport, with a lot of robotic assistants.<BR>
<BR>
But if this is an economically sound setup, most starports would be run by<BR>
a few people with lots of robotic assistants. Do you think this is the<BR>
case? If not, why not? What makes Pixie worth the added expense of a lot<BR>
of robotic assistants? An explanation that begs the question is no good<BR>
at all, IMO.<BR>
<BR>
>Although technically a class A starport, only very small starships can be<BR>
>manufactured <BR>
<BR>
Up to 600 T ships IIRC. Which according to the rules in TCS requires a<BR>
population of 600,000. Now, I could see a 'one-crop' world that earned<BR>
it's living by building starships making do with maybe one tenth of<BR>
that. And I could see a dedicated shipyard that was subsidized from<BR>
outside, ferrying in sub-components and assembling them get by with<BR>
maybe a tenth of that[*]. But 90 people? I don't believe it. <BR>
<BR>
[*] I just don't see why anyone would set one up on Pixie.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
      Hans Rancke<BR>
University of Copenhagen<BR>
     rancke@diku.dk<BR>
- ------------<BR>
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent<BR>
         events based on the individual situation."<BR>
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 05:55:04 +1000<BR>
From: "Karen and Michael Hughes" <kmhughes@dynamite.com.au><BR>
Subject: Dave Hyphen is channelling me<BR>
<BR>
<Michael throws his head back then speaks in a dull monotone><BR>
<BR>
Dear Folks -<BR>
<BR>
I have published the following updates to Beowulf Down:<BR>
     - added The Spinward Marches Campaign historical maps<BR>
       (pp 14-15 of the SMC) to the Tavonni Repair Bays;<BR>
     - added an animated GIF of the 8 SMC historical maps (crude but<BR>
       effective) to the same place;<BR>
     - added Menelvagor (including a logo!) to the Tavonni Specialties;<BR>
     - added various "Imported Goods" (in the old DGP equipment format)<BR>
       under Menelvagor, such as:<BR>
          - FOUR different types of battledress (for MT);<BR>
          - an automated medikit (for MT).<BR>
<BR>
The maps should be of interest to the TML Land-Grab participants. Colin,<BR>
feel<BR>
free to add a link from your page to my site (er, if you want to, that is).<BR>
<BR>
The equipment sheets are zipped Word97 documents. I'm going to add a blank<BR>
template as well, when I get a round tuit. I hope you like them!<BR>
<BR>
Personally, I'm still waiting for Jesse to build his vacc-formed<BR>
battledress...<BR>
;-)<BR>
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)<BR>
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au<BR>
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"<BR>
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those<BR>
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the<BR>
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.<BR>
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2000 04:08:00 EDT<BR>
From: GypsyComet@aol.com<BR>
Subject: OT: No Mac software? What's all this, then?<BR>
<BR>
"Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com> sez:<BR>
<BR>
>> Why do people always assume there is no Mac Software?<BR>
><BR>
>Because salesfolk *lie* to them...<BR>
><BR>
 <BR>
 Hey! _I_ don't lie about Mac software.<BR>
<BR>
 But then, I work in an all-Mac chain of stores...<BR>
<BR>
 http://www.macsource.com/<BR>
<BR>
GC<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2000 11:20:24 +0100<BR>
From: "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk><BR>
Subject: May interest Traveller players<BR>
<BR>
I play in a commercial PBM game (I do everything by email, so you could call<BR>
it a PBEM these days) called Beyond the Green Sun, which may appeal to<BR>
pocket empire builders.<BR>
<BR>
Players design their own species or culture with important traits like<BR>
gravity tolernace and combat aptitude bought with a points pool. They start<BR>
with a few production units, a few million people and some basic technology.<BR>
<BR>
After that it's pocket empires stuff - spend resources on research for<BR>
better tech or to build things like more mining plants, exploration ships or<BR>
big guns.<BR>
<BR>
Tech gives specific units: Gravity Lenses, Shields, Passive Detection<BR>
Systems, but it is up to the player to design ships which use these items.<BR>
One big expensive ship may not be as useful as several light armed scouts.<BR>
Then again, it might.<BR>
<BR>
The game is open-ended, meaning that many options can be explored. Setting<BR>
up solar farms and asteroid mining operations, colonising systems,<BR>
investigating spacial anomalies, meeting aliens, space combat, planetary<BR>
invasions....<BR>
<BR>
You get the idea. I think Traveller players will like it.<BR>
<BR>
I've been playing the original game since 1988, and the new version still<BR>
fascinates me.<BR>
<BR>
For details, contact the referee, Nic Best at nickel@globalnet.co.uk<BR>
<BR>
Regards<BR>
<BR>
MJD<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2000 07:59:19 -0300<BR>
From: Brian Quirt <baqrt@mta.ca><BR>
Subject: Re: Stories in the printed copy of New Scientist which relate  toTraveller<BR>
<BR>
Damage169@cs.com wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> Not necessarily. I have a feeling that astronomy as a science will become a<BR>
> great deal more like archaeology in the TU, becoming more of a field science<BR>
> that currently. Why put up a million credit satellite or build a<BR>
> multi-million credit ground-based sensor when for a lot less money you can<BR>
> actually _go there_? Say a Terran astronomer is interested in observing the<BR>
> Alpha Centauri system. For Cr. 10,000 he can purchase a high-passage ticket<BR>
> and actually go to the system. If he gets funding from a university or<BR>
> megacorporation, he can even hire/lease/purchase a lab ship outfitted his<BR>
> specific requirements and travel to anywhere he might be interested in. For<BR>
> this reason, most planet- or orbital-based astronomical observatories are<BR>
> probably going to be specifically designed to observe their own systems' star<BR>
> (for solar flares or other irregularities), if they've got any observatories<BR>
> at all.<BR>
<BR>
	Alternately, it depends on what you're observing. I think that the<BR>
astronomers investigating (say) globular clusters will still want<BR>
telescopes (BIG telescopes, 100,000km+ distributed arrays, but still<BR>
telescopes), as even at Jump 6 it takes awhile to cover a few thousand<BR>
lightyears (globular clusters (at least the nearest ones) are outside<BR>
the galaxy). Same goes for people whose specialty is galaxies, or<BR>
quasars, or....<BR>
	Come to think of it, the same would probably go for anyone wanting to<BR>
study supernovas - I can't see being on site to observe one of those.<BR>
And, of course, your (sadly deleted) point about pulsars fits in well<BR>
with this.<BR>
<BR>
	-Brian Quirt<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2000 01:40:33 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Stellar Data question..<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) wrote<BR>
><BR>
>>> For a world on a main in a high pop sector such a world might be only a <BR>
>>> week<BR>
>>> from a number of sources of TL10 items.<BR>
><BR>
>> Try again.<BR>
>> Something goes wrong. *Assuming there's a ship available*, it'll take<BR>
>> the ship a week to get to *any* other system. Assuming that it takes<BR>
>> *no* time to find or load the parts, and to refuel the ship, it'lll be<BR>
>> *another* week before it gets back. <BR>
>> That's two weeks *minimum*. Any kind of problem means further delay.<BR>
>> And while it isn't *likely*, what if the ship misjumps? Or there's no<BR>
>> ship in port, and no scheduled runs.<BR>
><BR>
> You seem to be assuming that parts have to be special ordered <BR>
> which is not always the case. Let's say that our planet has <BR>
> 500,000 people. These people live in 200,000 households. Each <BR>
> of these households needs a TL 10 air circulation pump. The <BR>
> pumps have a mean life span of a little less than 40 years,<BR>
> we'll call it a 2,000 week life span. Therefore every week<BR>
> this planet will need 100 pumps. The importer on this world<BR>
> simply places a standing order for 400 pumps per trip to be<BR>
> shipped, as cargo, on a subsidized liner that makes the round<BR>
> trip between the two planets every month. (One week in jump,<BR>
> 2nd week on TL 10 planet, 3rd week in jump to TL 6 planet,<BR>
> 4th week on TL 6 planet, and repeat.)<BR>
<BR>
Why would the *households* need them? The setup is apt to be far closer<BR>
to an overgrown apartment building/mall that to a bunch of indivudual<BR>
"houses". <BR>
<BR>
You don't reprocess air or water in individual dwellings, as that's<BR>
*way* inefficient. Though households will likely have emergency air<BR>
supplies. <BR>
<BR>
As a contemporary analog, think of you city's water and swer system.<BR>
Unless it's *really* small, the city deals with it, not the<BR>
home/building owners. All *they* have to do is keep the plumbing in<BR>
repair. <BR>
<BR>
> Lets say our planet has 500 people living in 200 households<BR>
> with the same TL 10 2,000 week lifespan air pumps. One<BR>
> pump will fail every 10 weeks. The single local store will<BR>
> carry about two or three in stock and reorder one when the <BR>
> first one sells.<BR>
<BR>
That works for *household* items. The situation is a lot different for<BR>
municipal systems. What does your local water deptartment do if a<BR>
holding/processing tank springs a leak? Or if one of the pumps that<BR>
handles a major branche line fails (there's a *reason* most water<BR>
systems are set up to run on gravity feed whenever possible). <BR>
<BR>
>> > Compare it to living anywhere on<BR>
>> > Earth now. A small town in the Midwest might be TL5 as far as local<BR>
>> > manufacture and the majority of local technology, but people's homes all<BR>
>> > have a TL7 computer, CD player or HDTV, all of which are made somewhere <BR>
> else<BR>
>> > and shipped into said town, from  places sometimes farther away (in time<BR>
>> > traveled) than a few parsecs.<BR>
><BR>
>> But how many of those are *necessary*? How many will doom you to a slow<BR>
>> and painful death if they fail and you can't fix them.<BR>
>> Also, consider that it's been more than 50 years since there *was*<BR>
>> anywhere on Earth that was a two week round trip from needed supplies.<BR>
><BR>
> No it has not. There are parts of the Earth (arctic) that<BR>
> even today are out of supply range for periods of over two<BR>
> weeks, see below.<BR>
<BR>
The difference is that they can still *communicate*. So even if they<BR>
can't be reached, they can get advice, and they know where things stand.<BR>
<BR>
>> That is, there may have been such places, but they didn't *depend* on<BR>
>> outside supplies.<BR>
><BR>
> On Earth they lived in places where they did not have to worry <BR>
> about the air going bad but some lived in places where they did <BR>
> have to worry about running out of food. In some places in the <BR>
> sub arctic and arctic whole communities (of European Americans who <BR>
> were less competent at gathering local food than the natives were) <BR>
> relied on ships that could only dock during the short (one to <BR>
> two month) ice free periods. <BR>
<BR>
And they did their damndest to *be* self-sufficient in anything they<BR>
*could*. <BR>
<BR>
>> Assume you live in the Midwest. Say North Dakota. It's midwinter, the<BR>
>> drifts are 10 feet high. And your town loses power. <BR>
><BR>
> What do you need power for?<BR>
<BR>
I'm assuming a "typical" house/building. You need power or the damn<BR>
*furnace* doesn't work!<BR>
<BR>
> You do not need it for heat or light. The Inupiat successfully<BR>
> built (at TL 0) homes which were hot (80 F +) inside when <BR>
> it was -40 outside using only a single seal oil lamp, three <BR>
> to four inches across, for heat and light. Admittedly the <BR>
> Inupiat lived in closer quarters than our TL 6 people are <BR>
> likely to be comfortable with doing.<BR>
<BR>
Yeah, but *we* don't build houses that way. And worse, most modern<BR>
building have no provision to be heated by anything *but* the furnace<BR>
(at least not *safely*). <BR>
<BR>
> If you need power for an air pump then you presumably do<BR>
> have a lower tech back up. If I had to design a low tech<BR>
> back up for an air pump, and assuming I had no local back up<BR>
> power source (generator, solar, geothermal, battery, whatever),<BR>
> I would probably use a TL 4 bicycle powered generator or a<BR>
> TL 1 treadmill.<BR>
<BR>
I was using the *current* situation in most of the US as an analogy. If<BR>
*we* lose power, we lose heat, which is why many people have<BR>
generators of fireplaces. And those with neither get shifted into<BR>
places that *can* be kept livable until the power comes back. At least<BR>
for the few days it usually takes.<BR>
<BR>
But if it took two weeks *every* time the power went out, we'd build<BR>
differently, we'd have better backup systems, and we'd likely want at<BR>
least *some* of the grid to be both more "localized", and repairable<BR>
from parts on hand or with tools on hand.<BR>
<BR>
>> Now picture the results if it takes AT LEAST *two weeks* to get *any*<BR>
>> outside aid. No air drops. <BR>
><BR>
> Some places in Alaska are like this today.<BR>
><BR>
> Harsh weather in Arctic reasons is known to stop air transport<BR>
> to communities for well over two weeks. Almost every winter<BR>
> I see an article in the local paper that a town in the Alaskan<BR>
> bush (population 300 or so) has been unable to get any air<BR>
> transport in three months and some supplies are running a<BR>
> little low, it's a good thing they brought in all their heating <BR>
> oil by barge during the summer.<BR>
<BR>
Right. They *know* that they can be cut off for that long. So they make<BR>
provisions for it. And I bet they don't have a lot of gear that they<BR>
both can't live without, and that can't either be fixed with tools on<BR>
hand, or with relatively *cheap* parts on hand. <BR>
<BR>
Even so, the mere fact that they can make contact by radio make the<BR>
situation different. Because the radio means that if they *really* get<BR>
into trouble, folks will attempt to fly in marginal weather, or even<BR>
come cross country. <BR>
<BR>
It's *different* when the means of transport *are* the means of<BR>
communication. For that, you have to go back before radio, or even back<BR>
before the *telegraph* in most places.<BR>
<BR>
>> No people on the phone or radio suggesting ways of coping <BR>
>> (of fixing the problem) that you may not have thought of.<BR>
><BR>
> Few Alaskan bush communities have this problem now but most<BR>
> did less than 20 years ago.<BR>
<BR>
They had radio telephone setups in most of them quite a bit before<BR>
that, didn't they? At least that's the impression I got back in the 60s<BR>
(and in stuff from the 50s). After WWII surplus radios pretty much<BR>
ensured that anyplace that wanted to be in contact could be.<BR>
<BR>
>> Of yeah, no way in *hell* do you have two weeks of fuel that can be<BR>
>> used *without* power.<BR>
><BR>
>> Now, if you *know* this, you either *will* have supplies enough to keep<BR>
>> going at a lower TL until help arrives, or you'll make *damn* sure that<BR>
>> you can do a complete rebuild of the power plant with parts, tools and<BR>
>> skills on hand.<BR>
><BR>
> Yes that is what _I_ would do but the Hard Times supplement<BR>
> clearly canonically establishes that this is _not_ what<BR>
> people in the Imperium did. The doomed and failing worlds<BR>
> were able to hold on for years but they eventually failed<BR>
> because these settlements could not hold out without outside<BR>
> technology.<BR>
<BR>
Some *will* fail. Maybe even a *lot*. But between the "normal"<BR>
occurence of accidents and stories out of the Long Night, I just don't<BR>
see *most* planets, much less *all* of them being so stupid as to not<BR>
take precautions. <BR>
<BR>
And of course, "Hard Times" lasted far longer than it is "reasonable"<BR>
to expect to be cut off. To use your Alaskan example, They *should*<BR>
expect to be cut off for 3 months fairly often. So they stock things<BR>
accordingly, and probably use some gear that they wouldn't if they had<BR>
more regular contact. Big, heavy "crude" gas, and even *steam* engines<BR>
are found frequently in places like this. Because they are *rugged*,<BR>
and *simple*. A *blacksmith* can repair just about any part other than<BR>
the actual "cylinder".<BR>
  <BR>
>> Again, if the world can't re*build* it locally, they'll stick to life<BR>
>> support tech that they can. Even two weeks would be no picnic. A month?<BR>
>> I don't even want to *think* about it.<BR>
><BR>
> People in extreme arctic climates make plans for this sort<BR>
> of problem even now. I would not want to live in the bush<BR>
> myself but I know plenty of people who do.<BR>
<BR>
Right. They generally stick to gear they can fix. If they *need* the<BR>
gear, and it just plain *can't* be fixed locally if it breaks, they<BR>
stock spare parts. And always, *lots* of batteries and fuel. <BR>
<BR>
There's a *reason* dog sleds, snow shoes, and cross-country skis are<BR>
still around in spite of the sno-cat and snowmobile.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2000 02:13:43 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Association of Several Steves<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> ObTrav: A character's name is very similar or identical to another guest in<BR>
> the TAs hostel, resulting in that character getting the wrong messages from<BR>
> the front desk...<BR>
<BR>
I can top that. <BR>
<BR>
I had a *real* problem with mail when I moved into this apartment. You<BR>
see, the former occupant had the *same* last name as I do. And since<BR>
the Post Awful files address changes by a code based on last name and<BR>
adress, it is *impossible* to get reliable handling in such a<BR>
situation. <BR>
<BR>
The first time I tried a "not at this address" with regard to Ms. Gwen<BR>
Erickson's mail, I stopped getting *my* mail. I *still* get the<BR>
occasional item for her. <BR>
<BR>
Just picture the fun if this happens to one of the PCs.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2239<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2240</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
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Traveller-digest       Monday, April 3 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2240<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Starports<BR>
RE: free-floating planets<BR>
Re: GMSound Software<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2215<BR>
Re: Stories in the printed copy of New Scientist which relate to Traveller<BR>
District 268 Canon<BR>
Re: Stories in the printed copy of New Scientist which relate toTraveller<BR>
Hard Times (was re: Re: Stellar Data question)<BR>
Re: Stellar Data question..<BR>
Re: TL/Pixie<BR>
Re: GDW boardgames<BR>
RE: Dave Hyphen is channelling me<BR>
Re: Association of Several Steves<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2000 03:09:40 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Starports<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> We use Intergraph CAD (Microstation SE) at work, and I actually <BR>
> crashed it because the memory got eaten by it....<BR>
<BR>
Too weird. One of my system is an "old" Intergraph TD-3 (90). I'm using<BR>
it for a server and it "only" has 148 meg in it (the SIMMs to bring it<BR>
to the max of 192 are on order)<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2000 12:28:32 +0100<BR>
From: "Mark Preston" <mark@mpreston.demon.co.uk><BR>
Subject: RE: free-floating planets<BR>
<BR>
IMHO, there is a very good chance they are right and have found<BR>
free-floating planets. Remember, we all accept the brown dwarfs now,<BR>
but it isn't that many years ago that they were derided. Also<BR>
remember, brown dwarfs are super-Jovian planets rather than stars -<BR>
the planets they claim to have found were smaller, although still in<BR>
the Jovian class, and were identified by mass calculation rather than<BR>
by spectral analysis.<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Bruce<BR>
> Macintosh<BR>
> Sent: 01 April 2000 21:35<BR>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> Subject: Re: free-floating planets<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> >The Drifters - a report on the discovery of 25 free<BR>
> floating planets<BR>
[snip]<BR>
><BR>
> My professional opinion is that this is probably wrong;<BR>
> they've underestimated<BR>
> the effects of how much dimmer and more red dust absorption makes<BR>
> normal background stars look, and classified a bunch of<BR>
> background stars<BR>
> as planets/brown dwarfs.<BR>
><BR>
[snip]<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2000 03:12:23 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: GMSound Software<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Via electronic medium on 3/29/00 9:38 AM, dom@cybergoths.u-net.com issued<BR>
> forth:<BR>
><BR>
>> Why do people always assume there is no Mac Software?<BR>
><BR>
> Because salesfolk *lie* to them. They point out the shelves of Win-Doze ware<BR>
> and say "Look at all the stuff!" Then they point at the Mac section and note<BR>
> how small the selection is. But I want to know just how many word<BR>
> processors, paint programs, data bases, etc. one really needs. I have yet to<BR>
> find something I can not do on my Mac, other than run /specific/ programs.<BR>
> And an emulator will handle that, so I'm happy.<BR>
<BR>
I still prefer PCs. But under *DOS*, not this GUI stuff...<BR>
<BR>
I have nothing against *text-based* windowing systems. But unless I'm<BR>
running a graphics app, wasting CPU on generating graphics is *stupid*.<BR>
<BR>
> ObTrav: Salesfolk *lie* to PC's. All the time. About any product. GM's<BR>
> should keep equipment statistics to themselves and tell the players what<BR>
> they have in /their/ terms, not game stats.<BR>
<BR>
Q: What's the difference between a used car salesmand and a computer salseman?<BR>
A: The used car salesman *knows* when he is lying...<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2000 03:29:10 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2215<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Via electronic medium on 3/30/00 5:42 AM, GDWGAMES@aol.com issued forth:<BR>
><BR>
>> Sensors detect a giant turtle, with four elephants on it's back . . .<BR>
><BR>
> Further scanning reveals it's turtles all the way down.<BR>
<BR>
Great A'Tuin doesn't *need* any other turtles. It swims thru space on<BR>
its own.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2000 03:44:19 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Stories in the printed copy of New Scientist which relate to Traveller<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> In a message dated 4/1/00 6:06:48 PM Central Daylight Time, <BR>
> owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com writes:<BR>
><BR>
>> Minor problem with this. If we can find them so easily with ground based<BR>
>>  TL7 sensors, the Navy won't be able to keep them a secret at TL12. <BR>
>>  <BR>
>>  Not when _hobbyist_ astronomers can put sensors in orbit that make the HST<BR>
>>  or the Keck scopes look as crude as Galileo's first model...<BR>
>>  <BR>
><BR>
> Not necessarily. I have a feeling that astronomy as a science will become a <BR>
> great deal more like archaeology in the TU, becoming more of a field science <BR>
> that currently. Why put up a million credit satellite or build a <BR>
> multi-million credit ground-based sensor when for a lot less money you can <BR>
> actually _go there_?<BR>
<BR>
Easy. Because you *can't* go to any of the really *interesting* stars.<BR>
Even with close up observation of a few thousand stars to help, there<BR>
will *still* be theories made or broken by observations of the billions<BR>
of stars we aren't going to get to anytime soon.<BR>
<BR>
> Say a Terran astronomer is interested in observing the <BR>
> Alpha Centauri system. For Cr. 10,000 he can purchase a high-passage ticket <BR>
> and actually go to the system. If he gets funding from a university or <BR>
> megacorporation, he can even hire/lease/purchase a lab ship outfitted his <BR>
> specific requirements and travel to anywhere he might be interested in. For <BR>
> this reason, most planet- or orbital-based astronomical observatories are <BR>
> probably going to be specifically designed to observe their own systems' <BR>
> star <BR>
> (for solar flares or other irregularities), if they've got any observatories <BR>
> at all.<BR>
<BR>
That's all well and good, but the data is of *very* limited use. If he<BR>
can get data on a few *thousand* stars OF THE SAME SIZE AND SPECTRAL<BR>
CLASS then he may begin to have usable data.<BR>
<BR>
> The closest thing to a traditional observatory might be one where it is <BR>
> impossible to establish one in the observed system for safety's sake, like <BR>
> trying to set up an orbital observatory around a pulsar. The radiation from <BR>
> the pulsar would most likely destroy anything within several lightyears of <BR>
> it, but an observatory set up a parsec or two away would be both perfectly <BR>
> safe and close enough that sensors dwarfing those on the Donosev series <BR>
> could  almost count the star's atoms. <BR>
<BR>
Doesn't help if I'm studying microwave emissions of giant molecular<BR>
clouds, or star formation (the nearest star forming area in something<BR>
like 1000 parsecs away).<BR>
<BR>
Just for reference, I've got the old SPI game Outreach. The map covers<BR>
about 2/3rds of the galaxy. The *entire* "known space" map won't fill<BR>
one *hex* on that map. Matter of fact, it won't even come *close* (the<BR>
hexes are about 400 parsecs across!)<BR>
<BR>
On *that* scale, we can't visit much of anything useful, even with<BR>
Traveller tech. A galaxy is a *big* place. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2000 08:07:51 -0400<BR>
From: cdriver@wvu.edu<BR>
Subject: District 268 Canon<BR>
<BR>
I'm trying to assemble a list of published adventures for CT/MT set in<BR>
District 268 -- single and double adventures, JTAS features, miscellaneous<BR>
products, etc.  I have Tarsus and Divine Intervention, and know of<BR>
Beltstrike, and Faldor from the Keith supplements.  Any other information<BR>
would be helpful.  Thanks.<BR>
<BR>
Charles Scott Driver<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2000 13:29:14 +0100<BR>
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Stories in the printed copy of New Scientist which relate toTraveller<BR>
<BR>
I'll appologise for the nature of this comment beforehand...<BR>
<BR>
Brian Quirt <baqrt@mta.ca> wrote:<BR>
<BR>
<snip><BR>
<BR>
>as even at Jump 6 it takes awhile to cover a few thousand<BR>
>lightyears (globular clusters (at least the nearest ones) are outside<BR>
>the galaxy).<BR>
<BR>
If only the nearest globular clusters are outside the galaxy, couldn't<BR>
the astronomers save a lot of money by studying the furthest ones?<BR>
<BR>
Actually, the nearest ones are inside our galaxy. What a lot of the near ones<BR>
aren't is "inside the disk".<BR>
<BR>
The point is true, however, it's easier to observe the core using longbow than<BR>
to go there and there are lots of interesting things in space which aren't<BR>
found in the first 1,000 lt yr. For example, does anyone know where the<BR>
nearest<BR>
pulsar or black hole candidate are?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Phil Kitching<BR>
- --<BR>
  http://www.btinternet.com/~salvo/<BR>
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.<BR>
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2000 08:58:02 -0400 <BR>
From: "Smith, Walter" <SmithW@hartwick.edu><BR>
Subject: Hard Times (was re: Re: Stellar Data question)<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
>Some *will* fail. Maybe even a *lot*. But between the "normal" <BR>
>occurence of accidents and stories out of the Long Night, I just don't <BR>
>see *most* planets, much less *all* of them being so stupid as to not <BR>
>take precautions. <BR>
><BR>
>And of course, "Hard Times" lasted far longer than it is "reasonable" <BR>
>to expect to be cut off. <BR>
<BR>
Even worse, the domino effect. It sucks to stretch your men to the<BR>
breaking point getting a trader repaired and launched, out to get<BR>
those desperately needed spare parts...and find that the world you<BR>
usually get them from has been blackwarred into the stone age.  <BR>
<BR>
Yeah, you kept spares on hand for two years. You've got that amount<BR>
of time to rebuild enough civilization to run those dozen different <BR>
factories you need. Blow it, and your die-off begins. And if only<BR>
enough of X survived to keep one world breathing, you may get the<BR>
extra joy of fighting against people who have nothing to lose if you<BR>
want to keep it. That'll certainly make your repair operations<BR>
interesting.<BR>
<BR>
Or the economy of your subsector collapses. You need a couple<BR>
megacredits worth of life support machinery replacement parts,<BR>
but your once-valued exports are now worth less than dirt. Now the<BR>
six factories that made the product you need go bankrupt and close<BR>
their doors, because even though you'll literally pay them your<BR>
first born virgin daughters for what you need, there's not enough<BR>
shipping to carry the goods and complete the sale.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2000 05:43:17 -0800<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Stellar Data question..<BR>
<BR>
shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) wrote<BR>
<BR>
> In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> > shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) wrote<BR>
> >>> For a world on a main in a high pop sector such a world might be only a <BR>
> >>> week from a number of sources of TL10 items.<BR>
> ><BR>
> >> Try again.<BR>
> >> Something goes wrong. *Assuming there's a ship available*, it'll take<BR>
> >> the ship a week to get to *any* other system.<BR>
> >> That's two weeks *minimum*. Any kind of problem means further delay.<BR>
<BR>
> > You seem to be assuming that parts have to be special ordered <BR>
> > which is not always the case. Let's say that our planet has <BR>
> > 500,000 people. These people live in 200,000 households. Each <BR>
> > of these households needs a TL 10 air circulation pump. The <BR>
> > pumps have a mean life span of a little less than 40 years,<BR>
> > we'll call it a 2,000 week life span. Therefore every week<BR>
> > this planet will need 100 pumps.<BR>
<BR>
> Why would the *households* need them? The setup is apt to be far closer<BR>
> to an overgrown apartment building/mall that to a bunch of indivudual<BR>
> "houses". <BR>
<BR>
Why do you assume that people would be willing to live in<BR>
high density housing when there is a whole planet out there<BR>
with only half a million people on it? If you have lots of<BR>
land per person, land is cheap, and people live farther apart.<BR>
<BR>
Remember that most planets have few people but most people<BR>
live on high population worlds. This makes it quite possible<BR>
that lower population (and therefore more likely to be<BR>
lower population density) worlds may have populations<BR>
selected for antipathy towards neighbors.<BR>
<BR>
The frontier has served as a sociological relief valve for<BR>
people who need a lot of personal space. It still does <BR>
today here in Alaska. My own brother in law is unhappy if<BR>
anyone else lives within half a mile of him, by the standards<BR>
of his area this makes him friendly. A lot of lower population<BR>
Traveller worlds are going to have significant populations<BR>
who moved there because the land is Cr 0.1 a hectare and the<BR>
planetary government, even if it has a high law level, is<BR>
to far away to bother them.<BR>
<BR>
> You don't reprocess air or water in individual dwellings, as that's<BR>
> *way* inefficient. Though households will likely have emergency air<BR>
> supplies. <BR>
<BR>
Inefficiency per unit may be preferable to high transport costs.<BR>
<BR>
> As a contemporary analog, think of you city's water and swer system.<BR>
> Unless it's *really* small, the city deals with it, not the<BR>
> home/building owners. <BR>
<BR>
Water and sewer system availability is more strongly related<BR>
to population _density_ than to population size. If households<BR>
are sufficiently far apart then the costs of running pipes <BR>
for water and sewer is not cost effective. I live in a <BR>
city of about 265,000 people at least 5 - 10% of whom have<BR>
well water and 10 - 20% have septic tanks because it is not<BR>
cost effective to put these houses on city water & sewer.<BR>
<BR>
In any model that includes non dense populations air will be <BR>
taken care of the same way. If the typical dwelling is more<BR>
than X meters from the next dwelling it is cheaper to have an<BR>
air plant in each house than to run an air pipe between them.<BR>
The value of X depends on a host of factors but I suspect<BR>
that on a lot of planets X is somewhere between 100 and<BR>
1,000 meters.<BR>
<BR>
I also note that centralized air production is more vulnerable to<BR>
control by governments and other terrorist organizations so it<BR>
is quite possible that most Traveller worlds with high or extreme<BR>
law levels have centralized air even when it is less efficient.<BR>
<BR>
> All *they* have to do is keep the plumbing in repair. <BR>
> <BR>
> > Lets say our planet has 500 people living in 200 households<BR>
> > with the same TL 10 2,000 week lifespan air pumps. One<BR>
> > pump will fail every 10 weeks. The single local store will<BR>
> > carry about two or three in stock and reorder one when the <BR>
> > first one sells.<BR>
> <BR>
> That works for *household* items. The situation is a lot different for<BR>
> municipal systems. What does your local water deptartment do if a<BR>
> holding/processing tank springs a leak? <BR>
<BR>
Another strong argument _not_ to have a local water department<BR>
or a holding/processing tank but rather to have these things <BR>
done at the household level.<BR>
<BR>
> Or if one of the pumps that<BR>
> handles a major branche line fails (there's a *reason* most water<BR>
> systems are set up to run on gravity feed whenever possible). <BR>
<BR>
> >> > Compare it to living anywhere on<BR>
> >> > Earth now. A small town in the Midwest might be TL5 as far as local<BR>
> >> > manufacture but people's homes all<BR>
> >> > have a TL7 computer, CD player or HDTV which are made somewhere <BR>
> > else and shipped into said town<BR>
<BR>
> >> But how many of those are *necessary*?<BR>
<BR>
> >> Also, consider that it's been more than 50 years since there *was*<BR>
> >> anywhere on Earth that was a two week round trip from needed supplies.<BR>
> ><BR>
> > No it has not. There are parts of the Earth (arctic) that<BR>
> > even today are out of supply range for periods of over two<BR>
> > weeks, see below.<BR>
<BR>
> The difference is that they can still *communicate*. So even if they<BR>
> can't be reached, they can get advice, and they know where things stand.<BR>
<BR>
Not always as sometimes communication depends on power<BR>
that has gone out. Alaska has lots of places phone lines<BR>
won't reach. Until a very few years ago there was _no_ cell<BR>
coverage outside of metropolitan areas. Moreover what makes<BR>
you think outside advice is of any use?<BR>
<BR>
"You say your power plant is out and the manual says you need <BR>
to replace the XJ-42-170 fuse. Well replace it. What do you<BR>
mean you don't have a spare. Do you have any similar parts?<BR>
No, well do you have any manufacturing in town? No. Well then<BR>
I guess you'd better find another source of power as I can't help<BR>
you. CLICK"<BR>
<BR>
> >> Assume you live in the Midwest. Say North Dakota. It's midwinter, the<BR>
> >> drifts are 10 feet high. And your town loses power. <BR>
> ><BR>
> > What do you need power for?<BR>
> <BR>
> I'm assuming a "typical" house/building. You need power or the damn<BR>
> *furnace* doesn't work!<BR>
<BR>
You don't need a generator to keep warm if you have fuel.<BR>
You can simply burn the heating oil directly out of the barrel<BR>
it comes in once you cut the top off. When the fuel is gone<BR>
you are SOL. No matter how self sufficient you are you need<BR>
lots of fuel to stay warm in the arctic in lower 48 style<BR>
houses.<BR>
<BR>
Moreover your "typical" house assumption is questionable, at<BR>
least in my mind.  "Typical" houses are built the way<BR>
they are because building codes require that they be<BR>
built in ways that make more money for builders. The only<BR>
reason besides building codes for not building house with an R<BR>
factor of 100+ is that if you insulate your house too well<BR>
bad air will build up inside due to poor air circulation.<BR>
Since houses on this planet have air recirculation systems capable<BR>
of dealing with the (more polluted and toxic) outside air<BR>
then they will not find interior air pollution to be much of<BR>
a problem.<BR>
<BR>
> Yeah, but *we* don't build houses that way. And worse, most modern<BR>
> building have no provision to be heated by anything *but* the furnace<BR>
> (at least not *safely*). <BR>
<BR>
A Franklin stove is about TL 4. A "modern" wood stove is<BR>
probably TL 7. Single wood stoves can easily heat 10,000<BR>
cubic foot dwellings at 40 below. Costs of said stoves is<BR>
under $1,000. If this planet has wood (and some planets won't)<BR>
then the problem is easy to solve.<BR>
<BR>
> > If you need power for an air pump then you presumably do<BR>
> > have a lower tech back up. If I had to design a low tech<BR>
> > back up for an air pump, and assuming I had no local back up<BR>
> > power source (generator, solar, geothermal, battery, whatever),<BR>
> > I would probably use a TL 4 bicycle powered generator or a<BR>
> > TL 1 treadmill.<BR>
> <BR>
> I was using the *current* situation in most of the US as an analogy. If<BR>
> *we* lose power, we lose heat, which is why many people have<BR>
> generators of fireplaces. And those with neither get shifted into<BR>
> places that *can* be kept livable until the power comes back. At least<BR>
> for the few days it usually takes.<BR>
> <BR>
> But if it took two weeks *every* time the power went out, we'd build<BR>
> differently, we'd have better backup systems, and we'd likely want at<BR>
> least *some* of the grid to be both more "localized", and repairable<BR>
> from parts on hand or with tools on hand.<BR>
<BR>
You admit that power grids would be more localized since loss<BR>
of power could be deadly but yet you think _air_ would be <BR>
centralized.<BR>
<BR>
If my houses air circulation fails in the middle of the night<BR>
on a planet with bad air I can/will be _dead_ in minutes. I<BR>
am going to have a smoke alarm type bad air detector in <BR>
every room and a filter mask or O2 tank for each person. <BR>
<BR>
> <BR>
> >> Now picture the results if it takes AT LEAST *two weeks* to get *any*<BR>
> >> outside aid. No air drops. <BR>
> ><BR>
> > Some places in Alaska are like this today.<BR>
> ><BR>
> > Harsh weather in Arctic reasons is known to stop air transport<BR>
> > to communities for well over two weeks. Almost every winter<BR>
> > I see an article in the local paper that a town in the Alaskan<BR>
> > bush (population 300 or so) has been unable to get any air<BR>
> > transport in three months and some supplies are running a<BR>
> > little low, it's a good thing they brought in all their heating <BR>
> > oil by barge during the summer.<BR>
> <BR>
> Right. They *know* that they can be cut off for that long. So they make<BR>
> provisions for it. And I bet they don't have a lot of gear that they<BR>
> both can't live without, and that can't either be fixed with tools on<BR>
> hand, or with relatively *cheap* parts on hand. <BR>
<BR>
They stock up on supplies. They have more supplies but<BR>
not necessarily better supplies.<BR>
<BR>
> >> No people on the phone or radio suggesting ways of coping <BR>
> >> (of fixing the problem) that you may not have thought of.<BR>
> ><BR>
> > Few Alaskan bush communities have this problem now but most<BR>
> > did less than 20 years ago.<BR>
> <BR>
> They had radio telephone setups in most of them quite a bit before<BR>
> that, didn't they? At least that's the impression I got back in the 60s<BR>
> (and in stuff from the 50s). After WWII surplus radios pretty much<BR>
> ensured that anyplace that wanted to be in contact could be.<BR>
<BR>
Most of the smaller communities and households had radio<BR>
receivers but few had radio transmitters.<BR>
<BR>
> >> Of yeah, no way in *hell* do you have two weeks of fuel that can be<BR>
> >> used *without* power.<BR>
<BR>
> >> Now, if you *know* this, you either *will* have supplies enough to keep<BR>
> >> going at a lower TL until help arrives, or you'll make *damn* sure that<BR>
> >> you can do a complete rebuild of the power plant with parts, tools and<BR>
> >> skills on hand.<BR>
<BR>
Of this list I think that skills are the most likely to be <BR>
lacking on low pop planets. Human civilization requires a wide <BR>
variety of skills. On a low pop planet or town you do not<BR>
have enough people to ensure that all these skills are represented.<BR>
<BR>
> > Yes that is what _I_ would do but the Hard Times supplement<BR>
> > clearly canonically establishes that this is _not_ what<BR>
> > people in the Imperium did. The doomed and failing worlds<BR>
> > were able to hold on for years but they eventually failed<BR>
> > because these settlements could not hold out without outside<BR>
> > technology.<BR>
<BR>
> Some *will* fail. Maybe even a *lot*. But between the "normal"<BR>
> occurence of accidents and stories out of the Long Night, I just don't<BR>
> see *most* planets, much less *all* of them being so stupid as to not<BR>
> take precautions. <BR>
<BR>
Hard Times and TNE canon clearly establish that this was <BR>
the case. By the TNE rules no air or bad air= no people for<BR>
locations in the wilds. The Long Night was 1,000+ years ago.<BR>
People tend not to worry much about problems that have not<BR>
occurred in that long.<BR>
<BR>
If I were to tell you that your current home town is<BR>
woefully unsafe because it does not have a wall around it<BR>
to keep out sword wielding barbarians on horseback from<BR>
robbing, raping, and killing your family (not necessarily<BR>
in that order). Or that you were woefully unprepared to defend<BR>
them because you had not been practicing with your longbow on <BR>
the village green I don't think it would concern you that<BR>
much.<BR>
<BR>
You would probably tell me that due to social and technological<BR>
changes that the scenario above was unlikely. This is _exactly_<BR>
what the average Imperial citizen circa 1116 would have told <BR>
you about the possibility of the return of the Long Night.<BR>
<BR>
> And of course, "Hard Times" lasted far longer than it is "reasonable"<BR>
> to expect to be cut off. To use your Alaskan example, They *should*<BR>
> expect to be cut off for 3 months fairly often. So they stock things<BR>
> accordingly, and probably use some gear that they wouldn't if they had<BR>
> more regular contact. Big, heavy "crude" gas, and even *steam* engines<BR>
> are found frequently in places like this. Because they are *rugged*,<BR>
> and *simple*. A *blacksmith* can repair just about any part other than<BR>
> the actual "cylinder".<BR>
<BR>
Actually the typical pattern in rural Alaska is for a town<BR>
to buy bigger more sophisticated generators with outside<BR>
money and see them fail in  less than a decade due to a lack<BR>
of qualified maintenance personnel. The conditions in most<BR>
of the smaller bush towns are such that the only thing keeping<BR>
80+% of the population from leaving, dying, or regressing<BR>
to TL 0 is outside assistance. When you include the fact that<BR>
in some of these communities the _majority_ of the adult<BR>
population have a substance abuse problem they become almost<BR>
surreal.<BR>
   <BR>
> >> Again, if the world can't re*build* it locally, they'll stick to life<BR>
> >> support tech that they can. Even two weeks would be no picnic. A month?<BR>
> >> I don't even want to *think* about it.<BR>
<BR>
> > People in extreme arctic climates make plans for this sort<BR>
> > of problem even now. I would not want to live in the bush<BR>
> > myself but I know plenty of people who do.<BR>
> <BR>
> Right. They generally stick to gear they can fix. If they *need* the<BR>
> gear, and it just plain *can't* be fixed locally if it breaks, they<BR>
> stock spare parts. And always, *lots* of batteries and fuel. <BR>
<BR>
The basic situation in the bush is that traditional native <BR>
housing has fairly tight quarters (to keep the inhabitants<BR>
warm). Earlier in this century white people _forced_ natives<BR>
to abandon their sod based, sunken entry homes in favor of<BR>
houses (poorly) designed for the lower 48. Even today if a Native <BR>
family wanted to live in a traditional style house they would <BR>
risk having their children taken away from them.<BR>
<BR>
A white social worker would hear that this family was had<BR>
for people living in a 400 square foot dwelling, would<BR>
investigate, and would recommend that the children be<BR>
removed from the home on the grounds that the parents were<BR>
not providing adequate housing for their children.<BR>
<BR>
> There's a *reason* dog sleds, snow shoes, and cross-country skis are<BR>
> still around in spite of the sno-cat and snowmobile.<BR>
<BR>
In the Alaskan bush dog sleds are completely gone as a form of<BR>
transport, skis were rarely/never used, and snow shoes while present <BR>
are not commonly used. The inhabitants do not find them as<BR>
cost effective as snow mobiles, 4 wheelers, and bush planes.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2000 13:14:21 +0100<BR>
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com><BR>
Subject: Re: TL/Pixie<BR>
<BR>
Hans Rancke-Madsen wrote:<BR>
>Peter Trevorwrites:<BR>
<BR>
>>However, Pixie is also the location of a major shipbuilding facility<BR>
>>producing L-Hyd drop tanks. The factory workers were contractors<BR>
>>or on 6 month rotation (etc) and thus classified as transient ...<BR>
>>and thus not counted in Pixie's UPP.<BR>
<BR>
...<BR>
<BR>
>>Although technically a class A starport, only very small starships can be<BR>
>>manufactured <BR>
><BR>
>Up to 600 T ships IIRC. Which according to the rules in TCS requires a<BR>
>population of 600,000. Now, I could see a 'one-crop' world that earned<BR>
>it's living by building starships making do with maybe one tenth of<BR>
>that. And I could see a dedicated shipyard that was subsidized from<BR>
>outside, ferrying in sub-components and assembling them get by with<BR>
>maybe a tenth of that[*]. But 90 people? I don't believe it. <BR>
><BR>
>[*] I just don't see why anyone would set one up on Pixie.<BR>
<BR>
Perhaps Pixie is a new facility, built there to avoid people snooping<BR>
on the drop tank production facilities.<BR>
<BR>
Perhaps all they currently make is the high tech jump drive bits that<BR>
are then shipped to other (low tech) class A stations in the Marches<BR>
(eg Regina).<BR>
<BR>
Perhaps the yard is actually TL15/16 but only for jump drive capacitors.<BR>
<BR>
Perhaps, if the drop tank thing takes off in the Marches, they'll recruit<BR>
lots of workers and significantly alter the population, gov and law codes<BR>
in the next survey (around 1200?). If the yard isn't in the belt, but is<BR>
in orbit around a small planet, the entire UWP could change.<BR>
<BR>
Allowing for the owners being General Shipyards, perhaps the TL will drop<BR>
back to the TL 11/12 of the Belter's Type Js and the ruins will one day<BR>
be converted into an industrial archeology site - a tourist attraction.<BR>
<BR>
"There are always possibilities" (attributed to Mr Spock)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Phil Kitching<BR>
- --<BR>
  http://www.btinternet.com/~salvo/<BR>
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.<BR>
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2000 09:09:14 -0500<BR>
From: ehenry@newberlin.org (Eric Henry)<BR>
Subject: Re: GDW boardgames<BR>
<BR>
Have any _Dark Nebula_ still in shrink-wrap?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com <GDWGAMES@aol.com><BR>
Subject: Re: GDW boardgames<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>In a message dated 00-03-31 06:10:18 EST, you write:<BR>
><BR>
><< >At Titan Games, Imperium is currently available new for $15.  Although<BR>
> >the Web site doesn't say, I suspect that the copy or copies they have<BR>
> >are the second GDW edition (4-piece hardback game board, slightly<BR>
> >smaller than the folded-paper 1st edition map). >><BR>
><BR>
>If those are the ones I sold him, they are indeed the hard board versions.<BR>
I<BR>
>still have a couple in factory shrinkwrap if anyone wants to talk $.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2000 07:06:32 -0700<BR>
From: Jesse DeGraff <jdegraff@pacbell.net><BR>
Subject: RE: Dave Hyphen is channelling me<BR>
<BR>
> <Michael throws his head back then speaks in a dull monotone><BR>
><BR>
> Dear Folks -<BR>
><BR>
> I have published the following updates to Beowulf Down:<BR>
>      - added The Spinward Marches Campaign historical maps<BR>
>        (pp 14-15 of the SMC) to the Tavonni Repair Bays;<BR>
>      - added an animated GIF of the 8 SMC historical maps (crude but<BR>
>        effective) to the same place;<BR>
>      - added Menelvagor (including a logo!) to the Tavonni Specialties;<BR>
>      - added various "Imported Goods" (in the old DGP equipment format)<BR>
>        under Menelvagor, such as:<BR>
>           - FOUR different types of battledress (for MT);<BR>
>           - an automated medikit (for MT).<BR>
><BR>
> The maps should be of interest to the TML Land-Grab participants. Colin,<BR>
> feel<BR>
> free to add a link from your page to my site (er, if you want to,<BR>
> that is).<BR>
><BR>
> The equipment sheets are zipped Word97 documents. I'm going to add a blank<BR>
> template as well, when I get a round tuit. I hope you like them!<BR>
><BR>
> Personally, I'm still waiting for Jesse to build his vacc-formed<BR>
> battledress...<BR>
> ;-)<BR>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
> David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)<BR>
> http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au<BR>
> "I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"<BR>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
> REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those<BR>
> of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the<BR>
> position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.<BR>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Well, either I work on the SJG stuff like AR3, Rim, & the Cutter Sourcebook<BR>
(for the close future), or I drop all of it and work on the props :)<BR>
<BR>
In all honesty, I REALLY wanted to get at least one suit of combat armor<BR>
done for this years BayCon, with Doug's Jubilee Party, but I don't think<BR>
it's gonna' happen.  More's the pity :(<BR>
<BR>
Oh well,<BR>
Jesse<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2000 16:22:20 +0200<BR>
From: Jens Rydholm <jenry023@student.liu.se><BR>
Subject: Re: Association of Several Steves<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
> I had a *real* problem with mail when I moved into this apartment.<BR>
> You see, the former occupant had the *same* last name as I do. And<BR>
> since the Post Awful files address changes by a code based on last<BR>
> name and adress, it is *impossible* to get reliable handling in such<BR>
> a situation.<BR>
> <BR>
> The first time I tried a "not at this address" with regard to Ms.<BR>
> Gwen Erickson's mail, I stopped getting *my* mail. I *still* get the<BR>
> occasional item for her.<BR>
> <BR>
> Just picture the fun if this happens to one of the PCs.<BR>
<BR>
"Who is this Strephon person anyway?"<BR>
<BR>
/Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2240<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2241</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
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Traveller-digest       Monday, April 3 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2241<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Distribution of stars in Solomani Rim<BR>
Re: Dolphins<BR>
RE: Notes on building Heya<BR>
Re: Dave Hyphen is channelling me<BR>
Re: Notes on building Heya<BR>
TNS Instantaneous Communication<BR>
Re: Notes on building Heya<BR>
RE: TL/Pixie<BR>
Re: Dave Hyphen is channelling me<BR>
RE: RS etc, etc.<BR>
Re: Lord Ship and Dr Strauss<BR>
Re: Distribution of stars in Solomani Rim<BR>
Re: New Madrid Fault<BR>
_Scandalous_ class Modified Type S (FF&S2) [Long]<BR>
CLT- Picture<BR>
RE: TL/Pixie<BR>
Jonkereen (was Re: TML Landgrab) <BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2000 09:25:29 -0600 (CST)<BR>
From: "Jason Kemp" <Jason.Kemp@tdh.state.tx.us><BR>
Subject: Re: Distribution of stars in Solomani Rim<BR>
<BR>
Ingo,<BR>
<BR>
An excellent resource that does attempt to correlate real-world stars <BR>
with those in the Solomani Rim can be found in a document created by <BR>
Harold Hale. The URL is:<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Corridor/4224/library/solomanistars.ht<BR>
ml<BR>
<BR>
As for how the star names were assigned on the Solomani Rim map, I <BR>
have no clue, personally.<BR>
<BR>
Enjoy,<BR>
Jason<BR>
<BR>
From: Ingo Heinscher <Hiroshi.Estigarribia@gmx.de><BR>
<BR>
> Hi!<BR>
> <BR>
> I found an old map (in some German CT stuff) of Solomani Rim. What puzzles<BR>
> me is that the authors obviously used several real star names in the<BR>
> sector: Such as Arcturus, Fomalhaut, Altair, Vega etc. Some other real<BR>
> stars can be identified by means of astrography (yes, I know,it is 2D and<BR>
> all, but some things can be conluded anyway). Namely Ilike, and Shumilik,<BR>
> who can easily be identified als Tau Ceti and Epsilon Eridani due to their<BR>
> proximity to Sirius, and same is true for Procyon (Fenris).(Though another<BR>
> source for these conclusions is Imperium, the boardgame).<BR>
> <BR>
> What I ask myself now is: How was this map done? Did they use a "real" star<BR>
> map that they converted in some way to 2D? Was it just randomly assigning<BR>
> names from real astronomy to stars on the random map?<BR>
=============================<BR>
Jason Kemp, ADS Programmer IV<BR>
(512)458-7111 ext. 1+3375<BR>
Internet Address:  jason.kemp@tdh.state.tx.us<BR>
<BR>
Most computer virus and email alerts are hoaxes.  For more info, check out:<BR>
http://urbanlegends.miningco.com/culture/beliefs/urbanlegends/library/blhoax.htm<BR>
==============================<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2000 09:28:19 -0600 (CST)<BR>
From: "Jason Kemp" <Jason.Kemp@tdh.state.tx.us><BR>
Subject: Re: Dolphins<BR>
<BR>
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net><BR>
<BR>
> >    I've been trying to locate any canon Traveller books that deal with =<BR>
> >'uplifted' dolphins. I think I've got the JTAS angle covered, but I =<BR>
> >don't have much in the way of MT or TNE material, so I don't know what's =<BR>
> >out there. Does anyone happen to know if there were any major =<BR>
> >supplements published that talk about them, or at least any supplements =<BR>
> >that mention them at all? Any help is appreciated, thanks.<BR>
<BR>
Uplifted Dolphins are detailed in the Best of JTAS Vol 2, covering <BR>
issues 5-8.<BR>
<BR>
They are then revisited and expanded for MT in TD13.<BR>
<BR>
I have yet to see their stats in TNE, T4, T5, or GT, although with <BR>
the upcoming Solomani Rim sourcebook from GT, they may make an <BR>
appearance. Not sure, though.<BR>
<BR>
Hope this helps,<BR>
Jason<BR>
<BR>
=============================<BR>
Jason Kemp, ADS Programmer IV<BR>
(512)458-7111 ext. 1+3375<BR>
Internet Address:  jason.kemp@tdh.state.tx.us<BR>
<BR>
Most computer virus and email alerts are hoaxes.  For more info, check out:<BR>
http://urbanlegends.miningco.com/culture/beliefs/urbanlegends/library/blhoax.htm<BR>
==============================<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2000 10:37:02 -0400<BR>
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net><BR>
Subject: RE: Notes on building Heya<BR>
<BR>
Hans Rancke-Madsen writes:<BR>
<BR>
>>My mileage certainly does vary. In the U.S., an astonishingly small amount<BR>
>>of people make enough food for the whole country, not to mention a healthy<BR>
>>export business to other countries. If I remember correctly, under 5% of<BR>
>>Americans are involved in farming.<BR>
><BR>
> That is a factor 1:20 at TL 7. I'm perfectly ready to accept that one<BR>
farmer<BR>
> can produce enough food to feed 20 people at TL 7 even though the only<BR>
rules<BR>
> I know of puts it somewhat lower (According to _World Tamer's Handbook_ 4<BR>
> farmers (actually, 1 farmers and 3 dependents) can produce enough food to<BR>
> feed 25 people at TL 7). The figures above works out at 1:6,000 at TL 5.<BR>
> That I'm not prepared to believe.<BR>
<BR>
I checked. In the U.S., roughly 2-3 percent of the population of the United<BR>
States are employed in agriculture and fisheries. However, that doesn't work<BR>
out to 1:50, or 1:33 because the US exports vast quantities of food to the<BR>
rest of the world. I haven't found any reliable figures on approximately how<BR>
much. While 1:6,000 is beyond what I personally find reasonable, but I feel<BR>
that 1:1,000 or so is within reason, which would still reap massive profits<BR>
for Heya. This assumes good growing seasons and access to advanced seeds, as<BR>
well as access to relatively high-tech farm machinery.<BR>
<BR>
>In medieval setups (TTL 1) at least 80% of the population is rural. Of<BR>
course,<BR>
>'rural' includes the village blacksmith and the parish priest.<BR>
<BR>
I'm talking about those people who directly work the land. It seems to be<BR>
between roughly 50% and 80% or so.<BR>
<BR>
>>I'm not sure what Traveller TL this would happen at, exactly, because the<BR>
>>decrease has been gradual over a number of years.<BR>
><BR>
> TL 5 corresponds to pre-WWII IIRC.<BR>
<BR>
In that case, this decrease has happened between TL5 - TL7.<BR>
<BR>
>>Should your argument be applied to other areas? Should industrial planets<BR>
>>have their capabilities "cut" because they'd make too much money?<BR>
><BR>
>Only if you suggest that Industrial planets produce an unrealistically<BR>
large<BR>
>number of industrial goods.<BR>
<BR>
Fair enough. However, is 1:100, or 1:1000 unrealistic, given that we've gone<BR>
from about 1:2 to 1:50+ in about 40 years, or between 2 TLs?<BR>
<BR>
>>It wouldn't take an unusually useful local plant, just a lot of space and<BR>
>>decent growing conditions. Whether or not the plant can be transplanted to<BR>
>>other worlds is irrelevant.<BR>
><BR>
>For the purpose of this discussion, yes. But it would be such a useful<BR>
plant<BR>
>that if it could be transplanted, it would supplant most other crops unless<BR>
>there were other problems with it.<BR>
<BR>
The plant doesn't have to be useful. The arable land and the distribution<BR>
network would be what's useful. If you have a planet with a relatively low<BR>
population density and lots of arable land, whatever plants you can grow<BR>
immediately become useful.<BR>
<BR>
>>Not really. There are a number of low-tech societies in the real world<BR>
that<BR>
>>seem to manage just fine by importing high-tech farming equipment and<BR>
>>supplies. If there is as much money involved as you seem to think, then<BR>
>>surely Heya would be able to import the best equipment and personnel to<BR>
>>train them in the use of that equipment, to repair it, and so on.<BR>
><BR>
>In which case Heya would be a higher TL. Even though this isn't stated<BR>
>explicitly anywhere, it is implicit in quite a lot of rules. For instance,<BR>
>economic output is always based on the given TL of the planet. If Heya's<BR>
>TL was effectively higher, its economic output would be based on that<BR>
>higher TL, regadless of whether or not it could be maintained locally.<BR>
<BR>
There are several different systems for economic output floating around out<BR>
there. Without picking any *one*, we have moved into a discussion that is on<BR>
a different level than the rules. In real life there are societies that are<BR>
TL1 or so, but have access to high-tech chemical fertilizers, excellent<BR>
seeds and, in many cases, state of the art farm machinery. Still, they are<BR>
for all intents and purposes TL1 or so. There are societies like this that<BR>
would currently be considered TL5.<BR>
<BR>
If the TL system is to be considered as strict as you seem to imply, then it<BR>
ceases to be useful, not to mention the fact that it starts to feel<BR>
extremely unrealistic.<BR>
<BR>
It ceases to be useful simply because it is no longer considered to be the<BR>
arbitrary abstraction that it actually is. It's foolish to believe that tech<BR>
level tells you anything more than the sorts of things which may typically<BR>
be found on the world. It starts to feel unrealistic because it specifically<BR>
disallows the selling of manufactured materials from high-tech worlds to<BR>
low-tech worlds. The major flaws in this logic are apparent when you realize<BR>
that this means that industrialized worlds will have no exports, and hence<BR>
can make no money in a system that is based on the trading of such<BR>
materials.<BR>
<BR>
>In any case, that still doesn't account for all the tertiary occupations.<BR>
<BR>
It depends on the amount of people who would be involved in these tertiary<BR>
occupations.<BR>
<BR>
>>This wouldn't necessarily go hand in hand with an increase in the tech<BR>
level<BR>
>>of the planet, for the obvious reason that this rating is somewhat<BR>
abstract.<BR>
><BR>
>I disagree.<BR>
<BR>
What is it that you disagree with? Do you disagree that such a scenario<BR>
wouldn't necessarily go hand in hand with an increse in TL; that the rating<BR>
is abstract; or both?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2000 10:10:27 -0500<BR>
From: Steven Bonneville <bonnevil@ima.umn.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Dave Hyphen is channelling me<BR>
<BR>
The medium channeling David Hyphen moaned:<BR>
<BR>
> I have published the following updates to Beowulf Down:<BR>
>      - added The Spinward Marches Campaign historical maps<BR>
>        (pp 14-15 of the SMC) to the Tavonni Repair Bays;<BR>
>      - added an animated GIF of the 8 SMC historical maps (crude but<BR>
>        effective) to the same place;<BR>
<BR>
The Traveller Adventure has "the other half" of these maps, covering the<BR>
early colonization of the Marches (ca. 100-600).<BR>
<BR>
  -- Steve Bonneville<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2000 11:23:37 -0400<BR>
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca><BR>
Subject: Re: Notes on building Heya<BR>
<BR>
Hans Rancke-Madsen writes:<BR>
>>Each farmer would be making no more than he/she would if the food was being<BR>
>>sold locally (assuming a similar demand), so I still don't follow the logic.<BR>
>If 60 million people were growing enough food to feed 36 bilion people and<BR>
>selling it at a tiny markup, they would all be millionaires. The reason why<BR>
>this does not happen is, IMO, that 60 million people cannon grow enough<BR>
>food to feed 36 billion people. YMMV.<BR>
<BR>
	This is true.  I was approaching it the other way: if a TL 5 farmer<BR>
	sells all the food that he/she produces, it doesn't matter where it<BR>
	goes (they still make the usual TL 5 farmer's living).  The real<BR>
	question is then "How much food can a TL 5 world with 70 million<BR>
	people produce?"<BR>
<BR>
>>Would it be reasonable to allow 100 people to be fed from each TL 5 farmer<BR>
>>under these conditions?<BR>
>It would take an unusually useful local plant, but why not? One, hopefully,<BR>
>that can't be transplanted to other worlds.<BR>
<BR>
	Much of the high productivity may be attributed to the Heyan ecosystem.<BR>
	Transplanting the food plants would not bring this level of production<BR>
	to other worlds.<BR>
<BR>
>>This would require 360 million farmers (what is the population of Heya?)<BR>
>70 million.<BR>
>>if they were the sole source of food.  Given the huge (and stable) demand<BR>
>>for food, it would not be a stretch to assume that a large portion of Heyans<BR>
>>are farmers,<BR>
>TL 5 is industrial technology. You need more than farmers to grow food. You<BR>
>need the whole underpinning of their society. Industrial workers, educators,<BR>
>administrators, entertainers... <BR>
<BR>
	On the other hand, Heya is not an Industrial world.  There will be<BR>
	some local industry, but a lot of stuff is imported (from those<BR>
	hungry worlds nearby?).  Given that farms are very productive on Heya,<BR>
	and there is a huge and stable market for food, farming may be very<BR>
	popular indeed.  Can there be 36 million farmers out of 70 million<BR>
	citizens, producing food for 100 sophonts each?  How about 18 million<BR>
	farmers producing for 200 each?  Either option would feed 10% of the<BR>
	nearby high-pop worlds.  That would be enough to make these worlds<BR>
	dependant on Heya, even if the local life-support systems did not<BR>
	rely on the imported materials.<BR>
<BR>
Peez<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2000 10:33:07 -0500<BR>
From: Steven Bonneville <bonnevil@ima.umn.edu><BR>
Subject: TNS Instantaneous Communication<BR>
<BR>
The latest TNS report is glitched.<BR>
<BR>
The previous report was datelined "Sebasta/Solomani Rim", 119-1117, though<BR>
the report is "received 120-1117"; it involved the secession of Kukulcan <BR>
from the Solomani Confederation.<BR>
<BR>
The current report is datelined "Capital/Core", 120-1117, and reacts to <BR>
the news of the secession of Kukulcan -- recieved "yesterday"!  <BR>
<BR>
Unless the Imperium has instant communication now, this is an Oops.  :)<BR>
Dateline should probably read Sebasta again.<BR>
<BR>
  -- Steve Bonneville<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2000 11:38:17 -0400<BR>
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca><BR>
Subject: Re: Notes on building Heya<BR>
<BR>
Hans Rancke-Madsen writes:<BR>
<snipped><BR>
>>>>Would it be reasonable to allow 100 people to be fed from each TL 5<BR>
>>>>farmer under these conditions?<BR>
>>>It would take an unusually useful local plant, but why not? One, hopefully,<BR>
>>>that can't be transplanted to other worlds.<BR>
>>It wouldn't take an unusually useful local plant, just a lot of space and<BR>
>>decent growing conditions. Whether or not the plant can be transplanted to<BR>
>>other worlds is irrelevant.<BR>
>For the purpose of this discussion, yes. But it would be such a useful plant<BR>
>that if it could be transplanted, it would supplant most other crops unless<BR>
>there were other problems with it.<BR>
<BR>
	This assumes that it is the plant itself that confers the advantage.<BR>
	If the Heyans use plants similar to those on other agricultural worlds<BR>
	(but adapted to Heya's environment), they might still have much higher<BR>
	yields because of the very favourable conditions on Heya.  One can<BR>
	suppose high solar radiation in usable wavelengths, stable warm<BR>
	temperatures year-around, high nutrient levels and deep topsoil, low<BR>
	levels of pests, regular rainfall/benign floods, and a very aggie-<BR>
	friendly society.<BR>
<BR>
>>>TL 5 is industrial technology. You need more than farmers to grow food. You<BR>
>>>need the whole underpinning of their society. Industrial workers,<BR>
>>>educators, administrators, entertainers...<BR>
>>Not really. There are a number of low-tech societies in the real world that<BR>
>>seem to manage just fine by importing high-tech farming equipment and<BR>
>>supplies. If there is as much money involved as you seem to think, then<BR>
>>surely Heya would be able to import the best equipment and personnel to<BR>
>>train them in the use of that equipment, to repair it, and so on. <BR>
>In which case Heya would be a higher TL. Even though this isn't stated<BR>
>explicitly anywhere, it is implicit in quite a lot of rules. For instance,<BR>
>economic output is always based on the given TL of the planet. If Heya's<BR>
>TL was effectively higher, its economic output would be based on that<BR>
>higher TL, regadless of whether or not it could be maintained locally.<BR>
<BR>
	I agree, but that does not mean that industrial goods are never<BR>
	imported.  I could imagine limited local industry augmented by<BR>
	TL 5 imports from higher-TL worlds.  Only limited amounts of<BR>
	higher-TL stuff should be on Heya.<BR>
<BR>
>In any case, that still doesn't account for all the tertiary occupations.<BR>
<snipped><BR>
<BR>
	Can anyone suggest an upper limit to the number of farmers to be<BR>
	found on a TL 5 world supported by importing as much as possible<BR>
	from offworld?<BR>
<BR>
Peez<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2000 12:12:33 -0400<BR>
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca><BR>
Subject: RE: TL/Pixie<BR>
<BR>
Hans Rancke-Madsen writes:<BR>
<snipped><BR>
>Ian Ferguson writes:<BR>
>>Pixie is one of those worlds that gets Traveller GMs thinking up stories.<BR>
>Which is a good thing if you can come up with something that works. I just<BR>
>don't think that all random UWPs can be explained away.<BR>
<BR>
	It's all relative  ;)<BR>
<BR>
	If you cannot find an explanation for Pixie (or any other world)<BR>
	that you can live with, just change the world, drop it, or use<BR>
	another TU.  Pixie doesn't cross the line for me, but it's just<BR>
	a question of personal taste.<BR>
<BR>
>>IIRC it is TL 13 in 1105, with a Pop 0 (up to 90), Starport A, and an<BR>
>>Imperial Naval Base (is there an IWS there as well?). I put about 90% of<BR>
>>the residents at the starport, with a lot of robotic assistants.<BR>
>But if this is an economically sound setup, most starports would be run by<BR>
>a few people with lots of robotic assistants. Do you think this is the<BR>
>case? If not, why not? What makes Pixie worth the added expense of a lot<BR>
>of robotic assistants? An explanation that begs the question is no good<BR>
>at all, IMO.<BR>
<BR>
	From my perusal of the robot rules in the Reprints, robots probably<BR>
	should supplant sophonts in most jobs on hi-tech worlds.  I don't<BR>
	want that to happen, so I tweek those rules to make robots less<BR>
	economical.  That being said, IMTU robots are still widely used in<BR>
	most starports on worlds of average+ TL in the Imperium.<BR>
<BR>
	Now, I agree that I need a logical explanation for Pixie having <BR>
	more than a typical proportion of jobs being done by robots.  My<BR>
	thinking has been that the Imperial Navy set up their base there,<BR>
	and a few of the local miners set up a bar next door.  Commercial<BR>
	traffic through the system increased, and the civilian facilities<BR>
	expanded slightly, but the local mining petered out.  The starport<BR>
	would never have been upgraded to A, but the navy invested heavily<BR>
	in the base there.  The population is growing, but in the mean time<BR>
	robots have been imported to deal with the increasing traffic.<BR>
<BR>
>>Although technically a class A starport, only very small starships can be<BR>
>>manufactured <BR>
>Up to 600 T ships IIRC. Which according to the rules in TCS requires a<BR>
>population of 600,000. Now, I could see a 'one-crop' world that earned<BR>
>it's living by building starships making do with maybe one tenth of<BR>
>that. And I could see a dedicated shipyard that was subsidized from<BR>
>outside, ferrying in sub-components and assembling them get by with<BR>
>maybe a tenth of that[*]. But 90 people? I don't believe it.<BR>
<BR>
	I don't use the 600,000-person requirement, but I expect that it<BR>
	refers to having enough people to support such construction.  How<BR>
	many people have to work on a 600-ton ship at one time?  10?  20?<BR>
	40?  Import the parts, hire a few contractors from off-planet,<BR>
	rent some stuff from the naval base, transfer some personel from<BR>
	other jobs, and take longer to built the ship than standard times.<BR>
	Pixie technically has a class A starport, but hardly ever is<BR>
	anything constructed there.<BR>
<BR>
>[*] I just don't see why anyone would set one up on Pixie.<BR>
<BR>
	Initially, mostly just to cater to the naval base, now more<BR>
	commercial traffic is encouraging expansion.<BR>
<BR>
Peez<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2000 08:48:54<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Dave Hyphen is channelling me<BR>
<BR>
At 05:55 AM 4/4/2000 +1000, you wrote:<BR>
><Michael throws his head back then speaks in a dull monotone><BR>
<BR>
Ennie-meenie chili-beanie, the spirits are about to speak!<BR>
<BR>
>Personally, I'm still waiting for Jesse to build his vacc-formed<BR>
>battledress...<BR>
<BR>
Wait until you see the Imperial Army uniform I'm going to have at BayCon.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2000 08:57:53<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: RE: RS etc, etc.<BR>
<BR>
At 03:37 PM 4/2/2000 -0400, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Didn't Loren say a few months back that they lost interest quite some time<BR>
>before TNE?<BR>
<BR>
My understanding was that they had offered to buy the "classic Traveller"<BR>
concept, and keep it alive.  When it became clear that GDW was set on TNE,<BR>
they decided to make a clean break.<BR>
<BR>
The exact timing of this I'm not clear on.  Obviously, there would have<BR>
been a lead time of several months for the producers.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2000 10:09:45 -0700<BR>
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Lord Ship and Dr Strauss<BR>
<BR>
Lewis Roberts wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> COALINFONET, CLASS: NEWSREPORT, DISTRIBUTION: UNLTD, AUTHORITY CIN/LUHTALAN<BR>
> ENFORCER COMMAND/LUCIFER (ORIFLAMME/0932, D474784-8), 9/VI/1202 KEYWORDS: SPACE<BR>
> WITCH, AMEILA BENSON, THE SHACKLETON SLASHER<BR>
<BR>
Excellent write-up Lewis!!<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Bruce Johnson<BR>
University of Arizona<BR>
College of Pharmacy<BR>
Information Technology Group<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2000 19:10:03 +0200<BR>
From: Ingo Heinscher <Hiroshi.Estigarribia@gmx.de><BR>
Subject: Re: Distribution of stars in Solomani Rim<BR>
<BR>
At 09:25 03.04.00 -0600, Jason Kemp wrote:<BR>
>Ingo,<BR>
><BR>
>An excellent resource that does attempt to correlate real-world stars <BR>
>with those in the Solomani Rim can be found in a document created by <BR>
>Harold Hale. The URL is:<BR>
><BR>
>http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Corridor/4224/library/solomanistars.html<BR>
<BR>
Thanks! That might be useful for my purpose...<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
"This was not meant to be an aggresssion against the Siru Zirka. But we had<BR>
to organize our affairs a bit more efficiently. To be honest, we have had<BR>
to do this for almost 300 years by now."<BR>
unknown Terran politician, -2398 Imp<BR>
;-) ingo heinscher <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2000 10:19:29 -0700<BR>
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: New Madrid Fault<BR>
<BR>
My understanding is that New Madrid is a failed rift zone.  Unlike<BR>
strike slip faults, earth quakes aren't as predictable.  It<BR>
could have another one tomorrow, or it could never have another<BR>
one.<BR>
<BR>
Also, the rock in the east transmit shock waves more efficiently,<BR>
that means that damage due to an earthquake is more widespread.<BR>
(I had heard the the last on had rung church bells in Boston,<BR>
not Pitt.,  but I don't remember my source and it could<BR>
have been inaccurate).<BR>
______________________________<BR>
summers@alum.mit.edu<BR>
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2000 11:24:59 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: AuricTech Shipyards <aurictech@esweeet.com><BR>
Subject: _Scandalous_ class Modified Type S (FF&S2) [Long]<BR>
<BR>
When someone mentioned that you can buy about 100 scout/couriers for the price of one real warship, I decided that I just _had_ to post this:<BR>
<BR>
**begin transmission**<BR>
<BR>
From the Spinward Defence Journal, dated 125-1117:<BR>
<BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Unveils New Scout/Courier<BR>
<BR>
On 123-1117, this reporter traveled to the AuricTech Shipyards facility at Trin Downport Prime to see the latest AuricTech project, a heavily modified Type S 100 dton scout/courier.  Upon my arrival at the AuricTech facility, I met with AuricTech's Chief Executive Officer, Dame Jenifer Rearden-Taggart.  Dame Rearden-Taggart provided me with a set of technical specification documents concerning their new ship, then led me into Production Bay 23.<BR>
<BR>
My first impression was someone had taken a wax model of a regular Type S and left it in the heat for a while.  While it retained the classic wedge configuration of the standard Type S, it seemed rounded.  Dame Rearden-Taggart pointed out that, as was mentioned on the spec sheet, this ship was heavily stealthed.  The ultra-black configurable finish had two sections that were set to display the ship's name: _Scandalous_.  When I commented on the odd name, Dame Rearden-Taggart smiled and told me that the name was computer-generated, from a list of adjectives beginning with the letter "S."  She added that the lack of improvements in the basic Type S in over 1100 years was itself a scandal, in her opinion. <BR>
<BR>
Once inside the ship, the differences became even more obvious.  This ship mounted a truly dizzying array of facilities, especially when compared to the Type S that the IISS issued me when I retired.  Scandalous carries everything from a laboratory to a sick bay, along with an incredible sensor suite.  The AEMS has a range nearly 27 times greater than that on the typical Type S, while the PEMS has a range increase of over 50,000 percent.  A 10,000 AU directional radio receiver and targeting LIDAR round out the sensors.  To complement the stealth features of the hull, _Scandalous_ sports a modest ECM suite, as well as IR and neutrino masking.  Data processing, maintenance, and ship control are supported by three fiber-optic computers, backed up by three flight computers.<BR>
<BR>
Dame Rearden-Taggart then showed me some of the crew amenities.  _Scandalous_ is equipped with one small and four large staterooms, along with a four-sophont emergency low berth.  To help maintain crew morale and fitness during extended deployments, _Scandalous_ has a crew gym.  The small galley has enough storage capacity to support a crew of five for up to 26 weeks, with ample fresh and frozen provisions.  These rations were supplemented by another 13 weeks worth of standard Imperial emergency rations.<BR>
<BR>
We then toured the engineering spaces of _Scandalous_.  The ship draws power from a 77.7 MW Wilcox and Babcock standard fusion power plant, with sufficient fuel for one standard year.  Admiral Electric thrust plates drive Scandalous at 2-Gs acceleration under full load.  The MultiFlow Corporation life support system is geared to providing extended life support, without the odor problems often encountered on standard Type S ships.  The Hieronymous fuel system can refine a full load of fuel in less than 9 standard hours.  Naturally, a scoutship without adequate communications is of little use.  For this reason, _Scandalous_ mounts a 1,000 AU range radio transceiver, along with two 1,000 AU range laser communicators.  Two additional 1,000 AU laser comm systems and a 50,000 km range radio transceivers provide backup, in the event of equipment damage.<BR>
<BR>
Other important features of Scandalous include a 61 MJ laser with master fire control and point defense capability, a sandcaster, and an arms locker.  _Scandalous_ is also equipped with provisions to carry the 2 dton VA-1 utility landing vehicle in a docking ring.  The 5 dton cargo hold is equipped with a small cargo handler, able to move loads of up to four metric tons.<BR>
<BR>
Overall, I found AuricTech's new scout/courier to be a technological tour de force, far more capable than the standard Type S.  Unfortunately, all of these capabilities come at a steep price: over MCr 627 per ship.  This is just too much ship, for too much money, for too small a mission.<BR>
<BR>
AuricTech Shipyards _Scandalous_ Modified Type S Scout/Courier<BR>
<BR>
Tons: 100 std (AF Wedge Hypersonic) <BR>
Dimensions: 35 m x 24 m x 10 m<BR>
Volume: 1400 m3<BR>
Cargo: 5 std (1 hatches, Hdl: 1 x 4 t) <BR>
Mass (L/C): 986 t / 896 t <BR>
Maintenance Points: 31<BR>
Passengers High/Med: None <BR>
Crew: 2 / 4 <BR>
Frozen Watch: 0<BR>
Cost: 627.955 MCr   (Cost Multiplier 1)<BR>
Tech Level: 15<BR>
Size: 8 <BR>
<BR>
Electronics<BR>
Controls: Holographic, Standard automation. 3 x FltComp (CM: .3 CP: 3.33). 3 x FibComp (CM: .3 CP: 3.33). Terrain-following sensors (TF: 570, NOE: 190). No bridge.<BR>
Communications: 1 x Directional radio receiver (10,000 AU, 0.02 MW). 1 x Radio transceiver (1,000 AU, 0.2 MW). 2 x Laser (1,000 AU, 0 MW).<BR>
Sensors: 1 x PEMS (14 [50 mkm], 0.05 MW). 1 x AEMS (12 [1.6 mkm] LP, .5 MW). 1 x LIDAR (14.5 [500 kkm], 0.5 MW).<BR>
Survey/Science: None<BR>
ECM: 1 x Radio Jammer (500,000 km, 0.33 MW). 1 x Deceptive Jammer (11, 0.2 MW). 1 x Passive Jammer (14, 0.1 MW).  Extreme IR Masking.  Neutrino Masking.  Stealth-3.  Ultra-black coating.<BR>
Signatures: Vis: -1.5, IR: -2 (-2 at 60 MW, -2.5 at 8 MW), Act: -1, Neu: -2, Grav: 0<BR>
<BR>
Performance <BR>
2 Jump (10 std/pc fuel) <BR>
2 / 2.2 Maneuver (Thruster: 48 MW)<BR>
No Contra-grav<BR>
2236 kph/2444 kph Atmosphere Maximum <BR>
1677 kph/1833 kph Atmosphere Cruise <BR>
2 Power (Fusion: 77.7 MW,1yr) <BR>
0 Battery<BR>
20.6 Fuel (Scoop:2 / Purif: 9, 1 MW) <BR>
1/4/0/1 Accommodations (SmStRoom/LargeStRoom/Low Berth/Emgy Low Berth) <BR>
130 Life Sup. (Type:Extended, Good Food/Storage) <BR>
2 G-Comp <BR>
1 x Sandcaster (AV: 79, 31 cans)<BR>
10 [29] Armor, 10 Structure <BR>
<BR>
Weapons:  1 x 61 MJ Laser Turret (+6) 1 /2-2-2-2 [1,100/20-20-20-20] (LR) RoF: 100.  PD RoF: 800.<BR>
<BR>
Features:<BR>
1 x Airlock <BR>
1 x Laboratory (8 std)<BR>
1 x Sickbay (8 std)<BR>
1 x Gym (2.5 std)<BR>
1 x Armory (.14 std, Cap: 5)<BR>
1 x Ship's locker (.05 std ea.) <BR>
1 x Ordinary Galley (Cap: 5) <BR>
<BR>
Small Craft: 1 x Docking Ring (2 std), with 1 x VA-1 Utility Landing Vehicle (cost MCr 1.149)<BR>
<BR>
Backups <BR>
Drives: None <BR>
Screens: None<BR>
Communications: 1 x Radio transceiver (50,000 km), 2 x Laser (1,000 AU).<BR>
Sensors: 1 x LIDAR (14 [200 kkm]).<BR>
ECM: None <BR>
Power & Fuel: None <BR>
<BR>
Crew Details: 2 x Maneuver. 1 x Gunner.  1 x Screen.<BR>
<BR>
Note:  This ship uses the unofficial fuel in waste space rule.<BR>
<BR>
Designer's Notes (OOC):<BR>
<BR>
This is the descendant of the ship that gave AuricTech its name.<BR>
<BR>
A while back on the TML, someone asked about designing the Type S using FF&S2.  Well, when I sat down to give it a try, I was appalled at the weak sensor fit on the Type S as listed in the T4 rulebook.  After all, the sensor fit of 2A 3P 0J translates to only a 60,000 km range for the AEMS, a 90,000 km range for the PEMS, and no jamming capability.  So, I added the largest, most powerful sensor suite that would fit.  After all, what good is a nearsighted scout?  I then decided to stealth the hell out of my design, since an undetected scout is much more effective.  By remaining undetected, not only does it avoid engaging in combat (if you can't see it, you can't shoot it), it also prevents the target of the scouting effort from knowing that it is under observation.<BR>
<BR>
Eventually, I ended up with a 100-ton ship that cost MCr 469.656 per.  A hell of an effective scout, but a bit pricey for most missions.  When I posted some of my figures to the TML, Ian Whitchurch (IIRC) observed that this thing had solid gold plumbing.  Hence, I adopted the name AuricTech Shipyards as my nom de plume for ship designing.<BR>
<BR>
Yet I wasn't finished.<BR>
<BR>
Other items clamored to be included.  I added a 10,000 AU directional radio receiver, to allow collection of signals intelligence.  It also made sense to include a laboratory, for on-site research.  These additions suggested the addition of backup flight computers, to allow routine operations to continue while the main computers were working on intercepted messages or scientific problems.  For emergencies, I included an emergency low berth.  To enable the ship to remain on station for extended deployments, I added features such as a gym, better rations, and a sickbay.  In the end, I ended up with the ship described above: a highly capable scout, which costs just under 29 times as much as the standard Type S.<BR>
<BR>
It's good to be AuricTech!<BR>
<BR>
**end transmission**<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
==<BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/colverber/travler.html<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
_____________________________________________________________<BR>
Check out our community at...<BR>
http://esweeet.community.everyone.net<BR>
<BR>
and access the world's best search engines instantly at...<BR>
http://search.esweeet.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2000 11:36:45 -0700<BR>
From: "Mike Linsenmayer" <mlinsenmayer@symantec.com><BR>
Subject: CLT- Picture<BR>
<BR>
Introducing Ling Standards Classic CLT-12 Language translator. Comes<BR>
Equipped with Vilani, Vegan, and a Terran language of your choice. As an<BR>
added bonus we throw in three blank CLT Chips. All for only 2,000cr.<BR>
<BR>
http://www.bigbailey.com/vspace/art/picture-g.htm<BR>
<BR>
This is the Classic CLT from the World Builders handbooks and the Traveller<BR>
- - New Era equipment lists. (Page 340?)<BR>
<BR>
Enjoy,<BR>
<BR>
Mike<BR>
<BR>
- --------------------------------------------------<BR>
Mike Linsenmayer<BR>
http://www.bigbailey.com<BR>
<BR>
Traveller<BR>
http://www.bigbailey.com/vspace<BR>
- --------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2000 20:23:06 +0100 <BR>
From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com><BR>
Subject: RE: TL/Pixie<BR>
<BR>
Found at http://www.downport.com/tas/1105.htm ... check  out  the<BR>
first three stories.  (These are the original  TAS  news  stories<BR>
published by GDW 2 RL decades ago.)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Phil Kitching wrote:<BR>
> Perhaps Pixie is a new facility, built there to avoid people<BR>
> snooping on the drop tank production facilities.<BR>
<BR>
Existed in 1105  ...  and  experienced  an  explosion  that  year<BR>
alleged to be caused by the  Ine  Givar.  So  much  for  stopping<BR>
people snooping.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> Perhaps all they currently make is the high tech jump drive<BR>
> bits that are then shipped to other (low tech) class A stations<BR>
> in the Marches (eg Regina).<BR>
<BR>
General Shipyards' Vehicle Assembly Building  No  3  housed  main<BR>
assembly line for production of L-Hyd tanks in joint project with<BR>
Tukera Lines.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> Perhaps the yard is actually TL15/16 but only for jump drive <BR>
> capacitors.<BR>
> <BR>
> Perhaps, if the drop tank thing takes off in the Marches,<BR>
> they'll recruit lots of workers and significantly alter the<BR>
> population, gov and law codes in the next survey (around<BR>
> 1200?). If the yard isn't in the belt, but is in orbit around a<BR>
> small planet, the entire UWP could change.<BR>
<BR>
The announcement alone certainly had  an  effect  on  the  Regina<BR>
Stock Market.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Regards PLST<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2000 12:27:27 -0700<BR>
From: scharlto@ifsna.com<BR>
Subject: Jonkereen (was Re: TML Landgrab) <BR>
<BR>
If nobody else has mentioned it (I am a bit behind on the<BR>
digests), the Jonkereen are a geneered version of Humans,<BR>
altered to live in a low atmosphere pressure desert world.  I<BR>
think it was covered either in some Travellers Digest issues,<BR>
the Solomani and Aslan DGP book, or both.<BR>
<BR>
Steve Charlton<BR>
Who just dug out a whole bunch of old Traveller stuff for some<BR>
info requests...<BR>
<BR>
Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com> said:<BR>
<BR>
>From: "James W. Lindsay" <jlindsay@home.com><BR>
<BR>
>>According to BtC, Quopist is the home of both humans and the<BR>
>>"Jonkeereen"-- an unknown race (at least there's no write-up<BR>
in<BR>
><BR>
>>BtC that I can find).  The races are divided approximately<BR>
>>47%/53% respectively.<BR>
><BR>
>That sounds vaguely familiar, but I recall the Jonkeereen from<BR>
>much longer ago, like CT or MT era.  I'll see what I can find<BR>
as<BR>
>I'm going through back issues of Challenge, etc., for<BR>
>information on Mongo.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2241<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2242</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
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Traveller-digest       Monday, April 3 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2242<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
General Land Grab query<BR>
T4 to MT Weapon Damage Conversion<BR>
Re: CLT- Picture<BR>
RE: Notes on building Heya<BR>
re: Hard Times (was re: Re: Stellar Data question)<BR>
Re: Starports<BR>
Re: TL/Pixie<BR>
Dolphins in GT<BR>
Re: Draft thoughts on Ochetate<BR>
Re: Filk explosion! Dulinor went to Capital<BR>
Re: Filk explosion! Dulinor went to Capital<BR>
Re: General Land Grab query<BR>
Re: Filk explosion! Dulinor went to Capital<BR>
Re: Jonkereen (was Re: TML Landgrab) <BR>
Re: Stellar Data question..<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2000 12:29:04 -0700<BR>
From: scharlto@ifsna.com<BR>
Subject: General Land Grab query<BR>
<BR>
This may have been covered already and I missed it.<BR>
<BR>
What is the preferred medium for the Land Grab?  My Spirelle<BR>
writeup is getting large, and might fill a digest or three.  Is<BR>
the idea to post it in sections, put it on the web, or both?<BR>
<BR>
Steven Charlton<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2000 14:56:56 -0500 <BR>
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com><BR>
Subject: T4 to MT Weapon Damage Conversion<BR>
<BR>
Has anyone by chance designed shipboard weaponry and<BR>
then converted them to MT penetration/damage ratings?<BR>
<BR>
If so, could you share what algorithms were used<BR>
for the conversion?<BR>
<BR>
David<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2000 16:24:05 -0400<BR>
From: "Thom Harris" <thomharr@mediaone.net><BR>
Subject: Re: CLT- Picture<BR>
<BR>
Very nicely done Mike. Thank You!!!!!<BR>
<BR>
Thom<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: "Mike Linsenmayer" <mlinsenmayer@symantec.com><BR>
Sent: Monday, April 03, 2000 2:36 PM<BR>
Subject: CLT- Picture<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> Introducing Ling Standards Classic CLT-12 Language translator. Comes<BR>
> Equipped with Vilani, Vegan, and a Terran language of your choice. As an<BR>
> added bonus we throw in three blank CLT Chips. All for only 2,000cr.<BR>
> http://www.bigbailey.com/vspace/art/picture-g.htm<BR>
> This is the Classic CLT from the World Builders handbooks and the<BR>
Traveller<BR>
> - New Era equipment lists. (Page 340?)<BR>
> Enjoy,<BR>
> Mike<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2000 16:28:46 -0400<BR>
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca><BR>
Subject: RE: Notes on building Heya<BR>
<BR>
Chris Seamans writes:<BR>
<snipped><BR>
>>>Not really. There are a number of low-tech societies in the real world<BR>
>>>that seem to manage just fine by importing high-tech farming equipment<BR>
>>>and supplies. If there is as much money involved as you seem to think,<BR>
>>>then surely Heya would be able to import the best equipment and personnel<BR>
>>>to train them in the use of that equipment, to repair it, and so on.<BR>
>>In which case Heya would be a higher TL. Even though this isn't stated<BR>
>>explicitly anywhere, it is implicit in quite a lot of rules. For instance,<BR>
>>economic output is always based on the given TL of the planet. If Heya's<BR>
>>TL was effectively higher, its economic output would be based on that<BR>
>>higher TL, regadless of whether or not it could be maintained locally.<BR>
>There are several different systems for economic output floating around out<BR>
>there. Without picking any *one*, we have moved into a discussion that is on<BR>
>a different level than the rules. In real life there are societies that are<BR>
>TL1 or so, but have access to high-tech chemical fertilizers, excellent<BR>
>seeds and, in many cases, state of the art farm machinery. Still, they are<BR>
>for all intents and purposes TL1 or so. There are societies like this that<BR>
>would currently be considered TL5.<BR>
>If the TL system is to be considered as strict as you seem to imply, then it<BR>
>ceases to be useful, not to mention the fact that it starts to feel<BR>
>extremely unrealistic.<BR>
<BR>
	I certainly allow TL 10 stuff on TL 5 worlds, but I would hesitate to<BR>
	have the major industry of a TL 5 world dominated by TL 10 technology.<BR>
	Perhaps the seed has been genetically modified, advanced fertilizers<BR>
	and pesticides used, even a few high-tech farms, but I would expect the<BR>
	vast majority of farms on a TL 5 world to use TL 5 equipment.  That's<BR>
	what TL means to me: the technology that is widely available to residents<BR>
	of the world.  I suppose that it could be argued that certain sectors of<BR>
	that society use TL 10 equipment for specific purposes, but that level of<BR>
	complexity tends to invalidate the TL rating for me.  YMMV.<BR>
<BR>
>It ceases to be useful simply because it is no longer considered to be the<BR>
>arbitrary abstraction that it actually is. It's foolish to believe that tech<BR>
>level tells you anything more than the sorts of things which may typically<BR>
>be found on the world. It starts to feel unrealistic because it specifically<BR>
>disallows the selling of manufactured materials from high-tech worlds to<BR>
>low-tech worlds. The major flaws in this logic are apparent when you realize<BR>
>that this means that industrialized worlds will have no exports, and hence<BR>
>can make no money in a system that is based on the trading of such<BR>
>materials.<BR>
<snipped><BR>
<BR>
	It is hard to defend the disparity in TL between nearby worlds in the<BR>
	OTU.  Given that such disparity is accepted, one can go one of two ways:<BR>
	either interstellar trade does not equalize TLs (at least, not very<BR>
	quickly), or the TLs are "soft" (Heya might have effectively TL 12<BR>
	farms).  I go for the former.  IMTU, Industrial high-tech worlds do not<BR>
	tend to export high-tech products to low-tech worlds.  There is always<BR>
	some, but on Heya I would have gravetic soil-turners and robotic fruit-<BR>
	pickers very rare.  The lack of TL 12 support, technical knowledge, and<BR>
	the expense of maintenance (plus possible governmental rules) may argue<BR>
	against such excesses.  The TL 12 Industrial world may well export <BR>
	effectively TL 5 equipment to Heya (this is done to some extent between<BR>
	countries here on Terra).  Thus, the steam engine pulling the grain-laiden<BR>
	train may have been built off-planet, but it is simple to maintain and <BR>
	the coal/wood and water are found locally.<BR>
<BR>
Peez<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2000 19:31:27 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: re: Hard Times (was re: Re: Stellar Data question)<BR>
<BR>
At 10:21 -0400 3/4/00, Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
> >Some *will* fail. Maybe even a *lot*. But between the "normal"<BR>
> >occurence of accidents and stories out of the Long Night, I just don't<BR>
> >see *most* planets, much less *all* of them being so stupid as to not<BR>
> >take precautions.<BR>
<BR>
Hmm. One thing about the survivability and laying in of stocks. It's <BR>
human nature to skimp on the future to benefit today. I can't see <BR>
that changing, unless the Vilani have a longer term look.<BR>
<BR>
And as another observation - compared to most other ships of its day, <BR>
the Titanic had significantly more lifeboat places as a proportion of <BR>
the occupants. More than legally required. But not enough.<BR>
<BR>
I find the collapse as shown in _Hard Times_ believable.<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2000 19:21:05 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Starports<BR>
<BR>
At 10:21 -0400 3/4/00, shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) wrote:<BR>
> > We use Intergraph CAD (Microstation SE) at work, and I actually<BR>
> > crashed it because the memory got eaten by it....<BR>
><BR>
>Too weird. One of my system is an "old" Intergraph TD-3 (90). I'm using<BR>
>it for a server and it "only" has 148 meg in it (the SIMMs to bring it<BR>
>to the max of 192 are on order)<BR>
<BR>
It's the NT4 version - PII 233MHz w/64 Mb RAM then. May try it again <BR>
now I'm upgraded to 128Mb.<BR>
<BR>
I'm waiting for the MacOS version from their 'home use policy'. ;-)<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2000 22:50:27 +0200 (MET DST)<BR>
From: Tommy Grav <tommy.grav@astro.uio.no><BR>
Subject: Re: TL/Pixie<BR>
<BR>
On Mon, 3 Apr 2000, Phil Kitching wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Perhaps Pixie is a new facility, built there to avoid people snooping<BR>
>on the drop tank production facilities.<BR>
><BR>
>"There are always possibilities" (attributed to Mr Spock)<BR>
<BR>
[Lots of possibilities snipped]<BR>
<BR>
Or maybe the survey is just plain wrong. Maybe the 90 was the first<BR>
set of workers at the factory. Maybe the owners of the yards wanted <BR>
it to be a secret and paid of the scout or hid the workers. <BR>
<BR>
Things ar not always as they seem :-)<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
>Phil Kitching<BR>
>--<BR>
>  http://www.btinternet.com/~salvo/<BR>
>  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.<BR>
> "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
Tommy Grav<BR>
- -------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
tommy.grav@astro.uio.no     http://www.uio.no/~tommygr/  <BR>
Institute of Astrophysics, UiO, No  <BR>
IMTU tn++t4+tg+ ru+ge++ !3i jt+au+st+ls hi++dr-so++zh-sy-sw++ <BR>
 <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2000 16:14:19 -0500<BR>
From: "Kevin C. Carpenter" <teruiki@swbell.net><BR>
Subject: Dolphins in GT<BR>
<BR>
>I have yet to see their stats in TNE, T4, T5, or GT, although with<BR>
>the upcoming Solomani Rim sourcebook from GT, they may make an<BR>
>appearance. Not sure, though.<BR>
><BR>
>Hope this helps,<BR>
>Jason<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
I didn't think there were any stats for them in GT, either, until I noticed<BR>
them hidden away in GT Alien Races 2, in the sidebar on pg. 138 as slaves of<BR>
the Inyx. You'd just need to remove the various Inyx-inflicted disads and<BR>
you'd have the basics for the dolphin racial template.<BR>
<BR>
Thanks for the other info!<BR>
<BR>
- - Kevin<BR>
kccarpenter@swbell.net<BR>
<BR>
>I have yet to see their stats in TNE, T4, T5, or GT, although with<BR>
>the upcoming Solomani Rim sourcebook from GT, they may make an<BR>
>appearance. Not sure, though.<BR>
><BR>
>Hope this helps,<BR>
>Jason<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2000 12:55:22<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Draft thoughts on Ochetate<BR>
<BR>
At 09:41 AM 4/1/2000 +1000, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Very little of this is about the astrophysics of Ochetate's system -<BR>
>although if anyone wants to do a full Book 6/WBH/FI writeup of a E747569-7<BR>
>210 G8V M8D system I'd be grateful (*hint*).<BR>
<BR>
Gridlore Custom Planets at your service!<BR>
<BR>
I'll detail out the system and send you the results in a day or so.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2000 12:59:53<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Filk explosion! Dulinor went to Capital<BR>
<BR>
At 03:12 PM 3/29/2000 -0600, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Geez, Doug, how *do* you keep doing this?!?<BR>
<BR>
Several factors.  A lifetime in SF fandom, no sense of shame whatsoever, a<BR>
sick sense of humor, and heaps of time on my hands.<BR>
<BR>
>Awesome!<BR>
<BR>
Thank yew kindly.<BR>
<BR>
>Uh..you are putting all TML filks (including yours) on<BR>
>the Silly Era site, right?<BR>
<BR>
They are going up on the Travfilk page, which has been sepaerated from the<BR>
Silly Era.  A number of the songs I've been getting (and writing) have been<BR>
pretty serious, so the area deserved it's own space on Sylea Downport.<BR>
<BR>
This song won't go up without some more tweaking, but I've just uploaded a<BR>
number of the filks we've seen recently.<BR>
<BR>
Next up: A song about the fall of the RoM to the tune of "Spirits in the<BR>
Night."<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2000 13:05:50<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Filk explosion! Dulinor went to Capital<BR>
<BR>
At 03:36 PM 3/29/2000 PST, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Play "Dawson's Christian" for your players. And even though parts of it<BR>
>aren't quite "right" for the TU, it'll *still* send shivers up their<BR>
>spines. <BR>
<BR>
Just hearing the name sends shivers up my spine..  I heard Leslie Fish sing<BR>
this on the Cape's South Beach the night before a shuttle launch.  In the<BR>
spirit of the night, sea and space chanties and stories were the theme.<BR>
<BR>
Easily the third best filk experience of my life.  The second was hearing<BR>
five hundred people singing "Ladyhawk" at NASFIC.  The best was the "Hope<BR>
Eyrie" that closed out the Challenger Memorial Concert.<BR>
<BR>
"So pity us poor spacers wherever we roam,<BR>
For there's no guarantee we'll ever come home." <BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2000 14:17:32<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: General Land Grab query<BR>
<BR>
At 12:29 PM 4/3/2000 -0700, you wrote:<BR>
>This may have been covered already and I missed it.<BR>
><BR>
>What is the preferred medium for the Land Grab?  My Spirelle<BR>
>writeup is getting large, and might fill a digest or three.  Is<BR>
>the idea to post it in sections, put it on the web, or both?<BR>
<BR>
I believe downport.com has offered to host.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2000 17:10:42 -0500<BR>
From: "Shadowcat" <meow@advancenet.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Filk explosion! Dulinor went to Capital<BR>
<BR>
You've done some great work Doug,<BR>
maybe its time to put out some pointer to filk sites and <BR>
distributors, so some of the rest of the folks can hear<BR>
some of this wonderful music for themselves.<BR>
<BR>
I've only heard the tape of Hope Eyerie from the Challenger <BR>
Memorial concert. but it must have been an incredible experience.<BR>
<BR>
as for serious filks, theres a new filk CD out called Shai Dorsai<BR>
thats all dorsai songs, and the choral version of Jaques Chretien<BR>
is just awesome.<BR>
<BR>
the trilogy of songs to the tune of Rolling Down to Old Maui<BR>
that finishes with Green Hills of Earth is one of my favorites.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2000 18:27:49 -0400<BR>
From: "Josh W. Spencer" <macmanjws@earthlink.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Jonkereen (was Re: TML Landgrab) <BR>
<BR>
Steve Charlton wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> If nobody else has mentioned it (I am a bit behind on the<BR>
> digests), the Jonkereen are a geneered version of Humans,<BR>
> altered to live in a low atmosphere pressure desert world.  I<BR>
> think it was covered either in some Travellers Digest issues,<BR>
> the Solomani and Aslan DGP book, or both.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
FROM TRAVELLERS' DIGEST #19: Library Data of the Deneb Sector<BR>
<BR>
JONKEEREEN: These natives of Jonkeer (1324 C4908C9-9) are the product of<BR>
extensive geneering by the Imperial Ministry of Colonization. The project's<BR>
goal was the creation of a human subspecies perfectly suited to life in a<BR>
hostile desert environment. Begun five centuries ago, the project has proven<BR>
successful: over 400 million enhanced humans inhabit Jonkeer, and millions<BR>
more live on desert planets throughout the Domain of Deneb and beyond.<BR>
The average Jonkeerin is tall, thin and dark-skinned, much like human desert<BR>
dwellers throughout space. Thorough modifications have moved the Jonkeereen<BR>
far from the human norm, however. A combination of genetic engineering and<BR>
adaptive surgery aided the first Jonkeereen; later generations bred true to<BR>
the Ministry's specifications.<BR>
The Jonkeerin's adaptations are many. Protective membranes shield his eyes<BR>
and ears from windblown sand; changes to his metabolism allow survival on<BR>
the scant resources of arid plains. A highly efficient perspiration system<BR>
and a large body surface area work to cool him in temperatures often<BR>
exceeding 50 C -- far above human tolerance. His dark complexion shields<BR>
him from the radiation of Jonkeer's lurid red sun.<BR>
While the Jonkeereen have changed in form, their culture has also changed.<BR>
The Jonkeerin lifestyle is austere, and many visitors find the local customs<BR>
harsh. Both conservatism and cooperation are basic traits of the Jonkeerin<BR>
mindset. Because they are no longer fully human, Jonkeereen are typically<BR>
aloof, emotionally distant from their cousins. The local Scout base is<BR>
engaged in long-term observations of the Jonkeerin culture and its departure<BR>
from human standards.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Josh W. Spencer (macmanjws@earthlink.net)<BR>
VILANI ALIAS: Iashir Rekiinikimas Uiagam<BR>
Ypsilanti, Michigan, North America, Terra<BR>
Sol Subsector, Solomani Rim Sector<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2000 13:14:54 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Stellar Data question..<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) wrote<BR>
><BR>
>> In mail you write:<BR>
><BR>
>> > shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) wrote<BR>
>> >>> For a world on a main in a high pop sector such a world might be only <BR>
> a <BR>
>> >>> week from a number of sources of TL10 items.<BR>
>> ><BR>
>> >> Try again.<BR>
>> >> Something goes wrong. *Assuming there's a ship available*, it'll take<BR>
>> >> the ship a week to get to *any* other system.<BR>
>> >> That's two weeks *minimum*. Any kind of problem means further delay.<BR>
><BR>
>> > You seem to be assuming that parts have to be special ordered <BR>
>> > which is not always the case. Let's say that our planet has <BR>
>> > 500,000 people. These people live in 200,000 households. Each <BR>
>> > of these households needs a TL 10 air circulation pump. The <BR>
>> > pumps have a mean life span of a little less than 40 years,<BR>
>> > we'll call it a 2,000 week life span. Therefore every week<BR>
>> > this planet will need 100 pumps.<BR>
><BR>
>> Why would the *households* need them? The setup is apt to be far closer<BR>
>> to an overgrown apartment building/mall that to a bunch of indivudual<BR>
>> "houses". <BR>
><BR>
> Why do you assume that people would be willing to live in<BR>
> high density housing when there is a whole planet out there<BR>
> with only half a million people on it? If you have lots of<BR>
> land per person, land is cheap, and people live farther apart.<BR>
><BR>
> Remember that most planets have few people but most people<BR>
> live on high population worlds. This makes it quite possible<BR>
> that lower population (and therefore more likely to be<BR>
> lower population density) worlds may have populations<BR>
> selected for antipathy towards neighbors.<BR>
<BR>
Keep in mind that a lot depends on how dwellings are constructed. Any<BR>
world without a thin or beter atmosphere, or without a substantial<BR>
magnetic field is just about going to *have* to build underground for<BR>
protection from solar flares (yes, even Type M stars can have dangerous<BR>
flares, though I'll readily admit that I have no idea regarding the<BR>
relative frequency compared with G stars). <BR>
<BR>
This means that it's a *hell* of a lot cheaper to dig out a common<BR>
"warren" of tunnels, which give you access to everybody else even<BR>
during flares than to dig a bunch of individual dwellings.<BR>
<BR>
> The frontier has served as a sociological relief valve for<BR>
> people who need a lot of personal space. It still does <BR>
> today here in Alaska. My own brother in law is unhappy if<BR>
> anyone else lives within half a mile of him, by the standards<BR>
> of his area this makes him friendly. A lot of lower population<BR>
> Traveller worlds are going to have significant populations<BR>
> who moved there because the land is Cr 0.1 a hectare and the<BR>
> planetary government, even if it has a high law level, is<BR>
> to far away to bother them.<BR>
<BR>
But the environment is a lot harsher, and dwellings will have to be<BR>
considerably more sophisticated. And the type of "sophistication" tends<BR>
to favor shared services *far* more strongly than anything on Earth.<BR>
<BR>
>> You don't reprocess air or water in individual dwellings, as that's<BR>
>> *way* inefficient. Though households will likely have emergency air<BR>
>> supplies. <BR>
><BR>
> Inefficiency per unit may be preferable to high transport costs.<BR>
<BR>
But that's the *point*, if you can use a "local tech" shared system,<BR>
versus a high tech individualized system, the costs will *greatly*<BR>
favor the "local tech" solution.<BR>
<BR>
>> As a contemporary analog, think of you city's water and swer system.<BR>
>> Unless it's *really* small, the city deals with it, not the<BR>
>> home/building owners. <BR>
><BR>
> Water and sewer system availability is more strongly related<BR>
> to population _density_ than to population size. If households<BR>
> are sufficiently far apart then the costs of running pipes <BR>
> for water and sewer is not cost effective. I live in a <BR>
> city of about 265,000 people at least 5 - 10% of whom have<BR>
> well water and 10 - 20% have septic tanks because it is not<BR>
> cost effective to put these houses on city water & sewer.<BR>
<BR>
But well water isn't *available*. And you need something *considerably*<BR>
more expensive (and maintenance intensive!) than a septic tank to<BR>
reprocess sewage, and to regenerate air. <BR>
<BR>
> In any model that includes non dense populations air will be <BR>
> taken care of the same way. If the typical dwelling is more<BR>
> than X meters from the next dwelling it is cheaper to have an<BR>
> air plant in each house than to run an air pipe between them.<BR>
> The value of X depends on a host of factors but I suspect<BR>
> that on a lot of planets X is somewhere between 100 and<BR>
> 1,000 meters.<BR>
<BR>
Considering the cost of *long term* life support (as opposed to the<BR>
*expensive* short term stuff used on ships) as well as the *heavy*<BR>
maintenance needs of either, it's going to *cost* to *have* dwellings<BR>
that far apart.<BR>
<BR>
Also, assuming (as we were for the planet started this) that subsurface<BR>
ice is the water source, then you are digging tunnels *anyway* (you<BR>
*can't* strip mine ice on a world like that. You'd lose too much to<BR>
sublimation once you stripped the overburden).<BR>
<BR>
Once the ice is gone from an area, the tunnels merely need to be<BR>
sealed and pressurized. And they may have already been sealed during<BR>
the mining.<BR>
<BR>
> I also note that centralized air production is more vulnerable to<BR>
> control by governments and other terrorist organizations so it<BR>
> is quite possible that most Traveller worlds with high or extreme<BR>
> law levels have centralized air even when it is less efficient.<BR>
<BR>
>> All *they* have to do is keep the plumbing in repair. <BR>
>> <BR>
>> > Lets say our planet has 500 people living in 200 households<BR>
>> > with the same TL 10 2,000 week lifespan air pumps. One<BR>
>> > pump will fail every 10 weeks. The single local store will<BR>
>> > carry about two or three in stock and reorder one when the <BR>
>> > first one sells.<BR>
>> <BR>
>> That works for *household* items. The situation is a lot different for<BR>
>> municipal systems. What does your local water deptartment do if a<BR>
>> holding/processing tank springs a leak? <BR>
><BR>
> Another strong argument _not_ to have a local water department<BR>
> or a holding/processing tank but rather to have these things <BR>
> done at the household level.<BR>
<BR>
Except that doing so will cost you a *lot* more than paying the city to<BR>
do it. If nothing else, you'll have to spend time monitoring and<BR>
maintaining your household system. And for something that *small*<BR>
your "input" so "bursty" that a bio system just won't work. Not unless<BR>
you plan to spend all your time trying to balance it. <BR>
<BR>
Ever own a swimming pool? Keeping the chlorine level and pH balance on<BR>
that is *nothing* next to trying to keep a bio based LS system in<BR>
balance for a "house". And a non-bio system is less eficient. It also<BR>
costs a lot in consumables, because recycling is expensive on small<BR>
scales. <BR>
<BR>
Note that the situation on a ship is a lot different. For one thing,<BR>
you have effectively infinite amounts of heat from the reactor, and<BR>
*huge* amounts of power. As well as at least one person whose job it is<BR>
to monitor life support. <BR>
<BR>
On a small ship, like a scout, you still have the "free" heat and<BR>
power. But you also have those $$$$ consumables to buy every month(?).<BR>
<BR>
>> Or if one of the pumps that<BR>
>> handles a major branche line fails (there's a *reason* most water<BR>
>> systems are set up to run on gravity feed whenever possible). <BR>
><BR>
>> >> > Compare it to living anywhere on<BR>
>> >> > Earth now. A small town in the Midwest might be TL5 as far as local<BR>
>> >> > manufacture but people's homes all<BR>
>> >> > have a TL7 computer, CD player or HDTV which are made somewhere <BR>
>> > else and shipped into said town<BR>
><BR>
>> >> But how many of those are *necessary*?<BR>
><BR>
>> >> Also, consider that it's been more than 50 years since there *was*<BR>
>> >> anywhere on Earth that was a two week round trip from needed supplies.<BR>
>> ><BR>
>> > No it has not. There are parts of the Earth (arctic) that<BR>
>> > even today are out of supply range for periods of over two<BR>
>> > weeks, see below.<BR>
><BR>
>> The difference is that they can still *communicate*. So even if they<BR>
>> can't be reached, they can get advice, and they know where things stand.<BR>
><BR>
> Not always as sometimes communication depends on power<BR>
> that has gone out. Alaska has lots of places phone lines<BR>
> won't reach. Until a very few years ago there was _no_ cell<BR>
> coverage outside of metropolitan areas.<BR>
<BR>
So? Communication <> telephone service. Also, phone service has been<BR>
available by radio in a lot of places. (I happen to have an interest in<BR>
telephone systems). Heck, there are places that still use the "operator<BR>
radios the settelment radio operator" method, and have done so since<BR>
before I was born. <BR>
<BR>
They've had radio for decades. At least in the small settlements. And a<BR>
fair number of the folks who live by themselve have one too. <BR>
<BR>
> Moreover what makes you think outside advice is of any use?<BR>
<BR>
> "You say your power plant is out and the manual says you need <BR>
> to replace the XJ-42-170 fuse. Well replace it. What do you<BR>
> mean you don't have a spare. Do you have any similar parts?<BR>
> No, well do you have any manufacturing in town? No. Well then<BR>
> I guess you'd better find another source of power as I can't help<BR>
> you. CLICK"<BR>
<BR>
And a *real* engineer (as opposed to first level tech support) would<BR>
tell them how to rig a replacement out of a chunk of wire of the right<BR>
gauge.<BR>
<BR>
Also, many life support problems are more amenable to work arounds. <BR>
<BR>
The *many* stories of emergency medical procedures done by laymen being<BR>
"talked thru it" over a radio or phone link show the difference a comm<BR>
link can make when comm is faster than travel.<BR>
<BR>
>> >> Assume you live in the Midwest. Say North Dakota. It's midwinter, the<BR>
>> >> drifts are 10 feet high. And your town loses power. <BR>
>> ><BR>
>> > What do you need power for?<BR>
>> <BR>
>> I'm assuming a "typical" house/building. You need power or the damn<BR>
>> *furnace* doesn't work!<BR>
><BR>
> You don't need a generator to keep warm if you have fuel.<BR>
> You can simply burn the heating oil directly out of the barrel<BR>
> it comes in once you cut the top off. When the fuel is gone<BR>
> you are SOL. No matter how self sufficient you are you need<BR>
> lots of fuel to stay warm in the arctic in lower 48 style<BR>
> houses.<BR>
<BR>
But you don't *get* it in a barrel in the midwest (or around here). You<BR>
have a *tank*, usually *buried*. With a fill pipe too small to be much<BR>
use for extracting the fuel. And you can't burn it without the furnace<BR>
unless you *like* carbon monoxide poisoning (or have a fireplace that<BR>
you can rig something in). <BR>
<BR>
This is *why* power failures are so serious in "snow country" in the<BR>
lower 48. The damned houses *can't* be _safely_ heated without it. (And<BR>
I won't even *discuss* things like apartment buildings with electric heat).<BR>
<BR>
> Moreover your "typical" house assumption is questionable, at<BR>
> least in my mind.  "Typical" houses are built the way<BR>
> they are because building codes require that they be<BR>
> built in ways that make more money for builders. The only<BR>
> reason besides building codes for not building house with an R<BR>
> factor of 100+ is that if you insulate your house too well<BR>
> bad air will build up inside due to poor air circulation.<BR>
<BR>
There are ways around that, counter-current heat exchangers not only<BR>
transfer heat from the "exhaust" air to the incoming air, they can<BR>
transfer humidity as well. Which means if the outside humidity is too<BR>
low or too high, you can still exchange air without screwing up the<BR>
humidity inside.<BR>
<BR>
Alas, these require a forced airflow (aka power).<BR>
<BR>
> Since houses on this planet have air recirculation systems capable<BR>
> of dealing with the (more polluted and toxic) outside air<BR>
> then they will not find interior air pollution to be much of<BR>
> a problem.<BR>
<BR>
Tell that to the people who kill themselves via carbon monoxide<BR>
poisoning every year...<BR>
<BR>
>> Yeah, but *we* don't build houses that way. And worse, most modern<BR>
>> building have no provision to be heated by anything *but* the furnace<BR>
>> (at least not *safely*). <BR>
><BR>
> A Franklin stove is about TL 4. A "modern" wood stove is<BR>
> probably TL 7. Single wood stoves can easily heat 10,000<BR>
> cubic foot dwellings at 40 below. Costs of said stoves is<BR>
> under $1,000. If this planet has wood (and some planets won't)<BR>
> then the problem is easy to solve.<BR>
<BR>
Sure, but since they are only needed in emergencies, most houses don't<BR>
*have* them.<BR>
<BR>
And please recall that I'm using "lack of power results in life<BR>
threatening conditions here on earth" as an analogy. An example. To<BR>
show the life support is *not* something that you can trust to "we'll<BR>
send away for replacement parts" when there's a two week or more lag.<BR>
<BR>
>> > If you need power for an air pump then you presumably do<BR>
>> > have a lower tech back up. If I had to design a low tech<BR>
>> > back up for an air pump, and assuming I had no local back up<BR>
>> > power source (generator, solar, geothermal, battery, whatever),<BR>
>> > I would probably use a TL 4 bicycle powered generator or a<BR>
>> > TL 1 treadmill.<BR>
>> <BR>
>> I was using the *current* situation in most of the US as an analogy. If<BR>
>> *we* lose power, we lose heat, which is why many people have<BR>
>> generators of fireplaces. And those with neither get shifted into<BR>
>> places that *can* be kept livable until the power comes back. At least<BR>
>> for the few days it usually takes.<BR>
>> <BR>
>> But if it took two weeks *every* time the power went out, we'd build<BR>
>> differently, we'd have better backup systems, and we'd likely want at<BR>
>> least *some* of the grid to be both more "localized", and repairable<BR>
>> from parts on hand or with tools on hand.<BR>
><BR>
> You admit that power grids would be more localized since loss<BR>
> of power could be deadly but yet you think _air_ would be <BR>
> centralized.<BR>
<BR>
"More localized" <> "done at household level". Though I have argued for<BR>
household power units on worlds where scattered dwelings are the norm.<BR>
<BR>
I think the big difference is that you haven't considered how most<BR>
worlds that require life support are going to get settled. They'll<BR>
start out with some sort of base. Which *will* use centralized<BR>
facilities. And while other settlements may spring up later, that main<BR>
one (and any others that start out a "bases" or "camps" rather than<BR>
individual dwellings) will grow by expanding. Which incldes expanding<BR>
or adding to the "centralized" facilities, simply because that will be<BR>
both easier and *cheaper*. <BR>
<BR>
> If my houses air circulation fails in the middle of the night<BR>
> on a planet with bad air I can/will be _dead_ in minutes. I<BR>
> am going to have a smoke alarm type bad air detector in <BR>
> every room and a filter mask or O2 tank for each person. <BR>
<BR>
And wouldn't you rather have it being handled by someone whose sole job<BR>
is monitoring and repairing the air system?<BR>
<BR>
But the emergency stuff is still a good idea.<BR>
 <BR>
>> >> No people on the phone or radio suggesting ways of coping <BR>
>> >> (of fixing the problem) that you may not have thought of.<BR>
>> ><BR>
>> > Few Alaskan bush communities have this problem now but most<BR>
>> > did less than 20 years ago.<BR>
>> <BR>
>> They had radio telephone setups in most of them quite a bit before<BR>
>> that, didn't they? At least that's the impression I got back in the 60s<BR>
>> (and in stuff from the 50s). After WWII surplus radios pretty much<BR>
>> ensured that anyplace that wanted to be in contact could be.<BR>
><BR>
> Most of the smaller communities and households had radio<BR>
> receivers but few had radio transmitters.<BR>
<BR>
Well, I'd heard somewhat differently. More like, after the war only the<BR>
smallest *didn't*.<BR>
<BR>
>> >> Of yeah, no way in *hell* do you have two weeks of fuel that can be<BR>
>> >> used *without* power.<BR>
><BR>
>> >> Now, if you *know* this, you either *will* have supplies enough to keep<BR>
>> >> going at a lower TL until help arrives, or you'll make *damn* sure that<BR>
>> >> you can do a complete rebuild of the power plant with parts, tools and<BR>
>> >> skills on hand.<BR>
><BR>
> Of this list I think that skills are the most likely to be <BR>
> lacking on low pop planets. Human civilization requires a wide <BR>
> variety of skills. On a low pop planet or town you do not<BR>
> have enough people to ensure that all these skills are represented.<BR>
<BR>
Well, we were talking about a pop 600k. That's rather more likely to<BR>
contain skills the locals consider necessary.<BR>
<BR>
>> Some *will* fail. Maybe even a *lot*. But between the "normal"<BR>
>> occurence of accidents and stories out of the Long Night, I just don't<BR>
>> see *most* planets, much less *all* of them being so stupid as to not<BR>
>> take precautions. <BR>
><BR>
> Hard Times and TNE canon clearly establish that this was <BR>
> the case. By the TNE rules no air or bad air= no people for<BR>
> locations in the wilds. The Long Night was 1,000+ years ago.<BR>
> People tend not to worry much about problems that have not<BR>
> occurred in that long.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> If I were to tell you that your current home town is<BR>
> woefully unsafe because it does not have a wall around it<BR>
> to keep out sword wielding barbarians on horseback from<BR>
> robbing, raping, and killing your family (not necessarily<BR>
> in that order). Or that you were woefully unprepared to defend<BR>
> them because you had not been practicing with your longbow on <BR>
> the village green I don't think it would concern you that<BR>
> much.<BR>
<BR>
Not the longbow part. Because of price, and just to bug certain people,<BR>
I buy my ammo by the *case*. So I have a low maintenance *military*<BR>
rifle, and 1000 rounds, just to start. We won't go into my friend with<BR>
the small arsenal... :-)<BR>
<BR>
And I know how to make black powder (and have friends with BP weapons).<BR>
<BR>
But then again, nobody ever called me "typical" and I grew up with<BR>
folks *expecting* a war...<BR>
<BR>
> You would probably tell me that due to social and technological<BR>
> changes that the scenario above was unlikely. This is _exactly_<BR>
> what the average Imperial citizen circa 1116 would have told <BR>
> you about the possibility of the return of the Long Night.<BR>
<BR>
Long Night scenarios *are* unlikely. <BR>
<BR>
>> And of course, "Hard Times" lasted far longer than it is "reasonable"<BR>
>> to expect to be cut off. To use your Alaskan example, They *should*<BR>
>> expect to be cut off for 3 months fairly often. So they stock things<BR>
>> accordingly, and probably use some gear that they wouldn't if they had<BR>
>> more regular contact. Big, heavy "crude" gas, and even *steam* engines<BR>
>> are found frequently in places like this. Because they are *rugged*,<BR>
>> and *simple*. A *blacksmith* can repair just about any part other than<BR>
>> the actual "cylinder".<BR>
><BR>
> Actually the typical pattern in rural Alaska is for a town<BR>
> to buy bigger more sophisticated generators with outside<BR>
> money and see them fail in  less than a decade due to a lack<BR>
> of qualified maintenance personnel. The conditions in most<BR>
> of the smaller bush towns are such that the only thing keeping<BR>
> 80+% of the population from leaving, dying, or regressing<BR>
> to TL 0 is outside assistance. When you include the fact that<BR>
> in some of these communities the _majority_ of the adult<BR>
> population have a substance abuse problem they become almost<BR>
> surreal.<BR>
<BR>
Too many "would be" pioneers can't handle the reality. I'm not sure if<BR>
I could. And I'm not as young as I used to be. But I also used to be<BR>
part of a group that were *sane* "survivalists". We actually sat down<BR>
and tried to figure out what sort of stuff a small town *could*<BR>
support, as well as planning on high-tech stuff that could be used<BR>
until it broke.<BR>
<BR>
>> >> Again, if the world can't re*build* it locally, they'll stick to life<BR>
>> >> support tech that they can. Even two weeks would be no picnic. A month?<BR>
>> >> I don't even want to *think* about it.<BR>
><BR>
>> > People in extreme arctic climates make plans for this sort<BR>
>> > of problem even now. I would not want to live in the bush<BR>
>> > myself but I know plenty of people who do.<BR>
>> <BR>
>> Right. They generally stick to gear they can fix. If they *need* the<BR>
>> gear, and it just plain *can't* be fixed locally if it breaks, they<BR>
>> stock spare parts. And always, *lots* of batteries and fuel. <BR>
><BR>
> The basic situation in the bush is that traditional native <BR>
> housing has fairly tight quarters (to keep the inhabitants<BR>
> warm). Earlier in this century white people _forced_ natives<BR>
> to abandon their sod based, sunken entry homes in favor of<BR>
> houses (poorly) designed for the lower 48. Even today if a Native <BR>
> family wanted to live in a traditional style house they would <BR>
> risk having their children taken away from them.<BR>
<BR>
> A white social worker would hear that this family was had<BR>
> for people living in a 400 square foot dwelling, would<BR>
> investigate, and would recommend that the children be<BR>
> removed from the home on the grounds that the parents were<BR>
> not providing adequate housing for their children.<BR>
<BR>
<sigh> Stupidity uber alles...<BR>
<BR>
*And* cultural imperialism.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2242<BR>
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Traveller-digest       Monday, April 3 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2243<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Evidence of a free Press in the Third Imperium <BR>
re:  Madoc Subsector: Starports<BR>
RE: Notes on building Heya<BR>
2 vehicles from those fine people at Quiathat MFG<BR>
Re Dolphins<BR>
[none]<BR>
RE: CLT- Picture<BR>
RE: Filk explosion! Dulinor went to Capital<BR>
RE: 2 vehicles from those fine people at Quiathat MFG<BR>
Re: 2 vehicles from those fine people at Quiathat MFG<BR>
Re: OT: Organized Resistance <BR>
Re: _Scandalous_ class Modified Type S (FF&S2) [Long]<BR>
re:  The Landgrab - Cipatwe/RhylanorCipatwe/Rhylanor<BR>
Re: Starports<BR>
Re: D Neb<BR>
Re: Tee En Ess<BR>
Re: Combat Armor<BR>
Re: GDW & DGP<BR>
Re: TNS Instantaneous Communication<BR>
RE: Combat Armor<BR>
Landgrab question<BR>
Re: Clyde<BR>
Re: Notes on building Heya<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2000 16:10:43 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Evidence of a free Press in the Third Imperium <BR>
<BR>
>From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
<BR>
>Have you ever wondered who _owns_ TNS anyway?<BR>
<BR>
I've always assumed that it was wholly owned by the Travellers'<BR>
Aid Society ("The Traveller News Service is an Imperium-wide<BR>
benefit of membership in the Travellers' Aid Society").  Who<BR>
owns TAS?  Being unaware of any dispositive canon on this point,<BR>
I say that in my Traveller universe its members do.  The<BR>
membership of the TAS is probably generally loyal to the<BR>
Imperium, conservative even, so TNS probably follows the<BR>
Imperial government's line.<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.<BR>
http://im.yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2000 16:20:12 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: re:  Madoc Subsector: Starports<BR>
<BR>
>From: "Alvin" <aplummer@idirect.com><BR>
<BR>
Excellent post, Alvin!<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.<BR>
http://im.yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2000 16:30:44 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Notes on building Heya<BR>
<BR>
>From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net><BR>
<BR>
Historically and cross-culturally on earth, farming has always<BR>
had very low profit margins.  Every society with a large<BR>
agricultural component has had to grapple with issues of feeding<BR>
the farmers.  Will it be different in the Far Future?  Why and<BR>
why not?  Or under what circumstances will it be the same and<BR>
different?<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
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Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.<BR>
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<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 07:54:27 +1000<BR>
From: "Katharine Whitchurch" <katts@globalfreeway.com.au><BR>
Subject: 2 vehicles from those fine people at Quiathat MFG<BR>
<BR>
These arent FS designs, so you all can pick up your coffee cups again.<BR>
<BR>
Basically, they are two lo-tech but IMO effective vehicles, built on<BR>
Quiathat (Five Sisters 0637) for the export markets.<BR>
<BR>
The first one is a sealed construction vehicle, designed for use on mining<BR>
camps on worlds with no atmosphere, and the second is a Grav APC with a<BR>
civilian variant. Both are built under FFS2.<BR>
<BR>
TL8 Construction Vehicle (1.5 dton, 3dton as RO-RO cargo)<BR>
<BR>
1.5 dton Medium Box (0.7 cm Comp Lam hull) 0.48 m3, 3.84t, KCr 4 (AF 7 -<BR>
should stop micrometeorites - 4.2 m long, 2.2 m wide and high)<BR>
<BR>
10 m3 Type II Life Support Cabin 0.05 m3, 0.05t, KCr 3 (12 hours air<BR>
recycling)<BR>
<BR>
1 Comp-Linked WS 7m3, 0.22t, KCr 1.1 (includes adequate seat)<BR>
<BR>
CM1/CP 1 Computer 0.03 m3, 0.01t, KCr 1.5 (it's a real computer)<BR>
<BR>
50 km radio KCr 0.5<BR>
<BR>
TL8 Nav Aids KCr 5 (Inertial + Satellite positioning)<BR>
<BR>
Minimal Airlock 1m3, 0.06t, KCr 1<BR>
<BR>
0.5 MW Tracks 0.75 m3, 0.75t, KCr 60<BR>
<BR>
5 m3 TL8 Batteries 5m3, 10t, KCr 10 (1 MW hr)<BR>
<BR>
2 m3 construction equipment 2m3, 2t, KCr 10<BR>
<BR>
KCr 96.1 ; 17t mass ; Max Speed 30 kmh (road), 6 kmh (off road)<BR>
<BR>
Note that it only has enough power for about 110 minutes of operations at<BR>
full power. Many vehicles will carry a trailer with extra batteries ; some<BR>
mining sites have a small power plant to recharge batteries. Some even<BR>
connect a power cord from such a plant directly to the engineering vehcles.<BR>
<BR>
The forklift version will lift 16t. The bulldozer version will push 80 m3 of<BR>
dirt per hour. The shovel version will dig to a depth of 4 meters, and will<BR>
remove 8 m3 of dirt per hour.<BR>
<BR>
The sealed environment allows the operator to work in shirt-sleeves.<BR>
<BR>
Note that higher TL battery packs allow substantially longer durations -<BR>
batteries double in efficiency at TL9, then double again at TL10. If you<BR>
want to go the whole hog, a TL13 fusion plant will let it run virtually<BR>
forever (albeit this cost KCr 300 in TL13 credits. If you are goanna do<BR>
this, upgrade the life support to type III or even IV. Heck, redesign the<BR>
whole thing. It's like putting a fission plant on a Studebaker).<BR>
<BR>
This is a good speculative cargo for PCs heading out to the fringe, as they<BR>
are reasonably value dense (even in Imperial Credits, it still should be<BR>
worth KCr 10 per dton) and quite useful on the frontier. Note that as TL8<BR>
construction, it should be able to be bought at a substantial discount to<BR>
the list price, if the buyer will pay in hard Imperial credits.<BR>
<BR>
***************************************<BR>
<BR>
Chufter IV Grav APC - 3dton, 6 dton as Ro-Ro<BR>
<BR>
3 dton Long Box (6.4 m long, 3.2 m wide, 1.6 m high)<BR>
<BR>
2 cm Comp Lam hull (Fac 17 - 7 cm hard steel) ; 1.69 m3, 13.6 t, KCr 14<BR>
<BR>
TL6 Transonic Streamlining (1.4 thrust mult) ; 2.1 m3<BR>
<BR>
2x Enhanced Electronic Crewstations ; 7m3, 0.4t, KCr 1.5<BR>
<BR>
TL8 Avionics +Nav Aids (Satellite+Intertial Positioning, Imaging Radar,<BR>
FLIR) ; KCr 25<BR>
<BR>
500 power radio ; KCr 5<BR>
<BR>
1.3 m3 Adv IC Turbine (1 MW) ; 1.3 m3, 1.3t, KCr 13<BR>
<BR>
1200 l Hydrocarbons (6 hours at full power) ; 1.2 m3, 1.08t <KCr 0.3 per<BR>
refill><BR>
<BR>
0.6 MW Std AG (TL 9 - 300 kN) ; 0.9 m3, 1.14t, KCr 3.6<BR>
<BR>
8 Adequate Seats ; 28 m3, 0.2t, KCr 1<BR>
<BR>
Pintle Mount ; 0.1 m3, 0.1t<BR>
<BR>
Total Mass 20 t ; Total Cost KCr 64 ; 140 kph max speed, 105 kph cruise, 40<BR>
kph NOE<BR>
<BR>
Built as a very bare-bones cheap Grav APC, the stubby wings and clean lines<BR>
of the Chufter Mk IV are a common sight on the fringes of District 268 and<BR>
Five Sisters. Designed to transport 8 troops from A to B in reasonable<BR>
safety, many things have been sacrificed for low cost.<BR>
<BR>
A civilian model is available - basically, the armour is shaved down to 0.4<BR>
mm (fac 3 - 1 cm hard steel), and this leads to a reduction in mass to 10t,<BR>
which doubles the airspeed of the vehicle, and cuts the cost down to KCr 54.<BR>
<BR>
Note that whilst built on Quiathat, this vehicle cannot actually be used on<BR>
it, becasue the air-breathing engine just will not work on a world that<BR>
lacks a functional atmosphere.<BR>
<BR>
<I built this for the Mewey Occupation Force on Ochetate. Note the various<BR>
military weaknesses of the vehicle - lack of redundancy, low power radio,<BR>
lack of armament, lack of ECM, relativly short legs (about 300 km round<BR>
trip), vulnerability to AT weapons thru lack of reactive armour etc. A Grav<BR>
BMP this aint. On the other hand, it only costs KCr 64>.<BR>
<BR>
Ian Whitchurch<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2000 12:19:54 -0800<BR>
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re Dolphins<BR>
<BR>
>> Not a bit mechanically in MT, and haven't seen squat for TNE. I recall but<BR>
>> the one article on dolphins for CT, in JTAS.<BR>
><BR>
>What about the various Solomani alien books?<BR>
><BR>
There might be some throw-away references, but there are no game mechanics<BR>
for dolphins in those.<BR>
<BR>
William F. Hostman  |  "Smith & Wesson: THe original Point and Click<BR>
interface!"<BR>
Aramis 0602 C55A364-C S kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge-<BR>
533<BR>
aramis@gci.net http://home.gci.net/~aramis Vilani: uilamaanamti sirohbrankilin<BR>
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn- t4-- tt+ to- tg-- ru+ ge 3i+ c+ jt-() au+ st- ls<BR>
pi+() ta+ he+(-) kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge- pi+<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2000 12:41:17 -0800<BR>
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net><BR>
Subject: [none]<BR>
<BR>
>>> No people on the phone or radio suggesting ways of coping<BR>
>>> (of fixing the problem) that you may not have thought of.<BR>
>><BR>
>> Few Alaskan bush communities have this problem now but most<BR>
>> did less than 20 years ago.<BR>
><BR>
>They had radio telephone setups in most of them quite a bit before<BR>
>that, didn't they? At least that's the impression I got back in the 60s<BR>
>(and in stuff from the 50s). After WWII surplus radios pretty much<BR>
>ensured that anyplace that wanted to be in contact could be.<BR>
<BR>
VHF Radiotelephone doesn't work for most bush communities, except to nearby<BR>
aircraft. Too many terrain features. Yeah, every wacko in A shack has a<BR>
radio available. Most don't get any benefit except telling incoming planes<BR>
"Go Away" or "Land over THERE". Likewise, you can't hit the satelites for<BR>
SatPhone. So you're left with AM. (HF and SW bands bounce back down, but<BR>
not close enough in many cases.) And very few have AM transmitters.<BR>
<BR>
Alaska weather creates situations were small communities can be weathered<BR>
in for months at a time; flying in alaska requires essentially MVFR weather<BR>
in order to even FIND the smaller communities, let alone land at them.<BR>
<BR>
Ob Trav: Well, at least worlds can't be weathered in so well. Alaskan bush<BR>
communites, however, make a wonderful model on a highly energetic<BR>
ecosystem: small, isolated, but able to be in contact one-two seasons per<BR>
cycle.<BR>
<BR>
William F. Hostman  |  "Smith & Wesson: THe original Point and Click<BR>
interface!"<BR>
Aramis 0602 C55A364-C S kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge-<BR>
533<BR>
aramis@gci.net http://home.gci.net/~aramis Vilani: uilamaanamti sirohbrankilin<BR>
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn- t4-- tt+ to- tg-- ru+ ge 3i+ c+ jt-() au+ st- ls<BR>
pi+() ta+ he+(-) kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge- pi+<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2000 16:38:33 -0700<BR>
From: Jesse DeGraff <jdegraff@pacbell.net><BR>
Subject: RE: CLT- Picture<BR>
<BR>
NICE work Mike!<BR>
<BR>
And now for something that everyone keeps saying to me:<BR>
"MORE!!!!"<BR>
<BR>
:)<BR>
Jesse<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Mike<BR>
> Linsenmayer<BR>
> Sent: Monday, April 03, 2000 11:37 AM<BR>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> Subject: CLT- Picture<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> Introducing Ling Standards Classic CLT-12 Language translator. Comes<BR>
> Equipped with Vilani, Vegan, and a Terran language of your choice. As an<BR>
> added bonus we throw in three blank CLT Chips. All for only 2,000cr.<BR>
> <BR>
> http://www.bigbailey.com/vspace/art/picture-g.htm<BR>
> <BR>
> This is the Classic CLT from the World Builders handbooks and the <BR>
> Traveller<BR>
> - New Era equipment lists. (Page 340?)<BR>
> <BR>
> Enjoy,<BR>
> <BR>
> Mike<BR>
> <BR>
> --------------------------------------------------<BR>
> Mike Linsenmayer<BR>
> http://www.bigbailey.com<BR>
> <BR>
> Traveller<BR>
> http://www.bigbailey.com/vspace<BR>
> --------------------------------------------------<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2000 16:41:34 -0700<BR>
From: Jesse DeGraff <jdegraff@pacbell.net><BR>
Subject: RE: Filk explosion! Dulinor went to Capital<BR>
<BR>
Is there anywhere online that one can purchase recordings of these songs?<BR>
"Christian", what little I saw about it's mention here on the TML, sounds<BR>
incredible.<BR>
<BR>
Jesse<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Douglas E.<BR>
> Berry<BR>
> Sent: Monday, April 03, 2000 6:06 AM<BR>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> Subject: Re: Filk explosion! Dulinor went to Capital<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> At 03:36 PM 3/29/2000 PST, you wrote:<BR>
><BR>
> >Play "Dawson's Christian" for your players. And even though parts of it<BR>
> >aren't quite "right" for the TU, it'll *still* send shivers up their<BR>
> >spines.<BR>
><BR>
> Just hearing the name sends shivers up my spine..  I heard Leslie<BR>
> Fish sing<BR>
> this on the Cape's South Beach the night before a shuttle launch.  In the<BR>
> spirit of the night, sea and space chanties and stories were the theme.<BR>
><BR>
> Easily the third best filk experience of my life.  The second was hearing<BR>
> five hundred people singing "Ladyhawk" at NASFIC.  The best was the "Hope<BR>
> Eyrie" that closed out the Challenger Memorial Concert.<BR>
><BR>
> "So pity us poor spacers wherever we roam,<BR>
> For there's no guarantee we'll ever come home."<BR>
> --<BR>
><BR>
> Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
> http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2000 16:43:18 -0700<BR>
From: Jesse DeGraff <jdegraff@pacbell.net><BR>
Subject: RE: 2 vehicles from those fine people at Quiathat MFG<BR>
<BR>
> These arent FS designs, so you all can pick up your coffee cups again.<BR>
<BR>
<<snip designs>><BR>
<BR>
> Ian Whitchurch<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Ya' just GOTTA' love an intro like that!<BR>
<BR>
:)<BR>
Jesse<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2000 16:55:49 -0700<BR>
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: 2 vehicles from those fine people at Quiathat MFG<BR>
<BR>
Katharine Whitchurch wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> If you<BR>
> want to go the whole hog, a TL13 fusion plant will let it run virtually<BR>
> forever (albeit this cost KCr 300 in TL13 credits. If you are goanna do<BR>
> this, upgrade the life support to type III or even IV. Heck, redesign the<BR>
> whole thing. It's like putting a fission plant on a Studebaker).<BR>
<BR>
Now I thought you said something about this not being a FS post ;-)<BR>
<BR>
(Thoughts of a fission powered '57 Golden Hawk drifting in my<BR>
head...Damn! Now THAT would be a CAR! ;-)<BR>
<BR>
> This is a good speculative cargo for PCs heading out to the fringe, as they<BR>
> are reasonably value dense (even in Imperial Credits, it still should be<BR>
> worth KCr 10 per dton) and quite useful on the frontier. Note that as TL8<BR>
> construction, it should be able to be bought at a substantial discount to<BR>
> the list price, if the buyer will pay in hard Imperial credits.<BR>
<BR>
Batteries, especially higher TL units would be a very good cargo, too,<BR>
as those are drop-in performance enhancers.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Bruce Johnson<BR>
University of Arizona<BR>
College of Pharmacy<BR>
Information Technology Group<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2000 19:54:12 -0400<BR>
From: "Daniel Phelps" <phelpsd@gate.net><BR>
Subject: Re: OT: Organized Resistance <BR>
<BR>
Regards this D&D thread one comment and a very bad pun:<BR>
<BR>
Comment:<BR>
<BR>
Meanest bit of organized resistance I ever saw was run against a medium/low<BR>
level group.  Party rounds the corner and sees the dungeon patrol heading<BR>
straight for them.  Three trolls, but what made them flee in terror was the<BR>
fact that each troll had three rust monsters on leather leashs.<BR>
<BR>
Pun<BR>
<BR>
Guess the monster.   You can see clean through it as it charges.  You hear a<BR>
conga beat and a faint cry of ba-ba-lu.   As it closes you can smell a reek<BR>
cigar smoke and rum.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Scroll down for the answer<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
wait for it<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
here it comes<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
A Gelatinous Cuban<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 00:54:48 +0100<BR>
From: "Nick Bradbeer" <nickb@ndirect.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: _Scandalous_ class Modified Type S (FF&S2) [Long]<BR>
<BR>
>When someone mentioned that you can buy about 100 scout/couriers for the<BR>
price of one real warship, I decided that I just _had_ to post this:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Aaargh! You know, one day soon I'm going to have to arrange for orbital<BR>
bombardment of AuricTech's head office. It's enough to make an engineer cry.<BR>
<BR>
Nick<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2000 17:18:10 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: re:  The Landgrab - Cipatwe/RhylanorCipatwe/Rhylanor<BR>
<BR>
>From: "Kevin C. Carpenter" <teruiki@swbell.net><BR>
<BR>
>Since I was in the process of developing it already, and no one<BR>
<BR>
>else seems to have claimed it, I'll go ahead and grab it. Has <BR>
>there been anything terribly important written about it other <BR>
>than the enigmatic description given in BtC? <BR>
<BR>
A long time ago on someone posted a short piece to the TML that<BR>
mentioned going to a restaurant for Cipatwean food.  That<BR>
eventually led me to write and post a couple of very short<BR>
pieces about dining in Cipatwe.  One involves the nameless<BR>
merchant officer who always starts his stories with something<BR>
like "well, sophs," and the other was the First Sergeant of the<BR>
Szechuan Regiment ordering two volunteers to buy a lot of very<BR>
good food while their troop carrier did a quick turn on Cipatwe<BR>
during the Fifth Frontier War.  (I don't have copies of those<BR>
pieces, by the way, but they should be in the archives.)<BR>
<BR>
I would consider it a great honor if Cipatwe retains its<BR>
reputation as the gourmet ghetto of the Spinward Marches.  (This<BR>
is from someone who has until last month lived in Berkeley, from<BR>
whence the term gourmet ghetto comes.)<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.<BR>
http://im.yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2000 20:36:23 EDT<BR>
From: Qstor@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Starports<BR>
<BR>
Great book...Great cover art....As has been said it's useful for any version <BR>
of Traveller...<BR>
Has anyone seen the list on p.31? LOL <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Mike<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2000 20:39:46 EDT<BR>
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: D Neb<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 00-04-03 10:23:22 EDT, you write:<BR>
<BR>
<< Have any _Dark Nebula_ still in shrink-wrap?  >><BR>
<BR>
Not in Austin -- I might in the Illinois storage locker (1,100 miles from <BR>
here).<BR>
<BR>
LKW<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2000 20:40:12 EDT<BR>
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Tee En Ess<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 00-04-03 15:43:37 EDT, you write:<BR>
<BR>
<< The previous report was datelined "Sebasta/Solomani Rim", 119-1117, though<BR>
 the report is "received 120-1117"; it involved the secession of Kukulcan <BR>
 from the Solomani Confederation.<BR>
 <BR>
 The current report is datelined "Capital/Core", 120-1117, and reacts to <BR>
 the news of the secession of Kukulcan -- recieved "yesterday"!  <BR>
 <BR>
 Unless the Imperium has instant communication now, this is an Oops.  :) >><BR>
<BR>
That's what I get for writing these d*mned things in my sl**p . . .<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2000 20:40:00 EDT<BR>
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Combat Armor<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 00-04-03 10:23:22 EDT, you write:<BR>
<BR>
<< In all honesty, I REALLY wanted to get at least one suit of combat armor<BR>
 done for this years BayCon, with Doug's Jubilee Party, but I don't think<BR>
 it's gonna' happen.  More's the pity :(<BR>
  >><BR>
<BR>
I was _very_ close to talking the people who run Sci Fi Supply (or who ran it <BR>
- -- anybody know if they are sitll around?) into putting together a suit of <BR>
maroon BD just for grins. They built a couple of 25mm Space: 1889 ships just <BR>
for the pleasure of it.<BR>
<BR>
LKW<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2000 20:43:08 EDT<BR>
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: GDW & DGP<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 00-04-03 15:43:37 EDT, you write:<BR>
<BR>
<< >Didn't Loren say a few months back that they lost interest quite some time<BR>
 >before TNE?>><BR>
<BR>
Not exactly. What I said was that we didn't force them to stop doing <BR>
Traveller, they chose to stop.<BR>
<BR>
IM pretty well-informed O, TNE was a convenient excuse. They wanted do <BR>
something on their own (and not have to pay a royalty). <BR>
<BR>
<< My understanding was that they had offered to buy the "classic Traveller"<BR>
 concept, and keep it alive.    >><BR>
<BR>
I will not comment on the offer they made us on MegaT, except to say I <BR>
thought it was ludricrous.<BR>
<BR>
LKW<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2000 17:24:38 -0700<BR>
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)<BR>
Subject: Re: TNS Instantaneous Communication<BR>
<BR>
  Or Imperial secret services have been doing some social engineering, <BR>
and merely screwed up the "news" release date (lest the Rats actually<BR>
keep the lid on for a few inconvenient days...)  :><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>From: Steven Bonneville <bonnevil@ima.umn.edu><BR>
>Subject: TNS Instantaneous Communication<BR>
><BR>
>The latest TNS report is glitched.<BR>
><BR>
>The previous report was datelined "Sebasta/Solomani Rim", 119-1117, though<BR>
>the report is "received 120-1117"; it involved the secession of Kukulcan <BR>
>from the Solomani Confederation.<BR>
><BR>
>The current report is datelined "Capital/Core", 120-1117, and reacts to <BR>
>the news of the secession of Kukulcan -- recieved "yesterday"!  <BR>
><BR>
>Unless the Imperium has instant communication now, this is an Oops.  :)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2000 19:53:47 -0700<BR>
From: Jesse DeGraff <jdegraff@pacbell.net><BR>
Subject: RE: Combat Armor<BR>
<BR>
Never heard of them.  They on the web???<BR>
<BR>
As far as props from me, I've talked to Marc about becoming officially<BR>
licensed and everything :)  Should be fun if I can ever get the spare time!<BR>
<BR>
Jesse<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of<BR>
> GDWGAMES@aol.com<BR>
> Sent: Monday, April 03, 2000 5:40 PM<BR>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> Subject: Re: Combat Armor<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> In a message dated 00-04-03 10:23:22 EDT, you write:<BR>
><BR>
> << In all honesty, I REALLY wanted to get at least one suit of<BR>
> combat armor<BR>
>  done for this years BayCon, with Doug's Jubilee Party, but I don't think<BR>
>  it's gonna' happen.  More's the pity :(<BR>
>   >><BR>
><BR>
> I was _very_ close to talking the people who run Sci Fi Supply<BR>
> (or who ran it<BR>
> -- anybody know if they are sitll around?) into putting together<BR>
> a suit of<BR>
> maroon BD just for grins. They built a couple of 25mm Space: 1889<BR>
> ships just<BR>
> for the pleasure of it.<BR>
><BR>
> LKW<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2000 23:03:08 -0400<BR>
From: Glenn Grant <neo@total.net><BR>
Subject: Landgrab question<BR>
<BR>
Have been looking at BTC and the MT data for the Marches, hunting for a<BR>
planet to grab.  I don't have the actual MT Encyclopedia handy, just the<BR>
Spinward Marches Data.<BR>
<BR>
In the MT data, the Allegiance code "As", for "Aslan New Lords", means what<BR>
exactly? Since they are clearly within Imperial borders, and thus should<BR>
technically be allegiance code "Im", I presume these are worlds where there<BR>
are significant numbers of Ihatei squatters, yes?<BR>
<BR>
Best,<BR>
<BR>
 + GMG +<BR>
<BR>
               Glenn Grant  <neo@total.net><BR>
_Northern Suns: The New Anthology of Canadian Science Fiction_<BR>
          Edited by David Hartwell & Glenn Grant<BR>
  ++Now in trade paperback from Tor Books++<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2000 03:35:20 GMT<BR>
From: j_pete@bellsouth.net (Pete)<BR>
Subject: Re: Clyde<BR>
<BR>
On Sun, 2 Apr 2000 15:51:44 EDT, GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>In a message dated 00-04-02 00:49:17 EST, you write:<BR>
><BR>
><< Wasn't Clyde the name of one of the ghosts on Pacman??<BR>
>  >><BR>
><BR>
>Also the name of A-hab the Ay-rab's camel (in the words of the old song).<BR>
<BR>
Wasn't it also the name of the Orangutan in "Any Which Way But Loose"?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- - Jeff Peterson (j_pete@bellsouth.net)<BR>
"Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax and get <BR>
 used to the idea."                  - Robert A. Heinlein<BR>
Pete 0609 D258A85-3 S kk- hi++ as+ va++ dr++ so zh- vi+ da++ A833<BR>
NOG #74  AirStar Nova 700<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2000 20:37:11 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Notes on building Heya<BR>
<BR>
Actually, what you sat is only true for the small plot or family farmer.<BR>
Farm benefit from scale of efficiencies.  The large AgriBusinesses like<BR>
Cargill and ADM (Archer-Daniels-Midland) not only make huge profits, but<BR>
control so much of agricultural output that they can practically dictate<BR>
price.  Not many people are aware, but currently 5 multinational<BR>
AgriBusinesses control about 80% of the world's food supply.  They own the<BR>
fields, the equipment, the truck that take it to the mills they own, where<BR>
it's store in their silos, before being loaded onto their ship to take it to<BR>
market.<BR>
<BR>
More than anything else, these large corporation have been responsible for<BR>
decline of the family farm in the US.  An institution that really has not<BR>
bee either efficient or profitable in decades.  The family farm survives<BR>
only because of government subsidies, and plays no important role in modern<BR>
agriculture except as a bit of nostalgia.<BR>
<BR>
If current trends continue, large MegaCorps will dominate agriculture,<BR>
reaping (literally) huge profits.  Because citizens must eat, they will<BR>
either pay or starve.<BR>
<BR>
Forget about a trade war.  Think about a food war.<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"It takes a child to raze a village."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
> From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
> Reply-To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2000 16:30:44 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
> To: traveller mailing aa list <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
> Subject: RE: Notes on building Heya<BR>
> <BR>
>> From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net><BR>
> <BR>
> Historically and cross-culturally on earth, farming has always<BR>
> had very low profit margins.  Every society with a large<BR>
> agricultural component has had to grapple with issues of feeding<BR>
> the farmers.  Will it be different in the Far Future?  Why and<BR>
> why not?  Or under what circumstances will it be the same and<BR>
> different?<BR>
> <BR>
> --Glenn<BR>
> <BR>
> __________________________________________________<BR>
> Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
> Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.<BR>
> http://im.yahoo.com<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2243<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2244</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
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Traveller-digest       Tuesday, April 4 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2244<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Jonkereen (was Re: TML Landgrab) <BR>
RE: Notes on building Heya<BR>
Imperial Marine models? (was Re: Combat Armor)<BR>
Re: Notes on building Heya<BR>
Re: TNS<BR>
Re: Disparate TLs<BR>
Re: TL/Pixie<BR>
RE: Imperial Marine models? (was Re: Combat Armor)<BR>
Re: Loeul d'Dieu<BR>
Re: Dave Hyphen is channelling me<BR>
Re: Filk explosion! Dulinor went to Capital<BR>
Re: Filk explosion! Dulinor went to Capital<BR>
Re: Filk explosion! Dulinor went to Capital<BR>
Re: Hard Times (was re: Re: Stellar Data question)<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2000 20:51:28 -0700<BR>
From: "James W. Lindsay" <jlindsay@home.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Jonkereen (was Re: TML Landgrab) <BR>
<BR>
On Mon, 03 Apr 2000 18:27:49 -0400, Josh W. Spencer wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> FROM TRAVELLERS' DIGEST #19: Library Data of the Deneb Sector<BR>
<BR>
[snip]<BR>
<BR>
Thanks.  After flipping through the Regency Sourcebook on an unrelated<BR>
matter, I found a similar write-up on page 60.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
James W. Lindsay             Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada<BR>
Website: http://members.home.net/jlindsay          ICQ: #7521644<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
Prosecutors will be violated<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2000 21:33:11 -0700<BR>
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)<BR>
Subject: RE: Notes on building Heya<BR>
<BR>
>From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
>Subject: RE: Notes on building Heya<BR>
...<BR>
>Historically and cross-culturally on earth, farming has always<BR>
>had very low profit margins. <BR>
<BR>
  Broadly true for staple production, much less so for "luxury" products -<BR>
the market farmers of early modern Europe were very comfortable, thanks.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2000 22:04:51 -0700<BR>
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)<BR>
Subject: Imperial Marine models? (was Re: Combat Armor)<BR>
<BR>
>From: GDWGAMES@aol.com<BR>
>Subject: Re: Combat Armor<BR>
...<BR>
><< In all honesty, I REALLY wanted to get at least one suit of combat armor<BR>
> done for this years BayCon, with Doug's Jubilee Party, but I don't think<BR>
...<BR>
>I was _very_ close to talking the people who run Sci Fi Supply (or who ran it <BR>
>- -- anybody know if they are sitll around?) into putting together a suit of <BR>
>maroon BD just for grins. They built a couple of 25mm Space: 1889 ships just <BR>
>for the pleasure of it.<BR>
<BR>
  What might be a lot more practical for the rest of us would be for some<BR>
company like Armorcast < www.armorcast.com > to do a licensed Traveller<BR>
model - for example, an Imperial Marine in the relatively popular (just look<BR>
at a _Dragon_ [plastic-model company] catalog) 1:16th scale (~110mm) could<BR>
be really nice - using the illo on p. 6 of SMC as a basis:<BR>
  - the classic IM combat armoured infantryman, with a pose slightly<BR>
modifiable by making the limb mounts ball & socket - just epoxy the<BR>
parts (works pretty well with resin, drill & pin if paranoid) in place.<BR>
  - have one or two human heads available in addition to the armoured<BR>
helmet - their line of Battletech licensed products relies on customers<BR>
picking and choosing from a large array of weapons to fit hardpoints, so<BR>
this idea is well-supported by their methods.<BR>
  - allow a selection of weapons - gauss rifle, FGMP, penguins, other man-<BR>
portable weapons as indicated by "Ground Forces"? :)<BR>
  - other small items might be accessory add-on packs, as might be buying<BR>
a spare shoulder-arm or a grav-belt; Grenadier included all sorts of neat<BR>
little odds & ends with their old 25mm's - some people will pay to be<BR>
able to customize their toys.<BR>
<BR>
  And all of the production and distribution issues are already very <BR>
well handled by various companies.<BR>
<BR>
  Take a look at the large-scale or resin model market - people buy<BR>
anime-type stuff like Battlemechs or GW Titans at huge costs, and the<BR>
1:16 scale looks pretty popular when I go out shopping - there's so <BR>
much out there now to choose from that I've been seriously considering<BR>
kit-bashing something Travelleresque together in a non-rigid armour get-up.<BR>
 <BR>
  Would I buy such a kit? Hell yes.<BR>
<BR>
        Steven Hudson<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 08:03:08 +0200 (METDST)<BR>
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk><BR>
Subject: Re: Notes on building Heya<BR>
<BR>
Chris Seamans writes:<BR>
<BR>
>Hans Rancke-Madsen writes:<BR>
> <BR>
>>I'm perfectly ready to accept that one farmer can produce enough food to<BR>
>>feed 20 people at TL 7 [...]. The figures above works out at 1:6,000 at<BR>
>TL 5. That I'm not prepared to believe.<BR>
><BR>
>I checked. In the U.S., roughly 2-3 percent of the population of the United<BR>
>States are employed in agriculture and fisheries. However, that doesn't work<BR>
>out to 1:50, or 1:33 because the US exports vast quantities of food to the<BR>
>rest of the world. I haven't found any reliable figures on approximately how<BR>
>much. While 1:6,000 is beyond what I personally find reasonable, but I feel<BR>
>that 1:1,000 or so is within reason, which would still reap massive profits<BR>
>for Heya. This assumes good growing seasons and access to advanced seeds, as<BR>
>well as access to relatively high-tech farm machinery.<BR>
<BR>
But Heya is supposed to be a TL 5 society. I won't go into the question of<BR>
how many men a TL 15 farmer can support, but whatever it is (and while I<BR>
won't dismiss 1:1000 out of hand, I kind of doubt it) it doesn't apply to<BR>
Heya.<BR>
 <BR>
>>Only if you suggest that Industrial planets produce an unrealistically<BR>
>>large number of industrial goods.<BR>
><BR>
>Fair enough. However, is 1:100, or 1:1000 unrealistic, given that we've gone<BR>
>from about 1:2 to 1:50+ in about 40 years, or between 2 TLs?<BR>
<BR>
It entirely depends on what TLs we're talking about. For TLs above 7 we have<BR>
only conjecture (and game rules), but for TLs below that we can come up with<BR>
some pretty solid estimates. Of course, we can't predict what TL 5<BR>
techniques may be developed at higher TLs, but barring something wholly<BR>
new, we can get pretty close.<BR>
 <BR>
>The plant doesn't have to be useful. The arable land and the distribution<BR>
>network would be what's useful. If you have a planet with a relatively low<BR>
>population density and lots of arable land, whatever plants you can grow<BR>
>immediately become useful.<BR>
<BR>
If it's not something unique to Heya, it would apply to other worlds as<BR>
well. By introducing it in one place you make it an integral parrt of the<BR>
universe.<BR>
<BR>
>>In which case Heya would be a higher TL. Even though this isn't stated<BR>
>>explicitly anywhere, it is implicit in quite a lot of rules. For instance,<BR>
>>economic output is always based on the given TL of the planet. If Heya's<BR>
>>TL was effectively higher, its economic output would be based on that<BR>
>>higher TL, regardless of whether or not it could be maintained locally.<BR>
><BR>
>There are several different systems for economic output floating around out<BR>
>there.<BR>
<BR>
And they all base economic output on TL.<BR>
<BR>
>In real life there are societies that are TL1 or so, but have access to<BR>
>high-tech chemical fertilizers, excellent seeds and, in many cases, state<BR>
>of the art farm machinery. <BR>
<BR>
In that case I don't think they would qualify as TL 1 societies. But give me<BR>
a few examples.<BR>
<BR>
>Still, they are for all intents and purposes TL1 or so.<BR>
<BR>
How do you know that?<BR>
<BR>
>There are societies like this that would currently be considered TL5.<BR>
<BR>
By whom? According to which criteria?<BR>
 <BR>
>If the TL system is to be considered as strict as you seem to imply, then it<BR>
>ceases to be useful, not to mention the fact that it starts to feel<BR>
>extremely unrealistic.<BR>
<BR>
Actually, I'm considering the TL system as fairly loose. Instead of defining<BR>
TL as locally maintainable technology (which is fairly useless for most<BR>
purposes given the ability to import equipment), I take it as the level of<BR>
technology used by a major part of the population. In other words, what<BR>
kind of stuff can a visiting PC expect to run into? That seems far more<BR>
useful to me than the other version. Who cares if the locals buy their<BR>
laer rifles from a local factory or an import company? The interesting<BR>
thing is what they shoot at you with.<BR>
<BR>
>It ceases to be useful simply because it is no longer considered to be the<BR>
>arbitrary abstraction that it actually is.<BR>
<BR>
It actually is? You have an official, self-consistent explanation of just<BR>
what TL means? Could you please share it with the rest of us?<BR>
<BR>
>It's foolish to believe that tech level tells you anything more than the<BR>
>sorts of things which may typically be found on the world.<BR>
<BR>
And that's exactly what I think it tells us. So I expect the farmers of a<BR>
TL 5 world to use TL 5 techniques. Though if they were a minor section of<BR>
the population I wouldn't balk at TL 6 or even more.<BR>
<BR>
>It starts to feel unrealistic because it specifically disallows the selling<BR>
>of manufactured materials from high-tech worlds to low-tech worlds. <BR>
<BR>
No it doesn't. It just tells us that the majority of people on a TL 5 world<BR>
does not buy much stuff from high-tech worlds. Because if they did, it<BR>
would be a higher-tech world.<BR>
<BR>
>The major flaws in this logic are apparent when you realize that this means<BR>
>that industrialized worlds will have no exports, and hence can make no money<BR>
>in a system that is based on the trading of such materials.<BR>
<BR>
Sure they can. They can sell to other worlds with the same general TL.<BR>
<BR>
>>In any case, that still doesn't account for all the tertiary occupations.<BR>
> <BR>
>It depends on the amount of people who would be involved in these tertiary<BR>
>occupations.<BR>
<BR>
Yes, and I think a sizable part of the population would be involved in <BR>
tertiary occupations even if it is assumed that it has almost no none-food<BR>
primary and secondary occupations (which I think is a very iffy assumption,<BR>
but not impossible).<BR>
 <BR>
>>>This wouldn't necessarily go hand in hand with an increase in the tech<BR>
>>>level of the planet, for the obvious reason that this rating is somewhat<BR>
>>>abstract.<BR>
>><BR>
>>I disagree.<BR>
> <BR>
>What is it that you disagree with? Do you disagree that such a scenario<BR>
>wouldn't necessarily go hand in hand with an increse in TL; that the rating<BR>
>is abstract; or both?<BR>
<BR>
I think the best way to rationalize TL involves a very pragmatic<BR>
interpretation: TL indicates the technology in use locally. It doesn't<BR>
resolve all problems, but it resolves more than any other interpretation<BR>
I've seen.<BR>
<BR>
Ian Ferguson writes:<BR>
<BR>
>The real question is then "How much food can a TL 5 world with 70 million<BR>
>people produce?"<BR>
<BR>
And that does, of course, greatly depend on how well-rounded the society is.<BR>
You can certainly imagine a world where farming is the only 'industry', all<BR>
other consumer goods being imported from the worlds that they sell the food<BR>
to. But in that case I would expect said world to be the same TL as the<BR>
market worlds since all its technology would be built on those worlds. In<BR>
any case, such a society would still need the whole service sector. You<BR>
can't bottle a dozen appendectomies on Efate and send them to Heya; you<BR>
need a real live surgeon living on Heya for that. The same applies to<BR>
teachers, entertainers, administrators, police, firemen, etc.<BR>
 <BR>
>>>...it would not be a stretch to assume that a large portion of Heyans<BR>
>>>are farmers,<BR>
>><BR>
>>TL 5 is industrial technology. You need more than farmers to grow food. You<BR>
>>need the whole underpinning of their society. Industrial workers, educators,<BR>
>>administrators, entertainers... <BR>
> <BR>
>On the other hand, Heya is not an Industrial world.<BR>
<BR>
It's not an industrial world as Traveller defines it. That doesn't mean that<BR>
it doesn't have industry. There are hundreds of not Industrial worlds in the<BR>
TU where you can get a starship built. That sort of thing don't come without<BR>
plenty of mines and factories. <BR>
<BR>
Likewise Heya is not necessarily an agricutural world at all. It is an<BR>
Agricultural world, yes, but unless you insist that any world with such<BR>
and such a population and such and such government (I can't remember the<BR>
definitions off hand) MUST concentrate on growing food and that no world<BR>
lying outside those parameters are allowed to, this is only likely, not<BR>
a given.<BR>
<BR>
>There will be some local industry, but a lot of stuff is imported (from those<BR>
>hungry worlds nearby?).<BR>
<BR>
If it's imported from, say, Rethe and Roup, why isn't it TL 7 and 8?<BR>
<BR>
>Given that farms are very productive on Heya, and there is a huge and stable<BR>
>market for food, farming may be very popular indeed.<BR>
<BR>
True. OTOH, if Heya is unable to buy offworld equipment (something that the<BR>
TL suggests and one canonical reference supports), then maybe this is<BR>
evidence that Heya ISN'T producing anything for export? That despite<BR>
being an Agricultural world it isn't an agricultural world at all?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
      Hans Rancke<BR>
University of Copenhagen<BR>
     rancke@diku.dk<BR>
- ------------<BR>
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent<BR>
         events based on the individual situation."<BR>
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 08:11:03 +0200 (METDST)<BR>
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk><BR>
Subject: Re: TNS<BR>
<BR>
Loren writes:<BR>
<BR>
><< The previous report was datelined "Sebasta/Solomani Rim", 119-1117, though<BR>
>  the report is "received 120-1117"; it involved the secession of Kukulcan <BR>
>  from the Solomani Confederation.<BR>
>  <BR>
>  The current report is datelined "Capital/Core", 120-1117, and reacts to <BR>
>  the news of the secession of Kukulcan -- recieved "yesterday"!  <BR>
>  <BR>
>  Unless the Imperium has instant communication now, this is an Oops.  :) >><BR>
> <BR>
>That's what I get for writing these d*mned things in my sl**p . . .<BR>
 <BR>
Change the dateline to Scandia/Solomani Rim. That'll work just as well.<BR>
<BR>
However, I just noticed that the previous report is datelined "Scandia/<BR>
Solomani Rim, 119-1117" and starts with the words "Recieved 120-1117".<BR>
<BR>
Come again?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
      Hans Rancke<BR>
University of Copenhagen<BR>
     rancke@diku.dk<BR>
- ------------<BR>
"Look! Smoke signals! Can you read them, Chief?"<BR>
<BR>
"Of course. Ah... 'Puff, puff puff, puff; puff, puff puff, puff,<BR>
apostrophe puff, puff, puff puff, exclamation puff'.<BR>
<BR>
"What does it mean?"<BR>
<BR>
"'Help, my blanket's caught fire!'"<BR>
<BR>
                                --- _Round the Horne_ radio sketch<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 08:19:57 +0200 (METDST)<BR>
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk><BR>
Subject: Re: Disparate TLs<BR>
<BR>
Ian Ferguson writes:<BR>
<BR>
>It is hard to defend the disparity in TL between nearby worlds in the OTU.<BR>
<BR>
I disagree. I find it perfectly explainable. The problem is that the<BR>
usual argument to the contrary leaves out one crucial bit. It goes something<BR>
like this "Given the cost of transportation in the Imperium, any world that<BR>
is not interdicted can buy TL 15 equipment". And the crucial bit that is<BR>
left out? "...provided they produce something offworlders will pay a<BR>
reasonable price for".<BR>
<BR>
"Sure you can buy this state-of-the-art laser rifle. All it'll cost you is<BR>
a thousand Crimps."What will you pay me for a cartload of ragabatu roots?"<BR>
"One Crimp." "Never mind."<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
      Hans Rancke<BR>
University of Copenhagen<BR>
     rancke@diku.dk<BR>
- ------------<BR>
  "We're Space Marines! We're glorious we're steadfast, brave and true!<BR>
  So don't you dirtbags mess with us, or this is what we'll do!<BR>
	 <BR>
  We'll nick your dogs,we'll nuke your schools, we'll stretch you on a rack!<BR>
  We'll borrow all your garden tools and never give them back!<BR>
<BR>
  We are the bold marines of space, we wade through gore and grue.<BR>
  And if we do not like your face, then this is what we'll do:<BR>
<BR>
  We'll sneer ad spit and call you names, tip napalm down your shirt.<BR>
  Your vest will be consumed by flames, and that will really hurt!"	<BR>
	 <BR>
				--- "DR and Quinch get drafted" from 2000 AD<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 09:01:26 +0200 (METDST)<BR>
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk><BR>
Subject: Re: TL/Pixie<BR>
<BR>
Ian Ferguson writes:<BR>
<BR>
>Hans Rancke-Madsen writes:<BR>
><BR>
>>Ian Ferguson writes:<BR>
>>>Pixie is one of those worlds that gets Traveller GMs thinking up stories.<BR>
>><BR>
>>Which is a good thing if you can come up with something that works. I just<BR>
>>don't think that all random UWPs can be explained away.<BR>
><BR>
>It's all relative  ;)<BR>
<BR>
I (personal opinion) do not believe that all randomly generated UWPs can be<BR>
explained away once they are placed in a historical and sociological context<BR>
(like, for instance, the Imperium of the OTU).<BR>
 <BR>
>If you cannot find an explanation for Pixie (or any other world) that you<BR>
>can live with, just change the world, drop it, or use another TU.<BR>
<BR>
I do change it IMTU. On the TML I usually discuss the OTU. That's the default.<BR>
 <BR>
>Now, I agree that I need a logical explanation for Pixie having more than a<BR>
>typical proportion of jobs being done by robots. My thinking has been that<BR>
>the Imperial Navy set up their base there, and a few of the local miners set<BR>
>up a bar next door. Commercial traffic through the system increased, <BR>
<BR>
This is part of what I mean when I talk of placing UWPs in a specific<BR>
setting. There's no logical reason for any traffic to pass through Pixie.<BR>
Anything that comes from outside the Menorb mini-main is Jump-2 and can get<BR>
to Yres without passing through Pixie. Jump-1 traffic from Boughene to Yres<BR>
(assuming there is any) has a choice of going through Menorb or Pixie. If<BR>
there is any traffic from Boughene, it isn't very much; Boughene has a<BR>
population of 600,000. Any system in Uthe subsector is easier to get to<BR>
from some other system than Pixie.<BR>
<BR>
>>>Although technically a class A starport, only very small starships can be<BR>
>>>manufactured <BR>
>><BR>
>>Up to 600 T ships IIRC. Which according to the rules in TCS requires a<BR>
>>population of 600,000. Now, I could see a 'one-crop' world that earned<BR>
>>it's living by building starships making do with maybe one tenth of<BR>
>>that. And I could see a dedicated shipyard that was subsidized from<BR>
>>outside, ferrying in sub-components and assembling them get by with<BR>
>>maybe a tenth of that[*]. But 90 people? I don't believe it.<BR>
> <BR>
>I don't use the 600,000-person requirement, but I expect that it refers to<BR>
>having enough people to support such construction.<BR>
<BR>
And leave enough over to run any other part of a society, yes.<BR>
<BR>
>...How many people have to work on a 600-ton ship at one time? 10? 20? 40?<BR>
<BR>
Well, that depends on just what you're talking about. The people who punch<BR>
the clock at the General Shipyards Pixie Yard? Or those people plus their<BR>
families? Or those plus the people who make the rest of the local society?<BR>
<BR>
>Import the parts, hire a few contractors from off-planet, rent some stuff<BR>
>from the naval base, transfer some personel from other jobs, and take<BR>
>longer to built the ship than standard times.<BR>
<BR>
All of which makes ships from Pixie more expensive than ships from other,<BR>
more well-rounded worlds. So why build on Pixie at all, and who takes the<BR>
loss and why is he willing to do so? Until you've answered that, you haven't<BR>
really explained Pixie at all.<BR>
<BR>
>Pixie technically has a class A starport, but hardly ever is anything<BR>
>constructed there.<BR>
<BR>
What makes you say that?<BR>
 <BR>
>>[*] I just don't see why anyone would set one up on Pixie.<BR>
><BR>
>Initially, mostly just to cater to the naval base, now more commercial<BR>
>traffic is encouraging expansion.<BR>
<BR>
And where is that commercial traffic coming from and going to?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
      Hans Rancke<BR>
University of Copenhagen<BR>
     rancke@diku.dk<BR>
- ------------<BR>
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent<BR>
         events based on the individual situation."<BR>
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2000 23:58:42 -0700<BR>
From: Jesse DeGraff <jdegraff@pacbell.net><BR>
Subject: RE: Imperial Marine models? (was Re: Combat Armor)<BR>
<BR>
Then there's the company that makes 1/6th "Aliens" armor, weapons, and<BR>
accessories for 1:6 scale figures which are starting to really boom in<BR>
popularity.  Check out http://members.aol.com/M56SG/uscm.html to see what I<BR>
mean.<BR>
<BR>
Jesse<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Steven<BR>
> Hudson<BR>
> Sent: Monday, April 03, 2000 10:05 PM<BR>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> Subject: Imperial Marine models? (was Re: Combat Armor)<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> >From: GDWGAMES@aol.com<BR>
> >Subject: Re: Combat Armor<BR>
> ...<BR>
> ><< In all honesty, I REALLY wanted to get at least one suit of<BR>
> combat armor<BR>
> > done for this years BayCon, with Doug's Jubilee Party, but I don't think<BR>
> ...<BR>
> >I was _very_ close to talking the people who run Sci Fi Supply<BR>
> (or who ran it<BR>
> >- -- anybody know if they are sitll around?) into putting<BR>
> together a suit of<BR>
> >maroon BD just for grins. They built a couple of 25mm Space:<BR>
> 1889 ships just<BR>
> >for the pleasure of it.<BR>
><BR>
>   What might be a lot more practical for the rest of us would be for some<BR>
> company like Armorcast < www.armorcast.com > to do a licensed Traveller<BR>
> model - for example, an Imperial Marine in the relatively popular<BR>
> (just look<BR>
> at a _Dragon_ [plastic-model company] catalog) 1:16th scale (~110mm) could<BR>
> be really nice - using the illo on p. 6 of SMC as a basis:<BR>
>   - the classic IM combat armoured infantryman, with a pose slightly<BR>
> modifiable by making the limb mounts ball & socket - just epoxy the<BR>
> parts (works pretty well with resin, drill & pin if paranoid) in place.<BR>
>   - have one or two human heads available in addition to the armoured<BR>
> helmet - their line of Battletech licensed products relies on customers<BR>
> picking and choosing from a large array of weapons to fit hardpoints, so<BR>
> this idea is well-supported by their methods.<BR>
>   - allow a selection of weapons - gauss rifle, FGMP, penguins, other man-<BR>
> portable weapons as indicated by "Ground Forces"? :)<BR>
>   - other small items might be accessory add-on packs, as might be buying<BR>
> a spare shoulder-arm or a grav-belt; Grenadier included all sorts of neat<BR>
> little odds & ends with their old 25mm's - some people will pay to be<BR>
> able to customize their toys.<BR>
><BR>
>   And all of the production and distribution issues are already very<BR>
> well handled by various companies.<BR>
><BR>
>   Take a look at the large-scale or resin model market - people buy<BR>
> anime-type stuff like Battlemechs or GW Titans at huge costs, and the<BR>
> 1:16 scale looks pretty popular when I go out shopping - there's so<BR>
> much out there now to choose from that I've been seriously considering<BR>
> kit-bashing something Travelleresque together in a non-rigid<BR>
> armour get-up.<BR>
><BR>
>   Would I buy such a kit? Hell yes.<BR>
><BR>
>         Steven Hudson<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 09:51:48 +0200 (METDST)<BR>
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk><BR>
Subject: Re: Loeul d'Dieu<BR>
<BR>
Robert O'Connor writes:<BR>
<BR>
>Herewith part 2.<BR>
>Constructive criticism is more than welcome.<BR>
> - ------------------------------------------------<BR>
> <BR>
>* History<BR>
>1. Beginnings<BR>
>The system was claimed by a group of Francophile Terran Revivalists in 85. <BR>
<BR>
I'm not sure this qualifies as constructive, but this is far too early to<BR>
accord with canon.<BR>
<BR>
"Until about 300, Aramis sector was empty[1]. Scattered ships passed through,<BR>
but few stopped on their journeys beyond to the growing Regina subsector. In<BR>
310, the onslaught began." [The Traveller Adventure, p. 15]<BR>
<BR>
From the settlement maps on the same page it seems that L'ouel d'Dieu<BR>
(current spelling ;-) was settled and became part of the Imperium between<BR>
300 and 400.<BR>
<BR>
To atone for the non-constructiveness of the criticism above, I'll quote the<BR>
information about L'ouel d'Dieu in _The Traveler Adventure_ (p. 18):<BR>
<BR>
"L'ouel d'Dieu is a water world under the aegis of Sharurshid, a <BR>
megacorporation specializing in rare trade goods. Sharurshid obtains a<BR>
variety of exotic seafoods and other products from this world. There has<BR>
been much pressure to have the world opened up for settlement, but <BR>
Sharurshid, fearing damage to the local ecosystem, has resisted."<BR>
<BR>
>* Economy<BR>
>Population 523,000 (includes Naval personnel)<BR>
<BR>
What? The Naval personnel don't count as transients? >:-><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
      Hans Rancke<BR>
University of Copenhagen<BR>
     rancke@diku.dk<BR>
- ------------<BR>
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent<BR>
         events based on the individual situation."<BR>
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 11:42:46 +0200<BR>
From: Jens Rydholm <jenry023@student.liu.se><BR>
Subject: Re: Dave Hyphen is channelling me<BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry wrote:<BR>
> Wait until you see the Imperial Army uniform I'm going to have at BayCon.<BR>
<BR>
Please, take a picture or five and post on a webpage somewhere. Preferrably<BR>
with some kind of weapon (fake or real as you see fit) in your hands. Perhaps<BR>
with some kind of nice background...<BR>
<BR>
It would make a great visual aid...<BR>
<BR>
+--------------------------------------+---------------------------------------+<BR>
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+--------------------------------------+---------------------------------------+<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2000 22:23:28 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Filk explosion! Dulinor went to Capital<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> At 03:36 PM 3/29/2000 PST, you wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>>Play "Dawson's Christian" for your players. And even though parts of it<BR>
>>aren't quite "right" for the TU, it'll *still* send shivers up their<BR>
>>spines. <BR>
><BR>
> Just hearing the name sends shivers up my spine..  I heard Leslie Fish sing<BR>
> this on the Cape's South Beach the night before a shuttle launch.  In the<BR>
> spirit of the night, sea and space chanties and stories were the theme.<BR>
<BR>
I'd love to see the tale worked into a Traveller adventure. Maybe a<BR>
special "Halloween adventure". Do it right and work out a deal with the<BR>
author to include a CD single in the module...<BR>
<BR>
> Easily the third best filk experience of my life. <BR>
<BR>
I'm not sure how I'd rate the "best" ones of my life. Gwendolyn of Caer<BR>
Caerdinn(sp) singing her "True Thomas" songs after a dance class many,<BR>
*many* years back has to rank pretty high. So do a bunch of the songs<BR>
Louise Foster used to sing at those same impromptu filks. <sigh> "The<BR>
Queen of Air and Darkness" <sigh><BR>
<BR>
And the first time I heard "The Ballad of Rochemont" from the "Songs of<BR>
the Dorsai" tape sent shivers up my spine. You see, they arranged it<BR>
the way it's described in the story. Just one voice starts out, and<BR>
a few more join in, and more, and more...<BR>
<BR>
I'd love to see *that* story done as an "Outer Limits" (or some other<BR>
"anthology" type SF show) episode. <BR>
<BR>
> "So pity us poor spacers wherever we roam,<BR>
> For there's no guarantee we'll ever come home." <BR>
<BR>
And since both Poul Anderson *and* A. Bertram Chandler did the "beer<BR>
propelled spaceship" bit, Traveller *really* needs to do it. <BR>
<BR>
Anybody want to try for a Traveller version of "Banned From Argo"? <BR>
<BR>
"And we're banned from Argo, everyone...<BR>
 Banned from Argo just for having a little fun<BR>
 We spent a jolly shore leave there<BR>
 For just three days or four<BR>
 But Argo doesn't want us anymore"<BR>
<BR>
Hmmm. Now *there's* a nasty thought. Have the PCs land just a such an<BR>
infamous shore leave starts. For once *they* get to be on the<BR>
*receiving* end of the sorts of chaos they tend to inflict on ports...<BR>
<eg><BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2000 22:37:35 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Filk explosion! Dulinor went to Capital<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Is there anywhere online that one can purchase recordings of these songs?<BR>
> "Christian", what little I saw about it's mention here on the TML, sounds<BR>
> incredible.<BR>
<BR>
Firebird Arts and Music has a web page. So do several other vendors.<BR>
Alas, they may well be out of any tapes with Dawson's Christian on them.<BR>
<BR>
The market tends to be somewhat limited, with limited runs of tapes.<BR>
CDs only started showing up a few years back.<BR>
<BR>
My copy of "Dawson's Christian" is on the tape "Free Fall & Other<BR>
Delights" It's dated 1987, and was produced by Off Centaur<BR>
Publications, and as such *canted* be reprinted as that company<BR>
underwent an *ugly* breakup. Firebird has the remaining stock, but all<BR>
the masters were donated to a university with the understanding that<BR>
they not be used to make more tapes. <BR>
<BR>
Other folks have recorded it, I'm sure. And the author of Dawson's<BR>
Christian (Duane Elms) is popular enough that it *has* to be out there<BR>
somewhere. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2000 22:47:39 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Filk explosion! Dulinor went to Capital<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> as for serious filks, theres a new filk CD out called Shai Dorsai<BR>
> thats all dorsai songs, and the choral version of Jaques Chretien<BR>
> is just awesome.<BR>
<BR>
I still prefer the version from "Songs of the Dorsai"<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2000 23:21:44 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Hard Times (was re: Re: Stellar Data question)<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> At 10:21 -0400 3/4/00, Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
>> >Some *will* fail. Maybe even a *lot*. But between the "normal"<BR>
>> >occurence of accidents and stories out of the Long Night, I just don't<BR>
>> >see *most* planets, much less *all* of them being so stupid as to not<BR>
>> >take precautions.<BR>
><BR>
> Hmm. One thing about the survivability and laying in of stocks. It's <BR>
> human nature to skimp on the future to benefit today. I can't see <BR>
> that changing, unless the Vilani have a longer term look.<BR>
><BR>
> And as another observation - compared to most other ships of its day, <BR>
> the Titanic had significantly more lifeboat places as a proportion of <BR>
> the occupants. More than legally required. But not enough.<BR>
><BR>
> I find the collapse as shown in _Hard Times_ believable.<BR>
<BR>
In a later paragraph I note that the Long Night (and probably even<BR>
"Hard Times") fall *outside* the realm of what can be "reasonably"<BR>
expected. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2244<BR>
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Traveller-digest       Tuesday, April 4 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2245<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Tee En Ess<BR>
Re: Starports<BR>
Re: Stellar Data question..<BR>
Re: Notes on building Heya<BR>
Re: New Madrid Fault<BR>
Re: Cipatwe as 'Gourmet Ghetto'<BR>
Dolphins;  Resources Needed<BR>
Re: Evidence of a free Press in the Third Imperium <BR>
GURPS Traveller Ship Design Question<BR>
Re: Notes on building Heya<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2000 23:25:56 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Tee En Ess<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> In a message dated 00-04-03 15:43:37 EDT, you write:<BR>
><BR>
> << The previous report was datelined "Sebasta/Solomani Rim", 119-1117, though<BR>
>  the report is "received 120-1117"; it involved the secession of Kukulcan <BR>
>  from the Solomani Confederation.<BR>
>  <BR>
>  The current report is datelined "Capital/Core", 120-1117, and reacts to <BR>
>  the news of the secession of Kukulcan -- recieved "yesterday"!  <BR>
>  <BR>
>  Unless the Imperium has instant communication now, this is an Oops.  :) >><BR>
><BR>
> That's what I get for writing these d*mned things in my sl**p . . .<BR>
<BR>
What would help *everyone* is a program that knows about the x-boat<BR>
routes and can "roll" for travel times to/from the routes for worlds<BR>
not on them. Input a world and a date, and it can tell you when the<BR>
word of that "event" reaches any other world you specify.<BR>
<BR>
A graphical disply *showing* the news spreading as a wave on a map<BR>
would be neat, but isn't really necessary. <BR>
<BR>
A display that could handle *several* events spreading would be a pain<BR>
to write, but fun to watch.<BR>
<BR>
And the ultimate would be one with programmable "orders" that "start<BR>
events" of their own upone receiving certain types of news. <BR>
<BR>
Gee, look, that stock market crash over *there* lead to led to a<BR>
collapse, which led to a revolt over here, and when news hits *here*,<BR>
it'll start a war... :-)<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2000 23:24:01 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Starports<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> At 10:21 -0400 3/4/00, shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) wrote:<BR>
>> > We use Intergraph CAD (Microstation SE) at work, and I actually<BR>
>> > crashed it because the memory got eaten by it....<BR>
>><BR>
>>Too weird. One of my system is an "old" Intergraph TD-3 (90). I'm using<BR>
>>it for a server and it "only" has 148 meg in it (the SIMMs to bring it<BR>
>>to the max of 192 are on order)<BR>
><BR>
> It's the NT4 version - PII 233MHz w/64 Mb RAM then. May try it again <BR>
> now I'm upgraded to 128Mb.<BR>
<BR>
Mine has *only* a 90 MHz Pentium. But Netware Servers want *lots* of<BR>
RAM. On the other hand it's *worth* it.<BR>
<BR>
> I'm waiting for the MacOS version from their 'home use policy'. ;-)<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2000 03:26:43 -0800<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Stellar Data question..<BR>
<BR>
shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) wrote<BR>
<BR>
> In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> >> >>> For a world on a main in a high pop sector such a world might be only <BR>
> > a week from a number of sources of TL10 items.<BR>
<BR>
> >> >> Something goes wrong. *Assuming there's a ship available*, it'll take<BR>
> >> >> the ship a week to get to *any* other system.<BR>
> >> >> That's two weeks *minimum*. Any kind of problem means further delay.<BR>
<BR>
> >> > You seem to be assuming that parts have to be special ordered <BR>
> >> > which is not always the case. Let's say that our planet has <BR>
> >> > 500,000 people. These people live in 200,000 households. Each <BR>
> >> > of these households needs a TL 10 air circulation pump.<BR>
<BR>
> >> Why would the *households* need them? The setup is apt to be far closer<BR>
> >> to an overgrown apartment building/mall that to a bunch of indivudual<BR>
> >> "houses". <BR>
<BR>
> > Why do you assume that people would be willing to live in<BR>
> > high density housing when there is a whole planet out there<BR>
> > with only half a million people on it?<BR>
<BR>
> Keep in mind that a lot depends on how dwellings are constructed. Any<BR>
> world without a thin or beter atmosphere, or without a substantial<BR>
> magnetic field is just about going to *have* to build underground for<BR>
> protection from solar flares (yes, even Type M stars can have dangerous<BR>
> flares, though I'll readily admit that I have no idea regarding the<BR>
> relative frequency compared with G stars).<BR>
<BR>
Then the proper question is how cheap tunneling and adding <BR>
life support is. I'll use MT rules.<BR>
<BR>
In ship design for planetoid hulls Tunneling is Cr 75 per <BR>
kilo liter. At 13.5 tons per kilo liter this works out to Cr <BR>
1,012.5 per ton. We will call it Cr 1,000. If we give each <BR>
person 500 square feet of living area with 10 foot ceilings <BR>
this is 5,000 cubic feet per person, or about 10 displacement<BR>
tons or 135 kilo liters. Tunneling will cost Cr 10,000 per person. <BR>
We will then add in Basic Environment, Basic Life Support,<BR>
Extended Life Support for Cr 510 per kilo liter or Cr 68,850<BR>
per person. Our dwelling now costs Cr about 80,000 per person.<BR>
[about Cr 82,00 per person with one airlock per two inhabitants]<BR>
Clearly these costs are a bit high.<BR>
<BR>
> This means that it's a *hell* of a lot cheaper to dig out a common<BR>
> "warren" of tunnels, which give you access to everybody else even<BR>
> during flares than to dig a bunch of individual dwellings.<BR>
<BR>
No this only proves that each family dwelling would be<BR>
buried deeply. Why are the inhabitants going to pay money<BR>
for additional tunnel space?<BR>
<BR>
> > The frontier has served as a sociological relief valve for<BR>
> > people who need a lot of personal space. It still does <BR>
> > today here in Alaska.  A lot of lower population<BR>
> > Traveller worlds are going to have significant populations<BR>
> > who moved there because the land is Cr 0.1 a hectare and the<BR>
> > planetary government, even if it has a high law level, is<BR>
> > to far away to bother them.<BR>
<BR>
> But the environment is a lot harsher, and dwellings will have to be<BR>
> considerably more sophisticated. And the type of "sophistication" tends<BR>
> to favor shared services *far* more strongly than anything on Earth.<BR>
<BR>
> >> You don't reprocess air or water in individual dwellings, as that's<BR>
> >> *way* inefficient. Though households will likely have emergency air<BR>
> >> supplies. <BR>
<BR>
> > Inefficiency per unit may be preferable to high transport costs.<BR>
<BR>
> But that's the *point*, if you can use a "local tech" shared system,<BR>
> versus a high tech individualized system, the costs will *greatly*<BR>
> favor the "local tech" solution.<BR>
<BR>
I am talking about the on planet transport of the air, water,<BR>
sewage, etc between the dwellings. If each hose does these itself<BR>
then you do not need these pipes.<BR>
<BR>
> > Another strong argument _not_ to have a local water department<BR>
> > or a holding/processing tank but rather to have these things <BR>
> > done at the household level.<BR>
> <BR>
> Except that doing so will cost you a *lot* more than paying the city to<BR>
> do it. If nothing else, you'll have to spend time monitoring and<BR>
> maintaining your household system. And for something that *small*<BR>
> your "input" so "bursty" that a bio system just won't work. Not unless<BR>
> you plan to spend all your time trying to balance it. <BR>
<BR>
In the real world sure but not in CT, MT, or TNE. T4 established<BR>
rules in FF&S2 for more sophisticated recycling systems. <BR>
<BR>
In Gurps Traveller the Gurps Space rules state that, at GTL's 8-11<BR>
[roughly TTL 9-14] Total life support (everything including food) <BR>
costs $ 10,000 per person. As GURPS Tl's increase the life support<BR>
becomes more efficient so a minimum size (half a space, where<BR>
space = Traveller displacement ton) system can support more<BR>
people. This suggests, contra intuitively, that higher TL's<BR>
will live in tighter spaces as they can gain more from economies<BR>
of scale.<BR>
<BR>
> So? Communication <> telephone service. Also, phone service has been<BR>
> available by radio in a lot of places. (I happen to have an interest in<BR>
> telephone systems). Heck, there are places that still use the "operator<BR>
> radios the settelment radio operator" method, and have done so since<BR>
> before I was born. <BR>
> <BR>
> They've had radio for decades. At least in the small settlements. And a<BR>
> fair number of the folks who live by themselve have one too. <BR>
<BR>
As Will Hostman has pointed out in a separate post radio has<BR>
some problems in some places. Given that our planet purportedly<BR>
has high background radiation levels I don't know if it will<BR>
work well on our planet. Since our planet is too primitive<BR>
for meson comms and laser comms need line of sight, I would<BR>
suggest a maser comm up to a satellite and then back down to<BR>
the receiver. Given the high costs of this method I'm not<BR>
sure its practical on our planet.<BR>
 <BR>
> > Moreover what makes you think outside advice is of any use?<BR>
> <BR>
> > "You say your power plant is out and the manual says you need <BR>
> > to replace the XJ-42-170 fuse. Well replace it. What do you<BR>
> > mean you don't have a spare. Do you have any similar parts?<BR>
> > No, well do you have any manufacturing in town? No. Well then<BR>
> > I guess you'd better find another source of power as I can't help<BR>
> > you. CLICK"<BR>
> <BR>
> And a *real* engineer (as opposed to first level tech support) would<BR>
> tell them how to rig a replacement out of a chunk of wire of the right<BR>
> gauge.<BR>
<BR>
Who says there is a 'real' engineer available? Who says<BR>
that they have wire of the right gauge available?  We're talking <BR>
about a village/planet with less than 300 people almost all <BR>
of whom live in poverty, few of which have finished high school, <BR>
and a lot of whom have substance abuse problems. Oh sure they <BR>
have (in Gurps terms) Area Knowledge and Survival in the 15-20 <BR>
range but their Mechanic skill is specialized in Snow Machines,<BR>
not in power plants.<BR>
<BR>
> Also, many life support problems are more amenable to work arounds. <BR>
> The *many* stories of emergency medical procedures done by laymen being<BR>
> "talked thru it" over a radio or phone link show the difference a comm<BR>
> link can make when comm is faster than travel.<BR>
<BR>
The medical procedures you are talking about were done with<BR>
unskilled personnel and improvised tools but they do not<BR>
normally involve _creating_ parts. If you have a solid state<BR>
electronics or gravitics item the basic means of 'repairing'<BR>
it is going to be - replace the bad part. If you do not have<BR>
the right part you face a task as difficult as trying to build<BR>
an artificial heart with the tools in your basement. Having<BR>
someone who knows how to do it to talk you through it is not<BR>
going to help enough.<BR>
<BR>
> >> >> Assume you live in the Midwest. Say North Dakota. It's midwinter, the<BR>
> >> >> drifts are 10 feet high. And your town loses power. <BR>
> >> ><BR>
> >> > What do you need power for?<BR>
> >> <BR>
> >> I'm assuming a "typical" house/building. You need power or the damn<BR>
> >> *furnace* doesn't work!<BR>
> ><BR>
> > You don't need a generator to keep warm if you have fuel.<BR>
> > You can simply burn the heating oil directly out of the barrel<BR>
> > it comes in once you cut the top off.<BR>
<BR>
> But you don't *get* it in a barrel in the midwest (or around here). You<BR>
> have a *tank*, usually *buried*. With a fill pipe too small to be much<BR>
> use for extracting the fuel. <BR>
<BR>
Where I'm talking about it comes in barrels because that is<BR>
a convenient size for the barges (and if things get desperate,<BR>
the small planes) to carry. Given that our planet has a fairly<BR>
low population it is likely to be serviced primarily by free<BR>
traders. These traders will have a lot more in common with the<BR>
"ship the barrels on the barge" model used in the Alaskan bush<BR>
than with the "Truck comes around and refills your buried tank"<BR>
model you are apparently referring to.<BR>
<BR>
What's the TL of the siphon and why can't you use one on the<BR>
fuel pipe?<BR>
<BR>
> And you can't burn it without the furnace<BR>
> unless you *like* carbon monoxide poisoning (or have a fireplace that<BR>
> you can rig something in). <BR>
<BR>
> > Since houses on this planet have air recirculation systems capable<BR>
> > of dealing with the (more polluted and toxic) outside air<BR>
> > then they will not find interior air pollution to be much of<BR>
> > a problem.<BR>
> <BR>
> Tell that to the people who kill themselves via carbon monoxide<BR>
> poisoning every year...<BR>
<BR>
This planet = the planet we're discussing, not Earth. The<BR>
houses on this planet are going to be built to deal with<BR>
carbon monoxide poisoning.<BR>
 <BR>
> >> Yeah, but *we* don't build houses that way. And worse, most modern<BR>
> >> building have no provision to be heated by anything *but* the furnace<BR>
> >> (at least not *safely*). <BR>
> ><BR>
> > A Franklin stove is about TL 4. A "modern" wood stove is<BR>
> > probably TL 7. Single wood stoves can easily heat 10,000<BR>
> > cubic foot dwellings at 40 below. Costs of said stoves is<BR>
> > under $1,000. If this planet has wood (and some planets won't)<BR>
> > then the problem is easy to solve.<BR>
> <BR>
> Sure, but since they are only needed in emergencies, most houses don't<BR>
> *have* them.<BR>
<BR>
Who says they are only needed in emergencies. Wood stoves are<BR>
likely to be the cheapest form of heating (assuming abundant wood).<BR>
If the population is low and land is cheap then wood is likely to<BR>
be cheap or free, when you want it you simply cut it down.<BR>
<BR>
> >> I was using the *current* situation in most of the US as an analogy. If<BR>
> >> *we* lose power, we lose heat, which is why many people have<BR>
> >> generators of fireplaces. And those with neither get shifted into<BR>
> >> places that *can* be kept livable until the power comes back. At least<BR>
> >> for the few days it usually takes.<BR>
<BR>
Yes but this is a result of our building style. If everyone<BR>
lived underground, as you seem to be saying people on this<BR>
planet would, then the insulation provided by the soil would <BR>
likely make this unnecessary. If you're far enough underground <BR>
you will have an very stable year round temperature.<BR>
<BR>
> I think the big difference is that you haven't considered how most<BR>
> worlds that require life support are going to get settled. They'll<BR>
> start out with some sort of base. Which *will* use centralized<BR>
> facilities. And while other settlements may spring up later, that main<BR>
> one (and any others that start out a "bases" or "camps" rather than<BR>
> individual dwellings) will grow by expanding. Which incldes expanding<BR>
> or adding to the "centralized" facilities, simply because that will be<BR>
> both easier and *cheaper*. <BR>
<BR>
This logic is not supported by the Traveller rules. When using<BR>
World Builders Handbook to detail a planets population it makes<BR>
_no_ reference to the number and size of settlements being<BR>
affected by planetary climate. Therefore worlds in the Imperium <BR>
must not follow this logic or it would have been mentioned<BR>
in canon.<BR>
<BR>
> > If my houses air circulation fails in the middle of the night<BR>
> > on a planet with bad air I can/will be _dead_ in minutes. I<BR>
> > am going to have a smoke alarm type bad air detector in <BR>
> > every room and a filter mask or O2 tank for each person. <BR>
> <BR>
> And wouldn't you rather have it being handled by someone whose sole job<BR>
> is monitoring and repairing the air system?<BR>
<BR>
Of course not. If he screws up he looses his job, maybe not <BR>
even that if he has a strong union. If I screw up I die.<BR>
I have a much greater incentive to get it right.<BR>
<BR>
> >> Some *will* fail. Maybe even a *lot*. But between the "normal"<BR>
> >> occurence of accidents and stories out of the Long Night, I just don't<BR>
> >> see *most* planets, much less *all* of them being so stupid as to not<BR>
> >> take precautions. <BR>
<BR>
> > Hard Times and TNE canon clearly establish that this was <BR>
> > the case. By the TNE rules no air or bad air= no people for<BR>
> > locations in the wilds. The Long Night was 1,000+ years ago.<BR>
> > People tend not to worry much about problems that have not<BR>
> > occurred in that long.<BR>
> > If I were to tell you that your current home town is<BR>
> > woefully unsafe because it does not have a wall around it<BR>
> > to keep out sword wielding barbarians on horseback from<BR>
> > robbing, raping, and killing your family (not necessarily<BR>
> > in that order) I don't think it would concern you that much.<BR>
> > You would probably tell me that due to social and technological<BR>
> > changes that the scenario above was unlikely. This is _exactly_<BR>
> > what the average Imperial citizen circa 1116 would have told <BR>
> > you about the possibility of the return of the Long Night.<BR>
> <BR>
> Long Night scenarios *are* unlikely. <BR>
<BR>
Exactly, and that is why in TNE no air = no population.<BR>
<BR>
If the designers on TNE were trying to model a reality in which<BR>
some planets were prepared for this sort of risk they would<BR>
have included tables for randomly determining if airless planets<BR>
in the wilds still had life. They did not do so, therefore we<BR>
_know_ that no Wilds airless planets were prepared for this<BR>
problem. Only in pocket empires is their any chance of having <BR>
a population on a world with bad air. Pocket empires were<BR>
essentially made up by GDW or the Ref to provide star faring<BR>
settings to play in, if they were actually likely to exist their<BR>
would be randomly generated and not placed by referee's.<BR>
<BR>
> > Earlier in this century white people _forced_ natives<BR>
> > to abandon their sod based, sunken entry homes in favor of<BR>
> > houses (poorly) designed for the lower 48. Even today if a Native <BR>
> > family wanted to live in a traditional style house they would <BR>
> > risk having their children taken away from them.<BR>
> > A social worker would hear that this family had four <BR>
> > people living in a 400 square foot dwelling and would <BR>
> > recommend that the children be removed on the grounds that <BR>
> > the parents were not providing adequate housing <BR>
<BR>
> <sigh> Stupidity uber alles...<BR>
> *And* cultural imperialism.<BR>
<BR>
No kidding. The laws that are set up to preserve native tribes<BR>
would ensure that the child went to another native family, <BR>
but that would probably be small comfort to many parents.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2000 03:40:09 -0800<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Notes on building Heya<BR>
<BR>
Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk> wrote<BR>
<BR>
> Chris Seamans writes:<BR>
<BR>
> >If the TL system is to be considered as strict as you seem to imply, then it<BR>
> >ceases to be useful, not to mention the fact that it starts to feel<BR>
> >extremely unrealistic.<BR>
> <BR>
> Actually, I'm considering the TL system as fairly loose. Instead of defining<BR>
> TL as locally maintainable technology (which is fairly useless for most<BR>
> purposes given the ability to import equipment), I take it as the level of<BR>
> technology used by a major part of the population. In other words, what<BR>
> kind of stuff can a visiting PC expect to run into? That seems far more<BR>
> useful to me than the other version. Who cares if the locals buy their<BR>
> laer rifles from a local factory or an import company? The interesting<BR>
> thing is what they shoot at you with.<BR>
<BR>
I would tend to agree if all you are doing with the planet<BR>
is having an adventure on it. However if you are trying to<BR>
_explain_ the planet it does make a big difference.<BR>
<BR>
> >It ceases to be useful simply because it is no longer considered to be the<BR>
> >arbitrary abstraction that it actually is.<BR>
<BR>
> It actually is? You have an official, self-consistent explanation of just<BR>
> what TL means? Could you please share it with the rest of us?<BR>
<BR>
I don't know what Chris's explanation is, here's the<BR>
_official_ explanation from MT, and no it's not 100% consistent.<BR>
<BR>
"Technological Level: The degree of technological expertise, <BR>
and thus the capabilities of local industry depends greatly <BR>
on the basic characteristics of a world....<BR>
The Tech Level of a world determines the type, quality, and<BR>
sophistication of the products commonly available on a world<BR>
in urban areas or near the starport. Large areas of the <BR>
world away from the starport or away from large population<BR>
centers may be one or even two Tech Levels lower.<BR>
Local citizenry will not usually be armed with weapons of a <BR>
type which cannot be produced locally, but law enforcers or<BR>
military may be.<BR>
Tech level also indicates the general ability of local<BR>
technology to repair or maintain items which have failed<BR>
or malfunctioned." MT Ref Manual p 21.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 04:54:57 -0700<BR>
From: "Jesse LaBranche" <Vanquer@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re: New Madrid Fault<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Monday, April 03, 2000 10:19 AM<BR>
Subject: Re: New Madrid Fault<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> My understanding is that New Madrid is a failed rift zone.  Unlike<BR>
> strike slip faults, earth quakes aren't as predictable.  It<BR>
> could have another one tomorrow, or it could never have another<BR>
> one.<BR>
<BR>
    Doing a search on Yahoo for "New Madrid Fault" will give you a<BR>
website from researchers working on it right now.  Sorry, forgot the<BR>
URL, but it says that there is a 90% chance of a "big one" by 2040.<BR>
<BR>
> Also, the rock in the east transmit shock waves more efficiently,<BR>
> that means that damage due to an earthquake is more widespread.<BR>
> (I had heard the the last on had rung church bells in Boston,<BR>
> not Pitt.,  but I don't remember my source and it could<BR>
> have been inaccurate).<BR>
<BR>
    Kind of the other way around.  There is extremely hard ground on<BR>
the west of the Fault.  East and north, the ground is soft allowing the<BR>
quake to have more effect.<BR>
    The fault was harder to find and study because it is much deeper<BR>
than most others of its ilk.  Reports of how far bells ring vary, but most<BR>
claim somewhere on the New England searboard, with one saying<BR>
as far as Canada.<BR>
    The quake was not just one.  From Dec. 1911 to Mar. 1912 there<BR>
were at least 3 quakes that busted an 8 on the scale.  Aftershocks<BR>
and tremors were continuous throughout that time period.<BR>
    These quakes also had chimneys and buildings collapsing as far<BR>
as Pittsburgh.  All of the information that I just gave came directly from<BR>
said research website and is typed here from memory.<BR>
<BR>
Later.<BR>
<BR>
Jesse.<BR>
vanquer@email.msn.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2000 07:34:33 -0500<BR>
From: "Kevin C. Carpenter" <teruiki@swbell.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Cipatwe as 'Gourmet Ghetto'<BR>
<BR>
> A long time ago on someone posted a short piece to the TML that<BR>
> mentioned going to a restaurant for Cipatwean food.  That<BR>
> eventually led me to write and post a couple of very short<BR>
> pieces about dining in Cipatwe.  One involves the nameless<BR>
> merchant officer who always starts his stories with something<BR>
> like "well, sophs," and the other was the First Sergeant of the<BR>
> Szechuan Regiment ordering two volunteers to buy a lot of very<BR>
> good food while their troop carrier did a quick turn on Cipatwe<BR>
> during the Fifth Frontier War.  (I don't have copies of those<BR>
> pieces, by the way, but they should be in the archives.)<BR>
><BR>
> I would consider it a great honor if Cipatwe retains its<BR>
> reputation as the gourmet ghetto of the Spinward Marches.  (This<BR>
> is from someone who has until last month lived in Berkeley, from<BR>
> whence the term gourmet ghetto comes.)<BR>
><BR>
> - --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
Hmm - that's certainly an interesting take on it, and a much more pleasant<BR>
one than I was leaning towards.<BR>
<BR>
 At least in BtC, Cipatwe is a (GURPS) TL 6 world with a Control Rating of<BR>
5 - almost as repressive as you can get - and is based on hydroponics and<BR>
fish farming with a large dolphin population, who don't get along with the<BR>
humans living in the large arcologies. Since government is listed as a<BR>
bureaucracy, the image I've had was of a rather bleak Ag world being run<BR>
into the ground by an inefficient and corrupt band of bureaucrats - with of<BR>
course something else going on behind the scenes to explain the<BR>
human-dolphin relation problems, which is what my focus was going to be on.<BR>
Perhaps sometime in the past Cipatwe was a more cultural, open place than it<BR>
is now, and something has happened to change that.<BR>
<BR>
That's my take on things, at least. Thanks for the info, though - I'll go<BR>
see if I can find it.<BR>
<BR>
- - Kevin<BR>
kccarpenter@swbell.net<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2000 07:26:37 -0600<BR>
From: "Eric T. Holmes" <eholmes@lanl.gov><BR>
Subject: Dolphins;  Resources Needed<BR>
<BR>
Fellow TMLers and LandGrab Authors:<BR>
<BR>
I finally pickeed up Behind the Claw at my FLGS.  I noticed<BR>
there is a one line entry under Equus SM2417 that mentions<BR>
"Dolphins."  I have the JTAS article that has developed them.<BR>
<BR>
Are there any other reference materials for these creatures?<BR>
<BR>
I really haven't paid much attention to the TML thread and have already<BR>
round filed past TML files.<BR>
<BR>
Thanks<BR>
<BR>
Eric<BR>
<BR>
 <BR>
Eric<BR>
<BR>
eholmes@lanl.gov 			holmberg@thuntek.net <BR>
7am to 4pm Mountain Time 	6pm to Midnight Mountain Time<BR>
<BR>
IMTU: he+, tc+, tm, tne, t4, tg, tt, to, ru, ge, 3i+, c+, jt, au, st, ls+,<BR>
pi+, ta+, <BR>
		as+, va+, dr+, _sa_, kk--, hi--, so++, zh, vi, da, sy, _hu_ <BR>
			(sa = other sapients, hu = other humani)<BR>
<BR>
Lacedaemon, we have done our duty.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2000 13:27:30 +0100<BR>
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Evidence of a free Press in the Third Imperium <BR>
<BR>
Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com> wrote:<BR>
>>From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
><BR>
>>Have you ever wondered who _owns_ TNS anyway?<BR>
><BR>
>I've always assumed that it was wholly owned by the Travellers'<BR>
>Aid Society ("The Traveller News Service is an Imperium-wide<BR>
>benefit of membership in the Travellers' Aid Society").  Who<BR>
>owns TAS?  Being unaware of any dispositive canon on this point,<BR>
>I say that in my Traveller universe its members do.  The<BR>
>membership of the TAS is probably generally loyal to the<BR>
>Imperium, conservative even, so TNS probably follows the<BR>
>Imperial government's line.<BR>
<BR>
In the TML tradition of extrapolating a universe from a single data<BR>
point...<BR>
<BR>
I recall that char gen ensures that its membership is a combination<BR>
of the wealthy (1 MCr in loose change) and retired high ranking<BR>
naval officers (O4+?)<BR>
<BR>
From this I'd deduce that the board of governors or trustees would<BR>
be a collection of Nobles* and retired Grand Admirals.<BR>
<BR>
This could be a very independent minded board that would make<BR>
the TNS look like a very free institution. However, in a war,<BR>
their first thoughts wouldn't be "we're going to publish the<BR>
locations and battle plans of all the navy's ships because it<BR>
proves we are independent."**<BR>
<BR>
Sort of like the board of governors of the BBC<BR>
<BR>
;-)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
[* Being rich without a title in the Imperium suggests that the<BR>
   key qualities of reliability and responsibility haven't yet<BR>
   been recognised in you. Such a person might do the accounts<BR>
   or act as a managing director (hmmm, "TAS Director General"<BR>
   sounds good) but would have to report to a board of more<BR>
   "suitable" people. That way the board has someone to sack<BR>
   when some TNS report annoys the Emperor too much.]<BR>
<BR>
[** That's not a reference to American freedom of speech, but<BR>
    actually to the correspondent for The Times*** during the<BR>
    Crimean War.]<BR>
<BR>
[*** That's The London Times]<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Phil Kitching<BR>
- --<BR>
  http://www.btinternet.com/~salvo/<BR>
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.<BR>
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 09:04:59 CST6CDT<BR>
From: igor@truserve.com<BR>
Subject: GURPS Traveller Ship Design Question<BR>
<BR>
I've got a GT ship design question...<BR>
<BR>
What modules, if any, are allowed to be 1/2 size?<BR>
<BR>
In my particular case, is it permissible to have .5 of a maneuver module? Or do <BR>
I need to create a special "micro-maneuver" module using vehicles?<BR>
<BR>
I've got a ship that has .5 space left, and could use the extra 20 tons of <BR>
thrust (being a TL10 ship)...<BR>
<BR>
Thanks...<BR>
<BR>
Andy<BR>
<BR>
________________________________________________________<BR>
True Communications Corporation Your Premier ISP.<BR>
"Hometown Service with Worldwide Connectivity"<BR>
http://www.truserve.com        info@truserve.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2000 10:09:42 -0400<BR>
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca><BR>
Subject: Re: Notes on building Heya<BR>
<BR>
Hans Rancke-Madsen writes:<BR>
<snipped><BR>
>>The plant doesn't have to be useful. The arable land and the distribution<BR>
>>network would be what's useful. If you have a planet with a relatively low<BR>
>>population density and lots of arable land, whatever plants you can grow<BR>
>>immediately become useful.<BR>
>If it's not something unique to Heya, it would apply to other worlds as<BR>
>well. By introducing it in one place you make it an integral parrt of the<BR>
>universe.<BR>
<BR>
	Of course, there may be no problem with making it an integral part<BR>
	of the universe  :)<BR>
<BR>
	It is still easy to come up with reasons that Heya is particularly<BR>
	productive (there is no reason to believe that farming on Terra is<BR>
	the most productive in the universe).<BR>
<BR>
<snipped><BR>
>Actually, I'm considering the TL system as fairly loose. Instead of defining<BR>
>TL as locally maintainable technology (which is fairly useless for most<BR>
>purposes given the ability to import equipment), I take it as the level of<BR>
>technology used by a major part of the population. In other words, what<BR>
>kind of stuff can a visiting PC expect to run into? That seems far more<BR>
>useful to me than the other version. Who cares if the locals buy their<BR>
>laer rifles from a local factory or an import company? The interesting<BR>
>thing is what they shoot at you with.<BR>
<BR>
	I agree.<BR>
<BR>
<snipped><BR>
>>The real question is then "How much food can a TL 5 world with 70 million<BR>
>>people produce?"<BR>
>And that does, of course, greatly depend on how well-rounded the society is.<BR>
>You can certainly imagine a world where farming is the only 'industry', all<BR>
>other consumer goods being imported from the worlds that they sell the food<BR>
>to. But in that case I would expect said world to be the same TL as the<BR>
>market worlds since all its technology would be built on those worlds. In<BR>
>any case, such a society would still need the whole service sector. You<BR>
>can't bottle a dozen appendectomies on Efate and send them to Heya; you<BR>
>need a real live surgeon living on Heya for that. The same applies to<BR>
>teachers, entertainers, administrators, police, firemen, etc.<BR>
 <BR>
	The only bit that I don't necessarily agree with is that imported<BR>
	tech from nearby high-tech worlds must be high-tech.<BR>
<BR>
>>>TL 5 is industrial technology. You need more than farmers to grow food. You<BR>
>>>need the whole underpinning of their society. Industrial workers,<BR>
educators,<BR>
>>>administrators, entertainers... <BR>
>>On the other hand, Heya is not an Industrial world.<BR>
>It's not an industrial world as Traveller defines it. That doesn't mean that<BR>
>it doesn't have industry. There are hundreds of not Industrial worlds in the<BR>
>TU where you can get a starship built. That sort of thing don't come without<BR>
>plenty of mines and factories. <BR>
<BR>
	I agree that there will be some industry on Heya.  As I posted earlier,<BR>
	I would expect limited local industry with a fair bit of TL 5 stuff<BR>
	(and a very limited amount of higher-tech stuff) imported from offworld.<BR>
	This does not require any mining on Heya, though there might be some.<BR>
	This concept of Heya posits that the demand for food is so high that<BR>
	farming is sufficiently profitable to make it preferable to most<BR>
	other local industries.<BR>
<BR>
	As an aside: I tend to view "Non-industrial" worlds as importing a<BR>
	significant quantity of manufactured goods, especially heavier stuff<BR>
	like vehicles, reactors, etc., while "Industrial" worlds tend to<BR>
	export large quantities of same.  Of course, Ni worlds have may have<BR>
	some industry (mostly light), and unclassified (with regard to<BR>
	industry) worlds would have more.  I therefore charge hapless PCs<BR>
	more for most equipment on Ni worlds (and more for food on Na worlds).<BR>
<BR>
>Likewise Heya is not necessarily an agricutural world at all. It is an<BR>
>Agricultural world, yes, but unless you insist that any world with such<BR>
>and such a population and such and such government (I can't remember the<BR>
>definitions off hand) MUST concentrate on growing food and that no world<BR>
>lying outside those parameters are allowed to, this is only likely, not<BR>
>a given.<BR>
<BR>
	Of course, but the trade rules (at least in LBB 2?) certainly imply<BR>
	that food is particularly plentiful on "Agricultural" worlds.  In<BR>
	any event, it is reasonable to assume that an "Agricultural" world<BR>
	near two hi-pop Na worlds can make a lot of credits from producing<BR>
	food.<BR>
<BR>
>>There will be some local industry, but a lot of stuff is imported (from<BR>
those<BR>
>>hungry worlds nearby?).<BR>
>If it's imported from, say, Rethe and Roup, why isn't it TL 7 and 8?<BR>
<BR>
	A lot of stuff that is used at TL 7-8 may be no more than TL 5 (pots,<BR>
	pans, plates, bowls, cutlery, clothing, tiles, bricks, finished wood,<BR>
	steel, copper, binoculars, furnature, beer, wine, clothes hangers,<BR>
	art, books, ink, sewing needles, soap, shovels, hammers, candles, <BR>
	etc., etc.).  Sure, many of these things can be distinctively TL 7-8<BR>
	(synthetic jackets, plastic shoes, teflon pans), but a lot will be<BR>
	simple TL 5 products (leather boots, steel spoons, paper books),<BR>
	even if they are constructed at TL 7-8.  Other things can be built<BR>
	specifically for export to a TL 5 world where TL 7-8 support is not<BR>
	available (steam engines, wagons, steel ships, copper pipes, etc.).<BR>
	Just because such items were constructed at a higher TL would not<BR>
	IMHO change the TL of Heya.<BR>
<BR>
	BTW, isn't Roup TL 6?<BR>
<BR>
>>Given that farms are very productive on Heya, and there is a huge and stable<BR>
>>market for food, farming may be very popular indeed.<BR>
>True. OTOH, if Heya is unable to buy offworld equipment (something that the<BR>
>TL suggests and one canonical reference supports), then maybe this is<BR>
>evidence that Heya ISN'T producing anything for export? That despite<BR>
>being an Agricultural world it isn't an agricultural world at all?<BR>
<BR>
	This is a good point, and it illustrates the problem I have with <BR>
	justifying divergent TLs in the TU.  On the other hand, the explanation<BR>
	above is sufficient to keep my incredulity down to the same level as<BR>
	that which I feel regarding certain other topics  :)<BR>
<BR>
Peez<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2245<BR>
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Traveller-digest       Tuesday, April 4 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2246<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
RE: Notes on building Heya<BR>
Re: Disparate TLs<BR>
Life on the Edge<BR>
Re: Dolphins, Resources Needed<BR>
How the Universe Died?<BR>
RE: Imperial Marine models? (was Re: Combat Armor)<BR>
Re: Stories in the printed copy of New Scientist which relate  toTraveller<BR>
Re: GURPS Traveller Ship Design Question<BR>
Re: _Scandalous_ class Modified Type S (FF&S2)<BR>
Re: Imperial Marine models? (was Re: Combat Armor)<BR>
Re: Dave Hyphen is channelling me<BR>
RE: Filk explosion! Dulinor went to Capital<BR>
Re: Filk explosion! Dulinor went to Capital<BR>
Re: Filk explosion! Dulinor went to Capital<BR>
Re: Landgrab question<BR>
Landgrab: Second Claim<BR>
Re: Tee En Ess<BR>
Re: Disparate TLs<BR>
Re: Tee En Ess<BR>
Re: Filk explosion! Dulinor went to Capital<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 10:19:09 -0400<BR>
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net><BR>
Subject: RE: Notes on building Heya<BR>
<BR>
Hans Rancke-Madsen writes:<BR>
>>The plant doesn't have to be useful. The arable land and the distribution<BR>
>>network would be what's useful. If you have a planet with a relatively low<BR>
>>population density and lots of arable land, whatever plants you can grow<BR>
>>immediately become useful.<BR>
><BR>
>If it's not something unique to Heya, it would apply to other worlds as<BR>
>well. By introducing it in one place you make it an integral parrt of the<BR>
>universe.<BR>
<BR>
Yes, introducing "it" on Heya makes it an integral part of the universe. So<BR>
what? Rice can be grown in many places. In some real world countries it can<BR>
be grown year round, in others it can't be. If Heya has a good deal of<BR>
arable land and favorable growing conditions, then this factor is already<BR>
"an integral part of the universe". It's surely an integral part of the real<BR>
world. There's no need to introduce a "magic plant" that only Heya can grow,<BR>
unless you want to impart a fantasy flavor on your game world. I don't<BR>
begrudge people of that, but it's hardly necessary.<BR>
<BR>
>>In real life there are societies that are TL1 or so, but have access to<BR>
>>high-tech chemical fertilizers, excellent seeds and, in many cases, state<BR>
>>of the art farm machinery.<BR>
><BR>
>In that case I don't think they would qualify as TL 1 societies. But give<BR>
me<BR>
>a few examples.<BR>
<BR>
Torajaland and the surrounding areas (at least as of the early 90s), right<BR>
off the top of my head. Many "Third-World" communities buy or lease their<BR>
farming equipment, all the while living in houses, building ricebarns, and<BR>
so on at TL1.<BR>
<BR>
>>Still, they are for all intents and purposes TL1 or so.<BR>
><BR>
>How do you know that?<BR>
<BR>
The mystic messages sent into my brain from the pulsating, insane mass at<BR>
the center of the universe. Alternately, it could be said that I came to<BR>
know this the same fashion that you were able to give a real-world era for<BR>
TL5. I think you said that it was pre-world War II, if I remember correctly.<BR>
Traveller materials give examples of what might be found at various levels<BR>
of technology.<BR>
<BR>
>>There are societies like this that would currently be considered TL5.<BR>
><BR>
>By whom? According to which criteria?<BR>
<BR>
Why, by your criteria, of course. You were the one who introduced what TL5<BR>
meant, as I pointed out above. I was thinking in this case of South American<BR>
farming communities.<BR>
<BR>
>Actually, I'm considering the TL system as fairly loose. Instead of<BR>
defining<BR>
>TL as locally maintainable technology (which is fairly useless for most<BR>
>purposes given the ability to import equipment), I take it as the level of<BR>
>technology used by a major part of the population. In other words, what<BR>
>kind of stuff can a visiting PC expect to run into?<BR>
<BR>
That depends, of course, on the GM, or the person detailing the world.<BR>
Surely you don't think that one arbitrary number can detail this<BR>
sufficiently, do you?<BR>
<BR>
>That seems far more useful to me than the other version. Who cares if the<BR>
locals buy their<BR>
>laer rifles from a local factory or an import company? The interesting<BR>
thing is what they<BR>
>shoot at you with.<BR>
<BR>
Classic Traveller made the claim that it represents the capabilities of<BR>
local industry, and mentions high-tech imports in passing, pointing out that<BR>
they may be imported as specific needs arise.<BR>
<BR>
>>It ceases to be useful simply because it is no longer considered to be the<BR>
>>arbitrary abstraction that it actually is.<BR>
><BR>
>It actually is? You have an official, self-consistent explanation of just<BR>
>what TL means? Could you please share it with the rest of us?<BR>
<BR>
Before I go on, I'd like to take a moment to mention that I would greatly<BR>
appreciate it if you would learn to handle yourself in a friendly<BR>
discussion. Keep up your condescending tone, and I will put you into my<BR>
killfile. Your attitude is completely uncalled for.<BR>
<BR>
With that being said, no, I don't have a self-consistent explanation of just<BR>
what TL means, because I haven't felt the need to generate one. The<BR>
"official" explanations seem to just muddy the water even more and are often<BR>
contradictory.<BR>
<BR>
A TL rating is a game mechanic. It is an arbitrary number that serves as a<BR>
"stand in" for the development of the world. It's an attempt to view the<BR>
technological development of the earth in a linear fashion and then map that<BR>
same development on to other planets. It is, out of necessity, arbitrary,<BR>
and there are many gaps and holes. As a game mechanic, it is abstract. It is<BR>
removed from concrete reality to a large extent because it's difficult to<BR>
map the technological progress of the earth by way of a single digit. This<BR>
seems rather obvious when you consider the fact that here in the real world,<BR>
portions of a society may use technology that is significantly more advanced<BR>
than that use by other portions of a society.<BR>
<BR>
>>It's foolish to believe that tech level tells you anything more than the<BR>
>>sorts of things which may typically be found on the world.<BR>
><BR>
>And that's exactly what I think it tells us. So I expect the farmers of a<BR>
>TL 5 world to use TL 5 techniques. Though if they were a minor section of<BR>
>the population I wouldn't balk at TL 6 or even more.<BR>
<BR>
The adventurers may typically find TL5 goods on the world. Heavy trucks and<BR>
freight trains produced locally (or produced on other worlds for TL5<BR>
markets). A character shopping on Heya for weapons is more likely to run<BR>
across a revolver than a plasma rifle. Once you head out to the farms,<BR>
however, you start finding high-tech seeds that increase yields (as easy to<BR>
import as low-tech seeds, incidentally), pesticides developed by TL15<BR>
universities (just as easy to import as low-tech pesticides, incidentally)<BR>
and chemical fertilizers that were designed and tested forty years ago on a<BR>
TL13 (just as easy... yada yada yada).<BR>
<BR>
>>It starts to feel unrealistic because it specifically disallows the<BR>
selling<BR>
>>of manufactured materials from high-tech worlds to low-tech worlds.<BR>
><BR>
>No it doesn't. It just tells us that the majority of people on a TL 5 world<BR>
>does not buy much stuff from high-tech worlds. Because if they did, it<BR>
>would be a higher-tech world.<BR>
><BR>
>>The major flaws in this logic are apparent when you realize that this<BR>
means<BR>
>>that industrialized worlds will have no exports, and hence can make no<BR>
money<BR>
>>in a system that is based on the trading of such materials.<BR>
><BR>
>Sure they can. They can sell to other worlds with the same general TL.<BR>
<BR>
Alright. Fair enough. Let's turn the tables then: What defines a tech level?<BR>
If you're able to use the term so casually, surely you must have an idea of<BR>
how it works. When does a TL5 world become a TL6 world? Is there one *major*<BR>
development that separates TL1 from TL2, or is it a bunch of smaller<BR>
developments? Please don't give an answer like, "a TL5 world becomes TL6<BR>
when it begins using TL6 technology on a large scale". What does TL signify,<BR>
specifically?<BR>
<BR>
>>It depends on the amount of people who would be involved in these tertiary<BR>
>>occupations.<BR>
><BR>
>Yes, and I think a sizable part of the population would be involved in<BR>
>tertiary occupations even if it is assumed that it has almost no none-food<BR>
>primary and secondary occupations (which I think is a very iffy assumption,<BR>
>but not impossible).<BR>
<BR>
Fair enough, do you have any notion of how to go about dealing with the<BR>
situation?<BR>
<BR>
>I think the best way to rationalize TL involves a very pragmatic<BR>
>interpretation: TL indicates the technology in use locally. It doesn't<BR>
>resolve all problems, but it resolves more than any other interpretation<BR>
>I've seen.<BR>
<BR>
It doesn't resolve any problems. It just shifts the question from "what is<BR>
tech level good for" to "what does each tech level signify".<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2000 10:38:59 -0400<BR>
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca><BR>
Subject: Re: Disparate TLs<BR>
<BR>
Hans Rancke-Madsen writes:<BR>
>>It is hard to defend the disparity in TL between nearby worlds in the OTU.<BR>
>I disagree. I find it perfectly explainable. The problem is that the<BR>
>usual argument to the contrary leaves out one crucial bit. It goes something<BR>
>like this "Given the cost of transportation in the Imperium, any world that<BR>
>is not interdicted can buy TL 15 equipment". And the crucial bit that is<BR>
>left out? "...provided they produce something offworlders will pay a<BR>
>reasonable price for".<BR>
>"Sure you can buy this state-of-the-art laser rifle. All it'll cost you is<BR>
>a thousand Crimps."What will you pay me for a cartload of ragabatu roots?"<BR>
>"One Crimp." "Never mind."<BR>
<BR>
	I don't buy this argument.  When a PC arrives on a TL 6 world, the<BR>
	price of a rifle is Cr 200 (IIRC).  Let's say that world has a<BR>
	standing army that uses 5,000,000 rifles.  How hard can it be for the<BR>
	local government to pay the PCs Cr 3,000 (a 100% markup, IIRC) each<BR>
	for 333,333 laser rifles?  These are Imperial credits that the PCs<BR>
	are buying and selling with, LBB2 certainly lets players buy and<BR>
	sell freely on most any world.  One could argue that some worlds<BR>
	are economically isolated (why did they colonize it in the first<BR>
	place?), but not all or even most (IMHO).<BR>
<BR>
	Even so, if it takes 1000 cartloads of ragabatu roots to buy a laser<BR>
	rifle, perhaps the world can produce a few million cartloads.  What<BR>
	about this copper mine here, how much will you offer for good copper<BR>
	ore (in Imperial credits, please).  Perhaps a Megacorp would like to<BR>
	invest in developing this resource, with TL 9+ equipment.<BR>
<BR>
	Even this is a gross simplification.  Exactly what is keeping a TL 5<BR>
	world from smuggling a few science texts from a TL 6 world and upping<BR>
	its own TL?  Even a poor TL 5 world could probably scrape together<BR>
	enough Imperial credits to import a little TL 6 manufacturing equipment<BR>
	assuming that the pop is high enough).  How about bringing in a few<BR>
	scientists/engineers/etc. and letting them live like kings as long as<BR>
	they help upgrade the TL? <BR>
<BR>
	I figure that low-tech worlds generally find it more efficient to<BR>
	use equipment that they understand and can maintain locally.  Having<BR>
	5,000,000 rifles may be better than having 300,000 laser rifles,<BR>
	especially if recharging them is a problem.  I don't think that the<BR>
	TL differences are impossible to explain, only that they are no easier<BR>
	to explain than some of the other Traveller bits that we have been<BR>
discussing.<BR>
<BR>
Peez<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 09:41:34 -0500 <BR>
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com><BR>
Subject: Life on the Edge<BR>
<BR>
With all the world development happening on the TML, I<BR>
thought I'd throw the following into the mix for everyone's<BR>
perusal. The following was taken from an article posted<BR>
today on the ScienceDaily Magazine site.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -- quote --<BR>
<BR>
The limits of life on Earth are much broader than previously<BR>
thought. Examples of life at extreme conditions include: <BR>
<BR>
Hottest: 235.4 F--bacteria from deep sea vents <BR>
<BR>
Coldest: 5 F--microalgae in Antarctic rocks <BR>
<BR>
Deepest: Bacteria, two miles underground in rocks <BR>
<BR>
Most acidic: Unclassified organisms growing on gypsum in caves<BR>
             at pH 0 <BR>
<BR>
Highest radiation: 5 million rads--Deinococcus radiodurans<BR>
                  (bacteria)***<BR>
<BR>
Saltiest: Bacteria, 30 percent salt environment <BR>
<BR>
Deepest and Highest pressure: 1200 atm--at bottom of Marianas Trench<BR>
                              (ocean) <BR>
<BR>
Farthest: Moon, Streptococcus mitus (from human source) from Surveyor<BR>
          III camera after three years unprotected on lunar surface<BR>
<BR>
[Source: NASA]<BR>
<BR>
***D. radiodurans was living in swollen tins of irradiated meat when<BR>
   discovered in Oregon in the 1950s. Studies revealed a unique,<BR>
   almost bizarre, ability to repair numerous DNA double strand<BR>
   breaks--the most lethal kind of genetic damage--within hours. <BR>
<BR>
- -- endquote --<BR>
<BR>
- -- quote --<BR>
<BR>
Additionally, the embryos of brine shrimp called artemia can almost<BR>
totally dry out without dying, and then rehydrate themselves when<BR>
there's water. Nematodes and an organism called tardigrade can survive<BR>
nearly 98 percent dehydration.<BR>
<BR>
- -- endquote --<BR>
<BR>
The complete article can be found, BTW, at:<BR>
<BR>
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2000/03/000331090958.htm<BR>
<BR>
David<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2000 10:09:56 -0500<BR>
From: "Kevin C. Carpenter" <teruiki@swbell.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Dolphins, Resources Needed<BR>
<BR>
    I've been gathering the same info myself, and several people have<BR>
already been kind enough to provide me with the information and resources,<BR>
so I'll forward you what I've got so far so the others won't have to post it<BR>
again.<BR>
<BR>
- - Kevin<BR>
kccarpenter@swbell.net<BR>
<BR>
> Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2000 07:26:37 -0600<BR>
> From: "Eric T. Holmes" <eholmes@lanl.gov><BR>
> Subject: Dolphins;  Resources Needed<BR>
><BR>
> Fellow TMLers and LandGrab Authors:<BR>
><BR>
> I finally pickeed up Behind the Claw at my FLGS.  I noticed<BR>
> there is a one line entry under Equus SM2417 that mentions<BR>
> "Dolphins."  I have the JTAS article that has developed them.<BR>
><BR>
<snip><BR>
> Are there any other reference materials for these creatures?<BR>
> Eric<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 11:28:19 -0700<BR>
From: "Antony Farrell" <Skaran@bigpond.com><BR>
Subject: How the Universe Died?<BR>
<BR>
In the Solomani Rim was an Earthlike world (I cannot remember  its name), it<BR>
looked like an ideal colony world, and a colony was established only to die.<BR>
It seems there was a local organism that absorbed iron and the colonists all<BR>
dies of anaemia, their equipment falling apart.<BR>
The world was interdicted. Then along comes virus, the interdiction beacon<BR>
or squadron is destroyed.<BR>
Years pass, the world is visited by a human recon team, not knowing about<BR>
the interdiction. They land, pick up the organism and spread it.<BR>
Centuries later a visitor from another spiral arm, galaxy etc enters the<BR>
region and finds a lot of dead world and crumbling machinery, and picks up<BR>
the organism!<BR>
<BR>
Interestingly on Earth iron eating bacteria do exist. The wreck of the<BR>
Titanic is apparently infested with this bug, I read somewhere that in<BR>
another 70 years none of the iron in the wreck will be left.<BR>
<BR>
Antony<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2000 08:10:06 -0700<BR>
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)<BR>
Subject: RE: Imperial Marine models? (was Re: Combat Armor)<BR>
<BR>
>From: Jesse DeGraff <jdegraff@pacbell.net><BR>
>Subject: RE: Imperial Marine models? (was Re: Combat Armor)<BR>
><BR>
>Then there's the company that makes 1/6th "Aliens" armor, weapons, and<BR>
>accessories for 1:6 scale figures which are starting to really boom in<BR>
>popularity. Check out http://members.aol.com/M56SG/uscm.html to see what I<BR>
mean.<BR>
<BR>
  Oh my! - luckily I'm a miniatures _gamer_, so anything too large to be<BR>
of practical use for that I'm immune to buying on impulse. Mostly (did I<BR>
mention T4 "Starships"?...).<BR>
<BR>
  Well, given that a 1:_16th_ kit - even in resin - would be _far_ cheaper<BR>
than those figures, it's still nice to know that people will shell out huge<BR>
amounts of money for cool toys - although those VW restoration guys worry me.<BR>
<BR>
...<BR>
>>   What might be a lot more practical for the rest of us would be for some<BR>
>> company like Armorcast < www.armorcast.com > to do a licensed Traveller<BR>
>> model - for example, an Imperial Marine in the relatively popular (just look<BR>
>> at a _Dragon_ [plastic-model company] catalog) 1:16th scale (~110mm) could<BR>
>> be really nice - using the illo on p. 6 of SMC as a basis:<BR>
>>   - the classic IM combat armoured infantryman, with a pose slightly<BR>
>> modifiable by making the limb mounts ball & socket - just epoxy the<BR>
>> parts (works pretty well with resin, drill & pin if paranoid) in place.<BR>
>>   - have one or two human heads available in addition to the armoured<BR>
>> helmet - their line of Battletech licensed products relies on customers<BR>
>> picking and choosing from a large array of weapons to fit hardpoints, so<BR>
>> this idea is well-supported by their methods.<BR>
>>   - allow a selection of weapons - gauss rifle, FGMP, penguins, other man-<BR>
>> portable weapons as indicated by "Ground Forces"? :)<BR>
>>   - other small items might be accessory add-on packs, as might be buying<BR>
>> a spare shoulder-arm or a grav-belt; Grenadier included all sorts of neat<BR>
>> little odds & ends with their old 25mm's - some people will pay to be<BR>
>> able to customize their toys.<BR>
...<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2000 18:02:20 +0200<BR>
From: Holger Kadlez <paradin@gmx.de><BR>
Subject: Re: Stories in the printed copy of New Scientist which relate  toTraveller<BR>
<BR>
Brian Quirt write:<BR>
<BR>
<snip><BR>
<BR>
>         Come to think of it, the same would probably go for anyone wanting to<BR>
> study supernovas - I can't see being on site to observe one of those.<BR>
> And, of course, your (sadly deleted) point about pulsars fits in well<BR>
> with this.<BR>
<BR>
Actually, you can study a star on the brink of going supernova <BR>
from on site. The neutrino-emission of a star going SN rises up <BR>
by some magnitudes, *hours* before the star actually blows up.<BR>
IIRC it takes the explosion some time to reach the surface,<BR>
but I am not quite sure (I cannot look it up, here at work).<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Possibility for grim adventure:<BR>
<BR>
The PCs are at Antares, some distance away from the starport<BR>
(and their ship).  OK, everybody knows it is dangerous living<BR>
upon an active vulcano (so to speak) and the scientists tell<BR>
you the chances of Antares going SN is this and that many <BR>
percent, but haven't they done so for the last couple of cen-<BR>
turies. Yes, there are kinds of emergency-drills, and maybe<BR>
we will relocate somewhen in the (not so near) future, but <BR>
nothing has happend by now. Certainly do I bother about, it's<BR>
my home and my family, we are taking about.<BR>
(A typical view of a native of Antares: A human, being quite<BR>
human).<BR>
<BR>
Then suddenly, *every* neutrino-sensor goes mad.<BR>
A short moment of silence, as everybody digests the meaning of <BR>
this sign, the sign of armagedon.  Then hell breaks loose, as<BR>
the doom's day has arrived.<BR>
<BR>
The PC have to reach their ship with not much time left, <BR>
fighting their way through utter chaos, wittnessing scences <BR>
both heartbreaking of desperation and heartshaking attrocities.<BR>
Perhaps they prove to be true heros by risking their own escape<BR>
in order to help some others, perhaps thy realize the situations<BR>
as what it truelly is: Everyone is on his own to escape and our <BR>
ship is to small to take refugees with us.<BR>
<BR>
After a dead run to jump-distance (maybe well within 100D of<BR>
either the world or the star) they (miss-)jump outsystem, only <BR>
moments (in case the GM feals really dramatic) before the star <BR>
turns *really* bright and so about everything else in the system <BR>
returns to the dust from which it came.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Greetings,<BR>
	Paradin<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 11:07:39 -0600<BR>
From: Loren Wiseman <lkw@io.com><BR>
Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller Ship Design Question<BR>
<BR>
At 3:04 AM -0600 4/4/0, igor@truserve.com wrote:<BR>
>I've got a GT ship design question...<BR>
><BR>
>What modules, if any, are allowed to be 1/2 size?<BR>
><BR>
>In my particular case, is it permissible to have .5 of a maneuver module?<BR>
>Or do<BR>
>I need to create a special "micro-maneuver" module using vehicles?<BR>
><BR>
>I've got a ship that has .5 space left, and could use the extra 20 tons of<BR>
>thrust (being a TL10 ship)...<BR>
<BR>
Is this for the Cutter book or a private project? I'd like to (officially)<BR>
avoid this sort of thing if I can, as it kind of defeats the purpose of the<BR>
modular system, but there's no reason it couldn't be done other than that.<BR>
How vital is it to the design?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Loren Wiseman<BR>
     Traveller Line Manager<BR>
     Traveller Guru-in-Residence<BR>
     Editor, Journal of the Travellers' Aid Society<BR>
          http://jtas.sjgames.com/<BR>
     SJ Games<BR>
     LKW@IO.COM<BR>
     (512) 447-7866 VOX<BR>
     (512) 447-1144 FAX<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 09:09:16 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: AuricTech Shipyards <aurictech@esweeet.com><BR>
Subject: Re: _Scandalous_ class Modified Type S (FF&S2)<BR>
<BR>
>Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 00:54:48 +0100<BR>
>From: "Nick Bradbeer" <nickb@ndirect.co.uk><BR>
>Subject: Re: _Scandalous_ class Modified Type S (FF&S2) [Long]<BR>
><BR>
>>When someone mentioned that you can buy about 100 scout/couriers for the<BR>
>price of one real warship, I decided that I just _had_ to post this:<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
>Aaargh! You know, one day soon I'm going to have to arrange for orbital<BR>
>bombardment of AuricTech's head office. It's enough to make an engineer cry.<BR>
<BR>
Thank you, sir! ;-)<BR>
<BR>
OTOH, are you _sure_ you want to try to bombard the headquarters of a corporation capable of designing such a ship (not to mention the _Montana_ class)?<BR>
<BR>
Besides, AuricTech live by one of the sweetest phrases an engineer can [IMHO] hear:<BR>
<BR>
"Cost-plus contracts."<BR>
<BR>
==<BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/colverber/travler.html<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
_____________________________________________________________<BR>
Free eSweeet Mail - http://www.esweeet.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 08:03:49 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Imperial Marine models? (was Re: Combat Armor)<BR>
<BR>
In mail, traveller@lists.imagiconline.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
>   Take a look at the large-scale or resin model market - people buy<BR>
> anime-type stuff like Battlemechs or GW Titans at huge costs, and the<BR>
> 1:16 scale looks pretty popular when I go out shopping - there's so <BR>
> much out there now to choose from that I've been seriously considering<BR>
> kit-bashing something Travelleresque together in a non-rigid armour get-up.<BR>
>  <BR>
>   Would I buy such a kit? Hell yes.<BR>
<BR>
I'd be more interested if it was for 1/12th or 1/6th scale (these being<BR>
common for toys such as GI Joe). <BR>
<BR>
Modifying some GI Joe figures to *be* your characters, and even kluding<BR>
up some gear for them would make an eye-catching display at a con! And<BR>
store them on the shelf in fake low berths. Heck, at those scales you<BR>
can even have flashing lights and some readouts!<BR>
<BR>
Hmmm. A "diorama" of the control room of the ship?<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2000 08:26:53<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Dave Hyphen is channelling me<BR>
<BR>
At 11:42 AM 4/4/2000 +0200, you wrote:<BR>
>Douglas E. Berry wrote:<BR>
>> Wait until you see the Imperial Army uniform I'm going to have at BayCon.<BR>
><BR>
>Please, take a picture or five and post on a webpage somewhere. Preferrably<BR>
>with some kind of weapon (fake or real as you see fit) in your hands.<BR>
>Perhaps with some kind of nice background...<BR>
<BR>
The uniform is a set of Army "slops" (basic utility uniform.) I didn't have<BR>
the budget this year to do a set of full dress, and since somebody hasn't<BR>
gotten around to the amrmor yet..<BR>
<BR>
It's a very simple uniform, since I'm going to be doing panels and hosting<BR>
the Srephon's Jubilee Party in it.  Gray Federal short-sleeved BDU shirt,<BR>
black BDU pants, boots, black beret.  Had custom name tags made reading<BR>
IMPERIAL ARMY and BERRY.  Have a few other bells and whistles.<BR>
<BR>
Lots of pictures will be taken.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2000 08:28:35<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Filk explosion! Dulinor went to Capital<BR>
<BR>
At 04:41 PM 4/3/2000 -0700, you wrote:<BR>
>Is there anywhere online that one can purchase recordings of these songs?<BR>
>"Christian", what little I saw about it's mention here on the TML, sounds<BR>
>incredible.<BR>
<BR>
Jesse, Come to BayCon and we'll hit the filk tables together.  As it is, I<BR>
have the Challenger Memorial on tape.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2000 08:30:59<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Filk explosion! Dulinor went to Capital<BR>
<BR>
At 10:37 PM 4/3/2000 PST, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Other folks have recorded it, I'm sure. And the author of Dawson's<BR>
>Christian (Duane Elms) is popular enough that it *has* to be out there<BR>
>somewhere. <BR>
<BR>
For those folks coming to BayCon, Kathy Mar has been known to play it.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2000 08:36:48<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Filk explosion! Dulinor went to Capital<BR>
<BR>
At 10:23 PM 4/3/2000 PST, you wrote:<BR>
>In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>I'm not sure how I'd rate the "best" ones of my life.<BR>
<BR>
That was the best "send chills down your spine moment."  The best funny<BR>
moment was watching Kathy Mar's face as Bab Kanifsky sand his parody of<BR>
"Acts of Creation" right after Kathy had finished her song.  His version is<BR>
called "Acts of Theft"<BR>
<BR>
>Anybody want to try for a Traveller version of "Banned From Argo"? <BR>
<BR>
*ahem*<BR>
<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/bfm.html<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2000 08:38:49<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Landgrab question<BR>
<BR>
At 11:03 PM 4/3/2000 -0400, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>In the MT data, the Allegiance code "As", for "Aslan New Lords", means what<BR>
>exactly? Since they are clearly within Imperial borders, and thus should<BR>
>technically be allegiance code "Im", I presume these are worlds where there<BR>
>are significant numbers of Ihatei squatters, yes?<BR>
<BR>
These are worlds where the Aslan have achieved effective control of the<BR>
system.  The Imperium would have to fight it's way in, and the ihaeti are<BR>
free to impose their order on the world.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2000 08:43:24<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Landgrab: Second Claim<BR>
<BR>
Since I'm finishing up Heya, I claim Tenalphi/Lunion.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2000 08:42:07<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Tee En Ess<BR>
<BR>
At 08:40 PM 4/3/2000 EDT, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>That's what I get for writing these d*mned things in my sl**p . . .<BR>
<BR>
Um, Loren.. between you and Marc, exactly how much of this stuff was<BR>
written while asleep?<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 09:15:21 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Disparate TLs<BR>
<BR>
Hans Rancke-Madsen writes:<BR>
> <BR>
> >It is hard to defend the disparity in TL between nearby worlds in the OTU.<BR>
> <BR>
> I disagree. I find it perfectly explainable. The problem is that the<BR>
> usual argument to the contrary leaves out one crucial bit. It goes<BR>
> something like this "Given the cost of transportation in the Imperium, any<BR>
> world that is not interdicted can buy TL 15 equipment". And the crucial bit<BR>
> that is left out? "...provided they produce something offworlders will pay a<BR>
> reasonable price for".<BR>
<BR>
The major problem with nearby worlds having dissimilar TLs isn't that some<BR>
forms of it don't happen (the earth ranges from TL 0 to 8) but that any<BR>
TL but the highest will tend to be distorted.  An area which was TL 6 when<BR>
that was nearly the highest on earth would tend to have a complete <BR>
manufacturing industry at TL 6.  Today, that area will have equipment ranging<BR>
the gamut up through TL 8, but they won't have much in the way of <BR>
manufacturing industries at all, because there's _no_ point to building a<BR>
TL 6 factory.  If a new factory is built in the area, it will be TL 8 (and<BR>
the local TL will remain 6).<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2000 18:37:01 +0200<BR>
From: Ingo Heinscher <Hiroshi.Estigarribia@gmx.de><BR>
Subject: Re: Tee En Ess<BR>
<BR>
At 08:42 04.04.00, Douglas E. Berry wrote:<BR>
>At 08:40 PM 4/3/2000 EDT, you wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>>That's what I get for writing these d*mned things in my sl**p . . .<BR>
><BR>
>Um, Loren.. between you and Marc, exactly how much of this stuff was<BR>
>written while asleep?<BR>
<BR>
Another question:<BR>
<BR>
Why hasn't the bug been fixed yet? I mean, it's just changing the location<BR>
of the message...<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
"This was not meant to be an aggresssion against the Siru Zirka. But we had<BR>
to organize our affairs a bit more efficiently. To be honest, we have had<BR>
to do this for almost 300 years by now."<BR>
unknown Terran politician, -2398 Imp<BR>
;-) ingo heinscher <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2000 09:53:53 -0700<BR>
From: "Kelly St.Clair" <kellys@efn.org><BR>
Subject: Re: Filk explosion! Dulinor went to Capital<BR>
<BR>
>On Mon, 3 Apr 2000 22:23:28 PST, shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard <BR>
>Erickson) wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>Anybody want to try for a Traveller version of "Banned From Argo"?<BR>
><BR>
>"And we're banned from Argo, everyone...<BR>
>  Banned from Argo just for having a little fun<BR>
>  We spent a jolly shore leave there<BR>
>  For just three days or four<BR>
>  But Argo doesn't want us anymore"<BR>
<BR>
Please, God, no.<BR>
<BR>
My own feelings on "Banned From Argo" are well summed up by Steven Brinich <BR>
(at http://www.radix.net/~steveb/myfilks.htm#achybreakyargo ):<BR>
<BR>
You can torture me<BR>
With every parody<BR>
Of /Dawson's Christian/, /Lies/, and /No Man's Land/<BR>
You can play some ose<BR>
Depressingly verbose<BR>
Backed up by a kazoo and washtub band<BR>
/Horsetamer's Daughter/'s nice<BR>
Hey, you can play it twice<BR>
Add extra verses so it's not too short<BR>
But, Mr. Filker, please<BR>
I'm begging on my knees<BR>
I just can't take no more of Argo port<BR>
<BR>
Don't play that song<BR>
That /Banned From Argo/ song<BR>
The most repeated song I know<BR>
And if you play that song<BR>
That /Banned From Argo/ song<BR>
I might go play the radio, oooo...<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>Hmmm. Now *there's* a nasty thought. Have the PCs land just a such an<BR>
>infamous shore leave starts. For once *they* get to be on the<BR>
>*receiving* end of the sorts of chaos they tend to inflict on ports...<BR>
><eg><BR>
<BR>
Assuming, of course, that they don't join forces with the other <BR>
party.  Which could lead to the end of life (as we know it) on that planet.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- --------------<BR>
Kelly St.Clair    "You know, Brink, you've been acting funny ever since<BR>
kellys@efn.org     you came back from the dead.  (I can't believe I just<BR>
                    said that.)"    -- Commander Boston Low, THE DIG<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2246<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2247</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
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Traveller-digest       Tuesday, April 4 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2247<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Cipatwe as 'Gourmet Ghetto'<BR>
Life support (was Re: Stellar Data question..)<BR>
Re: New Madrid Fault<BR>
Re: Evidence of a free Press in the Third Imperium<BR>
Re: Life on the Edge<BR>
THUDDD 12<BR>
Re: _Scandalous_ class Modified Type S (FF&S2)<BR>
maps in pdf and postscript<BR>
NEW ELEMENT<BR>
Re: L'oeil d'Dieu, part 1, v1.0 (long)<BR>
Re: Dolphins;  Resources Needed<BR>
Ping Nick Munn<BR>
Warrant of the Restoration<BR>
Re: Tee En Ess<BR>
Re: Cipatwe as 'Gourmet Ghetto'<BR>
Re: Warrant of the Restoration<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 12:58:02 EDT<BR>
From: GypsyComet@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Cipatwe as 'Gourmet Ghetto'<BR>
<BR>
Kevin (kccarpenter@swbell.net) types:<BR>
<BR>
>Perhaps sometime in the past Cipatwe was a more cultural, open place than it<BR>
>is now, and something has happened to change that.<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
 So the best Cipatwe cooking is now found off-world...<BR>
<BR>
GC<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 08:10:06 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Life support (was Re: Stellar Data question..)<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) wrote<BR>
><BR>
>> > Why do you assume that people would be willing to live in<BR>
>> > high density housing when there is a whole planet out there<BR>
>> > with only half a million people on it?<BR>
><BR>
>> Keep in mind that a lot depends on how dwellings are constructed. Any<BR>
>> world without a thin or beter atmosphere, or without a substantial<BR>
>> magnetic field is just about going to *have* to build underground for<BR>
>> protection from solar flares (yes, even Type M stars can have dangerous<BR>
>> flares, though I'll readily admit that I have no idea regarding the<BR>
>> relative frequency compared with G stars).<BR>
><BR>
> Then the proper question is how cheap tunneling and adding <BR>
> life support is. I'll use MT rules.<BR>
><BR>
> In ship design for planetoid hulls Tunneling is Cr 75 per <BR>
> kilo liter. At 13.5 tons per kilo liter this works out to Cr <BR>
> 1,012.5 per ton. We will call it Cr 1,000. If we give each <BR>
> person 500 square feet of living area with 10 foot ceilings <BR>
> this is 5,000 cubic feet per person, or about 10 displacement<BR>
> tons or 135 kilo liters. Tunneling will cost Cr 10,000 per person. <BR>
> We will then add in Basic Environment, Basic Life Support,<BR>
> Extended Life Support for Cr 510 per kilo liter or Cr 68,850<BR>
> per person. Our dwelling now costs Cr about 80,000 per person.<BR>
> [about Cr 82,00 per person with one airlock per two inhabitants]<BR>
> Clearly these costs are a bit high.<BR>
<BR>
"10 foot ceilings" (or 3 meter ones :-) are *not* going to be at all<BR>
common. Wastes too much space. And for what it's worth, the cielings in<BR>
my apartment are only 7' 8'. Figure the extra 4 inches is for wiring<BR>
and "framing" and you get 8 feet. So call it 2.5 meters instead of 3<BR>
meters. A savings of 17-20%. <BR>
<BR>
>> This means that it's a *hell* of a lot cheaper to dig out a common<BR>
>> "warren" of tunnels, which give you access to everybody else even<BR>
>> during flares than to dig a bunch of individual dwellings.<BR>
><BR>
> No this only proves that each family dwelling would be<BR>
> buried deeply. Why are the inhabitants going to pay money<BR>
> for additional tunnel space?<BR>
<BR>
So they can get between buildings during a "storm"? Remember, while<BR>
many will be over in minutes, the danger levels from flares can last<BR>
for several *days*.<BR>
<BR>
Also, onsider my point (from another post). You are likely to start out with<BR>
a base or port that will be "centralized". So, excavation costs for the<BR>
living space are the same whether you build a free-standing dwelling or<BR>
one attached to the "edge" of the existing settlement.<BR>
<BR>
*BUT* you won't have to excavate the space for life support equipment<BR>
if you are attached. Nor will you have to buy and maintain that<BR>
equipment. You *will* have to pay extra for the stretch of "corridor"<BR>
that joins you to the "city", as well as some plumbing.<BR>
<BR>
In return, you *don;'t* have to balance your own LS setup, and you get<BR>
to leave your suit at home. No need to go "outside" to go into town. <BR>
<BR>
Either way you need some environmental alarms (oxygen hi/lo, pressure<BR>
hi/lo, and of course, "smoke" detectors will likely be required by<BR>
law). And some emergency gear. <BR>
<BR>
>> > Inefficiency per unit may be preferable to high transport costs.<BR>
><BR>
>> But that's the *point*, if you can use a "local tech" shared system,<BR>
>> versus a high tech individualized system, the costs will *greatly*<BR>
>> favor the "local tech" solution.<BR>
><BR>
> I am talking about the on planet transport of the air, water,<BR>
> sewage, etc between the dwellings. If each hose does these itself<BR>
> then you do not need these pipes.<BR>
<BR>
See above about costs of "adding on" versus building seperately. We<BR>
aren't talking houses every 50 feet. We are talking apartments only a<BR>
few meters apart. So the piping is minimal. <BR>
<BR>
>> So? Communication <> telephone service. Also, phone service has been<BR>
>> available by radio in a lot of places. (I happen to have an interest in<BR>
>> telephone systems). Heck, there are places that still use the "operator<BR>
>> radios the settelment radio operator" method, and have done so since<BR>
>> before I was born. <BR>
>> <BR>
>> They've had radio for decades. At least in the small settlements. And a<BR>
>> fair number of the folks who live by themselve have one too. <BR>
><BR>
> As Will Hostman has pointed out in a separate post radio has<BR>
> some problems in some places. Given that our planet purportedly<BR>
> has high background radiation levels I don't know if it will<BR>
> work well on our planet. Since our planet is too primitive<BR>
> for meson comms and laser comms need line of sight, I would<BR>
> suggest a maser comm up to a satellite and then back down to<BR>
> the receiver. Given the high costs of this method I'm not<BR>
> sure its practical on our planet.<BR>
<BR>
If it has even a *thin* atmosphere, you can use "meteor bounce". The<BR>
constant rain of micrometeorites produces ionization trails, which you<BR>
can bounce radio signals off of. And for the last 10-20 years they've<BR>
had gear that can find and switch between the trails in realtime, so<BR>
you get a nice "telephone quality" connection without the usual hassles<BR>
they have near the poles. <BR>
<BR>
Also, once you've got regular space travel, it costs *very* little to<BR>
set up and maintain the equivalent of the Iridium system that Motorola<BR>
has (had). So you can sell the service at regular phone rates instead<BR>
of the inflated rates Motorola needed.<BR>
<BR>
I figure most TU worlds won't *have* "wired" links except for very<BR>
short range stuff and things they want to keep private. Not until they<BR>
get a dense enough population to start running into bandwidth problems.<BR>
  <BR>
>> > Moreover what makes you think outside advice is of any use?<BR>
>> <BR>
>> > "You say your power plant is out and the manual says you need <BR>
>> > to replace the XJ-42-170 fuse. Well replace it. What do you<BR>
>> > mean you don't have a spare. Do you have any similar parts?<BR>
>> > No, well do you have any manufacturing in town? No. Well then<BR>
>> > I guess you'd better find another source of power as I can't help<BR>
>> > you. CLICK"<BR>
>> <BR>
>> And a *real* engineer (as opposed to first level tech support) would<BR>
>> tell them how to rig a replacement out of a chunk of wire of the right<BR>
>> gauge.<BR>
><BR>
> Who says there is a 'real' engineer available?<BR>
<BR>
If the link is back to the folks who can repair it, then there *is* one<BR>
there. His availability depends on whether or not the company is acting<BR>
like Morton Thiokol...<BR>
<BR>
> Who says that they have wire of the right gauge available?<BR>
<BR>
If it's too thin, you use multiple strands. If it's too thick, you file<BR>
or scrape it.<BR>
<BR>
> We're talking <BR>
> about a village/planet with less than 300 people almost all <BR>
> of whom live in poverty, few of which have finished high school, <BR>
> and a lot of whom have substance abuse problems. Oh sure they <BR>
> have (in Gurps terms) Area Knowledge and Survival in the 15-20 <BR>
> range but their Mechanic skill is specialized in Snow Machines,<BR>
> not in power plants.<BR>
<BR>
Ok, at *300*, this is a problem. But not as bad as you may think. <BR>
<BR>
And a snowmobile engine *isn't* a power plant? <BR>
<BR>
>> Also, many life support problems are more amenable to work arounds. <BR>
>> The *many* stories of emergency medical procedures done by laymen being<BR>
>> "talked thru it" over a radio or phone link show the difference a comm<BR>
>> link can make when comm is faster than travel.<BR>
><BR>
> The medical procedures you are talking about were done with<BR>
> unskilled personnel and improvised tools but they do not<BR>
> normally involve _creating_ parts. If you have a solid state<BR>
> electronics or gravitics item the basic means of 'repairing'<BR>
> it is going to be - replace the bad part. If you do not have<BR>
> the right part you face a task as difficult as trying to build<BR>
> an artificial heart with the tools in your basement. Having<BR>
> someone who knows how to do it to talk you through it is not<BR>
> going to help enough.<BR>
<BR>
To use the "snow machine" bit above. You can hook a snowmobile engine up<BR>
to the generator part of the power plant (at least for the size plant<BR>
300 low tech people need). Using improvised "belt and drum"<BR>
transmissions if you have to. <BR>
<BR>
Likwise, there may be some other chunk of equipment that can be kludged<BR>
together with the parts of the busted machine that still work. It may<BR>
be ugly. It may be inefficient, but it'll work.<BR>
<BR>
As a life support example, it's possible to regen the "filters" used<BR>
for water, CO2, and "trace contaminants" in suits and small vehicles.<BR>
You need "oven" level temps and a halfway decent vacuum (very thin atm<BR>
might work, thin probably wouldn't). <BR>
<BR>
It's not a recommended procedure. But if it's all that's keeping you<BR>
alive, you'll do it. Likewise, if it's a vacuum world, I'd rig a<BR>
"condenser" rig in the shade to feeze out the water and liquefy the<BR>
CO2. Then you can electrolyze the water for more oxygen, and (with a<BR>
bit of work) use the hydrogen to convert the CO2 to Methane and O2 (I<BR>
know it can be done, as it's proposed for making fuel from the martian<BR>
atmosphere's CO2, I'm just not up on the details).<BR>
<BR>
>> >> >> Assume you live in the Midwest. Say North Dakota. It's midwinter, the<BR>
>> >> >> drifts are 10 feet high. And your town loses power. <BR>
>> >> ><BR>
>> >> > What do you need power for?<BR>
>> >> <BR>
>> >> I'm assuming a "typical" house/building. You need power or the damn<BR>
>> >> *furnace* doesn't work!<BR>
>> ><BR>
>> > You don't need a generator to keep warm if you have fuel.<BR>
>> > You can simply burn the heating oil directly out of the barrel<BR>
>> > it comes in once you cut the top off.<BR>
><BR>
>> But you don't *get* it in a barrel in the midwest (or around here). You<BR>
>> have a *tank*, usually *buried*. With a fill pipe too small to be much<BR>
>> use for extracting the fuel. <BR>
><BR>
> Where I'm talking about it comes in barrels because that is<BR>
> a convenient size for the barges (and if things get desperate,<BR>
> the small planes) to carry. Given that our planet has a fairly<BR>
> low population it is likely to be serviced primarily by free<BR>
> traders. These traders will have a lot more in common with the<BR>
> "ship the barrels on the barge" model used in the Alaskan bush<BR>
> than with the "Truck comes around and refills your buried tank"<BR>
> model you are apparently referring to.<BR>
<BR>
Sure, but my example was to show a fatal problem with current<BR>
conditions in the US. *NOT* to claim that the fatal problem on the<BR>
other planet would be the *same problem*. Just the same "type" (ie if X<BR>
breaks, and you can't fix it, you die before repair parts can arrive)<BR>
<BR>
>> And you can't burn it without the furnace<BR>
>> unless you *like* carbon monoxide poisoning (or have a fireplace that<BR>
>> you can rig something in). <BR>
><BR>
>> > Since houses on this planet have air recirculation systems capable<BR>
>> > of dealing with the (more polluted and toxic) outside air<BR>
>> > then they will not find interior air pollution to be much of<BR>
>> > a problem.<BR>
>> <BR>
>> Tell that to the people who kill themselves via carbon monoxide<BR>
>> poisoning every year...<BR>
><BR>
> This planet = the planet we're discussing, not Earth. The<BR>
> houses on this planet are going to be built to deal with<BR>
> carbon monoxide poisoning.<BR>
<BR>
Again, you are conflating two *seperate* problems into one. The problem<BR>
on the other planet is a *life support failure* NOT lack of heat.<BR>
  <BR>
>> >> Yeah, but *we* don't build houses that way. And worse, most modern<BR>
>> >> building have no provision to be heated by anything *but* the furnace<BR>
>> >> (at least not *safely*). <BR>
>> ><BR>
>> > A Franklin stove is about TL 4. A "modern" wood stove is<BR>
>> > probably TL 7. Single wood stoves can easily heat 10,000<BR>
>> > cubic foot dwellings at 40 below. Costs of said stoves is<BR>
>> > under $1,000. If this planet has wood (and some planets won't)<BR>
>> > then the problem is easy to solve.<BR>
>> <BR>
>> Sure, but since they are only needed in emergencies, most houses don't<BR>
>> *have* them.<BR>
><BR>
> Who says they are only needed in emergencies. Wood stoves are<BR>
> likely to be the cheapest form of heating (assuming abundant wood).<BR>
> If the population is low and land is cheap then wood is likely to<BR>
> be cheap or free, when you want it you simply cut it down.<BR>
<BR>
Yeah, but for *that* scenario we are talking about people in small<BR>
cities and towns here in the US. Where woodstoves are increasingly<BR>
*illegal* because of pollution concerns. Also, anybody who has ever<BR>
priced a *true* cord of wood, and learned *how many* cords it takes to<BR>
get thru a winter isn't going to call wood "cheap". As for cutting it<BR>
yourself, I've cut and stacked cords. That's a *lot* of work for not<BR>
that much heat.<BR>
<BR>
>> >> I was using the *current* situation in most of the US as an analogy. If<BR>
>> >> *we* lose power, we lose heat, which is why many people have<BR>
>> >> generators of fireplaces. And those with neither get shifted into<BR>
>> >> places that *can* be kept livable until the power comes back. At least<BR>
>> >> for the few days it usually takes.<BR>
><BR>
> Yes but this is a result of our building style. If everyone<BR>
> lived underground, as you seem to be saying people on this<BR>
> planet would, then the insulation provided by the soil would <BR>
> likely make this unnecessary. If you're far enough underground <BR>
> you will have an very stable year round temperature.<BR>
<BR>
Again, that's *not* what I was talking about. <BR>
<BR>
Premise: Inability to repair (or have backup for) critical item can<BR>
         *kill* you if you can't get help for two weeks.<BR>
<BR>
*Earth* example(#1): loss of power in Midwest cities in midwinter leads to<BR>
        inability to heat houses.<BR>
<BR>
*off world* example(#2): life support failure, not repairable because<BR>
	equipment is above local TL<BR>
<BR>
Two *different* problems. But *analogous* to each other.<BR>
<BR>
No *wonder* so many of your replies were so weird. You thought I was<BR>
talking about lack of heat being a problem in case 2!<BR>
<BR>
>> I think the big difference is that you haven't considered how most<BR>
>> worlds that require life support are going to get settled. They'll<BR>
>> start out with some sort of base. Which *will* use centralized<BR>
>> facilities. And while other settlements may spring up later, that main<BR>
>> one (and any others that start out a "bases" or "camps" rather than<BR>
>> individual dwellings) will grow by expanding. Which incldes expanding<BR>
>> or adding to the "centralized" facilities, simply because that will be<BR>
>> both easier and *cheaper*. <BR>
><BR>
> This logic is not supported by the Traveller rules. When using<BR>
> World Builders Handbook to detail a planets population it makes<BR>
> _no_ reference to the number and size of settlements being<BR>
> affected by planetary climate. Therefore worlds in the Imperium <BR>
> must not follow this logic or it would have been mentioned<BR>
> in canon.<BR>
<BR>
Non sequitur. Failure to mention something in canon doesn't prove<BR>
anything except that it isn't mentioned in canon. <BR>
<BR>
For example, they don't mention that ships and vacuum world settlements<BR>
need massive shielding against flares.<BR>
<BR>
Also, it's not *climate* that's the issue here. Let me state this<BR>
clearly. I am not talking about other planets with poor climates. I'm<BR>
talking about other planets where you *need* life support gear. Can't<BR>
breathe the air, and very little or no easily available water. Think of<BR>
the moon, or Mars without the icecaps. <BR>
<BR>
>> > If my houses air circulation fails in the middle of the night<BR>
>> > on a planet with bad air I can/will be _dead_ in minutes. I<BR>
>> > am going to have a smoke alarm type bad air detector in <BR>
>> > every room and a filter mask or O2 tank for each person. <BR>
>> <BR>
>> And wouldn't you rather have it being handled by someone whose sole job<BR>
>> is monitoring and repairing the air system?<BR>
><BR>
> Of course not. If he screws up he looses his job, maybe not <BR>
> even that if he has a strong union. If I screw up I die.<BR>
> I have a much greater incentive to get it right.<BR>
<BR>
No, if he screws up, he *dies*, just like you. <BR>
<BR>
And there ain't no union yet that can get a member off if his<BR>
negligence *directly* results in death. That's *at least* manslaughter.<BR>
<BR>
> If the designers on TNE were trying to model a reality in which<BR>
> some planets were prepared for this sort of risk they would<BR>
> have included tables for randomly determining if airless planets<BR>
> in the wilds still had life. They did not do so, therefore we<BR>
> _know_ that no Wilds airless planets were prepared for this<BR>
> problem. Only in pocket empires is their any chance of having <BR>
> a population on a world with bad air. Pocket empires were<BR>
> essentially made up by GDW or the Ref to provide star faring<BR>
> settings to play in, if they were actually likely to exist their<BR>
> would be randomly generated and not placed by referee's.<BR>
<BR>
Completely and *totally* irrelevant. Because TNE *also* involved folks<BR>
going around trying to *kill* planets. <BR>
<BR>
I'm talking about an entirely different level of hazard here. To put it<BR>
in comtemporay terms, I'm talking about be ready for uncommon but<BR>
virtually certain problems (blizzard, tornado, hurricane, major<BR>
equipment failure). You are talking about a dinosaur killer or<BR>
a major nuclear exchange. Not the same thing at all. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 09:11:41 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: New Madrid Fault<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>     The quake was not just one.  From Dec. 1911 to Mar. 1912 there<BR>
> were at least 3 quakes that busted an 8 on the scale.  Aftershocks<BR>
> and tremors were continuous throughout that time period.<BR>
<BR>
Slight typo. That should be *1811* and *1812*. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 09:21:48 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Evidence of a free Press in the Third Imperium<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> In the TML tradition of extrapolating a universe from a single data<BR>
> point...<BR>
><BR>
> I recall that char gen ensures that its membership is a combination<BR>
> of the wealthy (1 MCr in loose change) and retired high ranking<BR>
> naval officers (O4+?)<BR>
<BR>
It's on the Marines table as well. But I don't see why you'd need<BR>
*high* rank, as it only takes a roll of 5. <BR>
<BR>
> This could be a very independent minded board that would make<BR>
> the TNS look like a very free institution. However, in a war,<BR>
> their first thoughts wouldn't be "we're going to publish the<BR>
> locations and battle plans of all the navy's ships because it<BR>
> proves we are independent."**<BR>
<BR>
No, "We're going to 'accidentally' publish some vital war info. And<BR>
apologize for the 'slip' later. Of course, it'll be a trap..."<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2000 09:47:36 -0700<BR>
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Life on the Edge<BR>
<BR>
>From: "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com><BR>
>Subject: Life on the Edge<BR>
...<BR>
>***D. radiodurans was living in swollen tins of irradiated meat when<BR>
>   discovered in Oregon in the 1950s. Studies revealed a unique,<BR>
>   almost bizarre, ability to repair numerous DNA double strand<BR>
>   breaks--the most lethal kind of genetic damage--within hours. <BR>
<BR>
  Also the mechanism used by the baddies in Christopher Rowleys' _Vang_<BR>
books (follow-ons to the _Starhammer_ novel) - quite rationally put-<BR>
together little beasties that make Aliens, Predators, Genestealers, etc.<BR>
look like lunch - which is pretty much how the Vang see it :><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 18:40:52 +0100<BR>
From: "Nick Bradbeer" <nickb@ndirect.co.uk><BR>
Subject: THUDDD 12<BR>
<BR>
Since I missed the actual announcements and stuff....<BR>
<BR>
When's the design deadline for THUDDD12? My entry's nearly finished, but it<BR>
needs a little tweaking yet.<BR>
<BR>
And what's the format  for submissions? I'd like to do deckplans to go with<BR>
it, but there's no point if it's going to be displayed in text-only.<BR>
<BR>
Nick<BR>
(Wearing his ANRA Tech hat*.)<BR>
+++<BR>
*Which has headlights, a fan and a pintle-mounted water pistol.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 18:32:25 +0100<BR>
From: "Nick Bradbeer" <nickb@ndirect.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: _Scandalous_ class Modified Type S (FF&S2)<BR>
<BR>
>OTOH, are you _sure_ you want to try to bombard the headquarters of a<BR>
corporation capable of designing such a ship (not to mention the _Montana_<BR>
class)?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Yes, because while they may be able to _design_ such a ship, they'd never be<BR>
to _afford_ one....<BR>
<BR>
My fleet of Moderately Crappy But Really Really Cheap battle riders* will<BR>
swarm the planet. Sure, half of them will get shot down by the defenders<BR>
because we didn't put any meson screens on them, but because they're Really<BR>
Really Cheap, there's a Sh*tload Of Them and some are certain to get to<BR>
Garbage Cannon** range. ;-p<BR>
<BR>
Nick<BR>
+++<BR>
*Funded by the sale of Trabant IV Class Low Budget Packet Freighters***.<BR>
**For non Red-Dwarf fans (shame on you) that's a Thermos flask of<BR>
nitroglycerine, discharged from the garbage ejector.<BR>
***Which, on a serious note, have a higher profit margin than any other<BR>
Traveller ship I've ever seen. www.nickb.ndirect.co.uk/tneships/ships.html<BR>
They're actually one of the designs I'm proudest of.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 10:49:17 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
Subject: maps in pdf and postscript<BR>
<BR>
My baseline imperial map is now in postscript and pdf.  It is a 35 page<BR>
file (one sector per page); each world has the first 7 characters of its<BR>
name, its UWP (leaving out the - between law level and TL), and a third <BR>
line with alignment, capital (* for sector, + for subsector), base code,<BR>
and WTN (0-D; twice the WTN, converted to hex); there are spaces between<BR>
alignment and capital, and between base code and WTN.  In addition, all trade<BR>
routes are shown; wider routes have more trade (each step wider is a 10x<BR>
increase in trade).<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/ac_jackson/trav/trade.pdf<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/ac_jackson/trav/trade.ps<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 14:23:00 -0400<BR>
From: "Sword-Worlder" <swordworlder@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: NEW ELEMENT<BR>
<BR>
MAJOR U.S. RESEARCH UNIVERSITY DISCOVERS NEW ELEMENT!<BR>
 <BR>
The heaviest element known to science was recently discovered by<BR>
investigators at a major U.S. research university.  The element,<BR>
tentatively named Administratium, has no protons or electrons and thus<BR>
has an atomic number of 0.  However, it does have 1 neutron, 125<BR>
assistant neutrons, 75 vice neutrons, and 111 assistant vice neutrons.<BR>
This gives it an atomic mass of 312.  <BR>
<BR>
These 312 particles are held together by a force that involves the<BR>
continuous exchange of meson-like particles called morons. It is also<BR>
surrounded by vast quantities of lepton-like particles called peons.<BR>
 <BR>
Since it has no electrons, Administratium is inert.  However, it can<BR>
be detected chemically as it impedes every reaction it comes in<BR>
contact with.  According to the discoverers, a minute amount of<BR>
Administratium causes one reaction to take over four days to complete<BR>
when it would have normally occurred in less than one second. <BR>
<BR>
Administratium has a normal half-life of approximately three years, at<BR>
which time it does not decay, but instead undergoes a reorganization<BR>
in which assistant neutrons, vice neutrons, and assistant vice<BR>
neutrons exchange places. In fact, an Administratium sample's mass<BR>
actually INCREASES over time, since with each reorganization some of<BR>
the morons inevitably become neutrons, forming new isotopes. This<BR>
characteristic of moron promotion leads some scientists to speculate<BR>
that perhaps Administratium is spontaneously formed whenever morons<BR>
reach a certain quantity in concentration. This hypothetical quantity<BR>
is referred to as "critical morass."<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2000 12:21:28<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: L'oeil d'Dieu, part 1, v1.0 (long)<BR>
<BR>
At 09:03 PM 4/2/2000 +1000, you wrote:<BR>
>Fellow landgrabbers :-<BR>
>For your perusal.<BR>
>Notes [x] are at the end of the post.<BR>
<BR>
Wow!  I finally had the chance to sit down and really read this, and I must<BR>
say that this sort of thing was exactly what I had in mind when I first<BR>
proposed the Landgrab.<BR>
<BR>
A system, much like any other in the Marches, has become a living, vibrant<BR>
*place* with history, customs, and dangers.<BR>
<BR>
As an aside, I propose that the physical data be reported in the form given<BR>
in this post.  It was clean and easy to read.<BR>
<BR>
Again, wonderful job here.<BR>
- --<BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
"I created the universe; give ME the gift certificate!!"<BR>
                   - Lisa Simpson, Overachiever<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 15:17:30 -0600 (CST)<BR>
From: "Jason Kemp" <Jason.Kemp@tdh.state.tx.us><BR>
Subject: Re: Dolphins;  Resources Needed<BR>
<BR>
From: "Eric T. Holmes" <eholmes@lanl.gov><BR>
<BR>
> Fellow TMLers and LandGrab Authors:<BR>
> <BR>
> I finally pickeed up Behind the Claw at my FLGS.  I noticed<BR>
> there is a one line entry under Equus SM2417 that mentions<BR>
> "Dolphins."  I have the JTAS article that has developed them.<BR>
> <BR>
> Are there any other reference materials for these creatures?<BR>
> <BR>
> I really haven't paid much attention to the TML thread and have already<BR>
> round filed past TML files.<BR>
<BR>
Eric,<BR>
<BR>
Check out the MT stats for them in TD13.<BR>
<BR>
Good luck,<BR>
Jason<BR>
<BR>
=============================<BR>
Jason Kemp, ADS Programmer IV<BR>
(512)458-7111 ext. 1+3375<BR>
Internet Address:  jason.kemp@tdh.state.tx.us<BR>
<BR>
Most computer virus and email alerts are hoaxes.  For more info, check out:<BR>
http://urbanlegends.miningco.com/culture/beliefs/urbanlegends/library/blhoax.htm<BR>
==============================<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2000 16:36:50 -0400<BR>
From: Jeff Zeitlin <jzeitlin@cyburban.com><BR>
Subject: Ping Nick Munn<BR>
<BR>
I was going through my overloaded In Box, and found some<BR>
interesting messages. I need to pursue some of them.  The last<BR>
address for Nick Munn that I have is N.S.Munn@sheffield.ac.uk -<BR>
but that was in November of 1997, and he was about to change<BR>
jobs. I don't recall having seen his name on the list recently.<BR>
Anyone got any clues?<BR>
- --<BR>
Jeff Zeitlin<BR>
jzeitlin@cyburban.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 14:40:44 -0600 <BR>
From: Jason Postma <JasonP@i-link.net><BR>
Subject: Warrant of the Restoration<BR>
<BR>
I was very interested in a sidebar in GT: Starports that mentioned "The<BR>
Warrant of the Restoration" as the legal source of starport's extrality<BR>
lines.  Since it's dated 001-0000, it seems to be the document of<BR>
incorporation for the Third Imperium.  Having recently engaged in a<BR>
discussion about legal protections and rights for citizens of the 3I, this<BR>
is a topic of interest to me.  <BR>
<BR>
Anyone know of other refrences to the "Warrant of the Restoration?"<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 13:55:37 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Tee En Ess<BR>
<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
<BR>
>What would help *everyone* is a program that knows about the x-<BR>
>boat routes and can "roll" for travel times to/from the routes <BR>
>for worlds not on them. Input a world and a date, and it can <BR>
>tell you when the word of that "event" reaches any other world <BR>
>you specify.<BR>
<BR>
*I'm* with *Leonard* on *this* idea, even if I feel *compelled*<BR>
to make fun of his *use* of *asterisks.*  (*Actually*, the first<BR>
paragraph of his post only contains *one* asterisk, *but* I've<BR>
been noticing them so much lately that I *had* to mention them.)<BR>
<BR>
Anyway, this is something that I've thought about in an abstract<BR>
way, but never gotten off my butt to attempt.  It would also be<BR>
a good tool for interstellar wargaming, particularly a<BR>
multiplayer game (even, or maybe better, an email multiplayer<BR>
game).  Each side has a hierarchy of admirals and they send<BR>
their information to the referee, who resolves what happens<BR>
sends word back to the senior admiral.  This would capture the<BR>
loneliness of fleet actions and the frustration of time delay. <BR>
Maybe I'll work on it *this summer,* but *not* as computer<BR>
program, because I've *forgotten* everything I ever knew about<BR>
*Fortran.*  <BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.<BR>
http://im.yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 14:01:31 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Cipatwe as 'Gourmet Ghetto'<BR>
<BR>
>From: "Kevin C. Carpenter" <teruiki@swbell.net><BR>
<BR>
>Hmm - that's certainly an interesting take on it, and a much <BR>
>more pleasant one than I was leaning towards.<BR>
> At least in BtC, Cipatwe is a (GURPS) TL 6 world with a <BR>
>Control Rating of 5 - <BR>
<BR>
Behind the Claw is either a TNE or G:T publication, so it is set<BR>
sometime considerably after the Fifth Frontier War, which is the<BR>
time period in which I'm writing and in which I've run games. <BR>
Maybe something happened in the interim?<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.<BR>
http://im.yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 22:34:09 +0100<BR>
From: "Nick Bradbeer" <nickb@ndirect.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: Warrant of the Restoration<BR>
<BR>
>I was very interested in a sidebar in GT: Starports that mentioned "The<BR>
>Warrant of the Restoration" as the legal source of starport's extrality<BR>
>lines.  Since it's dated 001-0000, it seems to be the document of<BR>
>incorporation for the Third Imperium.  Having recently engaged in a<BR>
>discussion about legal protections and rights for citizens of the 3I, this<BR>
>is a topic of interest to me.<BR>
><BR>
>Anyone know of other refrences to the "Warrant of the Restoration?"<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Erm, I think there's a fair bit on it in G:T's Library Data section. Unless<BR>
I'm very much mistaken, it is indeed the document founding the Third<BR>
Imperium, called the Warrant Of Restoration because Cleon was presenting the<BR>
formation of his Imperium as the resurrection of the last.<BR>
<BR>
The Imperium being what is is, though, I doubt it bothers with such trifles<BR>
as individual rights though. Surely that's a metter for 'local government'?<BR>
<BR>
Nick<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2247<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2248</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
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Traveller-digest       Tuesday, April 4 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2248<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: THUDDD 12 & _Scandalous_<BR>
Re: TML Landgrab - 876-574<BR>
Re: Warrant of the Restoration<BR>
Re: The Landgrab - Cipatwe/Rhylanor<BR>
Collace<BR>
Re: Hard Times (was re: Re: Stellar Data question)<BR>
Re: Cipatwe as 'Gourmet Ghetto'<BR>
re: Warrant of the Restoration<BR>
re: Ping Nick Munn<BR>
10 foot ceilings (was re: Life support)<BR>
Trabant IV freighter<BR>
Re: Disparate TLs<BR>
RE: Notes on building Heya<BR>
RE: 10 foot ceilings (was re: Life support)<BR>
Re: 10 foot ceilings (was re: Life support)<BR>
TML Landgrab -- Squallia/District 268<BR>
RE: Notes on building Heya<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 15:20:12 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: AuricTech Shipyards <aurictech@esweeet.com><BR>
Subject: Re: THUDDD 12 & _Scandalous_<BR>
<BR>
>Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 18:40:52 +0100<BR>
>From: "Nick Bradbeer" <nickb@ndirect.co.uk><BR>
>Subject: THUDDD 12<BR>
><BR>
>Since I missed the actual announcements and stuff....<BR>
><BR>
>When's the design deadline for THUDDD12? My entry's nearly finished, but it<BR>
>needs a little tweaking yet.<BR>
><BR>
>And what's the format  for submissions? I'd like to do deckplans to go with<BR>
>it, but there's no point if it's going to be displayed in text-only.<BR>
<BR>
Unless I hear any objections to my running this THUDDD, I expect to have it up on my site by the end of next week (I have drill this weekend), with a deadline of about 13 May 2000 (right after my final exams).<BR>
<BR>
Concerning deckplans, I can include a link to them, but they aren't required.  (OTOH, having good deckplans might influence the THUDDD voters....)<BR>
><BR>
>Nick<BR>
>(Wearing his ANRA Tech hat*.)<BR>
>+++<BR>
>*Which has headlights, a fan and a pintle-mounted water pistol.<BR>
><BR>
>------------------------------<BR>
><BR>
>Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 18:32:25 +0100<BR>
>From: "Nick Bradbeer" <nickb@ndirect.co.uk><BR>
>Subject: Re: _Scandalous_ class Modified Type S (FF&S2)<BR>
><BR>
>>OTOH, are you _sure_ you want to try to bombard the headquarters of a<BR>
>corporation capable of designing such a ship (not to mention the _Montana_<BR>
>class)?<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
>Yes, because while they may be able to _design_ such a ship, they'd never be<BR>
>to _afford_ one....<BR>
<BR>
Good point.  Our corporate headquarters is on Dantooine.... ;-)<BR>
><BR>
>My fleet of Moderately Crappy But Really Really Cheap battle riders* will<BR>
>swarm the planet. Sure, half of them will get shot down by the defenders<BR>
>because we didn't put any meson screens on them, but because they're Really<BR>
>Really Cheap, there's a Sh*tload Of Them and some are certain to get to<BR>
>Garbage Cannon** range. ;-p<BR>
><BR>
>Nick<BR>
>+++<BR>
>*Funded by the sale of Trabant IV Class Low Budget Packet Freighters***.<BR>
>**For non Red-Dwarf fans (shame on you) that's a Thermos flask of<BR>
>nitroglycerine, discharged from the garbage ejector.<BR>
>***Which, on a serious note, have a higher profit margin than any other<BR>
>Traveller ship I've ever seen. www.nickb.ndirect.co.uk/tneships/ships.html<BR>
>They're actually one of the designs I'm proudest of.<BR>
<BR>
See my Web site for two of the most hideously profitable ships I've ever seen (the AuricTech F21 series).<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
==<BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/colverber/travler.html<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
_____________________________________________________________<BR>
Free eSweeet Mail - http://www.esweeet.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 18:34:16 EDT<BR>
From: Qstor@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: TML Landgrab - 876-574<BR>
<BR>
Any comments? On my entry :)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 18:37:18 EDT<BR>
From: Qstor@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Warrant of the Restoration<BR>
<BR>
There should be some in M:0 IIRC?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 18:38:12 EDT<BR>
From: Qstor@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: The Landgrab - Cipatwe/Rhylanor<BR>
<BR>
I assume they are in underwater or floating cities....<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2000 17:41:44 -0400<BR>
From: "Robert S. Dean" <rsdean@erols.com><BR>
Subject: Collace<BR>
<BR>
> From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU><BR>
> Subject: TML Landgrab: Collace<BR>
<BR>
> I was looking for a planet of my own, browsing through my copy of<BR>
> Galactic, when I saw that the tiny port of Binges (0805 District 268)<BR>
> was described as having put itself at risk of Imperial annexation<BR>
> by opening it's port to fleets from Collace during the Fifth Frontier War.<BR>
> The byline is Rob Dean, so this must be from the famous Dean Files.<BR>
> If this is accurate, then Collace was a belligerent during the FFW,<BR>
> against the Imperium...and considering how far away the nearest<BR>
> Zho or Sword World planets are, it was alone on this front while<BR>
> doing so.<BR>
...<BR>
> It is the biggest world in District 268, but it would still take a lot of<BR>
> gumption to go after the Imperium with your nearest allies so far away.<BR>
> <BR>
> Walt Smith<BR>
<BR>
I was away on business travel last week and didn't see this message<BR>
earlier.  My District 268 material doesn't stick to canon--I did not<BR>
have Double Adventure 6 at the time that I developed the timeline<BR>
for my version of the FFW.  I was interested in trying High Guard/<BR>
TCS (around 1981-2), so started in on designing the fleets for<BR>
the Sword Worlds and Lunion/Strouden.  I was interested in the Glisten<BR>
subsector as well, and the only thing that would keep a TL15 Pop 9<BR>
planet's fleet from crushing the Sword Worlds without working up a<BR>
sweat was to give them an opponent--so I picked on Collace.  In my <BR>
games, Collace was an Imperial client state but a sudden change of<BR>
government a few years before the FFW (just enough to build the<BR>
fleet) reversed the march toward assimilation.  Their fleet was<BR>
designed (in HG) to look like something that was put together for<BR>
efficiency as quickly as possible (only four classes of vessels,<BR>
all configuration 4--boxy partial streamlining, cheapest practical<BR>
in HG), and I worked out their surprise attack on Glisten.  Since I<BR>
didn't have a computer at the time, I had to fudge the final grinding<BR>
combat, but they took out the local SDBs with a loss of about 95% of<BR>
their fleet and intended to hold Glisten system hostage--but the<BR>
Imperial fleet wouldn't play along.  It was over fairly quickly--<BR>
about 12-15 weeks for the main part of the campaign, as I recall.<BR>
I still have the paperwork around somewhere.<BR>
<BR>
Anyway, other D268 stuff ended up reflecting that, so Binges (a tiny<BR>
planet as I recall) was accused of harboring commerce raiders...<BR>
<BR>
Rob Dean<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 23:44:38 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Hard Times (was re: Re: Stellar Data question)<BR>
<BR>
At Mon, 3 Apr 2000 23:21:44 PST shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard <BR>
Erickson) wrote:<BR>
> > And as another observation - compared to most other ships of its day,<BR>
> > the Titanic had significantly more lifeboat places as a proportion of<BR>
> > the occupants. More than legally required. But not enough.<BR>
> ><BR>
> > I find the collapse as shown in _Hard Times_ believable.<BR>
><BR>
>In a later paragraph I note that the Long Night (and probably even<BR>
>"Hard Times") fall *outside* the realm of what can be "reasonably"<BR>
>expected.<BR>
<BR>
Depends on your long term view ;-) Post Rome, the Long Night, Hard <BR>
Times. Every one to two thousand years....<BR>
<BR>
The comment on the Titanic was included because it is entirely <BR>
believable that a ship could sink completely. Indeed, said ship had <BR>
more lifeboats etc than required legally. But it wasn't enough for a <BR>
catastrophe which was predictable in the sense that ships sink. Laws <BR>
and commercial risks did not adequately allow for a man made disaster <BR>
which was reasonably expectable in the Atlantic. I was using it as an <BR>
analogy.<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 23:39:12 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Cipatwe as 'Gourmet Ghetto'<BR>
<BR>
At 17:36 -0400 4/4/00, Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com> wrote:<BR>
>Behind the Claw is either a TNE or G:T publication, so it is set<BR>
>sometime considerably after the Fifth Frontier War, which is the<BR>
>time period in which I'm writing and in which I've run games.<BR>
>Maybe something happened in the interim?<BR>
<BR>
GT Behind the Claw is 1120 which is a decade or so on from the Fifth <BR>
Frontier War.<BR>
<BR>
The TNE book is 'The Regency Sourcebook' and is set 90 or so years on.<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 23:36:41 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: re: Warrant of the Restoration<BR>
<BR>
At 17:36 -0400 4/4/00, Jason Postma <JasonP@i-link.net> wrote:<BR>
>I was very interested in a sidebar in GT: Starports that mentioned "The<BR>
>Warrant of the Restoration" as the legal source of starport's extrality<BR>
>lines.  Since it's dated 001-0000, it seems to be the document of<BR>
>incorporation for the Third Imperium.  Having recently engaged in a<BR>
>discussion about legal protections and rights for citizens of the 3I, this<BR>
>is a topic of interest to me.<BR>
><BR>
>Anyone know of other refrences to the "Warrant of the Restoration?"<BR>
<BR>
The text is in full in the T4 product Milieu 0 / Milieu 0 Campaign if <BR>
I remember correctly. It may be on the TML in the archives from when <BR>
it was developed. ISTR that it was Jeff Zeitlin who wrote it.<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 23:34:14 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: re: Ping Nick Munn<BR>
<BR>
At 17:36 -0400 4/4/00, Jeff Zeitlin <jzeitlin@cyburban.com> wrote:<BR>
>I was going through my overloaded In Box, and found some<BR>
>interesting messages. I need to pursue some of them.  The last<BR>
>address for Nick Munn that I have is N.S.Munn@sheffield.ac.uk -<BR>
>but that was in November of 1997, and he was about to change<BR>
>jobs. I don't recall having seen his name on the list recently.<BR>
>Anyone got any clues?<BR>
<BR>
Nick resigned from the University of Sheffield and now works for the <BR>
UK Civil Service. He is no longer on the TML as his real world job <BR>
intervenes. I am still in contact with him - we are gradually <BR>
creeping towards writing up his Valentine's Rose scenario from a Con <BR>
scenario (as used by BITS) to a book like SpaceDogs. He is one of the <BR>
authors of the forthcoming 101 Patrons.<BR>
<BR>
If you want anything forwarded to him please let me know.<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2000 16:08:26 -0700<BR>
From: "Kelly St.Clair" <kellys@efn.org><BR>
Subject: 10 foot ceilings (was re: Life support)<BR>
<BR>
One item snipped from this whole long thread (and may I politely suggest <BR>
that since it seems to have become a two-sided discussion/argument, the <BR>
participants should take it to private email?):<BR>
<BR>
>"10 foot ceilings" (or 3 meter ones :-) are *not* going to be at all<BR>
>common. Wastes too much space.<BR>
<BR>
But, but... 10' x 10' underground passages are Sacred Tradition!  Next <BR>
you'll be telling us we can't have wandering monsters or secret doors!<BR>
<BR>
(10 x 10 x 10, the Standard Dungeon Cube.  Not to be confused with its <BR>
Traveller equivalent, the Displacement-Ton of LHyd.)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- --------------<BR>
Kelly St.Clair    "You know, Brink, you've been acting funny ever since<BR>
kellys@efn.org     you came back from the dead.  (I can't believe I just<BR>
                    said that.)"    -- Commander Boston Low, THE DIG<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 08:09:39 +1000<BR>
From: "Katharine Whitchurch" <katts@globalfreeway.com.au><BR>
Subject: Trabant IV freighter<BR>
<BR>
> From: "Nick Bradbeer" <nickb@ndirect.co.uk><BR>
> Subject: Re: _Scandalous_ class Modified Type S (FF&S2)<BR>
> *Funded by the sale of Trabant IV Class Low Budget Packet Freighters***.<BR>
> **For non Red-Dwarf fans (shame on you) that's a Thermos flask of<BR>
> nitroglycerine, discharged from the garbage ejector.<BR>
> ***Which, on a serious note, have a higher profit margin than any other<BR>
> Traveller ship I've ever seen. www.nickb.ndirect.co.uk/tneships/ships.html<BR>
> They're actually one of the designs I'm proudest of.<BR>
<BR>
Ditzie wants to know if it's built to be so cheeeap then why why why does it<BR>
have 4 gees of compensation when the maximum number of geees it can pull it<BR>
two ?<BR>
<BR>
She also thinks that you could cut a third off the size of the power plant,<BR>
at the cost of not using the maneuver drive and jump drive at once. Becasue,<BR>
as she says, every megacwedit you saaaaave on the sticker-wicker<BR>
costie-wostie is fooour kilocwedits a month. Thats a new Jet Bike every<BR>
year.<BR>
<BR>
Although what she'd do is add about 40 MW to the power plant, and upgrade it<BR>
all to jump-2. Jump-1 small freighters have very few uses in the Third<BR>
Imperium, and what jump-1 freighters there are would tend to be TL9-11<BR>
designs (TL13 shipyards should be building jump-4 Express freighters and<BR>
Imperial Auxilary ships).<BR>
<BR>
But it's a nice design.<BR>
<BR>
Ian Whitchurch<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 08:53:12 +1000<BR>
From: "Katharine Whitchurch" <katts@globalfreeway.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re: Disparate TLs<BR>
<BR>
> From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca><BR>
<BR>
<stuff snipped><BR>
<BR>
> Even this is a gross simplification.  Exactly what is keeping a TL 5<BR>
> world from smuggling a few science texts from a TL 6 world and upping<BR>
> its own TL?  Even a poor TL 5 world could probably scrape together<BR>
> enough Imperial credits to import a little TL 6 manufacturing equipment<BR>
> assuming that the pop is high enough).  How about bringing in a few<BR>
> scientists/engineers/etc. and letting them live like kings as long as<BR>
> they help upgrade the TL?<BR>
><BR>
> I figure that low-tech worlds generally find it more efficient to<BR>
> use equipment that they understand and can maintain locally.  Having<BR>
> 5,000,000 rifles may be better than having 300,000 laser rifles,<BR>
> especially if recharging them is a problem.  I don't think that the<BR>
> TL differences are impossible to explain, only that they are no easier<BR>
> to explain than some of the other Traveller bits that we have been<BR>
> discussing.<BR>
><BR>
> Peez<BR>
<BR>
The Traveller universe as it stands can only be explained by assuming that<BR>
economic underdevelopment is not only possible, but that it is normal - that<BR>
progressing in TL and infrastructure is not a simple and easy process.<BR>
<BR>
My take on it is that each TL improvement requires (TL) years of a planets<BR>
GWP in investment, minimum, and involves disruption to the existing social<BR>
and economic structure.<BR>
<BR>
I'll use as an example industrialisation - the process of going from TL3 to<BR>
TL7.<BR>
<BR>
At TL3, you dont really need mass literacy, but to get to TL4 you need about<BR>
80% of the population to be literate. This means substantial investment in<BR>
primary schools.<BR>
<BR>
To go from TL4 to TL5, you need to repeat the process with High Schools.<BR>
<BR>
To go from TL5 to TL6, you need to repeat the process with Technical<BR>
Schools.<BR>
<BR>
To go from TL6 to TL7, you need to repeat the process with Universities.<BR>
<BR>
Now, while you are doing this, you also need to put in a transport<BR>
infrastructure - railroads, ports, sealed roads and airports.<BR>
<BR>
You also probably need to put in a health infrastructure, a power<BR>
infrastructure and so on.<BR>
<BR>
Failure in any of these fields will cripple your development effort, as<BR>
sectoral imbalances start to act as a check on industrialisation (see the<BR>
Great Leap Forward as an example of how badly things can go wrong).<BR>
<BR>
Now, a problem with all this is the position of your local ruling class.<BR>
They are presumably going fairly well from the existing structure, and<BR>
development may put this at risk, from a revolution in rising expectations<BR>
(nothing like a bunch of unemployed uni graduates to make trouble).<BR>
<BR>
A second problem is the conflict between the owners of the export industries<BR>
and those who benefit from the expansion of local industry. An obvious<BR>
example for this is the tension between the protectionist North and the<BR>
free-trade South in the pre-Civil War period of the US (similar stresses<BR>
existed in Australia between protectionist Victoria and free trade NSW, and<BR>
in Argentina between the free-trading export-oriented provinces and the<BR>
manufacturing industries of Buenos Ares in Argentina).<BR>
<BR>
If you assume that protection (and a strong state to make sure that owners<BR>
of manufacturing industries do not seek to shelter behind this protection<BR>
forever) is necessary to develop an infrastructure (why should our TL6<BR>
farmer buy an expensive locally-produced TL7 tractor when they can buy a<BR>
cheaper imported one ?), then we have two problems.<BR>
<BR>
The first is resistance from existing lo-tech export industries to paying<BR>
higher prices for their manufactured inputs (this is the process of<BR>
"scraping up enough Imperial credits"). They may well be backed up in this<BR>
by their buyers, who may well offer them support in a civil war or coup<BR>
attempt (cue megacorp-funded mercs. Note that British cotton interests<BR>
performed this role to some extent in the US Civil War).<BR>
<BR>
The second is the strong Free Trade position of the Imperium. The Imperium<BR>
is a trade empire, that generally acts in the interests of interstellar<BR>
trading interests and the existing "winners" of the Imperial system (note<BR>
Dulinor's statement about the Imperium taking a more active role in the<BR>
development of Imperial worlds). Bluntly, if you start jacking up tariffs in<BR>
order to discourage Imperial trade, then the IISS gets involved (ask<BR>
yourself - why does the Imperium need an Internal Mapping Branch ?).<BR>
<BR>
Finally, where the "islands of development" theory has been tried, it has<BR>
generally failed to spill outside the hi-tech installation (the best example<BR>
is probably the clusterfuck that is the Nigerian steel industry. Remember<BR>
that the Imperium has a higher level of corruption that is, to me,<BR>
reminiscent of Suharto if not Marcos - "bribery" is a skill that is<BR>
available to virtually every PC).<BR>
<BR>
Note that there are lots of adventuring opportunities with this, as well as<BR>
a good explaination for players asking why there are worlds with such low<BR>
TLs.<BR>
<BR>
Ian Whitchurch<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 19:13:33 -0400<BR>
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net><BR>
Subject: RE: Notes on building Heya<BR>
<BR>
Ian Ferguson said:<BR>
<BR>
>	I certainly allow TL 10 stuff on TL 5 worlds, but I would hesitate to<BR>
>	have the major industry of a TL 5 world dominated by TL 10 technology.<BR>
>	Perhaps the seed has been genetically modified, advanced fertilizers<BR>
>	and pesticides used, even a few high-tech farms, but I would expect the<BR>
>	vast majority of farms on a TL 5 world to use TL 5 equipment.<BR>
<BR>
	Genetically modified seeds and advanced fertilizers don't sound like<BR>
equipment that would be available at TL5. Is a farm with TL9 seeds a TL9<BR>
farm, or a TL5 farm? Is a TL12 tractor that is built in such a fashion that<BR>
it can be repaired by TL5 farmers a TL12 tractor, or a TL5 one? How about<BR>
devices that are not designed to be repaired or maintained, or which are<BR>
cheaper to replace than to repair?<BR>
<BR>
>	That's what TL means to me: the technology that is widely available to<BR>
>	residents of the world.  I suppose that it could be argued that certain<BR>
>	sectors of that society use TL 10 equipment for specific purposes, but<BR>
>	that level of complexity tends to invalidate the TL rating for me.  YMMV.<BR>
<BR>
	I guess my mileage does vary, for the simple reason that TL appears to be,<BR>
at least to me, a device for the GM (or worldbuilder) to use in deciding<BR>
what the planet looks like, what it feels like, and what players might be<BR>
expected to find there. Indeed, in the earliest CT discussion of Tech Level<BR>
(Book 3), it mentions that citizens on a world will likely be armed with<BR>
weapons of a given tech level, while the military may use more advanced<BR>
equipment. It is mentioned that this represents the sorts of things that the<BR>
planet can produce locally. MegaTraveller muddied the waters a bit by saying<BR>
that the Tech Level of the planet represented the tech level of the starport<BR>
and surrounding area, but other areas on the planet may have a lower tech<BR>
level.<BR>
<BR>
>	It is hard to defend the disparity in TL between nearby worlds in the<BR>
>	OTU.  Given that such disparity is accepted, one can go one of two ways:<BR>
<BR>
	From where I'm sitting, I find it very easy to defend the disparity in TL:<BR>
the tech level rating is an arbitrary and abstract rating that gives the GM,<BR>
or worldbuilder, a starting point for fleshing out the world. It further<BR>
tells the players what sort of equipment they might be able to buy there.<BR>
I'm not worried about the disparity between TLs as much as certain<BR>
intepretations of tech level which don't allow for trade between worlds, or<BR>
only allow trade between worlds in a limited fashion. The first version is<BR>
represented by Hans with his argument that worlds should only be able to<BR>
trade with worlds of a similar level of technology. The second is<BR>
represented by you, with your argument that high-tech worlds produce less<BR>
sophisticated equipment for low-tech worlds.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>	either interstellar trade does not equalize TLs (at least, not very<BR>
>	quickly), or the TLs are "soft" (Heya might have effectively TL 12<BR>
>	farms).  I go for the former.<BR>
<BR>
	Going with the former means that you have to deal with, and define, what<BR>
makes a given tech level a tech level. What makes a TL1 society TL1, and<BR>
what makes a TL5 society TL5? For example, the theory and materials<BR>
technology existed in ancient Greece, a TL1 society, to make steam engines.<BR>
If some ancient Athenian stumbled upon the steam engine, and they began<BR>
using it to power wine presses, would they be TL1, TL4, or somewhere in<BR>
between? If the Romans stumbled upon gunpowder and manufactured muskets,<BR>
would they be TL1 or TL3?<BR>
<BR>
	Let's stick with the Romans for a second, as their construction technology,<BR>
both in materials and theory, was pretty astonishing. They pioneered<BR>
construction techniques that were basically forgotten until TL4 or so. Were<BR>
these techniques TL1 techniques, or emergent TL4 techniques? If these same<BR>
techniques were used by TL4 missionaries to build a chapel in Africa<BR>
utilizing a TL1 labor pool, in the process teaching them to utilize the<BR>
techniques themselves, is this hypothetical African village TL4, or TL1?<BR>
<BR>
	Basically, if you treat TLs as hard, you face the challenge of figuring out<BR>
what the threshold between TLs actually is. Good luck. I don't envy you on<BR>
the task you've selected for yourself. :)<BR>
<BR>
	While you're doing that, I'll give be giving my own worlds their own flavor<BR>
by using the tech level listing in the Universal Planetary Profile as a<BR>
starting point. I'm not saying that my way is better, but it involves less<BR>
work on my part.<BR>
<BR>
>	IMTU, Industrial high-tech worlds do not tend to export high-tech products<BR>
to low-tech<BR>
>	worlds.  There is always some, but on Heya I would have gravetic<BR>
soil-turners and<BR>
>	robotic fruit-pickers very rare.  The lack of TL 12 support, technical<BR>
knowledge,<BR>
>	and the expense of maintenance (plus possible governmental rules) may<BR>
argue<BR>
>	against such excesses.  The TL 12 Industrial world may well export<BR>
effectively<BR>
>	TL 5 equipment to Heya (this is done to some extent between countries here<BR>
on<BR>
>	Terra).  Thus, the steam engine pulling the grain-laiden train may have<BR>
been<BR>
>	built off-planet, but it is simple to maintain and the coal/wood and water<BR>
>	are found locally.<BR>
<BR>
	I'm not even talking about gravitic soil-turners and robotic fruit-pickers<BR>
here. I'm talking about hybrid crops, advanced pesticides, improved<BR>
agricultural theory, and so on. At what point does TL5 farming become TL6?<BR>
At what point does TL4 farming become TL5? If TL4 farming becomes TL5, and<BR>
the society exports mostly agricultural products, is the society classified<BR>
as TL5? What if the industrial capability of the world is TL1, the<BR>
construction technology at TL2 and the materials technology at TL0?<BR>
<BR>
	Now, I'm not saying that the tech level rating should be broken up into<BR>
many different categories. I don't believe that would be useful. I just<BR>
think that the TL rating should be considered a springboard for whoever it<BR>
is that happens to be fleshing out a world.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 17:14:54 -0600 <BR>
From: Jason Postma <JasonP@i-link.net><BR>
Subject: RE: 10 foot ceilings (was re: Life support)<BR>
<BR>
Right.  How will the gelatinous cubans get around if the ceilings aren't 10'<BR>
tall?<BR>
<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
From: Kelly St.Clair [mailto:kellys@efn.org]<BR>
Sent: Tuesday, April 04, 2000 5:08 PM<BR>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Subject: 10 foot ceilings (was re: Life support)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
One item snipped from this whole long thread (and may I politely suggest <BR>
that since it seems to have become a two-sided discussion/argument, the <BR>
participants should take it to private email?):<BR>
<BR>
>"10 foot ceilings" (or 3 meter ones :-) are *not* going to be at all<BR>
>common. Wastes too much space.<BR>
<BR>
But, but... 10' x 10' underground passages are Sacred Tradition!  Next <BR>
you'll be telling us we can't have wandering monsters or secret doors!<BR>
<BR>
(10 x 10 x 10, the Standard Dungeon Cube.  Not to be confused with its <BR>
Traveller equivalent, the Displacement-Ton of LHyd.)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- --------------<BR>
Kelly St.Clair    "You know, Brink, you've been acting funny ever since<BR>
kellys@efn.org     you came back from the dead.  (I can't believe I just<BR>
                    said that.)"    -- Commander Boston Low, THE DIG<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 16:19:02 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
Subject: Re: 10 foot ceilings (was re: Life support)<BR>
<BR>
Kelly St.Clair writes:<BR>
<BR>
> But, but... 10' x 10' underground passages are Sacred Tradition!  Next <BR>
> you'll be telling us we can't have wandering monsters or secret doors!<BR>
> <BR>
> (10 x 10 x 10, the Standard Dungeon Cube.  Not to be confused with its <BR>
> Traveller equivalent, the Displacement-Ton of LHyd.)<BR>
<BR>
Aka 'half a standard dungeon cube'.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 19:22:08 -0400 <BR>
From: "Smith, Walter" <SmithW@hartwick.edu><BR>
Subject: TML Landgrab -- Squallia/District 268<BR>
<BR>
Minimal stellar technology, balkanized, enough population to be<BR>
interesting, right on the route that McLellan Factors would take<BR>
to get from their Mertactor base to the Sword Worlds/Darrian<BR>
markets...I think I'll take this world.<BR>
<BR>
Now to figure out the ramifications of a Very Thin atmosphere and<BR>
a hydro percentage of about 80%(?)<BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 17:32:22 -0600 <BR>
From: Jason Postma <JasonP@i-link.net><BR>
Subject: RE: Notes on building Heya<BR>
<BR>
IMO<BR>
A farm using TL 9 seeds or pesticides but TL5 equipment and techniques is a<BR>
TL5 farm.<BR>
A TL12 tractor built so that it can easily be repaired by a TL5 farmer is a<BR>
TL5 tractor, unless it has components that cannot be produced locally.<BR>
A device which is a throw-away at TL12 is TL12, even if it's used on a TL5<BR>
world.<BR>
Attempts to rationalize the disparity of randomly-generated UWPs will never<BR>
convince everyone on the TML.  Pick something that you thing reasonable and<BR>
that your players can live with.<BR>
<BR>
IMTU<BR>
Tech level is a very general guidline as to what techniques and technology<BR>
are locally produced and in general use on the world.  It's main use is when<BR>
a player wants to buy a particular piece of equipment.  If it's above the<BR>
world's tech level, he pays more, if it's at all available.<BR>
It's second use is for the GM to get a general idea of what the world looks<BR>
like - what the buildings and transportation is like, etc.<BR>
I like the idea of "broken-down" TLs, as it can get around some of the odd<BR>
UWPs, to a point, so I use them.<BR>
<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
From: Chris Seamans [mailto:semo@pil.net]<BR>
	Genetically modified seeds and advanced fertilizers don't sound like<BR>
equipment that would be available at TL5. Is a farm with TL9 seeds a TL9<BR>
farm, or a TL5 farm? Is a TL12 tractor that is built in such a fashion that<BR>
it can be repaired by TL5 farmers a TL12 tractor, or a TL5 one? How about<BR>
devices that are not designed to be repaired or maintained, or which are<BR>
cheaper to replace than to repair?<BR>
<BR>
>	That's what TL means to me: the technology that is widely available<BR>
to<BR>
>	residents of the world.  I suppose that it could be argued that<BR>
certain<BR>
>	sectors of that society use TL 10 equipment for specific purposes,<BR>
but<BR>
>	that level of complexity tends to invalidate the TL rating for me.<BR>
YMMV.<BR>
<BR>
	I guess my mileage does vary, for the simple reason that TL appears<BR>
to be,<BR>
at least to me, a device for the GM (or worldbuilder) to use in deciding<BR>
what the planet looks like, what it feels like, and what players might be<BR>
expected to find there. Indeed, in the earliest CT discussion of Tech Level<BR>
(Book 3), it mentions that citizens on a world will likely be armed with<BR>
weapons of a given tech level, while the military may use more advanced<BR>
equipment. It is mentioned that this represents the sorts of things that the<BR>
planet can produce locally. MegaTraveller muddied the waters a bit by saying<BR>
that the Tech Level of the planet represented the tech level of the starport<BR>
and surrounding area, but other areas on the planet may have a lower tech<BR>
level.<BR>
<BR>
>	It is hard to defend the disparity in TL between nearby worlds in<BR>
the<BR>
>	OTU.  Given that such disparity is accepted, one can go one of two<BR>
ways:<BR>
<BR>
	From where I'm sitting, I find it very easy to defend the disparity<BR>
in TL:<BR>
the tech level rating is an arbitrary and abstract rating that gives the GM,<BR>
or worldbuilder, a starting point for fleshing out the world. It further<BR>
tells the players what sort of equipment they might be able to buy there.<BR>
I'm not worried about the disparity between TLs as much as certain<BR>
intepretations of tech level which don't allow for trade between worlds, or<BR>
only allow trade between worlds in a limited fashion. The first version is<BR>
represented by Hans with his argument that worlds should only be able to<BR>
trade with worlds of a similar level of technology. The second is<BR>
represented by you, with your argument that high-tech worlds produce less<BR>
sophisticated equipment for low-tech worlds.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>	either interstellar trade does not equalize TLs (at least, not very<BR>
>	quickly), or the TLs are "soft" (Heya might have effectively TL 12<BR>
>	farms).  I go for the former.<BR>
<BR>
	Going with the former means that you have to deal with, and define,<BR>
what<BR>
makes a given tech level a tech level. What makes a TL1 society TL1, and<BR>
what makes a TL5 society TL5? For example, the theory and materials<BR>
technology existed in ancient Greece, a TL1 society, to make steam engines.<BR>
If some ancient Athenian stumbled upon the steam engine, and they began<BR>
using it to power wine presses, would they be TL1, TL4, or somewhere in<BR>
between? If the Romans stumbled upon gunpowder and manufactured muskets,<BR>
would they be TL1 or TL3?<BR>
<BR>
	Let's stick with the Romans for a second, as their construction<BR>
technology,<BR>
both in materials and theory, was pretty astonishing. They pioneered<BR>
construction techniques that were basically forgotten until TL4 or so. Were<BR>
these techniques TL1 techniques, or emergent TL4 techniques? If these same<BR>
techniques were used by TL4 missionaries to build a chapel in Africa<BR>
utilizing a TL1 labor pool, in the process teaching them to utilize the<BR>
techniques themselves, is this hypothetical African village TL4, or TL1?<BR>
<BR>
	Basically, if you treat TLs as hard, you face the challenge of<BR>
figuring out<BR>
what the threshold between TLs actually is. Good luck. I don't envy you on<BR>
the task you've selected for yourself. :)<BR>
<BR>
	While you're doing that, I'll give be giving my own worlds their own<BR>
flavor<BR>
by using the tech level listing in the Universal Planetary Profile as a<BR>
starting point. I'm not saying that my way is better, but it involves less<BR>
work on my part.<BR>
<BR>
>	IMTU, Industrial high-tech worlds do not tend to export high-tech<BR>
products<BR>
to low-tech<BR>
>	worlds.  There is always some, but on Heya I would have gravetic<BR>
soil-turners and<BR>
>	robotic fruit-pickers very rare.  The lack of TL 12 support,<BR>
technical<BR>
knowledge,<BR>
>	and the expense of maintenance (plus possible governmental rules)<BR>
may<BR>
argue<BR>
>	against such excesses.  The TL 12 Industrial world may well export<BR>
effectively<BR>
>	TL 5 equipment to Heya (this is done to some extent between<BR>
countries here<BR>
on<BR>
>	Terra).  Thus, the steam engine pulling the grain-laiden train may<BR>
have<BR>
been<BR>
>	built off-planet, but it is simple to maintain and the coal/wood and<BR>
water<BR>
>	are found locally.<BR>
<BR>
	I'm not even talking about gravitic soil-turners and robotic<BR>
fruit-pickers<BR>
here. I'm talking about hybrid crops, advanced pesticides, improved<BR>
agricultural theory, and so on. At what point does TL5 farming become TL6?<BR>
At what point does TL4 farming become TL5? If TL4 farming becomes TL5, and<BR>
the society exports mostly agricultural products, is the society classified<BR>
as TL5? What if the industrial capability of the world is TL1, the<BR>
construction technology at TL2 and the materials technology at TL0?<BR>
<BR>
	Now, I'm not saying that the tech level rating should be broken up<BR>
into<BR>
many different categories. I don't believe that would be useful. I just<BR>
think that the TL rating should be considered a springboard for whoever it<BR>
is that happens to be fleshing out a world.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2248<BR>
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Traveller-digest       Tuesday, April 4 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2249<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
RE: Notes on building Heya<BR>
Re: Tee En Ess<BR>
Re: 10 foot ceilings (was re: Life support)<BR>
Re: Grav mechanics(was:Re: Grav Powered Floating Cities)<BR>
RE: The Great Tech Level Debate<BR>
Farmers and output<BR>
re:  Warrant of the Restoration<BR>
RE: Notes on building Heya<BR>
RE: Tee En Ess<BR>
RE: Dave Hyphen is channelling me<BR>
RE: Filk explosion! Dulinor went to Capital<BR>
Re: Clyde<BR>
RE: Warrant of the Restoration<BR>
RE: Warrant of the Restoration<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 19:39:16 -0400<BR>
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net><BR>
Subject: RE: Notes on building Heya<BR>
<BR>
>Historically and cross-culturally on earth, farming has always<BR>
>had very low profit margins.  Every society with a large<BR>
>agricultural component has had to grapple with issues of feeding<BR>
>the farmers.  Will it be different in the Far Future?  Why and<BR>
>why not?  Or under what circumstances will it be the same and<BR>
>different?<BR>
<BR>
Ach. This sounds a lot like an exam question. I'm scared. :)<BR>
<BR>
Traditionally, agriculture has had low profit margins because it's difficult<BR>
to get the food to where you need to get it before it spoils. Obviously,<BR>
some goods spoil more slowly than other goods, and various forms of<BR>
processing can slow this process further. Contra-grav and fusion power mean<BR>
that you have very cheap and very fast transportation. Food can be<BR>
distributed on the surface of a world in *minutes*, not weeks or days. This<BR>
would allow farms to distribute foods very quickly; right off the field and<BR>
into your home in 20 minutes. Farm fresh would actually mean farm fresh.<BR>
<BR>
However, it is also likely that the agricultural business will have to<BR>
compete with other technologies. Single-cell proteins, grown in vats, would<BR>
be extremely cheap, advanced synthetic flavors could make such foods<BR>
extremely palatable. In such a situation, "real" food may become a specialty<BR>
item, or obsolete altogether, for all intents and purposes (as strange as<BR>
that sounds).<BR>
<BR>
Interstellar food transport would be aided by the same sort of technology<BR>
which is used to freeze people in low berths. If a low berth can keep<BR>
someone fresh and "alive" for 60 or 70 years (ala the Imperial who woke up<BR>
to find himself in the TNE universe), then cabbage at a week should be no<BR>
big deal. This would increase the cost, to some extent (which would be<BR>
offset by cheap fusion power), but in theory would increase the<BR>
profitability as well, since the foods could reach a wider market.<BR>
<BR>
Just some ideas.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2000 04:02:56 -0700<BR>
From: Keith Johnson <keithalanjohnson@home.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Tee En Ess<BR>
<BR>
At 12:55 PM 4/4/00 -0400, you wrote:<BR>
> ><BR>
> >>That's what I get for writing these d*mned things in my sl**p . . .<BR>
><BR>
>Another question:<BR>
><BR>
>Why hasn't the bug been fixed yet? I mean, it's just changing the location<BR>
>of the message...<BR>
<BR>
Probably because fixing the TNS isn't the only part of my job description. :)<BR>
<BR>
_________________________________________________________<BR>
Rev. Keith Johnson      /\     keith@sjgames.com<BR>
Assistant Webmaster    /()\    keithalanjohnson@home.com<BR>
Steve Jackson Games   /____\   reverendkeith@hotmail.com<BR>
<BR>
  IMTU tm++@ t4+@ tg++$ ru- ge-@ st+ pi+ he+ dr+ hi-@ zh+<BR>
_________________________________________________________ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2000 16:49:00 -0700<BR>
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: 10 foot ceilings (was re: Life support)<BR>
<BR>
Jason Postma wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> Right.  How will the gelatinous cubans get around if the ceilings aren't 10'<BR>
> tall?<BR>
<BR>
Limbo!<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Bruce Johnson<BR>
University of Arizona<BR>
College of Pharmacy<BR>
Information Technology Group<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 01:48:48 +0200<BR>
From: Jens Rydholm <jenry023@student.liu.se><BR>
Subject: Re: Grav mechanics(was:Re: Grav Powered Floating Cities)<BR>
<BR>
At 23:19 28.03.00 PST, Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
>Ok, it's like this. Gravity exerts a *force* on the city. But energy<BR>
>is force times DISTANCE MOVED. So it takes energy to *move* the city<BR>
>upwards against the force of gravity. And lowering the city<BR>
>*releases* energy.<BR>
<BR>
By your reasoning, you should be able to hold a weight in your hand<BR>
without expending energy, as long as you are not moving it. That is not<BR>
correct, I promise :-)<BR>
<BR>
You need to spend a lot of energy keeping the city in place. Spending a<BR>
bit more will raise it upwards, spending a bit less will lower it.<BR>
Spending no energy will be the equivalent of dropping the weight to the<BR>
ground. Actually reversing the gravitic engine (to gain energy somehow)<BR>
would cause the city to fall even faster than a simple dead fall.<BR>
<BR>
/Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2000 18:48:36 -0500<BR>
From: Kurt Brown <kurtbrown@home.com><BR>
Subject: RE: The Great Tech Level Debate<BR>
<BR>
For what it's worth, my view of Tech Level is as follows:<BR>
<BR>
The stated Tech Level of a particular world is the "Locally Sustainable"<BR>
tech level. If contact with the outside world were cut off tomorrow, the<BR>
stated TL is the best they could manage on their own.<BR>
<BR>
Therefore, farmers on a TL 5 world are perfectly fine driving TL 10<BR>
tractors, but if everything goes to hell or there's an embargo, once<BR>
those tractors wear out it's back to the old mule team.<BR>
<BR>
This interpretatiuon allows for "local flavor" in that you'll still have<BR>
your quaint country farms, but they'll be driving John Deere tractors,<BR>
not two-oxen teams. You can still import higher tech stuff for a fair<BR>
profit, and acquire hand-crafted leather mugs (still made locally<BR>
despite the disposable plastic variety available at the local pub) for<BR>
off world markets. Note that this does NOT mean than once you cross the<BR>
XT line at the starport you step off the sidewalk and into a mudpuddle<BR>
that the locals call a road! What it does mean is that, for a price, the<BR>
locals can enjoy comfort/convenience/productivity several levels above<BR>
what they could produce on their own.<BR>
<BR>
Think about Levi's and color TV's in early-'90's Moscow (or any other<BR>
East European country after the fall of the wall), the capital of a<BR>
country that to this day can't produce a decent automobile for<BR>
themselves, or even feed it's people reliably. If every bit of contact<BR>
with the West were cut off today, they could make TV's. . .just not good<BR>
ones. They could make jeans. . .but they'd fall apart in a hard rain.<BR>
And eventually they might be able to duplicate the advances of the West,<BR>
but it would take a LONG time.<BR>
<BR>
Okay, so I rambled a bit. Hopefully, this interpretation will help clear<BR>
things up a bit. If not. . hey, I tried! :)<BR>
<BR>
Kurt Brown<BR>
<BR>
tc+@, ru+, ge, 3i, st--, he+, so++<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 01:54:53 +0200 (MET DST)<BR>
From: Tommy Grav <tommy.grav@astro.uio.no><BR>
Subject: Farmers and output<BR>
<BR>
Just to throw some canon answers onto the bonfire<BR>
<BR>
According to World Tamers Handbook (TNE) a TL5 farmer<BR>
is able to produce food for 12 people as a base. Bye <BR>
using more resources this can be risen by a factor <BR>
of 1.25 to 15. Assuming best case richness in land<BR>
this is multiplied by 150 for a value of 2250 people.<BR>
This again is adjusted for monthly factors.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Tommy Grav<BR>
- -------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
tommy.grav@astro.uio.no     http://www.uio.no/~tommygr/  <BR>
Institute of Astrophysics, UiO, No  <BR>
IMTU tn++t4+tg+ ru+ge++ !3i jt+au+st+ls hi++dr-so++zh-sy-sw++ <BR>
 <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 17:01:46 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: re:  Warrant of the Restoration<BR>
<BR>
>From: Jason Postma <JasonP@i-link.net><BR>
<BR>
>I was very interested in a sidebar in GT: Starports that <BR>
>mentioned "The Warrant of the Restoration" as the legal source <BR>
>of starport's extrality lines.  Since it's dated 001-0000, it <BR>
>seems to be the document of incorporation for the Third <BR>
>Imperium.  <BR>
<BR>
That's exactly what it is.  It seems to me that the TML passed<BR>
drafts of it back and forth for a while and Marc took what he<BR>
liked.  That was for T4, not G:T.  <BR>
<BR>
In my Traveller universe (and probably in the OTU as well), the<BR>
Warrant of Restoration, notwithstanding its actual text, is<BR>
really just an announcement that Cleon Zhunastu is now the<BR>
Emperor, the Imperium claims all territories of the former Grand<BR>
Empire of the Stars and its successor The Rule of Man, and<BR>
please join voluntarily as it will save us ammunition and you'll<BR>
get to join in the spoils of conquest.  <BR>
<BR>
By 1100, it's not an operative document, having been superceded<BR>
by edicts, customs, administrative regulations, membership<BR>
treaties, etc.  It's still a very important icon, however.  (In<BR>
my Traveller universe; your mileage etc.)<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.<BR>
http://im.yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 20:13:11 -0400<BR>
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net><BR>
Subject: RE: Notes on building Heya<BR>
<BR>
Jason Postma said:<BR>
<BR>
>A farm using TL 9 seeds or pesticides but TL5 equipment and techniques is a<BR>
TL5 farm.<BR>
<BR>
Argh! TL9 seeds, pesticides and fertilizer are all examples of TL9<BR>
equipment, contrary to the belief that people seem to have that equipment<BR>
means machinery. A lot of the same kind of machines are in use today that<BR>
were in use during the 30s or so (pre WWII, TL5). TL7/8 hybrids, irrigation<BR>
techniques, pesticides and fertilizers are what actually make the<BR>
difference.<BR>
<BR>
>A TL12 tractor built so that it can easily be repaired by a TL5 farmer is a<BR>
>TL5 tractor, unless it has components that cannot be produced locally.<BR>
<BR>
In a sense, that says very little, though. Not that I have an argument with<BR>
saying little. However, an agricultural world, with little or no industrial<BR>
capability is at what tech level? By that logic, if a world doesn't make any<BR>
machines at all, and no machine parts are produced locally, the world is<BR>
TL0. Am I understanding you correctly?<BR>
<BR>
>A device which is a throw-away at TL12 is TL12, even if it's used on a TL5<BR>
>world.<BR>
<BR>
The question is: Does a TL5 society that uses disposable TL12 devices become<BR>
TL12, or is it TL5? Can one expect to find, say, wooden carts with cheap<BR>
contragrav units being pulled by horses (or miniphants)?<BR>
<BR>
Currently, there is a group that is donating radios, powered by a clockwork<BR>
mechanism, to a variety of low-tech societies in Africa and elsewhere. These<BR>
are TL7/TL8 devices. Is a TL0 hunter/gardener, or hunter/gatherer tribe that<BR>
uses these (perhaps to get weather forecasts, which would aid them<BR>
immensely), what TL are they?<BR>
<BR>
>Attempts to rationalize the disparity of randomly-generated UWPs will never<BR>
>convince everyone on the TML.<BR>
<BR>
1.) I'm not trying to rationalize the disparity of randomly-generated UWPs.<BR>
2.) I'm not trying to convince people of anything of that<BR>
<BR>
What I am saying is that I strongly disagree with Hans, who says that<BR>
societies only sell their manufactured goods to worlds with similar TLs,<BR>
which strikes me as odd and unrealistic. I also disagree with Ian, who says<BR>
that high-tech societies, for the most part, "build-down" to low-tech<BR>
societies.<BR>
<BR>
>Pick something that you thing reasonable and that your players can live<BR>
with.<BR>
<BR>
That's what I usually do. However, this is the Traveller Mailing List. It's<BR>
for the *discussion* of Traveller. :)<BR>
<BR>
P.S. Jason, our previous discussion (concerning 3I society vs. 20th century<BR>
America) just seemed to end. I was waiting for a response on the list, but I<BR>
never saw one. I switched email programs, and I think I may have lost a day<BR>
or two in the process. Due to a family emergency, I kind of forgot about the<BR>
discussion. Do you remember where we were at (or, if you were the last to<BR>
post to the list, could you send the most recent message in private so I can<BR>
respond on the list?).<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 12:23:17 +1200<BR>
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: Tee En Ess<BR>
<BR>
> On Behalf Of Glenn Goffin<BR>
> From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
><BR>
> >What would help *everyone* is a program that knows about the x-<BR>
> >boat routes and can "roll" for travel times to/from the routes<BR>
> >for worlds not on them. Input a world and a date, and it can<BR>
> >tell you when the word of that "event" reaches any other world<BR>
> >you specify.<BR>
><BR>
> *I'm* with *Leonard* on *this* idea, even if I feel *compelled*<BR>
> to make fun of his *use* of *asterisks.*  (*Actually*, the first<BR>
> paragraph of his post only contains *one* asterisk, *but* I've<BR>
> been noticing them so much lately that I *had* to mention them.)<BR>
><BR>
> Anyway, this is something that I've thought about in an abstract<BR>
> way, but never gotten off my butt to attempt.  It would also be<BR>
> a good tool for interstellar wargaming, particularly a<BR>
> multiplayer game (even, or maybe better, an email multiplayer<BR>
> game).  Each side has a hierarchy of admirals and they send<BR>
> their information to the referee, who resolves what happens<BR>
> sends word back to the senior admiral.  This would capture the<BR>
> loneliness of fleet actions and the frustration of time delay.<BR>
> Maybe I'll work on it *this summer,* but *not* as computer<BR>
> program, because I've *forgotten* everything I ever knew about<BR>
> *Fortran.*<BR>
<BR>
Glenn, you give me the algorthms and processes, I'll write them in Java, and<BR>
just to keep Leonard and his ancient machines happy I'll see about porting<BR>
the Java to C++ and compiling a dos exe. If I can still find my archive of<BR>
DOS C++ compilers somewhere.<BR>
<BR>
Frankie<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2000 17:30:25 -0700<BR>
From: Jesse DeGraff <jdegraff@pacbell.net><BR>
Subject: RE: Dave Hyphen is channelling me<BR>
<BR>
If it's weapons you're worried about, I can definately oblige ya' :)  I've<BR>
got the following airsoft guns (i.e. these ARE **NOT** FIREARMS) that make<BR>
good stand-ins for the photos:<BR>
1.Black, flattop Steyr AUG with Bushnell Holosight on it.  The original ACR<BR>
:)<BR>
2.HK Mk23 SOCOM pistol in a thigh drop holster.  Makes a great gauss pistol.<BR>
3.HK PDW smg.  Just that, a great SMG.  Each might be able to be made up a<BR>
bit to look further away from their namesakes.<BR>
<BR>
Mayhaps I'll have other goodies by then, but we'll just have to wait and see<BR>
on that account.<BR>
<BR>
Best,<BR>
Jesse<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Douglas E.<BR>
> Berry<BR>
> Sent: Tuesday, April 04, 2000 1:27 AM<BR>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> Subject: Re: Dave Hyphen is channelling me<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> At 11:42 AM 4/4/2000 +0200, you wrote:<BR>
> >Douglas E. Berry wrote:<BR>
> >> Wait until you see the Imperial Army uniform I'm going to have<BR>
> at BayCon.<BR>
> ><BR>
> >Please, take a picture or five and post on a webpage somewhere.<BR>
> Preferrably<BR>
> >with some kind of weapon (fake or real as you see fit) in your hands.<BR>
> >Perhaps with some kind of nice background...<BR>
><BR>
> The uniform is a set of Army "slops" (basic utility uniform.) I<BR>
> didn't have<BR>
> the budget this year to do a set of full dress, and since somebody hasn't<BR>
> gotten around to the amrmor yet..<BR>
><BR>
> It's a very simple uniform, since I'm going to be doing panels and hosting<BR>
> the Srephon's Jubilee Party in it.  Gray Federal short-sleeved BDU shirt,<BR>
> black BDU pants, boots, black beret.  Had custom name tags made reading<BR>
> IMPERIAL ARMY and BERRY.  Have a few other bells and whistles.<BR>
><BR>
> Lots of pictures will be taken.<BR>
><BR>
> --<BR>
><BR>
> Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
> http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2000 17:50:42 -0700<BR>
From: Jesse DeGraff <jdegraff@pacbell.net><BR>
Subject: RE: Filk explosion! Dulinor went to Capital<BR>
<BR>
I'll be there of course.  Haven't missed a BayCon in at least 5 years....I<BR>
think :\  Memory's goin' to crap.<BR>
Jesse<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Douglas E.<BR>
> Berry<BR>
> Sent: Tuesday, April 04, 2000 1:29 AM<BR>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> Subject: RE: Filk explosion! Dulinor went to Capital<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> At 04:41 PM 4/3/2000 -0700, you wrote:<BR>
> >Is there anywhere online that one can purchase recordings of these songs?<BR>
> >"Christian", what little I saw about it's mention here on the TML, sounds<BR>
> >incredible.<BR>
><BR>
> Jesse, Come to BayCon and we'll hit the filk tables together.  As it is, I<BR>
> have the Challenger Memorial on tape.<BR>
> --<BR>
><BR>
> Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
> http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 12:58:14 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Clyde<BR>
<BR>
On 2 Apr 00, at 15:51, GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> In a message dated 00-04-02 00:49:17 EST, you write:<BR>
> <BR>
> << Wasn't Clyde the name of one of the ghosts on Pacman??<BR>
>   >><BR>
> <BR>
> Also the name of A-hab the Ay-rab's camel (in the words of the old song).<BR>
<BR>
Thankyou very much. Now I'll have that darned song rattling around my <BR>
head all day. "And into the tent he went."<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
An pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 13:08:09 +1200<BR>
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: Warrant of the Restoration<BR>
<BR>
>On Behalf Of Jason Postma<BR>
> I was very interested in a sidebar in GT: Starports that mentioned "The<BR>
> Warrant of the Restoration" as the legal source of starport's extrality<BR>
> lines.  Since it's dated 001-0000, it seems to be the document of<BR>
> incorporation for the Third Imperium.  Having recently engaged in a<BR>
> discussion about legal protections and rights for citizens of the 3I, this<BR>
> is a topic of interest to me.<BR>
><BR>
> Anyone know of other refrences to the "Warrant of the Restoration?"<BR>
<BR>
The best is in T4's Milieu 0.<BR>
<BR>
Article VII is the one that establishes the extrality of starports<BR>
<BR>
Here's the library entry :<BR>
<BR>
The Warrant of Restoration<BR>
<BR>
When Cleon Zhunastu formed the Third Imperium, he was actually reviving the<BR>
First and Second Imperiums, and therefore laying claim to the many thousands<BR>
of worlds which made up those earlier entities. What follows is the text of<BR>
the Imperial Constitution, including the Preamble, or "Warrant for the<BR>
Restoration of the Imperium."<BR>
<BR>
Preamble-The Warrant of Restoration of the lmperium :<BR>
<BR>
The worlds of the universe lie separated by the vastness of space, each<BR>
alone, and dependent upon its own resources. In the past, a greater<BR>
community of worlds has existed, promoting a greater good for all its<BR>
members, and for all those who have interacted with it. The time has now<BR>
come to reestablish that greater community.<BR>
On the foundations of the past, in order to promote :<BR>
		Safe travel among the stars,<BR>
		The exploration of worlds circling those stars,<BR>
		The pursuit of knowledge,<BR>
		Mutually profitable trade and commerce,<BR>
		The active exchange of information and tech nology,<BR>
		The individual pursuit of personal betterment,<BR>
		And the collective pursuit of community good,<BR>
we hereby reestablish the Grand Empire of the Stars.<BR>
<BR>
Article   I  Imperial Governance Membership, Citizenship:<BR>
<BR>
 The Imperium shall exercise no direct governance over any member world.<BR>
Instead, the purpose of the Imperium shall be to provide for the defense of<BR>
all of the member worlds as a group, and to bring the rule of law to the<BR>
spaces between worlds. No interference with local law or custom is<BR>
contemplated, except where such local law or custom is in conflict with<BR>
Imperial law.<BR>
Any world may, through a recognized representative, proclaim allegiance to<BR>
the Imperium, and in so doing, such world shall become a member of the<BR>
Imperium, equal in status to all other members of the Imperium. Member<BR>
worlds shall govern themselves as they see proper, pro- vided that such<BR>
government does not violate Imperial laws.<BR>
The Imperium reserves to itself the power to create as it sees fit<BR>
governmental entities superior to the member worlds but subordinate to the<BR>
Imperium. This shall include the power to abolish said entities as the<BR>
Imperium sees fit. The Imperium reserves to itself the power to create as it<BR>
sees fit bureaus and agencies to carry out and enforce the Imperial will.<BR>
This shall include the power to abolish said bureaus and agencies as the<BR>
Imperium sees fit.<BR>
The Imperium considers as citizens any living recognized sentient creature<BR>
native to or naturalized by a member world of the Imperium, or any living<BR>
recognized sentient creature swearing fealty to the Imperium directly. No<BR>
immunity, protection, right, or privilege granted by the Imperium to a<BR>
citizen of the Imperium may be abridged or denied by any member world.<BR>
<BR>
Article lI - The Emperor, Hereditary Succession:<BR>
<BR>
The Powers of the lmperium shall be vested in an Emperor, who shall maintain<BR>
that title and those powers until his death or voluntary abdication. Upon<BR>
such death or abdication, the title and powers shall pass to the oldest<BR>
child of the Emperor, whether by birth or by adoption, provided that the<BR>
child shall have been publicly acknowledged as the rightful heir of the<BR>
Emperor by the Emperor, and providing that there are no conditions which<BR>
would disqualify the child as fit to maintain the Powers of the lmperium.<BR>
<BR>
Article lII - The Moot, Nobility:<BR>
<BR>
The recognized nobles of the lmperium shall provide their advice and counsel<BR>
to the Emperor prior to any legislation or action by the Emperor. The<BR>
recognized nobles, acting in this capacity, shall be designated as "the<BR>
Imperial Moot." The Imperial Moot shall have two powers over the Emperor:<BR>
They shall have the power to declare the dissolution of the lmperium, and<BR>
they shall have the power to disqualify an Imperial Heir Apparent from<BR>
ascending to the Imperial Power. However, the latter power shall only be<BR>
exercised for just and proper cause. If the Emperor dies or abdicates having<BR>
provided no heirs either by blood or by adoption, or if no heir of the<BR>
Emperor is found fit to maintain the Powers of the lmperium, the Moot shall<BR>
have the power to designate the next recipient of the Imperial Powers.<BR>
Should the Moot find it necessary to exercise this power, the designee shall<BR>
be a citizen of the lmperium.<BR>
A recognized noble of the lmperium shall be a citizen granted a noble title<BR>
(by the Emperor or by one empow- ered by the Emperor to grant noble titles).<BR>
Noble titles granted by member worlds may be recognized by the lmperium on a<BR>
case-by-case basis.<BR>
<BR>
Article IV-Free Trade:<BR>
<BR>
The lmperium shall support free trade among its members. No member shall<BR>
engage in piracy or smuggling, nor allow its territory to be used for piracy<BR>
or smuggling, nor shall it issue letters of marque or reprisal or other<BR>
permission for ships operating within its territory to engage in piracy or<BR>
smuggling.<BR>
<BR>
Article V-Standards.<BR>
<BR>
 The Imperium shall conduct all of its activities according to the Imperial<BR>
Calendar, which shall consist of a year made up of 365 (three hundred and<BR>
sixty five) consecutive Days of 24 (twenty four) consecutive hours each. The<BR>
Days shall be numbered 1 (one) to 365 (three hundred and sixty five) in<BR>
order. The day that this Charter shall become effective shall be designated<BR>
Day 1 of Year 0 on the Imperial Calendar. Day 1 of any year on the Imperial<BR>
Calendar (henceforth "Imperial Year') shall be designated as an Imperial<BR>
Holiday, named Holiday.<BR>
The unit of exchange in interstellar commerce, and between the Imperium and<BR>
the member worlds, shall be the Imperial Credit. The Imperial Credit shall<BR>
be valued independently of the value of any coin, currency, or value of any<BR>
member world. The Imperium shall have the responsibility and power to<BR>
control the value of the Imperial Credit.<BR>
The Imperium shall use as its standard of measurement the presently accepted<BR>
standard measures and nomenclature used by the Sylean Federation. These<BR>
standards shall be designated the Standard Imperial (S1) Measurement System.<BR>
<BR>
Article VI-Slavery Prohibited<BR>
<BR>
 Chattel slavery shall not exist within the Imperium, nor in any territory<BR>
directly under its control, nor on any member world, nor within any<BR>
territory with which a member world shall have dealings.<BR>
<BR>
Article VII-Extra-territoriality of Designated Imperial Possessions<BR>
<BR>
 The governance and operation of starports or other territories ceded to<BR>
Imperial use is reserved to the Imperium. Movement of material and sentients<BR>
between such territories and the member world shall be controlled by the<BR>
member world, subject to Imperial laws governing such movement. Such<BR>
territory shall be excluded from the jurisdiction of any member world, and<BR>
no material or sentients shall enter such territories from any member world<BR>
without the express consent of the governing Imperial authorities<BR>
responsible for such territory.<BR>
<BR>
Article VIll-Acknowledgment of Imperial Power<BR>
<BR>
 Notwithstanding any provisions to the contrary contained in this document<BR>
or in subsequent Imperial actions, the Imperium, for the purpose of ensuring<BR>
its continued safety and stability, reserves to itself the power to<BR>
unilaterally enact changes in any or all aspects of the relationship between<BR>
itself and any member world or citizen.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 13:08:09 +1200<BR>
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: Warrant of the Restoration<BR>
<BR>
>On Behalf Of Jason Postma<BR>
> I was very interested in a sidebar in GT: Starports that mentioned "The<BR>
> Warrant of the Restoration" as the legal source of starport's extrality<BR>
> lines.  Since it's dated 001-0000, it seems to be the document of<BR>
> incorporation for the Third Imperium.  Having recently engaged in a<BR>
> discussion about legal protections and rights for citizens of the 3I, this<BR>
> is a topic of interest to me.<BR>
><BR>
> Anyone know of other refrences to the "Warrant of the Restoration?"<BR>
<BR>
The best is in T4's Milieu 0.<BR>
<BR>
Article VII is the one that establishes the extrality of starports<BR>
<BR>
Here's the library entry :<BR>
<BR>
The Warrant of Restoration<BR>
<BR>
When Cleon Zhunastu formed the Third Imperium, he was actually reviving the<BR>
First and Second Imperiums, and therefore laying claim to the many thousands<BR>
of worlds which made up those earlier entities. What follows is the text of<BR>
the Imperial Constitution, including the Preamble, or "Warrant for the<BR>
Restoration of the Imperium."<BR>
<BR>
Preamble-The Warrant of Restoration of the lmperium :<BR>
<BR>
The worlds of the universe lie separated by the vastness of space, each<BR>
alone, and dependent upon its own resources. In the past, a greater<BR>
community of worlds has existed, promoting a greater good for all its<BR>
members, and for all those who have interacted with it. The time has now<BR>
come to reestablish that greater community.<BR>
On the foundations of the past, in order to promote :<BR>
		Safe travel among the stars,<BR>
		The exploration of worlds circling those stars,<BR>
		The pursuit of knowledge,<BR>
		Mutually profitable trade and commerce,<BR>
		The active exchange of information and tech nology,<BR>
		The individual pursuit of personal betterment,<BR>
		And the collective pursuit of community good,<BR>
we hereby reestablish the Grand Empire of the Stars.<BR>
<BR>
Article   I  Imperial Governance Membership, Citizenship:<BR>
<BR>
 The Imperium shall exercise no direct governance over any member world.<BR>
Instead, the purpose of the Imperium shall be to provide for the defense of<BR>
all of the member worlds as a group, and to bring the rule of law to the<BR>
spaces between worlds. No interference with local law or custom is<BR>
contemplated, except where such local law or custom is in conflict with<BR>
Imperial law.<BR>
Any world may, through a recognized representative, proclaim allegiance to<BR>
the Imperium, and in so doing, such world shall become a member of the<BR>
Imperium, equal in status to all other members of the Imperium. Member<BR>
worlds shall govern themselves as they see proper, pro- vided that such<BR>
government does not violate Imperial laws.<BR>
The Imperium reserves to itself the power to create as it sees fit<BR>
governmental entities superior to the member worlds but subordinate to the<BR>
Imperium. This shall include the power to abolish said entities as the<BR>
Imperium sees fit. The Imperium reserves to itself the power to create as it<BR>
sees fit bureaus and agencies to carry out and enforce the Imperial will.<BR>
This shall include the power to abolish said bureaus and agencies as the<BR>
Imperium sees fit.<BR>
The Imperium considers as citizens any living recognized sentient creature<BR>
native to or naturalized by a member world of the Imperium, or any living<BR>
recognized sentient creature swearing fealty to the Imperium directly. No<BR>
immunity, protection, right, or privilege granted by the Imperium to a<BR>
citizen of the Imperium may be abridged or denied by any member world.<BR>
<BR>
Article lI - The Emperor, Hereditary Succession:<BR>
<BR>
The Powers of the lmperium shall be vested in an Emperor, who shall maintain<BR>
that title and those powers until his death or voluntary abdication. Upon<BR>
such death or abdication, the title and powers shall pass to the oldest<BR>
child of the Emperor, whether by birth or by adoption, provided that the<BR>
child shall have been publicly acknowledged as the rightful heir of the<BR>
Emperor by the Emperor, and providing that there are no conditions which<BR>
would disqualify the child as fit to maintain the Powers of the lmperium.<BR>
<BR>
Article lII - The Moot, Nobility:<BR>
<BR>
The recognized nobles of the lmperium shall provide their advice and counsel<BR>
to the Emperor prior to any legislation or action by the Emperor. The<BR>
recognized nobles, acting in this capacity, shall be designated as "the<BR>
Imperial Moot." The Imperial Moot shall have two powers over the Emperor:<BR>
They shall have the power to declare the dissolution of the lmperium, and<BR>
they shall have the power to disqualify an Imperial Heir Apparent from<BR>
ascending to the Imperial Power. However, the latter power shall only be<BR>
exercised for just and proper cause. If the Emperor dies or abdicates having<BR>
provided no heirs either by blood or by adoption, or if no heir of the<BR>
Emperor is found fit to maintain the Powers of the lmperium, the Moot shall<BR>
have the power to designate the next recipient of the Imperial Powers.<BR>
Should the Moot find it necessary to exercise this power, the designee shall<BR>
be a citizen of the lmperium.<BR>
A recognized noble of the lmperium shall be a citizen granted a noble title<BR>
(by the Emperor or by one empow- ered by the Emperor to grant noble titles).<BR>
Noble titles granted by member worlds may be recognized by the lmperium on a<BR>
case-by-case basis.<BR>
<BR>
Article IV-Free Trade:<BR>
<BR>
The lmperium shall support free trade among its members. No member shall<BR>
engage in piracy or smuggling, nor allow its territory to be used for piracy<BR>
or smuggling, nor shall it issue letters of marque or reprisal or other<BR>
permission for ships operating within its territory to engage in piracy or<BR>
smuggling.<BR>
<BR>
Article V-Standards.<BR>
<BR>
 The Imperium shall conduct all of its activities according to the Imperial<BR>
Calendar, which shall consist of a year made up of 365 (three hundred and<BR>
sixty five) consecutive Days of 24 (twenty four) consecutive hours each. The<BR>
Days shall be numbered 1 (one) to 365 (three hundred and sixty five) in<BR>
order. The day that this Charter shall become effective shall be designated<BR>
Day 1 of Year 0 on the Imperial Calendar. Day 1 of any year on the Imperial<BR>
Calendar (henceforth "Imperial Year') shall be designated as an Imperial<BR>
Holiday, named Holiday.<BR>
The unit of exchange in interstellar commerce, and between the Imperium and<BR>
the member worlds, shall be the Imperial Credit. The Imperial Credit shall<BR>
be valued independently of the value of any coin, currency, or value of any<BR>
member world. The Imperium shall have the responsibility and power to<BR>
control the value of the Imperial Credit.<BR>
The Imperium shall use as its standard of measurement the presently accepted<BR>
standard measures and nomenclature used by the Sylean Federation. These<BR>
standards shall be designated the Standard Imperial (S1) Measurement System.<BR>
<BR>
Article VI-Slavery Prohibited<BR>
<BR>
 Chattel slavery shall not exist within the Imperium, nor in any territory<BR>
directly under its control, nor on any member world, nor within any<BR>
territory with which a member world shall have dealings.<BR>
<BR>
Article VII-Extra-territoriality of Designated Imperial Possessions<BR>
<BR>
 The governance and operation of starports or other territories ceded to<BR>
Imperial use is reserved to the Imperium. Movement of material and sentients<BR>
between such territories and the member world shall be controlled by the<BR>
member world, subject to Imperial laws governing such movement. Such<BR>
territory shall be excluded from the jurisdiction of any member world, and<BR>
no material or sentients shall enter such territories from any member world<BR>
without the express consent of the governing Imperial authorities<BR>
responsible for such territory.<BR>
<BR>
Article VIll-Acknowledgment of Imperial Power<BR>
<BR>
 Notwithstanding any provisions to the contrary contained in this document<BR>
or in subsequent Imperial actions, the Imperium, for the purpose of ensuring<BR>
its continued safety and stability, reserves to itself the power to<BR>
unilaterally enact changes in any or all aspects of the relationship between<BR>
itself and any member world or citizen.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2249<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2250</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
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Traveller-digest      Wednesday, April 5 2000      Volume 1999 : Number 2250<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
RE: Notes on building Heya<BR>
Re: Grav mechanics(was:Re: Grav Powered Floating Cities)<BR>
GT-Q: Ground Penetrating Radar and other toys<BR>
Re: WANTED: GT Size Specs for Common Small Ships<BR>
Re: Stellar Data question..<BR>
Re: New Madrid Fault<BR>
RE: Warrant of the Restoration<BR>
Re: GT-Q: Ground Penetrating Radar and other toys<BR>
The Landgrab: Regina/ Regina<BR>
Re: Life on the Edge<BR>
Re: Life on the Edge<BR>
Re: The Landgrab: Regina/ Regina<BR>
Re: Tee En Ess<BR>
RE: Filk explosion! Dulinor went to Capital<BR>
Re: Disparate TLs<BR>
Re: Stories in the printed copy of New Scientist which relate toTraveller<BR>
RE: Filk explosion! Dulinor went to Capital<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 03:37:08 CEST<BR>
From: "Patrik Holmstrm" <glappkaeft@hotmail.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Notes on building Heya<BR>
<BR>
>Genetically modified seeds and advanced fertilizers don't sound like<BR>
>equipment that would be available at TL5. Is a farm with TL9 seeds a >TL9 <BR>
>farm, or a TL5 farm?<BR>
<BR>
I would say that most vegetables I know of would be TL0 technology as they <BR>
are very easy to produce (and that is easy as in "pop one or it's seed into <BR>
the ground and you get many more") if you have the right conditions. If an <BR>
Ancient potato modified with TL25+ technology could be grown just like an <BR>
ordinary potato, just more efficient, then nothing would stop a TL5 farmer <BR>
from growing them in his fields. You could of course modify/treat them so <BR>
that they can't be used to grow new plant (IIRC this was done with kiwi <BR>
fruits).<BR>
<BR>
>Let's stick with the Romans for a second, as their construction <BR>
> >technology, both in materials and theory, was pretty astonishing. >They <BR>
>pioneered construction techniques that were basically forgotten >until TL4 <BR>
>or so. Were these techniques TL1 techniques, or emergent >TL4 techniques? <BR>
>If these same techniques were used by TL4 >missionaries to build a chapel <BR>
>in Africa utilizing a TL1 labor pool, >in the process teaching them to <BR>
>utilize the techniques themselves, >is this hypothetical African village <BR>
>TL4, or TL1?<BR>
<BR>
IMHO science, techniques, ideas etc are can never be tied to a specific TL. <BR>
IMTU there exists steam engines, muskets and other things that are possible <BR>
to come up with at lower TL than historical Terra did (and FFS do). This is <BR>
however more of a problem at low tech levels than at say TL10+ (there are of <BR>
course canonical references of the opposite for instance Solomani grav <BR>
tech).<BR>
<BR>
>I just think that the TL rating should be considered a springboard >for <BR>
>whoever it is that happens to be fleshing out a world.<BR>
<BR>
Yeah, youre definitely right about that. If think I'll stop here and get <BR>
some sleep.<BR>
<BR>
ObTrav<BR>
Could there be a market for geneered one shot plants on the 3I?<BR>
<BR>
Patrik Holmstrm<BR>
______________________________________________________<BR>
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 20:22:37 -0500<BR>
From: Bolie Williams IV <bolie@io.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Grav mechanics(was:Re: Grav Powered Floating Cities)<BR>
<BR>
At 1:48 AM +0200 4/5/2000, Jens Rydholm wrote:<BR>
>At 23:19 28.03.00 PST, Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
>>Ok, it's like this. Gravity exerts a *force* on the city. But energy<BR>
>>is force times DISTANCE MOVED. So it takes energy to *move* the city<BR>
>>upwards against the force of gravity. And lowering the city<BR>
>>*releases* energy.<BR>
><BR>
>By your reasoning, you should be able to hold a weight in your hand<BR>
>without expending energy, as long as you are not moving it. That is not<BR>
>correct, I promise :-)<BR>
><BR>
>You need to spend a lot of energy keeping the city in place. Spending a<BR>
>bit more will raise it upwards, spending a bit less will lower it.<BR>
>Spending no energy will be the equivalent of dropping the weight to the<BR>
>ground. Actually reversing the gravitic engine (to gain energy somehow)<BR>
>would cause the city to fall even faster than a simple dead fall.<BR>
<BR>
Actually, this is false.  You have to expend energy to hold something up<BR>
because of the way your muscles work.  Holding the city in place is the<BR>
equivalent of letting it sit on a table.  You are doing no work because<BR>
you are not changing anything.  An object's mechanical energy is the<BR>
sum of it's kinetic and potential energy.  The kinetic energy equals<BR>
half of the mass times the square of the velocity.  The velocity of a<BR>
non-moving city is zero, so the kinetic energy is zero.  The potential<BR>
energy is the height times the force of gravity.  If the city is not<BR>
moving, the potential energy doesn't change.  Since no energy enters<BR>
or leaves the city, there is no energy spent.  This assumes that your<BR>
method of generating force doesn't require energy as a by-product,<BR>
such as a reaction engine which generates force by accelerating mass<BR>
in the opposite direction.  It's not known how contragravity works,<BR>
so it's entirely possible that the only energy required to hold a city<BR>
up is losses due to entropy, which could be relatively small compared<BR>
to the energy required to move the city to its height in the first<BR>
place.<BR>
<BR>
Bolie IV<BR>
- -- <BR>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<BR>
Bolie Williams IV<BR>
bolie@io.com<BR>
http://www.io.com/~bolie/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 22:18:03 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
From: Dalton Spence <dalton.spence@hwcn.org><BR>
Subject: GT-Q: Ground Penetrating Radar and other toys<BR>
<BR>
I've been kicking around some GT related vehicle ideas and I need<BR>
some advice.<BR>
<BR>
1.) I would like to include Ground Penetrating Radar as a sensor on<BR>
    some TL8 earth moving equipment I'm designing with GURPS<BR>
    Vehicles. (No more cut phone cables or busted water mains.) I<BR>
    heard a buried city was redisovered using such a device, and<BR>
    I've seen one used on TV to detect buried objects. This is the<BR>
    lower-tech alternative to the Densitometer (GT p.113).<BR>
<BR>
    a - Should I consider this a limitation like Ground/Air Search<BR>
        or No-Targeting options, an enhancement like Lo- or Hi-Res<BR>
        Imaging. or both?<BR>
    b - While I need specs for this as a component, how would this<BR>
        option affect the price/use of Mini and Backpack Radars<BR>
        (GURPS Space p.69) as gadgets?<BR>
    c - BTW, can an Imaging Radar also be No-Targeting?<BR>
<BR>
2.) I've also designed a Traveller equivalent of the infamous Soviet<BR>
    "fishing" trawler whose cold war catch-of-the-day was electronic<BR>
    intelligence. Rather than build a completely new ship, I decided<BR>
    to refit a common existing design with SOTA technology. To allow<BR>
    it to shadow ships and worlds undetected, I'm replacing its<BR>
    Basic TL10 Stealth with Radical TL12 changing the ship's -6 ASig<BR>
    modifier to -16.<BR>
<BR>
    a - Can I use a blip enhance (VE p.60) to hide that a common<BR>
        vehicle has been given improved stealth?, (I will need an<BR>
        *improved* model that increases the ASig by +10, not +4.)<BR>
    b - Would such a Stealth upgrade be visible optically?<BR>
    c - Since I'm also improving Emissions Cloaking, is there a<BR>
        similar device that can spoof a PESA? Or a radscanner?<BR>
<BR>
3.) I'm also concealing several other upgrades: the bridge, the<BR>
    maneuver drive and the weapon systems.<BR>
<BR>
    a - Does disguising TL12 equipment as TL10 cost anything?<BR>
    b - Could the bridge computers run an emulation program that<BR>
        could convert TL10 operations skill into TL12 without<BR>
        penalty? What should such a program cost?<BR>
    c - The reduced volume of the manuever drive will be disguised<BR>
        with a hidden cargo hold [VE p.15] costing MCr0.01 per dton.<BR>
        Does the penalty to a searcher's Holdout skill also apply to<BR>
        high tech sensor rolls?<BR>
<BR>
4.) According to the Traveller Mailing List FAQ question number 5.2,<BR>
    "All ships have chameleon skins according to the SOM, so paint<BR>
    them any way you want. Colorful military ships can be assumed to<BR>
    be in ``parade mode''. They turn black while on missions." See<BR>
    <http://www.vectis.demon.co.uk/traveller/faq/tml-faq.html>. (SOM<BR>
    = Starship Operator's Manual - MT supplement concentrating on<BR>
    owning and operating Starships.) Is this in the GURPS canon too?<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
              @==================================================@<BR>
              | Dalton S. Spence, B.Sc. <dalton.spence@hwcn.org> |<BR>
              | Home Page: http://www.hwcn.org/~ag775/home.html  |<BR>
              |      Family Motto: Virtute Acquiritur Honos      |<BR>
              |    "Trade is the lifeblood of the Imperium."     |<BR>
              |   Cleon I, First Emperor of the Third Imperium   |<BR>
              |    Richard Pryor conquers Ho Chi Minh and my     |<BR>
              |                 chainsaw. FNORD!                 |<BR>
              @==================================================@<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 22:18:02 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
From: Dalton Spence <dalton.spence@hwcn.org><BR>
Subject: Re: WANTED: GT Size Specs for Common Small Ships<BR>
<BR>
This reply has also been sent to the newsgroups.<BR>
On 28 Mar 2000 06:52:37 -0500, I sent the following article to the<BR>
rec.games.frp.gurps newsgroup and both the GURPSnet and Traveller<BR>
mailing lists;<BR>
<BR>
> In GURPS vehicle design, spacedocks are typically twice the external<BR>
> volume of the total tonnage they hold. This works well when ships<BR>
> are roughly rectangular or cylindrical in shape, but breaks down<BR>
> when their shapes become too irregular. Unfortunately according to<BR>
> the diagrams and pictures I've seen, most Traveller ships fall into<BR>
> the latter category. In order to design believable deck plans for<BR>
> spacedocks and hangers that could contain most of the common small<BR>
> ships (400 tons or less), I need their shoebox dimensions (length,<BR>
> width and height). Are there any websites or FTP archives with this<BR>
> information? If not, could someone please send me the canonical data<BR>
> for the following ship classes from GURPS Traveller Appendix A?<BR>
<BR>
>          *AUXILARY CRAFT*                    *LARGE SHIPS*<BR>
<BR>
> Rampart and Iramda class Fighters   Sulieman 100-ton Scout/Courier<BR>
> 10-ton Launch and Lifeboat          Beowulf 200-ton Free Trader<BR>
> 20-ton Gig                          Empress Marva 200-ton Far Trader<BR>
> 30-ton Ship's Boat                  Vanderbilt 200-ton Yacht<BR>
> 40-ton Fuel Skimmer                 Lady of Shallot 200-ton Yacht<BR>
> 40-ton Pinnace                      Animal 200-ton Safari Ship<BR>
> 50-ton Modular Cutter (and modules) Dragon 400-ton SDB<BR>
> 100-ton Orbital Shuttle             Akkigish 400-ton Merchant<BR>
> 100-ton Interplanetary Shuttle<BR>
<BR>
<sigh> You know, I really didn't think I was asking a lot (just a<BR>
few measurements or a URL where I could find them), but the few<BR>
replies I got either said "measure the deckplans" or "the extra<BR>
space is in the streamlining" or "just guess." :( (Oh, and I did get<BR>
the URL for "101 Ships for GURPS Traveller", but that didn't answer<BR>
my questions.) While I didn't expect a lot of help from general GURPS<BR>
sources, I really believed at least *one* TMLer would have the stats<BR>
for these ships stashed away somewhere. Or was I wrong in assuming<BR>
that these were just the GURPS versions of classic Traveller ships<BR>
that have been around for years?<BR>
<BR>
Now that I have GT: Starports my need for this data has become more<BR>
acute; according to the table on page 76 and my calculations, the<BR>
small freestanding starship berth (100-dton at 100 ft. diameter) has<BR>
a roof height of approximately 19 feet, the standard berth (800-dton<BR>
at 225 ft. diameter) is approximately 30 feet high, and the largest<BR>
berth (5000-dton at 450 ft. diameter) has an approximate roof height<BR>
of 47 feet. That could be a problem, since my *measured* length and<BR>
height for the 100-dton Sulieman class Scout/Courier from GT p.131<BR>
were approximately 108 feet and 40 feet (*without* the landing gear)<BR>
respectively, Is the scale on the diagram wrong?<BR>
<BR>
You people have been very helpful and informative about other game<BR>
related issues, so I'll try this one last time: could someone<BR>
*please* send me the canonical size stats for the above ships, or at<BR>
least a URL to where I could find them? Thank you.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
              @==================================================@<BR>
              | Dalton S. Spence, B.Sc. <dalton.spence@hwcn.org> |<BR>
              | Home Page: http://www.hwcn.org/~ag775/home.html  |<BR>
              |      Family Motto: Virtute Acquiritur Honos      |<BR>
              |    "Trade is the lifeblood of the Imperium."     |<BR>
              |   Cleon I, First Emperor of the Third Imperium   |<BR>
              |  Dracula must take the perfectly ordinary saber  |<BR>
              |             from the outback. FNORD!             |<BR>
              @==================================================@<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2000 19:21:00 -0700<BR>
From: "James W. Lindsay" <jlindsay@home.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Stellar Data question..<BR>
<BR>
On Tue, 04 Apr 2000 03:26:43 -0800, Peter Newman wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> > This means that it's a *hell* of a lot cheaper to dig out a common<BR>
> > "warren" of tunnels, which give you access to everybody else even<BR>
> > during flares than to dig a bunch of individual dwellings.<BR>
> <BR>
> No this only proves that each family dwelling would be<BR>
> buried deeply. Why are the inhabitants going to pay money<BR>
> for additional tunnel space?<BR>
<BR>
Why do we have roads, subways, etc.?  All these people aren't going to<BR>
spend all their lives sealed up in their 500-square-foot-per-person homes.<BR>
People require a *lot* more than 500 square feet to "live".  They need<BR>
space to work, space to shop, space to play, space to "gather", space to<BR>
grow food, space to raise animals, space for various services, etc.<BR>
<BR>
> > And a *real* engineer (as opposed to first level tech support) would<BR>
> > tell them how to rig a replacement out of a chunk of wire of the right<BR>
> > gauge.<BR>
> <BR>
> Who says there is a 'real' engineer available? Who says<BR>
> that they have wire of the right gauge available?  We're talking <BR>
> about a village/planet with less than 300 people almost all <BR>
> of whom live in poverty, few of which have finished high school, <BR>
> and a lot of whom have substance abuse problems. Oh sure they <BR>
> have (in Gurps terms) Area Knowledge and Survival in the 15-20 <BR>
> range but their Mechanic skill is specialized in Snow Machines,<BR>
> not in power plants.<BR>
<BR>
I'm beginning to see a problem here.  Leonard is talking about the 600,000<BR>
people living on Zenopit (which was the example I used when I started this<BR>
thread).  You, OTOH, seem to be referring to a small 300 population living<BR>
in Alaska (?).<BR>
<BR>
> > Sure, but since they are only needed in emergencies, most houses don't<BR>
> > *have* them.<BR>
> <BR>
> Who says they are only needed in emergencies. Wood stoves are<BR>
> likely to be the cheapest form of heating (assuming abundant wood).<BR>
> If the population is low and land is cheap then wood is likely to<BR>
> be cheap or free, when you want it you simply cut it down.<BR>
<BR>
Not cheap, or even free.  Zenopit won't support life like trees unless they<BR>
are grown in large domes on the surface.  Additionally, Zenopit is listed<BR>
as a "desert" world, so water will be extremely hard to find in places.<BR>
<BR>
> > I think the big difference is that you haven't considered how most<BR>
> > worlds that require life support are going to get settled. They'll<BR>
> > start out with some sort of base. Which *will* use centralized<BR>
> > facilities. And while other settlements may spring up later, that main<BR>
> > one (and any others that start out a "bases" or "camps" rather than<BR>
> > individual dwellings) will grow by expanding. Which incldes expanding<BR>
> > or adding to the "centralized" facilities, simply because that will be<BR>
> > both easier and *cheaper*. <BR>
> <BR>
> This logic is not supported by the Traveller rules. When using<BR>
> World Builders Handbook to detail a planets population it makes<BR>
> _no_ reference to the number and size of settlements being<BR>
> affected by planetary climate. Therefore worlds in the Imperium <BR>
> must not follow this logic or it would have been mentioned<BR>
> in canon.<BR>
<BR>
Or maybe someone just forgot to include it.<BR>
<BR>
> If the designers on TNE were trying to model a reality in which<BR>
> some planets were prepared for this sort of risk they would<BR>
> have included tables for randomly determining if airless planets<BR>
> in the wilds still had life. They did not do so, therefore we<BR>
> _know_ that no Wilds airless planets were prepared for this<BR>
> problem.<BR>
<BR>
I disagree.  We don't "know" anything.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
James W. Lindsay             Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada<BR>
Website: http://members.home.net/jlindsay          ICQ: #7521644<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
Why are there interstate highways in Hawaii?<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 20:07:17 -0700<BR>
From: "Jesse LaBranche" <Vanquer@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re: New Madrid Fault<BR>
<BR>
> In mail you write:<BR>
> >     The quake was not just one.  From Dec. 1911 to Mar. 1912 there<BR>
> > were at least 3 quakes that busted an 8 on the scale.  Aftershocks<BR>
> > and tremors were continuous throughout that time period.<BR>
<BR>
> Slight typo. That should be *1811* and *1812*.<BR>
> Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
<BR>
Whoah! I don't believe I did that- thanks Leonard.<BR>
<BR>
Jesse.<BR>
vanquer@email.msn.com<BR>
ICQ. 8004143<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 23:14:28 -0400<BR>
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net><BR>
Subject: RE: Warrant of the Restoration<BR>
<BR>
Emperor Cleon Zhunastu (through Frank Pitt) said:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>On the foundations of the past, in order to promote :<BR>
<BR>
What Cleon wrote, and what Cleon *really* meant:<BR>
<BR>
>		Safe travel among the stars,<BR>
<BR>
...unless you're so poor you can only afford to travel in a low berth. (Does<BR>
anyone remember the low lottery?)<BR>
<BR>
>		The exploration of worlds circling those stars,<BR>
<BR>
...so that the megacorporations can exploit their resources completely and<BR>
leave the worlds barren and lifeless.<BR>
<BR>
>		The pursuit of knowledge,<BR>
<BR>
...spying on our enemies, I mean, gathering intelligence on our neighbors.<BR>
<BR>
>		Mutually profitable trade and commerce,<BR>
<BR>
...we'll sow discord planetside and reap the profits!<BR>
<BR>
>		The active exchange of information and tech nology,<BR>
<BR>
...unless, of course, you want to buy TL10 farming equipment and you're on a<BR>
TL5 world.<BR>
<BR>
>		The individual pursuit of personal betterment,<BR>
<BR>
...that is, unless you're an indentured servant, then you can involve<BR>
yourself in the individual pursuit of getting your butt out of debt.<BR>
<BR>
>		And the collective pursuit of community good,<BR>
<BR>
...unless that community needs to "blow off steam" and shoot each other,<BR>
then we'll sit by the sidelines and watch.<BR>
<BR>
>we hereby reestablish the Grand Empire of the Stars.<BR>
<BR>
Boy, we're gonna be rich, rich, rich! :)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2000 22:29:50 -0500<BR>
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: Re: GT-Q: Ground Penetrating Radar and other toys<BR>
<BR>
Dalton Spence wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
<<snip>><BR>
> <BR>
> 2.) I've also designed a Traveller equivalent of the infamous Soviet<BR>
>     "fishing" trawler whose cold war catch-of-the-day was electronic<BR>
>     intelligence. Rather than build a completely new ship, I decided<BR>
>     to refit a common existing design with SOTA technology. To allow<BR>
>     it to shadow ships and worlds undetected, I'm replacing its<BR>
>     Basic TL10 Stealth with Radical TL12 changing the ship's -6 ASig<BR>
>     modifier to -16.<BR>
<BR>
IMHO, since there are few plausible excuses for a starship to loiter<BR>
(there aren't any fish to catch in interplanetary space), you're better<BR>
off designing a standoff SIGINT platform, able to operate at distances<BR>
of 1,000 AU or greater.  That way, if it _is_ detected, it has plenty of<BR>
time to jump out before it is intercepted.  If you like, I can forward<BR>
my _Pueblo_ class SIGINT ship, designed under FF&S2 (T4), so that you<BR>
can compare it to your ideas.<BR>
<BR>
Also, were I your referee, I would rule that stealthing has to be<BR>
designed into a given ship, and cannot be retrofitted.<BR>
<BR>
The stealthed ship can, however, have a visual form grossly similar to<BR>
that of a common vessel.<BR>
<BR>
<<snip>><BR>
> <BR>
> 4.) According to the Traveller Mailing List FAQ question number 5.2,<BR>
>     "All ships have chameleon skins according to the SOM, so paint<BR>
>     them any way you want. Colorful military ships can be assumed to<BR>
>     be in ``parade mode''. They turn black while on missions." See<BR>
>     <http://www.vectis.demon.co.uk/traveller/faq/tml-faq.html>. (SOM<BR>
>     = Starship Operator's Manual - MT supplement concentrating on<BR>
>     owning and operating Starships.) Is this in the GURPS canon too?<BR>
<BR>
Not yet.  During the GT: Imperial Navy playtest, I brought this issue<BR>
up, and it was extensively discussed.  Most of the Traveller grognards<BR>
agreed that there should be some reference to at least some degree of<BR>
"chameleon skin", though not necessarily with the same definition as in<BR>
GVE2.  However, since GT: IN has been pulled out of playtest for further<BR>
revision, I don't know whether this interpretation will be included in<BR>
GT products.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2000 20:28:38 -0700<BR>
From: Cheryl <cheryl@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: The Landgrab: Regina/ Regina<BR>
<BR>
Our Traveller gaming group is laying claim to Regina/Regina in the landgrab.<BR>
<BR>
We have almost finished our survey of "the cannon", so that will be posted<BR>
shortly. We will also post fleshed out data on the political system, etc.<BR>
<BR>
Until then see our site at: www.travellercentral.com.<BR>
<BR>
It has a list of starport shops and services, PC's, NPC's and game notes<BR>
from our campaign on Regina.<BR>
<BR>
Our motto for Regina Up Port is: "Where the weak are killed and eaten".<BR>
<BR>
- -Cheryl Glenn<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2000 20:44:47 -0700<BR>
From: Kristian Miller <travellerne@3rd-imperium.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Life on the Edge<BR>
<BR>
"Smart, David J (David)" wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Most acidic: Unclassified organisms growing on gypsum in caves<BR>
>              at pH 0<BR>
<BR>
The San Jose Mercury News recently had this article:<BR>
<BR>
http://www.mercurycenter.com/premium/scitech/docs/ironmtn28.htm<BR>
<BR>
It talks about some acid producing bacteria (not quite Aliens...yet) and<BR>
pools of acid that were pH -3.6.  Apparently the air is so acidic it<BR>
will start to dissolve your teeth unless you wear protective gear.<BR>
<BR>
Kristian<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2000 20:44:47 -0700<BR>
From: Kristian Miller <travellerne@3rd-imperium.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Life on the Edge<BR>
<BR>
"Smart, David J (David)" wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Most acidic: Unclassified organisms growing on gypsum in caves<BR>
>              at pH 0<BR>
<BR>
The San Jose Mercury News recently had this article:<BR>
<BR>
http://www.mercurycenter.com/premium/scitech/docs/ironmtn28.htm<BR>
<BR>
It talks about some acid producing bacteria (not quite Aliens...yet) and<BR>
pools of acid that were pH -3.6.  Apparently the air is so acidic it<BR>
will start to dissolve your teeth unless you wear protective gear.<BR>
<BR>
Kristian<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2000 22:44:37 -0500<BR>
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: Re: The Landgrab: Regina/ Regina<BR>
<BR>
Cheryl wrote:<BR>
<BR>
<<snip>><BR>
> <BR>
> Our motto for Regina Up Port is: "Where the weak are killed and eaten".<BR>
<BR>
Now _that's_ a motto for the ages!<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 05:21:28 +0200<BR>
From: Ingo Heinscher <Hiroshi.Estigarribia@gmx.de><BR>
Subject: Re: Tee En Ess<BR>
<BR>
At 04:02 04.04.00 -0700, Keith Johnson wrote:<BR>
>At 12:55 PM 4/4/00 -0400, you wrote:<BR>
>> ><BR>
>> >>That's what I get for writing these d*mned things in my sl**p . . .<BR>
>><BR>
>>Another question:<BR>
>><BR>
>>Why hasn't the bug been fixed yet? I mean, it's just changing the location<BR>
>>of the message...<BR>
><BR>
>Probably because fixing the TNS isn't the only part of my job description. :)<BR>
<BR>
:-)<BR>
I see.<BR>
Though I'd suppose that it takes not very long to change that bit of html<BR>
code... say, as long as it takes to write a line to the TML...<BR>
<BR>
;-)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
"This was not meant to be an aggresssion against the Siru Zirka. But we had<BR>
to organize our affairs a bit more efficiently. To be honest, we have had<BR>
to do this for almost 300 years by now."<BR>
unknown Terran politician, -2398 Imp<BR>
;-) ingo heinscher <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2000 20:42:50<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Filk explosion! Dulinor went to Capital<BR>
<BR>
At 05:50 PM 4/4/2000 -0700, you wrote:<BR>
>I'll be there of course.  Haven't missed a BayCon in at least 5 years....I<BR>
>think :\  Memory's goin' to crap.<BR>
<BR>
<Penguin stare of Death><BR>
<BR>
You missed last year due to work.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas Berry      gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
   http://gridlore.home.mondspring.com<BR>
<BR>
"A mrgs einu sinni hluti minn systir..."<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 09:34:27 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Disparate TLs<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Hans Rancke-Madsen writes:<BR>
>>>It is hard to defend the disparity in TL between nearby worlds in the OTU.<BR>
>>I disagree. I find it perfectly explainable. The problem is that the<BR>
>>usual argument to the contrary leaves out one crucial bit. It goes something<BR>
>>like this "Given the cost of transportation in the Imperium, any world that<BR>
>>is not interdicted can buy TL 15 equipment". And the crucial bit that is<BR>
>>left out? "...provided they produce something offworlders will pay a<BR>
>>reasonable price for".<BR>
>>"Sure you can buy this state-of-the-art laser rifle. All it'll cost you is<BR>
>>a thousand Crimps."What will you pay me for a cartload of ragabatu roots?"<BR>
>>"One Crimp." "Never mind."<BR>
><BR>
>         I don't buy this argument.  When a PC arrives on a TL 6 world, the<BR>
>         price of a rifle is Cr 200 (IIRC).  Let's say that world has a<BR>
>         standing army that uses 5,000,000 rifles.  How hard can it be for the<BR>
>         local government to pay the PCs Cr 3,000 (a 100% markup, IIRC) each<BR>
>         for 333,333 laser rifles?  These are Imperial credits that the PCs<BR>
>         are buying and selling with, LBB2 certainly lets players buy and<BR>
>         sell freely on most any world.  One could argue that some worlds<BR>
>         are economically isolated (why did they colonize it in the first<BR>
>         place?), but not all or even most (IMHO).<BR>
<BR>
Well, *getting* that much *spare* money may be a problem for the government.<BR>
<BR>
>         Even so, if it takes 1000 cartloads of ragabatu roots to buy a laser<BR>
>         rifle, perhaps the world can produce a few million cartloads.  What<BR>
>         about this copper mine here, how much will you offer for good copper<BR>
>         ore (in Imperial credits, please).  Perhaps a Megacorp would like to<BR>
>         invest in developing this resource, with TL 9+ equipment.<BR>
<BR>
Keep in mind that for *some* societies, diverting production or<BR>
resources can be fatal. Most commonly this involves argicultural<BR>
production in a TL1 or TL2 society. They need all the output of all the<BR>
farmers just to keep the population *alive*. And they run 99.99%<BR>
farmers, because they can't support more than a few folks *not* growing<BR>
food.<BR>
<BR>
>         Even this is a gross simplification.  Exactly what is keeping a TL 5<BR>
>         world from smuggling a few science texts from a TL 6 world and upping<BR>
>         its own TL?  Even a poor TL 5 world could probably scrape together<BR>
>         enough Imperial credits to import a little TL 6 manufacturing<BR>
>         equipment assuming that the pop is high enough).  How about bringing<BR>
>         in a few scientists/engineers/etc. and letting them live like kings<BR>
>         as long as they help upgrade the TL? <BR>
<BR>
Check out the situation in many third world countries. They either go<BR>
for "status symbol" stuff that quickly breaks down because they can't<BR>
maintain it (Hmmm, *that* is why some low tech worlds have fancy<BR>
spaceports! To try to "prove" something...)<BR>
<BR>
Or they spend it on the military, which then oppresses the population<BR>
until the military get sick of it and takes over. Or the people revolt.<BR>
<BR>
Also, consider that the TL5 rating may already *have been* "enhanced"<BR>
this way, and the population in general are educated & trained to more<BR>
like TL3. <BR>
<BR>
>         I figure that low-tech worlds generally find it more efficient to<BR>
>         use equipment that they understand and can maintain locally.  Having<BR>
>         5,000,000 rifles may be better than having 300,000 laser rifles,<BR>
>         especially if recharging them is a problem.  I don't think that the<BR>
>         TL differences are impossible to explain, only that they are no<BR>
>         easier to explain than some of the other Traveller bits that we<BR>
>         have been discussing.<BR>
<BR>
Consider the TLs of a lot of places on earth. They may have an almost<BR>
contemorary TL in the capitol or main city. And once you leave that,<BR>
it's back to TL2 or TL3...<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 20:36:36 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Stories in the printed copy of New Scientist which relate toTraveller<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Brian Quirt write:<BR>
><BR>
> <snip><BR>
><BR>
>>         Come to think of it, the same would probably go for anyone wanting <BR>
>> to study supernovas - I can't see being on site to observe one of those.<BR>
>> And, of course, your (sadly deleted) point about pulsars fits in well<BR>
>> with this.<BR>
><BR>
> Actually, you can study a star on the brink of going supernova <BR>
> from on site. The neutrino-emission of a star going SN rises up <BR>
> by some magnitudes, *hours* before the star actually blows up.<BR>
> IIRC it takes the explosion some time to reach the surface,<BR>
> but I am not quite sure (I cannot look it up, here at work).<BR>
<BR>
The problem is that the neutrino burst from the core collapse is *so*<BR>
intense that it will give you a lethal dose of *neutrinos* at 5 AU (the<BR>
distance of Jupiter from the sun). (This was caluculated from the<BR>
number of neutrinos detected at Earth from the bif supernova in 1989). <BR>
<BR>
So by the time you detect the neutrino pulse, it's too late. <BR>
<BR>
> Possibility for grim adventure:<BR>
><BR>
> The PCs are at Antares, some distance away from the starport<BR>
> (and their ship).  OK, everybody knows it is dangerous living<BR>
> upon an active vulcano (so to speak) and the scientists tell<BR>
> you the chances of Antares going SN is this and that many <BR>
> percent, but haven't they done so for the last couple of cen-<BR>
> turies. Yes, there are kinds of emergency-drills, and maybe<BR>
> we will relocate somewhen in the (not so near) future, but <BR>
> nothing has happend by now. Certainly do I bother about, it's<BR>
> my home and my family, we are taking about.<BR>
> (A typical view of a native of Antares: A human, being quite<BR>
> human).<BR>
><BR>
> Then suddenly, *every* neutrino-sensor goes mad.<BR>
<BR>
No, suddenly every neutrino sensor bursts into flames! Or melts, or<BR>
something similar. We are talking about something in the neighborhood<BR>
of 10^20 to 10^30 *times* as many neutrinos as they were designed for.<BR>
That's *worse* than hitting a sensor designed to detect individual<BR>
photon with a gigawatt laser...<BR>
<BR>
> A short moment of silence, as everybody digests the meaning of <BR>
> this sign, the sign of armagedon.  Then hell breaks loose, as<BR>
> the doom's day has arrived.<BR>
<BR>
No, everyone falls into a coma from the intense radiation dosage. <BR>
<BR>
Anybody far enough out to "only" get a lethal dose will quickly learn<BR>
that they have only a few weeks to live.<BR>
<BR>
I can't think of any "precursor" that occurs enough before the neutrino<BR>
flash.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2000 21:16:58 -0700<BR>
From: Jesse DeGraff <jdegraff@pacbell.net><BR>
Subject: RE: Filk explosion! Dulinor went to Capital<BR>
<BR>
Luckily, I have my Penguin-Stare-of-Death Return Bounceback Mirror(tm)  "We<BR>
manufacture those by the way."<BR>
<BR>
I only missed 50% of the *VILANI BBQ* due to work.  I was there for the rest<BR>
of the Con.  In fact IIRC you were in the row behind me & Todd for Chris<BR>
Knight's Trailer Park thing.  Remember, they showed a sneak peek of Blair<BR>
Witch?<BR>
<BR>
Jesse<BR>
Blackmoore Heavy Industries, LIC<BR>
Makers of the Penguin-Stare-of-Death Return Bounceback Mirror(tm), insanely<BR>
fast starships, and other fine (and grossly expensive) products.  Check your<BR>
local retailers!  Stay tuned to the website for details!<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Douglas E.<BR>
> Berry<BR>
> Sent: Tuesday, April 04, 2000 1:43 PM<BR>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> Subject: RE: Filk explosion! Dulinor went to Capital<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> At 05:50 PM 4/4/2000 -0700, you wrote:<BR>
> >I'll be there of course.  Haven't missed a BayCon in at least 5<BR>
> years....I<BR>
> >think :\  Memory's goin' to crap.<BR>
><BR>
> <Penguin stare of Death><BR>
><BR>
> You missed last year due to work.<BR>
> --<BR>
><BR>
> Douglas Berry      gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
>    http://gridlore.home.mondspring.com<BR>
><BR>
> "A mrgs einu sinni hluti minn systir..."<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2250<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2251</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
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Traveller-digest      Wednesday, April 5 2000      Volume 1999 : Number 2251<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Supernova (was re: stories in the printed copy of New Scientist w hich relate toTraveller)<BR>
FF&S Text or Spreadsheet?<BR>
Grossly Expensive Products (was: Re: Filk explosion!...)<BR>
Re: The Great Tech Level Debate<BR>
Re: Supernova (was re: stories in the printed copy of New Scientist w hich relate toTraveller)<BR>
Re: Trabant IV freighter<BR>
Re: Tee En Ess<BR>
Re: Dave Hyphen is channelling me<BR>
RE: Grossly Expensive Products (was: Re: Filk explosion!...)<BR>
RE: FF&S Text or Spreadsheet?<BR>
[none]<BR>
Re: Imperial Marine models? (was Re: Combat Armor)<BR>
Re: Disparate TLs<BR>
Regina, fair Regina<BR>
Re: NEW ELEMENT<BR>
Re: L'oeil d'Dieu, part 1, v1.0 (long)<BR>
Re : L'oeul d'Dieu<BR>
Re : Squallia - District 268 (TML Landgrab)<BR>
Ship sizes and shapes<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 00:34:25 -0400 <BR>
From: "Smith, Walter" <SmithW@hartwick.edu><BR>
Subject: Supernova (was re: stories in the printed copy of New Scientist w hich relate toTraveller)<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
>So by the time you detect the neutrino pulse, it's too late. <BR>
> A short moment of silence, as everybody digests the meaning of <BR>
<snip><BR>
>No, everyone falls into a coma from the intense radiation dosage. <BR>
><BR>
>Anybody far enough out to "only" get a lethal dose will quickly learn <BR>
>that they have only a few weeks to live. <BR>
><BR>
>I can't think of any "precursor" that occurs enough before the neutrino <BR>
>flash. <BR>
<BR>
Good. That means we have to make up one - a gravitic anomaly, a meson<BR>
"pop", even a strange reading on the residual energy in a jump capacitor<BR>
on a ship entering the system - or arriving from it.<BR>
<BR>
Now have *one* scientist know about it - he's been studying the<BR>
phenomena, and has hit upon a theory about supernova warning signals.<BR>
The local star just started giving off this warning signal, and the<BR>
intensity is escalating. <BR>
<BR>
In the best disaster movie tradition, no one believes him. Not until<BR>
something involving the player characters happens.<BR>
<BR>
Let's say they have a Darrian scientist on board, on his way somewhere.<BR>
With his secret understanding of stellar phenomena, he looks over the<BR>
doomsday scientist's data, oohs and aahs at the man's brilliant<BR>
and breakthrough discovery...then turns very pale.<BR>
<BR>
The PC's, if they believe the two scientists, may want to leave.<BR>
*Now*. At least one of the scientists, with enough data from the<BR>
other to prove his case, wants to make the catastrophe public,<BR>
immediately. Most will die, but some can be saved.<BR>
<BR>
If word gets out, of course, carnage will be total. Crowds will<BR>
tear themselves to shreds, fighting their way to the few starships<BR>
still on the field. Crews at gunpoint see their ships filled to<BR>
bursting with panicked people, so many that life support may fail<BR>
in jump space...and the crowds crush so close that a thousand die<BR>
on the ground with each takeoff, pushed too close to get away from<BR>
the heatspill of the straining engines.<BR>
<BR>
...and then the star burps, puts out a funny glow for a few hours<BR>
that wrecks all communication frequencies for a day or so, and<BR>
settles down to complete stability. Even brilliant scientists are<BR>
wrong sometimes...<BR>
<BR>
Kind of like the mega-version of shouting "fire" in a crowded movie<BR>
theater. _Prison Planet_, anyone?  ;-)<BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 00:37:50 -0400<BR>
From: "Josh W. Spencer" <macmanjws@earthlink.net><BR>
Subject: FF&S Text or Spreadsheet?<BR>
<BR>
If anyone has either of these, please contact me off-list. Thanks.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Josh W. Spencer (macmanjws@earthlink.net)<BR>
VILANI ALIAS: Iashir Rekiinikimas Uiagam<BR>
Ypsilanti, Michigan, North America, Terra<BR>
Sol Subsector, Solomani Rim Sector<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2000 23:46:36 -0500<BR>
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: Grossly Expensive Products (was: Re: Filk explosion!...)<BR>
<BR>
Jesse DeGraff wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> Luckily, I have my Penguin-Stare-of-Death Return Bounceback Mirror(tm)  "We<BR>
> manufacture those by the way."<BR>
> <BR>
<<snip>><BR>
> <BR>
> Jesse<BR>
> Blackmoore Heavy Industries, LIC<BR>
> Makers of the Penguin-Stare-of-Death Return Bounceback Mirror(tm), insanely<BR>
> fast starships, and other fine (and grossly expensive) products.  Check your<BR>
> local retailers!  Stay tuned to the website for details!<BR>
<BR>
When you can build a Type S variant that costs over MCr 627, then we can<BR>
talk "grossly expensive."  Until then, you got _nothin'_ to show me. ;-)<BR>
<BR>
BTW, you _do_ realize that I have an even more capable, more expensive<BR>
version of the _Scandalous_ class in the works, don't you? <BR>
<BR>
Cha-CHING! <evil grin><BR>
<BR>
<<snip>><BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 00:40:34 -0400<BR>
From: "Josh W. Spencer" <macmanjws@earthlink.net><BR>
Subject: Re: The Great Tech Level Debate<BR>
<BR>
Kurt Brown wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> For what it's worth, my view of Tech Level is as follows:<BR>
> <BR>
> The stated Tech Level of a particular world is the "Locally Sustainable"<BR>
> tech level. If contact with the outside world were cut off tomorrow, the<BR>
> stated TL is the best they could manage on their own.<BR>
> <BR>
> Therefore, farmers on a TL 5 world are perfectly fine driving TL 10<BR>
> tractors, but if everything goes to hell or there's an embargo, once<BR>
> those tractors wear out it's back to the old mule team.<BR>
> <BR>
> This interpretatiuon allows for "local flavor" in that you'll still have<BR>
> your quaint country farms, but they'll be driving John Deere tractors,<BR>
> not two-oxen teams. You can still import higher tech stuff for a fair<BR>
> profit, and acquire hand-crafted leather mugs (still made locally<BR>
> despite the disposable plastic variety available at the local pub) for<BR>
> off world markets. Note that this does NOT mean than once you cross the<BR>
> XT line at the starport you step off the sidewalk and into a mudpuddle<BR>
> that the locals call a road! What it does mean is that, for a price, the<BR>
> locals can enjoy comfort/convenience/productivity several levels above<BR>
> what they could produce on their own.<BR>
> <BR>
> Think about Levi's and color TV's in early-'90's Moscow (or any other<BR>
> East European country after the fall of the wall), the capital of a<BR>
> country that to this day can't produce a decent automobile for<BR>
> themselves, or even feed it's people reliably. If every bit of contact<BR>
> with the West were cut off today, they could make TV's. . .just not good<BR>
> ones. They could make jeans. . .but they'd fall apart in a hard rain.<BR>
> And eventually they might be able to duplicate the advances of the West,<BR>
> but it would take a LONG time.<BR>
> <BR>
> Okay, so I rambled a bit. Hopefully, this interpretation will help clear<BR>
> things up a bit. If not. . hey, I tried! :)<BR>
<BR>
Toilet paper, Kurt. You forgot about their toilet paper. :) :)<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Josh W. Spencer (macmanjws@earthlink.net)<BR>
VILANI ALIAS: Iashir Rekiinikimas Uiagam<BR>
Ypsilanti, Michigan, North America, Terra<BR>
Sol Subsector, Solomani Rim Sector<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 00:51:38 -0400<BR>
From: "Josh W. Spencer" <macmanjws@earthlink.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Supernova (was re: stories in the printed copy of New Scientist w hich relate toTraveller)<BR>
<BR>
Walter Smith wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> Good. That means we have to make up one - a gravitic anomaly, a meson<BR>
> "pop", even a strange reading on the residual energy in a jump capacitor<BR>
> on a ship entering the system - or arriving from it.<BR>
> <BR>
> Now have *one* scientist know about it - he's been studying the<BR>
> phenomena, and has hit upon a theory about supernova warning signals.<BR>
> The local star just started giving off this warning signal, and the<BR>
> intensity is escalating.<BR>
> <BR>
> In the best disaster movie tradition, no one believes him. Not until<BR>
> something involving the player characters happens.<BR>
> <BR>
> Let's say they have a Darrian scientist on board, on his way somewhere.<BR>
> With his secret understanding of stellar phenomena, he looks over the<BR>
> doomsday scientist's data, oohs and aahs at the man's brilliant<BR>
> and breakthrough discovery...then turns very pale.<BR>
> <BR>
> The PC's, if they believe the two scientists, may want to leave.<BR>
> *Now*. At least one of the scientists, with enough data from the<BR>
> other to prove his case, wants to make the catastrophe public,<BR>
> immediately. Most will die, but some can be saved.<BR>
> <BR>
> If word gets out, of course, carnage will be total. Crowds will<BR>
> tear themselves to shreds, fighting their way to the few starships<BR>
> still on the field. Crews at gunpoint see their ships filled to<BR>
> bursting with panicked people, so many that life support may fail<BR>
> in jump space...and the crowds crush so close that a thousand die<BR>
> on the ground with each takeoff, pushed too close to get away from<BR>
> the heatspill of the straining engines.<BR>
> <BR>
> ....and then the star burps, puts out a funny glow for a few hours<BR>
> that wrecks all communication frequencies for a day or so, and<BR>
> settles down to complete stability. Even brilliant scientists are<BR>
> wrong sometimes...<BR>
> <BR>
> Kind of like the mega-version of shouting "fire" in a crowded movie<BR>
> theater. _Prison Planet_, anyone?  ;-)<BR>
<BR>
Or how about a recently-aired episode of "The Outer Limits"...a physicist<BR>
realizes the Sun will go Nova and wipe out everything on Earth. He decides<BR>
to spend the last few hours of Life with a girl he could never approach.<BR>
<BR>
ONLY that the Nova turned out to be a great big flare.....<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Josh W. Spencer (macmanjws@earthlink.net)<BR>
VILANI ALIAS: Iashir Rekiinikimas Uiagam<BR>
Ypsilanti, Michigan, North America, Terra<BR>
Sol Subsector, Solomani Rim Sector<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 00:54:28 -0400<BR>
From: "Josh W. Spencer" <macmanjws@earthlink.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Trabant IV freighter<BR>
<BR>
Nick Bradbeer tries to sell a ship:<BR>
>><BR>
>> *Funded by the sale of Trabant IV Class Low Budget Packet Freighters***.<BR>
>> **For non Red-Dwarf fans (shame on you) that's a Thermos flask of<BR>
>> nitroglycerine, discharged from the garbage ejector.<BR>
>> ***Which, on a serious note, have a higher profit margin than any other<BR>
>> Traveller ship I've ever seen. www.nickb.ndirect.co.uk/tneships/ships.html<BR>
>> They're actually one of the designs I'm proudest of.<BR>
<BR>
Katharine Whitchurch then invokes Ditzie:<BR>
> <BR>
> Ditzie wants to know if it's built to be so cheeeap then why why why does it<BR>
> have 4 gees of compensation when the maximum number of geees it can pull it<BR>
> two ?<BR>
> <BR>
> She also thinks that you could cut a third off the size of the power plant,<BR>
> at the cost of not using the maneuver drive and jump drive at once. Becasue,<BR>
> as she says, every megacwedit you saaaaave on the sticker-wicker<BR>
> costie-wostie is fooour kilocwedits a month. Thats a new Jet Bike every<BR>
> year.<BR>
> <BR>
> Although what she'd do is add about 40 MW to the power plant, and upgrade it<BR>
> all to jump-2. Jump-1 small freighters have very few uses in the Third<BR>
> Imperium, and what jump-1 freighters there are would tend to be TL9-11<BR>
> designs (TL13 shipyards should be building jump-4 Express freighters and<BR>
> Imperial Auxilary ships).<BR>
> <BR>
> But it's a nice design.<BR>
<BR>
Where the hell is this thing built...Eastern Germany??? :) :)<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Josh W. Spencer (macmanjws@earthlink.net)<BR>
VILANI ALIAS: Iashir Rekiinikimas Uiagam<BR>
Ypsilanti, Michigan, North America, Terra<BR>
Sol Subsector, Solomani Rim Sector<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 21:31:22 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Tee En Ess<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>> On Behalf Of Glenn Goffin<BR>
>> From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
>><BR>
>> >What would help *everyone* is a program that knows about the x-<BR>
>> >boat routes and can "roll" for travel times to/from the routes<BR>
>> >for worlds not on them. Input a world and a date, and it can<BR>
>> >tell you when the word of that "event" reaches any other world<BR>
>> >you specify.<BR>
>><BR>
>> *I'm* with *Leonard* on *this* idea, even if I feel *compelled*<BR>
>> to make fun of his *use* of *asterisks.*  (*Actually*, the first<BR>
>> paragraph of his post only contains *one* asterisk, *but* I've<BR>
>> been noticing them so much lately that I *had* to mention them.)<BR>
>><BR>
>> Anyway, this is something that I've thought about in an abstract<BR>
>> way, but never gotten off my butt to attempt.  It would also be<BR>
>> a good tool for interstellar wargaming, particularly a<BR>
>> multiplayer game (even, or maybe better, an email multiplayer<BR>
>> game).  Each side has a hierarchy of admirals and they send<BR>
>> their information to the referee, who resolves what happens<BR>
>> sends word back to the senior admiral.  This would capture the<BR>
>> loneliness of fleet actions and the frustration of time delay.<BR>
>> Maybe I'll work on it *this summer,* but *not* as computer<BR>
>> program, because I've *forgotten* everything I ever knew about<BR>
>> *Fortran.*<BR>
><BR>
> Glenn, you give me the algorthms and processes, I'll write them in Java, and<BR>
> just to keep Leonard and his ancient machines happy I'll see about porting<BR>
> the Java to C++ and compiling a dos exe. If I can still find my archive of<BR>
> DOS C++ compilers somewhere.<BR>
<BR>
While there are probably better ways of doing it, I'd set up a list of<BR>
nodes with each node having links to its "neighbors". Links would have<BR>
to "marked" as to whether they were via an xboat (1 week lag time) and<BR>
by distance (and possibly port type), for non-xboat links.<BR>
<BR>
For xboat links, you "roll" for standard jump duration and store the<BR>
arrival time for that node. If there's already an arrival time, and<BR>
it's *earlier*, mark that branch as "done", and forget about it. If the<BR>
stored arrival time is later, replace it with the new time and source<BR>
node. <BR>
<BR>
For non-xboat nodes you determine when there will be a ship going that<BR>
way and roll for jump duration for its trip. Treat the arrival time as<BR>
above.<BR>
<BR>
Next, for each node you just serviced, you do the same. And then mark<BR>
the "starting" node as having been completed. <BR>
<BR>
It's gonna take a lotta recursion, and I bet there are tricks you can<BR>
steal from the "look ahead trees" used by chess programs. <BR>
<BR>
But eventually, you'll have done all the nodes. Then you can check to<BR>
see what the arrival times are at nodes you are interested in.<BR>
<BR>
I'm sure there are tricks for deciding that you don't need to consider<BR>
some nodes if all you care about is the time from A to B. But I'm not<BR>
sure what they might be.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 21:51:27 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Dave Hyphen is channelling me<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> At 11:42 AM 4/4/2000 +0200, you wrote:<BR>
>>Douglas E. Berry wrote:<BR>
>>> Wait until you see the Imperial Army uniform I'm going to have at BayCon.<BR>
>><BR>
>>Please, take a picture or five and post on a webpage somewhere. Preferrably<BR>
>>with some kind of weapon (fake or real as you see fit) in your hands.<BR>
>>Perhaps with some kind of nice background...<BR>
><BR>
> The uniform is a set of Army "slops" (basic utility uniform.) I didn't have<BR>
> the budget this year to do a set of full dress, and since somebody hasn't<BR>
> gotten around to the amrmor yet..<BR>
><BR>
> It's a very simple uniform, since I'm going to be doing panels and hosting<BR>
> the Srephon's Jubilee Party in it.  Gray Federal short-sleeved BDU shirt,<BR>
> black BDU pants, boots, black beret.  Had custom name tags made reading<BR>
> IMPERIAL ARMY and BERRY.  Have a few other bells and whistles.<BR>
<BR>
About those name tags... In English or Bilandin? :-)<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2000 22:01:10 -0700<BR>
From: Jesse DeGraff <jdegraff@pacbell.net><BR>
Subject: RE: Grossly Expensive Products (was: Re: Filk explosion!...)<BR>
<BR>
LOL!  The designs I tend to come up with useing Andy's FF&Sv2 spreadsheet<BR>
are usually pretty expensive.  Haven't tried a Type S, but I'm up to the<BR>
challenge.  Have to finish AR3 first though!!!!<BR>
<BR>
BTW, I've always loved the trademark file "Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for<BR>
copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
<BR>
Jesse<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Black ICE<BR>
> Sent: Tuesday, April 04, 2000 9:47 PM<BR>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> Subject: Grossly Expensive Products (was: Re: Filk explosion!...)<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> Jesse DeGraff wrote:<BR>
> ><BR>
> > Luckily, I have my Penguin-Stare-of-Death Return Bounceback<BR>
> Mirror(tm)  "We<BR>
> > manufacture those by the way."<BR>
> ><BR>
> <<snip>><BR>
> ><BR>
> > Jesse<BR>
> > Blackmoore Heavy Industries, LIC<BR>
> > Makers of the Penguin-Stare-of-Death Return Bounceback<BR>
> Mirror(tm), insanely<BR>
> > fast starships, and other fine (and grossly expensive)<BR>
> products.  Check your<BR>
> > local retailers!  Stay tuned to the website for details!<BR>
><BR>
> When you can build a Type S variant that costs over MCr 627, then we can<BR>
> talk "grossly expensive."  Until then, you got _nothin'_ to show me. ;-)<BR>
><BR>
> BTW, you _do_ realize that I have an even more capable, more expensive<BR>
> version of the _Scandalous_ class in the works, don't you?<BR>
><BR>
> Cha-CHING! <evil grin><BR>
><BR>
> <<snip>><BR>
><BR>
> --<BR>
> AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
> "Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
> Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List<BR>
><BR>
> http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2000 22:04:45 -0700<BR>
From: Jesse DeGraff <jdegraff@pacbell.net><BR>
Subject: RE: FF&S Text or Spreadsheet?<BR>
<BR>
Andy Akins has a great FF&Sv2 spreadsheet that I use.  His website is at<BR>
http://www.truserve.com/%7Eigor/traveller/index.htm and you can find the<BR>
spreadsheet in the Depot area, or you can contact him directly at<BR>
igor@truserve.com.<BR>
<BR>
Best,<BR>
Jesse<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Josh W.<BR>
> Spencer<BR>
> Sent: Tuesday, April 04, 2000 9:38 PM<BR>
> To: Traveller Mailing List<BR>
> Subject: FF&S Text or Spreadsheet?<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> If anyone has either of these, please contact me off-list. Thanks.<BR>
><BR>
> --<BR>
> Josh W. Spencer (macmanjws@earthlink.net)<BR>
> VILANI ALIAS: Iashir Rekiinikimas Uiagam<BR>
> Ypsilanti, Michigan, North America, Terra<BR>
> Sol Subsector, Solomani Rim Sector<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 22:09:22 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Broken Empath <fadetozero@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: [none]<BR>
<BR>
having been away from traveller on the web, and having<BR>
just recently completed going thru the archives thru<BR>
'97, i'm dismayed by the more acrimonious and<BR>
confrontational letters i'm seeing lately.  geez, what happened?<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.<BR>
http://im.yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2000 21:57:15 -0700<BR>
From: "James W. Lindsay" <jlindsay@home.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Imperial Marine models? (was Re: Combat Armor)<BR>
<BR>
On Tue, 04 Apr 2000 08:10:06 -0700, Steven Hudson wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> >From: Jesse DeGraff <jdegraff@pacbell.net><BR>
> >Subject: RE: Imperial Marine models? (was Re: Combat Armor)<BR>
> ><BR>
> >Then there's the company that makes 1/6th "Aliens" armor, weapons, and<BR>
> >accessories for 1:6 scale figures which are starting to really boom in<BR>
> >popularity. Check out http://members.aol.com/M56SG/uscm.html to see what I<BR>
> mean.<BR>
> <BR>
>   Oh my! - luckily I'm a miniatures _gamer_, so anything too large to be<BR>
> of practical use for that I'm immune to buying on impulse. Mostly (did I<BR>
> mention T4 "Starships"?...).<BR>
<BR>
For a minute there, I thought you were talking about me...<BR>
<BR>
>   Well, given that a 1:_16th_ kit - even in resin - would be _far_ cheaper<BR>
> than those figures, it's still nice to know that people will shell out huge<BR>
> amounts of money for cool toys - although those VW restoration guys worry me.<BR>
<BR>
Now I'm certain of it!  And I don't "restore" old VWs... I "customize" them<BR>
to the point that they eat Mustangs for breakfast...<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
James W. Lindsay             Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada<BR>
Website: http://members.home.net/jlindsay          ICQ: #7521644<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
Why are there interstate highways in Hawaii?<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2000 22:02:25 -0700<BR>
From: "James W. Lindsay" <jlindsay@home.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Disparate TLs<BR>
<BR>
On Tue, 04 Apr 2000 10:38:59 -0400, Ian Ferguson wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Hans Rancke-Madsen writes:<BR>
> >>It is hard to defend the disparity in TL between nearby worlds in the OTU.<BR>
> >I disagree. I find it perfectly explainable. The problem is that the<BR>
> >usual argument to the contrary leaves out one crucial bit. It goes something<BR>
> >like this "Given the cost of transportation in the Imperium, any world that<BR>
> >is not interdicted can buy TL 15 equipment". And the crucial bit that is<BR>
> >left out? "...provided they produce something offworlders will pay a<BR>
> >reasonable price for".<BR>
> >"Sure you can buy this state-of-the-art laser rifle. All it'll cost you is<BR>
> >a thousand Crimps."What will you pay me for a cartload of ragabatu roots?"<BR>
> >"One Crimp." "Never mind."<BR>
> <BR>
> 	I don't buy this argument.  When a PC arrives on a TL 6 world, the<BR>
> 	price of a rifle is Cr 200 (IIRC).  Let's say that world has a<BR>
> 	standing army that uses 5,000,000 rifles.  How hard can it be for the<BR>
> 	local government to pay the PCs Cr 3,000 (a 100% markup, IIRC) each<BR>
> 	for 333,333 laser rifles?<BR>
<BR>
Hmmm... I consider 5 million TL6 rifles to be *much* more of a threat (as a<BR>
standing army, that is) than a third of a million laser rifles.  Sure, the<BR>
latter has better range and can inflict more damage.  Then again, being<BR>
outnumbered 15:1 really sucks...<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
James W. Lindsay             Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada<BR>
Website: http://members.home.net/jlindsay          ICQ: #7521644<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
Why are there interstate highways in Hawaii?<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 04:15:25 +1000<BR>
From: "Karen and Michael Hughes" <kmhughes@dynamite.com.au><BR>
Subject: Regina, fair Regina<BR>
<BR>
Our Traveller gaming group is laying claim to Regina/Regina in the landgrab.<BR>
<BR>
We have almost finished our survey of "the cannon", so that will be posted<BR>
shortly. We will also post fleshed out data on the political system, etc.<BR>
<BR>
Until then see our site at: www.travellercentral.com.<BR>
<BR>
It has a list of starport shops and services, PC's, NPC's and game notes<BR>
from our campaign on Regina.<BR>
<BR>
Our motto for Regina Up Port is: "Where the weak are killed and eaten".<BR>
<BR>
- - -Cheryl Glenn<BR>
<BR>
Intrigued I doth confess to visiting this site.<BR>
<BR>
Wow. <BR>
<BR>
That's some nice work Mr/Ms C<BR>
<BR>
SEC: Michael <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 02:43:30 -0400<BR>
From: michael stasica <stosh@sympatico.ca><BR>
Subject: Re: NEW ELEMENT<BR>
<BR>
Sword-Worlder wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> MAJOR U.S. RESEARCH UNIVERSITY DISCOVERS NEW ELEMENT!<BR>
><BR>
> The heaviest element known to science was recently discovered by<BR>
> investigators at a major U.S. research university.  The element,<BR>
> tentatively named Administratium, has no protons or electrons and thus<BR>
> has an atomic number of 0.  However, it does have 1 neutron, 125<BR>
> assistant neutrons, 75 vice neutrons, and 111 assistant vice neutrons.<BR>
> This gives it an atomic mass of 312.<BR>
<BR>
SNIP<BR>
<BR>
Gee, you in the midst of an election maybe?<BR>
<BR>
Fortunately I hadn't open my beer over my new ergo keyboard.<BR>
<BR>
Michael<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 17:30:38 +1000<BR>
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re: L'oeil d'Dieu, part 1, v1.0 (long)<BR>
<BR>
Doug Berry wrote :-<BR>
> Wow!  I finally had the chance to sit down and really read this, and I must<BR>
> say that this sort of thing was exactly what I had in mind when I first<BR>
> proposed the Landgrab.<BR>
<BR>
Thanks Doug. I'm not done yet though ; give me a couple of days.<BR>
<BR>
Does anyone mind if I fiddle with another system?<BR>
Any suggestions?<BR>
<BR>
Robert O'Connor<BR>
Medico, Gamer<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 17:30:21 +1000<BR>
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re : L'oeul d'Dieu<BR>
<BR>
Hans Rancke-Madsen wrote :-<BR>
> I'm not sure this qualifies as constructive, but this is far too early to<BR>
> accord with canon.<BR>
> <BR>
> "Until about 300, Aramis sector was empty[1]. Scattered ships passed through,<BR>
> but few stopped on their journeys beyond to the growing Regina subsector. In<BR>
> 310, the onslaught began." [The Traveller Adventure, p. 15]<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
Thanks. I don't have the Traveller Adventure. It looks like a very<BR>
useful reference.<BR>
<BR>
> To atone for the non-constructiveness of the criticism above, I'll quote the<BR>
> information about L'ouel d'Dieu in _The Traveler Adventure_ (p. 18):<BR>
<BR>
Thanks, but that quote is reproduced in BtC almost verbatim.<BR>
<BR>
Atonement??<BR>
<BR>
<El Nebuloso from 'Yellowbeard'><BR>
"Bang your head upon the floor until forgiven!"<BR>
</El Nebuloso><BR>
<BR>
Robert O'Connor<BR>
Medico, Gamer<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 17:31:52 +1000<BR>
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re : Squallia - District 268 (TML Landgrab)<BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith wrote :-<BR>
> Now to figure out the ramifications of a Very Thin atmosphere and<BR>
> a hydro percentage of about 80%(?)<BR>
<BR>
By definition a Very Thin atmosphere has a pressure of 0.49 (G:Space<BR>
0.5) atm or less.<BR>
<BR>
The saturated vapour pressure of water at various temperatures is :-<BR>
Temp(C)	SVP(mmHg)<BR>
- -10	~2<BR>
0	4.6<BR>
5	6.5<BR>
10	9.2<BR>
15	12.8<BR>
20	17.5<BR>
25	23.8<BR>
30	31.8<BR>
37	47<BR>
50	92.5<BR>
75	289.1<BR>
100	760<BR>
<BR>
When SVP = atmospheric pressure, water boils.<BR>
So water will have a boiling point somewhere around 80 C if we assume<BR>
pressure of about 0.49 atm.<BR>
<BR>
Initial thoughts :-<BR>
i. There will be an increased tendency to cloud formation, at lower<BR>
altitudes (relatively greater fall-off in atmospheric pressure relative<BR>
to height compared with the 'standard atmosphere').<BR>
<BR>
ii. Increased albedo (from the cloud cover) will aggravate the effect of<BR>
the reduced heat trapping capacity of the atmosphere. <BR>
<BR>
iii. The greenhouse effect secondary to water vapour will be decreased<BR>
because the thinner atmosphere can hold less of it.<BR>
<BR>
Sorry about the presentation of the table ; I'm a little rushed for<BR>
time. Hope this is of some use.<BR>
<BR>
Robert O'Connor<BR>
Medico, Gamer<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 18:15:04 +1000<BR>
From: "Katharine Whitchurch" <katts@globalfreeway.com.au><BR>
Subject: Ship sizes and shapes<BR>
<BR>
> Now that I have GT: Starports my need for this data has become more<BR>
> acute; according to the table on page 76 and my calculations, the<BR>
> small freestanding starship berth (100-dton at 100 ft. diameter) has<BR>
> a roof height of approximately 19 feet, the standard berth (800-dton<BR>
> at 225 ft. diameter) is approximately 30 feet high, and the largest<BR>
> berth (5000-dton at 450 ft. diameter) has an approximate roof height<BR>
> of 47 feet. That could be a problem, since my *measured* length and<BR>
> height for the 100-dton Sulieman class Scout/Courier from GT p.131<BR>
> were approximately 108 feet and 40 feet (*without* the landing gear)<BR>
> respectively, Is the scale on the diagram wrong?<BR>
<BR>
OK. This is all goanna be in metric, and my best guesses from shapes. If it<BR>
differs from other versions, these are the Famile Spofulam Yards versions<BR>
(variants available with your choice of 12 gee engines, meson guns, resupply<BR>
pods for Elephant-Mounted Particle Accelerators etc). Just about every one<BR>
of these designs is goanna be built by twenty makers, to twenty<BR>
slightly-different designs.<BR>
<BR>
BTW, you owe me 3 NPCs (written up for G:T is OK) for people likely to be<BR>
travelling from Glisten to Mire in Darrian space. This is for the Mire Run,<BR>
a scenario that I posted recently (which I can re-send to people on<BR>
request).<BR>
<BR>
Rampart and Iramda class Fighters ; 10 dton short rounded cylinder ; 9.2m<BR>
long, 4.2m wide and high<BR>
Sulieman 100-ton Scout/Courier ; 100 dton wedge ; 35 m long, 24m wide, 10m<BR>
high<BR>
> > 10-ton Launch and Lifeboat  ; 10 dton medium cylinder ; 9 m long, 5.6m<BR>
wide and high<BR>
Beowulf 200-ton Free Trader ; 200 dton Medium Box ; 22.4 m long, 112 m wide<BR>
and high<BR>
> > 20-ton Gig ; 20 dton Long Cone ;25.8m long, 6.4 m wide and high<BR>
  Empress Marva 200-ton Far Trader ; 200 dton Monolith ; 38.5 m long, 17.1 m<BR>
wide, 4.2 m high<BR>
> > 30-ton Ship's Boat ; 30 dton Medium Cylinder ; 19.05m long, 5.5m wide<BR>
and high<BR>
Vanderbilt 200-ton Yacht ; 200 dton Wedge ; 44.1m long, 30.3m wide, 12.6m<BR>
high<BR>
> > 40-ton Fuel Skimmer ; 40dton Short Rounded Cylinder ; 14.6 m long, 7.24<BR>
m wide and high<BR>
 Lady of Shallot 200-ton Yacht ; Same as Vandy<BR>
> > 40-ton Pinnace ; as Fuel Skimmer<BR>
Animal 200-ton Safari Ship ; 200 dton Dome ; 21.2m long and wide, 10.7m high<BR>
> > 50-ton Modular Cutter (and modules) ; 50 dton Long Cylinder - 28.4m<BR>
long, 5.72m wide and high (modules sit flush in the back 40%)<BR>
Dragon 400-ton SDB ; 400 dton Wedge ; 55.44 m long, 38.1m wide , 15.8 m high<BR>
> > 100-ton Orbital Shuttle ; 100 dton Short Cylinder ; 12.1m in all<BR>
dimensions<BR>
 Akkigish 400-ton Merchant ; 400 dron Short Rounded Cylinder ; 31.5m long,<BR>
15.6m wide and high<BR>
> > 100-ton Interplanetary Shuttle ; 100 dton Medium Cylinder ; 19.3 m long,<BR>
9.6 m wide and high<BR>
<BR>
Ian Whitchurch<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2251<BR>
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Traveller-digest      Wednesday, April 5 2000      Volume 1999 : Number 2252<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2248<BR>
Famile Spofulam Hi-Sensitivity Scout<BR>
RE: The Landgrab: Regina/ Regina<BR>
RE: The Landgrab: Regina/ Regina<BR>
Re: Supernova (was re: stories in the printed copy of New Scientist  which relate toTraveller)<BR>
Re: Supernova (was re: stories in the printed copy of New Scientist  which relate toTraveller)<BR>
Type-Ss with a spinal mount meson gun?<BR>
RE: Supernova (was re: stories in the printed copy of NewScientist w hich relate toTraveller)<BR>
Astronomy in the 57th Century<BR>
Re: Notes on building Heya<BR>
More Ochetate Rebellion stuff<BR>
Re: Notes on building Heya<BR>
World population limits<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 18:21:49 +1000<BR>
From: "Katharine Whitchurch" <katts@globalfreeway.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2248<BR>
<BR>
> From: Qstor@aol.com<BR>
> Subject: Re: TML Landgrab - 876-574<BR>
><BR>
> Any comments? On my entry :)<BR>
<BR>
Yeah. Good stuff.<BR>
<BR>
Any notes on what 876-574 exports ? It has a couple of food-deficit worlds<BR>
nearby, and I'd say that you could probably find some delicacy there to sell<BR>
for good money on Glisten.<BR>
<BR>
Ian Whitchurch<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 18:41:57 +1000<BR>
From: "Katharine Whitchurch" <katts@globalfreeway.com.au><BR>
Subject: Famile Spofulam Hi-Sensitivity Scout<BR>
<BR>
> From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net><BR>
> Subject: Grossly Expensive Products (was: Re: Filk explosion!...)<BR>
><BR>
> Jesse DeGraff wrote:<BR>
> ><BR>
> > Luckily, I have my Penguin-Stare-of-Death Return Bounceback Mirror(tm)<BR>
"We<BR>
> > manufacture those by the way."<BR>
> ><BR>
> <<snip>><BR>
> ><BR>
> > Jesse<BR>
> > Blackmoore Heavy Industries, LIC<BR>
> > Makers of the Penguin-Stare-of-Death Return Bounceback Mirror(tm),<BR>
insanely<BR>
> > fast starships, and other fine (and grossly expensive) products.  Check<BR>
your<BR>
> > local retailers!  Stay tuned to the website for details!<BR>
><BR>
> When you can build a Type S variant that costs over MCr 627, then we can<BR>
> talk "grossly expensive."  Until then, you got _nothin'_ to show me. ;-)<BR>
><BR>
> BTW, you _do_ realize that I have an even more capable, more expensive<BR>
> version of the _Scandalous_ class in the works, don't you?<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
Ditzie humphs.<BR>
<BR>
100 dton Needle configuration is 81.3 m long.<BR>
<BR>
Therefore we can fit 400 m3 of TL11 PEMS, as we need a 30m length to mount<BR>
it.<BR>
<BR>
A Fac 14/200 m2/400 m3 TL11 PEMS costs a cold gigacredit.<BR>
<BR>
We calculate it can detect a J class racing yacht at seven parsecs.<BR>
<BR>
I'll leave it to the apprentices to shoehorn in the jump-2 drive, the 2 Gs<BR>
of T-plates, the two cabins and the type IV life support.<BR>
<BR>
Ian Whitchurch<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 11:18:07 +0100 <BR>
From: Matt Bond <MBOND@karpad.demon.co.uk><BR>
Subject: RE: The Landgrab: Regina/ Regina<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: Black ICE [mailto:wombat@premier.net]<BR>
> Cheryl wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> <<snip>><BR>
> > <BR>
> > Our motto for Regina Up Port is: "Where the weak are killed <BR>
> and eaten".<BR>
> <BR>
> Now _that's_ a motto for the ages!<BR>
<BR>
Especially for the Vilani... <g> <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 11:31:15 +0100 <BR>
From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com><BR>
Subject: RE: The Landgrab: Regina/ Regina<BR>
<BR>
Cheryl Glenn wrote:<BR>
> Our Traveller gaming group is laying claim to Regina/Regina <BR>
> in the landgrab.<BR>
> <BR>
> We have almost finished our survey of "the cannon", so that <BR>
> will be posted<BR>
> shortly. We will also post fleshed out data on the political <BR>
> system, etc.<BR>
> <BR>
> Until then see our site at: www.travellercentral.com.<BR>
<BR>
Just had a quick peek at your web site, looka nice.  Missing from<BR>
your canon survey is the map and info on Regina that  appears  in<BR>
the Grand Survey/Grand Census and World Builders Handbook.<BR>
<BR>
Regards PLST<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 07:46:56 -0300<BR>
From: Brian Quirt <baqrt@mta.ca><BR>
Subject: Re: Supernova (was re: stories in the printed copy of New Scientist  which relate toTraveller)<BR>
<BR>
> Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
> >So by the time you detect the neutrino pulse, it's too late.<BR>
> > A short moment of silence, as everybody digests the meaning of<BR>
> <snip><BR>
> >No, everyone falls into a coma from the intense radiation dosage.<BR>
> ><BR>
> >Anybody far enough out to "only" get a lethal dose will quickly learn<BR>
> >that they have only a few weeks to live.<BR>
> ><BR>
> >I can't think of any "precursor" that occurs enough before the neutrino<BR>
> >flash.<BR>
<BR>
Wait a moment here. Are we talking about the same neutrinos? The<BR>
essentially (albeit not quite) massless particles that have almost zero<BR>
chance of ever interacting with ANY normal matter (such that the<BR>
neutrino flux from the sun is essentially identical on both sides of the<BR>
world- no measureable number of neutrinos are absorbed by travelling<BR>
through the earth). How much damage could they cause? Also, what are we<BR>
looking at in the way of a neutrino pulse? How intense? At this point,<BR>
we have a hard enough time DETECTING neutrinos, so I'm wondering how we<BR>
could possibly know what they would cause in the way of radiation damage.<BR>
<BR>
Now, this is based on what I remember, so it may not be right. If not, I<BR>
look forward to any explanation.<BR>
<BR>
- -Brian Quirt<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 07:52:42 -0300<BR>
From: Brian Quirt <baqrt@mta.ca><BR>
Subject: Re: Supernova (was re: stories in the printed copy of New Scientist  which relate toTraveller)<BR>
<BR>
"Smith, Walter" wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
> >So by the time you detect the neutrino pulse, it's too late.<BR>
> > A short moment of silence, as everybody digests the meaning of<BR>
> <snip><BR>
> >No, everyone falls into a coma from the intense radiation dosage.<BR>
> ><BR>
> >Anybody far enough out to "only" get a lethal dose will quickly learn<BR>
> >that they have only a few weeks to live.<BR>
> ><BR>
> >I can't think of any "precursor" that occurs enough before the neutrino<BR>
> >flash.<BR>
> <BR>
> Good. That means we have to make up one - a gravitic anomaly, a meson<BR>
> "pop", even a strange reading on the residual energy in a jump capacitor<BR>
> on a ship entering the system - or arriving from it.<BR>
<BR>
	Well, here's one you can hit people with: when a star explodes, its<BR>
diameter changes (obviously). This throws the jump limit into flux for<BR>
awhile (years even?). Of course, from the jump limit (maybe even<BR>
light-hours out), you may not know this (lightspeed and such). Thus, you<BR>
could end up INSIDE the 100d jump limit without realizing it.<BR>
Alternately, you could jump into a system that went supernova BEFORE you<BR>
left, but the light just hasn't had enough time to reach you yet....<BR>
<BR>
- -Brian Quirt<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 11:52:06 +0100 <BR>
From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com><BR>
Subject: Type-Ss with a spinal mount meson gun?<BR>
<BR>
I just had a bazzare thought: why do all the magnets  (and  other<BR>
components) of a spinal mount meson gun (aka linear  accelerator)<BR>
have to be on the same ship?  With commo-linked computer  control<BR>
a dreadnought sized spinal mount meson  gun  could  be  dispersed<BR>
over a number of ships.  (A bit like Ditzie's EMPG.)  They'd then<BR>
all line up to fire.<BR>
<BR>
Regards PLST<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 23:13:22 +1200<BR>
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: Supernova (was re: stories in the printed copy of NewScientist w hich relate toTraveller)<BR>
<BR>
> On Behalf Of Josh W.<BR>
> Walter Smith wrote:<BR>
> ><BR>
> > Good. That means we have to make up one - a gravitic anomaly, a meson<BR>
> > "pop", even a strange reading on the residual energy in a jump capacitor<BR>
> > on a ship entering the system - or arriving from it.<BR>
> ><BR>
> > Now have *one* scientist know about it - he's been studying the<BR>
> > phenomena, and has hit upon a theory about supernova warning signals.<BR>
> > The local star just started giving off this warning signal, and the<BR>
> > intensity is escalating.<BR>
> ><BR>
<snip><BR>
> Or how about a recently-aired episode of "The Outer Limits"...a physicist<BR>
> realizes the Sun will go Nova and wipe out everything on Earth. He decides<BR>
> to spend the last few hours of Life with a girl he could never approach.<BR>
><BR>
> ONLY that the Nova turned out to be a great big flare.....<BR>
<BR>
I have only one thing to say :  "Inconstant Moon"<BR>
<BR>
Frankie<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 01:18:33 -1000<BR>
From: Lewis Roberts <lewis@mauigateway.net><BR>
Subject: Astronomy in the 57th Century<BR>
<BR>
Hi,<BR>
<BR>
I am back on the TML after a three year absence.  I dropped off the list when I<BR>
was writing my dissertation, but I finally got around to signing back on.  I am<BR>
now a staff astronomer at the Maui Space Surveillance System, a joint Air Force<BR>
Space Command/ Air Force Research Lab facility on Mt Haleakala on the island of<BR>
Maui in Hawaii.  Its pretty cool, though I haven't found any games going on. <BR>
Anyone on this list live in Hawaii let alone Maui? <BR>
<BR>
Anyway I figured I'd give you my take on astronomy in the Imperium. <BR>
<BR>
Since there are FTL starships, these will be used to explore anything nearby. <BR>
Lab ships will jump into any system with interesting<BR>
stars/planets/asteroids/comets etc and study them up close.  They will probably<BR>
be playing around with probes that are sent into the star itself.  These probes<BR>
won't survive, but they will be able to send back some information before they<BR>
melt.  <BR>
<BR>
So big telescopes will be used to study things that are too far away for anyone<BR>
to ever visit. Remember the known Traveller universe is a really tiny piece of<BR>
the Milky Way Galaxy. Examples are stars that don't have any nearby examples,<BR>
the galactic core, galactic halo objects, globular clusters, other galaxies,<BR>
quasars, intergalactic medium etc...<BR>
<BR>
How will they study these things; well the old standby of photons will still be<BR>
around.  These telescopes will be in space.  They will want to put the<BR>
telescopes beyond the last asteroid belt: asteroids tend to collide and release<BR>
dust which obscures IR telescopes, its called zodiacal dust. One idea is to put<BR>
the telescopes at the gravitational lens of a star, this will increase the<BR>
effective collecting area of the telescope.    Also this will get the<BR>
instruments away from any interference caused by the population or the star<BR>
itself.  If you are this far out, it will take too long to fly out there, so<BR>
ships will probably jump out to the site.  If you have to jump out, you might as<BR>
well put the observatory in deep space far from any star.  <BR>
<BR>
The telescopes themselves will be giant fragile instruments, that never could<BR>
survive in a gravitational field.  Many will be linked in long base line<BR>
interferometric arrays, which is pretty much what your standard PEMS is, but on<BR>
a much bigger scale; probably 10s or 100s of millions of kilometers across. <BR>
There will be hundreds of thousands of these telescopes in each array.  The<BR>
telescopes themselves will be sensitive across the entire electromagnetic range<BR>
(That's what FFS says PEMS can detect). I figure by Imperial times, they will<BR>
have near perfect detectors, this would be detectors that detect every photon<BR>
and can determine everything about that photon.  Each telescope would analyze<BR>
each photon and send the information back to a central processing lab, (probably<BR>
on tape, to avoid interfering with the data collection) which would combine the<BR>
data and produce the final results.  <BR>
<BR>
Photons won't be the only the only particle used to study the heavens. Today we<BR>
are just starting to build neutrino telescopes deep underground.  By Imperial<BR>
times, they will have figured out how to differentiate between neutrinos and<BR>
other exotic particles and will use the same telescope to study cosmic rays,<BR>
WIMPS (weakly interacting massive particles) etc.  I don't really know what<BR>
these things would look like, probably giant boxes with tons of electronics. <BR>
Nothing like a standard telescope. <BR>
<BR>
The biggest problem with the neutrino telescope is figuring out how to shield it<BR>
from the fusion power planet powering the observatory.  The observatory will be<BR>
too far from any star for solar power to work.  The astronomers will know where<BR>
the fusion power plant is and will be able to remove it from the image.   <BR>
<BR>
They will also have gravity wave telescopes, which also look nothing like a<BR>
conventional telescope.  These would probably look like giant space stations,<BR>
but with no human presence, except for the occasional repair.  These will<BR>
observe the gravity waves caused by objects in motion. <BR>
 <BR>
The biggest problem with astronomy will be the travel lag.  If the University of<BR>
Antares discovers a new phenomenon, it will be years before the schools on Terra<BR>
learn about it.  Imagine working on your dissertation for 6 years, only to get<BR>
the latest issue of the Publications of the Astronomical Society of Illesh and<BR>
find out someone proved you wrong four years ago.  <BR>
<BR>
I'd also imagine that the sheer cost of the observatories, limit them to only<BR>
about one or two a sector in the heart of the Imperium or other interstellar<BR>
states, while the frontier sectors don't have any.  <BR>
<BR>
Lewis Roberts<BR>
- -------------------------------------------------<BR>
Q:What do prisoners use to call each other?<BR>
A:Cell phones.<BR>
<BR>
lewis@mauigateway.net  <BR>
- -------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 13:49:01 +0200 (METDST)<BR>
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk><BR>
Subject: Re: Notes on building Heya<BR>
<BR>
Chris Seamans writes:<BR>
<BR>
>What I am saying is that I strongly disagree with Hans, who says that<BR>
>societies only sell their manufactured goods to worlds with similar TLs,<BR>
>which strikes me as odd and unrealistic.<BR>
<BR>
That wasn't what I said. Someone had argued that if high-TL societies<BR>
couldn't sell to lower-TL societies, they wouldn't have anyone to sell<BR>
to. I pointed out that this wasn't true; they could always sell to other<BR>
high-TL societies (they can trade with themselves, for that matter;<BR>
present-day Earth manages that quite nicely).<BR>
<BR>
What I did claim is that lower-TL societies don't buy very much higher-TL<BR>
equipment, for the simple reason that they don't produce enough valuable<BR>
surplus goods to pay for it. If they do produce enough (like a small<BR>
mining colony, which as Chris points out would be TL 0 by the 'locally<BR>
sustainable technology' definition that someone pointed out IS official,<BR>
worse luck) and bought all that high-TL equipment, then they would BE<BR>
high-TL themselves.<BR>
<BR>
Now that I've become aware of the MT definition, I shall have to consider<BR>
revising my stance, but my first gut reaction is "Official or not, it<BR>
still isn't a good definition".<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
      Hans Rancke<BR>
University of Copenhagen<BR>
     rancke@diku.dk<BR>
- ------------<BR>
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent<BR>
         events based on the individual situation."<BR>
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 21:47:39 +1000<BR>
From: "Katharine Whitchurch" <katts@globalfreeway.com.au><BR>
Subject: More Ochetate Rebellion stuff<BR>
<BR>
These are more rough notes.<BR>
<BR>
To recap, the fair (OK, dank, dark and depressing) world of Ochetate is held<BR>
within the iron paw of the brutal Mewey ruling class, and for Truth, Justice<BR>
and a Real Good Tax Deal on Exploiting Ochetate Belt the PCs are helping<BR>
them throw off the shackles of oppression.<BR>
<BR>
Three main points : number one, the Mewey autocrats have an orbital fort,<BR>
consisting of a big 500 MJ laser array behind about 10 cm of Crystaliron,<BR>
number two the Mewey Occupation Forces consist of about a battallion of<BR>
TL8-9 Grav Infantry (vs some fishermen with spear guns), plus an unknown<BR>
number of spies and secret police agents, and number three the Imperium<BR>
really doesnt mind Mewey oppressing Ochetate, provided they remember not to<BR>
side with the Sword Worlds in any little contretemps regarding who runs<BR>
these subsectors anyway.<BR>
<BR>
OK, first things first.<BR>
<BR>
"Who is in with us on this one ?"<BR>
<BR>
There is a resistance infrastructure on Ochetate, but it is fairly low-key.<BR>
Presumably the PCs have a contact (possibly one of the PCs) who is a<BR>
believer in the cause of a free and independant Ochetate, and they can help<BR>
put them in touch with sympathisers.<BR>
<BR>
Obvious candidates include the docks workers at Mhong Nuga, the workers on<BR>
the oil rigs, and students and faculty at the Mhong Nuga Technical<BR>
Institute.<BR>
<BR>
It is also possible that a network of off-world Ochetaters exists - a small<BR>
amount of people manage to emigrate, often via a Free Trader with an<BR>
inaccurate passenger manifest. Some of these may be prepared to support an<BR>
effort to free their homeworld.<BR>
<BR>
In all cases, a healthy level of paranoia should be displayed, as the<BR>
Planetary Administration does not look kindly on dissidents, let alone<BR>
independance activists.<BR>
<BR>
"Where can we buy a Grav Tank or three, with No Questions Asked"<BR>
<BR>
The obvious candidates are Collace (TL D, LL3), Trexalon (TLC, LL1), Dallia<BR>
(TL9, LL3), Mertactor (TL B, LL 2) and Singer (TL 6, LL4).<BR>
<BR>
OK, Singer is probably a bad place for Grav Tanks, but you never know when<BR>
5000 bolt-action .303 rifles may come in handy, and a TL4 75mm gun is better<BR>
than no 75mm gun at all.<BR>
<BR>
Note that Trexalon and Singer are outside the Imperial sphere of influence.<BR>
<BR>
"Whats an End User Certificate ?"<BR>
<BR>
The problem with all this is that, given the Sword Worlds, the Ine Givar and<BR>
all that, the various Imperial intelligence agencies (including Imperial<BR>
Naval Intelligence and, frankly, most of the IISS) tend to take an interest<BR>
when someone without the correct connections starts looking like they are<BR>
equipping a private army.<BR>
<BR>
Basically, someone suspects something is up on any given deal if a roll of 2<BR>
dice is less than the expenditure in megacredits. Modify for good excuses or<BR>
decent planning (eg buying "grav tractors" on Collace, armour plate on<BR>
Dallia and Fusion Guns on Trexalon, then welding it together yourself. OK,<BR>
so maybe thats a bad example). Bad failure indicates that at least one<BR>
Imperial Intelligence agency thinks the PCs are Ine Givar or Sword World<BR>
agent provacteurs.<BR>
<BR>
"So we need a Meson Gun"<BR>
<BR>
As far as I see it, there are three basic methods to deal with an orbital<BR>
fort. The first is through a Meson Gun. The second is by using hi-speed<BR>
Kinetic Kill Missiles. The third is by wangling your way aboard the fort,<BR>
and then in effect hijacking it.<BR>
<BR>
The first is pretty tough, as merchant-ship size Meson Guns havent really<BR>
been seen since the Good Old Days of the Nth Interstellar Wars. It is<BR>
possible that one could be custom-built somewhere, but it would certainly<BR>
attract the interest of Imperial Intelligence. If you managed it, then you<BR>
put it in the bowels of your trader ship, mosey along to Ochetate and then<BR>
go ker-blowie at the fort from any angle on passive targetting.<BR>
<BR>
The second is a much better idea. Basically, to home-build a Little Bubba<BR>
you need a big Heplar drive, a small fusion plant to prime the Heplar and<BR>
about a ton of superdense ball bearings. Basically, you get up to some speed<BR>
via the bus vehicle (probably a Free Trader using thruster plates - five<BR>
hours thrust at one gee is 7200 * 5 * 10/1000 or 350 km/second) in the<BR>
outsystem, then release the bus to coast in for a while. Once it gets close<BR>
enough, fire up the 10 G drive, then when you hit the correct range, release<BR>
the ball bearings. One gram ball bearings at 3-500 km per second hit like a<BR>
small nuke, and the laser on the Orbital Fort has to get all of them.<BR>
<BR>
The third is also possible - basically, it requires winning the maintainence<BR>
contract for the orbital fort, or otherwise getting the Mewey administration<BR>
to let you on board (it is possible that a con involving faked press<BR>
credentials could work, although TNS would not be happy if their good name<BR>
was used in such a scheme). Successfully seizing the orbital fort has the<BR>
advantage of making the next stage much easier.<BR>
<BR>
"We have ten days to secure the planet"<BR>
<BR>
The Mewey Occupation Forces have already made short work of several revolts<BR>
over the last several hundred years, however if enough materiel can be<BR>
imported from off-world, then the spark of revolt could grow to become<BR>
self-sustaining.<BR>
<BR>
A better option is probably combining an arms shipment to rebels (or even<BR>
potential rebels) with quick surgical strike aimed at the capital of Muong<BR>
Nuga, aimed at  destroying the infrastructure of the Mewey Administration. A<BR>
secondary but important objective is to meet with the Imperial Legate on the<BR>
planet, in order to show de facto control of the planet.<BR>
<BR>
"OK, so we won. What do we do next ?"<BR>
<BR>
Once the planet is secured, it will be a race against time between Free<BR>
Ochetate and Mewey, with each trying to gain diplomatic and practical<BR>
recognition for it's way of looking at things.<BR>
<BR>
If Mewey wins, then an attempt to re-take Ochetate, probably by off-world<BR>
mercenaries, can be expected.<BR>
<BR>
If Ochetate manages to get the support of enough of the Imperial<BR>
bureaucracies, or a megacorp, or of several smaller independant worlds, then<BR>
Mewey's threats can be revealed as bluff. Pre-planning will be critical on<BR>
this one - a strategic briefing to the correct people could literally be the<BR>
difference between victory via a battle that never happens ("Delgado LIC<BR>
have just assigned a Planetary Representitive to Ochetate, and have released<BR>
a statement to the markets on Glisten and Collace as saying 'It is our<BR>
expectation that the resolution of this long-running issue will allow a<BR>
climate favourable for trade and investment. We are investigating several<BR>
promising export lines, and expect to make a fuller statement within 2<BR>
months' ") and a brutal invasion followed by a long counter-insurgency<BR>
campaign.<BR>
<BR>
Ian Whitchurch<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 14:44:14 +0200 (METDST)<BR>
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk><BR>
Subject: Re: Notes on building Heya<BR>
<BR>
Chris Seamans writes:<BR>
<BR>
>Hans Rancke-Madsen writes:<BR>
<BR>
>>Chris:<BR>
>>>It ceases to be useful simply because it is no longer considered to be the<BR>
>>>arbitrary abstraction that it actually is.<BR>
>><BR>
>>It actually is? You have an official, self-consistent explanation of just<BR>
>>what TL means? Could you please share it with the rest of us?<BR>
> <BR>
>Before I go on, I'd like to take a moment to mention that I would greatly<BR>
>appreciate it if you would learn to handle yourself in a friendly<BR>
>discussion. Keep up your condescending tone, and I will put you into my<BR>
>killfile. Your attitude is completely uncalled for.<BR>
<BR>
On the one hand I admit that I owe you an apology because there _does_<BR>
exist an official (although IMO not self-consistent) explanation of just<BR>
what TL means. I was unaware of this until Peter Newman pointed it out.<BR>
So I was wrong to think no such definition existed.<BR>
<BR>
On the other hand I found, and still find, my attitude completely called<BR>
for. You were presenting your own opinion as a proven fact, with no ifs,<BR>
buts, or maybes. That ticks me off no end, and I think my sarcasm mild<BR>
enough considering the provication.<BR>
 <BR>
>With that being said, no, I don't have a self-consistent explanation of<BR>
>just what TL means, because I haven't felt the need to generate one. The<BR>
>"official" explanations seem to just muddy the water even more and are<BR>
>often contradictory.<BR>
<BR>
And you don't find this attitude incompatible with an unequivocal statement<BR>
about what TL actually is?<BR>
<BR>
>A TL rating is a game mechanic. It is an arbitrary number that serves as a<BR>
>"stand in" for the development of the world. <BR>
<BR>
A TL supposedly tells something about the technology to be found on a world.<BR>
Just what is not, IMO, too clear, but whatever it is, there should be a<BR>
direct correlation. It may be vague and not too well defined, but it is not<BR>
arbitrary.<BR>
<BR>
>It's an attempt to view the technological development of the Earth in a<BR>
>linear fashion and then map that same development on to other planets.<BR>
<BR>
But technology is to a large extent linear. Some technologies do depend on<BR>
others. To view Earth's technological development as the only one possible<BR>
is, I agree, a mistake, but if the system isn't taken too literally, it can,<BR>
IMO, be quite useful.<BR>
<BR>
>It is, out of necessity, arbitrary, and there are many gaps and holes. <BR>
<BR>
Ah, I see what you mean by arbitrary. Yes, the individual levels are fairly<BR>
arbitrary, although not as much as you claim. But once the measuring stick<BR>
is defined, the individual TLs do mean something.<BR>
<BR>
>As a game mechanic, it is abstract. It is removed from concrete reality to<BR>
>a large extent because it's difficult to map the technological progress of<BR>
>the earth by way of a single digit. <BR>
<BR>
I have to disagree. It is highly imprecise, yes, but you can make some<BR>
deductions from it. Some technologies depend on other technologies.<BR>
<BR>
>>>It's foolish to believe that tech level tells you anything more than the<BR>
>>>sorts of things which may typically be found on the world.<BR>
>><BR>
>>And that's exactly what I think it tells us. So I expect the farmers of a<BR>
>>TL 5 world to use TL 5 techniques. Though if they were a minor section of<BR>
>>the population I wouldn't balk at TL 6 or even more.<BR>
> <BR>
>The adventurers may typically find TL5 goods on the world. Heavy trucks and<BR>
>freight trains produced locally (or produced on other worlds for TL5<BR>
>markets). A character shopping on Heya for weapons is more likely to run<BR>
>across a revolver than a plasma rifle. Once you head out to the farms,<BR>
>however, you start finding high-tech seeds that increase yields (as easy to<BR>
>import as low-tech seeds, incidentally),<BR>
<BR>
But they're NOT as easy to import. They are more expensive. That's the main<BR>
point. You can't import if no one will sell to you at prices you want to pay.<BR>
<BR>
>>No it doesn't. It just tells us that the majority of people on a TL 5 world<BR>
>>does not buy much stuff from high-tech worlds. Because if they did, it<BR>
>>would be a higher-tech world.<BR>
> <BR>
>Alright. Fair enough. Let's turn the tables then: What defines a tech level?<BR>
>If you're able to use the term so casually, surely you must have an idea of<BR>
>how it works. When does a TL5 world become a TL6 world? Is there one *major*<BR>
>development that separates TL1 from TL2, or is it a bunch of smaller<BR>
>developments? Please don't give an answer like, "a TL5 world becomes TL6<BR>
>when it begins using TL6 technology on a large scale". What does TL signify,<BR>
>specifically?<BR>
<BR>
I'm sorry, but that is the answer. If you'll wait till I have the proper<BR>
books with me, I can give you a more specific answer, but it will just be<BR>
the same answer with bells and whistles added. There are things you can do<BR>
and artifacts you can build at TL 6 that you can't do and build at TL 5.<BR>
When a society do those things and use those artifacts on a large scale,<BR>
it is TL 6.<BR>
 <BR>
>>>It depends on the amount of people who would be involved in these tertiary<BR>
>>>occupations.<BR>
>><BR>
>>Yes, and I think a sizable part of the population would be involved in<BR>
>>tertiary occupations even if it is assumed that it has almost no none-food<BR>
>>primary and secondary occupations (which I think is a very iffy assumption,<BR>
>>but not impossible).<BR>
> <BR>
>Fair enough, do you have any notion of how to go about dealing with the<BR>
>situation?<BR>
<BR>
Sorry, I seem to have lost the thread here. Something about how large a<BR>
portion of Heya's 70 million inhabitants that could be farmers, right?<BR>
Well, I suppose you could look up some demographical tables for various<BR>
Western World countries between the two world wars and add up all those<BR>
engaged in any primary and secondary occupation. That would give you a<BR>
figure to start with.<BR>
 <BR>
>>I think the best way to rationalize TL involves a very pragmatic<BR>
>>interpretation: TL indicates the technology in use locally. It doesn't<BR>
>>resolve all problems, but it resolves more than any other interpretation<BR>
>>I've seen.<BR>
><BR>
>It doesn't resolve any problems. It just shifts the question from "what is<BR>
>tech level good for" to "what does each tech level signify".<BR>
 <BR>
There are tables in various Traveller books that tells us just that. They<BR>
are far from complete, but they are a pretty good start.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
      Hans Rancke<BR>
University of Copenhagen<BR>
     rancke@diku.dk<BR>
- ------------<BR>
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent<BR>
         events based on the individual situation."<BR>
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 08:52:11 -0400<BR>
From: "Alvin" <aplummer@idirect.com><BR>
Subject: World population limits<BR>
<BR>
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<BR>
=20<BR>
<BR>
[ The following is adapted from<BR>
http://www.theforce.net/swtc/astro.html#coruscant=20<BR>
which provided a technical commentary of Coruscant,<BR>
a planet whose surface is 90% covered by cities.<BR>
<BR>
Certain Traveller referees may want to adapt this for<BR>
Sylea in their Imperial Campaign.  If so, you *may* have<BR>
to increase the Imperial TL: you *will* have to drastically<BR>
increase the size of the Imperium, the other interstellar<BR>
governments, and Charted Space to keep the "traveller level"<BR>
of population density in space.  Both Asimov's Trantor<BR>
and Lucas' Coruscant was meant as capitals of a *galaxy-wide*<BR>
empire of millions and millions of systems, not a mere 11,000! ]<BR>
<BR>
Warning: quotes are dramatically paraphased and edited for<BR>
clarity and brevity.<BR>
<BR>
"The typical population density for suburban areas is 10,000=20<BR>
- - 20,000 per sq. km.  If Imperial City were only as heavily<BR>
populated as the suburbs, the population would be in the=20<BR>
order of nine trillion persons.<BR>
<BR>
Of course, Imperial City is not inhabited in the same way as<BR>
the suburbs: instead of single-level buildings with gardens,<BR>
Imperial City is composed of spires averging two miles tall.<BR>
The population density is much higher than 10,000, suggesting<BR>
that the population of Coruscant must be at least of the order<BR>
of several thousand trillion, no less than several hundred trillion.<BR>
<BR>
Some claim that Coruscant's population is only 650 billion,<BR>
but this is obviously false: if this was true and the density<BR>
was about 10,000 per  sq.km. then only 1% of the planetary=20<BR>
surface would be city covered, not 90% as we see in the=20<BR>
Phantom Menance.<BR>
<BR>
With the high TL's available in the Star Wars universe,=20<BR>
recycling tech and material imports could keep the city alive.<BR>
Even without this tech, food could still be shipped in.<BR>
Assuming several kg's of food per citizen per day, the need's=20<BR>
of the entire planet-city can bemet by either a large number of=20<BR>
small ships or a small number of large ships.  Even without any=20<BR>
recycling or indoor agriculture, the requirements could be<BR>
met with the following solutions:<BR>
<BR>
1 ship per day, with cargo capasity of 15 km cube, 'sky area'<BR>
2 * 10^8 m2<BR>
<BR>
1 thousand ships per day, capasity per ship 1.5 km cube, 'sky area'<BR>
2 * 10^9 m2<BR>
<BR>
1 million ships per day, capasity per ship 150m cube, 'sky area'<BR>
2 * 10 ^ 10 m2<BR>
<BR>
As the total sky area of the planet is 5 * 10^14 m2 (assuming=20<BR>
an Earth-sized world ), there is no way "the sky could turn black=20<BR>
with ships".<BR>
<BR>
Alvin Plummer<BR>
<BR>
- ------=_NextPart_000_0016_01BF9EDC.3B79E060<BR>
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"><BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><HEAD><BR>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =<BR>
http-equiv=3DContent-Type><BR>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2722.2800" name=3DGENERATOR><BR>
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<DIV><BR>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><BR>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><BR>
<DIV>[ The following is adapted from<BR>
<A=20href=3D"http://www.theforce.net/swtc/astro.html#coruscant">http://www.the=force.net/swtc/astro.html#coruscant=20<BR>
which provided a technical commentary of Coruscant,<BR>
a planet =whose=20surface is 90% covered by cities.</DIV><DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><DIV>Certain Traveller referees may want to adapt this for<BR>
Sylea in =their=20Imperial Campaign.&nbsp; If so, you *may* have<BR>
to increase the =Imperial TL:=20you *will* have to drastically<BR>
increase the size of the Imperium, the =other=20interstellar<BR>
governments, and Charted Space to keep the "traveller=20level"<BR>
of population density in space.&nbsp; Both Asimov's =Trantor<BR>
and=20Lucas' Coruscant was meant as capitals of a *galaxy-wide*<BR>
empire of =millions=20and millions of systems, not a mere 11,000! ]</DIV><DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><DIV>Warning: quotes are dramatically paraphased and edited =for<BR>
clarity and=20brevity.</DIV><DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><DIV>"The typical population density for suburban areas is 10,000 <BR>
- =20,000=20per sq. km.&nbsp; If Imperial City were only as heavily<BR>
populated as =the=20suburbs, the population would be in the <BR>
order of nine trillion=20persons.</DIV><DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><DIV>Of course, Imperial City is not inhabited in the same way as<BR>
the =suburbs: instead of single-level buildings with gardens,<BR>
Imperial =City is=20composed of spires averging two miles tall.<BR>
The population density is =much=20higher than 10,000, suggesting<BR>
that the population of Coruscant must =be at=20least of the order<BR>
of several thousand trillion, no less than several =hundred=20trillion.</DIV><DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><DIV>Some claim that Coruscant's population is only 650 billion,<BR>
but =this is=20obviously false: if this was true and the density<BR>
was about 10,000 =per&nbsp;=20sq.km. then only 1% of the planetary <BR>
surface would be city covered, =not 90%=20as we see in the <BR>
Phantom Menance.</DIV><DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><DIV>With the high TL's available in the Star Wars universe, =<BR>
recycling tech=20and material imports could keep the city alive.<BR>
Even without this =tech, food=20could still be shipped in.<BR>
Assuming several kg's of food per citizen =per day,=20the need's <BR>
of the entire planet-city can bemet by either a large =number of=20<BR>
small ships or a small number of large ships.&nbsp; Even without any =<BR>
recycling or indoor agriculture, the requirements could be<BR>
met =with the=20following solutions:</DIV><DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><DIV>1 ship per day, with cargo capasity of 15 km cube, 'sky area'<BR>
2 =* 10^8=20m2</DIV><DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><DIV>1 thousand ships per day, capasity per ship 1.5 km cube, 'sky =area'<BR>
2 *=2010^9 m2</DIV><DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><DIV>1 million ships per day, capasity per ship 150m cube, 'sky =area'<BR>
2 * 10=20^ 10 m2</DIV><DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><DIV>As the total sky area of the planet is 5 * 10^14 m2 (assuming =<BR>
an=20Earth-sized world ), there is no way "the sky could turn black <BR>
with=20ships".</DIV><DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><DIV>Alvin Plummer</DIV></DIV><BR>
<BR>
- ------=_NextPart_000_0016_01BF9EDC.3B79E060--<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2252<BR>
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Traveller-digest      Wednesday, April 5 2000      Volume 1999 : Number 2253<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Disparate TLs<BR>
Re: More Ochetate [sic] Rebellion stuff<BR>
Re: Disparate TLs<BR>
Imperial Variant: The Ismya Commonwealth<BR>
Re: Supernova<BR>
Re: Type-Ss with a spinal mount meson gun?<BR>
Re: TL/Pixie<BR>
Re: 10 foot ceilings (was re: Life support)<BR>
Re: Grav mechanics(was:Re: Grav Powered Floating Cities)<BR>
Re: GT-Q: Ground Penetrating Radar and other toys<BR>
Liverpool shop<BR>
Re: Disparate TLs<BR>
Re: GT-Q: Ground Penetrating Radar and other toys<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 15:03:45 +0200 (METDST)<BR>
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk><BR>
Subject: Re: Disparate TLs<BR>
<BR>
Ian Ferguson writes:<BR>
> <BR>
>Hans Rancke-Madsen writes:<BR>
>>>It is hard to defend the disparity in TL between nearby worlds in the OTU.<BR>
>><BR>
>>I disagree. I find it perfectly explainable. The problem is that the<BR>
>>usual argument to the contrary leaves out one crucial bit. It goes something<BR>
>>like this "Given the cost of transportation in the Imperium, any world that<BR>
>>is not interdicted can buy TL 15 equipment". And the crucial bit that is<BR>
>>left out? "...provided they produce something offworlders will pay a<BR>
>>reasonable price for".<BR>
>>"Sure you can buy this state-of-the-art laser rifle. All it'll cost you is<BR>
>>a thousand Crimps."What will you pay me for a cartload of ragabatu roots?"<BR>
>>"One Crimp." "Never mind."<BR>
> <BR>
>I don't buy this argument. When a PC arrives on a TL 6 world, the price of<BR>
>a rifle is Cr 200 (IIRC). Let's say that world has a standing army that uses<BR>
>5,000,000 rifles. How hard can it be for the local government to pay the PCs<BR>
>Cr 3,000 (a 100% markup, IIRC) each for 333,333 laser rifles? <BR>
<BR>
Maybe very hard, maybe not hard at all (see below). But even if they could,<BR>
maybey they prefer 5 million riflemen to 333,333 laseroni (to coin a word<BR>
for laser-armed soldiers (cf. carabinieri))?<BR>
<BR>
>These are Imperial credits that the PCs are buying and selling with, LBB2<BR>
>certainly lets players buy and sell freely on most any world.<BR>
<BR>
PCs usually don't deal in cargoes that represent more than a fraction of<BR>
a world's GWP (When they do, using unmodified LBB rules produce ludicrous<BR>
results; an old referee of mine once allowed us to sell 69 million-credit<BR>
computers, bought at 30% of basic price, for 300% of basic price on a<BR>
world with a population level of 4. He lived to regret it ;-).<BR>
<BR>
>Even so, if it takes 1000 cartloads of ragabatu roots to buy a laser rifle,<BR>
>perhaps the world can produce a few million cartloads. What about this<BR>
>copper mine here, how much will you offer for good copper ore (in Imperial<BR>
>credits, please).  Perhaps a Megacorp would like to invest in developing<BR>
>this resource, with TL 9+ equipment.<BR>
<BR>
And perhaps the locals either don't have exploitable resources that would<BR>
tempt offworlders to invest or they are satisfied with life the way it is<BR>
and they buy luxury foodstuff for whatever Imperial currency they do get.<BR>
Or they buy equipment for an elite part of their army and lets the<BR>
civilians make do with local products.<BR>
 <BR>
>Even this is a gross simplification.  Exactly what is keeping a TL 5 world<BR>
>from smuggling a few science texts from a TL 6 world and upping its own TL?<BR>
<BR>
Nothing if they can afford the upgrades. But TL 6 societies DO exist, so<BR>
something IS preventing them from doing it. Maybe they are satisfied with<BR>
the way things are.<BR>
<BR>
>Even a poor TL 5 world could probably scrape together enough Imperial<BR>
>credits to import a little TL 6 manufacturing equipment assuming that<BR>
>the pop is high enough). How about bringing in a few scientists/<BR>
>engineers/etc. and letting them live like kings as long as they help<BR>
>upgrade the TL? <BR>
<BR>
Sure, if they want to badly enough. But evidently not everybody in the TU<BR>
wants to badly enough.<BR>
 <BR>
<BR>
      Hans Rancke<BR>
University of Copenhagen<BR>
     rancke@diku.dk<BR>
- ------------<BR>
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent<BR>
         events based on the individual situation."<BR>
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 15:10:12 +0200 (METDST)<BR>
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk><BR>
Subject: Re: More Ochetate [sic] Rebellion stuff<BR>
<BR>
Ian Whitchurch writes:<BR>
<BR>
>To recap, the fair (OK, dank, dark and depressing) world of Ochetate...<BR>
<BR>
The correct spelling is still 'Ochecate'.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
      Hans Rancke<BR>
University of Copenhagen<BR>
     rancke@diku.dk<BR>
- ------------<BR>
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent<BR>
         events based on the individual situation."<BR>
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 09:11:24 -0400<BR>
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU><BR>
Subject: Re: Disparate TLs<BR>
<BR>
Hans wrote:<BR>
>Maybe very hard, maybe not hard at all (see below). But even if they could,<BR>
>maybey they prefer 5 million riflemen to 333,333 laseroni (to coin a word<BR>
>for laser-armed soldiers (cf. carabinieri))?<BR>
<BR>
Laseroni? Sounds like some marketing drone's attempt to sell<BR>
high-tech pasta.<BR>
<BR>
Rice-a-roni, Beef-a-roni, Lase-a-roni...  ;-)<BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 09:19:50 -0400<BR>
From: "Alvin" <aplummer@idirect.com><BR>
Subject: Imperial Variant: The Ismya Commonwealth<BR>
<BR>
[ As you could guess, Madoc subsector has *nothing* to do <BR>
with what follows -  but the Ismya religion does.<BR>
<BR>
I am using the Empress Wave as the main trigger event, rather <BR>
than conversion of the Imperial population, a war, or<BR>
a religious race with a high sustained growth rate.  More <BR>
importantly, I am assuming that the Empress Wave pernamently <BR>
breaks up the unity of every race: even the Ismya Vilani that <BR>
dominate this variant are more likely to fight each other than <BR>
anyone else. ]<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
1200 - 1300 Imperial<BR>
<BR>
* The Empress Wave destroys the Zhodani Consulate,<BR>
numerous Vargr nations, and eventually the Domain of <BR>
Deneb.  Those who can eventually flee to Vland, but<BR>
the majority are left behind to suffer the effects of the wave.<BR>
<BR>
1300 - 1500 (A.D. 5820 - 6020)<BR>
<BR>
The Third Imperium - and all the other interstellar states, including<BR>
the Hiver Federation - is destroyed by the Empress Wave.<BR>
The large-scale, top-down social structures are broken down<BR>
first, then the smaller organizations.  Internal, disorganized<BR>
fighting is epidemic across Charted Space.  The average TL falls<BR>
to about TL 7, with a very few worlds at TL 8-A.<BR>
<BR>
A.D. 6000 - 6500<BR>
<BR>
The Ismya Vilani - a culture of theocratic, Mosaic code Christians - <BR>
manage to both be decentralized (to survive as greater, more <BR>
organized ideologies perish before the Wave)<BR>
and carefully preserve earlier knowledge (thanks to their <BR>
conservatvism and respect for the past).  As the effect's of <BR>
the Empress Wave fade away, a cluster of Ismya worlds have <BR>
regained an industrial level of technology; by 6300, Jumpdrive <BR>
technology has been regained; by 6500, a thin network of jump <BR>
routes connect the various Ismya planets and communities <BR>
across Diaspora.<BR>
<BR>
A.D. 6500-7000<BR>
<BR>
At Sufren, the many Ismya systems established the Ismya <BR>
Commonwealth ( 023-6511, or the 23 day of the year 6511 A.D. )  <BR>
to govern relations between themselves, and secure common goals.<BR>
A strong preference for high population growth rates leads to the <BR>
founding of colonies throughout the old Third Imperium, excluding <BR>
the regions behind the Claw.<BR>
<BR>
By 6700, the Commonwealth has patchy presence in all of the <BR>
same sectors previously run by the First Imperium:  while their <BR>
dominance of space is unchallanged, numerous world populations <BR>
are completely outside of Commonwealth control.  General  <BR>
TL's rise to C (TL F on three Commonwealth systems), but <BR>
there is no desire to extend their technology beyond the Third <BR>
Imperial level: most worlds are at the TL 7-8 level.<BR>
<BR>
***** What happend to the neighbours? *****<BR>
<BR>
Numerous small and mid-sized expeditions are sent to to every <BR>
sector of Charted Space between 6700-6900 returning certain <BR>
general findings.<BR>
<BR>
* The Vargr bounced back even faster than the Ismya Vilani:<BR>
by 6500, their tech levels and populations have returned to<BR>
pre-Wave levels, but it's hard to find even a single unified<BR>
planet: there isn't any interstellar Vargr governments at all.<BR>
<BR>
* The Zhodani were the first to be ripped apart by the Wave:<BR>
the survivng worlds are at a loss, expecting the long-dead <BR>
Consulate to save them from their poverty.  On many worlds<BR>
the psionic nobility is gone, at others the rulers pretend to<BR>
be psionic, at still others the psions are fighting each other<BR>
for power.<BR>
<BR>
* Most residents of Imperial space are just trying to hold things <BR>
together on their own ball of dirt.  However, there are a few <BR>
regions of higher technology in Ilelish, Vland, Antares <BR>
Sylea (ex-Core), and Delphi: they are primarily focused on <BR>
internal development, but could eventually be <BR>
contenders for the title of "The Fourth Imperium".<BR>
<BR>
* The Solomani Sphere is a patchwork quilt of low-tech <BR>
systems, studded with a high-tech (TL 9-C) jewel here and <BR>
there.  Trade is vigourous, but the political situation chaotic.<BR>
Like the Vilani, the Solomani no longer see themselves as a<BR>
single, united people anymore: everything is shattered into<BR>
"Terran Solomani", "Outer Rim Solomani" - and some are<BR>
leaving out the "Solomani" modifier from their racial identity.<BR>
<BR>
* The old Aslan clan system - the ruling 29 clans of the<BR>
Tlaukhu - is long gone, and even the Aslan traditions<BR>
have fractured and diverged wildly.  Still, several wildly<BR>
scattered worlds are again taking tentative steps to the<BR>
stars again.<BR>
<BR>
* The Hiver's were using a continual chain of 'hand-shaking<BR>
diplomatic embassies' to keep the Hiver's genetic expression <BR>
consistent across the Federation.  Most Hivers are no longer<BR>
interested in the survival of the race as a whole, just their own <BR>
genetic heritage.  Most Hivers are more interested in<BR>
developing their own worlds and systems, rather than <BR>
immediately found colonies across space.<BR>
<BR>
* The K'kree have failed to even regain jumpdrive <BR>
technology: their rigid culture was broken completely by the <BR>
Wave, and even their fanatical hatred for carnivores (that <BR>
most had never seen since the Wave) hasn't been enough <BR>
to drive them back to space.<BR>
<BR>
And in the meantime, the Ismya themselves don't look so<BR>
good.  The Commonwealth is an alliance based on religion,<BR>
not political, military or economic interests.  With such a thin<BR>
thread uniting the member systems, it's always on the edge<BR>
of breaking up, and unified military action is nearly impossible:<BR>
it's hard enough to get a mutual defence system to work.<BR>
<BR>
***** Problems within the Commonwealth *****<BR>
<BR>
Right now, the Commonwealth is trying to upgrade all of<BR>
it's systems to TL F, but's it's real hard going.  Moreover,<BR>
to satisfy their member's need to expand and yet avoid <BR>
clashing with each other in Mosaic-style wars, new <BR>
colonies are kept widely spaced from each other, two <BR>
or three per subsector.  A world in each subsector is <BR>
chosen as the subsector capital, and the bulk of the <BR>
immigrating colonists is shipped there: a naval, X-boat <BR>
way station and scout base is usually located there, as well.<BR>
The only form of money accepted as payment for taxes is<BR>
gold or silver: and the Commonwealth government is not<BR>
permitted to go into debt, excepting a military war for <BR>
survival.<BR>
<BR>
***** The Commonwealth Government *****<BR>
<BR>
The Ismya Commonwealth 'government' is based in the <BR>
Commonwealth Chambers on Sufren (Sufren:Diaspora <BR>
A686AA6-C in A.D. 7000).  This is primarily the bureaucratic <BR>
centre of the Commonwealth: the head offices of the <BR>
Dpartment of Taxation, Righteousness, War, Colonization, <BR>
Justice, Treaties, and Commerce is located here.  The legal <BR>
system is divided into "Advisory Regulations" which are <BR>
guidelines - not rules - for interactions between soverign <BR>
Commonwealth members, and "Law", essentially the <BR>
Mosaic Code, which is enforced with rigor by the Anointed, <BR>
the post-Wave Ismya priesthood.<BR>
<BR>
All new tax levels, treaty commitments among member systems <BR>
and with powers outside of the Commonwealth, colonization <BR>
and exploration endeavors, and commerce guidelines must be <BR>
O.K.'ed by the Chamber of Stewards.  Each Steward must be <BR>
elected by a simple majority/plurality vote of the Ismya Christians <BR>
in the system in question, and represent's his entire system for a <BR>
single ten-year term.   The Chamber of Stewards used to be based <BR>
on Sufren, but now moves around all the major systems of the <BR>
Commonwealth, remaining on a single worlds for only three years.  <BR>
The Lord Steward is elected by his fellow peers for a two-year <BR>
period: he merely gains some weak, never-used emergency powers <BR>
and serves as a ceremonial Head of State: most citizens of the <BR>
Commonwealth don't know or care who the Lord Steward is.<BR>
<BR>
The military is strictly a system issue: mutual defence treaties and<BR>
standardization of strategy, tactic's, training, and equipment is about <BR>
all the Commonwealth government can do.  The supposed senior<BR>
officer of the Commonwealth, the StarLord, is solely concerned<BR>
about long-term strategic issues, trying to shelter his tax revenue<BR>
from relentless attacks, and keeping his member systems from raiding <BR>
each other.<BR>
<BR>
The Department of Righteousness is completely dominated by<BR>
Mosaic-style Judges, all of whom are also Anointed religious <BR>
professionals.  They decide whenever the Commonwealth should <BR>
go to war, not the StarLord or the Chamber of Stewards.  They<BR>
apply and interpret the Law, and insure that private missionary <BR>
organizations get the information they need to bring in more souls<BR>
to the Faith.   This department insures that Orthodoxy is enforced, <BR>
heresy punished, and open blasphemers singled out to be killed<BR>
by members of the Department of Justice.  Finally, they decide <BR>
when the worst punishment the Church can inflict - excommunication <BR>
from the Church, and exclusion from Holy Communion - is justified, <BR>
and keep a registry of Church members, elders, Anointed, and <BR>
excommunicated heretics on files distributed to every member world.<BR>
<BR>
According to both law and custom, all government officals must be<BR>
believing Ismya men, of good standing in the Church.  All must<BR>
be of a good reputation, and a good leader of their family, of at least<BR>
upper-middle class means and free of debts or other financial <BR>
impedements.<BR>
<BR>
With the relentlessly expanding population - the Ismya are<BR>
already the most largest single religion in Charted Space, and <BR>
Urardinka Vilani (Ismya Vilani, decended from the original <BR>
believers in Diaspora) the largest branch of humaniti - the<BR>
largest projects of the Commonwealth involves prepping <BR>
colonies for occupation and terraforming suitable worlds.  <BR>
Additional projects includes acting as an information exchange <BR>
for member worlds, a co-ordination centre for military action, <BR>
a adjudicator for trade & territorial disputes, and - most <BR>
importantly - a facilitator for the continual expansion and <BR>
unity of the Ismya Christian Church.<BR>
<BR>
***** Other nearby interstellar governments *****<BR>
<BR>
Most of the competition for good colony worlds comes<BR>
from interstellar competitors in Ilelish, Vland, Antares, Sylea <BR>
(ex-Core), and Delphi: systems just beginning to reenter interstellar<BR>
space can be found in every sector of Imperial space.  Of course,<BR>
the world may be occupied already, quite possibily by a people <BR>
capable of putting up a stiff defense against invasion.<BR>
<BR>
Basically, the Commonwealth let's it's member systems get into<BR>
any fight they want to, but they will only get involved in <BR>
defensive operations of formal member worlds or offical <BR>
Commonwealth colonies.  There is isn't any Commonwealth <BR>
military, just member worlds who have made their forces<BR>
available, due to treaty commitments or a financial deal:<BR>
mercenaries are commonly used.  <BR>
<BR>
The Commonwealth generally prefers to avoid military<BR>
action: there is so many empty systems open for the picking<BR>
that it's a waste of Ismya blood and treasure to pick a war on <BR>
someone or another.  When a war *is* declared, it's fought <BR>
with explicitly genocidal goals: as every major war fought <BR>
by the Commonwealth has been won by the Ismya, very few <BR>
governments care to physically attack a member world directly.  <BR>
Moreover, there are major plans being laid for a more intensive <BR>
use of available worlds to house the growing popuation, <BR>
instead of spreading out colonies in a hard-to-defend sprawl <BR>
across Imperial space.<BR>
<BR>
 <BR>
Alvin Plummer<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 01:23:54 +1200<BR>
From: a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz<BR>
Subject: Re: Supernova<BR>
<BR>
On 5 Apr 00, at 7:46, Brian Quirt wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> > Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
> > >So by the time you detect the neutrino pulse, it's too late.<BR>
> > > A short moment of silence, as everybody digests the meaning of<BR>
<BR>
> Wait a moment here. Are we talking about the same neutrinos? The<BR>
> essentially (albeit not quite) massless particles that have almost zero<BR>
> chance of ever interacting with ANY normal matter (such that the<BR>
> neutrino flux from the sun is essentially identical on both sides of the<BR>
> world- no measureable number of neutrinos are absorbed by travelling<BR>
> through the earth). How much damage could they cause? Also, what are we<BR>
> looking at in the way of a neutrino pulse? How intense? At this point,<BR>
> we have a hard enough time DETECTING neutrinos, so I'm wondering how we<BR>
> could possibly know what they would cause in the way of radiation damage.<BR>
<BR>
The key words here are "almost" and "albeit not quite". Frightening isn't it.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 09:28:48 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
From: William Prankard <cmdrx@magicnet.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Type-Ss with a spinal mount meson gun?<BR>
<BR>
>Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 11:52:06 +0100 <BR>
>From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com><BR>
>Subject: Type-Ss with a spinal mount meson gun?<BR>
<BR>
>I just had a bazzare thought: why do all the magnets  (and  other<BR>
>components) of a spinal mount meson gun (aka linear  accelerator)<BR>
>have to be on the same ship?  With commo-linked computer  control<BR>
>a dreadnought sized spinal mount meson  gun  could  be  dispersed<BR>
>over a number of ships.  (A bit like Ditzie's EMPG.)  They'd then<BR>
>all line up to fire.<BR>
<BR>
>Regards PLST<BR>
<BR>
This is reminding me of the typical mecha/anime meathod of taking a group<BR>
of ship/robots and connecting them to make a biger ship/robot.<BR>
<BR>
Ditzie with an FS "Ultra Battle Zord", now THAT is disturbing. (Eeep!)<BR>
<BR>
Hmm maybe that is what happens when the "4 Horsemen" join their steeds<BR>
together and invoke the (FNORD)...<BR>
<BR>
The remainder of this post has been censored by Imperial Security<BR>
Have a nice day.<BR>
<BR>
\  // Commander X<BR>
 \//  CEO X-TEK Industries of Deneb, LIC<BR>
T E K  Starship Contractor & High Energy Weapons Research<BR>
 //\  http://www.magicnet.net/~cmdrx/xtek/xtek.htm<BR>
//  \ 0608 D557777-A kk- va+ so+ zh+ da+ A723<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 09:59:12 -0400<BR>
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca><BR>
Subject: Re: TL/Pixie<BR>
<BR>
Hans Rancke-Madsen writes:<BR>
>>>>Pixie is one of those worlds that gets Traveller GMs thinking up stories.<BR>
>>>Which is a good thing if you can come up with something that works. I just<BR>
>>>don't think that all random UWPs can be explained away.<BR>
>>It's all relative  ;)<BR>
>I (personal opinion) do not believe that all randomly generated UWPs can be<BR>
>explained away once they are placed in a historical and sociological context<BR>
>(like, for instance, the Imperium of the OTU).<BR>
 <BR>
	I (personal opinion) do not believe that Traveller reflects a possible<BR>
	future.  The rules are a lot of fun, but I certainly do not think that<BR>
	the rules or the OTU can be reconciled with reality.  That being said,<BR>
	I understand that we all have different tolerances for how far reality<BR>
	is stretched in physics, sociology, etc.  :)<BR>
<BR>
<snipped><BR>
>>Now, I agree that I need a logical explanation for Pixie having more than a<BR>
>>typical proportion of jobs being done by robots. My thinking has been that<BR>
>>the Imperial Navy set up their base there, and a few of the local miners set<BR>
>>up a bar next door. Commercial traffic through the system increased, <BR>
>This is part of what I mean when I talk of placing UWPs in a specific<BR>
>setting. There's no logical reason for any traffic to pass through Pixie.<BR>
>Anything that comes from outside the Menorb mini-main is Jump-2 and can get<BR>
>to Yres without passing through Pixie. Jump-1 traffic from Boughene to Yres<BR>
>(assuming there is any) has a choice of going through Menorb or Pixie. If<BR>
>there is any traffic from Boughene, it isn't very much; Boughene has a<BR>
>population of 600,000. Any system in Uthe subsector is easier to get to<BR>
>from some other system than Pixie.<BR>
<BR>
	Given that the universe has been created with dice rolls, I use the<BR>
	following explanation: The Imperial Navy built a base on Pixie for<BR>
	their own purposes, and the local miners started to cater to naval<BR>
	personel.  The civilian starport was effectively upgraded by the<BR>
	presence of the base, particularly when some unused naval facilities<BR>
	were sold to the locals for a song.  The x-boat link to the Dentus<BR>
	cluster was put through Pixie because of the naval base, so a<BR>
	"rudimentary" scout base was established at the starport.  By now,<BR>
	hardly anyone on Pixie worked away from the starport, but the x-boat<BR>
	traffic (plus all traffic between Yres and the Dentus cluster, plus<BR>
	some between Menorb and the Dentus cluster, plus some between the<BR>
	spinward side of the Regina subsector and the Vargr Extents, plus<BR>
	couriers cycling around Boughene-Menorb-Yres-Pixie) has pushed local<BR>
	resources to the limit.  There's not much to attract colonists, so<BR>
	a sizable investment in robots has been made (I'm not talking about<BR>
	hundreds here, more like tens).  There is still not much traffic<BR>
	compared to many other places, but there is enough to keep the small<BR>
	starport occupied.<BR>
<BR>
<snipped><BR>
>>...How many people have to work on a 600-ton ship at one time? 10? 20? 40?<BR>
>Well, that depends on just what you're talking about. The people who punch<BR>
>the clock at the General Shipyards Pixie Yard? Or those people plus their<BR>
>families? Or those plus the people who make the rest of the local society?<BR>
<BR>
	The people who punch the clock at the shipyards only.  Their family<BR>
	also work there, and there is almost no "rest of the local society."<BR>
<BR>
>>Import the parts, hire a few contractors from off-planet, rent some stuff<BR>
>>from the naval base, transfer some personel from other jobs, and take<BR>
>>longer to built the ship than standard times.<BR>
>All of which makes ships from Pixie more expensive than ships from other,<BR>
>more well-rounded worlds. So why build on Pixie at all, and who takes the<BR>
>loss and why is he willing to do so? Until you've answered that, you haven't<BR>
>really explained Pixie at all.<BR>
<BR>
	Sure I have.  People don't built on Pixie.<BR>
<BR>
>>Pixie technically has a class A starport, but hardly ever is anything<BR>
>>constructed there.<BR>
>What makes you say that?<BR>
 <BR>
	I just asked the director of starport operations.  :)<BR>
<BR>
	IMTU, of course.  YMMV.<BR>
<BR>
>>>[*] I just don't see why anyone would set one up on Pixie.<BR>
>>Initially, mostly just to cater to the naval base, now more commercial<BR>
>>traffic is encouraging expansion.<BR>
>And where is that commercial traffic coming from and going to?<BR>
<BR>
	See above.<BR>
<BR>
Peez<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 05:44:40 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: 10 foot ceilings (was re: Life support)<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> One item snipped from this whole long thread (and may I politely suggest <BR>
> that since it seems to have become a two-sided discussion/argument, the <BR>
> participants should take it to private email?):<BR>
<BR>
Frankly, I'm ready to *drop* it, given that it turns out we were<BR>
talking *past* each other... :-(<BR>
<BR>
>>"10 foot ceilings" (or 3 meter ones :-) are *not* going to be at all<BR>
>>common. Wastes too much space.<BR>
><BR>
> But, but... 10' x 10' underground passages are Sacred Tradition!  Next <BR>
> you'll be telling us we can't have wandering monsters or secret doors!<BR>
<BR>
20 foot, 15 foot, 10 foot, 5 foot, *3* foot were all found in my<BR>
dungeons. <BR>
<BR>
Then there was the French Curve I used for so sections... :-)<BR>
<BR>
> (10 x 10 x 10, the Standard Dungeon Cube.  Not to be confused with its <BR>
> Traveller equivalent, the Displacement-Ton of LHyd.)<BR>
<BR>
*Standard*? What fun is *that*?!<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 06:20:52 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Grav mechanics(was:Re: Grav Powered Floating Cities)<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> At 23:19 28.03.00 PST, Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
>>Ok, it's like this. Gravity exerts a *force* on the city. But energy<BR>
>>is force times DISTANCE MOVED. So it takes energy to *move* the city<BR>
>>upwards against the force of gravity. And lowering the city<BR>
>>*releases* energy.<BR>
><BR>
> By your reasoning, you should be able to hold a weight in your hand<BR>
> without expending energy, as long as you are not moving it. That is not<BR>
> correct, I promise :-)<BR>
<BR>
Not the same thing. The human body is not designed to hold up static<BR>
loads. <BR>
<BR>
On the other hand set that weight on a tree branch, and the tree won't<BR>
use any energy to hold it up. <BR>
<BR>
Heck, it cost *me* no energy if my hand and arm are hanging at my side..<BR>
<BR>
> You need to spend a lot of energy keeping the city in place. Spending a<BR>
> bit more will raise it upwards, spending a bit less will lower it.<BR>
<BR>
Again, *no*. You are confusing force and energy. It takes a substantial<BR>
force to support the city against the *force* of gravity. But there are<BR>
a number of ways *we* could do it without using energy to merely<BR>
maintain altitude. We could use bouyancy. (Ie make the city lighter<BR>
than air). <BR>
<BR>
And don't try to claim that is "making the mass go away". Try lifting a<BR>
hot air ballon sometime. They are *heavy*. But with the envelope<BR>
inflated, and the air in it heated, the mass of the<BR>
balloon+envelope+air is *less*than that of the surrounding air. <BR>
<BR>
Likewise, sufficiently strong magnets could make the city float. And<BR>
*not* use energy in the process.<BR>
<BR>
> Spending no energy will be the equivalent of dropping the weight to the<BR>
> ground. Actually reversing the gravitic engine (to gain energy somehow)<BR>
> would cause the city to fall even faster than a simple dead fall.<BR>
<BR>
You just flunked basic physics.<BR>
<BR>
energy = force * DISTANCE MOVED<BR>
<BR>
Any energy used to hold a position in a gravity field is a measure of<BR>
how *inefficient* the support method is.<BR>
<BR>
Raising a 1 kilo weight 1 meter against against Earth's gravity<BR>
requires 9.8 Joules (plus losses in whatever raises it). Lowering the<BR>
same distance *generates* the same amount of energy (minus losses in<BR>
whatever is lowering it). But just *holding* it there merely requires<BR>
that you lock the cable it is hanging from. <BR>
<BR>
But the same holds true when the support is *non-material*. Like a<BR>
field of force (magnetic, electric, gravitic, whatever). <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 06:33:50 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: GT-Q: Ground Penetrating Radar and other toys<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Dalton Spence wrote:<BR>
>> <BR>
> <<snip>><BR>
>> <BR>
>> 2.) I've also designed a Traveller equivalent of the infamous Soviet<BR>
>>     "fishing" trawler whose cold war catch-of-the-day was electronic<BR>
>>     intelligence. Rather than build a completely new ship, I decided<BR>
>>     to refit a common existing design with SOTA technology. To allow<BR>
>>     it to shadow ships and worlds undetected, I'm replacing its<BR>
>>     Basic TL10 Stealth with Radical TL12 changing the ship's -6 ASig<BR>
>>     modifier to -16.<BR>
><BR>
> IMHO, since there are few plausible excuses for a starship to loiter<BR>
> (there aren't any fish to catch in interplanetary space), you're better<BR>
> off designing a standoff SIGINT platform, able to operate at distances<BR>
> of 1,000 AU or greater.  That way, if it _is_ detected, it has plenty of<BR>
> time to jump out before it is intercepted.  If you like, I can forward<BR>
> my _Pueblo_ class SIGINT ship, designed under FF&S2 (T4), so that you<BR>
> can compare it to your ideas.<BR>
<BR>
On the other hand, you can jump in at 1 AU (or several AU) but well<BR>
away from any of the planets (and preferrably, out of the plane they<BR>
orbit in). <BR>
<BR>
The odds of another ship being near you are effectively nil. Just work<BR>
out how many ships it'd take to have one in attack range of every point<BR>
in a sphere a couple of AU in radius. *Nobody* can afford that many<BR>
ships in one system.<BR>
<BR>
So the ship can hang around for 6 days, jump out, and the ship that the<BR>
defenders tried to microjump out to it will arrive a day later. <BR>
<BR>
You don't even have to be very stealthy. What's the point? You *can't*<BR>
hide your exit from jump from even the sort of grav sensors we have<BR>
*now*, much less the sort that will be looking for you.<BR>
<BR>
The only good that stealthing will do is making it hard to localize<BR>
you, which keeps them from trying to blind your sensors with masers and<BR>
lasers. Note that I say *trying*. Given that they are working with a 20<BR>
minute or better round-trip lag for light, they can only aim at where<BR>
you were 20 minutes ago. <BR>
<BR>
So you make random course changes and even at *low* accel you'll be<BR>
outside the beam. <BR>
<BR>
Given the sheer *size* of solar systems, and the quality of available<BR>
sensors, there's not really anything you can *do* to prevent ELINT<BR>
ships from dropping in. <BR>
<BR>
Best defense is to broadcast orders to ships in code, and to have them<BR>
link to base and each other via tight beam laser links. That way, even<BR>
if there's an ELINT ship around, he can't ID the ships. His sensors can<BR>
record movements, and make *estimates* of ship sizes. But as long as<BR>
you don't screw up, he'll have a devil of a time confirming anything<BR>
about your miltary ships.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 15:15:25 +0100<BR>
From: Timothy.Collinson@solent.ac.uk<BR>
Subject: Liverpool shop<BR>
<BR>
>My local FLGS (Best Books and Games in Liverpool) has 4 copies of the<BR>
>Classic Traveller Reprints, 2 copies of TNE rules, 1 copy of T4 and a<BR>
>selection of other material in at the moment. And at least two copies<BR>
>of GT Starports, and the GT Main Rules x 1.<BR>
<BR>
>Phone is 0151 707 1001 - they mail order without charging postage if<BR>
>you can handle 2nd class mail.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Umm, Dom, could you check that number please?<BR>
<BR>
I got all excited for a moment about buying the book, phoned up and got a<BR>
very puzzled lady wondering why I wanted to buy a starport!<BR>
<BR>
Cheers<BR>
<BR>
tc<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 10:26:47 -0400<BR>
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca><BR>
Subject: Re: Disparate TLs<BR>
<BR>
James W. Lindsay writes:<BR>
>>I don't buy this argument.  When a PC arrives on a TL 6 world, the<BR>
>>price of a rifle is Cr 200 (IIRC).  Let's say that world has a<BR>
>>standing army that uses 5,000,000 rifles.  How hard can it be for the<BR>
>>local government to pay the PCs Cr 3,000 (a 100% markup, IIRC) each<BR>
>>for 333,333 laser rifles?<BR>
>Hmmm... I consider 5 million TL6 rifles to be *much* more of a threat (as a<BR>
>standing army, that is) than a third of a million laser rifles.  Sure, the<BR>
>latter has better range and can inflict more damage.  Then again, being<BR>
>outnumbered 15:1 really sucks...<BR>
<BR>
	I actually mention this later in that post, but in any event it is <BR>
	(of course) a simplification.  If the prices of rifles and laser<BR>
	rifles were all that mattered, why use laser rifles?  For one thing,<BR>
	the efficiency of each soldier (who must be trained, fed, paid,<BR>
	transported, etc.) is increased.  You can also have laser rifles<BR>
	assigned one to a squad, for example.  However, the expense of<BR>
	upgrading to higher-TL weapons is one of the rationals that I use<BR>
	for low-TL armies existing at all in the 3I.<BR>
<BR>
Peez<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 09:10:06 -0400<BR>
From: "Chauncey Smith" <csmith@ICDC.com><BR>
Subject: Re: GT-Q: Ground Penetrating Radar and other toys<BR>
<BR>
Ok I can help with some of this I think. I'm keeping the original text so<BR>
that I can paste my statements in-between.<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
From: Dalton Spence <dalton.spence@hwcn.org><BR>
To: GURPSnet-l@lists.io.com <GURPSnet-l@lists.io.com><BR>
Cc: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Date: Tuesday, April 04, 2000 10:21 PM<BR>
Subject: GT-Q: Ground Penetrating Radar and other toys<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>I've been kicking around some GT related vehicle ideas and I need<BR>
>some advice.<BR>
><BR>
>1.) I would like to include Ground Penetrating Radar as a sensor on<BR>
>    some TL8 earth moving equipment I'm designing with GURPS<BR>
>    Vehicles. (No more cut phone cables or busted water mains.) I<BR>
>    heard a buried city was redisovered using such a device, and<BR>
>    I've seen one used on TV to detect buried objects. This is the<BR>
>    lower-tech alternative to the Densitometer (GT p.113).<BR>
><BR>
>    a - Should I consider this a limitation like Ground/Air Search<BR>
>        or No-Targeting options, an enhancement like Lo- or Hi-Res<BR>
>        Imaging. or both?<BR>
>    b - While I need specs for this as a component, how would this<BR>
>        option affect the price/use of Mini and Backpack Radars<BR>
>        (GURPS Space p.69) as gadgets?<BR>
>    c - BTW, can an Imaging Radar also be No-Targeting?<BR>
><BR>
If you're mounting ground search radar on civilian craft then the<BR>
limitations for ground search only and no targeting will be standard. The<BR>
res for the system will need to be high due to the ablity to see pipes and<BR>
cabling. It should cost les the backpack radars because it doesn't need the<BR>
power supply as it will come from the craft.<BR>
ooh please note my opinions only come from knowledge of TRAVELLER and not<BR>
GURPS<BR>
<BR>
>2.) I've also designed a Traveller equivalent of the infamous Soviet<BR>
>    "fishing" trawler whose cold war catch-of-the-day was electronic<BR>
>    intelligence. Rather than build a completely new ship, I decided<BR>
>    to refit a common existing design with SOTA technology. To allow<BR>
>    it to shadow ships and worlds undetected, I'm replacing its<BR>
>    Basic TL10 Stealth with Radical TL12 changing the ship's -6 ASig<BR>
>    modifier to -16.<BR>
><BR>
>    a - Can I use a blip enhance (VE p.60) to hide that a common<BR>
>        vehicle has been given improved stealth?, (I will need an<BR>
>        *improved* model that increases the ASig by +10, not +4.)<BR>
>    b - Would such a Stealth upgrade be visible optically?<BR>
>    c - Since I'm also improving Emissions Cloaking, is there a<BR>
>        similar device that can spoof a PESA? Or a radscanner?<BR>
><BR>
don't know anything about that that because it's to systemic.<BR>
>3.) I'm also concealing several other upgrades: the bridge, the<BR>
>    maneuver drive and the weapon systems.<BR>
><BR>
>    a - Does disguising TL12 equipment as TL10 cost anything?<BR>
>    b - Could the bridge computers run an emulation program that<BR>
>        could convert TL10 operations skill into TL12 without<BR>
>        penalty? What should such a program cost?<BR>
>    c - The reduced volume of the manuever drive will be disguised<BR>
>        with a hidden cargo hold [VE p.15] costing MCr0.01 per dton.<BR>
>        Does the penalty to a searcher's Holdout skill also apply to<BR>
>        high tech sensor rolls?<BR>
><BR>
No it shouldn;'t cost a thing to disguise equipment it's just the outer<BR>
casing. maybe some price increase to show it was done.<BR>
In traveller there wasn't a tech level pently for going from a lower tech<BR>
level to a higher one on starships that have configurable control options.<BR>
In Traveller these where dynamic Computer or holo control panels. they<BR>
allowed for user to reconfiger the system to something they where use to or<BR>
just perfere so they are easy to control.<BR>
with that sayed someone could configer the panels to look and act like TL 10<BR>
and the TL 10 PC or NPC is right at home.<BR>
>4.) According to the Traveller Mailing List FAQ question number 5.2,<BR>
>    "All ships have chameleon skins according to the SOM, so paint<BR>
>    them any way you want. Colorful military ships can be assumed to<BR>
>    be in ``parade mode''. They turn black while on missions." See<BR>
>    <http://www.vectis.demon.co.uk/traveller/faq/tml-faq.html>. (SOM<BR>
>    = Starship Operator's Manual - MT supplement concentrating on<BR>
>    owning and operating Starships.) Is this in the GURPS canon too?<BR>
I'm going to make a statement about all Traveller CANON Vs your TRAVELLER<BR>
universe. pick and choose as you like. if you like Chameleon halls toss it<BR>
in..<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2253<BR>
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Traveller-digest      Wednesday, April 5 2000      Volume 1999 : Number 2254<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
RE: Disparate TLs<BR>
Re: Disparate TLs<BR>
RE: The Great Tech Level Debate<BR>
Re: <BR>
Re: 10 foot ceilings (was re: Life support)<BR>
Re: Dave Hyphen is channelling me<BR>
RE: Filk explosion! Dulinor went to Capital<BR>
RE: Notes on building Heya<BR>
Re: Astronomy in the 57th Century<BR>
RE: Farmers and output<BR>
Re: Imperial Marine models?<BR>
RE: Notes on building Heya<BR>
RE: Farmers and output<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 10:37:34 -0400<BR>
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca><BR>
Subject: RE: Disparate TLs<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erickson writes:<BR>
>>>"Sure you can buy this state-of-the-art laser rifle. All it'll cost you is<BR>
>>>a thousand Crimps."What will you pay me for a cartload of ragabatu roots?"<BR>
>>>"One Crimp." "Never mind."<BR>
>>       I don't buy this argument.  When a PC arrives on a TL 6 world, the<BR>
>>       price of a rifle is Cr 200 (IIRC).  Let's say that world has a<BR>
>>       standing army that uses 5,000,000 rifles.  How hard can it be for the<BR>
>>       local government to pay the PCs Cr 3,000 (a 100% markup, IIRC) each<BR>
>>       for 333,333 laser rifles?  These are Imperial credits that the PCs<BR>
>>       are buying and selling with, LBB2 certainly lets players buy and<BR>
>>       sell freely on most any world.  One could argue that some worlds<BR>
>>       are economically isolated (why did they colonize it in the first<BR>
>>       place?), but not all or even most (IMHO).<BR>
>Well, *getting* that much *spare* money may be a problem for the government.<BR>
<BR>
	They already have that much "spare" money to buy rifles with.  The<BR>
	question is whether they can spend it on laser rifles instead.  Even<BR>
	that is a simplification, as I wouldn't expect it to be a simple choice<BR>
	between 5,000,000 rifle-equiped soldiers and 333,333 laser rifle-equiped<BR>
	soldiers.<BR>
<BR>
>>       Even so, if it takes 1000 cartloads of ragabatu roots to buy a laser<BR>
>>       rifle, perhaps the world can produce a few million cartloads.  What<BR>
>>       about this copper mine here, how much will you offer for good copper<BR>
>>       ore (in Imperial credits, please).  Perhaps a Megacorp would like to<BR>
>>       invest in developing this resource, with TL 9+ equipment.<BR>
>Keep in mind that for *some* societies, diverting production or<BR>
>resources can be fatal. Most commonly this involves argicultural<BR>
>production in a TL1 or TL2 society. They need all the output of all the<BR>
>farmers just to keep the population *alive*. And they run 99.99%<BR>
>farmers, because they can't support more than a few folks *not* growing<BR>
>food.<BR>
<BR>
	Again, I am not talking about diverting production here.  In fact,<BR>
	having fewer high-TL soldiers would make more workers available for<BR>
	agriculture!  (said the Interstellarms rep  :)<BR>
<BR>
>>       Even this is a gross simplification.  Exactly what is keeping a TL 5<BR>
>>       world from smuggling a few science texts from a TL 6 world and upping<BR>
>>       its own TL?  Even a poor TL 5 world could probably scrape together<BR>
>>       enough Imperial credits to import a little TL 6 manufacturing<BR>
>>       equipment assuming that the pop is high enough).  How about bringing<BR>
>>       in a few scientists/engineers/etc. and letting them live like kings<BR>
>>       as long as they help upgrade the TL? <BR>
>Check out the situation in many third world countries. They either go<BR>
>for "status symbol" stuff that quickly breaks down because they can't<BR>
>maintain it (Hmmm, *that* is why some low tech worlds have fancy<BR>
>spaceports! To try to "prove" something...)<BR>
<BR>
	I would argue that the "TLs" of most third world countries have<BR>
	increased dramatically (depending, of course, on how one defines<BR>
	"TL."  That being said, I am not trying to argue that TL differences<BR>
	are not going to happen.  On the contrary.<BR>
<BR>
>Or they spend it on the military, which then oppresses the population<BR>
>until the military get sick of it and takes over. Or the people revolt.<BR>
<BR>
	Yup, a mess ensues, but that doesn't stop some leaders from doing<BR>
	it.  :(<BR>
<BR>
>Also, consider that the TL5 rating may already *have been* "enhanced"<BR>
>this way, and the population in general are educated & trained to more<BR>
>like TL3. <BR>
<BR>
	I agree.<BR>
<BR>
>>       I figure that low-tech worlds generally find it more efficient to<BR>
>>       use equipment that they understand and can maintain locally.  Having<BR>
>>       5,000,000 rifles may be better than having 300,000 laser rifles,<BR>
>>       especially if recharging them is a problem.  I don't think that the<BR>
>>       TL differences are impossible to explain, only that they are no<BR>
>>       easier to explain than some of the other Traveller bits that we<BR>
>>       have been discussing.<BR>
>Consider the TLs of a lot of places on earth. They may have an almost<BR>
>contemorary TL in the capitol or main city. And once you leave that,<BR>
>it's back to TL2 or TL3...<BR>
<BR>
	Very true.  Once again it comes down to how one defines TL.  I don't<BR>
	think that a rigid definition is necessary or desirable.<BR>
<BR>
Peez<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 10:47:54 -0400<BR>
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca><BR>
Subject: Re: Disparate TLs<BR>
<BR>
Ian Whitchurch writes:<BR>
>The Traveller universe as it stands can only be explained by assuming that<BR>
>economic underdevelopment is not only possible, but that it is normal - that<BR>
>progressing in TL and infrastructure is not a simple and easy process.<BR>
<BR>
	It would be difficult to put things more eloquently.<BR>
<BR>
>My take on it is that each TL improvement requires (TL) years of a planets<BR>
>GWP in investment, minimum, and involves disruption to the existing social<BR>
>and economic structure.<BR>
<excellent stuff snipped><BR>
<BR>
	This is a perfectly reasonable system, but I will poke at it anyways :)<BR>
	TL years sounds like a rather short time, from the POV of history<BR>
	(though no hi-TL societies were available to trade with, or were there...)<BR>
	and the stability of the OTU.  It certainly took more than 3 years to<BR>
	get from TL 3 to TL 4 on Terra (am I understanding your system correctly?).<BR>
	It might require a generation for any TL advancement.  In the past, it<BR>
	has taken longer to move from TL to TL+1 at lower TLs than at higher TLs.<BR>
	This may change with exposure to the interstellar community, of course,<BR>
	but not necessarily.  Also, is it conceivable that TLs can be skipped?<BR>
<BR>
Peez<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 11:00:20 -0400<BR>
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca><BR>
Subject: RE: The Great Tech Level Debate<BR>
<BR>
Kurt Brown writes:<BR>
<snipped><BR>
>The stated Tech Level of a particular world is the "Locally Sustainable"<BR>
>tech level. If contact with the outside world were cut off tomorrow, the<BR>
>stated TL is the best they could manage on their own.<BR>
<BR>
	This is perfectly usable, but I will stoop to commenting on it<BR>
	anyways  :)<BR>
	There are plenty of high-TL low-Pop worlds that would (IMHO) not<BR>
	be able to manage any TL if cut off from the rest of the universe.<BR>
	This makes me define TL as the level of equipment widely available<BR>
	on that world, that is, the stuff that the PCs typically encounter.<BR>
	Many worlds would suffer TL erosion if cut off, but others would<BR>
	not.  As usual, YMMV.<BR>
<BR>
<snipped><BR>
>This interpretatiuon allows for "local flavor" in that you'll still have<BR>
>your quaint country farms, but they'll be driving John Deere tractors,<BR>
>not two-oxen teams. You can still import higher tech stuff for a fair<BR>
>profit, and acquire hand-crafted leather mugs (still made locally<BR>
>despite the disposable plastic variety available at the local pub) for<BR>
>off world markets. Note that this does NOT mean than once you cross the<BR>
>XT line at the starport you step off the sidewalk and into a mudpuddle<BR>
>that the locals call a road! What it does mean is that, for a price, the<BR>
>locals can enjoy comfort/convenience/productivity several levels above<BR>
>what they could produce on their own.<BR>
<snipped><BR>
<BR>
	I allow such imports IMTU, but only a small minority (mostly the<BR>
	rich and powerful) can afford to import and maintain such<BR>
	luxeries.<BR>
<BR>
>Okay, so I rambled a bit. Hopefully, this interpretation will help clear<BR>
>things up a bit. If not. . hey, I tried! :)<BR>
<BR>
	Your input is gratefully received  :)<BR>
<BR>
Peez<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 07:31:33<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: <BR>
<BR>
At 10:09 PM 4/4/2000 -0700, you wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>having been away from traveller on the web, and having<BR>
>just recently completed going thru the archives thru<BR>
>'97, i'm dismayed by the more acrimonious and<BR>
>confrontational letters i'm seeing lately.  geez, what happened?<BR>
<BR>
Um, what specifically?  We are a contentious lot, and sometimes let our<BR>
passions run away from us a bit.<BR>
<BR>
To be honest, this seems to be one of the TML's quieter periods...<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry   Templar Agent at Large.<BR>
gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/sylea.html<BR>
<BR>
TravGeekCode: <BR>
tc+ tm+ !tn- t4@ ?tg+ tt@ to(CORPS)++ ru@ $ge++ 3i<BR>
ii+ au st+ ls+ pi kk+ so(++) va++ dr+ zh+ sw++ ?da<BR>
         <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 07:34:54<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: 10 foot ceilings (was re: Life support)<BR>
<BR>
At 05:44 AM 4/5/2000 PST, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Then there was the French Curve I used for so sections... :-)<BR>
<BR>
AP - Medford, Ore.  Local Dungeonmaster Leonard Erickson was found dead<BR>
today, evidently killed by one of his on players.  Leonard was found with a<BR>
protractor enbedded in his back.  His suspected killer was heard screaming<BR>
"right angles!  What in the (deleted) is wrong with right angles?" as he<BR>
was led away.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 07:35:59<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Dave Hyphen is channelling me<BR>
<BR>
At 09:51 PM 4/4/2000 PST, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>> It's a very simple uniform, since I'm going to be doing panels and hosting<BR>
>> the Srephon's Jubilee Party in it.  Gray Federal short-sleeved BDU shirt,<BR>
>> black BDU pants, boots, black beret.  Had custom name tags made reading<BR>
>> IMPERIAL ARMY and BERRY.  Have a few other bells and whistles.<BR>
><BR>
>About those name tags... In English or Bilandin? :-)<BR>
<BR>
English.  Oddly, US Cavalry doesn't offer Bilandin.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 07:38:04<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Filk explosion! Dulinor went to Capital<BR>
<BR>
At 09:16 PM 4/4/2000 -0700, you wrote:<BR>
>Luckily, I have my Penguin-Stare-of-Death Return Bounceback Mirror(tm)  "We<BR>
>manufacture those by the way."<BR>
><BR>
>I only missed 50% of the *VILANI BBQ* due to work.  I was there for the rest<BR>
>of the Con.  In fact IIRC you were in the row behind me & Todd for Chris<BR>
>Knight's Trailer Park thing.  Remember, they showed a sneak peek of Blair<BR>
>Witch?<BR>
<BR>
Um.  I plead utter exhaustion by that point for not remebering anything<BR>
that happened in trailer park.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 11:10:12 -0400<BR>
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca><BR>
Subject: RE: Notes on building Heya<BR>
<BR>
Chris Seamans writes:<BR>
<snipped><BR>
>However, it is also likely that the agricultural business will have to<BR>
>compete with other technologies. Single-cell proteins, grown in vats, would<BR>
>be extremely cheap, advanced synthetic flavors could make such foods<BR>
>extremely palatable. In such a situation, "real" food may become a specialty<BR>
>item, or obsolete altogether, for all intents and purposes (as strange as<BR>
>that sounds).<BR>
<BR>
	It is also possible that such synthfood might be more expensive (though<BR>
	I will not try to argue the point).  Greenhouses, hydroponics, geneered<BR>
	vat foods, and finally synthetic foods would be the mainstay of many<BR>
	worlds that cannot grow their own.  If these approaches became cheaper<BR>
	than farming, I presume that farming would be superceded unless some<BR>
	other factors are in play (sustainability, for example).<BR>
<BR>
>Interstellar food transport would be aided by the same sort of technology<BR>
>which is used to freeze people in low berths. If a low berth can keep<BR>
>someone fresh and "alive" for 60 or 70 years (ala the Imperial who woke up<BR>
>to find himself in the TNE universe), then cabbage at a week should be no<BR>
>big deal. This would increase the cost, to some extent (which would be<BR>
>offset by cheap fusion power), but in theory would increase the<BR>
>profitability as well, since the foods could reach a wider market.<BR>
<snipped><BR>
<BR>
	I would think that low-TL agricultural worlds that export food would<BR>
	put a premium on getting produce from the fields to the high-TL<BR>
	facilities at the starport as fast as possible, to avoid spoilage.<BR>
	Livestock might be better for this, as they might even be transported<BR>
	live.  One of the first imported technologies on a TL 4 Ag world might<BR>
	be refridgerated train cars.<BR>
<BR>
Peez<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 07:10:12 -0800<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Astronomy in the 57th Century<BR>
<BR>
Lewis Roberts <lewis@mauigateway.net> wrote<BR>
<BR>
> I am back on the TML after a three year absence. <BR>
<BR>
Welcome back.<BR>
<BR>
> The biggest problem with the neutrino telescope is figuring <BR>
> out how to shield it from the fusion power planet powering <BR>
> the observatory.  The observatory will be too far from any <BR>
> star for solar power to work.  The astronomers will know where<BR>
> the fusion power plant is and will be able to remove it from the image. <BR>
<BR>
Can we run the whole observatory on batteries by any<BR>
chance? Since artificial gravity & G-Comp use way more<BR>
power than life support our astronomy lab probably won't<BR>
use them as they would increase power needs & shorten operational<BR>
duration. This may help explain why the lab ship is<BR>
torus shaped since spin gravity wont require the power<BR>
grav plates do.<BR>
<BR>
We could take a subsidized merchant & fill its whole cargo<BR>
hold full of batteries. Then we run the whole observatory<BR>
(and the subbie itself) off of the batteries. When it runs dry<BR>
we switch to the next subbie. We simply have new "battery ships"<BR>
jump in at appropriate intervals.<BR>
<BR>
Alternatively we could run the station off of batteries<BR>
and periodically recharge them by turning on the stations<BR>
fusion plant once a month or so but I suspect that this<BR>
would interfere with long term observations.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> The biggest problem with astronomy will be the travel lag.  <BR>
> If the University of Antares discovers a new phenomenon, it <BR>
> will be years before the schools on Terra learn about it.  <BR>
> Imagine working on your dissertation for 6 years, only to get<BR>
> the latest issue of the Publications of the Astronomical <BR>
> Society of Illesh and find out someone proved you wrong four <BR>
> years ago.  <BR>
> <BR>
> I'd also imagine that the sheer cost of the observatories, limit them to only<BR>
> about one or two a sector in the heart of the Imperium or other interstellar<BR>
> states, while the frontier sectors don't have any.  <BR>
<BR>
I think that these observatories would be clustered in the<BR>
frontier sectors because they are closer to the phenomena<BR>
being observed. Anything you can observe by telescope from <BR>
Capital could have been observed centuries before at the<BR>
frontiers. As a usefully _approximation_ light will travel<BR>
through one sector per century (104 years) sideways, one <BR>
sector per 130 years vertically, and one sector every 165<BR>
years diagonally.<BR>
<BR>
See the discussions of Longbow for confirmation<BR>
of this.<BR>
<BR>
IMTU these sorts of observatories tend to cluster in the<BR>
frontier/edge sectors and are primarily located at TL 15<BR>
or 16 worlds, usually with high populations, usually within <BR>
half a sector of the border, and usually on long settled worlds<BR>
(where presumeably the local university has had longer to<BR>
build up a reputation). If possible I place all important universities<BR>
at subsector or sector capitals under the assumption that<BR>
these planets have the political pull to get better funding.<BR>
 <BR>
Most of the "deep space" observatories are in deep space hexes <BR>
usually only jump 1 or 2 from the planet whose university they <BR>
are part of.<BR>
<BR>
I have them, in Milieu 1100, at:<BR>
Rhylanor/Spinward Marches 2716 A434934-F A Hi Cp 810 Im M2 V<BR>
See Regency SB for details on the U of Rhylanor.<BR>
<BR>
Kaasu/Corridor  1209 AA7A9CD-G   Hi In Wa Cx 922 Im A6 V<BR>
Which will be overrun by Vargr corsairs during the Rebellion.<BR>
Given that it is law level D (paramilitary law enforcement) and <BR>
government type C (Charismatic Oligarchy) I picture Kaasu as <BR>
a fascist state with strong anti-Vargr predjudices.<BR>
<BR>
Vland/Vland 1717 A967A9A-F N Hi Cx 320 IM K8 V<BR>
U of Vland is associated with the AAB IMTU. IMTU U of<BR>
Vland is the best University in the Imperium for "historical"<BR>
astronomy.<BR>
<BR>
Antares/Antares 2421 A762ADA-D A Hi Cx 821 Im M1 Ib A0 D<BR>
Obviously if you live around a star that will go<BR>
supernova real soon now your university probably has a<BR>
well funded Astronomy department. IMTU the U of Antares<BR>
is effectively TL E. IMTU Antares, which is a religious<BR>
dictatorship on a desert planet, bears a striking<BR>
resemblance to certain Middle Eastern cultures of today.<BR>
The local religion respects knowledge but the society<BR>
is subservient to religious doctrine.<BR>
<BR>
Sirim/Verge  1912 B434966-G [Cp] 210 Im K3 V<BR>
IMTU Verge, which is several sectors away from<BR>
prying neighbors, is a common location for secret<BR>
government projects. IMTU Sirim is controlled directly<BR>
by the Imperium. Sirim is subsector capitol IMTU.<BR>
<BR>
Gerim/Reaver's Deep 2416 A888A97-E N [Cp] 524 Im B1 V<BR>
Gerim is Imperial subsector capital IMTU. IMTU<BR>
U of Gerim has a large percentage of Aslan students,<BR>
almost exclusively females.<BR>
<BR>
Terra/Solomani Rim 1827 A867A69-F B Hi 414 Im G2 V<BR>
A planet that historically has had a few good<BR>
universities.<BR>
<BR>
and three or four more that I've never bothered to<BR>
figure out, including one or two on the trailing border.<BR>
<BR>
IMTU the Zhodani have good astronomers, the Vargr<BR>
are not really interested in astronomy (lack of patience,<BR>
little opportunity for Charisma gain), the K'Kree use <BR>
astronomy only to watch for G'naak, the Hivers do some<BR>
good astronomical research but are really more interested<BR>
in other sciences, Solomani have good astronomers,<BR>
Aslan have good practical (Does the star have planets<BR>
which might have land?) astronomers but have less interest<BR>
in theory than humans, and the Droyne have little interest<BR>
in and an inadequate population base to support much<BR>
astronomy. The Imperium thinks they are the best astronomers <BR>
out there, in reality the Zhodani and Solomani are just as <BR>
good but all their best research is taking place far from <BR>
the Imperium, especially in the case of the Zhodani.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 11:12:55 -0400<BR>
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca><BR>
Subject: RE: Farmers and output<BR>
<BR>
Tommy Grav writes:<BR>
>Just to throw some canon answers onto the bonfire<BR>
<BR>
	Aaaargh!  Not CANON!  :)<BR>
<BR>
>According to World Tamers Handbook (TNE) a TL5 farmer<BR>
>is able to produce food for 12 people as a base. Bye <BR>
>using more resources this can be risen by a factor <BR>
>of 1.25 to 15. Assuming best case richness in land<BR>
>this is multiplied by 150 for a value of 2250 people.<BR>
>This again is adjusted for monthly factors.<BR>
<BR>
	Is one "farmer" one individual, or does a family of 5<BR>
	with a farm count as 1 "farmer."<BR>
<BR>
Peez<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 07:31:22 -0700<BR>
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Imperial Marine models?<BR>
<BR>
>From: "James W. Lindsay" <jlindsay@home.com><BR>
>Subject: Re: Imperial Marine models? (was Re: Combat Armor)<BR>
...<BR>
>> >Then there's the company that makes 1/6th "Aliens" armor, weapons, and<BR>
>> >accessories for 1:6 scale figures which are starting to really boom in<BR>
>> >popularity. Check out http://members.aol.com/M56SG/uscm.html to see what I<BR>
...<BR>
>>   Well, given that a 1:_16th_ kit - even in resin - would be _far_ cheaper<BR>
>> than those figures, it's still nice to know that people will shell out huge<BR>
>> amounts of money for cool toys - although those VW restoration guys worry me.<BR>
><BR>
>Now I'm certain of it!  And I don't "restore" old VWs... I "customize" them<BR>
>to the point that they eat Mustangs for breakfast...<BR>
<BR>
  Right, and next you'll claim that you can stop anytime you want - that you<BR>
don't _have_ to do them, you _want_ to; it's denial, dude. OTOH, I guess it's<BR>
not so bad so long as you don't find yourself trying to convince everyone<BR>
that the T4 Vehicles book was really an underappreciated great work :><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 11:31:25 -0400<BR>
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net><BR>
Subject: RE: Notes on building Heya<BR>
<BR>
>On the one hand I admit that I owe you an apology because there _does_<BR>
>exist an official (although IMO not self-consistent) explanation of just<BR>
>what TL means. I was unaware of this until Peter Newman pointed it out.<BR>
>So I was wrong to think no such definition existed.<BR>
<BR>
There are several actually. Every version of Traveller gives a definition of<BR>
Tech Level. Classic the MegaTraveller version is slightly different than the<BR>
LBB definition, for example. MegaTraveller basically says that it's the TL<BR>
of the Starport and surrounding areas, but other parts of the world can be<BR>
one or two levels lower. Classic Traveller says nothing of the sort. It<BR>
appears to be only a slight difference, but it changes the *feel* of the<BR>
mechanic, as it seems to be an attempt to make the abstract concrete.<BR>
<BR>
>On the other hand I found, and still find, my attitude completely called<BR>
>for. You were presenting your own opinion as a proven fact, with no ifs,<BR>
>buts, or maybes. That ticks me off no end, and I think my sarcasm mild<BR>
>enough considering the provication.<BR>
<BR>
I don't think that I was presenting anything as proven fact. I've checked<BR>
over my messages in the thread, and I can't see any examples of such<BR>
behavior. The only time that I may have done this was when I said that the<BR>
TL system is arbitrary and abstract. I stand by it, because it fits the<BR>
definitions, and my understandings of those words. More on that in a second.<BR>
If I unintentionally gave you the impression that I was presenting opinion<BR>
as fact I apologize.<BR>
<BR>
>>With that being said, no, I don't have a self-consistent explanation of<BR>
>>just what TL means, because I haven't felt the need to generate one. The<BR>
>>"official" explanations seem to just muddy the water even more and are<BR>
>>often contradictory.<BR>
><BR>
>And you don't find this attitude incompatible with an unequivocal statement<BR>
>about what TL actually is?<BR>
<BR>
No, I don't. The tech level system has certain characteristics which can be<BR>
identified, whether or not one knows anything about Traveller or the<BR>
Traveller universe. These characteristics exist no matter what definition<BR>
you or I use to define the game effects of the mechanic. If I'm using<BR>
Classic Traveller's definition of tech levels, and you're using<BR>
MegaTraveller's, they both have certain characteristics that can be defined<BR>
above and beyond game effects.<BR>
<BR>
I haven't felt the need to sit down and map out what tech levels look like,<BR>
in the context of Traveller, in a self-consistent fashion. The official<BR>
versions of tech level muddy the water because they are open to various<BR>
interpretations. The explanation from MegaTraveller attempts to make the TL<BR>
rating concrete, while the definition from Classic Traveller allows for<BR>
less-concrete interpretations. I'd rather get to the meat, what the mechanic<BR>
actually is, and what characteristics it has. That's why I said that<BR>
official explanations muddy the water.<BR>
<BR>
>>A TL rating is a game mechanic. It is an arbitrary number that serves as a<BR>
>>"stand in" for the development of the world.<BR>
><BR>
>A TL supposedly tells something about the technology to be found on a<BR>
world.<BR>
>Just what is not, IMO, too clear, but whatever it is, there should be a<BR>
>direct correlation. It may be vague and not too well defined, but it is not<BR>
>arbitrary.<BR>
<BR>
Arbitrary does not mean random, nor does it mean that the game mechanic is<BR>
not useful to GMs or players. I think that the mechanic is intensely useful<BR>
as a starting point for GMs, as well as a guide for players concerning what<BR>
to expect. I think my posting history on the topic is consistent with this,<BR>
as I've stressed that I don't want to do away with the mechanic, nor do I<BR>
want to replace it with something else. That doesn't mean that the TL<BR>
ranking isn't arbitrary. It is an attempt to pull together the various<BR>
threads of a world's technological sophistication and represent them by a<BR>
number. This number exists within the context of a ranking system which<BR>
pre-supposes a linear development of technology.<BR>
<BR>
The TL mechanic is arbitrary in that it is an attempt to describe the<BR>
technological advancement of the world in a single number. This is not an<BR>
attempt to express the technological sophistication clearly, but to aid GMs<BR>
in generating random subsectors, and to fit the representation of this<BR>
sophistication into a short-hand code system, some of the components of<BR>
which are *not* arbitrary. World Size, Hydrographic Percentage and<BR>
Atmosphere Type are examples of components of the same system which are not<BR>
arbitrary.<BR>
<BR>
Arbitrary has a dictionary definition of "based on or determined by<BR>
individual preference or convenience rather than by necessity or the<BR>
intrinsic nature of something". I think that it's reasonable to say that the<BR>
tech level rating system is based on convenience rather than the intrinsic<BR>
nature of technological sophistication. It's not a bad thing, but it is a<BR>
characteristic that this rating system has.<BR>
<BR>
>>It's an attempt to view the technological development of the Earth in a<BR>
>>linear fashion and then map that same development on to other planets.<BR>
><BR>
>But technology is to a large extent linear. Some technologies do depend on<BR>
>others. To view Earth's technological development as the only one possible<BR>
>is, I agree, a mistake, but if the system isn't taken too literally, it<BR>
can,<BR>
>IMO, be quite useful.<BR>
<BR>
I agree it can be useful. I can't recall ever saying that the TL  rating<BR>
wasn't useful. Some technologies are linear, some aren't directly linear.<BR>
Some technologies (such as steam power and gunpowder) are based on<BR>
breakthroughs, or discoveries. A society does not have to have a body of<BR>
theory concerning gunpowder in order to discover gunpowder. A society does<BR>
have to have a body of theory about steam to conceive of a steam engine, but<BR>
that body of theory about steam doesn't rely on, say, a society's<BR>
construction technology.<BR>
<BR>
I picked these two examples because both of these are generally seen by<BR>
people playing Traveller as defining TLs 2, 3 and 4. This can be extremely<BR>
problematic.<BR>
<BR>
It directly relates to the discussion of Heya because it would seem that<BR>
many agricultural developments have little to do with machinery and devices,<BR>
and much more to do with theory, and new ways of dealing with agriculture.<BR>
It doesn't matter so much whether the plow is pulled by a steam tractor or a<BR>
fusion tractor, but whether or not you planted peanuts there last season<BR>
could be extremely important.<BR>
<BR>
Similarly, it is possible in the real world, and very common, for<BR>
corporations to open factories and such in areas with a lower technology<BR>
level. These factories and farms are usually much more sophisticated than<BR>
the local level of advancement would allow. Using more modern theory and<BR>
techniques these corporations are able to produce equipment of a higher tech<BR>
level than can be found in the area. Nike, for example, has plants all over<BR>
the third world, but you can't buy high-tech Nike sneakers in the towns that<BR>
these factories pull their workforce from.<BR>
<BR>
The TL system, being arbitrary, is not equipped to model such situations<BR>
accurately. In my opinion, it would be a big mistake to try and model this<BR>
system with the TL system. Imagine gun factories on a TL5 world that uses<BR>
TL5 labor, but the factories themselves are TL12. Players visiting the world<BR>
might very well not be able to buy the produced TL12 guns when they visit<BR>
the world, despite the fact that these factories form the backbone of the<BR>
economy of this planet.<BR>
<BR>
The parallels between this hypothetical situation and my version of Heya<BR>
should be obvious. A visitor to Heya may find no equipment above TL5 for<BR>
sale, and what can be found is produced mostly by local machinists or very<BR>
small factories. Buildings, for the most part, are built using TL5<BR>
technology (with the exception of the raising of barns, a TL1 practice,<BR>
which is a communal and social activity integral to the lives of the farmers<BR>
on Heya).<BR>
<BR>
>>It is, out of necessity, arbitrary, and there are many gaps and holes.<BR>
><BR>
>Ah, I see what you mean by arbitrary. Yes, the individual levels are fairly<BR>
>arbitrary, although not as much as you claim. But once the measuring stick<BR>
>is defined, the individual TLs do mean something.<BR>
<BR>
It would seem that the whole system is arbitrary, a matter of convenience. I<BR>
think that the TL rating system means something as well. I think our<BR>
difference is exactly what it means. :)<BR>
<BR>
>>As a game mechanic, it is abstract. It is removed from concrete reality to<BR>
>>a large extent because it's difficult to map the technological progress of<BR>
>>the earth by way of a single digit.<BR>
><BR>
>I have to disagree. It is highly imprecise, yes, but you can make some<BR>
>deductions from it. Some technologies depend on other technologies.<BR>
<BR>
Then you actually agree that it is abstract. To say that something is<BR>
abstract is to say that it *suggests* something else. For example, the<BR>
cubo-futurists of the early 20th century were abstract painters. Their<BR>
paintings dealt with form and, and especially motion, and their use of<BR>
colors and shapes suggested things that a naturalist (or "realistic")<BR>
painting could not. This seems to be similar to the deductions you're<BR>
talking about, if I understand you correctly.<BR>
<BR>
This is precisely the reason I like the TL rating system, and the reason I<BR>
defend it despite the fact that a naturalist system (i.e., breaking down the<BR>
tech level into subgroups such as biology, gravitics, etc.) would likely be<BR>
"more realistic".<BR>
<BR>
>But they're NOT as easy to import. They are more expensive. That's the main<BR>
>point. You can't import if no one will sell to you at prices you want to<BR>
pay.<BR>
<BR>
But historically, better seeds are *not* always more expensive. High-tech<BR>
does not always mean more expensive, indeed, high-tech items are frequently<BR>
less expensive, any way you cut it. Concerning the issue of seeds, it might<BR>
actually cost more for Heya to import a "low-tech" seed than a high-tech<BR>
seed. The level of abstraction presented in the TL rating system does not<BR>
handle this, and rightly leaves such decisions up to the GM or worldbuilder.<BR>
<BR>
"Pure", unmodified seeds may only exist on one or two worlds, if at all<BR>
after several thousand years of human existence. However, a TL9 seed<BR>
modified for increased yields is still a TL9 seed, whether this seed is<BR>
bought from a TL1 world, a TL12 world, or a TL5 world is irrelevant.<BR>
<BR>
Biotech in general happens to be a case where the TL system breaks down in a<BR>
spectacular way. On one hand,it's because people don't view biological<BR>
objects in the same way they view machines. Take a look at this thread, for<BR>
example. Quite a few people have made the claim that a TL5 farm that uses<BR>
TL8 seeds is a TL5 farm, but that a TL5 farm that uses TL8 machinery is a<BR>
TL8 farm. It is entirely possible that the seeds increase the yields much<BR>
more than the machinery.<BR>
<BR>
This is understandable. My cocker spaniel is currently situated at my feet,<BR>
and my manx is drinking water from her bowl. I've never thought of their<BR>
tech levels before. :)<BR>
<BR>
>I'm sorry, but that is the answer. If you'll wait till I have the proper<BR>
>books with me, I can give you a more specific answer, but it will just be<BR>
>the same answer with bells and whistles added. There are things you can do<BR>
>and artifacts you can build at TL 6 that you can't do and build at TL 5.<BR>
>When a society do those things and use those artifacts on a large scale,<BR>
>it is TL 6.<BR>
<BR>
Well, I'm getting at what makes a society TL6 and what makes a society TL2,<BR>
and how a shift can be identified. This is an absolute necessity is you view<BR>
tech levels in the way that you seem to. Does a steam-powered TL3 sweatshop<BR>
become a TL8 sweatshop if the steam valves are regulated with a TL8<BR>
computer? Does a TL1 clothing shop become TL3 if it adopts an assembly line<BR>
approach? If TLs are viewed as "concrete", then by necessity, the boundaries<BR>
must be drawn. I don't think that they are concrete, so I don't have to draw<BR>
them.<BR>
<BR>
>>Fair enough, do you have any notion of how to go about dealing with the<BR>
>>situation?<BR>
><BR>
>Sorry, I seem to have lost the thread here. Something about how large a<BR>
>portion of Heya's 70 million inhabitants that could be farmers, right?<BR>
>Well, I suppose you could look up some demographical tables for various<BR>
>Western World countries between the two world wars and add up all those<BR>
>engaged in any primary and secondary occupation. That would give you a<BR>
>figure to start with.<BR>
<BR>
Fair enough, as long as it was a figure to start with. Remember that things<BR>
like television and electronics in general lower the amount of entertainers<BR>
you need. For example, the Sony Playstation is sold at a loss in order to<BR>
make more money on the cheaply produced high-tech games. This is one of the<BR>
ways that the "high-tech = more expensive" equation breaks down.<BR>
<BR>
>>It doesn't resolve any problems. It just shifts the question from "what is<BR>
>>tech level good for" to "what does each tech level signify".<BR>
><BR>
>There are tables in various Traveller books that tells us just that. They<BR>
>are far from complete, but they are a pretty good start.<BR>
<BR>
There are two types of tables, and both don't appear in all versions.<BR>
<BR>
The Classic Traveller Book 3 has only the first type. This is a list of<BR>
typical *devices* that may be found at various tech levels. It is far from<BR>
complete (cocker spaniels and hybrid seeds don't appear, nor does a category<BR>
for them), but more importantly, it doesn't resolve any questions. What if a<BR>
society uses steam power (TL3), revolvers and shotguns (TL4), and "Model/2"<BR>
computers (TL7), and air/rafts (TL8)? It allows mixing and matching, which<BR>
is fine, but it says very little about situations like the one I just<BR>
described.<BR>
<BR>
The big Traveller Book includes the second type as well (if I remember<BR>
correctly). The second type of list, which made its first appearance in that<BR>
book, puts the tech levels as real world eras. It also contains the first<BR>
list. MegaTraveller may or may not have both. The second one has problems<BR>
too. China discovered many things that were integral to Europe around TL3,<BR>
but much earlier. Would China be a TL1 society, or a TL3 society as a<BR>
result? Using the first type of list, probably TL3. Using the second list,<BR>
probably TL1.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 17:32:11 +0200 (MET DST)<BR>
From: Tommy Grav <tommy.grav@astro.uio.no><BR>
Subject: RE: Farmers and output<BR>
<BR>
On Wed, 5 Apr 2000, Ian Ferguson wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Tommy Grav writes:<BR>
>>Just to throw some canon answers onto the bonfire<BR>
><BR>
>	Aaaargh!  Not CANON!  :)<BR>
<BR>
Yes indeed, yes :-)<BR>
<BR>
>>According to World Tamers Handbook (TNE) a TL5 farmer<BR>
>>is able to produce food for 12 people as a base. Bye <BR>
>>using more resources this can be risen by a factor <BR>
>>of 1.25 to 15. Assuming best case richness in land<BR>
>>this is multiplied by 150 for a value of 2250 people.<BR>
>>This again is adjusted for monthly factors.<BR>
><BR>
>	Is one "farmer" one individual, or does a family of 5<BR>
>	with a farm count as 1 "farmer."<BR>
<BR>
Form WTH (TNE) page 27:<BR>
<BR>
Each laborer is equal to one actual person in the colony's<BR>
population. This individual person is not necessatily a member <BR>
of the the workforce, however. Each laborer laborer represents <BR>
roughly one quarter of a worker, representing the members of a<BR>
society who are too young or too old to work, or are otherwise<BR>
occupied in non-worker roles (including full-time parents, etc.).<BR>
Thus the colony currently has 800 industrial laborers, this <BR>
number includes the fa,ilies of the actual industrial workers,<BR>
whos actual number is around 200.<BR>
<BR>
So a family of a farmer will be 4 laborers and will in the<BR>
best case scenario above produce 9000 rations. <BR>
<BR>
>Peez<BR>
<BR>
Tommy Grav<BR>
- -------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
tommy.grav@astro.uio.no     http://www.uio.no/~tommygr/  <BR>
Institute of Astrophysics, UiO, No  <BR>
IMTU tn++t4+tg+ ru+ge++ !3i jt+au+st+ls hi++dr-so++zh-sy-sw++ <BR>
 <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2254<BR>
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Traveller-digest      Wednesday, April 5 2000      Volume 1999 : Number 2255<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
RE: Farmers and output<BR>
Re: District 268 Canon<BR>
Help needed - Singer/District 268<BR>
RE: Notes on building Heya<BR>
Re: Astronomy in the 57th Century<BR>
Re: District 268 Canon<BR>
RE: Notes on building Heya<BR>
RE: <BR>
RE: Notes on building Heya<BR>
RE: Notes on building Heya<BR>
Re: The Great Tech Level Debate<BR>
Re: Disparate TLs<BR>
Re: World population limits<BR>
Re: Imperial Marine models?<BR>
Query re: _First In_<BR>
Re: Disparate TLs<BR>
RE: Confrontational Letters<BR>
RE: Farmers and output<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 17:32:11 +0200 (MET DST)<BR>
From: Tommy Grav <tommy.grav@astro.uio.no><BR>
Subject: RE: Farmers and output<BR>
<BR>
On Wed, 5 Apr 2000, Ian Ferguson wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Tommy Grav writes:<BR>
>>Just to throw some canon answers onto the bonfire<BR>
><BR>
>	Aaaargh!  Not CANON!  :)<BR>
<BR>
Yes indeed, yes :-)<BR>
<BR>
>>According to World Tamers Handbook (TNE) a TL5 farmer<BR>
>>is able to produce food for 12 people as a base. Bye <BR>
>>using more resources this can be risen by a factor <BR>
>>of 1.25 to 15. Assuming best case richness in land<BR>
>>this is multiplied by 150 for a value of 2250 people.<BR>
>>This again is adjusted for monthly factors.<BR>
><BR>
>	Is one "farmer" one individual, or does a family of 5<BR>
>	with a farm count as 1 "farmer."<BR>
<BR>
Form WTH (TNE) page 27:<BR>
<BR>
Each laborer is equal to one actual person in the colony's<BR>
population. This individual person is not necessatily a member <BR>
of the the workforce, however. Each laborer laborer represents <BR>
roughly one quarter of a worker, representing the members of a<BR>
society who are too young or too old to work, or are otherwise<BR>
occupied in non-worker roles (including full-time parents, etc.).<BR>
Thus the colony currently has 800 industrial laborers, this <BR>
number includes the fa,ilies of the actual industrial workers,<BR>
whos actual number is around 200.<BR>
<BR>
So a family of a farmer will be 4 laborers and will in the<BR>
best case scenario above produce 9000 rations. <BR>
<BR>
>Peez<BR>
<BR>
Tommy Grav<BR>
- -------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
tommy.grav@astro.uio.no     http://www.uio.no/~tommygr/  <BR>
Institute of Astrophysics, UiO, No  <BR>
IMTU tn++t4+tg+ ru+ge++ !3i jt+au+st+ls hi++dr-so++zh-sy-sw++ <BR>
 <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 16:36:04 +0100<BR>
From: Timothy.Collinson@solent.ac.uk<BR>
Subject: Re: District 268 Canon<BR>
<BR>
Charles Drive asked about District 268:<BR>
<BR>
>Any other information would be helpful.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
A quick check of _The Traveller Bibliography_ (2nd edition) reminds me that<BR>
in addition to the sources you mention, _Safari Ship_ (Adventure 10) is set<BR>
on 567-908 in District 268 and _GURPS Traveller: Far Trader_ has a<BR>
subsector map.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
I've also checked _The Traveller Bibliography: volume 2_ which is hopefully<BR>
a forthcoming publication from BITS (which covers all the articles in JTAS,<BR>
Challenge, MTJ, Travellers' Digest and Traveller Chronicle) and that<BR>
reveals that Tarkine Down was an Amber Zone from JTAS #12 that was set on<BR>
Tarkine in District 268.<BR>
<BR>
I trust this is of use<BR>
<BR>
tc<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 17:37:32 +0200 (MET DST)<BR>
From: Tommy Grav <tommy.grav@astro.uio.no><BR>
Subject: Help needed - Singer/District 268<BR>
<BR>
I've asked once before, but didn't recive any answers so I boldly <BR>
try again<BR>
<BR>
Does anybody have some canon info on <BR>
<BR>
Singer	        0940/District 268<BR>
Kwai Ching	1040/District 268  <BR>
975-452		0840/Five Sisters<BR>
<BR>
Anything would help me a lot<BR>
<BR>
Tommy Grav<BR>
- -------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
tommy.grav@astro.uio.no     http://www.uio.no/~tommygr/  <BR>
Institute of Astrophysics, UiO, No  <BR>
IMTU tn++t4+tg+ ru+ge++ !3i jt+au+st+ls hi++dr-so++zh-sy-sw++ <BR>
 <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 11:45:35 -0400<BR>
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca><BR>
Subject: RE: Notes on building Heya<BR>
<BR>
Chris Seamans writes:<BR>
>Genetically modified seeds and advanced fertilizers don't sound like<BR>
>equipment that would be available at TL5. Is a farm with TL9 seeds a TL9<BR>
>farm, or a TL5 farm? Is a TL12 tractor that is built in such a fashion that<BR>
>it can be repaired by TL5 farmers a TL12 tractor, or a TL5 one? How about<BR>
>devices that are not designed to be repaired or maintained, or which are<BR>
>cheaper to replace than to repair?<BR>
<BR>
	Fair questions.  Is a farm that uses TL 6 tractors and TL 1 seed TL 6<BR>
	or TL 1?  My own take is that if the PCs land their starship in a<BR>
	cultivated field on a TL 6 world, they can expect to see TL 6 tractors<BR>
	and plants growing.  If they really want to know where the seed or the<BR>
	tractor came from, I might allow imports from the nearest Industrial<BR>
	world.<BR>
<BR>
>>that's what TL means to me: the technology that is widely available to<BR>
>>residents of the world.  I suppose that it could be argued that certain<BR>
>>sectors of that society use TL 10 equipment for specific purposes, but<BR>
>>that level of complexity tends to invalidate the TL rating for me.  YMMV.<BR>
>I guess my mileage does vary, for the simple reason that TL appears to be,<BR>
>at least to me, a device for the GM (or worldbuilder) to use in deciding<BR>
>what the planet looks like, what it feels like, and what players might be<BR>
>expected to find there. Indeed, in the earliest CT discussion of Tech Level<BR>
>(Book 3), it mentions that citizens on a world will likely be armed with<BR>
>weapons of a given tech level, while the military may use more advanced<BR>
>equipment.<BR>
<BR>
	This fits in fine with my definition.<BR>
<BR>
>It is mentioned that this represents the sorts of things that the<BR>
>planet can produce locally.<BR>
<BR>
	This part is a little tricky, because there are lots of worlds with<BR>
	low Pop and high TL that would have trouble producing all of their<BR>
	own stuff.<BR>
<BR>
>MegaTraveller muddied the waters a bit by saying<BR>
>that the Tech Level of the planet represented the tech level of the starport<BR>
>and surrounding area, but other areas on the planet may have a lower tech<BR>
>level.<BR>
<BR>
	I would allow some flexibility here, but as a general rule I tend to<BR>
	treat a worlds TL as generally consistent (for simplicity).<BR>
<BR>
>>It is hard to defend the disparity in TL between nearby worlds in the<BR>
>>OTU.  Given that such disparity is accepted, one can go one of two ways:<BR>
>From where I'm sitting, I find it very easy to defend the disparity in TL:<BR>
>the tech level rating is an arbitrary and abstract rating that gives the GM,<BR>
>or worldbuilder, a starting point for fleshing out the world. It further<BR>
>tells the players what sort of equipment they might be able to buy there.<BR>
>I'm not worried about the disparity between TLs as much as certain<BR>
>intepretations of tech level which don't allow for trade between worlds, or<BR>
>only allow trade between worlds in a limited fashion. The first version is<BR>
>represented by Hans with his argument that worlds should only be able to<BR>
>trade with worlds of a similar level of technology. The second is<BR>
>represented by you, with your argument that high-tech worlds produce less<BR>
>sophisticated equipment for low-tech worlds.<BR>
<BR>
	I think that my point has been lost in the shuffle.  I agree that it<BR>
	is very easy to defend TL disparity in game terms, I was only suggesting<BR>
	that it is difficult to defend the disparity in terms of "hard" SF (IMHO).<BR>
	I have no problem with the disparity IMTU, and rarely give it any thought<BR>
	at all.  I only brought it up in response to earlier comments in the<BR>
	thread.<BR>
<BR>
>>either interstellar trade does not equalize TLs (at least, not very<BR>
>>quickly), or the TLs are "soft" (Heya might have effectively TL 12<BR>
>>farms).  I go for the former.<BR>
>Going with the former means that you have to deal with, and define, what<BR>
>makes a given tech level a tech level.<BR>
<BR>
	Of course, and I have.  It indicates the technology that is in<BR>
	widely available on a world, that which PCs are typically going<BR>
	to run into.  I don't really need anything more specific than<BR>
	that.<BR>
<BR>
>What makes a TL1 society TL1, and<BR>
>what makes a TL5 society TL5? For example, the theory and materials<BR>
>technology existed in ancient Greece, a TL1 society, to make steam engines.<BR>
>If some ancient Athenian stumbled upon the steam engine, and they began<BR>
>using it to power wine presses, would they be TL1, TL4, or somewhere in<BR>
>between? If the Romans stumbled upon gunpowder and manufactured muskets,<BR>
>would they be TL1 or TL3?<BR>
<snipped><BR>
<BR>
	It might still be argued that having one or two steam engines does<BR>
	not qualify a world as TL 4, but this is entirely beside the point.<BR>
	Representing the technology available to an entire world in all the<BR>
	different disciplines with one number has inherent limitations.  If<BR>
	you cannot live with such limitations, it is possible to specify <BR>
	development of technology in more detail.  I find the simple system<BR>
	more desirable, but allow myself to include TL 1 steam engines on<BR>
	occasion if I desire.  YMMV.<BR>
<BR>
>Basically, if you treat TLs as hard, you face the challenge of figuring out<BR>
>what the threshold between TLs actually is. Good luck. I don't envy you on<BR>
>the task you've selected for yourself. :)<BR>
<BR>
	Not at all.  I pay little attention to the issue, it merely came up<BR>
	in the discussion of agricultural production on Heya.<BR>
<BR>
>While you're doing that, I'll give be giving my own worlds their own flavor<BR>
>by using the tech level listing in the Universal Planetary Profile as a<BR>
>starting point. I'm not saying that my way is better, but it involves less<BR>
>work on my part.<BR>
<BR>
	I'm not sure why you think that I'm doing something different, but<BR>
	I wish you well.<BR>
<BR>
>I'm not even talking about gravitic soil-turners and robotic fruit-pickers<BR>
>here. I'm talking about hybrid crops, advanced pesticides, improved<BR>
>agricultural theory, and so on. At what point does TL5 farming become TL6?<BR>
>At what point does TL4 farming become TL5? If TL4 farming becomes TL5, and<BR>
>the society exports mostly agricultural products, is the society classified<BR>
>as TL5? What if the industrial capability of the world is TL1, the<BR>
>construction technology at TL2 and the materials technology at TL0?<BR>
<BR>
	Not something I worry about.  For me, TL is just a general indication<BR>
	of what you see when you leave the starport.  Maybe there is one<BR>
	air/raft-taxi, but are the streets filled with gnart-and-buggies?<BR>
<BR>
>Now, I'm not saying that the tech level rating should be broken up into<BR>
>many different categories. I don't believe that would be useful. I just<BR>
>think that the TL rating should be considered a springboard for whoever it<BR>
>is that happens to be fleshing out a world.<BR>
<BR>
	No arguement here.<BR>
<BR>
Peez<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 11:59:12 -0400 <BR>
From: "Smith, Walter" <SmithW@hartwick.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Astronomy in the 57th Century<BR>
<BR>
Peter Newman wrote:<BR>
>Alternatively we could run the station off of batteries <BR>
>and periodically recharge them by turning on the stations <BR>
>fusion plant once a month or so but I suspect that this <BR>
>would interfere with long term observations. <BR>
<BR>
Turning on the fusion plant might be less disruptive (and certainly<BR>
more predictable) than having a starship with an operational fusion<BR>
plant jump in and another one jump out. The one coming in might be<BR>
able to exit jump on battery power, but the one jumping out will need<BR>
to run her fusion plant full bore. Add to this whatever disruptions<BR>
jump entry and exit cause.<BR>
<BR>
Then there's predictability. You can know when you're turning the<BR>
fusion plant on and off, the expected battery ship could show up<BR>
anytime over a span of days - more, if the ship is delayed leaving<BR>
port.<BR>
<BR>
Fascinating idea about spinning lab ships to reduce power output, btw.<BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 12:01:03 EDT<BR>
From: WriteFool@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: District 268 Canon<BR>
<BR>
Lurker Newbie Alert<BR>
<BR>
Could someone inform me as to the whys and wherefores of the Traveller <BR>
Bibliography, especially where one can buy, trade, downloand or get a monk to <BR>
copy one?  <BR>
<BR>
Thanks,<BR>
Michael Breen<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 4/5/00 10:37:30 AM Central Daylight Time, <BR>
Timothy.Collinson@solent.ac.uk writes:<BR>
<BR>
<< A quick check of _The Traveller Bibliography_ (2nd edition) reminds me that<BR>
 in addition to the sources you mention, _Safari Ship_ (Adventure 10) is set<BR>
 on 567-908 in District 268 and _GURPS Traveller: Far Trader_ has a<BR>
 subsector map.<BR>
 <BR>
 <BR>
 I've also checked _The Traveller Bibliography: volume 2_ which is hopefully<BR>
 a forthcoming publication from BITS (which covers all the articles in JTAS,<BR>
 Challenge, MTJ, Travellers' Digest and Traveller Chronicle) and that<BR>
 reveals that Tarkine Down was an Amber Zone from JTAS #12 that was set on<BR>
 Tarkine in District 268.<BR>
 <BR>
 I trust this is of use<BR>
 <BR>
 tc<BR>
  >><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 12:05:15 -0400<BR>
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca><BR>
Subject: RE: Notes on building Heya<BR>
<BR>
Chris Seamans writes:<BR>
>>A farm using TL 9 seeds or pesticides but TL5 equipment and techniques<BR>
>>is a TL5 farm.<BR>
>Argh! TL9 seeds, pesticides and fertilizer are all examples of TL9<BR>
>equipment, contrary to the belief that people seem to have that equipment<BR>
>means machinery. A lot of the same kind of machines are in use today that<BR>
>were in use during the 30s or so (pre WWII, TL5). TL7/8 hybrids, irrigation<BR>
>techniques, pesticides and fertilizers are what actually make the<BR>
>difference.<BR>
<BR>
	You may wish to define equipment that way, but a TL 6 farm using TL 2<BR>
	seeds is still a TL 6 farm (or so I would argue).  Perhaps using<BR>
	TL 9 pesticides qualifies the farm as TL 9, but I think that we're<BR>
	arguing about angels and pins here.  IMTU, TL 5 worlds do not use<BR>
	substantial amounts of TL 6+ machinery (tractors, buildings, etc.),<BR>
	but some may use pesticides, fertilizers, and seeds produced at<BR>
	higher TLs.<BR>
<BR>
<snipped><BR>
>What I am saying is that I strongly disagree with Hans, who says that<BR>
>societies only sell their manufactured goods to worlds with similar TLs,<BR>
>which strikes me as odd and unrealistic. I also disagree with Ian, who says<BR>
>that high-tech societies, for the most part, "build-down" to low-tech<BR>
>societies.<BR>
<BR>
	Perhaps I was not very clear, but that isn't exactly what I was trying<BR>
	to say.  I meant to say that:<BR>
		A) a lot of stuff built at higher TLs is for game purposes no<BR>
		different than similar items produced at low TLs.<BR>
		B) low TL worlds do not import large amounts of high-tech<BR>
		stuff, i.e. a TL 5 world does not import thousands of air/rafts.<BR>
		It is possible, however, for a high TL world to "build-down"<BR>
		for a low TL world.<BR>
	I freely admit to not having thought this right through, so you may find<BR>
	it unrealistic.  It is merely part of my rational for not finding too<BR>
	much TL 9 stuff on TL 5 worlds.  YMMV.<BR>
<BR>
>>Pick something that you thing reasonable and that your players can live<BR>
>>with.<BR>
>That's what I usually do. However, this is the Traveller Mailing List. It's<BR>
>for the *discussion* of Traveller. :)<BR>
<snipped><BR>
<BR>
	It's what I do to, and this list is also for *advice* about Traveller.<BR>
	:)<BR>
<BR>
Peez<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 17:04:47 +0100 <BR>
From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com><BR>
Subject: RE: <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry wrote<BR>
> At 10:09 PM 4/4/2000 -0700, you wrote:<BR>
> > having been away from traveller on the web, and having<BR>
> > just recently completed going thru the archives thru<BR>
> > '97, i'm dismayed by the more acrimonious and<BR>
> > confrontational letters i'm seeing lately.  geez, what happened?<BR>
> <BR>
> Um, what specifically?  We are a contentious lot, and <BR>
> sometimes let our passions run away from us a bit.<BR>
<BR>
WHAT!!!  How DARE you cast such blanket generalisations about the<BR>
many fine members of the TML!  Most of  us  are  fine  upstanding<BR>
rational human beings with the self control of a VULCAN!  There's<BR>
not a single contentious bone between the lot of us!  We  are  in<BR>
TOTAL agreement over such vexing  issues  as:  metric V imperial,<BR>
does GURPS have/need a task system, jump torpedoes, near-C rocks,<BR>
... pirates, ... Aslan  in  comfortable  shoes,  ...  mumble  ...<BR>
mumble ... Clif ... mumble ...<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> To be honest, this seems to be one of the TML's quieter periods...<BR>
<BR>
How goes Heya?<BR>
<BR>
Regards PLST<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 12:12:42 -0400<BR>
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca><BR>
Subject: RE: Notes on building Heya<BR>
<BR>
Patrik Holmstrm writes:<BR>
>I would say that most vegetables I know of would be TL0 technology as they <BR>
>are very easy to produce (and that is easy as in "pop one or it's seed into <BR>
>the ground and you get many more") if you have the right conditions. If an <BR>
>Ancient potato modified with TL25+ technology could be grown just like an <BR>
>ordinary potato, just more efficient, then nothing would stop a TL5 farmer <BR>
>from growing them in his fields. You could of course modify/treat them so <BR>
>that they can't be used to grow new plant (IIRC this was done with kiwi <BR>
>fruits).<BR>
<snipped><BR>
<BR>
	I agree, but it may be argued that most vegetables that you know are<BR>
	TL1+.  The crops that we grow have been "genetically modified" by<BR>
	selective breeding for many centuries.  Recently (before modern<BR>
	genetic engineering), better understanding of heredity coupled with<BR>
	various techniques allowed improvements in farming yields.  I would<BR>
	still tend to call a farm with TL 9 seed being tilled with a horp-<BR>
	and-plow TL 4.<BR>
<BR>
Peez<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 12:18:24 -0400<BR>
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca><BR>
Subject: RE: Notes on building Heya<BR>
<BR>
Jason Postma writes:<BR>
>IMO<BR>
>A farm using TL 9 seeds or pesticides but TL5 equipment and techniques is a<BR>
>TL5 farm.<BR>
<BR>
	Me too!<BR>
<BR>
>A TL12 tractor built so that it can easily be repaired by a TL5 farmer is a<BR>
>TL5 tractor, unless it has components that cannot be produced locally.<BR>
<BR>
	The local production can be a problem, as many worlds have too small<BR>
	populations to actually produce their own stuff.  But I agree with<BR>
	the thrust of this approach.<BR>
<BR>
>A device which is a throw-away at TL12 is TL12, even if it's used on a TL5<BR>
>world.<BR>
<BR>
	10-4.<BR>
<BR>
>Attempts to rationalize the disparity of randomly-generated UWPs will never<BR>
>convince everyone on the TML.  Pick something that you thing reasonable and<BR>
>that your players can live with.<BR>
<BR>
	Good advice.<BR>
<BR>
>IMTU<BR>
>Tech level is a very general guidline as to what techniques and technology<BR>
>are locally produced and in general use on the world.  It's main use is when<BR>
>a player wants to buy a particular piece of equipment.  If it's above the<BR>
>world's tech level, he pays more, if it's at all available.<BR>
>It's second use is for the GM to get a general idea of what the world looks<BR>
>like - what the buildings and transportation is like, etc.<BR>
>I like the idea of "broken-down" TLs, as it can get around some of the odd<BR>
>UWPs, to a point, so I use them.<BR>
<BR>
	It is also fun to include a few oddities, like oxoid-drawn grav-plates.<BR>
<BR>
Peez<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 09:27:47 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
Subject: Re: The Great Tech Level Debate<BR>
<BR>
Kurt Brown writes:<BR>
> For what it's worth, my view of Tech Level is as follows:<BR>
> <BR>
> The stated Tech Level of a particular world is the "Locally Sustainable"<BR>
> tech level. If contact with the outside world were cut off tomorrow, the<BR>
> stated TL is the best they could manage on their own.<BR>
<BR>
Then a wide variety of worlds should have their TLs lowered -- a world <BR>
with PR 6- (trade code Ni) almost certainly can't sustain a TL above 5<BR>
without outside assistance, and just about any world with reasonable trade<BR>
would probably lose a tech level at least temporarily (say, a decade or<BR>
two) if cut off.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 12:24:52 -0400<BR>
From: "James Earl" <jearl@mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Disparate TLs<BR>
<BR>
> Ian Whitchurch writes:<BR>
> >The Traveller universe as it stands can only be explained by assuming<BR>
that<BR>
> >economic underdevelopment is not only possible, but that it is normal -<BR>
that<BR>
> >progressing in TL and infrastructure is not a simple and easy process.<BR>
><BR>
> It would be difficult to put things more eloquently.<BR>
><BR>
> >My take on it is that each TL improvement requires (TL) years of a<BR>
planets<BR>
> >GWP in investment, minimum, and involves disruption to the existing<BR>
social<BR>
> >and economic structure.<BR>
> <excellent stuff snipped><BR>
><BR>
> This is a perfectly reasonable system, but I will poke at it anyways :)<BR>
> TL years sounds like a rather short time, from the POV of history<BR>
> (though no hi-TL societies were available to trade with, or were there...)<BR>
> and the stability of the OTU.  It certainly took more than 3 years to<BR>
> get from TL 3 to TL 4 on Terra (am I understanding your system<BR>
correctly?).<BR>
> It might require a generation for any TL advancement.  In the past, it<BR>
> has taken longer to move from TL to TL+1 at lower TLs than at higher TLs.<BR>
> This may change with exposure to the interstellar community, of course,<BR>
> but not necessarily.  Also, is it conceivable that TLs can be skipped?<BR>
<BR>
Ah, but we here on Terra had to go from TL3 to TL4 from scratch. Low tech<BR>
worlds in the 3I don't. By 1105 or later, there is an extensive body of<BR>
technical knowledge of all tech levels from thousands of worlds. I think<BR>
it's reasonable to assume that a TL 3 world could go to TL4 in 4 years by<BR>
hiring off-world advisors and teachers and buying machines from the new tech<BR>
level.  They won't have to do any actual research because that research has<BR>
already been done on every world that ever achieved the target tech level on<BR>
its own.<BR>
<BR>
However, not many worlds could afford to spend their entire GWP every year<BR>
for X years to improve their technology. A better formula would probably be<BR>
(New Tech Level)/(Percentage of GWP spent per year) = Number of years to<BR>
reach the next tech level. This would allow a TL3 world, spending 1% of its<BR>
GWP, to achieve TL 4 in around 100 years, which seems a much more reasonable<BR>
number (note: I'm assuming that it would take 4 years to go from 3 to 4<BR>
given 100% expenditure). Of course, this formula will eventually break down<BR>
when it comes to achieving tech levels that require research (TL16+ or<BR>
GTL13+), but for the vast majority of the worlds of the Imperium it should<BR>
work quite well.<BR>
<BR>
Note: While proofing this post I discovered a flaw in my reasoning. I<BR>
thought I'd leave it in to provoke further discussion on this topic :-)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 09:34:31 -0700<BR>
From: "James W. Lindsay" <jlindsay@home.com><BR>
Subject: Re: World population limits<BR>
<BR>
On Wed, 5 Apr 2000 08:52:11 -0400, Alvin wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> "The typical population density for suburban areas is 10,000 <BR>
> - 20,000 per sq. km.  If Imperial City were only as heavily<BR>
> populated as the suburbs, the population would be in the <BR>
> order of nine trillion persons.<BR>
<BR>
[snip]<BR>
<BR>
Ok, let's say that I want to create a world with sprawling megalopolises or<BR>
towering archologies: how would I go about doing it realistically with only<BR>
the population of present day TL8 Earth?<BR>
<BR>
Smaller planets help (naturally), as would those worlds with large<BR>
hydrospheres (assuming the TL isn't high enough to allow under-sea or<BR>
floating cities).  Real estate would need to be set aside for uninhabited<BR>
land, for farms, nature reserves, etc.  But how much is enough?<BR>
<BR>
That reduces the available surface area somewhat.  What about climate<BR>
conditions rendering much of the surface of the planet uninhabitable?  If<BR>
you have a thin atmosphere, high plateaus or even an egg-shaped crust could<BR>
conceivably push much of the planet's dry land high enough into the<BR>
atmosphere to make the air too thin to breathe even with a respirator.<BR>
<BR>
What about a planet orbiting either closer or further away from the ideal<BR>
orbit we have on Earth?  Which would produce less habitable terrain at<BR>
today's tech level: a world where most of the planet is freezing ice fields<BR>
or scorching deserts?  I suppose I tidally locked world orbiting close far<BR>
enough from a star might create a habitable zone no bigger than the<BR>
"northern" pole?<BR>
<BR>
Then there's the old stand-by of a nuclear exchange in the planet's distant<BR>
past that still leaves much of the (at one time) primary real estate<BR>
poisoned and uninhabitable.  Have the effects of a long-lasting "nuclear<BR>
winter" been debunked, or is that still a valid fear?<BR>
<BR>
I suppose we can cheat and claim that only "legitimate" citizens are<BR>
included in a worlds TAS listing, and that the rest of the inhabitants are<BR>
second class citizens, non-citizens, slaves, etc.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
James W. Lindsay             Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada<BR>
Website: http://members.home.net/jlindsay          ICQ: #7521644<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
Have it OUR way. Yours is IRRELEVANT. At BORGerKing.<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 09:34:36 -0700<BR>
From: "James W. Lindsay" <jlindsay@home.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Imperial Marine models?<BR>
<BR>
On Wed, 05 Apr 2000 07:31:22 -0700, Steven Hudson wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> >From: "James W. Lindsay" <jlindsay@home.com><BR>
> >Subject: Re: Imperial Marine models? (was Re: Combat Armor)<BR>
> ...<BR>
> >> >Then there's the company that makes 1/6th "Aliens" armor, weapons, and<BR>
> >> >accessories for 1:6 scale figures which are starting to really boom in<BR>
> >> >popularity. Check out http://members.aol.com/M56SG/uscm.html to see what I<BR>
> ...<BR>
> >>   Well, given that a 1:_16th_ kit - even in resin - would be _far_ cheaper<BR>
> >> than those figures, it's still nice to know that people will shell out huge<BR>
> >> amounts of money for cool toys - although those VW restoration guys worry me.<BR>
> ><BR>
> >Now I'm certain of it!  And I don't "restore" old VWs... I "customize" them<BR>
> >to the point that they eat Mustangs for breakfast...<BR>
> <BR>
>   Right, and next you'll claim that you can stop anytime you want - that you<BR>
> don't _have_ to do them, you _want_ to; it's denial, dude.<BR>
<BR>
Nope.  It's called finances-- or a lack thereof.  I simply *can't* afford<BR>
another project like this one :)<BR>
<BR>
> OTOH, I guess it's<BR>
> not so bad so long as you don't find yourself trying to convince everyone<BR>
> that the T4 Vehicles book was really an underappreciated great work :><BR>
<BR>
If VWaG was still alive and well in the 57 Century, maybe I might have :)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
James W. Lindsay             Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada<BR>
Website: http://members.home.net/jlindsay          ICQ: #7521644<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
Have it OUR way. Yours is IRRELEVANT. At BORGerKing.<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 08:44:08 -0700<BR>
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)<BR>
Subject: Query re: _First In_<BR>
<BR>
  Who did the illustrations of the Donosev-class Survey Ship in _First In_?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 12:39:50 -0400<BR>
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca><BR>
Subject: Re: Disparate TLs<BR>
<BR>
Hans Rancke-Madsen writes:<BR>
>>I don't buy this argument. When a PC arrives on a TL 6 world, the price of<BR>
>>a rifle is Cr 200 (IIRC). Let's say that world has a standing army that uses<BR>
>>5,000,000 rifles. How hard can it be for the local government to pay the PCs<BR>
>>Cr 3,000 (a 100% markup, IIRC) each for 333,333 laser rifles? <BR>
>Maybe very hard, maybe not hard at all (see below). But even if they could,<BR>
>maybey they prefer 5 million riflemen to 333,333 laseroni (to coin a word<BR>
>for laser-armed soldiers (cf. carabinieri))?<BR>
<BR>
	In fairness, I point out this possibility in that post.  My intention<BR>
	was to use a simplistic example of how resources might be diverted<BR>
	from low TL equipment to high TL replacements.  Naturally, high TL<BR>
	weapons tend to make soldiers more efficient (I posted this elsewhere)<BR>
	but total replacement of rifles is not necessarily the best option.<BR>
<BR>
>>These are Imperial credits that the PCs are buying and selling with, LBB2<BR>
>>certainly lets players buy and sell freely on most any world.<BR>
>PCs usually don't deal in cargoes that represent more than a fraction of<BR>
>a world's GWP (When they do, using unmodified LBB rules produce ludicrous<BR>
>results; an old referee of mine once allowed us to sell 69 million-credit<BR>
>computers, bought at 30% of basic price, for 300% of basic price on a<BR>
>world with a population level of 4. He lived to regret it ;-).<BR>
<BR>
	Yup, the system is flawed.<BR>
<BR>
>>Even so, if it takes 1000 cartloads of ragabatu roots to buy a laser rifle,<BR>
>>perhaps the world can produce a few million cartloads. What about this<BR>
>>copper mine here, how much will you offer for good copper ore (in Imperial<BR>
>>credits, please).  Perhaps a Megacorp would like to invest in developing<BR>
>>this resource, with TL 9+ equipment.<BR>
>And perhaps the locals either don't have exploitable resources that would<BR>
>tempt offworlders to invest or they are satisfied with life the way it is<BR>
>and they buy luxury foodstuff for whatever Imperial currency they do get.<BR>
>Or they buy equipment for an elite part of their army and lets the<BR>
>civilians make do with local products.<BR>
 <BR>
	Yup.  Any of these, and many others, might be suitable arguements.<BR>
<BR>
>>Even this is a gross simplification.  Exactly what is keeping a TL 5 world<BR>
>>from smuggling a few science texts from a TL 6 world and upping its own TL?<BR>
>Nothing if they can afford the upgrades. But TL 6 societies DO exist, so<BR>
>something IS preventing them from doing it. Maybe they are satisfied with<BR>
>the way things are.<BR>
<snipped><BR>
<BR>
	I absolutely agree.  I appologise, as I have obviously done something<BR>
	to give you an entirely inaccurate impression of my viewpoint.<BR>
<BR>
Peez<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 12:48:53 -0400<BR>
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca><BR>
Subject: RE: Confrontational Letters<BR>
<BR>
Douglas Berry writes:<BR>
>someone wrote:<BR>
>>having been away from traveller on the web, and having<BR>
>>just recently completed going thru the archives thru<BR>
>>'97, i'm dismayed by the more acrimonious and<BR>
>>confrontational letters i'm seeing lately.  geez, what happened?<BR>
<BR>
	What do you mean "confrontational?"  If you have PROOF that all<BR>
	of us have been *confrontational* then let's see it!  I can't<BR>
	stand it when people make SWEEPING statements like this.<BR>
	Instead of asking "what happened" why don't you *contribute*<BR>
	something?<BR>
<BR>
	;) :) :) :)<BR>
<BR>
>Um, what specifically?  We are a contentious lot, and sometimes let our<BR>
>passions run away from us a bit.<BR>
<BR>
	We do have our moments.<BR>
<BR>
>To be honest, this seems to be one of the TML's quieter periods...<BR>
<BR>
	Don't say that to loudly...<BR>
<BR>
:)<BR>
Peez<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 12:51:57 -0400<BR>
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca><BR>
Subject: RE: Farmers and output<BR>
<BR>
Tommy Grav writes:<BR>
>>>Just to throw some canon answers onto the bonfire<BR>
>>	Aaaargh!  Not CANON!  :)<BR>
>Yes indeed, yes :-)<BR>
<BR>
	You are a cruel man  :D<BR>
<BR>
>>>According to World Tamers Handbook (TNE) a TL5 farmer<BR>
>>>is able to produce food for 12 people as a base. Bye <BR>
>>	Is one "farmer" one individual, or does a family of 5<BR>
>>	with a farm count as 1 "farmer."<BR>
>Form WTH (TNE) page 27:<BR>
>Each laborer is equal to one actual person in the colony's<BR>
>population.<BR>
<snipped><BR>
>So a family of a farmer will be 4 laborers and will in the<BR>
>best case scenario above produce 9000 rations. <BR>
<BR>
	Thanks.<BR>
<BR>
Peez<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2255<BR>
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Traveller-digest      Wednesday, April 5 2000      Volume 1999 : Number 2256<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Trabant IV freighter<BR>
Re: Disparate TLs<BR>
Re: District 268 Canon<BR>
RE:<BR>
Re:RS ---> DGP 2300AD stuff available<BR>
Re: Query re: _First In_<BR>
Maps and Mains of the Imperium website...<BR>
Imported TL (was something about Heya)<BR>
Heya and other Aggie worlds<BR>
Heya/Regina<BR>
Re: Maps and Mains of the Imperium website...<BR>
Re: Heya/Regina<BR>
Re: Maps and Mains of the Imperium website...<BR>
re: Liverpool shop<BR>
RE: Supernova (was re: stories in the printed copy of NewScientist w hich relate toTraveller)<BR>
Re: Heya/Regina<BR>
Re: Maps and Mains of the Imperium website...<BR>
RE: Imported TL (was something about Heya)<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 18:15:49 +0100<BR>
From: "Nick Bradbeer" <nickb@ndirect.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: Trabant IV freighter<BR>
<BR>
>Ditzie wants to know if it's built to be so cheeeap then why why why does<BR>
it<BR>
>have 4 gees of compensation when the maximum number of geees it can pull it<BR>
>two ?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Beacause under FFS1 rules, you buy Grav Comp as a block. How many gees that<BR>
block compensates is determined by tech level. Size (and cost) is only<BR>
affected by the size of the ship.<BR>
<BR>
>She also thinks that you could cut a third off the size of the power plant,<BR>
>at the cost of not using the maneuver drive and jump drive at once.<BR>
<BR>
Again, under FFS1, Jump Drives don't need a power input. They get all their<BR>
energy from conversion (or whatever) of the jump fuel.<BR>
<BR>
Nick<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 13:32:37 -0400<BR>
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca><BR>
Subject: Re: Disparate TLs<BR>
<BR>
James Earl writes:<BR>
>>It might require a generation for any TL advancement.  In the past, it<BR>
>>has taken longer to move from TL to TL+1 at lower TLs than at higher TLs.<BR>
>>This may change with exposure to the interstellar community, of course,<BR>
>>but not necessarily.  Also, is it conceivable that TLs can be skipped?<BR>
>Ah, but we here on Terra had to go from TL3 to TL4 from scratch. Low tech<BR>
>worlds in the 3I don't. By 1105 or later, there is an extensive body of<BR>
>technical knowledge of all tech levels from thousands of worlds.<BR>
<BR>
	I agree, that's what I meant by "exposure to the interstellar<BR>
	community."  :)<BR>
<BR>
>I think<BR>
>it's reasonable to assume that a TL 3 world could go to TL4 in 4 years by<BR>
>hiring off-world advisors and teachers and buying machines from the new tech<BR>
>level.  They won't have to do any actual research because that research has<BR>
>already been done on every world that ever achieved the target tech level on<BR>
>its own.<BR>
<BR>
	I don't disagree, but I think that social inertia may play a role:<BR>
	"Dag blasted motor-engine tractors!  My team o' good horsoids has<BR>
	done me fine for 35 years, an' I don't see why ya wanna bring in<BR>
	these noisy new-fangled offworlder gidgits."<BR>
	"Mylord Horshule, methinks this talk of 'progress' is dangerous to<BR>
	our monopoly.  And there are disturbing ideas about educating the<BR>
	commoners."<BR>
<BR>
>However, not many worlds could afford to spend their entire GWP every year<BR>
>for X years to improve their technology. A better formula would probably be<BR>
>(New Tech Level)/(Percentage of GWP spent per year) = Number of years to<BR>
>reach the next tech level. This would allow a TL3 world, spending 1% of its<BR>
>GWP, to achieve TL 4 in around 100 years, which seems a much more reasonable<BR>
>number (note: I'm assuming that it would take 4 years to go from 3 to 4<BR>
>given 100% expenditure). Of course, this formula will eventually break down<BR>
>when it comes to achieving tech levels that require research (TL16+ or<BR>
>GTL13+), but for the vast majority of the worlds of the Imperium it should<BR>
>work quite well.<BR>
<BR>
	This seams very reasonable.  Of course, an interested Megacorp could<BR>
	then up the TL of a small population world with relative ease in less<BR>
	than 1 year.<BR>
<BR>
>Note: While proofing this post I discovered a flaw in my reasoning. I<BR>
>thought I'd leave it in to provoke further discussion on this topic :-)<BR>
<BR>
	Are you trying to be contentious?<BR>
	:)<BR>
<BR>
Peez<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 18:42:56 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Re: District 268 Canon<BR>
<BR>
At 12:52 -0400 5/4/00, WriteFool@aol.com wrote:<BR>
>Lurker Newbie Alert<BR>
><BR>
>Could someone inform me as to the whys and wherefores of the Traveller<BR>
>Bibliography, especially where one can buy, trade, downloand or get a monk to<BR>
>copy one?<BR>
<BR>
Buy from http://www.warehouse23.com/ at Steve Jackson Games.<BR>
<BR>
It is produced by BITS http://www.bits.org.uk/ and written by Tim Collinson.<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
BITS Webmaster and TML Lurker<BR>
<BR>
- -------------Dom Mooney---webmaster@bits.org.uk----------------<BR>
                  BITS - British Isles Traveller Support.<BR>
  http://www.bits.org.uk/              mailto:bits@bits.org.uk<BR>
Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
GURPS is a registered trademark of Steve Jackson Games, Inc.<BR>
BITS and CORE are trademarks of BITS UK Limited.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 14:07:07 -0400 <BR>
From: "Smith, Walter" <SmithW@hartwick.edu><BR>
Subject: RE:<BR>
<BR>
Peter Trevor wrote:<BR>
>How goes Heya? <BR>
<BR>
Pretty good. How goes it over theya?<BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 13:12:04 -0500<BR>
From: Dan.Haag@midata.com<BR>
Subject: Re:RS ---> DGP 2300AD stuff available<BR>
<BR>
Hi -<BR>
     Some of DGP's stuff has been released by RS, but it's not Traveller stuff.  To see it go to:<BR>
http://members.cnetech.com/kevinc/2300ad/dgpmenu.htm<BR>
<BR>
Later,<BR>
Dan H<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 13:20:27 -0600 (CST)<BR>
From: "Jason Kemp" <Jason.Kemp@tdh.state.tx.us><BR>
Subject: Re: Query re: _First In_<BR>
<BR>
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)<BR>
<BR>
>   Who did the illustrations of the Donosev-class Survey Ship in _First In_?<BR>
<BR>
Why, our very own Jesse DeGraffe. Check out his incredible work at:<BR>
<BR>
http://www.vision-forge-graphics.com/jesse/traveller/welcome_to_the_pa<BR>
tinir_belt.htm<BR>
<BR>
With Regards,<BR>
Jason<BR>
<BR>
=============================<BR>
Jason Kemp, ADS Programmer IV<BR>
(512)458-7111 ext. 1+3375<BR>
Internet Address:  jason.kemp@tdh.state.tx.us<BR>
<BR>
Most computer virus and email alerts are hoaxes.  For more info, check out:<BR>
http://urbanlegends.miningco.com/culture/beliefs/urbanlegends/library/blhoax.htm<BR>
==============================<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 13:33:32 -0600 (CST)<BR>
From: "Jason Kemp" <Jason.Kemp@tdh.state.tx.us><BR>
Subject: Maps and Mains of the Imperium website...<BR>
<BR>
Greetings, All,<BR>
<BR>
The website containing the maps and mains of the Imperium, including <BR>
the new pdf formatted document on Trade Routes based on the <BR>
calculation of the GT:FT rules for trade routes, refuses to come up <BR>
when I attempt to access it. Is Geocities down, or are there other <BR>
problems with the site or my connection to it? If someone happens to <BR>
have the trade.pdf document, could I request that a copy be sent to <BR>
me? The information is very, very cool, and muchly appreciated. <BR>
Thanks in advance for any assistance I might receive.<BR>
<BR>
With Warm Regards,<BR>
Jason<BR>
<BR>
=============================<BR>
Jason Kemp, ADS Programmer IV<BR>
(512)458-7111 ext. 1+3375<BR>
Internet Address:  jason.kemp@tdh.state.tx.us<BR>
<BR>
Most computer virus and email alerts are hoaxes.  For more info, check out:<BR>
http://urbanlegends.miningco.com/culture/beliefs/urbanlegends/library/blhoax.htm<BR>
==============================<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 12:34:36 -0600 <BR>
From: Jason Postma <JasonP@i-link.net><BR>
Subject: Imported TL (was something about Heya)<BR>
<BR>
Warning - all opinions expressed are IMTU.  If you want to argue cannon,<BR>
find another thread.<BR>
<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
From: Chris Seamans [mailto:semo@pil.net]<BR>
<BR>
Jason Postma said:<BR>
<BR>
>A farm using TL 9 seeds or pesticides but TL5 equipment and techniques is a<BR>
TL5 farm.<BR>
<BR>
>Argh! TL9 seeds, pesticides and fertilizer are all examples of TL9<BR>
equipment, contrary to the belief that people seem to have that equipment<BR>
means machinery. A lot of the same kind of machines are in use today that<BR>
were in use during the 30s or so (pre WWII, TL5). TL7/8 hybrids, irrigation<BR>
techniques, pesticides and fertilizers are what actually make the<BR>
difference.><BR>
<BR>
While TL9 seeds, etc. are indeed TL9 equipment, the TL5 farmers can pretty<BR>
much treat them just as they would natural seeds and TL5<BR>
pesticides/fertilizer.  Because they do not have to alter their techniques<BR>
beyond acquiring the materials from off-planet, I consider the farm's tech<BR>
level to be unchanged.  If the tractors are anit-grav and robots are<BR>
floating around, but they're using locally produced (TL5) seeds and<BR>
pesticides, I would call it a tech 9 farm.  What's the distinction?  What it<BR>
looks like to a PC that happens by.<BR>
<BR>
>A TL12 tractor built so that it can easily be repaired by a TL5 farmer is a<BR>
>TL5 tractor, unless it has components that cannot be produced locally.<BR>
<BR>
>In a sense, that says very little, though. Not that I have an argument with<BR>
saying little. However, an agricultural world, with little or no industrial<BR>
capability is at what tech level? By that logic, if a world doesn't make any<BR>
machines at all, and no machine parts are produced locally, the world is<BR>
TL0. Am I understanding you correctly?><BR>
<BR>
If the people on the world know how to repair or produce a TL12 tractor, but<BR>
don't actually make tractor parts, they are still essentially TL12 as long<BR>
as those tractors are available from somewhere else.  If they could build<BR>
and repair TL12 items but can't buy them from any nearby planets and don't<BR>
have the necessary materials (and therefore have no actual TL12 equipment),<BR>
then they aren't TL12.<BR>
<BR>
>A device which is a throw-away at TL12 is TL12, even if it's used on a TL5<BR>
>world.<BR>
<BR>
>The question is: Does a TL5 society that uses disposable TL12 devices<BR>
become<BR>
TL12, or is it TL5? Can one expect to find, say, wooden carts with cheap<BR>
contragrav units being pulled by horses (or miniphants)?<<BR>
<BR>
If everything on a world is imported from the TL12 world next door, then the<BR>
world is TL12.  If something changes that relationship and the world can no<BR>
longer get TL12 equipment, it will revert to it's native tech level.  <BR>
<BR>
>Currently, there is a group that is donating radios, powered by a clockwork<BR>
mechanism, to a variety of low-tech societies in Africa and elsewhere. These<BR>
are TL7/TL8 devices. Is a TL0 hunter/gardener, or hunter/gatherer tribe that<BR>
uses these (perhaps to get weather forecasts, which would aid them<BR>
immensely), what TL are they?<<BR>
<BR>
They are TL0.  If they get a bunch of TL7/8 assault rifles and<BR>
transportation, then I would consider their TL raised.  One imported item<BR>
doesn't change their tech level.<BR>
<BR>
>What I am saying is that I strongly disagree with Hans, who says that<BR>
societies only sell their manufactured goods to worlds with similar TLs,<BR>
which strikes me as odd and unrealistic. I also disagree with Ian, who says<BR>
that high-tech societies, for the most part, "build-down" to low-tech<BR>
societies.<<BR>
<BR>
First, I do agree that hi-tech worlds should be able to sell to whoever will<BR>
buy.<BR>
Second, I like the idea of "building-down".  It makes some amount of sense<BR>
for a TL12 world to produce items that are maintainable with local resources<BR>
at their sale destinations, as the TL12 world can presumably produce<BR>
lower-tech items for cheaper than the low-tech world can (using advanced<BR>
production techniques).  <BR>
On the other hand, it makes sense to produce things that require imports of<BR>
spare parts and maintenance techs.  <BR>
The general rule would have to be "whatever the market can bear."<BR>
<BR>
>P.S. Jason, our previous discussion (concerning 3I society vs. 20th century<BR>
America) just seemed to end. I was waiting for a response on the list, but I<BR>
never saw one. I switched email programs, and I think I may have lost a day<BR>
or two in the process. Due to a family emergency, I kind of forgot about the<BR>
discussion. Do you remember where we were at (or, if you were the last to<BR>
post to the list, could you send the most recent message in private so I can<BR>
respond on the list?).<<BR>
<BR>
Hmm.  I was wondering why I hadn't heard anything back.<BR>
Unfortunately, I lack the disk space to save the huge amount of traffic that<BR>
comes through the TML.  My last post was something to the effect of "Your<BR>
reasons for discounting my links of culture are because 20th century culture<BR>
is similar to and derivative of past cultures.  Instead of having me set up<BR>
more pins for you to knock down, why don't you tell me what you find<BR>
distinctive and unique about 20th century western culture, and I'll see if I<BR>
can tie a knot instead of hang myself with the rope you give me."<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 15:03:47 -0400<BR>
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca><BR>
Subject: Heya and other Aggie worlds<BR>
<BR>
The Heya/Agriculture/TL thread has spun off in various directions, but IIRC<BR>
it all started with a question about whether the Nonagricultural worlds in<BR>
thew Regina Subsector (Enope: 0605 C411988-6 Na, In; and Rethe: 0808<BR>
E230AA8-8 Po, Na, De) could be self-sufficient, or would they rely on<BR>
nearby Agricultural worlds such as Heya.  My own interpretation of CT is<BR>
that Na worlds must import a substantial amount of food, while Ag worlds<BR>
may export a substantial amount of food.  Other worlds may import and/or<BR>
export some food as well.  Finally taking some time to check out the Regina<BR>
Subsector (and adjoining subsectors), I discovered the following possible<BR>
sources of significant amounts of food for these Na worlds:<BR>
<BR>
	Enope<BR>
		Heya (Regina 0802 B687745-5 Ri, Ag) 2 x J1 + 1 x J2 to Enope<BR>
<BR>
	Rethe<BR>
		Knorbes (Regina 0207 E888787-2 Ri, Ag) 3 x J2 to Rethe<BR>
		Inthe (Regina 0810 B575776-9 Ag) 1 x J2 to Rethe<BR>
		Focaline (Aramis 0207 EA88544-A Ag, Ni) 1 x J2 to Rethe<BR>
		Zila (Aramis 0508 E25672C-7 Ag) 2 x J2 + 1 J2 to Rethe<BR>
		Pysadi (Aramis 0608 C4766D7-4 Ag, Ni) 2 x J2 + 2 x J1 to Rethe<BR>
		Henoz (Rhylanor 0502 A245543-B Ag, Ni) 4 x J1 + 2 x J2 to Rethe<BR>
<BR>
Assuming that the Na worlds do produce some (perhaps even most) of their<BR>
own food, and some is imported from nearby unclassified worlds, it may be<BR>
possible to consider that Na worlds such as these do rely on offworld food.<BR>
 Of course, the movement of such large quantities of food would require<BR>
lots of merchant tonnage.  Well, I guess that there are a lot of big ships<BR>
floating around out there.<BR>
<BR>
Peez<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 12:12:05<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Heya/Regina<BR>
<BR>
Well, here it is:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Heya/Regina B-667745-5 Ag Ri<BR>
<BR>
Primary : Bellus, K6v              Secondary : Zyra, M0v<BR>
Temperature 4940 K                 Temperature 3900 K<BR>
Luminosity  .312 sols              Luminosity  0.071 sols<BR>
Mass        .747 sols              Mass        0.516 sols<BR>
Radius      0.007 AU               Radius      0.005 AU<BR>
Safe Jump   1.4 AU                 Safe Jump   1.08 AU<BR>
Age         3.7 billion years      Age         3.7 billion years<BR>
<BR>
Orbital distances, AU              Companion Parameters<BR>
Inner limit 0.15                   Average orbital radius 17 AU<BR>
Inner life  0.53                   Eccentricity   0.8<BR>
Outer life  0.73                   Revolution period 81.1 years<BR>
Snow line   2.8<BR>
Outer limit 29.8<BR>
<BR>
NOTE: During portions of Zyra's orbit, the star's mass can interfere with<BR>
jumpspace insertion or exit. Consult IISS/SM Publication #33243 _Pilot<BR>
Advisories For Regina/Spinward Marches_ for details.<BR>
<BR>
Worlds :-<BR>
Orbit   Name         Diam|Dens|Grav   Rot      Rev     e    Type<BR>
<BR>
.3 AU   Bracers      Planetoid Belt<BR>
<BR>
.7 AU   Heya         5656|5.4|.67    22.5h    247.5d  .05  Earthlike<BR>
<BR>
1.1 AU  MacBride   35,644|1.4|1.1    14.2h    487.6d  .05  Gas Giant<BR>
        <5           eight shepherd moons, ring system<BR>
        6  Colin     2317|3.9|.18     TideLock   19.3h   .03  Rockball<BR>
                     Fuel processing station<BR>
        9  Angus      382|4.1|.03     TideLock   23.6h   .04  Rockball<BR>
        12 Kate       415|3.2|.03     131.8h     27.2h   .002 Rockball<BR>
        16 Jacob     1068|3.5|.08     29.4h      31.5h   .001 Rockball<BR>
<BR>
Notes for pilots: Heya system is remarkably clear of debris.  Orbital<BR>
control typical of that required by Class IV Starports. <BR>
<BR>
Imperial Interstellar Scout Service<BR>
System Overview: Heya/Regina 1120<BR>
<BR>
SUMMARY: An agricultural world, which is vital to the stability of the<BR>
subsector.  Several recent events have begun to destabilize this world and<BR>
must be dealt with quickly.<BR>
<BR>
PHYSICAL: Heya is a small, dense world.  Despite its unusual mass, mining<BR>
operations have been unprofitable. The planet is seismicaly active, with<BR>
five major plates. The most tectonicaly active portion of the planet is the<BR>
Disappointment Mountains, which have several large volcanoes, and are<BR>
moving northwest at 8mm/standard year.  The average gravity is .67 g<BR>
<BR>
The planet's surface is divided between oceans that cover 70% of the<BR>
surface, two major continents, and numerous islands.  There is geological<BR>
evidence that a third continent sank within the last million years.<BR>
<BR>
Heya is tilted 55 degrees, and orbits Bellus once every 247.5 days. This<BR>
extreme tilt, combined with the relatively dense atmosphere (1.2 atm) makes<BR>
weather on Heya very intense.  The passage of Zyra adds to the energy<BR>
potential of the atmosphere, creating even stronger storms once a standard<BR>
century.<BR>
<BR>
The average planetary temperature is 297 K (75 F).  Zyra's passage adds<BR>
only a few degrees.  The world has no permanent ice caps, but seasonal caps<BR>
do appear.<BR>
<BR>
BIOLOGY: Life on Heya is as diverse as anywhere in known space.  The base<BR>
of the food chain is found in the micro-life of the oceans. Sea life is<BR>
found in an astounding variety of forms. The largest sea-forms are the<BR>
Levits, gigantic animals up to 500 feet long that act as filters, scooping<BR>
up what ever enters their vacuum-like gullets.  <BR>
<BR>
On land, life has had to adapt to the harsh climate. Plant life tends to be<BR>
low and firmly rooted.  One interesting adaptation is fasciweed, which<BR>
secretes a gluey resin. When individual plants are blown into each other,<BR>
they stick together, increasing their collective strength.  Facsiweed is a<BR>
major cash crop, but also a major annoyance as it tends to stick to<BR>
everything is touches.<BR>
<BR>
Area producers like most grasses never developed on Heya. The need for<BR>
plants to grab energy from the weak light of Bellus caused plants to<BR>
develop broad leaves. This blocks out the light, leaving surface types to<BR>
starve. Despite this, there are several types of moss-like plant that feed<BR>
on the decaying leaves of the larger plants around them.<BR>
<BR>
Heya's land animals show the same sturdiness.  Animals are hexapods, and<BR>
tend to be squat and massive.  Oddly, most predators are aerial, taking<BR>
advantage of the strong winds to carry them to different hunting grounds.<BR>
The Heyan Dragon is the largest of these, averaging 400 kg.  Animal life is<BR>
either migratory, or equipped to deal with the harsh seasonal storms.<BR>
There is an entire set of life forms that are adapted to the conditions of<BR>
Zyra's passage.<BR>
<BR>
CULTURAL: Heya was settled by members of the Thammerite Church in the late<BR>
400s after acquiring the colonization rights from Sternmetal Horizons.  The<BR>
sect that settled on Heya had come to the conclusion that an over-reliance<BR>
on technology was "Null-Bartha" (wrong or evil), and that a simple life is<BR>
the key to happiness.<BR>
<BR>
The colonists have voluntarily limited themselves to an industrial,<BR>
pre-fusion level of manufacturing capability.  Even then, lower tech<BR>
solutions are commonly employed.  In the countryside, animal drawn wagons<BR>
are the most common form of transportation, and visitors marvel at the hand<BR>
built windmills that power grain mills.<BR>
<BR>
Heyans have not completely rejected technology; they just judge whether an<BR>
item is necessary to their lives.  Each farming community will have one<BR>
grav ambulance with a life support unit to handle emergencies, and most<BR>
farmsteads have ties to the global weather net.  The overall mix of<BR>
technological levels can become very confusing, as a local will actively<BR>
embrace one item, but refuse to use a similar item for reason that are<BR>
incomprehensible to the observer.<BR>
<BR>
Life on Heya is centered around the family and the village.  Villages from<BR>
focal points for the collection of products for sale, and a point for<BR>
skilled craftsmen to work from.  Local government (see below) usually base<BR>
from the village hall, which doubles as a meeting place, school, or dance<BR>
hall as needed.  Families are large, an average of 4.7 children per family.<BR>
 Heyans are monogamist, and marriage is treated as a very solemn, sacred<BR>
thing.<BR>
<BR>
When dealing with outsiders, Heyans have been described as taciturn<BR>
bordering on mute.  Visitors are lucky to receive answers with more than a<BR>
quick "Ayep" or "Naw."  Asking for directions when away from the major<BR>
settlements can be difficult, as most Heyans will not only use physical<BR>
landmarks, but local history as well.  ("When you get the field where Old<BR>
Will got his hip broke by the 'ket back in '91, turn left.")<BR>
<BR>
GOVERNMENT: Heya is classified as a Representative Democracy.  The planet<BR>
is divided into five Districts, each of which has a Council which in turn<BR>
elects members to the World Council.  The franchise is granted to all<BR>
members of the Thammerite Church upon reaching their 20th birthday.<BR>
<BR>
The Councils are responsible for the writing of all laws and regulations.<BR>
Law enforcement and judicial powers are vested in the Proctors, a<BR>
quasi-religious group that use both the written law and Thammerite sacred<BR>
writings to investigate crimes and hand down judgments.  Overall, the laws<BR>
are not overly burdensome and cover the standard range of criminal offenses.<BR>
<BR>
In 1117, the World Council began moving to create an oversight committee<BR>
that would have power of review over the Proctors.  Many of the more<BR>
conservative elements of society are vehemently opposed to this as an<BR>
unwarranted intrusion on the traditional powers of the Proctors.<BR>
<BR>
Elections are held once every two local years, and are generally low-key<BR>
affairs.  Councilors are returned to their seats more than 70% of the time.<BR>
 Seats on the World Council are held for life, or until the Councilor's<BR>
home District votes to remove him.<BR>
<BR>
ECONOMY:  Heya is an agricultural world, and ships the majority of its<BR>
produce to the high population worlds of Regina subsector.  Fasciweed in<BR>
particular is quite nutritious, and is ground into flour or meal.  Heyan is<BR>
also known for its seafood, but this is more a delicacy than a staple.  The<BR>
cost of shipping from remote Heya makes Heyan seafood extremely expensive.<BR>
As such, it has become something of a status symbol on Efate/Regina.<BR>
<BR>
Heya has a World Trade Number (Lunion School of Economics method) of 4.<BR>
<BR>
The local currency is the Lar, and is issued by the Central Bank of Brian's<BR>
Crossing under license from the World Council.  The Central Bank maintains<BR>
mints in each of the five District capitals, and keeps a close hold on the<BR>
planet's money supply.  The rate of exchange is 32 Lar = 1 Imperial Credit.<BR>
 Credits are usually accepted in Brian's Crossing, but it is difficult to<BR>
find anyone in the rural areas set up to accept them.  Travellers should<BR>
also be advised that items like credit transfer sticks are practically<BR>
unknown on Heya.  Cash, or hand-written checks drawn on established<BR>
accounts are the norm.<BR>
<BR>
The average per capita income for a Heyan is Cr. 1,718/54,976 Lar.  The<BR>
actual income is lower, as taxes are fairly high.  There is a sharp<BR>
division in actual income between a number of wealthy landowners and the<BR>
tenants who farm their lands under contract.  Depending upon the<BR>
personality of the land owner, the tenants can live comfortably or in<BR>
abject poverty.  The Gross Planetary Product for 1115 was 120 billion Credits.<BR>
<BR>
MAJOR SETTLEMENTS:  The single large city on Heya is Brian's Crossing,<BR>
located at the mouth of the Revel River.  As of 1120, the city has a<BR>
population of 2.3 million.  Brian's Crossing (BC to the locals) has been<BR>
described as "a collision between the Imperium and Heya."  The presence of<BR>
Eric Minous Starport and the trading companies buying Heya's abundant<BR>
agricultural products does lead to such incongruous sight as a steam<BR>
powered train transferring drain to a modern grav cargo loader.<BR>
<BR>
In the last six years, a large Vargr ghetto has grown up on the south side<BR>
of BC, near the starport.  This area has become an increasing problem to<BR>
both the Proctors and the Starport officials, as it is obvious that the<BR>
Vargr are establishing an extensive criminal organization.<BR>
<BR>
RECENT HISTORY:  During the Fifth Frontier War, Heya was attacked and<BR>
briefly occupied by vargr force attached to the Gireel Fleet.  While there<BR>
was little actual damage done, the Heyans were angered deeply by the<BR>
actions of the vargr troops, who did little to endear themselves to the<BR>
populace by engaging in large scale looting and vandalism.<BR>
<BR>
After the war, the Imperium was attempting to settle the millions of vargr<BR>
refugees that had washed up on worlds like Jesedipere and Lablon.<BR>
Desperately seeking space, the Ministry of Colonization shipped fifty<BR>
thousand refugees to Heya in 1114.<BR>
<BR>
When the World Council objected, the Ministry quietly reminded them of the<BR>
massive loans granted to the world for starport upgrades and the purchase<BR>
and subsidy of the gigantic bulk carriers.  The message was clear: accept<BR>
the vargr, or the balance on the loans would be called in immediately.<BR>
<BR>
The vargr were not suited for Heya.  very few had been farmers, or had any<BR>
desire to be farmers.  Most of the transported vargr stayed in Brian's<BR>
Crossing, creating an instant crush on the civic services.  The few who did<BR>
venture into the farming areas found themselves practically enslaved as<BR>
tenant farmers, never quite making enough to pay off their debts.<BR>
<BR>
In Brian's Crossing itself, the vargr found themselves at the mercy of the<BR>
Proctors, who applied the law with no mercy.  The new Heyans quickly<BR>
learned that crimes against them went uninvestigated, while even the most<BR>
minor offense committed by a Vargr led to harsh punishments.  This further<BR>
isolated the new vargr community, who began to look inward for leadership<BR>
and protection.<BR>
<BR>
To add to the problem, some humans began treating the vargr as legitimate<BR>
targets for abuse.  The hysteria reached a peak in 1118 when Tal Mori, a<BR>
respected by very conservative religious leader declared that all vargr<BR>
were Null-Bartha, and as such were not protected as intelligent beings.<BR>
<BR>
Faced with this environment, the vargr of Heya naturally began forming<BR>
ad-hoc protection groups, usually under a single charismatic leader.<BR>
Clashes between human and vargr escalated throughout the summer of 1119,<BR>
Culminating with the grisly discovery of twelve human heads stacked on the<BR>
Davis St. bridge over the Revel.  This bridge marks the boundary of<BR>
Dogtown, and the heads were those of a known anti-vargr gang. A note<BR>
attached to the pile said "don't ask what we did with the bodies."<BR>
<BR>
Since that night, a state of near siege has existed in Brian's Crossing.<BR>
At the request of the World Council, the Imperial Navy has stationed<BR>
Cruiser Squadron 7721 (INV Dawson's Christen, CL-12769 and INV Leslie Fish,<BR>
CL-129200) on permanent picket duty, due to fears of vargr raids.  It is<BR>
known that the vargr are making contact with off-world allies, and<BR>
attempting to smuggle in weapons and gear.  In return, the World Council<BR>
and Proctors continue to enact even more restrictive laws against the Vargr<BR>
population.<BR>
<BR>
IISS and Subsector officials are hoping to find a way to mediate the<BR>
situation at talks scheduled to begin on 130-1120.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
"I created the universe; give ME the gift certificate!!"<BR>
                   - Lisa Simpson, Overachiever<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 13:10:46 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Maps and Mains of the Imperium website...<BR>
<BR>
Jason Kemp writes:<BR>
> Greetings, All,<BR>
> <BR>
> The website containing the maps and mains of the Imperium, including <BR>
> the new pdf formatted document on Trade Routes based on the <BR>
> calculation of the GT:FT rules for trade routes, refuses to come up <BR>
> when I attempt to access it. Is Geocities down, or are there other <BR>
> problems with the site or my connection to it?<BR>
<BR>
My server section is apparently down.  I have the information locally, but<BR>
I'm not sure how well my mailer handles binaries and its a 1.2 megabyte<BR>
file.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 16:14:21 -0400<BR>
From: "Sword-Worlder" <swordworlder@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Heya/Regina<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: Douglas E. Berry <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
<BR>
[ utter snippage ]<BR>
<BR>
Is this online someplace so that I can link to from the list?  How about<BR>
others of you?  I'm going to be posting a News item update soon.  There are<BR>
several people off-list who are awaiting write ups with baited breath :-)<BR>
<BR>
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^<BR>
Colin Michael, WebDev<BR>
www.downport.com<BR>
The Traveller Domain<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 16:18:54 -0400<BR>
From: "Sword-Worlder" <swordworlder@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Maps and Mains of the Imperium website...<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: Jason Kemp <Jason.Kemp@tdh.state.tx.us><BR>
> The website containing the maps and mains of the Imperium, including<BR>
> the new pdf formatted document on Trade Routes based on the<BR>
<BR>
The file is huge.  My little backwoods dial-up connection took a looo-oong<BR>
time to get the whole thing.  But my wait was rewarded with a very nice<BR>
product.  Too bad I don't have an 11x17 printer though, cuz a sector on a<BR>
single 8.5x11" page is nigh impossible to read!<BR>
<BR>
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^<BR>
Colin Michael, WebDev<BR>
www.downport.com<BR>
The Traveller Domain<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 18:34:57 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: re: Liverpool shop<BR>
<BR>
At 10:35 -0400 5/4/00, Timothy.Collinson@solent.ac.uk wrote:<BR>
> >My local FLGS (Best Books and Games in Liverpool) has 4 copies of the<BR>
> >Classic Traveller Reprints, 2 copies of TNE rules, 1 copy of T4 and a<BR>
> >selection of other material in at the moment. And at least two copies<BR>
> >of GT Starports, and the GT Main Rules x 1.<BR>
><BR>
> >Phone is 0151 707 1001 - they mail order without charging postage if<BR>
> >you can handle 2nd class mail.<BR>
<BR>
0151 709 1001<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Apologies all - think I mistyped it.<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 18:27:10 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Supernova (was re: stories in the printed copy of NewScientist w hich relate toTraveller)<BR>
<BR>
At 8:51 -0400 5/4/00, "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz> wrote:<BR>
>I have only one thing to say :  "Inconstant Moon"<BR>
<BR>
Shouldn't that be 'It's better to burn out than to fade away!' ;-)<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 13:34:35<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Heya/Regina<BR>
<BR>
At 04:14 PM 4/5/2000 -0400, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Is this online someplace so that I can link to from the list?  How about<BR>
>others of you?  I'm going to be posting a News item update soon.  There are<BR>
>several people off-list who are awaiting write ups with baited breath :-)<BR>
<BR>
The moment I have two spare seconds, I'll do the html and the world map.<BR>
By the weekend, I promise.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 13:47:49 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Maps and Mains of the Imperium website...<BR>
<BR>
Sword-Worlder writes:<BR>
> <BR>
> The file is huge.  My little backwoods dial-up connection took a looo-oong<BR>
> time to get the whole thing.  But my wait was rewarded with a very nice<BR>
> product.  Too bad I don't have an 11x17 printer though, cuz a sector on a<BR>
> single 8.5x11" page is nigh impossible to read!<BR>
<BR>
Hm..I found it readable as long as I make sure to print at best quality.<BR>
<BR>
I need to regenerate some stuff anyway, it seems to be missing a lot of world<BR>
names with the data files I generated that from.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 17:00:01 -0400<BR>
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net><BR>
Subject: RE: Imported TL (was something about Heya)<BR>
<BR>
>While TL9 seeds, etc. are indeed TL9 equipment, the TL5 farmers can pretty<BR>
>much treat them just as they would natural seeds and TL5<BR>
>pesticides/fertilizer.  Because they do not have to alter their techniques<BR>
>beyond acquiring the materials from off-planet, I consider the farm's tech<BR>
>level to be unchanged.  If the tractors are anit-grav and robots are<BR>
>floating around, but they're using locally produced (TL5) seeds and<BR>
>pesticides, I would call it a tech 9 farm.  What's the distinction?  What<BR>
it<BR>
>looks like to a PC that happens by.<BR>
<BR>
So, then it's a matter of appearance then? So, if a society *looks* like a<BR>
TL5 society, it's actually a TL5 society. The fact that the use of improved<BR>
agricultural theory and advanced materials (pesticides, seeds and<BR>
fertilizers) are what actually changes the productive output of the world is<BR>
irrelevant, then? The assumption I make from this is that the TL rating of<BR>
an agricultural planet will have little or no impact whatsoever on what it<BR>
can produce?<BR>
<BR>
>If the people on the world know how to repair or produce a TL12 tractor,<BR>
but<BR>
>don't actually make tractor parts, they are still essentially TL12 as long<BR>
>as those tractors are available from somewhere else.  If they could build<BR>
>and repair TL12 items but can't buy them from any nearby planets and don't<BR>
>have the necessary materials (and therefore have no actual TL12 equipment),<BR>
>then they aren't TL12.<BR>
<BR>
Okay. I'm following you so far, I think. Then TL is pretty much useless as<BR>
an economic indicator. Fair enough. While I have some complaints with this,<BR>
at least I think I understand where you're coming from. TL is what the<BR>
players will see when they land on the planet. It has nothing to do with<BR>
what equipment they may purchase there, or what cargos they may pick up<BR>
there. You step off your ship and see TL12 air/rafts, you're on a TL12<BR>
world.<BR>
<BR>
>A device which is a throw-away at TL12 is TL12, even if it's used on a TL5<BR>
>world.<BR>
<BR>
That makes sense given the theory of TL you seem to have.<BR>
<BR>
>If everything on a world is imported from the TL12 world next door, then<BR>
the<BR>
>world is TL12.  If something changes that relationship and the world can no<BR>
>longer get TL12 equipment, it will revert to it's native tech level.<BR>
<BR>
Again, this makes sense according to the way you seem to handle things. How<BR>
would you go about handling the economic output of a world, or what<BR>
characters might be able to purchase on a world?<BR>
<BR>
>They are TL0.  If they get a bunch of TL7/8 assault rifles and<BR>
>transportation, then I would consider their TL raised.  One imported item<BR>
>doesn't change their tech level.<BR>
<BR>
Okay, this seems like a departure from what you were saying above, though,<BR>
specifically the issue about TL12 "throw away" devices. So, the society is<BR>
TL0, even though they are able to effectively use TL7/8 technology, and this<BR>
would be readily apparent to anybody who would visit them?<BR>
<BR>
>First, I do agree that hi-tech worlds should be able to sell to whoever<BR>
will<BR>
>buy.<BR>
>Second, I like the idea of "building-down".  It makes some amount of sense<BR>
>for a TL12 world to produce items that are maintainable with local<BR>
resources<BR>
>at their sale destinations, as the TL12 world can presumably produce<BR>
>lower-tech items for cheaper than the low-tech world can (using advanced<BR>
>production techniques).<BR>
<BR>
We don't sound like we're in strong disagreement on this one.<BR>
<BR>
>On the other hand, it makes sense to produce things that require imports of<BR>
>spare parts and maintenance techs.<BR>
>The general rule would have to be "whatever the market can bear."<BR>
<BR>
Fair enough. I don't think that we're in too much of a state of disagreement<BR>
on these points. I'm not comfortable with the notion that what TL a planet<BR>
looks like is the TL it is, but it's as good as any of the other<BR>
interpretations which happen to be floating around.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2256<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2257</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
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Traveller-digest      Thursday, April 6 2000      Volume 1999 : Number 2257<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: 10 foot ceilings <BR>
Re: Warrant of the Restoration<BR>
Traveller Bibliography: Was District 268 Canon<BR>
Re: Maps and Mains of the Imperium website...<BR>
RE: Tee En Ess<BR>
RE: Imported TL<BR>
Re: General Land Grab query<BR>
Re: Imperial Marine models?<BR>
L+ Megacorp (was RS)<BR>
Re: World population limits<BR>
Re: Supernova (was re: stories in the printed copy of NewScientist w hich relate toTraveller)<BR>
Re: Astronomy in the 57th Century<BR>
Re: Supernova (was re: stories in the printed copy of NewScientist w  hich relate toTraveller)<BR>
RE: Heya/Regina<BR>
Re: GT-Q: Ground Penetrating Radar and other toys<BR>
RE: Maps and Mains of the Imperium website...<BR>
RE: Query re: _First In_<BR>
New Madrid Fault (Ancestors Journal)<BR>
Re: _Scandalous_ Class Type S Scout/Courier Ship<BR>
SPI's "Outreach," and the Zho Core Missions<BR>
Re: Astronomy in the 57th Century<BR>
RE: Notes on building Heya<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 14:01:45 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: 10 foot ceilings <BR>
<BR>
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
<BR>
>> (10 x 10 x 10, the Standard Dungeon Cube.  Not to be confused<BR>
<BR>
>>with its Traveller equivalent, the Displacement-Ton of LHyd.)<BR>
><BR>
>Aka 'half a standard dungeon cube'.<BR>
<BR>
All of which were derived from the Japanese measure of internal<BR>
space, the tatami, but I don't recall how much we used it in<BR>
Bushido.<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.<BR>
http://im.yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 17:12:28 -0400<BR>
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Warrant of the Restoration<BR>
<BR>
For an attempt at some legal interpretation of all that,<BR>
which may be useful spiel for an Imperial lawyer to<BR>
spout in your games,<BR>
<BR>
http://portcaddo.com/bloo/traveller/implaw.htm<BR>
<BR>
bloo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 22:23:35 +0100<BR>
From: "Derrick Jones" <dojones.whitestar@btinternet.com><BR>
Subject: Traveller Bibliography: Was District 268 Canon<BR>
<BR>
>Lurker Newbie Alert<BR>
<BR>
>Could someone inform me as to the whys and wherefores of the Traveller <BR>
>Bibliography, especially where one can buy, trade, downloand or get a monk to <BR>
>copy one?  <BR>
<BR>
>Thanks,<BR>
>Michael Breen<BR>
<BR>
Michael,<BR>
<BR>
<Humour Mode><BR>
Believe me, don't waste your money on it. It only tells you just how pathetic<BR>
your Traveller collection is, and just how little money you'll have left when you<BR>
own 1/3 of what it details....<BR>
</Humour Mode><BR>
No, seriously, it is a brilliant piece of work. (an exhaustive piece of work I would <BR>
imagine). Tim Collinson has produced the best index I've seen for a gaming system <BR>
(Better than Meinz Index to Glorantha IMHO - 'cos it's Traveller based). "He obviously<BR>
has FAR too much free time on his hands, and a serious lack of chums!" - To quote<BR>
a member of our gaming group. Oh, and Tim's a really nice guy too.<BR>
<BR>
BITS produce the A4 plastic backed booklet (with a cover which describes the contents<BR>
very well) in its usual style, and it is very attractively priced. You can find out BITS own<BR>
blurb about it on the BITS web-site at http://www.bits.org.uk under the products section.<BR>
It can also tell you how to order it. (If you are stateside I think you can get it from SJG)<BR>
<BR>
Hope this helps. It is definitely the best thing I've bought for Traveller in a long while.<BR>
<BR>
Derrick<BR>
<BR>
Derrick Jones<BR>
St Helens<BR>
Lancashire UK<BR>
http://www.btinternet.com/~dojones.whitestar<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 16:10:54 -0600 (CST)<BR>
From: "Jason Kemp" <Jason.Kemp@tdh.state.tx.us><BR>
Subject: Re: Maps and Mains of the Imperium website...<BR>
<BR>
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
<BR>
> My server section is apparently down.  I have the information locally, but<BR>
> I'm not sure how well my mailer handles binaries and its a 1.2 megabyte<BR>
> file.<BR>
<BR>
I'm willing to try if you are. However, I understand if you don't <BR>
want to, because of how it might clog up your system. Otherwise, I <BR>
can wait until the server comes back up again. Barely, but I can <BR>
wait. :)<BR>
<BR>
Thanks,<BR>
Jason<BR>
<BR>
=============================<BR>
Jason Kemp, ADS Programmer IV<BR>
(512)458-7111 ext. 1+3375<BR>
Internet Address:  jason.kemp@tdh.state.tx.us<BR>
<BR>
Most computer virus and email alerts are hoaxes.  For more info, check out:<BR>
http://urbanlegends.miningco.com/culture/beliefs/urbanlegends/library/blhoax.htm<BR>
==============================<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 14:35:59 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Tee En Ess<BR>
<BR>
>From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
<BR>
>Glenn, you give me the algorthms and processes, I'll write them<BR>
<BR>
>in Java, and just to keep Leonard and his ancient machines <BR>
>happy I'll see about porting the Java to C++ and compiling a <BR>
>dos exe. If I can still find my archive of DOS C++ compilers <BR>
>somewhere.<BR>
<BR>
I'm not sure where to start on algorithms and processes, but let<BR>
me draft something in plain English and send it to you off-list.<BR>
 That may take a few weeks, as the Real World (tm) is<BR>
interfering in my life right now.<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.<BR>
http://im.yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 16:16:05 -0600 <BR>
From: Jason Postma <JasonP@i-link.net><BR>
Subject: RE: Imported TL<BR>
<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
From: Chris Seamans [mailto:semo@pil.net]<BR>
<BR>
>Okay. I'm following you so far, I think. *snip* TL is what the<BR>
players will see when they land on the planet. It has nothing to do with<BR>
what equipment they may purchase there, or what cargos they may pick up<BR>
there. You step off your ship and see TL12 air/rafts, you're on a TL12<BR>
world.<<BR>
<BR>
On the vast majority of worlds IMTU, if you step off of your ship and see<BR>
TL12 air/rafts zipping around, you can go to a local dealer and buy one.<BR>
Maybe the air/rafts are all off- world imports because this world doesn't<BR>
have the capability (or manpower) to manufacture them, but they're locally<BR>
available or the locals wouldn't have them.  This means that TL is usually a<BR>
fine basis to start from for what players can buy on the planet (usually<BR>
I'll also take law level and population into consideration before deciding<BR>
on an item's availability or price). <BR>
<BR>
>How would you go about handling the economic output of a world?<<BR>
<BR>
As far as the economic output of a world, I haven't worried about it much.<BR>
I use the various trade rules (for whatever system I'm using at the moment)<BR>
pretty much as written, with a dose of common sense, and that serves<BR>
adequately for free trader economics (the only thing my players get into).<BR>
I haven't yet seen the need to analyze GWPs or anything like that.  If I'm<BR>
designing a world I consider what sort of things are produced locally and<BR>
traded, but I don't give hard numbers (my degree's in English, not<BR>
Economics).  <BR>
<BR>
(speaking of a group of TL0 hunter/gatherers with TL7/8 hand-cranked radios)<BR>
>They are TL0.  If they get a bunch of TL7/8 assault rifles and<BR>
>transportation, then I would consider their TL raised.  One imported item<BR>
>doesn't change their tech level.<BR>
<BR>
>Okay, this seems like a departure from what you were saying above, though,<BR>
specifically the issue about TL12 "throw away" devices. So, the society is<BR>
TL0, even though they are able to effectively use TL7/8 technology, and this<BR>
would be readily apparent to anybody who would visit them?<<BR>
<BR>
In the example, they're using one item of TL7/8 tech and it's an obvious<BR>
import while everything else they use is TL0.  As the majority of what they<BR>
use is TL0, so is their society.<BR>
<BR>
IMTU TL isn't a good measure of what the natives CAN use if it's available,<BR>
it's more of a measure of what they DO use.<BR>
It's also important for their use of technology to be stable.  Whether this<BR>
means that they have a steady source of high-tech imports or make them<BR>
themselves doesn't matter as much as that they have a good supply of the<BR>
items.  If a planet has a recent influx of high-tech items, the TL may<BR>
eventually change, but only if it's a stable condition, and only if it<BR>
affects a substantial amount of the population and their posessions.<BR>
Two good things that contribute to this technological stability are<BR>
understanding the items and being able to manufacture them yourselves, so<BR>
the majority of planets in the Imperium understand their technology and<BR>
produce it locally.  Hi-tech, low population worlds generally import their<BR>
technology but usually understand it too, and can maintain it.  <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 15:34:19 -0700<BR>
From: Jim Cooper <tloql@home.com><BR>
Subject: Re: General Land Grab query<BR>
<BR>
Regardless of where it is posted, may I have a copy as that is supposed<BR>
to be my Homeworld and it would be nice to know how it compares to what<BR>
I had envisioned.<BR>
<BR>
scharlto@ifsna.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> This may have been covered already and I missed it.<BR>
><BR>
> What is the preferred medium for the Land Grab?  My Spirelle<BR>
> writeup is getting large, and might fill a digest or three.  Is<BR>
> the idea to post it in sections, put it on the web, or both?<BR>
><BR>
> Steven Charlton<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 17:06:06 -0700<BR>
From: Jim Cooper <tloql@home.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Imperial Marine models?<BR>
<BR>
OK you two.  Knock it off already.<BR>
<BR>
Jim Cooper<BR>
<BR>
Steven Hudson wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> >From: "James W. Lindsay" <jlindsay@home.com><BR>
> >Subject: Re: Imperial Marine models? (was Re: Combat Armor)<BR>
> ...<BR>
> >> >Then there's the company that makes 1/6th "Aliens" armor, weapons, and<BR>
> >> >accessories for 1:6 scale figures which are starting to really boom in<BR>
> >> >popularity. Check out http://members.aol.com/M56SG/uscm.html to see what I<BR>
> ...<BR>
> >>   Well, given that a 1:_16th_ kit - even in resin - would be _far_ cheaper<BR>
> >> than those figures, it's still nice to know that people will shell out huge<BR>
> >> amounts of money for cool toys - although those VW restoration guys worry me.<BR>
> ><BR>
> >Now I'm certain of it!  And I don't "restore" old VWs... I "customize" them<BR>
> >to the point that they eat Mustangs for breakfast...<BR>
><BR>
>   Right, and next you'll claim that you can stop anytime you want - that you<BR>
> don't _have_ to do them, you _want_ to; it's denial, dude. OTOH, I guess it's<BR>
> not so bad so long as you don't find yourself trying to convince everyone<BR>
> that the T4 Vehicles book was really an underappreciated great work :><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 18:05:37 -0400 <BR>
From: "Garcia, Abel" <agarcia@US.RHODIA.COM><BR>
Subject: L+ Megacorp (was RS)<BR>
<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
From: J-Man [mailto:j-man@iname.com]<BR>
It is my understanding that simply talking to Roger Sanger merely elicits<BR>
either verbal abuse from him or impractical demands (as his 'request' for a<BR>
6-figure sum for the rights to the DGP materials).<BR>
<BR>
TML,<BR>
<BR>
This also probably has long been talked about, but here it goes anyway: has<BR>
the list considered getting 50+ people together with each contributing $500<BR>
to the effort and then approach RS with a serious offer?  Then this "L-corp"<BR>
would turn around and "allow" MM to reprint them as part of current<BR>
"reprints" run for a modest license fee. Sure we wouldn't make our grand<BR>
back but we each would get an autographed copy of each (hardbound;) reprint!<BR>
(Yes this is a serious question.)<BR>
<BR>
Abel<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 17:27:23 -0700<BR>
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: World population limits<BR>
<BR>
James W. Lindsay wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> On Wed, 5 Apr 2000 08:52:11 -0400, Alvin wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> > "The typical population density for suburban areas is 10,000<BR>
> > - 20,000 per sq. km.  If Imperial City were only as heavily<BR>
> > populated as the suburbs, the population would be in the<BR>
> > order of nine trillion persons.<BR>
> <BR>
> [snip]<BR>
> <BR>
> Ok, let's say that I want to create a world with sprawling megalopolises or<BR>
> towering archologies: how would I go about doing it realistically with only<BR>
> the population of present day TL8 Earth?<BR>
> <BR>
> Smaller planets help (naturally), as would those worlds with large<BR>
> hydrospheres (assuming the TL isn't high enough to allow under-sea or<BR>
> floating cities).  Real estate would need to be set aside for uninhabited<BR>
> land, for farms, nature reserves, etc.  But how much is enough?<BR>
<BR>
Arcologies <> Sprawling Megalopolises. That is stuff that's seeped into<BR>
the literature via things like 'Bladerunner' and 'Oath of Fealty' where<BR>
they are used as havens from the decaying megaloplis outside. Arcologies<BR>
were originally conceived to be a way of _avoiding_ the decaying<BR>
megalopolis altogether.<BR>
<BR>
Check out, sometime, some of the stuff at Arcosanti's web site:<BR>
<BR>
http://www.arcosanti.org/arcosanti/index.html<BR>
<BR>
This has info from the guy who invented the term arcology. The main aim<BR>
was to allow for a large city's worth of people to live sustainably and<BR>
comfortably in an environment more akin to a small village: everything<BR>
is within walking distance, no cars, no trains, etc.<BR>
<BR>
Large Teeming Arcologies (LTA's) don't have to be on barren worlds<BR>
chockablock with people: the world could resemble mythic Southern<BR>
California, and the residents want to keep it that way. LTA's allow high<BR>
population densities without a concomittant massive impact on the<BR>
ecosystem, if done properly.<BR>
<BR>
Huge Sprawling Megalopolises, on the other hand are, essentially, what<BR>
Southern California's turned into now. I see a lot of Soleri-style LTA's<BR>
beng founded by refugees from HSM's...<BR>
<BR>
At one point, I saw an outline about how a single arcology, essentially<BR>
a 1 cubic mile in size could easily hold the population of Tucson (then<BR>
a few hundred thousand) allowing the rest of the sprawling city to<BR>
revert to the wild.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Bruce Johnson<BR>
University of Arizona<BR>
College of Pharmacy<BR>
Information Technology Group<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 15:24:49 -0700<BR>
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Supernova (was re: stories in the printed copy of NewScientist w hich relate toTraveller)<BR>
<BR>
SD Mooney wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> At 8:51 -0400 5/4/00, "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz> wrote:<BR>
> >I have only one thing to say :  "Inconstant Moon"<BR>
> <BR>
> Shouldn't that be 'It's better to burn out than to fade away!' ;-)<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
Well, we all know how _that_ one ended, didn't we...poor bugger just<BR>
lost his head trying to win. Served him right for being rude to the<BR>
nums, being that they're related to the penguins and all. :-P <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Bruce Johnson<BR>
University of Arizona<BR>
College of Pharmacy<BR>
Information Technology Group<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 22:35:25 -0500<BR>
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Astronomy in the 57th Century<BR>
<BR>
Lewis Roberts wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
<<snip>><BR>
> <BR>
> The biggest problem with the neutrino telescope is figuring out how to shield it<BR>
> from the fusion power planet powering the observatory.  The observatory will be<BR>
> too far from any star for solar power to work.  The astronomers will know where<BR>
> the fusion power plant is and will be able to remove it from the image.<BR>
<BR>
Does anyone know what the neutrino flux (if any) would be for a fission<BR>
plant?<BR>
<BR>
<<snip>><BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 21:48:56 -0500<BR>
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Supernova (was re: stories in the printed copy of NewScientist w  hich relate toTraveller)<BR>
<BR>
"Frank G. Pitt" wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
<<snip>><BR>
> > ><BR>
> <snip><BR>
> > Or how about a recently-aired episode of "The Outer Limits"...a physicist<BR>
> > realizes the Sun will go Nova and wipe out everything on Earth. He decides<BR>
> > to spend the last few hours of Life with a girl he could never approach.<BR>
> ><BR>
> > ONLY that the Nova turned out to be a great big flare.....<BR>
> <BR>
> I have only one thing to say :  "Inconstant Moon"<BR>
<BR>
I was thinking of "The Year of the Jackpot" by Heinlein....<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 17:43:59 -0400<BR>
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca><BR>
Subject: RE: Heya/Regina<BR>
<BR>
Douglas Berry writes:<BR>
>Well, here it is:<BR>
<snipped><BR>
>SUMMARY: An agricultural world, which is vital to the stability of the<BR>
>subsector.<BR>
<snipped><BR>
>Heya is tilted 55 degrees, and orbits Bellus once every 247.5 days. This<BR>
>extreme tilt, combined with the relatively dense atmosphere (1.2 atm) makes<BR>
>weather on Heya very intense.  The passage of Zyra adds to the energy<BR>
>potential of the atmosphere, creating even stronger storms once a standard<BR>
>century.<BR>
<BR>
	This should make TL 5 farming interesting.  Had you considered toning<BR>
	down the weather a little?<BR>
<BR>
<snipped><BR>
>One interesting adaptation is fasciweed, which<BR>
>secretes a gluey resin. When individual plants are blown into each other,<BR>
>they stick together, increasing their collective strength.  Facsiweed is a<BR>
>major cash crop, but also a major annoyance as it tends to stick to<BR>
>everything is touches.<BR>
<BR>
	Nice touch.<BR>
<BR>
>Area producers like most grasses never developed on Heya. The need for<BR>
>plants to grab energy from the weak light of Bellus caused plants to<BR>
>develop broad leaves. This blocks out the light, leaving surface types to<BR>
>starve. Despite this, there are several types of moss-like plant that feed<BR>
>on the decaying leaves of the larger plants around them.<BR>
<BR>
	Perhaps a breif outline of the major agricultural products?<BR>
<BR>
<snipped><BR>
>ECONOMY:  Heya is an agricultural world, and ships the majority of its<BR>
>produce to the high population worlds of Regina subsector.  Fasciweed in<BR>
>particular is quite nutritious, and is ground into flour or meal.  Heyan is<BR>
>also known for its seafood, but this is more a delicacy than a staple.  The<BR>
>cost of shipping from remote Heya makes Heyan seafood extremely expensive.<BR>
>As such, it has become something of a status symbol on Efate/Regina.<BR>
<snipped><BR>
<BR>
	Ah, there it is.  Just how far do you suppose that this sort of<BR>
	goods might be shipped?  I could see specialty items like gourmet<BR>
	foods going across a subsector or two, but shipments across <BR>
	sectors must be unusual.<BR>
<BR>
Peez<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 15:09:09 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: GT-Q: Ground Penetrating Radar and other toys<BR>
<BR>
>From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net><BR>
<BR>
>Not yet.  During the GT: Imperial Navy playtest, I brought this<BR>
>issue up, and it was extensively discussed.  Most of the <BR>
>Traveller grognards agreed that there should be some reference <BR>
>to at least some degree of "chameleon skin", though not <BR>
>necessarily with the same definition as in GVE2.  However, <BR>
>since GT: IN has been pulled out of playtest for further<BR>
>revision, I don't know whether this interpretation will be<BR>
>included in GT products.<BR>
<BR>
I guess I'm a grognard.  Anyway, I like the idea of chameleon<BR>
surface at least for naval and scout ships above a certain tech<BR>
level (maybe CT/MT TL 13?).  The chameleon surface should do the<BR>
following:  <BR>
<BR>
- -adopt any color and pattern, from computer memory or from<BR>
reading the visual sensors facing one direction and putting that<BR>
output on the opposite facing of the ship (computer memory would<BR>
have the "dress uniform" of a ship, although the chameleon skin<BR>
and software could read another ship's "uniform" and adopt that<BR>
as an easy task); <BR>
<BR>
- -mimic hot and cold patterns in the same manner, although<BR>
possibly not at the actual temperatures (which could be beyond<BR>
the chameleon skin's circuitry and/or dangerous to the skin and<BR>
even the hull); <BR>
<BR>
- -at higher levels, mimic other background information (like<BR>
other electromagnetic phenomena or hard radiation) typically<BR>
observed by sensors of enemy vessels;<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.<BR>
http://im.yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 17:24:54 -0700<BR>
From: "Tsykoduk" <Tsykoduk@bigfoot.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Maps and Mains of the Imperium website...<BR>
<BR>
I have a server that I could and would be more then happy to host it on.<BR>
Contact me off list if you need to do that, and we can arrange it.<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
> The file is huge.  My little backwoods dial-up connection took a looo-oong<BR>
> time to get the whole thing.  But my wait was rewarded with a very nice<BR>
> product.  Too bad I don't have an 11x17 printer though, cuz a sector on a<BR>
> single 8.5x11" page is nigh impossible to read!<BR>
<BR>
Hm..I found it readable as long as I make sure to print at best quality.<BR>
<BR>
I need to regenerate some stuff anyway, it seems to be missing a lot of<BR>
world<BR>
names with the data files I generated that from.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 16:24:40 -0700<BR>
From: Jesse DeGraff <jdegraff@pacbell.net><BR>
Subject: RE: Query re: _First In_<BR>
<BR>
Guilty as charged.  BTW, there's no "e" at the end of my last name.  You<BR>
should know that Jason ;)<BR>
<BR>
Jesse<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Jason Kemp<BR>
> Sent: Wednesday, April 05, 2000 12:20 PM<BR>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> Subject: Re: Query re: _First In_<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)<BR>
><BR>
> >   Who did the illustrations of the Donosev-class Survey Ship in<BR>
> _First In_?<BR>
><BR>
> Why, our very own Jesse DeGraffe. Check out his incredible work at:<BR>
><BR>
> http://www.vision-forge-graphics.com/jesse/traveller/welcome_to_the_pa<BR>
> tinir_belt.htm<BR>
><BR>
> With Regards,<BR>
> Jason<BR>
><BR>
> =============================<BR>
> Jason Kemp, ADS Programmer IV<BR>
> (512)458-7111 ext. 1+3375<BR>
> Internet Address:  jason.kemp@tdh.state.tx.us<BR>
><BR>
> Most computer virus and email alerts are hoaxes.  For more info,<BR>
> check out:<BR>
> http://urbanlegends.miningco.com/culture/beliefs/urbanlegends/libr<BR>
ary/blhoax.htm<BR>
==============================<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 21:22:07 -0500<BR>
From: Jimmy Simpson <nimrod@santech.com><BR>
Subject: New Madrid Fault (Ancestors Journal)<BR>
<BR>
I dug out a copy of a journal that one of my ancestors (George Heinrich <BR>
Crist) kept while living in Nelson County, Kentucky during the <BR>
earthquake.  Here are entries from the journal describing the earthquakes <BR>
of Dec 16, Jan 23 and Feb 7:<BR>
<BR>
"There was a great shaking of the earth this morning.  Tables and chairs <BR>
turned over and knocked around - all of us knocked out of bed.  The roar I <BR>
thought would leave us deaf if we lived.  it was not a storm.  When you <BR>
could hear, all you could hear was screams of people and animals.  It was <BR>
the worst thing I have ever witnessed.  It was still dark and you could not <BR>
see nothing.  I thought the shaking and the loud roaring sound would never <BR>
stop.  You could not hold onto nothing neither man or woman was strong <BR>
enough - the shaking would knock you lose like knocking hickor nuts out of <BR>
a tree.  I do not know how we lived through it.  None of us was killed - we <BR>
was all banged up and some of us knocked out for awhile and blood was every <BR>
where.  When it got day break you could see the damage done all around.  We <BR>
still had our home it was some damage.  Some people that the home was not <BR>
built to strong did not.  We will have to hunt our animals.  I made my mind <BR>
up to one thing.  If this earth quake or what ever it was did not happen in <BR>
the Territory of Indiana then me and my family is moving to Pigeon Roost as <BR>
soon as I can get things together.<BR>
                      16 December 1811"<BR>
<BR>
"What are we gonna do?  You cannot fight it cause you do not know how.  It <BR>
is not something that you can see.  in a storm you can see the sky and it <BR>
shows dark clouds and you know that you might get strong winds but this you <BR>
can not see anything but a house that just lays in a pile on the ground - <BR>
not scattered around and trees that just falls over with the roots still on <BR>
it.  The earth quake of what ever it is came again today,  It was as bad or <BR>
worse than the one in December.  We lost our Amandy Jane in this one - a <BR>
log fell on her.  We will bury her upon the hill under a clump of trees <BR>
where Besys Ma and Pa is buried.  A lot of people thinks that the devil has <BR>
come here.  Some thinks that this is the beginning of the world coming to a <BR>
end.<BR>
                      23 January 1812"<BR>
<BR>
"If we do not get away from here the ground is going to eat us alive.  We <BR>
had another one of them earthquakes yesterday and today the ground still <BR>
shakes at times.  We are all about to go crazy - from pain and fright.  We <BR>
can not do anything until we find our animals or get some more.  We have <BR>
not found enough to pull our wagons.<BR>
                       8 February 1812"<BR>
<BR>
More bits of info on the earthquakes from another book written a few years <BR>
after the quakes.<BR>
<BR>
"Monday, December 16 at 2:00 A.M. the earthquake began.  Just after <BR>
daylight came additional tremendus shocks from the earthquake, and although <BR>
the tremors moderated after eight o'clock, there were not ten minutes <BR>
during all of Monday when the earth was still."<BR>
"In the months following there was scarcely on hour when the earth did not <BR>
tremble.  Near the end of January, on the twenty-third, there was another <BR>
shock, which over a five minute period increased to tremendous <BR>
intensity.  It was equal in force to the first upheaval that collapsed the <BR>
kitchen chimney at Rock Hill.  In Louisville houses were badly damaged and <BR>
boatmen on the river found themselves in great danger.  'This is a <BR>
disastrous time for navigators of the Ohio who happen to be hereabout upon <BR>
the river, seven boats have been seen passing on the falls today; some with <BR>
and some without crews onboard; no human power can afford relief to the <BR>
sufferers, nor can they help themselves but drift on until chance may <BR>
decide their fate; ...much howling and lamentation were heard from a boat <BR>
entering the falls this night, voices of men women and children."<BR>
"Nine days of comparative quiet passes and then, during the first week of <BR>
February, (the 7th) - the tremors rose gradually in a slow crescendo to a <BR>
climax of violence in the dark early hours of the morning of the <BR>
seventh.  It was the most severe disturbance of the year-long span of the <BR>
earthquake, the worst single shock ever recorded on the North American <BR>
continent."<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Jimmy Simpson<BR>
       nimrodd@fastlane.net<BR>
<BR>
"... you may all go to hell<BR>
and I will go to Texas."<BR>
                       -David Crockett<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 00:58:19 EDT<BR>
From: Damage169@cs.com<BR>
Subject: Re: _Scandalous_ Class Type S Scout/Courier Ship<BR>
<BR>
Nick Bradbeer writes:<BR>
<BR>
>  >When someone mentioned that you can buy about 100 scout/couriers for the<BR>
>  price of one real warship, I decided that I just _had_ to post this:<BR>
>  <BR>
>  <BR>
>  Aaargh! You know, one day soon I'm going to have to arrange for orbital<BR>
>  bombardment of AuricTech's head office. It's enough to make an engineer <BR>
cry.<BR>
>  <BR>
>  Nick<BR>
<BR>
Nah! Just wait for the Famile Spofulum Corporate Aqcuisitions Team to buy him <BR>
out.<BR>
<BR>
Doug G.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 00:27:12 EDT<BR>
From: Damage169@cs.com<BR>
Subject: SPI's "Outreach," and the Zho Core Missions<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 4/3/00 9:30:30 AM Central Daylight Time, Leonard Erickson <BR>
writes:<BR>
<BR>
> Just for reference, I've got the old SPI game Outreach. The map covers<BR>
>  about 2/3rds of the galaxy. The *entire* "known space" map won't fill<BR>
>  one *hex* on that map. Matter of fact, it won't even come *close* (the<BR>
>  hexes are about 400 parsecs across!)<BR>
>  <BR>
>  On *that* scale, we can't visit much of anything useful, even with<BR>
>  Traveller tech. A galaxy is a *big* place. <BR>
>  <BR>
<BR>
Might one be able to simulate the Zhodani Core missions (at least their basic <BR>
route) with this game? Is the map set up for clusters of stars or 'important' <BR>
individual stars?<BR>
<BR>
Doug G.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 23:17:31 -0800<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Astronomy in the 57th Century<BR>
<BR>
"Smith, Walter" <SmithW@hartwick.edu> wrote<BR>
<BR>
> Peter Newman wrote:<BR>
> >Alternatively we could run the station off of batteries <BR>
> >and periodically recharge them by turning on the stations <BR>
> >fusion plant once a month or so but I suspect that this <BR>
> >would interfere with long term observations. <BR>
> <BR>
> Turning on the fusion plant might be less disruptive (and certainly<BR>
> more predictable) than having a starship with an operational fusion<BR>
> plant jump in and another one jump out. The one coming in might be<BR>
> able to exit jump on battery power, but the one jumping out will need<BR>
> to run her fusion plant full bore. Add to this whatever disruptions<BR>
> jump entry and exit cause.<BR>
> Then there's predictability. You can know when you're turning the<BR>
> fusion plant on and off, the expected battery ship could show up<BR>
> anytime over a span of days - more, if the ship is delayed leaving<BR>
> port.<BR>
<BR>
That is all quite true but the stations fusion plant will be<BR>
much closer than that of an incoming ship. Therefore its signature<BR>
will be brighter and will be spread over a greater angle.<BR>
If the ship jumps in relatively far away it will be less<BR>
disturbing to the station.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 20:19:05 -0400<BR>
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net><BR>
Subject: RE: Notes on building Heya<BR>
<BR>
>	Fair questions.  Is a farm that uses TL 6 tractors and TL 1 seed TL 6<BR>
>	or TL 1?  My own take is that if the PCs land their starship in a<BR>
>	cultivated field on a TL 6 world, they can expect to see TL 6 tractors<BR>
>	and plants growing.  If they really want to know where the seed or the<BR>
>	tractor came from, I might allow imports from the nearest Industrial<BR>
>	world.<BR>
<BR>
	Okay, so on your line, tech levels are purely cosmetic. TL is simply<BR>
indicative of what kind of big machines the characters might see when they<BR>
land, not what they can buy there.<BR>
<BR>
>	This fits in fine with my definition.<BR>
<BR>
	Indeed, it does seem to, at least to some extent. I'm not interested solely<BR>
in what the characters see, but what they can buy there, what they can sell,<BR>
and what the planet "feels like". It's a general indicator for me, not the<BR>
TL of the big machines the characters might come across.<BR>
<BR>
>>It is mentioned that this represents the sorts of things that the<BR>
>>planet can produce locally.<BR>
><BR>
>	This part is a little tricky, because there are lots of worlds with<BR>
>	low Pop and high TL that would have trouble producing all of their<BR>
>	own stuff.<BR>
<BR>
	Which is why I said that official definitions tend to "muddy the waters".<BR>
:)<BR>
<BR>
>>MegaTraveller muddied the waters a bit by saying<BR>
>>that the Tech Level of the planet represented the tech level of the<BR>
starport<BR>
>>and surrounding area, but other areas on the planet may have a lower tech<BR>
>>level.<BR>
><BR>
>	I would allow some flexibility here, but as a general rule I tend to<BR>
>	treat a worlds TL as generally consistent (for simplicity).<BR>
<BR>
	Fair enough. That would make sense if TL indicates only those things that<BR>
the characters may actually see.<BR>
<BR>
>	I think that my point has been lost in the shuffle.  I agree that it<BR>
>	is very easy to defend TL disparity in game terms, I was only suggesting<BR>
>	that it is difficult to defend the disparity in terms of "hard" SF (IMHO).<BR>
>	I have no problem with the disparity IMTU, and rarely give it any thought<BR>
>	at all.  I only brought it up in response to earlier comments in the<BR>
>	thread.<BR>
<BR>
	It's also very easy to defend the disparity "realistically". The<BR>
distribution networks may not exist for various goods on various worlds.<BR>
Take, for instance, a possible interpretation of your Heya. High tech seeds<BR>
and pesticides can be distributed, as can high-tech tractors made to<BR>
function at a lower tech level. However, there may be no method for<BR>
distributing high tech weapons, or certain types of practical or luxury<BR>
goods. The reasoning can be added later. For example, maybe Sharurshid<BR>
provides the distribution for farm machinery, and owns vast tracts of<BR>
farmland. The megacorporation reaps most of the profits, but not much goes<BR>
to the farmers. This means that there aren't a lot of consumers on Heya, and<BR>
as such, other megacorporations have little interest in distributing high<BR>
tech goods there. As a result, the only non-farming equipment generally<BR>
available is locally produced TL4 equipment.<BR>
<BR>
	Is such a situation reasonable within your model?<BR>
<BR>
	Of course, this begs the question as to why Sharurshid has to get its hands<BR>
on TL5 tractors that are manufactured on TL12 worlds at all.<BR>
<BR>
>>Going with the former means that you have to deal with, and define, what<BR>
>>makes a given tech level a tech level.<BR>
><BR>
>	Of course, and I have.  It indicates the technology that is in<BR>
>	widely available on a world, that which PCs are typically going<BR>
>	to run into.  I don't really need anything more specific than<BR>
>	that.<BR>
<BR>
	Then what you're saying is that TLs are "soft", which was actually the<BR>
other option you presented, and the one you said that you didn't agree with.<BR>
If, on the other hand, you actually went with what you said, you would have<BR>
indicated why interstellar trade doesn't equalize TLs quickly, which means<BR>
you have to have some understanding of what makes a world listed as TL5 a<BR>
TL5 society, and not a TL4 or TL6 society.<BR>
<BR>
	I don't think that I'm being unreasonable. It seems to me that you<BR>
initially said that you have an idea of why it's difficult for a world to go<BR>
up in TL via of trade. You then placed this position in opposition to a<BR>
"soft" understanding of TL. This led me to believe, obviously erroneously,<BR>
that you viewed your understanding as "hard", and that clear boundaries<BR>
exist between tech levels.<BR>
<BR>
	However, in your recent post, you seem to have stepped back a bit, by<BR>
adopting a position that TL indicates the kind of big machines characters<BR>
may run into on a world. I guess that's fine, but that doesn't seem to be<BR>
the position you were originally championing.<BR>
<BR>
>	It might still be argued that having one or two steam engines does<BR>
>	not qualify a world as TL 4, but this is entirely beside the point.<BR>
<BR>
	It is beside the point, because I never said "one or two" steam engines. I<BR>
was asking if the steam engine was enough to make a TL1 society a TL3<BR>
society. More broadly, the question involved the interactions between the<BR>
various levels of technology, which you originally seemed to indicate that<BR>
you had a notion about.<BR>
<BR>
>	Representing the technology available to an entire world in all the<BR>
>	different disciplines with one number has inherent limitations.  If<BR>
>	you cannot live with such limitations, it is possible to specify<BR>
>	development of technology in more detail.  I find the simple system<BR>
>	more desirable, but allow myself to include TL 1 steam engines on<BR>
>	occasion if I desire.  YMMV.<BR>
<BR>
So, then it's possible to have TL1 steam engines. A steam engine is not<BR>
actually a TL3 device, then. Fair enough, although honestly, I don't<BR>
understand it.<BR>
<BR>
>>Basically, if you treat TLs as hard, you face the challenge of figuring<BR>
out<BR>
>>what the threshold between TLs actually is. Good luck. I don't envy you on<BR>
>>the task you've selected for yourself. :)<BR>
><BR>
>	Not at all.  I pay little attention to the issue, it merely came up<BR>
>	in the discussion of agricultural production on Heya.<BR>
<BR>
Your comments indicated that you had a system that required you to pay<BR>
attention to the issue, that there was some sort of economic consideration<BR>
at hand, and that TLs were, in some way clear.<BR>
<BR>
>>While you're doing that, I'll give be giving my own worlds their own<BR>
flavor<BR>
>>by using the tech level listing in the Universal Planetary Profile as a<BR>
>>starting point. I'm not saying that my way is better, but it involves less<BR>
>>work on my part.<BR>
><BR>
>	I'm not sure why you think that I'm doing something different, but<BR>
>	I wish you well.<BR>
<BR>
Because, up until this message, you've expressed a totally different<BR>
position than you are presenting now. If you had simply said, "I don't<BR>
really have an opinion on it, I just use it to indicate what kind of big<BR>
machines the characters might run into," I wouldn't have had to spend time<BR>
trying to figure out where you were coming from. Instead you said that you<BR>
would hesitate to have the major industry of TL5 a world dominated by a<BR>
higher tech level, implying that there was some economic reasoning behind<BR>
your theory of how tech levels work, and what could or couldn't be found on<BR>
a given world.<BR>
<BR>
>>I'm not even talking about gravitic soil-turners and robotic fruit-pickers<BR>
>>here. I'm talking about hybrid crops, advanced pesticides, improved<BR>
>>agricultural theory, and so on. At what point does TL5 farming become TL6?<BR>
>>At what point does TL4 farming become TL5? If TL4 farming becomes TL5, and<BR>
>>the society exports mostly agricultural products, is the society<BR>
classified<BR>
>>as TL5? What if the industrial capability of the world is TL1, the<BR>
>>construction technology at TL2 and the materials technology at TL0?<BR>
><BR>
>	Not something I worry about.  For me, TL is just a general indication<BR>
>	of what you see when you leave the starport.  Maybe there is one<BR>
>	air/raft-taxi, but are the streets filled with gnart-and-buggies?<BR>
<BR>
Fair enough, but why enter yourself into a discussion with someone who<BR>
clearly does worry about it, and wants to work out interesting ideas and<BR>
ways to handle the problems in the TL system? More importantly, why bother<BR>
to present a position that clearly doesn't reflect the way that you seem to<BR>
actually handle things?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2257<BR>
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Traveller-digest      Thursday, April 6 2000      Volume 1999 : Number 2258<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
geez, what happened?<BR>
The Imperium and the 20th Century - Perfect together?<BR>
what is tech level?<BR>
Re: Grossly Expensive Products (was: Re: Filk explosion!...)<BR>
RE: Notes on building Heya<BR>
re: Supernova <BR>
TL of the Rule of Man (was Re: Notes on building Heya)<BR>
Re: Traveller Bibliography: Was District 268 Canon<BR>
Tech Levels: My Cr 0.02 Worth<BR>
RE: Supernova (was re: stories in the printed copy ofNewScientist w hich relate toTraveller)<BR>
RE: Traveller Bibliography: Was District 268 Canon<BR>
Re: Astronomy in the 57th Century<BR>
RE: Filk explosion! Dulinor went to Capital<BR>
Madoc Subsector Question<BR>
Re: Astronomy in the 57th Century<BR>
RE: Query re: _First In_<BR>
New Madrid Fault (Ancestors Journal)<BR>
Desperatly Seeking Gearhead<BR>
FF&S2: Universal grapples question<BR>
Re: Tech Levels: My Cr 0.02 Worth<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 17:21:02 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: geez, what happened?<BR>
<BR>
>From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com>Subject:<BR>
>Re: <BR>
>At 10:09 PM 4/4/2000 -0700, you wrote:><BR>
>>having been away from traveller on the web, and having<BR>
>>just recently completed going thru the archives thru<BR>
>>'97, i'm dismayed by the more acrimonious and<BR>
>>confrontational letters i'm seeing lately.  geez, what<BR>
>>happened?<BR>
><BR>
>Um, what specifically?  We are a contentious lot, and sometimes<BR>
<BR>
>let our passions run away from us a bit.<BR>
>To be honest, this seems to be one of the TML's quieter <BR>
>periods...<BR>
<BR>
Doug you don't know what you're talking about the list is full<BR>
of hateful invective and ad hominem attacks and you're just<BR>
willfully blind to them you unpleasant parasiti89 av87 ;iva<BR>
awoe897 asdlvj 32452@#$% SAFG as9DF8wetj -w0gf9 3w46tojq aweu<BR>
q34$%@ q3245Q $@5 <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Yes, thank you, I appreciate the stress pill.  I feel much<BR>
better now.  Really I do.  You needn't worry.  Everything is<BR>
fine.  I'm just going to read the rest of the digest and have a<BR>
glass of warm milk now.  <BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
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<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 22:07:42 -0400<BR>
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net><BR>
Subject: The Imperium and the 20th Century - Perfect together?<BR>
<BR>
Jason Postma said:<BR>
<BR>
>Hmm.  I was wondering why I hadn't heard anything back.<BR>
>Unfortunately, I lack the disk space to save the huge amount of traffic<BR>
that<BR>
>comes through the TML.  My last post was something to the effect of "Your<BR>
>reasons for discounting my links of culture are because 20th century<BR>
culture<BR>
>is similar to and derivative of past cultures.  Instead of having me set up<BR>
>more pins for you to knock down, why don't you tell me what you find<BR>
>distinctive and unique about 20th century western culture, and I'll see if<BR>
I<BR>
>can tie a knot instead of hang myself with the rope you give me."<BR>
<BR>
	Good stuff. My apologies for missing your post. Hopefully I can manage to<BR>
jump in again midstream.<BR>
<BR>
	For those of you just tuning in: A short time ago there was a discussion on<BR>
the list concerning how homosexuality might be viewed in the Third Imperium,<BR>
especially among the nobility. Jason made the claim that since the<BR>
over-arching culture Imperium was basically something like, "20th century<BR>
westerners (or more specifically, yanks) in space", the reaction would be<BR>
the same as it would be today: it would be a scandal. I disagreed, and made<BR>
the claim that the over-arching culture of the Third Imperium would actually<BR>
be alien to modern Westerners in space.<BR>
<BR>
	On Jason's line, many things in the Imperium are strikingly similar. He<BR>
cited, for example, the Imperial Moot as being a representative body, like<BR>
those that tend to exist in Western democracies, and painted Imperial nobles<BR>
as being glorified senators, subject to cashiering by the people. He also<BR>
cited a number of similarities which have existed in many cultures, not just<BR>
those of the modern western democracies.<BR>
<BR>
	On my line, many things are vastly different between the west in the 20th<BR>
century and the Imperium. As a prime example, I don't believe that an<BR>
aristocracy is simply a representative democracy which has been "dressed up"<BR>
a bit. Tyrants and god-emperors are not the same as presidents and<BR>
governors.<BR>
<BR>
	For the most part, the discussion stuck with political theory, because I<BR>
was trying to impress upon Jason that western democracies require certain<BR>
fundamental philosophical underpinnings to be in place. One thing that I<BR>
used in support of my argument was the inability of a number of people on<BR>
the list to talk about aristocratic governments without translating them<BR>
into the post-Enlightenment liberal vocabulary.<BR>
<BR>
	So, as you may have guessed by the quote above, Jason pointed out a host of<BR>
similarities. However, I felt that a number of the things that he was<BR>
pointing out were merely necessary conditions for a culture to exist, not<BR>
sufficient conditions for Imperial culture to look like the western world in<BR>
the late 20th century. One similarity that I remember he pointed out was<BR>
that Imperial culture is dominated by humans, and the west in the 20th<BR>
century is also dominated by humans.<BR>
<BR>
	So, now here goes my account of the west in the 20th century, focusing<BR>
specifically on America:<BR>
<BR>
	There are a number of things that are distinctive about Western culture and<BR>
which can be said to set it apart from other cultures. There are certainly<BR>
things that we value, when viewed as a whole, that other cultures do not<BR>
value, and there are certain ways that we view things that other cultures<BR>
don't.<BR>
<BR>
	People have written at great length concerning the peculiar notion of<BR>
freedom that the West has. Various thinkers have tried to trace the roots of<BR>
this odd notion, especially since it cuts to the core of society. The notion<BR>
of freedom has three parts, and these individual parts, when combined with<BR>
other distinctive elements, create some pretty bizarre ideas that don't<BR>
generally appear in other cultures.<BR>
<BR>
	One part is the idea that individuals are vested with some degree of<BR>
individual freedom. For the most part, people in the West think that they<BR>
should be allowed to do what they want as long as they don't hurt anybody<BR>
else. There are some pecularities to this notion which I will touch upon in<BR>
a little bit. The second is sovereignal freedom, which is the notion that<BR>
one should have the right to impress upon others how they should live, to<BR>
tell others what they should do. These two notions are at odds with each<BR>
other, but that does give culture in the west a specific flavor. Still, I<BR>
should add that sovereignal freedom tends to be centered on groups. A<BR>
neighborhood should have certain rights with respect to how the neighborhood<BR>
should run (i.e., community standards), a city or state should have certain<BR>
rights, and countries themselves should have certain rights. Finally,<BR>
there's the notion of civic freedom, which is the belief that people should<BR>
have a right to participate in the process of government, that, in a very<BR>
real sense, the government and the governed are one in the same.<BR>
<BR>
	Those are very short characterizations, I know, but I suspect that they'll<BR>
do for our purposes. I should add that these notions tend to appear<BR>
strongest in America during the 18th and 19th centuries. Nowadays, certain<BR>
fundamental aspects are shared by most western democracies in the late 20th<BR>
century.<BR>
<BR>
	Another characteristic of late 20th century western culture, frequently<BR>
commented on, is the idea that everything can be classified and simplified,<BR>
and that, to some degree, scientific methods can be applied to any problem.<BR>
In America, technological progress is believed to be the ultimate problem<BR>
solver: no problem can exist that the application of the appropriate<BR>
technology can't solve.<BR>
<BR>
	As an example, ethical and moral considerations in the U.S. in late 20th<BR>
century public discourse seem to be simplified to nearly absurd levels. The<BR>
gun control debate, the abortion debate, the war/defense debate and so on.<BR>
<BR>
	The strong equation of romantic love and lust with other sorts of human<BR>
relationships dominates in the west in the late 20th century. I don't know<BR>
if I can stress this point strongly enough. This tends to devalue other<BR>
sorts of relationships. A strong sense of duty to one's mother, for example,<BR>
is not healthy and good, but a mental illness based in a sexual desire for<BR>
her... and so on.<BR>
<BR>
	Perhaps most importantly, there's the peculiar notion that, in some<BR>
fashion, these other elements are all part of "human nature". I'm not saying<BR>
that this notion is peculiar because I don't believe in it, but because it's<BR>
not something that many cultures have professed a belief in. We believe it's<BR>
natural to want personal freedom, and find it odd when the Chinese don't<BR>
flock to the notion of personal freedom. We believe it's natural to want<BR>
romantic love and the ability to choose our own partners, but get confused<BR>
when foreign immigrants arrange marriages for their children. We're even<BR>
more confused when we discover that these marriages last a long time and<BR>
don't end in divorce as frequently as when we choose our own, and so on.<BR>
<BR>
These are some of the things that I tend to think separates the over-arching<BR>
American culture from other cultures, both contemporary and ancient.<BR>
<BR>
Now, for one problematic issue:<BR>
<BR>
	The issue that private individuals can field their own armies and can sell<BR>
the use of these armies to various sides in conflicts inside and between the<BR>
semi-sovereign states that make up the Third Imperium is particularly<BR>
troublesome. How much differently would we have to think for the following<BR>
situation to be acceptable in late 20th century America?:<BR>
<BR>
	Today, Philadelphia, PA declared war on Harrisburg, PA over what Mayor<BR>
Street calls, "systematic attempts by the state leadership to deprive<BR>
Philadelphians of jobs." Governor Ridge was unavailable for comment. John<BR>
Street's ranks have been bolstered by mercenary units from as far away as<BR>
the United Kingdom and Turkey. Although the federal government reserves the<BR>
right to intervene, President Clinton said that he believes that such an<BR>
action "will not be necessary," and added that, "the situation will be<BR>
allowed to unfold as it will, the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania needs to blow<BR>
off some steam".<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 17:33:08 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: what is tech level?<BR>
<BR>
I've sort of been reading this thread.  You may find this<BR>
observation useful, or not.<BR>
<BR>
Within the game, tech level, along with the rest of the UPP, is<BR>
assigned to the world by the IISS during its Grand Surveys. <BR>
This is from Little Black Book #3, if I recall correctly.  (In<BR>
my Traveller universe at least, IISS also does Petit Surveys<BR>
within sectors and subsectors that update the occasional Grand<BR>
Surveys.)  Recall that one of the early published adventures<BR>
involved the local Scout office hiring the PCs to travel around<BR>
Regina Subsector (I think), auditing the assigned UPPs.<BR>
<BR>
The Scout Service must have a set of regulations that set forth<BR>
what the survey crews are to examine in determining tech level. <BR>
It's probably a fairly extensive list.  The gist of that set of<BR>
regulations is what we're arguing about on the TML.  I don't<BR>
recall what that gist is.  Highest level at which goods can be<BR>
produced?  Highest level at which most goods are produced? <BR>
Highest level of goods in use? that can be used at all? that can<BR>
be used effectively?  I suspect that all of these questions are<BR>
considered by the survey crews.<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.<BR>
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<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 15:02:09 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Grossly Expensive Products (was: Re: Filk explosion!...)<BR>
<BR>
On 4 Apr 00, at 23:46, Black ICE wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Jesse DeGraff wrote:<BR>
> > <BR>
> > Luckily, I have my Penguin-Stare-of-Death Return Bounceback Mirror(tm) <BR>
> > "We manufacture those by the way."<BR>
> > <BR>
> <<snip>><BR>
> > <BR>
> > Jesse<BR>
> > Blackmoore Heavy Industries, LIC<BR>
> > Makers of the Penguin-Stare-of-Death Return Bounceback Mirror(tm),<BR>
> > insanely fast starships, and other fine (and grossly expensive)<BR>
> > products.  Check your local retailers!  Stay tuned to the website for<BR>
> > details!<BR>
> <BR>
> When you can build a Type S variant that costs over MCr 627, then we can<BR>
> talk "grossly expensive."  Until then, you got _nothin'_ to show me. ;-)<BR>
<BR>
Huh. A TL15 40% flicker Black Globe costs MCr1000 and easily fits in a <BR>
100DT J2M2 hull. Add a few nice sensors and there ya go. BTW aside from <BR>
Black Globes the esiest way to jack the price of a vehicle is to equip <BR>
it with an ESA field generator, but that's probably cheating for a <BR>
scout ship. An assault shuttle, OTOH...<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
An pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 20:35:07 -0400<BR>
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net><BR>
Subject: RE: Notes on building Heya<BR>
<BR>
>	It is also possible that such synthfood might be more expensive (though<BR>
>	I will not try to argue the point).  Greenhouses, hydroponics, geneered<BR>
>	vat foods, and finally synthetic foods would be the mainstay of many<BR>
>	worlds that cannot grow their own.  If these approaches became cheaper<BR>
>	than farming, I presume that farming would be superceded unless some<BR>
>	other factors are in play (sustainability, for example).<BR>
<BR>
It's certainly possible that various forms of synthetic food might be more<BR>
expensive. There are certain advantages to something like single-celled<BR>
proteins. They would grow themselves and would simply need a clean<BR>
environment (which would involve robot workers, "clean suits", or something<BR>
similar). Arable land wouldn't be important, nor would complex<BR>
electro-mechanical hydroponics setups.<BR>
<BR>
As a side note, although hydroponics are generally considered to be in the<BR>
realm of domed cities and space stations, they could be very useful in<BR>
locations with contaminated soil and / or water. I live in inner city<BR>
Philadelphia, and there's a hydroponic farm right down the street. As it<BR>
turns out, they can't plant stuff in the ground because there used to be a<BR>
galvanizing plant on the site and all kinds of really unpleasant things have<BR>
leached into the soil.<BR>
<BR>
>	I would think that low-TL agricultural worlds that export food would<BR>
>	put a premium on getting produce from the fields to the high-TL<BR>
>	facilities at the starport as fast as possible, to avoid spoilage.<BR>
>	Livestock might be better for this, as they might even be transported<BR>
>	live.  One of the first imported technologies on a TL 4 Ag world might<BR>
>	be refridgerated train cars.<BR>
<BR>
Certainly, and although it doesn't seem to fit with your idea of how TLs<BR>
work, I can imagine Ling-Standard or General manufacturing rail cars which<BR>
use cryogenic technology. I can also imagine them producing fusion train<BR>
engines, but apparently that's a no-no. :)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 15:35:41 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: re: Supernova <BR>
<BR>
From: "Smith, Walter" <SmithW@hartwick.edu><BR>
<BR>
>...and then the star burps, puts out a funny glow for a few <BR>
>hours that wrecks all communication frequencies for a day or <BR>
>so, and settles down to complete stability. Even brilliant <BR>
>scientists are wrong sometimes...<BR>
<BR>
OH! That was good!  <BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.<BR>
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<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 23:50:10 -0800<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: TL of the Rule of Man (was Re: Notes on building Heya)<BR>
<BR>
Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net> wrote<BR>
<BR>
> Biotech in general happens to be a case where the TL system breaks down in a<BR>
> spectacular way. On one hand, it's because people don't view biological<BR>
> objects in the same way they view machines. Take a look at this thread, for<BR>
> example. Quite a few people have made the claim that a TL5 farm that uses<BR>
> TL8 seeds is a TL5 farm, but that a TL5 farm that uses TL8 machinery is a<BR>
> TL8 farm. It is entirely possible that the seeds increase the yields much<BR>
> more than the machinery.<BR>
<BR>
> This is understandable. My cocker spaniel is currently situated at my feet,<BR>
> and my manx is drinking water from her bowl. I've never thought of their<BR>
> tech levels before. :)<BR>
<BR>
The American Kennel Club slightly redefined the standards<BR>
for a purebred cocker spaniel in 1992. Therefore if your<BR>
spaniel is younger than 8 she meets the standards for US<BR>
TL as of 1992. Thus we see that your spaniel is TL 8 (or<BR>
TL 9 according to early CT standards). After all if a new<BR>
computer or car is at the current TL than so must a new<BR>
dog.<BR>
<BR>
The Cat Fanciers Association revised the specs on longhaired<BR>
versus short haired Manx cats in 1994. Therefore if your<BR>
Manx cat is 6 or less  and is a short haired product<BR>
of longhaired parents she is also TL 8. If this is not the<BR>
case then she is TL 5 as the standards for Manx's were written<BR>
in the 1920's.<BR>
<BR>
Using this same standard any world with Vargr or human minor<BR>
race slaves must be TL 25+ as that is the TL that the slaves<BR>
were designed at. Canon states that the Vilani, with their<BR>
rigid caste system and their repression of non Vilani races<BR>
treated many humans, Vilani and non Vilani alike, as little<BR>
better than slaves.<BR>
<BR>
Therefore we have conclusive proof that the Vilani Empire was<BR>
Tl 25+ and not TL 11 as has earlier been reported. Since<BR>
canon states that the Solomani won the Interstellar Wars due<BR>
in part to the fact that their technology was better than <BR>
that of the Vilani we now have _canonical_ proof that the Rule<BR>
of Man was TL 26+.	[ducks rapidly]<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 23:10:25 +0100<BR>
From: "Matthew Bond" <mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller Bibliography: Was District 268 Canon<BR>
<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
From: Derrick Jones <dojones.whitestar@btinternet.com><BR>
<BR>
>Hope this helps. It is definitely the best thing I've bought for Traveller<BR>
in a long while.<BR>
><BR>
>Derrick<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
What? Even better than ACQ?<BR>
<BR>
Penguins (Adelie) at 10 paces, sirrah! <g><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Matt<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2000 03:11:59 -0500<BR>
From: John Groth <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: Tech Levels: My Cr 0.02 Worth<BR>
<BR>
Off the top of my head, I can see several ways to calculate a given<BR>
world's TL:<BR>
<BR>
1.  The sustainable method.  Can the locals make or repair these items<BR>
here?  If so, the world is rated at the tech level of the items in<BR>
question.  Where there is a conflict (items of different tech levels are<BR>
observed), the survey team chooses either the preponderant tech level,<BR>
or the highest tech level, depending on the team leader's evaluation.<BR>
<BR>
2.  The "invented here" method.  This actually works well with worlds<BR>
that have not been contacted previously.  If the natives "invented"<BR>
items of a given tech level, then the world is rated at that tech<BR>
level.  The presumption here is that the natives have no access to<BR>
off-world tech (since they supposedly haven't been contacted yet). <BR>
Terra in the late 20th century falls under this category (Roswell<BR>
notwithstanding).<BR>
<BR>
3.  The "readily available" method.  Can an average person obtain it<BR>
here?  The tech level of the most advanced readily available goods<BR>
(either locally produced or imported) is the rating of the world.<BR>
<BR>
4.  The "principle" method.  Do the locals understand how this item<BR>
works?  If the locals know how things work, their world is rated at that<BR>
tech level, even if they choose not to make them.  A Terran example<BR>
would be gunpowder: The Chinese discovered it, yet did not put it into<BR>
firearms such as the Europeans later built.  The Chinese would still<BR>
understand how European firearms worked.<BR>
<BR>
5.  The "I'm in a hurry" method.  The scout team has little time to<BR>
spend surveying the world.  Therefore, the rated tech level is based on<BR>
the cursory observations of the survey team.  Accuracy is questionable<BR>
at best.<BR>
<BR>
6.  The "miscellaneous" method.  The survey team takes a wild guess, or<BR>
uses criteria not mentioned above.  (Someone suggested that a Pop 0, TL<BR>
2 world received that TL rating, becaouse the scout team found a tool<BR>
box in the shed next to the automated landing beacon at the Class E<BR>
starport.)<BR>
<BR>
Any or all of these methods may have been used in the generation of IISS<BR>
data on the various worlds of the 3I.  For a given world, choose<BR>
whichever one suits dramatic necessity. ;-)<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 20:10:39 +1200<BR>
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: Supernova (was re: stories in the printed copy ofNewScientist w hich relate toTraveller)<BR>
<BR>
> On Behalf Of SD Mooney<BR>
<BR>
> At 8:51 -0400 5/4/00, "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz> wrote:<BR>
> >I have only one thing to say :  "Inconstant Moon"<BR>
><BR>
> Shouldn't that be 'It's better to burn out than to fade away!' ;-)<BR>
<BR>
Now that sounds like something that should be filked to death !<BR>
<BR>
Hey Hey, My My (Into the Black)<BR>
<BR>
Hey hey, my my.<BR>
Our old sun is going to die !<BR>
There's more to those neutrinos<BR>
than meets the eye<BR>
Hey hey, my my.<BR>
<BR>
You're out of sun and into in the black<BR>
You looked for heat but the line is flat<BR>
Once it's gone, you can never go back<BR>
When you're out of sun<BR>
And left with the black<BR>
<BR>
The sun is gone but it's not forgotten<BR>
Whaddaya do when your bedrock's molten ?<BR>
It's better to burn out than to fade away<BR>
The sun is gone but it's not forgotten<BR>
<BR>
Hey hey, my my.<BR>
Our old sun is going to die !<BR>
There's more to those neutrinos<BR>
than meets the eye<BR>
Hey hey, my my.<BR>
<BR>
Of course, then there's "Monday Morning" by the Intergalactic Touring Band,<BR>
who also did "Space Commando".<BR>
<BR>
Frankie<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
 Dom<BR>
><BR>
> ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
> "We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
> can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
> http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 20:13:33 +1200<BR>
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: Traveller Bibliography: Was District 268 Canon<BR>
<BR>
> On Behalf Of Derrick Jones<BR>
><BR>
> (Better than Meinz Index to Glorantha IMHO - 'cos it's Traveller <BR>
> based). <BR>
<BR>
It's also better because the Meints Index is wrong in several respects.<BR>
(I have the materiels to prove it !)<BR>
<BR>
Frankie<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 22:06:18 -0700<BR>
From: Kristian Miller <travellerne@3rd-imperium.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Astronomy in the 57th Century<BR>
<BR>
"Smith, Walter" wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Fascinating idea about spinning lab ships to reduce power output, btw.<BR>
<BR>
I remember that some of the published lab ship deck plans and the RAFM<BR>
lab ship miniatures had the "down" direction of the decks facing<BR>
inward.  Of course you can't spin that ship; but, IMTU the decks are<BR>
flipped so you can.<BR>
<BR>
Also, the ring of the lab ship could be useful for arraying sensors for<BR>
a synthetic apperture array.<BR>
<BR>
Kristian<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 14:39:14 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Filk explosion! Dulinor went to Capital<BR>
<BR>
>From: Jesse DeGraff <jdegraff@pacbell.net><BR>
<BR>
>I'll be there of course.  Haven't missed a BayCon in at least 5<BR>
>years....I think :\  Memory's goin' to crap.<BR>
<BR>
As my uncle once commented, when you get old, you lose three<BR>
things.  First is your memory, and then, um, I've forgotten the<BR>
other two.<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.<BR>
http://im.yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2000 00:35:30 -1000<BR>
From: Lewis Roberts <lewis@mauigateway.net><BR>
Subject: Madoc Subsector Question<BR>
<BR>
Alvin,<BR>
<BR>
I have been readin the Madoc subsector write ups pretty closly and I like them,<BR>
except that I can only find one of the listed planets (Kelvin) on the map of the<BR>
subsector that came in the module Guilded Lily or in Galactic.  Did you not use<BR>
the names, or rename the planets?  <BR>
<BR>
Lewis Roberts<BR>
- -------------------------------------------------<BR>
Q:What do prisoners use to call each other?<BR>
A:Cell phones.<BR>
<BR>
lewis@mauigateway.net  <BR>
- -------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2000 00:35:32 -1000<BR>
From: Lewis Roberts <lewis@mauigateway.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Astronomy in the 57th Century<BR>
<BR>
Peter Newman wrote:<BR>
>I think that these observatories would be clustered in the<BR>
>frontier sectors because they are closer to the phenomena<BR>
>being observed. Anything you can observe by telescope from <BR>
>Capital could have been observed centuries before at the<BR>
>frontiers. As a usefully _approximation_ light will travel<BR>
>through one sector per century (104 years) sideways, one <BR>
>sector per 130 years vertically, and one sector every 165<BR>
>years diagonally.<BR>
<BR>
What's a few hundred years when the light has been travelling several billion<BR>
years.  Light from the galactic core will still be over 25,000 years old. <BR>
<BR>
This does raise another issue.  If a one time event occured in Imperial space,<BR>
you can observe it once and then jump to another spot slightly farther away and<BR>
see it again. Of course the closer you are the better, but this way you could<BR>
observe something, make an hypothesis and then go look at it again to check your<BR>
hypothesis.   <BR>
<BR>
 <BR>
Lewis Roberts<BR>
- -------------------------------------------------<BR>
Q:What do prisoners use to call each other?<BR>
A:Cell phones.<BR>
<BR>
lewis@mauigateway.net  <BR>
- -------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 07:48:27 -0600 (CST)<BR>
From: "Jason Kemp" <Jason.Kemp@tdh.state.tx.us><BR>
Subject: RE: Query re: _First In_<BR>
<BR>
From: Jesse DeGraff <jdegraff@pacbell.net><BR>
<BR>
> Guilty as charged.  BTW, there's no "e" at the end of my last name.  You<BR>
> should know that Jason ;)<BR>
<BR>
You're right, I should have. My apologies. I think I got carried away <BR>
on the keyboard. Yesterday was one of those days.<BR>
<BR>
Your Friend,<BR>
Jason<BR>
<BR>
=============================<BR>
Jason Kemp, ADS Programmer IV<BR>
(512)458-7111 ext. 1+3375<BR>
Internet Address:  jason.kemp@tdh.state.tx.us<BR>
<BR>
Most computer virus and email alerts are hoaxes.  For more info, check out:<BR>
http://urbanlegends.miningco.com/culture/beliefs/urbanlegends/library/blhoax.htm<BR>
==============================<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 08:57:02 -0400 <BR>
From: "Smith, Walter" <SmithW@hartwick.edu><BR>
Subject: New Madrid Fault (Ancestors Journal)<BR>
<BR>
Jimmy Simpson wrote:<BR>
><Great journal entry from an ancestor about the quakes of the early<BR>
19th c.)><BR>
<BR>
Nasty. Where are there falls on the Ohio? I'm not very familiar with<BR>
that river. <BR>
<BR>
Jimmy again:<BR>
>"... you may all go to hell <BR>
>and I will go to Texas." <BR>
>                      -David Crockett <BR>
<BR>
"If I owned Hell and Texas, I'd live in Hell and rent out Texas."<BR>
                       - Sam Houston<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 20:46:53 +1000<BR>
From: "Katharine Whitchurch" <katts@globalfreeway.com.au><BR>
Subject: Desperatly Seeking Gearhead<BR>
<BR>
I was wandering around the web, and ran into this *excellent* page.<BR>
<BR>
http://home.att.net/~hensley.cr/Traveller/vehicles.html <BR>
<BR>
Would C R Hensley be around, or would anyone have an email for them ?<BR>
<BR>
Ian Whitchurch<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 15:15:21 +0200<BR>
From: Jens Rydholm <jenry023@student.liu.se><BR>
Subject: FF&S2: Universal grapples question<BR>
<BR>
Can universal grapples carry more than one craft at once, as long as the<BR>
combined craft sizes are less than the maximum size of the grapples?<BR>
<BR>
+--------------------------------------+---------------------------------------+<BR>
|                                      |                                       |<BR>
| Name: Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm       | By receiving this message, you do NOT |<BR>
| Mail: jenry023@student.liu.se        | receive the right to use my address   |<BR>
| Home: http://m227.ryd.student.liu.se | for advertisement purposes. Doing so  |<BR>
| ICQ#: 3844745                        | will be punished by public flogging.  |<BR>
|                                      |                                       |<BR>
+--------------------------------------+---------------------------------------+<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 09:46:55 -0400<BR>
From: "Steven E. Ehrbar" <ehrbar@SoftHome.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Tech Levels: My Cr 0.02 Worth<BR>
<BR>
From: "John Groth" <wombat@premier.net><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> Off the top of my head, I can see several ways to calculate a given<BR>
> world's TL:<BR>
><BR>
> 1.  The sustainable method.<BR>
> 3.  The "readily available" method.<BR>
<BR>
I use a blend of these -- call it the Economic method.  That is, the TL is<BR>
what is generally readily available, generally affordable, and generally<BR>
used.<BR>
<BR>
For example, an African tribe that gets free radios would not be the TL of<BR>
the radios.  They can't afford the devices, and if the radios stop working<BR>
they'll need somebody to donate parts or new ones.<BR>
<BR>
OTOH, New York City is fully modern-U.S. TL, even though it can't produce<BR>
its own computer chips, televisions, autos, or gasoline.  You can get those<BR>
things in New York, New Yorkers can afford those things, and New Yorkers use<BR>
those things.<BR>
<BR>
Finally, a tribe of African elephant hunters that uses its profits to buy<BR>
modern rifles and radios but otherwise functions at TL0 is TL0.  While they<BR>
have a handful of high-tech devices, TL>0 devices are not generally readily<BR>
avilable, generally affordable, or generally used.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2258<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2259</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
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Traveller-digest      Thursday, April 6 2000      Volume 1999 : Number 2259<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
RE: Notes on building Heya<BR>
Re: SPI's "Outreach," and the Zho Core Missions<BR>
RE: what is tech level?<BR>
Re: New Madrid, etc.<BR>
Re: New Madrid Fault (Ancestors Journal)<BR>
Gencon UK<BR>
Re: Supernova (was re: stories in the printed copy of New Scientist w hich relate toTraveller)<BR>
Re: Supernova (was re: stories in the printed copy of New Scientist which relate toTraveller)<BR>
Re: Astronomy in the 57th Century<BR>
Re: Supernova (was re: stories in the printed copy of New Scientist w hich relate toTraveller)<BR>
Re: Astronomy in the 57th Century<BR>
Re: 10 foot ceilings (was re: Life support)<BR>
Re: Supernova (was re: stories in the printed copy of New Scientist which relate toTraveller)<BR>
RE: Supernova <BR>
RE: (was) Notes on building Heya (long)<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 17:50:05 -0400<BR>
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net><BR>
Subject: RE: Notes on building Heya<BR>
<BR>
Ian Ferguson wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>	You may wish to define equipment that way, but a TL 6 farm using TL 2<BR>
>	seeds is still a TL 6 farm (or so I would argue).<BR>
<BR>
	Actually, I don't wish to define equipment that way. That's simply what it<BR>
means in the English language.<BR>
<BR>
>	Perhaps using TL 9 pesticides qualifies the farm as TL 9, but I think<BR>
>	that we're arguing about angels and pins here.<BR>
<BR>
	I don't think so. Since the whole discussion started concerning what tech<BR>
level the farms of Heya actually could be with a listed TL of 5, the<BR>
implications of this discussion are palpable and useful.<BR>
<BR>
>	IMTU, TL 5 worlds do not use<BR>
>	substantial amounts of TL 6+ machinery (tractors, buildings, etc.),<BR>
>	but some may use pesticides, fertilizers, and seeds produced at<BR>
>	higher TLs.<BR>
<BR>
So, then, in the case of agriculture, TL says very little concerning what an<BR>
agricultural world's output may be. I don't have a problem with that,<BR>
personally, but then you should be careful when figuring out the economic<BR>
relationships between worlds. Hans has rightly pointed out that TL is at the<BR>
center of economic calculations.<BR>
<BR>
>	Perhaps I was not very clear, but that isn't exactly what I was trying<BR>
>	to say.  I meant to say that:<BR>
>		A) a lot of stuff built at higher TLs is for game purposes no<BR>
>		different than similar items produced at low TLs.<BR>
<BR>
	There's a lot of stuff that actually has little or no relevance, for the<BR>
purpose of interaction between the GM and the players. This happens to be<BR>
one of those things. However, it is of vital importance to GMs and other<BR>
folks who may be inclined to want to translate the UWP into something<BR>
resembling a living, breathing planet.<BR>
<BR>
>		B) low TL worlds do not import large amounts of high-tech<BR>
>		stuff, i.e. a TL 5 world does not import thousands of air/rafts.<BR>
>		It is possible, however, for a high TL world to "build-down"<BR>
>		for a low TL world.<BR>
<BR>
	I'm still not clear on why this is, exactly.<BR>
<BR>
>	I freely admit to not having thought this right through, so you may find<BR>
>	it unrealistic.  It is merely part of my rational for not finding too<BR>
>	much TL 9 stuff on TL 5 worlds.  YMMV.<BR>
<BR>
	Fair enough. I actually do find it unrealistic, and it simply sounds like<BR>
an attempt to put a patch over something without dealing with it directly.<BR>
<BR>
>	It's what I do to, and this list is also for *advice* about Traveller.<BR>
>	:)<BR>
<BR>
	Advice and discussion exist side by side. :)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 08:51:31 EDT<BR>
From: JFZeigler@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: SPI's "Outreach," and the Zho Core Missions<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 4/6/00 3:18:07 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Damage169@cs.com <BR>
writes:<BR>
<BR>
> Might one be able to simulate the Zhodani Core missions (at least their <BR>
basic <BR>
>  route) with this game? Is the map set up for clusters of stars or <BR>
'important'<BR>
>  individual stars?<BR>
<BR>
Not particularly.  Every hex on the map contains millions of individual<BR>
stars.  Certain "beacon stars" are placed on the map (mostly O-class<BR>
stars and supergiants, such as are visible for thousands of light-years<BR>
in all directions) but they only affect movement.<BR>
<BR>
Actually, even the shape of the Galaxy on the Outreach map isn't<BR>
very accurate, since we've learned quite a bit over the last twenty<BR>
years.  Of course, the state of knowledge that gave rise to the Outreach<BR>
map is about the same as that which gave rise to the original Charted<BR>
Space map. . .<BR>
<BR>
- ----------<BR>
Jon F. Zeigler: Mathematician, computer geek, amateur historian, freelance<BR>
writer, occasional scribbler of bad poetry<BR>
"For any statement, no matter how innocuous, there exists a nonempty<BR>
set of people who will take offense at it."<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 14:53:36 +0100 <BR>
From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com><BR>
Subject: RE: what is tech level?<BR>
<BR>
Glenn Goffin wrote:<BR>
> The Scout Service must have a set of regulations that set forth<BR>
> what the survey crews are to examine in determining tech level. <BR>
> It's probably a fairly extensive list.  The gist of that set of<BR>
> regulations is what we're arguing about on the TML.  I don't<BR>
> recall what that gist is.  Highest level at which goods can be<BR>
> produced?  Highest level at which most goods are produced? <BR>
> Highest level of goods in use? that can be used at all? that can<BR>
> be used effectively?  I suspect that all of these questions are<BR>
> considered by the survey crews.<BR>
<BR>
You should check out  DGP's  Grand Survey/Grand Census  or  World<BR>
Builder's Handbook.  It expands TL out into a seperate TL profile<BR>
as follows: AB-CDEFG-HIJK-LM-N where<BR>
<BR>
    A = High common<BR>
    B = Low common<BR>
    C = Quality of Life - Energy<BR>
    D = Quality of Life - Computers/Robotics<BR>
    E = Quality of Life - Communications<BR>
    F = Quality of Life - Medical<BR>
    G = Quality of Life - Environment<BR>
    H = Transportation - Land<BR>
    I = Transportation - Water<BR>
    J = Transportation - Air<BR>
    K = Transportation - Space<BR>
    L = Military - Personal<BR>
    M = Military - Heavy<BR>
    N = Novelty<BR>
<BR>
The TL factor in the main UPP is the "High Common".  Where one of<BR>
the other TL factors is higher  than  High  Common  it  indicates<BR>
cutting edge technology not yet in full production.<BR>
<BR>
It also states  that  the  starport  and  Naval  base  (etc)  are<BR>
excluded from a world's UPP.  Starports have minimum TL (by type)<BR>
which may be higher than local TL ... which explains  a  class  A<BR>
starport on a TL 5 world.<BR>
<BR>
So to summarise: the closest answer you gave to "what is TL" is<BR>
    "Highest level at which most goods are produced"<BR>
<BR>
Regards PLST<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 00:38:16 EDT<BR>
From: Damage169@cs.com<BR>
Subject: Re: New Madrid, etc.<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 4/3/00 3:08:44 PM Central Daylight Time, <BR>
owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
> Also, the rock in the east transmit shock waves more efficiently,<BR>
>  that means that damage due to an earthquake is more widespread.<BR>
>  (I had heard the the last on had rung church bells in Boston,<BR>
>  not Pitt.,  but I don't remember my source and it could<BR>
>  have been inaccurate).<BR>
>  __<BR>
<BR>
If it rang bells in Boston, it rang them in Pittsburgh. The Pitt is closer.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 04:32:11 -0700<BR>
From: "Jesse LaBranche" <Vanquer@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re: New Madrid Fault (Ancestors Journal)<BR>
<BR>
> I dug out a copy of a journal that one of my ancestors (George Heinrich<BR>
> Crist) kept while living in Nelson County, Kentucky during the<BR>
> earthquake.  Here are entries from the journal describing the earthquakes<BR>
> of Dec 16, Jan 23 and Feb 7:<BR>
<BR>
<snipped><BR>
<BR>
> Jimmy Simpson nimrodd@fastlane.net<BR>
<BR>
    Those entries as well as several others can be found on a website<BR>
by searching Yahoo for the "New Madrid Fault" and checking out the<BR>
ongoing research project there.<BR>
    They are fore-casting another quake of 8+ at 90% probability by<BR>
the year 2040.<BR>
<BR>
Later.<BR>
<BR>
Jesse.<BR>
vanquer@email.msn.com<BR>
ICQ. 8004143<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 14:31:52 +0100 <BR>
From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com><BR>
Subject: Gencon UK<BR>
<BR>
Just spotted on the web ...<BR>
<BR>
Gencon UK will *not* be at Loughborogh this year!  Instead it  is<BR>
now going to be held in the  Manchester  Convention  Center.  The<BR>
reasons are at<BR>
<BR>
http://rpga.ukonline.co.uk/genconuk00/why_move.htm<BR>
<BR>
I am passing no comment about this.<BR>
<BR>
Regards PLST<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 05:45:23 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Supernova (was re: stories in the printed copy of New Scientist w hich relate toTraveller)<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Or how about a recently-aired episode of "The Outer Limits"...a physicist<BR>
> realizes the Sun will go Nova and wipe out everything on Earth. He decides<BR>
> to spend the last few hours of Life with a girl he could never approach.<BR>
><BR>
> ONLY that the Nova turned out to be a great big flare.....<BR>
<BR>
Sounds like a rip-off of Niven's "Inconstant Moon". <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 05:46:13 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Supernova (was re: stories in the printed copy of New Scientist which relate toTraveller)<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>> Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
>> >So by the time you detect the neutrino pulse, it's too late.<BR>
>> > A short moment of silence, as everybody digests the meaning of<BR>
>> <snip><BR>
>> >No, everyone falls into a coma from the intense radiation dosage.<BR>
>> ><BR>
>> >Anybody far enough out to "only" get a lethal dose will quickly learn<BR>
>> >that they have only a few weeks to live.<BR>
>> ><BR>
>> >I can't think of any "precursor" that occurs enough before the neutrino<BR>
>> >flash.<BR>
><BR>
> Wait a moment here. Are we talking about the same neutrinos? The<BR>
> essentially (albeit not quite) massless particles that have almost zero<BR>
> chance of ever interacting with ANY normal matter (such that the<BR>
> neutrino flux from the sun is essentially identical on both sides of the<BR>
> world- no measureable number of neutrinos are absorbed by travelling<BR>
> through the earth).<BR>
<BR>
Yep. <BR>
<BR>
> How much damage could they cause? Also, what are we<BR>
> looking at in the way of a neutrino pulse? How intense? At this point,<BR>
> we have a hard enough time DETECTING neutrinos, so I'm wondering how we<BR>
> could possibly know what they would cause in the way of radiation damage.<BR>
<BR>
Any *individual* neutrino has a very *very* small chance of interacting<BR>
with an atom (the usual example is something about light years of lead...)<BR>
<BR>
The detectors we currently have work be detecting the transmuation of<BR>
elements due to atoms having aborbed a neutrino (changes a neutron into<BR>
a proton or vice versa, along with emitting/absorbing an electron or<BR>
positron to keep the charge balance correct).<BR>
<BR>
So when a neutrino *is* absorbed, it can change an atom into a<BR>
different element, as well as disrupted the chemical bonds in is<BR>
involved in. That bond disruption is how *all* radiation damage works.<BR>
<BR>
With a supernova, look at it this way. At something like 50,000 parsecs<BR>
we detected 4 neutrinos in a set of detectors that had a total cross<BR>
sectional area of a square kilometer (I'm being *very* generous<BR>
regarding that area!). <BR>
<BR>
A parsec is a bit over 200,000 AU. So the distance was around<BR>
10,000,000,000 AUs. Neutrino flux obeys the inverse square law. Which<BR>
means that at 1 AU from the supernova, our detectors would have<BR>
registered 400,000,000,000,000,000,000 (400e18 or 4e20) neutrinos per<BR>
sq km.<BR>
<BR>
Traveller detectors would detect *billions* of times as many. Which, as<BR>
I noted, would be equivalent to turning a gigawatt laser or PAW on<BR>
them. Consider 1 GW divided by 4e20 means that the neutrinos *only*<BR>
have to deposit 2.5e12 watts each (2.5 *picowatts*). I'm pretty sure<BR>
they are more energetic than that..<BR>
<BR>
A human body has around 1 m^2 of crossectional area. That's 1<BR>
*millionth* of a km^2. So a human body would have *merely* 4e14<BR>
neutrinos *interact* with it. A lethal dose of radiation is something<BR>
like 600 rads. Trust me, that's a *lot* more than 600 rads.<BR>
<BR>
At 5 AU, the dose is 1/25th as much. <BR>
<BR>
Anyway, professional scientists made the "5 AU = lethal dose of<BR>
neutrinos" back in 89. It's really true. <BR>
<BR>
You have to realize that the core of the sun is only converting a very<BR>
few protons to neutrons at any given moment. Maybe a few kilos worth.<BR>
But when a star undergoes the core collapse that is the first stage of<BR>
a supernova, the *entire core* gets converted to neutrons. That's many<BR>
times the mass of earth. <BR>
<BR>
It's because there is that incredible flux of neutrinos that the<BR>
"insignificant" percentage that interact with normal matter becomes<BR>
lethal. <BR>
<BR>
One penny is an isignificant amount of money. But get one penny from<BR>
everyone on Earth and you have 60 million dollars. <BR>
<BR>
Likewise, if one neutrino in a trillion interacts with matter, if you<BR>
have 10^30 (1e30) of them, that suddenly becomes 1e18...<BR>
<BR>
When dealing with supernovas, get used to mind numbing numbers. :-)<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 06:26:12 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Astronomy in the 57th Century<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> The telescopes themselves will be giant fragile instruments, that<BR>
> never could survive in a gravitational field.  Many will be linked in<BR>
> long base line interferometric arrays, which is pretty much what your<BR>
> standard PEMS is, but on a much bigger scale; probably 10s or 100s of<BR>
> millions of kilometers across.<BR>
<BR>
The Imperial Star Survey will be just barely considered "astronomy". <BR>
<BR>
But as I figure it, they'll set up several *big* space telescopes (at<BR>
least 4) a parsec apart. For a 4 scope "array", they'd be at the apexes<BR>
of a tetrahedron a parsec on a side. <BR>
<BR>
While there's no way to use them as a synthetic aperture array, you<BR>
*can* use them as a *very* long baseline for determining stellar<BR>
positions. <BR>
<BR>
I figure they'd set up laser links between them. Each link would send a<BR>
local time signal derived from a set of atomic clocks (or whatever they<BR>
may have that's better). Once they receive the signal from another<BR>
observatory, they add in a fixed delay (so the delay for "turnaround<BR>
can be factored out) "echo" of the other staions time signal.<BR>
<BR>
This lets them determine the length of the base line very acurately<BR>
(once the 6.52 year trip is completed), and by comparing star positions<BR>
in shots from each observatory along with the local and 3 non-local<BR>
time hacks, you should be able to determine stellar positions inside<BR>
the galaxy *very* accurately. <BR>
<BR>
Likewise, positions of "local group" galaxies should get a lot more<BR>
accurate. <BR>
<BR>
Because of this star maps are more than accurate enough for jump<BR>
calculations for *long* distances outside the Imperium.<BR>
<BR>
ps. If you can't find gamers at the observatories, see what other<BR>
astronomers think of my "parsec baseline survey" idea... :-)<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 05:35:29 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Supernova (was re: stories in the printed copy of New Scientist w hich relate toTraveller)<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
>>So by the time you detect the neutrino pulse, it's too late. <BR>
>> A short moment of silence, as everybody digests the meaning of <BR>
> <snip><BR>
>>No, everyone falls into a coma from the intense radiation dosage. <BR>
>><BR>
>>Anybody far enough out to "only" get a lethal dose will quickly learn <BR>
>>that they have only a few weeks to live. <BR>
>><BR>
>>I can't think of any "precursor" that occurs enough before the neutrino <BR>
>>flash. <BR>
><BR>
> Good. That means we have to make up one - a gravitic anomaly, a meson<BR>
> "pop", even a strange reading on the residual energy in a jump capacitor<BR>
> on a ship entering the system - or arriving from it.<BR>
><BR>
> Now have *one* scientist know about it - he's been studying the<BR>
> phenomena, and has hit upon a theory about supernova warning signals.<BR>
> The local star just started giving off this warning signal, and the<BR>
> intensity is escalating. <BR>
><BR>
> In the best disaster movie tradition, no one believes him. Not until<BR>
> something involving the player characters happens.<BR>
<BR>
Gee, he wouldn't happen to be named "Jor-El" would he? :-)<BR>
<BR>
> ...and then the star burps, puts out a funny glow for a few hours<BR>
> that wrecks all communication frequencies for a day or so, and<BR>
> settles down to complete stability. Even brilliant scientists are<BR>
> wrong sometimes...<BR>
<BR>
Just a note for anyone wanting to try this. Pre-supernova stars are red<BR>
giants[1]. Bruce may be able to give the required size code for a type M<BR>
star to be a potential supernova.<BR>
<BR>
BTW, when stars reach the red giant stage, they expand a *lot*. This<BR>
makes any planet that *had* life too hot, and eventually engulfs it in<BR>
the star. The red giant stage only lasts a few million years (if that)<BR>
and thus life doesn't have time to evolve on the now warmer outer<BR>
planets. *Especially* since the temp keeps climbing right up until the<BR>
star goes supernova (or starts collapsing into a white dwarf or just a<BR>
dead star). <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
[1]. Well, they can also be a white dwarf in a peculiar sort of binary<BR>
system. But *nobody* is going to be comfortable in one of those,<BR>
because the mass transfer (which will be quite visible!) as the dwarf<BR>
strips mass from the non dwarf companion is going to eventually result<BR>
in at least a nova, if not a supernova. Novas tend to be *recuurent*.<BR>
So examination of the (lifeless) planets would have pretty obvious<BR>
traces if the star was a recurrent nova. <BR>
<BR>
Oh yeah, since you get a white dwarf by having a star go supernova, the<BR>
planets are gonna be in lousy shape anyway... but maybe the remnats<BR>
have valuable minerals. :-)<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 06:40:00 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Astronomy in the 57th Century<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Lewis Roberts <lewis@mauigateway.net> wrote<BR>
><BR>
>> I am back on the TML after a three year absence. <BR>
><BR>
> Welcome back.<BR>
><BR>
>> The biggest problem with the neutrino telescope is figuring <BR>
>> out how to shield it from the fusion power planet powering <BR>
>> the observatory.  The observatory will be too far from any <BR>
>> star for solar power to work.  The astronomers will know where<BR>
>> the fusion power plant is and will be able to remove it from the image. <BR>
><BR>
> Can we run the whole observatory on batteries by any<BR>
> chance? Since artificial gravity & G-Comp use way more<BR>
> power than life support our astronomy lab probably won't<BR>
> use them as they would increase power needs & shorten operational<BR>
> duration. This may help explain why the lab ship is<BR>
> torus shaped since spin gravity wont require the power<BR>
> grav plates do.<BR>
><BR>
> We could take a subsidized merchant & fill its whole cargo<BR>
> hold full of batteries. Then we run the whole observatory<BR>
> (and the subbie itself) off of the batteries. When it runs dry<BR>
> we switch to the next subbie. We simply have new "battery ships"<BR>
> jump in at appropriate intervals.<BR>
><BR>
> Alternatively we could run the station off of batteries<BR>
> and periodically recharge them by turning on the stations<BR>
> fusion plant once a month or so but I suspect that this<BR>
> would interfere with long term observations.<BR>
<BR>
Use fuel cells. Just ship out "tankers" loaded with LOX and LH2. The<BR>
unneeded water can be shipped back. <BR>
<BR>
> I think that these observatories would be clustered in the<BR>
> frontier sectors because they are closer to the phenomena<BR>
> being observed. Anything you can observe by telescope from <BR>
> Capital could have been observed centuries before at the<BR>
> frontiers. As a usefully _approximation_ light will travel<BR>
> through one sector per century (104 years) sideways, one <BR>
> sector per 130 years vertically, and one sector every 165<BR>
> years diagonally.<BR>
<BR>
Sure, but you'll want observatories scattered throughout the Imperium<BR>
because that way you can get several *centuries* of observatyions of<BR>
the same star, thanks to light lag. <BR>
<BR>
On the other hand, the frontiers aren't all *that* much closer to many<BR>
interesting phenomena. We're talking a distance difference of less than<BR>
1% for most of the galaxy. <BR>
<BR>
Ok, the galaxy is rough 30,000 parsecs in diameter. Or, as a flat disk,<BR>
it has an area of roughly 700 million "square parsecs". Call it 700<BR>
million hexes.<BR>
<BR>
A sector is 32x40 parsecs. Which gives us about 550,000 sectors. Let's<BR>
be generous and say that "known space" is 55 sectors. So we know all of<BR>
1/10,000 of the galaxy...<BR>
<BR>
To put it another way, at 1 cm to the parsec, the galaxy is 300 meters<BR>
across. Or about 1000 feet. And known space fits *easily* on a tabletop.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 06:54:41 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: 10 foot ceilings (was re: Life support)<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> At 05:44 AM 4/5/2000 PST, you wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>>Then there was the French Curve I used for so sections... :-)<BR>
><BR>
> AP - Medford, Ore.  Local Dungeonmaster Leonard Erickson was found dead<BR>
> today, evidently killed by one of his on players.  Leonard was found with a<BR>
> protractor enbedded in his back.  His suspected killer was heard screaming<BR>
> "right angles!  What in the (deleted) is wrong with right angles?" as he<BR>
> was led away.<BR>
<BR>
I live in Portland. :-)<BR>
<BR>
And I had one section that was nice straight lines... A section of<BR>
triangular rooms, about 10 rooms on a side. <BR>
<BR>
Seriously, I mostly used right angles and "normal" sizes for stuff.<BR>
That way the "special" stuff was more fun.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 06:10:08 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Supernova (was re: stories in the printed copy of New Scientist which relate toTraveller)<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>         Well, here's one you can hit people with: when a star explodes, its<BR>
> diameter changes (obviously). This throws the jump limit into flux for<BR>
> awhile (years even?). Of course, from the jump limit (maybe even<BR>
> light-hours out), you may not know this (lightspeed and such). Thus, you<BR>
> could end up INSIDE the 100d jump limit without realizing it.<BR>
<BR>
Well, jumping inside the 100d limit, but outside the 10d limit is<BR>
merely risky. Also, some of us use *mass* based jump limits (the math<BR>
actually works out to match point at which *tidal forces* hit a certain<BR>
intensity, which kinda makes sense)<BR>
<BR>
> Alternately, you could jump into a system that went supernova BEFORE you<BR>
> left, but the light just hasn't had enough time to reach you yet....<BR>
<BR>
Here's one for a *mean* ref. <BR>
<BR>
The PC's ship receives an urgent message *just* before they enter jump.<BR>
As in it's received, but there's no time to *do* anything before<BR>
entering jump. <BR>
<BR>
The message was from STC (Space Traffic Control) informing them that a<BR>
ship has just jumped in claiming the star they are jumping to has gone<BR>
supernova... <BR>
<BR>
There are numerous possibilities. <BR>
<BR>
1. The star *did* go supernova. The PCs arrive, their ship is fried by<BR>
   the radiation (and so are they). Roll up new characters.<BR>
2. The ship drops out of jump early due to a gravity pulse from the<BR>
   Supernova. They may still fry. But they may have a chance (note,<BR>
   they'd have to be *at least* two light *weeks* out to not run into<BR>
   the wavefront of the blast, which "only" travels about 70-90% of c)<BR>
3. They misjump and wind up somewhere else. Later they learn that the<BR>
   star did go off, and they are the only ship that tried a jump there<BR>
   in the week between the supernova and escaping ships carrying word<BR>
   to have survived. Assuming they didn't get stranded by the misjump,<BR>
   expect them to go on a *long* drinking binge to celebrate their<BR>
   narrow escape. And swear off gambling forever... :-)<BR>
4. The crew of the ship making the report is crazy (maybe a problem<BR>
   with life support). After a *very* nerve-wracking week in jump, they<BR>
   arrive safely at the target system.<BR>
<BR>
I'm sure others can add a few variations. But *none* of these are<BR>
"nice" things to do to players.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 15:18:34 +0100 <BR>
From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Supernova <BR>
<BR>
Walter Smith wrote:<BR>
> ...and then the star burps, puts out a funny glow for a few <BR>
> hours that wrecks all communication frequencies for a day or <BR>
> so, and settles down to complete stability. Even brilliant <BR>
> scientists are wrong sometimes...<BR>
<BR>
Reminds me of the last episode of Moonbase 3 - "View  Of  A  Dead<BR>
Planet" (1973).<BR>
<BR>
    A scientist living on a moon  base  (not  self-sufficient  of<BR>
    Earth) convinces everyone that  an  experiment  about  to  be<BR>
    carried out in Earth orbit will destroy the  atmosphere.  The<BR>
    scientist in question was the originator  of  the  experiment<BR>
    who was kicked off the project for his predictions  of  doom.<BR>
    No one on the moon base believe him either until the time  of<BR>
    the experiment and the Earth becomes obscured by a mysterious<BR>
    cloud and all communication is lost.  After the hysterics the<BR>
    inhabitants of the base, realising that  they  can't  survive<BR>
    indefinately, decide to<BR>
<BR>
    a) Record all their knowledge (cultural and  scientific)  for<BR>
       posterity (possible discovery by aliens),<BR>
    b) Have one last party<BR>
    c) After the party switch off the  base  life-support  rather<BR>
       than wait until their supplies run out.<BR>
<BR>
    Unknown to them to Earth is fine beneth the cloud and  as  it<BR>
    dissipates communications are restored just in time.  It ends<BR>
    with the scientist saying something about it being  okay  for<BR>
    individuals (like himself)  to  make  mistakes  (we  are  all<BR>
    human) but collectively as a race we can't afford to.<BR>
<BR>
Regards PLST<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2000 10:21:47 -0400<BR>
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca><BR>
Subject: RE: (was) Notes on building Heya (long)<BR>
<BR>
Chris Seamans writes:<BR>
>>Fair questions.  Is a farm that uses TL 6 tractors and TL 1 seed TL 6<BR>
>>or TL 1?  My own take is that if the PCs land their starship in a<BR>
>>cultivated field on a TL 6 world, they can expect to see TL 6 tractors<BR>
>>and plants growing.  If they really want to know where the seed or the<BR>
>>tractor came from, I might allow imports from the nearest Industrial<BR>
>>world.<BR>
>Okay, so on your line, tech levels are purely cosmetic. TL is simply<BR>
>indicative of what kind of big machines the characters might see when they<BR>
>land, not what they can buy there.<BR>
<BR>
	Cosmetic?  If the farmers are using it, they must have purchased it<BR>
	somewhere.  Presumably they can perform day-to-day maintenance.  If<BR>
	the tractors use petroleum fuel, they must be able to buy that.  In<BR>
	general, what level of technology the characters see in use on a<BR>
	world is what they may find available for purchase.<BR>
<BR>
>>This fits in fine with my definition.<BR>
>Indeed, it does seem to, at least to some extent. I'm not interested solely<BR>
>in what the characters see, but what they can buy there, what they can sell,<BR>
>and what the planet "feels like". It's a general indicator for me, not the<BR>
>TL of the big machines the characters might come across.<BR>
<BR>
	I agree.<BR>
<BR>
>>>It is mentioned that this represents the sorts of things that the<BR>
>>>planet can produce locally.<BR>
>>This part is a little tricky, because there are lots of worlds with<BR>
>>low Pop and high TL that would have trouble producing all of their<BR>
>>own stuff.<BR>
>Which is why I said that official definitions tend to "muddy the waters".<BR>
>:)<BR>
<BR>
	Yup.  I avoid them where convenient.<BR>
	:)<BR>
<BR>
>>>MegaTraveller muddied the waters a bit by saying that the Tech Level of<BR>
>>>the planet represented the tech level of the starport and surrounding<BR>
>>>area, but other areas on the planet may have a lower tech level.<BR>
>>I would allow some flexibility here, but as a general rule I tend to<BR>
>>treat a worlds TL as generally consistent (for simplicity).<BR>
>Fair enough. That would make sense if TL indicates only those things that<BR>
>the characters may actually see.<BR>
<BR>
	It makes sense (for me) even when the TL indicates those things that<BR>
	are available for purchase, as well as those things for which there<BR>
	is likely to be a demand.<BR>
<BR>
>>I think that my point has been lost in the shuffle.  I agree that it<BR>
>>is very easy to defend TL disparity in game terms, I was only suggesting<BR>
>>that it is difficult to defend the disparity in terms of "hard" SF (IMHO).<BR>
>>I have no problem with the disparity IMTU, and rarely give it any thought<BR>
>>at all.  I only brought it up in response to earlier comments in the<BR>
>>thread.<BR>
>It's also very easy to defend the disparity "realistically".<BR>
<snipped><BR>
<BR>
	Perhaps so, but it is likely that both sides of the arguement can<BR>
	be made.  I don't have the knowledge (or the time :( ) to get into<BR>
	that right now.<BR>
<BR>
>>>Going with the former means that you have to deal with, and define, what<BR>
>>>makes a given tech level a tech level.<BR>
>>Of course, and I have.  It indicates the technology that is in<BR>
>>widely available on a world, that which PCs are typically going<BR>
>>to run into.  I don't really need anything more specific than<BR>
>>that.<BR>
>Then what you're saying is that TLs are "soft", which was actually the<BR>
>other option you presented, and the one you said that you didn't agree with.<BR>
>If, on the other hand, you actually went with what you said, you would have<BR>
>indicated why interstellar trade doesn't equalize TLs quickly, which means<BR>
>you have to have some understanding of what makes a world listed as TL5 a<BR>
>TL5 society, and not a TL4 or TL6 society.<BR>
<BR>
	I'm afraid that I don't follow this.  What I said about "soft TLs was:<BR>
<BR>
	"It is hard to defend the disparity in TL between nearby worlds in the<BR>
	OTU.  Given that such disparity is accepted, one can go one of two ways:<BR>
	either interstellar trade does not equalize TLs (at least, not very<BR>
	quickly), or the TLs are "soft" (Heya might have effectively TL 12<BR>
	farms).  I go for the former."<BR>
<BR>
	So IMTU the TL indicates the general level of technology that is in<BR>
	evidence, that may be purchased, etc.  Thus, my PCs would not normally<BR>
	find lots of TL 12 farms on a TL 5 world.  This does not rule out<BR>
	exceptional items (especially near the starport, in elite military<BR>
	units, toys of the rich and powerful, or even the TL 12 hermit out on<BR>
	Far Island), or even exceptional worlds.<BR>
<BR>
>I don't think that I'm being unreasonable. It seems to me that you<BR>
>initially said that you have an idea of why it's difficult for a world to go<BR>
>up in TL via of trade. You then placed this position in opposition to a<BR>
>"soft" understanding of TL. This led me to believe, obviously erroneously,<BR>
>that you viewed your understanding as "hard", and that clear boundaries<BR>
>exist between tech levels.<BR>
>However, in your recent post, you seem to have stepped back a bit, by<BR>
>adopting a position that TL indicates the kind of big machines characters<BR>
>may run into on a world. I guess that's fine, but that doesn't seem to be<BR>
>the position you were originally championing.<BR>
<BR>
	What I was trying to say (obviously not very effectively) is that<BR>
	(in no particular order):<BR>
		A) In realistic terms, the TL disparities in the OTU are<BR>
		difficult to explain (I understand that you do not agree).<BR>
		B) In Traveller terms, the TL disparities in the OTU are<BR>
		no more difficult to explain than certain other features<BR>
		of the OTU.<BR>
		C) A "soft" TL system is one in which technology from a<BR>
		higher TL may be in common use on a lower TL world. I do not<BR>
		use such a system (though I allow exceptions to most rules).<BR>
		D) I have "clear" bounderies between TLs, as much as that<BR>
		is practical for me. The vast majority of farms on a TL 5<BR>
		world IMTU use TL 5 tractors, not TL 12 grav-equipment.<BR>
	I apologise if I have been confusing.<BR>
<BR>
>>It might still be argued that having one or two steam engines does<BR>
>>not qualify a world as TL 4, but this is entirely beside the point.<BR>
>It is beside the point, because I never said "one or two" steam engines. I<BR>
>was asking if the steam engine was enough to make a TL1 society a TL3<BR>
>society. More broadly, the question involved the interactions between the<BR>
>various levels of technology, which you originally seemed to indicate that<BR>
>you had a notion about.<BR>
<BR>
	I do have a notion, though not necessarily a good one.  :)<BR>
<BR>
	When you ask if "the steam engine was enough to make a TL1 society<BR>
	a TL3 society," do you mean a steam engine or lots of them.  IMTU,<BR>
	if a TL 1 world manages to make a steam engine (like the Greek plan)<BR>
	I would not change the TL.  Also IMTU, the society will advance in<BR>
	other areas as it develops the capacity to make lots of useful steam<BR>
	engines. The reason that I made the comment about "one or two steam<BR>
	engines" is that my definition of TL (no better than anyone else's)<BR>
	deals with technology in common use and just a couple of steam<BR>
	engines will not usually change that.<BR>
<BR>
>>Representing the technology available to an entire world in all the<BR>
>>different disciplines with one number has inherent limitations.  If<BR>
>>you cannot live with such limitations, it is possible to specify<BR>
>>development of technology in more detail.  I find the simple system<BR>
>>more desirable, but allow myself to include TL 1 steam engines on<BR>
>>occasion if I desire.  YMMV.<BR>
>So, then it's possible to have TL1 steam engines. A steam engine is not<BR>
>actually a TL3 device, then. Fair enough, although honestly, I don't<BR>
>understand it.<BR>
<BR>
	For one thing, in the specific case of the steam engine, I would<BR>
	argue that an engine based on the ancient Greek plans are not any<BR>
	more a TL 3 steam engine than a modern steam turbine.  But this<BR>
	is just one example.  IMTU, I would allow TL 3 equipment to exist<BR>
	on a TL 1 world.  As a rule, I would restrict it to, at most, a<BR>
	rarity on that world.  On occasion, I might make exceptions to<BR>
	this rule (I don't like to restrict MTU by arbitrary rules).<BR>
	I hope that I have cleared up my POV.<BR>
<BR>
>>>Basically, if you treat TLs as hard, you face the challenge of figuring<BR>
>>>out what the threshold between TLs actually is. Good luck. I don't envy<BR>
>>>you on the task you've selected for yourself. :)<BR>
>>Not at all.  I pay little attention to the issue, it merely came up<BR>
>>in the discussion of agricultural production on Heya.<BR>
>Your comments indicated that you had a system that required you to pay<BR>
>attention to the issue, that there was some sort of economic consideration<BR>
>at hand, and that TLs were, in some way clear.<BR>
<BR>
	I was resonding to a general issue in a thread that involved some<BR>
	general questions about TL, agriculture, etc.<BR>
<BR>
>>>While you're doing that, I'll give be giving my own worlds their own<BR>
>>>flavor by using the tech level listing in the Universal Planetary Profile<BR>
>>>as a starting point. I'm not saying that my way is better, but it involves<BR>
>>>less work on my part.<BR>
>>I'm not sure why you think that I'm doing something different, but<BR>
>>I wish you well.<BR>
>Because, up until this message, you've expressed a totally different<BR>
>position than you are presenting now.<BR>
<BR>
	I respectfully disagree.<BR>
<BR>
>If you had simply said, "I don't<BR>
>really have an opinion on it, I just use it to indicate what kind of big<BR>
>machines the characters might run into,"<BR>
<BR>
	If this is what you think I'm saying, then we have failed to<BR>
	communicate.<BR>
<BR>
>I wouldn't have had to spend time<BR>
>trying to figure out where you were coming from.<BR>
<BR>
	I'm sorry if you feel that I have wasted your time.  This thread<BR>
	has made me think about a few interesting ideas.<BR>
<BR>
>Instead you said that you<BR>
>would hesitate to have the major industry of TL5 a world dominated by a<BR>
>higher tech level, implying that there was some economic reasoning behind<BR>
>your theory of how tech levels work, and what could or couldn't be found on<BR>
>a given world.<BR>
<BR>
	I meant no such implication.  IMTU the major industry of a world is<BR>
	by definition not dominated by a higher TL.  I'll work out the<BR>
	economic justification eventually.<BR>
<BR>
>>>I'm not even talking about gravitic soil-turners and robotic fruit-pickers<BR>
>>>here. I'm talking about hybrid crops, advanced pesticides, improved<BR>
>>>agricultural theory, and so on. At what point does TL5 farming become TL6?<BR>
>>>At what point does TL4 farming become TL5? If TL4 farming becomes TL5, and<BR>
>>>the society exports mostly agricultural products, is the society classified<BR>
>>>as TL5? What if the industrial capability of the world is TL1, the<BR>
>>>construction technology at TL2 and the materials technology at TL0?<BR>
>>Not something I worry about.  For me, TL is just a general indication<BR>
>>of what you see when you leave the starport.  Maybe there is one<BR>
>>air/raft-taxi, but are the streets filled with gnart-and-buggies?<BR>
>Fair enough, but why enter yourself into a discussion with someone who<BR>
>clearly does worry about it, and wants to work out interesting ideas and<BR>
>ways to handle the problems in the TL system? More importantly, why bother<BR>
>to present a position that clearly doesn't reflect the way that you seem to<BR>
>actually handle things?<BR>
<BR>
	I did not intend to enter into a discussion about what exactly what point<BR>
	a TL changes from 5.9 to 6.  Rather, I entered into a discussion about<BR>
	how productive farms on Heya are likely to be.  This obviously depends to<BR>
	some extent on TL, and I was happy to discuss the relative abundance of<BR>
	TL 12 stuff on a TL 5 world, but the actual point at which one TL changes<BR>
	to another is not of burning interest to me.  The discussion about Heya<BR>
	could easily spin off to governments, Imperial policy, biology, shipping,<BR>
	etc., etc.  Many of these are interesting, but I don't necessarily want to<BR>
	pursue them all.<BR>
<BR>
	I do not agree that I have presented a position at variance to how I<BR>
	actually handle things.  I certainly do discuss things that don't come up<BR>
	IMTU: I like the background, it helps me to visualize MTU, and I might even<BR>
	have something to contribute occasionally.<BR>
<BR>
	It appears to me that this thread has become much more about what people<BR>
	said and less about Traveller.  I won't try to get the last word in, as<BR>
	you may feel the need to respond to what I have posted here.  However,<BR>
	I shall try to restrain myself from further posts in this thread.  Thank<BR>
	you for your indulgence.<BR>
<BR>
Peez<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2259<BR>
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Traveller-digest      Thursday, April 6 2000      Volume 1999 : Number 2260<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Filk explosion! Dulinor went to Capital<BR>
Re: Grossly Expensive Products (was: Re: Filk explosion!...)<BR>
Re: GT-Q: Ground Penetrating Radar and other toys<BR>
Re: Warrant of the Restoration<BR>
Arcosanti<BR>
Re: 20th Century and the Imperium<BR>
RE: Notes on building Heya<BR>
RE: what is tech level?<BR>
Re: Disparate TLs<BR>
re:  Heya/Regina<BR>
RE: <BR>
Keyboard Kills (was RE:)<BR>
Re: 10 foot ceilings (was re: Life support)<BR>
Re: Disparate TLs<BR>
RE: Notes on building Heya<BR>
Re: Famile Spofulam Hi-Sensitivity Scout<BR>
Re: Supernova<BR>
Re: Type-Ss with a spinal mount meson gun?<BR>
Re: Gencon UK<BR>
Re: (was) Notes on building Heya (long)<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2259<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 20:00:32 +0100<BR>
From: "Nick Bradbeer" <nickb@ndirect.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: Filk explosion! Dulinor went to Capital<BR>
<BR>
>Um.  I plead utter exhaustion by that point for not remebering anything<BR>
>that happened in trailer park.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Sounds like a quote from a presidential trial....<BR>
<BR>
NB<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 19:46:00 +0100<BR>
From: "Nick Bradbeer" <nickb@ndirect.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: Grossly Expensive Products (was: Re: Filk explosion!...)<BR>
<BR>
>When you can build a Type S variant that costs over MCr 627, then we can<BR>
>talk "grossly expensive."  Until then, you got _nothin'_ to show me. ;-)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Doesn't strike me as incredibly difficult... <pops out Akins spreadsheet,<BR>
starts pottering><BR>
<BR>
Nope. I can get a Type-S variant (guess what, it's got long-range sensors!)<BR>
which costs well over a Gigacredit and required less effort to design than<BR>
this reply did.<BR>
<BR>
I can't say it's really made my day though.<BR>
<BR>
Nick<BR>
+++<BR>
Grumpy about design stuff right now, because I'm supposed to be on holiday<BR>
but I have a huge pile of design stuff to get done before next term. Ignore<BR>
me and I'll go away eventually.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 18:33:45 +0100<BR>
From: "Nick Bradbeer" <nickb@ndirect.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: GT-Q: Ground Penetrating Radar and other toys<BR>
<BR>
>IMHO, since there are few plausible excuses for a starship to loiter<BR>
>(there aren't any fish to catch in interplanetary space), you're better<BR>
>off designing a standoff SIGINT platform, able to operate at distances<BR>
>of 1,000 AU or greater.<BR>
<BR>
I disagree. I can see a 'spy trder' being very useful as an intel gathering<BR>
asset. Wander from planet to planet, pick up and drop off cargo, hang around<BR>
for three or four days in each system, and listen to all that lovely radio<BR>
traffic.<BR>
<BR>
If you decide you'd like to hang around a bit longer in one place, discover<BR>
that you need repairs.<BR>
<BR>
There's a place for 1000AU SIGINT ships too, but they fulfill a totally<BR>
different role. And they tend to be really expensive too....oh, I see...it's<BR>
AuricTech....<BR>
<BR>
Nick<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 18:05:07 EDT<BR>
From: Qstor@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Warrant of the Restoration<BR>
<BR>
Nice job on the Imperial law web site :)<BR>
<BR>
<--- From a fellow lawyer :)<BR>
<BR>
I was asked during a game once if IISS members could claims rights of salvage <BR>
and I winged it and said no...I checked a treatise on the law of admirality <BR>
at a library here in the US and I was right...No salvage for members of the <BR>
military<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 10:29:27 -0400 <BR>
From: "Smith, Walter" <SmithW@hartwick.edu><BR>
Subject: Arcosanti<BR>
<BR>
Due to the post on Arcologies, I looked at the Arcosanti site. <BR>
I stumbled into a definitions page. It's written as english, but<BR>
it reads like jargonistic gobbledygook to me. I must not be<BR>
evolved enough yet.<BR>
<BR>
http://www.arcosanti.org/arcosanti/pscosmo/<BR>
<BR>
ObTrav: Inspiration for aliens (human or otherwise) - just have<BR>
them talk in such dense jargonese, coupled with deep, personal,<BR>
unusual meanings for otherwise common words.<BR>
<BR>
"I have complexified your starship, desirer. What are you being?"<BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 10:41:34 -0400<BR>
From: "VonRammen" <von_rammen@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re: 20th Century and the Imperium<BR>
<BR>
Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Chris, excellent post. I think that you're for the most part right. While<BR>
the 3I has many obvious similarities to 20th C Western culture, politically<BR>
it's a much different animal.<BR>
<BR>
The very fact that there's a hereditary nobility is going to change a lot of<BR>
people's attitudes towards politics at the interstellar level. I think the<BR>
Imperium would encourage the belief that, at interstellar levels, "democracy<BR>
just doesn't work." (Given the travel times, they might not be wrong!) This<BR>
would be much the same attitude the aristocracy of Europe had from, say, the<BR>
5th Century to the late 19th Century. When Lincoln gave the Gettysburg<BR>
address and described the Union as the "last, best hope of man on Earth," he<BR>
wasn't being all that hyperbolic: the US was the only large democracy in the<BR>
world that had a tradition of orderly succession of power (IIRC, the British<BR>
Reform acts were still several years away; anyway, at the time, the British<BR>
PM was a noble (Lord Palmerston))<BR>
<BR>
As a comparable 20th C example, my girlfriend knew a Jordanian who worked at<BR>
the UN. She was shocked at the way he referred to King Hussein, describing<BR>
it as something almost worshipful. I'm not saying every citizen of 3I will<BR>
have that kind of an attitude, but it would clearly be encouraged.<BR>
<BR>
As to the legacy of the Enlightenment, the 3I attitude might be the same as<BR>
the Roman Imperial attitude towards the Roman system (which obviously<BR>
discriminated in favor of those with wealth and status): democracies<BR>
invariably do the same thing; our system is actually more honest, because we<BR>
make those with status and power obviously responsible. The Roman system was<BR>
based to a high degree on personal honor; there was a specific path to<BR>
power, the Cursus Honorum, that had steps of increasing responsibility and<BR>
power, that had to be followed; the Romans, at least during the Republic,<BR>
wouldn't stand for just anybody trying to take over without having proved<BR>
himself first.<BR>
<BR>
Another aspect of the Roman system that seems strange to the acquisitive<BR>
eyes of our century is the expectation that those with great wealth would<BR>
plow it back into the public good. Most Roman political positions were<BR>
unpaid, and the budgets were never high enough to meet costs; the<BR>
officeholder was expected to make up the shortfall. Of course, the system<BR>
broke down often, but even to the end of the Empire the rich were expected<BR>
to at least support their patrons (cynics would call this pandering to the<BR>
masses, but it was an important part of the Roman political system--and when<BR>
our politicians offer tax cuts, who's to say they're any different? But the<BR>
Romans handed out their own, not just the public's, money.) If the Imperium<BR>
has such a tradition (and I expect they might) it would go a long way to<BR>
justifying the aristocracy to the average citizen.<BR>
<BR>
Fred Ramen<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2000 10:34:57 -0400<BR>
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca><BR>
Subject: RE: Notes on building Heya<BR>
<BR>
Chris Seamans writes:<BR>
>It's certainly possible that various forms of synthetic food might be more<BR>
>expensive. There are certain advantages to something like single-celled<BR>
>proteins. They would grow themselves and would simply need a clean<BR>
>environment (which would involve robot workers, "clean suits", or something<BR>
>similar). Arable land wouldn't be important, nor would complex<BR>
>electro-mechanical hydroponics setups.<BR>
<BR>
	As a plus, this can be part of the waste disposal system.  The down<BR>
	side may be the quality of food, but that problem may be mitigated<BR>
	eventually.<BR>
<BR>
>As a side note, although hydroponics are generally considered to be in the<BR>
>realm of domed cities and space stations, they could be very useful in<BR>
>locations with contaminated soil and / or water. I live in inner city<BR>
>Philadelphia, and there's a hydroponic farm right down the street. As it<BR>
>turns out, they can't plant stuff in the ground because there used to be a<BR>
>galvanizing plant on the site and all kinds of really unpleasant things have<BR>
>leached into the soil.<BR>
<BR>
	Good point, I would expect all of the available methods of food<BR>
	production to be used where possible.  Vats of geneered yeast for<BR>
	protein that is used in cheap food products and animal feed, hydroponics<BR>
	for specialty vegetables, greenhouses for gourmet delicacies, etc.<BR>
<BR>
Peez<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 10:39:48 -0400<BR>
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net><BR>
Subject: RE: what is tech level?<BR>
<BR>
>I've sort of been reading this thread.  You may find this<BR>
>observation useful, or not.<BR>
<BR>
Rockin'<BR>
<BR>
>Within the game, tech level, along with the rest of the UPP, is<BR>
>assigned to the world by the IISS during its Grand Surveys.<BR>
>This is from Little Black Book #3, if I recall correctly.  (In<BR>
>my Traveller universe at least, IISS also does Petit Surveys<BR>
>within sectors and subsectors that update the occasional Grand<BR>
>Surveys.)  Recall that one of the early published adventures<BR>
>involved the local Scout office hiring the PCs to travel around<BR>
>Regina Subsector (I think), auditing the assigned UPPs.<BR>
<BR>
I couldn't find this in Book 3. Indeed, book three refers to the navy,<BR>
scouts and so on in the lowercase, and there isn't much discussion regarding<BR>
the Imperium. I am familiar with the idea that the UPP is a mechanic that<BR>
exists *within* the game world.<BR>
<BR>
>The Scout Service must have a set of regulations that set forth<BR>
>what the survey crews are to examine in determining tech level.<BR>
>It's probably a fairly extensive list.  The gist of that set of<BR>
>regulations is what we're arguing about on the TML.  I don't<BR>
>recall what that gist is.  Highest level at which goods can be<BR>
>produced?  Highest level at which most goods are produced?<BR>
>Highest level of goods in use? that can be used at all? that can<BR>
>be used effectively?  I suspect that all of these questions are<BR>
>considered by the survey crews.<BR>
<BR>
I can find three references, plus a table, in Book 3 as to what constitutes<BR>
a tech level:<BR>
<BR>
	"The degree of technological expertise, and thus the capabilities of local<BR>
industry, depends greatly on the basic characteristics of a world...<BR>
	"Technological index may vary from zero to 20, more commonly ranging from 4<BR>
through about 10. Higher numbers indicate greater capability.<BR>
	"The technological level is used in conjunction with the technological<BR>
level table to determine the general quality and capability of local<BR>
industry. The tables indicate the general types or categories of goods in<BR>
general use on the world. In most cases, such goods are the best which may<BR>
be produced locally, although better goods may be imported by local<BR>
organizations or businesses when a specific need is felt. In most cases,<BR>
local citizenry will not be armed with weapons of a type which cannot be<BR>
produced locally, although police or military may be. Technological level<BR>
also indicates the general ability of local technology to repair or maintain<BR>
items which have failed or malfunctioned.<BR>
	"The technological level tables have several spaces or holes, and such gaps<BR>
should be filled in by the referee or the players when they discover items<BR>
or devices of interest."<BR>
<BR>
	- pages 7-8, under the heading "Technological Level"<BR>
<BR>
	"Tech Level: The technological level of a world determines the quality and<BR>
sophistication of the products of a world. It indicates what precise types<BR>
of equipment are available and common locally."<BR>
<BR>
	- page 9, under the heading "Referee's Notes"<BR>
<BR>
	"The technological level [of a piece of equipment] indicates local<BR>
technology required to manufacture something with the capabilities listed."<BR>
<BR>
	- page 17, at the beginning of the section on Equipment<BR>
<BR>
	There is also a list, at the end of the section, with different categories<BR>
of devices, cross indexed with tech level. The LBBs do not have, as far as I<BR>
can tell, a list like the one that later versions of Traveller used (TL9 =<BR>
1990s, etc).<BR>
<BR>
	Under Referee's Notes, on page 8, there is information for the referee<BR>
concerning how to parse the UPP in general. The sequence of random world<BR>
generation "can best be seen as a prod to the imagination," and specific<BR>
characteristics should be "construed as guidelines rather than strict<BR>
limits."<BR>
<BR>
	I would be interested in knowing what the adventure you've mentioned has to<BR>
say about tech levels, however. That could be very interesting.<BR>
<BR>
	My own take on tech level is pretty much in keeping with the way it's<BR>
presented in Book 3. It's what's generally available and generally<BR>
sustainable. It's not necessarily what the population, as a whole, uses. I<BR>
use it as a "prod to the imagination". I have a very general conception of<BR>
what a world might be like at a given tech level, and then I try to figure<BR>
out what local industries there might be, and what outside forces might have<BR>
an interest in developing or exploiting those local industries. I don't have<BR>
a problem with high-tech automated strip mining on a TL3 world, or high-tech<BR>
farming techniques on a TL5 world.<BR>
	I tend not to use any of the "official" trade rules (although Far Trader<BR>
loooks pretty nice, and I've experimented with it) to flesh out the major<BR>
trade routes within a subsector for the simple reason that I feel that the<BR>
GM should have total control in this area. For the most part, I don't need<BR>
to know exactly how many credits are made, or how many tons of product are<BR>
shipped.<BR>
	I use the TL rating to indicate what might be purchased on a given planet<BR>
by visiting player characters. On "my" version of Heya, it isn't a big deal<BR>
that the locals use fusion powered tractors because I can't imagine my<BR>
players sending their characters to Heya in order to buy these tractors. It<BR>
may be important if they need to jury rig the fusion engine for some other<BR>
purpose, but since I already know that these devices exist, and have noted<BR>
their existence in my notes, it's not a really big deal.<BR>
	I also use TLs to spot "oddities". A world with a low TL, but which happens<BR>
to exist in an area that doesn't seem to be sustainable using that TL (TL4<BR>
on an airless world, for example) indicates that something is different<BR>
about this world. It may indicate a place which was built with a higher TL,<BR>
but which has fallen into general disrepair. The inhabitants may fix leaks<BR>
with cheap, high-tech spray polymers, or may replace high-tech components<BR>
with some alternative, and so on.<BR>
	In short, I use TL as a guideline, not as a hard and fast rule. In most of<BR>
my campaigns, I use the UPP itself only so that player characters can figure<BR>
out where they have to go to buy the things that they might want to buy.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 00:15:05 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Disparate TLs<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>         I don't disagree, but I think that social inertia may play a role:<BR>
>         "Dag blasted motor-engine tractors!  My team o' good horsoids has<BR>
>         done me fine for 35 years, an' I don't see why ya wanna bring in<BR>
>         these noisy new-fangled offworlder gidgits."<BR>
>         "Mylord Horshule, methinks this talk of 'progress' is dangerous to<BR>
>         our monopoly.  And there are disturbing ideas about educating the<BR>
>         commoners."<BR>
<BR>
If you have access to a library that has issues of Analog from the<BR>
1960s, try finding the Christopher Anvil story "The Royal Road". It<BR>
deals with attempting to increase the TL of a planet when many of the<BR>
local lords are against it.<BR>
<BR>
The government agency that is trying to "encourage" this isn't having a<BR>
lot of luck. They finally bring in what is ostensibly a "private firm"<BR>
but is actually a front for a "government" agency that has a rep for<BR>
getting things done efficiently, though often via unorthodox methods.<BR>
<BR>
Much fun ensues, especially since most *readers* won't catch on the<BR>
the subtle bit of economics that resolves the situation.<BR>
<BR>
Anvil is a writer that really *deserves* a wider audience. Alas, he<BR>
writes mostly short stories. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 18:31:13 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: re:  Heya/Regina<BR>
<BR>
>From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
<BR>
Excellent post, Doug!  Here's my take on an adventure seed:<BR>
<BR>
Rrafgroughz and the XO come bouncing into the bridge, "r'hey<BR>
r'hey r'hey," says Rraf, "we're gro-in' t'Heyra!"  "That's<BR>
Heya," says the XO, testy.  "R'yeh, thrat's whrat I sraid!" says<BR>
Rraf, playing up the stereotyped Gvegh accent.  I've been<BR>
watching holovids from Heya all day; I guess I got word a little<BR>
earlier than Rraf.  One of them features a stand-up comic in<BR>
Brian's Crossing making horrific racial slurs about the Vargr,<BR>
mocking their walk, faking their talk.  The Heyans didn't have<BR>
stand up comedy before the war.  They didn't have entertainment<BR>
holovids, either.  <BR>
<BR>
"Well sophs," I say, "which one hired us?"  "Brarrkrong!" shouts<BR>
Rraf, obviously delighted, practically doing cartwheels, not<BR>
caring that I knew what was going down before he did. <BR>
"Brarrkrong has hired us to carry the Aramis Spaceboppers to<BR>
Heya for an exhibition game!"  "And what do the spacebunnies, er<BR>
boppers, or whatever, play?"  <BR>
<BR>
"Who knows?" says the XO, "it's just a cover for a platoon-sized<BR>
mercenary unit.  We're just carrying the team and its legitimate<BR>
sports equipment.  Whatever else they want they have some other<BR>
method of getting to the dirt, and I didn't wanna know about<BR>
it."<BR>
<BR>
"What else we gotta do? Get 'em to the dirt; grease customs and<BR>
immigration? Anything on-site?"<BR>
<BR>
"Extraction if necessary.  Client is providing recent images of<BR>
the operations area.  Our cargo will include six air/rafts<BR>
marked for transshipment to Menorb."  Crom, I'm thinking, outta<BR>
service ten years and he's still talking like he's got the CO's<BR>
foot up it; maybe he does?  <BR>
<BR>
"These Spacebobs -- whatrthey -- they human or Vargr or?" <BR>
"Mixed bag," says Rraf, "the message is unity and harmony and<BR>
stuff. Two races playing nicely together stuff."  <BR>
<BR>
"The Heyans will call the humans traitors to their race," says<BR>
the XO.  He's right, too.  <BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.<BR>
http://im.yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 15:56:08 +0100 <BR>
From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com><BR>
Subject: RE: <BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith wrote:<BR>
<snip><BR>
<BR>
I've been trying to think up  a  suitable  response  but  failed.<BR>
Anyway, it caught me by surprise and you win a keyboard kill  ...<BR>
one keyboard pebble-dashed with lamb and mint sauce!<BR>
<BR>
Regards PLST<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 11:01:11 -0400 <BR>
From: "Smith, Walter" <SmithW@hartwick.edu><BR>
Subject: Keyboard Kills (was RE:)<BR>
<BR>
Peter Trevor wrote:<BR>
>I've been trying to think up  a  suitable  response  but  failed. <BR>
>Anyway, it caught me by surprise and you win a keyboard kill  ... <BR>
>one keyboard pebble-dashed with lamb and mint sauce! <BR>
<BR>
Ladies and gentlemen, I am now a keyboard ace. My life is complete. <G><BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2000 12:45:23 +0100<BR>
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com><BR>
Subject: Re: 10 foot ceilings (was re: Life support)<BR>
<BR>
"Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com> wrote:<BR>
>At 05:44 AM 4/5/2000 PST, you wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>>Then there was the French Curve I used for so sections... :-)<BR>
><BR>
>AP - Medford, Ore.  Local Dungeonmaster Leonard Erickson was found dead<BR>
>today, evidently killed by one of his on players.  Leonard was found with a<BR>
>protractor enbedded in his back.  His suspected killer was heard screaming<BR>
>"right angles!  What in the (deleted) is wrong with right angles?" as he<BR>
>was led away.<BR>
<BR>
I agree totally, if corridor angles were meant to be 60 degrees, they<BR>
wouldn't call 90 degrees the *right* angle.<BR>
<BR>
And as for 107 degrees, anyone using that sort of angle is just being obtuse!<BR>
<BR>
ObTrav, aren't all staterooms 2 squares by 3, all corridors 2 squares wide and<BR>
all rooms rectangular, with the fuel filling the gap between the interior<BR>
and the neat curvy outline?<BR>
<BR>
If we aren't careful, there'll be people building hexagonal spaceships...<BR>
<BR>
<g, d, r><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Phil Kitching<BR>
- --<BR>
  http://www.btinternet.com/~salvo/<BR>
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.<BR>
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2000 13:12:35 +0100<BR>
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Disparate TLs<BR>
<BR>
Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca> wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>	This seams very reasonable.  Of course, an interested Megacorp could<BR>
>	then up the TL of a small population world with relative ease in less<BR>
>	than 1 year.<BR>
<BR>
Since this is one possibility for how, for example, Pixie became TL13 with an<BR>
A grade starport, I wouldn't reject it out of hand.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Phil Kitching<BR>
- --<BR>
  http://www.btinternet.com/~salvo/<BR>
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.<BR>
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2000 13:47:01 +0100<BR>
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Notes on building Heya<BR>
<BR>
"Patrik Holmstrm" <glappkaeft@hotmail.com> wrote:<BR>
>>Genetically modified seeds and advanced fertilizers don't sound like<BR>
>>equipment that would be available at TL5. Is a farm with TL9 seeds a >TL9 <BR>
>>farm, or a TL5 farm?<BR>
><BR>
>I would say that most vegetables I know of would be TL0 technology as they <BR>
>are very easy to produce (and that is easy as in "pop one or it's seed into <BR>
>the ground and you get many more") if you have the right conditions. If an <BR>
>Ancient potato modified with TL25+ technology could be grown just like an <BR>
>ordinary potato, just more efficient, then nothing would stop a TL5 farmer <BR>
>from growing them in his fields. You could of course modify/treat them so <BR>
>that they can't be used to grow new plant (IIRC this was done with kiwi <BR>
>fruits).<BR>
<BR>
IMO, it depends on what happens at the end of the growth cycle.<BR>
<BR>
If you just select some of the seeds out of the crop and replant them,<BR>
then the plant is effectively without TL. After all, a native plant growing<BR>
on Rhylandor with no outside involvement is not TL15 just because the<BR>
people are.<BR>
<BR>
However, if you can't get the seed from last year's crop, but have to<BR>
import it from a TL15 biotech company, then the seed is TL15 and if TL15<BR>
imports stop your planet starves just as if all its TL15 grav tractors<BR>
stopped working.<BR>
<BR>
I think the same thing applies if growing the plant requires TL15<BR>
infrastructure, be it irrigation, pesticides, nutrients, protection<BR>
by a black globe or whatever.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Phil Kitching<BR>
- --<BR>
  http://www.btinternet.com/~salvo/<BR>
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.<BR>
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 07:17:10 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Famile Spofulam Hi-Sensitivity Scout<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>> From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net><BR>
>> Subject: Grossly Expensive Products (was: Re: Filk explosion!...)<BR>
>><BR>
>><BR>
>> When you can build a Type S variant that costs over MCr 627, then we can<BR>
>> talk "grossly expensive."  Until then, you got _nothin'_ to show me. ;-)<BR>
>><BR>
>> BTW, you _do_ realize that I have an even more capable, more expensive<BR>
>> version of the _Scandalous_ class in the works, don't you?<BR>
>><BR>
><BR>
> Ditzie humphs.<BR>
><BR>
> 100 dton Needle configuration is 81.3 m long.<BR>
><BR>
> Therefore we can fit 400 m3 of TL11 PEMS, as we need a 30m length to mount<BR>
> it.<BR>
><BR>
> A Fac 14/200 m2/400 m3 TL11 PEMS costs a cold gigacredit.<BR>
><BR>
> We calculate it can detect a J class racing yacht at seven parsecs.<BR>
<BR>
If you *care* about what was going on 22.8 years ago (that being the<BR>
time it takes a light speed signal to croos 7 parsecs). <BR>
:-)<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 07:21:21 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Supernova<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> On 5 Apr 00, at 7:46, Brian Quirt wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>> > Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
>> > >So by the time you detect the neutrino pulse, it's too late.<BR>
>> > > A short moment of silence, as everybody digests the meaning of<BR>
><BR>
>> Wait a moment here. Are we talking about the same neutrinos? The<BR>
>> essentially (albeit not quite) massless particles that have almost zero<BR>
>> chance of ever interacting with ANY normal matter (such that the<BR>
>> neutrino flux from the sun is essentially identical on both sides of the<BR>
>> world- no measureable number of neutrinos are absorbed by travelling<BR>
>> through the earth). How much damage could they cause? Also, what are we<BR>
>> looking at in the way of a neutrino pulse? How intense? At this point,<BR>
>> we have a hard enough time DETECTING neutrinos, so I'm wondering how we<BR>
>> could possibly know what they would cause in the way of radiation damage.<BR>
><BR>
> The key words here are "almost" and "albeit not quite". Frightening isn't it.<BR>
<BR>
It just occured to me that there's a *simple* analogy for anybody who<BR>
has every lived in an area that has swarms of gnats or "no see 'ums".<BR>
To whit:<BR>
<BR>
*One* gnat isn't worth notice...<BR>
<BR>
... but when they are found at densities of (seemingly) a dozen per cc,<BR>
over areas measured in hundreds of meters (yards), then they are rather<BR>
more than a "problem". <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 07:03:27 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Type-Ss with a spinal mount meson gun?<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> I just had a bazzare thought: why do all the magnets  (and  other<BR>
> components) of a spinal mount meson gun (aka linear  accelerator)<BR>
> have to be on the same ship?  With commo-linked computer  control<BR>
> a dreadnought sized spinal mount meson  gun  could  be  dispersed<BR>
> over a number of ships.  (A bit like Ditzie's EMPG.)  They'd then<BR>
> all line up to fire.<BR>
<BR>
Synchronization would be a nightmare. For that matter, since a PAW or<BR>
MG requires *strong* magnetic fields, in *precise* alignment, I really<BR>
don't see it as practical. <BR>
<BR>
Remember, timings have to be accurate to the near c speed of the<BR>
particles. This is doable in big ground based accelerators because the<BR>
magnets *can't* move with respect to each other. With them on seperate<BR>
ships, it won't go very well. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2000 08:18:21<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Gencon UK<BR>
<BR>
At 02:31 PM 4/6/2000 +0100, you wrote:<BR>
>Just spotted on the web ...<BR>
><BR>
>Gencon UK will *not* be at Loughborogh this year!  Instead it  is<BR>
>now going to be held in the  Manchester  Convention  Center.  The<BR>
>reasons are at<BR>
<BR>
And it is beginning to look like Penguin Boy might make it to the other<BR>
side of the planet to attend and run some ACQ.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas "Penguin Boy" Berry  gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
  http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
"But that's not the point!" raged Ford. "The point is that I am now a<BR>
perfectly safe penguin, and my colleague here is rapidly running out of<BR>
limbs!"  - The Hitchhiker's Guide To The Galaxy<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 11:29:50 -0400<BR>
From: "Steven E. Ehrbar" <ehrbar@SoftHome.net><BR>
Subject: Re: (was) Notes on building Heya (long)<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: "Ian Ferguson" <ian@vax2.concordia.ca><BR>
> "It is hard to defend the disparity in TL between nearby worlds in the<BR>
> OTU."<BR>
<BR>
Not really.  With just a week's travel today it's easy to go to a place on<BR>
Earth where the highest technology items (except for the vehicle you came<BR>
in) for a significant distance are late Victorian tech firearms, while the<BR>
general level is medieval tech or earlier.  Since the minimum time distance<BR>
in Trav between any two stars is a week, a TL difference the size of the<BR>
current Silicon Valley-inner DR Congo difference isn't too hard to defend.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2000 08:46:17 -0700<BR>
From: william wheeler <wuffa@inetarena.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2259<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
><BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> ------------------------------<BR>
><BR>
> Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 05:46:13 PST<BR>
> From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
> Subject: Re: Supernova (was re: stories in the printed copy of New Scientist which relate toTraveller)<BR>
><BR>
> In mail you write:<BR>
><BR>
> >> Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
> >> >So by the time you detect the neutrino pulse, it's too late.<BR>
> >> > A short moment of silence, as everybody digests the meaning of<BR>
> >> <snip><BR>
> >> >No, everyone falls into a coma from the intense radiation dosage.<BR>
> >> ><BR>
> >> >Anybody far enough out to "only" get a lethal dose will quickly learn<BR>
> >> >that they have only a few weeks to live.<BR>
> >> ><BR>
> >> >I can't think of any "precursor" that occurs enough before the neutrino<BR>
> >> >flash.<BR>
> ><BR>
> > Wait a moment here. Are we talking about the same neutrinos? The<BR>
> > essentially (albeit not quite) massless particles that have almost zero<BR>
> > chance of ever interacting with ANY normal matter (such that the<BR>
> > neutrino flux from the sun is essentially identical on both sides of the<BR>
> > world- no measureable number of neutrinos are absorbed by travelling<BR>
> > through the earth).<BR>
><BR>
> Yep.<BR>
><BR>
> > How much damage could they cause? Also, what are we<BR>
> > looking at in the way of a neutrino pulse? How intense? At this point,<BR>
> > we have a hard enough time DETECTING neutrinos, so I'm wondering how we<BR>
> > could possibly know what they would cause in the way of radiation damage.<BR>
><BR>
> Any *individual* neutrino has a very *very* small chance of interacting<BR>
> with an atom (the usual example is something about light years of lead...)<BR>
><BR>
> The detectors we currently have work be detecting the transmuation of<BR>
> elements due to atoms having aborbed a neutrino (changes a neutron into<BR>
> a proton or vice versa, along with emitting/absorbing an electron or<BR>
> positron to keep the charge balance correct).<BR>
><BR>
> So when a neutrino *is* absorbed, it can change an atom into a<BR>
> different element, as well as disrupted the chemical bonds in is<BR>
> involved in. That bond disruption is how *all* radiation damage works.<BR>
><BR>
> With a supernova, look at it this way. At something like 50,000 parsecs<BR>
> we detected 4 neutrinos in a set of detectors that had a total cross<BR>
> sectional area of a square kilometer (I'm being *very* generous<BR>
> regarding that area!).<BR>
><BR>
> A parsec is a bit over 200,000 AU. So the distance was around<BR>
> 10,000,000,000 AUs. Neutrino flux obeys the inverse square law. Which<BR>
> means that at 1 AU from the supernova, our detectors would have<BR>
> registered 400,000,000,000,000,000,000 (400e18 or 4e20) neutrinos per<BR>
> sq km.<BR>
><BR>
> Traveller detectors would detect *billions* of times as many. Which, as<BR>
> I noted, would be equivalent to turning a gigawatt laser or PAW on<BR>
> them. Consider 1 GW divided by 4e20 means that the neutrinos *only*<BR>
> have to deposit 2.5e12 watts each (2.5 *picowatts*). I'm pretty sure<BR>
> they are more energetic than that..<BR>
<BR>
- -Mu Neutrinos are at 24 pico watts<BR>
- -E Neutrinos are at 19 pico watts<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> A human body has around 1 m^2 of crossectional area. That's 1<BR>
> *millionth* of a km^2. So a human body would have *merely* 4e14<BR>
> neutrinos *interact* with it. A lethal dose of radiation is something<BR>
> like 600 rads. Trust me, that's a *lot* more than 600 rads.<BR>
><BR>
> At 5 AU, the dose is 1/25th as much.<BR>
><BR>
> Anyway, professional scientists made the "5 AU = lethal dose of<BR>
> neutrinos" back in 89. It's really true.<BR>
><BR>
> You have to realize that the core of the sun is only converting a very<BR>
> few protons to neutrons at any given moment. Maybe a few kilos worth.<BR>
> But when a star undergoes the core collapse that is the first stage of<BR>
> a supernova, the *entire core* gets converted to neutrons. That's many<BR>
> times the mass of earth.<BR>
><BR>
> It's because there is that incredible flux of neutrinos that the<BR>
> "insignificant" percentage that interact with normal matter becomes<BR>
> lethal.<BR>
><BR>
> One penny is an isignificant amount of money. But get one penny from<BR>
> everyone on Earth and you have 60 million dollars.<BR>
><BR>
> Likewise, if one neutrino in a trillion interacts with matter, if you<BR>
> have 10^30 (1e30) of them, that suddenly becomes 1e18...<BR>
><BR>
> When dealing with supernovas, get used to mind numbing numbers. :-)<BR>
><BR>
> - --<BR>
> Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
>  shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
> leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
><BR>
> ------------------------------<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2260<BR>
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Traveller-digest      Thursday, April 6 2000      Volume 1999 : Number 2261<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
RE: FS High Sensitivity Scout<BR>
Re: Supernova (was re: stories in the printed copy of New Scientist w hich relate toTraveller)<BR>
RE: Supernova <BR>
RE: TL disparities in the OTU<BR>
Re: New Madrid, etc.<BR>
RE: Supernova <BR>
re: Gencon UK<BR>
Re: Gencon UK<BR>
Re: Gencon UK<BR>
Re: Traveller Bibliography: Was District 268 Canon<BR>
Re: L+ Megacorp (was RS)<BR>
Re: Supernova (was re: stories in the printed copy of New Scientist  which relate toTraveller)<BR>
Re: Traveller is the #1 RPG, but only barely...<BR>
Re: FF&S2: Universal grapples question<BR>
Re: Famile Spofulam Hi-Sensitivity Scout<BR>
Re: Gencon UK<BR>
RE: L+ Megacorp (was RS)<BR>
Re: Traveller is the #1 RPG, but only barely...<BR>
Re: Astronomy in the 57th Century<BR>
Re: Astronomy in the 57th Century<BR>
Re: Astronomy in the 57th Century<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 08:39:50 EDT<BR>
From: Damage169@cs.com<BR>
Subject: RE: FS High Sensitivity Scout<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 4/5/00 7:52:31 AM Central Daylight Time, <BR>
owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
> Ditzie humphs.<BR>
>  <BR>
>  100 dton Needle configuration is 81.3 m long.<BR>
>  <BR>
>  Therefore we can fit 400 m3 of TL11 PEMS, as we need a 30m length to mount<BR>
>  it.<BR>
>  <BR>
>  A Fac 14/200 m2/400 m3 TL11 PEMS costs a cold gigacredit.<BR>
>  <BR>
>  We calculate it can detect a J class racing yacht at seven parsecs.<BR>
>  <BR>
>  I'll leave it to the apprentices to shoehorn in the jump-2 drive, the 2 Gs<BR>
>  of T-plates, the two cabins and the type IV life support.<BR>
>  <BR>
>  Ian Whitchurch<BR>
<BR>
With all respect to Ms. Ditzie, given the exhaust plume on the FS J-class <BR>
yacht, it can be detected by a ground-based 5 cm optical telescope at 7 <BR>
parsecs. :)<BR>
<BR>
Doug G.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 09:32:01 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Supernova (was re: stories in the printed copy of New Scientist w hich relate toTraveller)<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erickson writes:<BR>
<BR>
> Just a note for anyone wanting to try this. Pre-supernova stars are red<BR>
> giants[1]. Bruce may be able to give the required size code for a type M<BR>
> star to be a potential supernova.<BR>
<BR>
Actually, I think that moderately recently they detected a supernova in a<BR>
situation where they actually knew what the star had been before, and it was<BR>
a blue giant.<BR>
<BR>
> Oh yeah, since you get a white dwarf by having a star go supernova, the<BR>
> planets are gonna be in lousy shape anyway... but maybe the remnats<BR>
> have valuable minerals. :-)<BR>
<BR>
Actually, I don't think a supernova is required for a white dwarf.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 09:36:35 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Supernova <BR>
<BR>
>From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
>Subject: RE: Supernova (was re: stories in the printed copy <BR>
>ofNewScientist w hich relate toTraveller)<BR>
<BR>
>Hey Hey, My My (Into the Black)<BR>
>Hey hey, my my.<BR>
>Our old sun is going to die !<BR>
<BR>
That was excellent!<BR>
<BR>
>Of course, then there's "Monday Morning" by the Intergalactic <BR>
>Touring Band, who also did "Space Commando".<BR>
<BR>
Is that the one that whose chorus goes,<BR>
<BR>
Tell me why tell me why tell me why<BR>
I don't like Wundays<BR>
I don't like Wundays<BR>
I don't like Wundays<BR>
I just want to shoooot<BR>
The whole day down.<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.<BR>
http://im.yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2000 12:44:57 -0400<BR>
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca><BR>
Subject: RE: TL disparities in the OTU<BR>
<BR>
Steven Ehrbar writes:<BR>
>> "It is hard to defend the disparity in TL between nearby worlds in the<BR>
>> OTU."<BR>
>Not really.  With just a week's travel today it's easy to go to a place on<BR>
>Earth where the highest technology items (except for the vehicle you came<BR>
>in) for a significant distance are late Victorian tech firearms, while the<BR>
>general level is medieval tech or earlier.  Since the minimum time distance<BR>
>in Trav between any two stars is a week, a TL difference the size of the<BR>
>current Silicon Valley-inner DR Congo difference isn't too hard to defend.<BR>
<BR>
	There is certainly a good arguement to made for that POV.  On the<BR>
	other hand, I had always assumed (perhaps unwisely) that the great<BR>
	majority of worlds occupied by humans were colonized from offworld,<BR>
	presumably using TL 9+ ships.  So my concept of low TL worlds is<BR>
	worlds that have not only remained at a low TL, but have regressed<BR>
	while their neighbours either maintained their TL or increased it<BR>
	(or regressed less, perhaps), possibly for a very long time.  It<BR>
	also depends on the definition of TL, and how much higher-tech<BR>
	mining equipment the GM is willing to allow on a low-tech world,<BR>
	for example.  But I do find your argument compelling.<BR>
<BR>
Peez<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 09:41:28 -0700<BR>
From: "Jesse LaBranche" <Vanquer@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re: New Madrid, etc.<BR>
<BR>
> > Also, the rock in the east transmit shock waves more efficiently,<BR>
> >  that means that damage due to an earthquake is more widespread.<BR>
> >  (I had heard the the last on had rung church bells in Boston,<BR>
> >  not Pitt.,  but I don't remember my source and it could<BR>
> >  have been inaccurate).<BR>
> >  __<BR>
<BR>
> If it rang bells in Boston, it rang them in Pittsburgh. The Pitt is<BR>
closer.<BR>
<BR>
    I realize this.  The person that my response was to had said Pitts. I<BR>
was stating that it was farther than that.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 17:52:01 +0100 <BR>
From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Supernova <BR>
<BR>
Glenn Goffin wrote:<BR>
> Tell me why tell me why tell me why<BR>
> I don't like Wundays<BR>
> I don't like Wundays<BR>
> I don't like Wundays<BR>
> I just want to shoooot<BR>
> The whole day down.<BR>
<BR>
Dulinor's song?<BR>
<BR>
Regards PLST<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 17:50:34 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: re: Gencon UK<BR>
<BR>
At 10:22 -0400 6/4/00, "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com> wrote:<BR>
>Just spotted on the web ...<BR>
><BR>
>Gencon UK will *not* be at Loughborogh this year!  Instead it  is<BR>
>now going to be held in the  Manchester  Convention  Center.  The<BR>
>reasons are at<BR>
><BR>
>http://rpga.ukonline.co.uk/genconuk00/why_move.htm<BR>
><BR>
>I am passing no comment about this.<BR>
<BR>
As previously announced by BITS ---- Dateline 27/3/2000<BR>
<BR>
>BITS - British Isles Traveller Support<BR>
>http://www.bits.org.uk/<BR>
><BR>
>For those who may have not picked up the information already<BR>
><BR>
>The dates and venue for Gen Con UK 2000 have now been confirmed.<BR>
><BR>
>DATE<BR>
>Thursday 31st August 2000 to Sunday 3rd September.<BR>
><BR>
>VENUE<BR>
>Manchester Conference Centre, Manchester University.<BR>
><BR>
>No further details were available at the time of posting.<BR>
><BR>
>(Thanks to Richard Talbot, our intrepid reporter. Save him a low <BR>
>berth on the last ship out.)<BR>
><BR>
>Dom<BR>
<BR>
- -------------Dom Mooney---webmaster@bits.org.uk----------------<BR>
                  BITS - British Isles Traveller Support.<BR>
  http://www.bits.org.uk/              mailto:bits@bits.org.uk<BR>
Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
GURPS is a registered trademark of Steve Jackson Games, Inc.<BR>
BITS and CORE are trademarks of BITS UK Limited.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 17:59:18 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Gencon UK<BR>
<BR>
At 11:43 -0400 6/4/00, "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com> wrote:<BR>
> >Gencon UK will *not* be at Loughborogh this year!  Instead it  is<BR>
> >now going to be held in the  Manchester  Convention  Center.  The<BR>
> >reasons are at<BR>
>And it is beginning to look like Penguin Boy might make it to the other<BR>
>side of the planet to attend and run some ACQ.<BR>
<BR>
Psst! Andy, do you reckon we'll have to introduce him to the ' <BR>
probably the chocolatiest biscuits in the world?' AKA Penguin <BR>
Biscuits?<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2000 10:08:29<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Gencon UK<BR>
<BR>
At 05:59 PM 4/6/2000 +0100, you wrote:<BR>
>At 11:43 -0400 6/4/00, "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>>And it is beginning to look like Penguin Boy might make it to the other<BR>
>>side of the planet to attend and run some ACQ.<BR>
><BR>
>Psst! Andy, do you reckon we'll have to introduce him to the ' <BR>
>probably the chocolatiest biscuits in the world?' AKA Penguin <BR>
>Biscuits?<BR>
<BR>
Well, I've already told Dom that all he has to do is throw me at a<BR>
reasonably decent museum or castle, leave and come back in a few days to<BR>
take me to the con.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 18:18:02 +0100<BR>
From: "Derrick Jones" <dojones.whitestar@btinternet.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller Bibliography: Was District 268 Canon<BR>
<BR>
The famous Mr Bond said...<BR>
>What? Even better than ACQ?<BR>
>Penguins (Adelie) at 10 paces, sirrah! <g><BR>
>Matt<BR>
<BR>
Given the fact that I have actually used the Bibliography, and haven't<BR>
yet used the ACQ rules (hopefully will be changed soon), the best thing<BR>
definition stands. I hope it can be corrected. But Tim's book will be very<BR>
hard to beat... <BR>
<BR>
Also, Matt, I would like your clarification.*.. I take it you are referring to<BR>
an old fashioned ranged projectile duel... How than would one use Adelie<BR>
penguins at a range of 10 paces? To quote from the Muscle Powered <BR>
Ranged Weapons table on p43 of Mr Berry's fine book, the Adelie Penguin<BR>
has a base range of Contact, so that's OK, and furthermore is a non-aerodynamic <BR>
object, so the range of 10 metres (paces) would not be halved.<BR>
<BR>
With a mass of 4.7 Kg, you would require a Strength of at least 9, (V Short<BR>
Range) which having met you, I could well assume. It would 15 AP to chuck<BR>
(3 AP per Kg or part thereof). Could we assume the penguin is resisting to <BR>
the point of medium recoil? 4AP. Any aiming would take 3APs per +1 Bonus.<BR>
So then that's 19AP + 3AP per point of Aim Bonus...<BR>
<BR>
Now then, how much military experience do you have? Tactics - 0 maybe?**<BR>
So if we assume you are Very Strong, Quite Fit***, Quite Dexterous and Very<BR>
Intelligent (you are an archaeologist, after all) - Say a UPP of B77Bxx, you<BR>
would have a APP of 19 ( 7 + 11 + 1 ) . Maybe you have Throwing -1?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Now then, you could just about fire an unaimed shot in the combat round, and<BR>
this would hit me on a throw of 10+ (MT Rules). So the likleyhood is you'll<BR>
either miss or only do 1 point of damage anyway....<BR>
<BR>
Pass me that penguin......Come here you varlet!<BR>
<BR>
Derrick<BR>
(That's quite easy, if I've got it right. Maybe Tims has a fight on his hands after all)<BR>
<BR>
* This is based soley on a loose quick reading of the rules, please correct<BR>
me if I'm wrong...<BR>
** I don't know, Matt, bear with me... No offense.<BR>
***Although after all that beer and chips in HB, maybe not so fit now!!! ;-)<BR>
<BR>
Derrick Jones<BR>
St Helens<BR>
Lancashire UK<BR>
http://www.btinternet.com/~dojones.whitestar<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 13:49:45 -0400<BR>
From: "J-Man" <j-man@iname.com><BR>
Subject: Re: L+ Megacorp (was RS)<BR>
<BR>
If I had $500.00 to spare, sure.  But right now Bankruptcy Court is calling<BR>
my name.  :)<BR>
___________________________________________________________<BR>
 J-Man<BR>
 ICQ# 2843475<BR>
 New Hampshire - U.S.A.<BR>
 Email : j-man@iname.com<BR>
 Home Page : http://www.gocsystems.com/<BR>
___________________________________________________________<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: "Garcia, Abel" <agarcia@US.RHODIA.COM><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Wednesday, April 05, 2000 6:05 PM<BR>
Subject: L+ Megacorp (was RS)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> TML,<BR>
><BR>
> This also probably has long been talked about, but here it goes anyway:<BR>
has<BR>
> the list considered getting 50+ people together with each contributing<BR>
$500<BR>
> to the effort and then approach RS with a serious offer?  Then this<BR>
"L-corp"<BR>
> would turn around and "allow" MM to reprint them as part of current<BR>
> "reprints" run for a modest license fee. Sure we wouldn't make our grand<BR>
> back but we each would get an autographed copy of each (hardbound;)<BR>
reprint!<BR>
> (Yes this is a serious question.)<BR>
><BR>
> Abel<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2000 19:43:32 +0200<BR>
From: Holger Kadlez <paradin@gmx.de><BR>
Subject: Re: Supernova (was re: stories in the printed copy of New Scientist  which relate toTraveller)<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
<BR>
<snip, of a long interesting explanation><BR>
<BR>
> Anyway, professional scientists made the "5 AU = lethal dose of<BR>
> neutrinos" back in 89. It's really true.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
OK, I don't have my books at hand. 1989, wasn't that the supernova in <BR>
the Magellan Cloud ?<BR>
If yes, that one was a special case, for it could actually be seen<BR>
(with telescopes, that is) *before* it went SN. AFAIK, it has been<BR>
something like a Ia O?, while (in the TU) Antares is a mere (in relative <BR>
terms) M1 Ib, with an  A0 D  companion.<BR>
That's by no way small, but not really close to a  Ia O?.<BR>
Allthough both early (O,B) and late (~M) giant and (especially)<BR>
supergiant stars have a *high* luminosity, only the early have a<BR>
really high mass (Most of the read giant-stars have masses < 10 mS)<BR>
<BR>
The star in the Magellan Cloud had a mass >> 10 mS, maybe even more<BR>
than 30 MS. There are not to many of them, even in a entire galaxy.<BR>
I should look it up this evening.<BR>
<BR>
Anthony writes about the same star in a later mail.<BR>
(RL jumped upon me quite cruelly, while innocently writing this mail ...)<BR>
<BR>
> Actually, I think that moderately recently they detected a supernova in a<BR>
> situation where they actually knew what the star had been before, and it was<BR>
> a blue giant.<BR>
<BR>
According to GT:FI, Antares, being a Ia M1, should has a luminosity of about<BR>
5e4 ~ 9e4, so its Lifezone would be somewhere at 200 AU - 300 AU, so the <BR>
neutrino-level is at 1/2500 of the lethal level. It will be even lower, as<BR>
Antares, being less massive, will produce a less (again, relative terms)<BR>
energetic supernova.<BR>
<BR>
According to canon, Antares is a binary system. I would expect the main world<BR>
to orbit the companion-star (orbiting the primary at about 300 AU), while being<BR>
heated by the primary.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Leonard in another post:<BR>
<BR>
> Oh yeah, since you get a white dwarf by having a star go supernova, the<BR>
> planets are gonna be in lousy shape anyway... but maybe the remnats<BR>
> have valuable minerals. :-)<BR>
<BR>
No, mostly not. Only when its final mass is below the Chandrasekhar-mass (sp?)<BR>
(approximately 1.4 mS), he can become a white dwarf. Anything with a higher<BR>
final mass will end up as either a neutron star [*] or, when especially massiv<BR>
as a Black Hole (The existance of those things has not yet been proven).<BR>
<BR>
Final mass is the mass a star has left, after being a red giant, blowing<BR>
quite a lot of its atmosphere away and eventually going supernova.<BR>
<BR>
Usually only massive stars can become a supernova. I don't know the exact<BR>
mass, but it is definitly more than 1 mS.  As most stars are less massive<BR>
than our sun, most will eventually become a white dwarf.<BR>
<BR>
[*] Pulsars are fast rotating neutron stars; As most young neutron star is<BR>
rotating<BR>
very fast, every one of them is a pulsar. They are slowed down, with time)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Leonard:<BR>
<BR>
> When dealing with supernovas, get used to mind numbing numbers. :-)<BR>
<BR>
Truelly.<BR>
	;)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Tschau,<BR>
	Paradin<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
PS:<BR>
Please ignore any typos, I have no english spell-checker<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 22:28:05 -0700<BR>
From: "James W. Lindsay" <jlindsay@home.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller is the #1 RPG, but only barely...<BR>
<BR>
On Sun, 02 Apr 2000 10:20:27 -0700, James W. Lindsay wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> <BR>
> I think it is time for another round of mass voting to keep our favourite<BR>
> well out in front.  The good news is that GURPS is currently second, and<BR>
> that yucky Warhammer FRP has been knocked down to fifth :)<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> http://www.freevote.com/booth/best_rpg<BR>
<BR>
Doh!  We've fallen to #2!  Oh, the shame! :)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
James W. Lindsay             Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada<BR>
Website: http://members.home.net/jlindsay          ICQ: #7521644<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
Have it OUR way. Yours is IRRELEVANT. At BORGerKing.<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 18:25:18 +0100<BR>
From: "Nick Bradbeer" <nickb@ndirect.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: FF&S2: Universal grapples question<BR>
<BR>
>Can universal grapples carry more than one craft at once, as long as the<BR>
>combined craft sizes are less than the maximum size of the grapples?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Dunno about FFS2, but under FFS1 this was a no. The only real explanation of<BR>
grapples occurs outside of FFS, in the description of the RC Clippers. You<BR>
can hang a fifty-ton module on a fifty-ton grapple, or you can hang a<BR>
twenty-five ton module with a built-in grapple in the same place, then<BR>
grapple a secong twenty-five ton module onto the first module's grapples.<BR>
You specifically cannot hang two twenty five ton modules off the one<BR>
grapple.<BR>
<BR>
You could also only get from the ship to the second module by walking<BR>
through the first one.<BR>
<BR>
Of course, this may have changed.<BR>
<BR>
Nick<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 18:50:19 +0100<BR>
From: "Nick Bradbeer" <nickb@ndirect.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: Famile Spofulam Hi-Sensitivity Scout<BR>
<BR>
>> We calculate it can detect a J class racing yacht at seven parsecs.<BR>
><BR>
>If you *care* about what was going on 22.8 years ago (that being the<BR>
>time it takes a light speed signal to croos 7 parsecs).<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Think of the implications for law enforcement!<BR>
<BR>
Essentially, every incident in known space has been recorded for posterity<BR>
via the handy medium of c-lag. So this investigation hinges on which ship<BR>
actually fired first, in that ugly incident six months ago? Have the Justice<BR>
Department deploy a FS 'Eyewitness' Class Scout to a point seven<BR>
light-months away and watch the incident really really carefully. I mean, at<BR>
a mere 5.6 quadrillion kilometres (5.6x10^15 metres, a mere sixth of a<BR>
parsec) it ought to be able to read the serial numbers off hull plates.<BR>
<BR>
NB<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 18:59:17 +0100<BR>
From: "Nick Bradbeer" <nickb@ndirect.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: Gencon UK<BR>
<BR>
>>And it is beginning to look like Penguin Boy might make it to the other<BR>
>>side of the planet to attend and run some ACQ.<BR>
><BR>
>Psst! Andy, do you reckon we'll have to introduce him to the '<BR>
>probably the chocolatiest biscuits in the world?' AKA Penguin<BR>
>Biscuits?<BR>
><BR>
>Dom<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Yay! MAG BLAST!<BR>
<BR>
Nick<BR>
+++<BR>
P.S. - Did those FT:Traveller rules ever get finished?<BR>
P.P.S. - Do you guys on BITS want help with anything? <Nick breaks the<BR>
'never volunteer' law...><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2000 11:02:29 -0700<BR>
From: Jesse DeGraff <jdegraff@pacbell.net><BR>
Subject: RE: L+ Megacorp (was RS)<BR>
<BR>
J-Man,<BR>
OUCH!!  Sorry to hear that dude.  A good friend of mine had to declare<BR>
bankruptcy and it was no fun, though he did luck out as far as payment<BR>
schedules when he went to court, but that's a long story :)<BR>
<BR>
Anyway, the first thing I'd do if I ever won the lottery (or otherwise<BR>
became "rich"), after running around whooping for joy and rolling in the<BR>
money from cashing the first payment check, etc., would be to buy every<BR>
single scrap of everything off of the Nameless One.  Once the paperwork was<BR>
finished, I'd flip him off saying "F#@% You very much", then give everything<BR>
to Marc for the grand sum of $1.00.  Then if there were any writers or<BR>
artists (gotta' take care of my own :) that hadn't been paid for DGP<BR>
properties, I'd pay them what they're owed plus 400%.<BR>
<BR>
<<sigh>>  I can dream can't I?<BR>
<BR>
Best,<BR>
Jesse<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of J-Man<BR>
> Sent: Thursday, April 06, 2000 10:50 AM<BR>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> Subject: Re: L+ Megacorp (was RS)<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> If I had $500.00 to spare, sure.  But right now Bankruptcy Court<BR>
> is calling<BR>
> my name.  :)<BR>
> ___________________________________________________________<BR>
>  J-Man<BR>
>  ICQ# 2843475<BR>
>  New Hampshire - U.S.A.<BR>
>  Email : j-man@iname.com<BR>
>  Home Page : http://www.gocsystems.com/<BR>
> ___________________________________________________________<BR>
><BR>
> ----- Original Message -----<BR>
> From: "Garcia, Abel" <agarcia@US.RHODIA.COM><BR>
> To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
> Sent: Wednesday, April 05, 2000 6:05 PM<BR>
> Subject: L+ Megacorp (was RS)<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> > TML,<BR>
> ><BR>
> > This also probably has long been talked about, but here it goes anyway:<BR>
> has<BR>
> > the list considered getting 50+ people together with each contributing<BR>
> $500<BR>
> > to the effort and then approach RS with a serious offer?  Then this<BR>
> "L-corp"<BR>
> > would turn around and "allow" MM to reprint them as part of current<BR>
> > "reprints" run for a modest license fee. Sure we wouldn't make our grand<BR>
> > back but we each would get an autographed copy of each (hardbound;)<BR>
> reprint!<BR>
> > (Yes this is a serious question.)<BR>
> ><BR>
> > Abel<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 13:28:12 -0500<BR>
From: ehenry@newberlin.org (Eric Henry)<BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller is the #1 RPG, but only barely...<BR>
<BR>
well i did my five votes part ;)<BR>
<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller is the #1 RPG, but only barely...<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>On Sun, 02 Apr 2000 10:20:27 -0700, James W. Lindsay wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>><BR>
>> I think it is time for another round of mass voting to keep our favourite<BR>
>> well out in front.  The good news is that GURPS is currently second, and<BR>
>> that yucky Warhammer FRP has been knocked down to fifth :)<BR>
>><BR>
>><BR>
>> http://www.freevote.com/booth/best_rpg<BR>
><BR>
>Doh!  We've fallen to #2!  Oh, the shame! :)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2000 10:20:54 -0800<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Astronomy in the 57th Century<BR>
<BR>
Kristian Miller <travellerne@3rd-imperium.com> wrote<BR>
<BR>
> I remember that some of the published lab ship deck plans and the RAFM<BR>
> lab ship miniatures had the "down" direction of the decks facing<BR>
> inward.  Of course you can't spin that ship; but, IMTU the decks are<BR>
> flipped so you can.<BR>
<BR>
Or, as was once explained by David Gerrold:<BR>
<BR>
Character #1: "Unlike on the space station you live on<BR>
on a planet gravity pulls you in towards the center.<BR>
Character #2 "That doesn't make any sense."<BR>
Charecter #1 "The planet spins in the opposite direction<BR>
that the ship does."<BR>
Charecter #2 "Oh, that makes sense."<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2000 10:28:46 -0800<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Astronomy in the 57th Century<BR>
<BR>
Lewis Roberts <lewis@mauigateway.net> wrote<BR>
> Subject: Re:<BR>
> <BR>
> Peter Newman wrote:<BR>
> >I think that these observatories would be clustered in the<BR>
> >frontier sectors because they are closer to the phenomena<BR>
> >being observed. Anything you can observe by telescope from <BR>
> >Capital could have been observed centuries before at the<BR>
> >frontiers. As a usefully _approximation_ light will travel<BR>
> >through one sector per century (104 years) sideways, one <BR>
> >sector per 130 years vertically, and one sector every 165<BR>
> >years diagonally.<BR>
> <BR>
> What's a few hundred years when the light has been travelling several billion<BR>
> years.  Light from the galactic core will still be over 25,000 years old.<BR>
<BR>
Whoever is closest to the phenomenon gets to see it first.<BR>
This means that they can _publish_ first. Therefore IMTU<BR>
most astronomers cluster around the edges of the Imperium,<BR>
if not beyond it, so that they can publish first. As the<BR>
astronomers get older, published, and more respected they<BR>
get tenure and are more likely to live at the Imperial fringes<BR>
rather than beyond them.<BR>
<BR>
> This does raise another issue.  If a one time event occured <BR>
> in Imperial space, you can observe it once and then jump to <BR>
> another spot slightly farther away and see it again. Of course <BR>
> the closer you are the better, but this way you could observe <BR>
> something, make an hypothesis and then go look at it again to <BR>
> check your hypothesis.   <BR>
<BR>
Think like a Vilani.<BR>
<BR>
Why do you want to have a hypothesis? Progress is bad. Why <BR>
would you want to make observations that might result in <BR>
new theory? The new theory might upset the social order.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2000 11:02:27 -0800<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Astronomy in the 57th Century<BR>
<BR>
shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) wrote<BR>
<BR>
> > We could take a subsidized merchant & fill its whole cargo<BR>
> > hold full of batteries. Then we run the whole observatory<BR>
> > (and the subbie itself) off of the batteries. When it runs dry<BR>
> > we switch to the next subbie. We simply have new "battery ships"<BR>
> > jump in at appropriate intervals.<BR>
> ><BR>
> > Alternatively we could run the station off of batteries<BR>
> > and periodically recharge them by turning on the stations<BR>
> > fusion plant once a month or so but I suspect that this<BR>
> > would interfere with long term observations.<BR>
> <BR>
> Use fuel cells. Just ship out "tankers" loaded with LOX and LH2. The<BR>
> unneeded water can be shipped back.<BR>
<BR>
Fuel cells are a good idea but in Traveller batteries have <BR>
a higher energy density than fuel cells, especially considering <BR>
fuel needs, which is why I picked batteries.<BR>
<BR>
A fuel cell produces 0.5 MW per m^3 at TL 7, 0.75 at TL<BR>
12, 1.5 at TL 14, and 1.75 at TL 16. They use 0.3 kl/hour/MW<BR>
of fuel at Tl 7, 0.25 at TL 12, and 0.2 at TL 14+<BR>
Therefore a 15 MW fuel cell and 1000 hours (42 days) fuel <BR>
at TL 14 will need 2,000 kl (143 displacement tons) of fuel.<BR>
The fuel cell itself will take up 10 kl. At TL 12 the<BR>
fuel cell needs 5,000 kl fuel & occupies 20 kl itself.<BR>
(A total volume of 359 tons)<BR>
<BR>
Batteries at TL 14 store 2.5 MW per m^3. To get a 1,000<BR>
hour duration on the battery we multiply output x 0.004.<BR>
Therefore to get 15 MW/hour for 1,000 hours we need a 3,750<BR>
MW battery. This battery will take up 1,500 kl (107 displacement<BR>
tons). At TL 12 it takes up 2,500 kl (179 tons).<BR>
<BR>
Therefore, at least at TL 12-15, the batteries are a better <BR>
use of space albeit a more expensive one.<BR>
<BR>
> > I think that these observatories would be clustered in the<BR>
> > frontier sectors because they are closer to the phenomena<BR>
> > being observed. Anything you can observe by telescope from <BR>
> > Capital could have been observed centuries before at the<BR>
> > frontiers. <BR>
<BR>
> Sure, but you'll want observatories scattered throughout the Imperium<BR>
> because that way you can get several *centuries* of observatyions of<BR>
> the same star, thanks to light lag. <BR>
<BR>
Oh sure you will. I am simply saying that the Universities<BR>
that see the event first will have it studied to death before <BR>
the universities in the Core even see it. If you are an Astronomy<BR>
grad student looking to do new work why would you want to <BR>
attend the University of Sylea (Capitol/Core) where all you<BR>
can examine was seen centuries before by others. You might<BR>
very well be able to combine data gathered elsewhere & do a<BR>
brilliant synthesis but you will have less opportunity to do<BR>
new work. Now given Vilani influences on Imperial culture<BR>
this may or may not be important in your TU. but in my TU.<BR>
astronomers are still interested in new stuff.<BR>
<BR>
> On the other hand, the frontiers aren't all *that* much closer to many<BR>
> interesting phenomena. We're talking a distance difference of less than<BR>
> 1% for most of the galaxy.  <BR>
<BR>
I understand all this, the point of being at the edges of the<BR>
Imperium is not to be closer so you can see things better<BR>
it is to be closer so you can see them first and therefore<BR>
_publish_ first.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2261<BR>
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Traveller-digest      Thursday, April 6 2000      Volume 1999 : Number 2262<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Supernova (was re: stories in the printed copy of New Scientist w hich relate toTraveller)<BR>
Re: Warrant of the Restoration<BR>
Re: Astronomy in the 57th Century<BR>
Re: SPI's "Outreach," and the Zho Core Missions<BR>
Re: Warrant of the Restoration<BR>
Re: Warrant of the Restoration<BR>
Re: Astronomy in the 57th Century<BR>
Re: Astronomy in the 57th Century<BR>
Re: Astronomy in the 57th Century<BR>
Re: Gencon UK<BR>
RE: Supernova <BR>
Re: Traveller is the #1 RPG, but only barely...<BR>
Re: Gencon UK<BR>
Re: Gencon UK<BR>
Re: Supernova<BR>
Mire Run (was Re: Ship sizes and shapes)<BR>
RE: Supernova <BR>
Re: Warrant of the Restoration<BR>
Re: Warrant of the Restoration<BR>
The Forine Assembly<BR>
RE: The Imperium and the 20th Century - Perfect together?<BR>
Re: Notes on building Heya<BR>
Re: what is tech level?<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 10:58:43 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Supernova (was re: stories in the printed copy of New Scientist w hich relate toTraveller)<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Leonard Erickson writes:<BR>
><BR>
>> Just a note for anyone wanting to try this. Pre-supernova stars are red<BR>
>> giants[1]. Bruce may be able to give the required size code for a type M<BR>
>> star to be a potential supernova.<BR>
><BR>
> Actually, I think that moderately recently they detected a supernova in a<BR>
> situation where they actually knew what the star had been before, and it was<BR>
> a blue giant.<BR>
<BR>
Well, since they aren't going to have much in the way of useful planets<BR>
*and* since they can't be rolled on the star generation table... :-)<BR>
<BR>
>> Oh yeah, since you get a white dwarf by having a star go supernova, the<BR>
>> planets are gonna be in lousy shape anyway... but maybe the remnats<BR>
>> have valuable minerals. :-)<BR>
><BR>
> Actually, I don't think a supernova is required for a white dwarf.<BR>
<BR>
Ok, you may have a point there. But the way the star goes from main<BR>
sequence to white dwarf is *still* not good for anything else in the<BR>
system. :-)<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 11:07:11 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Warrant of the Restoration<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Nice job on the Imperial law web site :)<BR>
><BR>
> <--- From a fellow lawyer :)<BR>
><BR>
> I was asked during a game once if IISS members could claims rights of <BR>
> salvage <BR>
> and I winged it and said no...I checked a treatise on the law of admirality <BR>
> at a library here in the US and I was right...No salvage for members of the <BR>
> military<BR>
<BR>
Who says the IISS is miltary? They are considerably *less* miltary than<BR>
(for example) the Coast Guard. Nearest analogue I can think of is<BR>
something like the Forestry Service, and the US Geologcal Survey (or<BR>
the Coast and Geodetic Survey people). <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 11:12:22 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Astronomy in the 57th Century<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Lewis Roberts wrote:<BR>
>> <BR>
> <<snip>><BR>
>> <BR>
>> The biggest problem with the neutrino telescope is figuring out how to <BR>
> shield it<BR>
>> from the fusion power planet powering the observatory.  The observatory <BR>
> will be<BR>
>> too far from any star for solar power to work.  The astronomers will know <BR>
> where<BR>
>> the fusion power plant is and will be able to remove it from the image.<BR>
><BR>
> Does anyone know what the neutrino flux (if any) would be for a fission<BR>
> plant?<BR>
<BR>
As bad if not worse. I think fission produces the opposite sort of<BR>
neutrinos that fusion does (ie one produces neutrinos, the other<BR>
produces anti-neutrinos). But I'm not certain enough to be willing to<BR>
bet on it.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 11:19:13 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: SPI's "Outreach," and the Zho Core Missions<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> In a message dated 4/3/00 9:30:30 AM Central Daylight Time, Leonard Erickson <BR>
> writes:<BR>
><BR>
>> Just for reference, I've got the old SPI game Outreach. The map covers<BR>
>>  about 2/3rds of the galaxy. The *entire* "known space" map won't fill<BR>
>>  one *hex* on that map. Matter of fact, it won't even come *close* (the<BR>
>>  hexes are about 400 parsecs across!)<BR>
>>  <BR>
>>  On *that* scale, we can't visit much of anything useful, even with<BR>
>>  Traveller tech. A galaxy is a *big* place. <BR>
><BR>
> Might one be able to simulate the Zhodani Core missions (at least their <BR>
> basic route) with this game? Is the map set up for clusters of stars or <BR>
> 'important' individual stars?<BR>
<BR>
The *game* is a high level "strategic" game. The players are trying to<BR>
civilize the galaxy... Not only are the hexes 1200 light years across,<BR>
but (according to one reference in an SPI ad) the *turns* are 200<BR>
*years*. <BR>
<BR>
Here's the "terrain key" from the map (ie the different hex types) more<BR>
or less in order from least dense to most dense:<BR>
<BR>
Inter-Spiral Space<BR>
Spiral Fringe Space<BR>
Spiral Axis Space<BR>
Galactic Nucleus<BR>
Galactic Core	(you get "artifacts" aka special goodies if you get<BR>
		that far) <BR>
<BR>
Plus you have "Beacon Stars" in some hexes (they are used for<BR>
navigation) and some hex-sides are "Dust Clouds" which inhibit<BR>
observing anything on the other side.<BR>
<BR>
I have thought that by defining some intermediate hex size between 1<BR>
parsec and 400 parsecs, you could use it as a sort of "grand strategic"<BR>
level map with Traveller. <BR>
<BR>
Let's see. A sector is about 32x40 parsecs.<BR>
1200 LY/32 pc = 11.5<BR>
1200 LY/40 pc = 9.2<BR>
<BR>
So about 12 X 9 "sectors" to the "grand hex"<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2000 15:29:24 -0400<BR>
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Warrant of the Restoration<BR>
<BR>
Qstor@aol.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Nice job on the Imperial law web site :)<BR>
><BR>
> <--- From a fellow lawyer :)<BR>
<BR>
thanks.<BR>
<BR>
> I was asked during a game once if IISS members could claims rights of salvage<BR>
> and I winged it and said no...I checked a treatise on the law of admirality<BR>
> at a library here in the US and I was right...No salvage for members of the<BR>
> military<BR>
<BR>
Hmm . . . Give some pocket empire navy salvage rights . . .<BR>
Don't be too particular about sophont rights . . . that might<BR>
lead to  . . . oh, I don't know . . . could it be . . . wait . . .<BR>
its coming to me . . . might it not  . . . possibly it could . . .<BR>
lead to . . . PIRATES!!!<BR>
<BR>
;-)<BR>
<BR>
bloo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 15:25:10 EDT<BR>
From: WriteFool@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Warrant of the Restoration<BR>
<BR>
It's not piracy, it's "pre-salvage operations"!<BR>
<BR>
:)<BR>
<BR>
Michael Breen<BR>
"But your honor, the crew of the Beowulf insisted on heading right out that <BR>
airlock...who am I to stop them?"<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 4/6/00 2:22:40 PM Central Daylight Time, <BR>
stevedaniels@portcaddo.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<< > I was asked during a game once if IISS members could claims rights of <BR>
salvage<BR>
 > and I winged it and said no...I checked a treatise on the law of admirality<BR>
 > at a library here in the US and I was right...No salvage for members of the<BR>
 > military<BR>
 <BR>
 Hmm . . . Give some pocket empire navy salvage rights . . .<BR>
 Don't be too particular about sophont rights . . . that might<BR>
 lead to  . . . oh, I don't know . . . could it be . . . wait . . .<BR>
 its coming to me . . . might it not  . . . possibly it could . . .<BR>
 lead to . . . PIRATES!!! >><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 12:31:19 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Astronomy in the 57th Century<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erickson writes:<BR>
<BR>
> As bad if not worse. I think fission produces the opposite sort of<BR>
> neutrinos that fusion does (ie one produces neutrinos, the other<BR>
> produces anti-neutrinos). But I'm not certain enough to be willing to<BR>
> bet on it.<BR>
<BR>
An RTG which uses an alpha-only decay sequence won't produce any neutrinos.<BR>
Pu-238 decays to U-234, which has something like 10^6 times the half-life,<BR>
so that's a fairly substantial reduction in neutrino emissions.  Pu-240<BR>
decays to U-236 and Th-232, for an even larger reduction in neutrinos<BR>
(both eventually produce some beta).<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 12:39:00 -0700<BR>
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Astronomy in the 57th Century<BR>
<BR>
>They will probably<BR>
>be playing around with probes that are sent into the star itself. <BR>
>These probes<BR>
>won't survive, but they will be able to send back some information before they<BR>
>melt.<BR>
<BR>
I doubt they would melt.  Given how cheap thrust is in Traveller,<BR>
if the probe can send data it can push itself out.  Unless they<BR>
are so much cheaper as to be "disposable" they will be built to<BR>
come back.<BR>
<BR>
______________________________<BR>
summers@alum.mit.edu<BR>
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 12:42:23 -0700<BR>
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Astronomy in the 57th Century<BR>
<BR>
>IMTU the Zhodani have good astronomers, the Vargr<BR>
>are not really interested in astronomy (lack of patience,<BR>
>little opportunity for Charisma gain)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Who says the Vargr don't have patience?  (Human propaganda! :-)<BR>
<BR>
I think they would have astronomy, but it would be more geared<BR>
toward what could make a splash in the popular media with less<BR>
emphasis on work that will never be appreciated except by a few<BR>
specialists.<BR>
<BR>
______________________________<BR>
summers@alum.mit.edu<BR>
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 21:20:19 +0100<BR>
From: "Derrick Jones" <dojones.whitestar@btinternet.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Gencon UK<BR>
<BR>
Dom Mooney wrote:<BR>
>Psst! Andy, do you reckon we'll have to introduce him to the ' <BR>
>probably the chocolatiest biscuits in the world?' AKA Penguin <BR>
>Biscuits?<BR>
<BR>
>Dom<BR>
<BR>
Just keep the green one for me, Dom. Don't ask why, it's a long<BR>
story, but I can only eat the green ones.....<BR>
<BR>
Doug Berry wrote:<BR>
>Well, I've already told Dom that all he has to do is throw me at a<BR>
>reasonably decent museum or castle, leave and come back in a few days to<BR>
>take me to the con.<BR>
<BR>
Well, I think you should go to Wales, Doug. But I would say that, wouldn't I?<BR>
<BR>
I know you're a 49ers fan, Doug, but if you wanted to I could organise you a<BR>
ticket for a Rugby League match while you're over here. See how real men<BR>
play, without pads!!! I'm certain you would be shown some hospitality by some<BR>
of us northern lacals....<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Derrick<BR>
<BR>
Derrick Jones<BR>
St Helens<BR>
Lancashire UK<BR>
http://www.btinternet.com/~dojones.whitestar<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 13:36:26 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Supernova <BR>
<BR>
>From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com><BR>
>Subject: RE: Supernova <BR>
>Glenn Goffin wrote:<BR>
>> Tell me why tell me why tell me why<BR>
>> I don't like Wundays<BR>
>> I don't like Wundays<BR>
>> I don't like Wundays<BR>
>> I just want to shoooot<BR>
>> The whole day down.<BR>
><BR>
>Dulinor's song?<BR>
<BR>
Good idea.  We could do a filk of the song I'm thinking along<BR>
those lines.  (The song I'm thinking of is by Cheap Trick, I<BR>
think, and it goes, "I don't like Mondays."  It concerns a true<BR>
story in California in the 1970s, as I recall, about a girl who<BR>
was upset one Monday and came to school and shot a bunch of<BR>
classmates.)<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.<BR>
http://im.yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 13:41:36 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller is the #1 RPG, but only barely...<BR>
<BR>
>From: "James W. Lindsay" <jlindsay@home.com><BR>
>Subject: Re: Traveller is the #1 RPG, but only barely...<BR>
<BR>
>> http://www.freevote.com/booth/best_rpg<BR>
>Doh!  We've fallen to #2!  Oh, the shame! :)<BR>
<BR>
and now we have to _register_ to vote, and can only vote once<BR>
per day (per email address, anyway).  Let's see ... I should<BR>
still be able to vote three times per day.<BR>
<BR>
Let's get on it, people!  For Iridium Throne and Glory!<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.<BR>
http://im.yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 21:00:33 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Gencon UK<BR>
<BR>
At 15:03 -0400 6/4/00, "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com> wrote:<BR>
> >Psst! Andy, do you reckon we'll have to introduce him to the '<BR>
> >probably the chocolatiest biscuits in the world?' AKA Penguin<BR>
> >Biscuits?<BR>
><BR>
>Well, I've already told Dom that all he has to do is throw me at a<BR>
>reasonably decent museum or castle, leave and come back in a few days to<BR>
>take me to the con.<BR>
<BR>
Sorted ;-)<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
Who has just realised that his company offices are over half the age <BR>
of the USA....<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 21:05:18 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Gencon UK<BR>
<BR>
At 15:03 -0400 6/4/00, "Nick Bradbeer" <nickb@ndirect.co.uk> wrote:<BR>
> >>And it is beginning to look like Penguin Boy might make it to the other<BR>
> >>side of the planet to attend and run some ACQ.<BR>
> >Psst! Andy, do you reckon we'll have to introduce him to the '<BR>
> >probably the chocolatiest biscuits in the world?' AKA Penguin<BR>
> >Biscuits?<BR>
><BR>
>Yay! MAG BLAST!<BR>
<BR>
Absolutely! Did you get a copy? Apparently there are two expansions planned....<BR>
<BR>
>P.S. - Did those FT:Traveller rules ever get finished?<BR>
<BR>
There are copies of the last draft and the follow up spinal rules in <BR>
the archive of<BR>
<BR>
Traveller Full Thrust mailing list at eGroups/onelist<BR>
Community email addresses:<BR>
   Post message: Traveller_FullThrust@onelist.com<BR>
   Subscribe:    Traveller_FullThrust-subscribe@onelist.com<BR>
   Unsubscribe:  Traveller_FullThrust-unsubscribe@onelist.com<BR>
   List owner:   Traveller_FullThrust-owner@onelist.com<BR>
<BR>
Shortcut URL to this page:<BR>
   http://www.onelist.com/community/Traveller_FullThrust<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>P.P.S. - Do you guys on BITS want help with anything? <Nick breaks the<BR>
>'never volunteer' law...><BR>
<BR>
Almost certainly. Let's talk off list...<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2000 14:20:13 -0700<BR>
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Supernova<BR>
<BR>
Glenn Goffin wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> >From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com><BR>
> >Subject: RE: Supernova<BR>
> >Glenn Goffin wrote:<BR>
> >> Tell me why tell me why tell me why<BR>
> >> I don't like Wundays<BR>
> >> I don't like Wundays<BR>
> >> I don't like Wundays<BR>
> >> I just want to shoooot<BR>
> >> The whole day down.<BR>
> ><BR>
> >Dulinor's song?<BR>
> <BR>
> Good idea.  We could do a filk of the song I'm thinking along<BR>
> those lines.  (The song I'm thinking of is by Cheap Trick, I<BR>
> think, and it goes, "I don't like Mondays."  It concerns a true<BR>
> story in California in the 1970s, as I recall, about a girl who<BR>
> was upset one Monday and came to school and shot a bunch of<BR>
> classmates.)<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
Not Cheap Trick, but Bob Geldorf's band: Boomtown Rats<BR>
- -- <BR>
Bruce Johnson<BR>
University of Arizona<BR>
College of Pharmacy<BR>
Information Technology Group<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2000 18:02:35 -0400<BR>
From: Jeff Zeitlin <jzeitlin@cyburban.com><BR>
Subject: Mire Run (was Re: Ship sizes and shapes)<BR>
<BR>
On Wed, 5 Apr 2000 04:16:26 -0400 (EDT), "Katharine Whitchurch"<BR>
<katts@globalfreeway.com.au> (really Ian) wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>BTW, you owe me 3 NPCs (written up for G:T is OK) for people likely to be<BR>
>travelling from Glisten to Mire in Darrian space. This is for the Mire Run,<BR>
>a scenario that I posted recently (which I can re-send to people on<BR>
>request).<BR>
<BR>
Please do, to jzeitlin@cyburban.com and/or<BR>
freelancetraveller@yahoo.com - and if you do it before this<BR>
weekend, it goes into the next update of Freelance Traveller.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
Jeff Zeitlin<BR>
jzeitlin@cyburban.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 17:55:35 -0400<BR>
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net><BR>
Subject: RE: Supernova <BR>
<BR>
Glenn Goffin said:<BR>
<BR>
>Good idea.  We could do a filk of the song I'm thinking along<BR>
>those lines.  (The song I'm thinking of is by Cheap Trick, I<BR>
>think, and it goes, "I don't like Mondays."  It concerns a true<BR>
>story in California in the 1970s, as I recall, about a girl who<BR>
>was upset one Monday and came to school and shot a bunch of<BR>
>classmates.)<BR>
<BR>
Just a little off. It wasn't Cheap Trick, it was by The Boomtown Rats. When<BR>
Brenda Spencer, the girl who shot her classmates, was asked why she did it,<BR>
she simply responded, "I don't like Mondays."<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2000 18:22:25 -0400<BR>
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Warrant of the Restoration<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Who says the IISS is miltary? They are considerably *less* miltary than<BR>
> (for example) the Coast Guard. Nearest analogue I can think of is<BR>
> something like the Forestry Service, and the US Geologcal Survey (or<BR>
> the Coast and Geodetic Survey people).<BR>
<BR>
With guns.  And starships, with weapons.<BR>
<BR>
bloo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 15:21:14 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Warrant of the Restoration<BR>
<BR>
Steve Daniels writes:<BR>
><BR>
> Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> > Who says the IISS is miltary? They are considerably *less* miltary than<BR>
> > (for example) the Coast Guard. Nearest analogue I can think of is<BR>
> > something like the Forestry Service, and the US Geologcal Survey (or<BR>
> > the Coast and Geodetic Survey people).<BR>
> <BR>
> With guns.  And starships, with weapons.<BR>
<BR>
The coast guard has guns and armed ships.  Its actually probably a decent<BR>
analog to the IISS.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 17:23:51 -0500<BR>
From: tim@premier.net<BR>
Subject: The Forine Assembly<BR>
<BR>
After much consideration I have made a decision to through my hat <BR>
into the land grap.  For my choice I choice the worlds of the Forine <BR>
Assembly Forine and Elixabeth.  <BR>
<BR>
If anybody can send me more info then what is in GURPS please <BR>
do.  <BR>
<BR>
Thanks<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Tim Reynolds<BR>
tim@premier.net <BR>
225-334-5063<BR>
- ------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
Getting an education was a bit like a communicable <BR>
sexual disease.  It made you unsuitable for <BR>
a lot of jobs and then you had the urge to pass it on.<BR>
<BR>
Terry Pratchett <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 16:24:30 -0600 <BR>
From: Jason Postma <JasonP@i-link.net><BR>
Subject: RE: The Imperium and the 20th Century - Perfect together?<BR>
<BR>
I'm going to have to power up the chainsaw again, here.  You have a tendancy<BR>
towards long posts, Chris. :)<BR>
<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
From: Chris Seamans [mailto:semo@pil.net]<BR>
		So, now here goes my account of the west in the 20th<BR>
century, focusing<BR>
specifically on America:<BR>
<BR>
	People have written at great length concerning the peculiar notion<BR>
of<BR>
freedom that the West has. Various thinkers have tried to trace the roots of<BR>
this odd notion, especially since it cuts to the core of society. The notion<BR>
of freedom has three parts, and these individual parts, when combined with<BR>
other distinctive elements, create some pretty bizarre ideas that don't<BR>
generally appear in other cultures.<BR>
<BR>
	One part is the idea that individuals are vested with some degree of<BR>
individual freedom. For the most part, people in the West think that they<BR>
should be allowed to do what they want as long as they don't hurt anybody<BR>
else. There are some pecularities to this notion which I will touch upon in<BR>
a little bit. <<BR>
<BR>
Third Imperium similarity: individual planets are vested with some degree of<BR>
individual freedom.  They are allowed to do pretty much what they want to<BR>
even if they do hurt others a bit, as long as they don't hurt a lot of<BR>
others (which is when the Imperium calls it disruptive to trade and<BR>
interferes).  This concept of individual freedom on a planetary level is<BR>
integral to the Third Imperium (and is mentioned in the Warrant of the<BR>
Restoration).<BR>
<BR>
>The second is sovereignal freedom, which is the notion that<BR>
one should have the right to impress upon others how they should live, to<BR>
tell others what they should do.<<BR>
<BR>
Third Imperium similarity:  Individual planets are also under the direction<BR>
of the Imperial nobility with respect to their dealings with other member<BR>
worlds and external states, as well as accepting certain imperial laws such<BR>
as those against slavery and for taxation.<BR>
 <BR>
> Finally, there's the notion of civic freedom, which is the belief that<BR>
people should<BR>
have a right to participate in the process of government, that, in a very<BR>
real sense, the government and the governed are one in the same.<<BR>
<BR>
Third Imperium similarity: Each individual world has the right to chose its<BR>
own form of government, and has total authority over it's world except for<BR>
the imperial ground around the starport, within the extrality line.  The<BR>
Imperium cannot interfere in local government unless Imperial laws are<BR>
broken.<BR>
<BR>
>Another characteristic of late 20th century western culture, frequently<BR>
commented on, is the idea that everything can be classified and simplified,<BR>
and that, to some degree, scientific methods can be applied to any problem.<<BR>
<BR>
Third Imperium similarities: The Grand Survey attempts to classify and<BR>
simplify the description of 11,000 individual worlds into simple, 8-digit<BR>
codes.<BR>
<BR>
>In America, technological progress is believed to be the ultimate problem<BR>
solver: no problem can exist that the application of the appropriate<BR>
technology can't solve.<<BR>
<BR>
Third Imperium similarity: The longbow project.  So we can't see what the<BR>
Zho's are finding on their core expeditions?  Let's create the galaxy's<BR>
largest synthetic apeture project ever and find out. <BR>
The 3I also has research stations dotted throughout known space, all of<BR>
which are engaged in cutting edge research.<BR>
<BR>
>The strong equation of romantic love and lust with other sorts of human<BR>
relationships dominates in the west in the late 20th century. I don't know<BR>
if I can stress this point strongly enough. This tends to devalue other<BR>
sorts of relationships. A strong sense of duty to one's mother, for example,<BR>
is not healthy and good, but a mental illness based in a sexual desire for<BR>
her... and so on.<<BR>
<BR>
Romantic love has appeared in a few Traveller adventures and TNS bulletins,<BR>
but it's place in the Imperium as a whole has not been discussed, so I would<BR>
say there's no evidence either way on this one.<BR>
<BR>
>Perhaps most importantly, there's the peculiar notion that, in some<BR>
fashion, these other elements are all part of "human nature". I'm not saying<BR>
that this notion is peculiar because I don't believe in it, but because it's<BR>
not something that many cultures have professed a belief in. We believe it's<BR>
natural to want personal freedom, and find it odd when the Chinese don't<BR>
flock to the notion of personal freedom, and so on.<<BR>
<BR>
I'm not sure if this is an aspect unique to 20th century American culture.<BR>
I recognize it's present, but pretty much every culture out there believes<BR>
that the way they do things is the correct way (why would they be doing it<BR>
otherwise?), and many believed that it was the proper way because humans had<BR>
been created that way.  Feudal Japan, for example, where every person had<BR>
his place and was thwarting nature if he went outside of it, because it was<BR>
part of his nature to be in that place in society.<BR>
<BR>
<Now, for one problematic issue:<BR>
<BR>
	The issue that private individuals can field their own armies and<BR>
can sell<BR>
the use of these armies to various sides in conflicts inside and between the<BR>
semi-sovereign states that make up the Third Imperium is particularly<BR>
troublesome. *example deleted*><BR>
<BR>
This is a problematic issue.  I would call the closest American analogy<BR>
"Professional Sports."  We do devote an enormous amount of resources to it<BR>
and people seem to get a lot out of their system while watching it.<BR>
<BR>
	<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 18:32:33 EDT<BR>
From: Qstor@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Notes on building Heya<BR>
<BR>
What I have a hard time with is...When you have a TL 4 planet and a <BR>
starport...Won't the TL 4 change very rapidly when the locals see what a nice <BR>
invention an air raft is and that they don't have to ride around on animal <BR>
powered carts anymore....I think the presence of a starport would alter the <BR>
planets culture...The goods that could be imported would make life so much <BR>
easier for the average member of society...I don't know if this has been <BR>
covered before on the TML....Pardon me if it has....<BR>
<BR>
Mike<BR>
<---- trying to emerge from Newbie Lurker status :)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2000 17:39:27 -0500<BR>
From: Richard Wilson <rtwilson@rollanet.org><BR>
Subject: Re: what is tech level?<BR>
<BR>
At 05:33 PM 4/5/00 -0700, you wrote:<BR>
>I've sort of been reading this thread.  You may find this<BR>
>observation useful, or not.<BR>
><BR>
>Within the game, tech level, along with the rest of the UPP, is<BR>
>assigned to the world by the IISS during its Grand Surveys.<BR>
>This is from Little Black Book #3, if I recall correctly.  (In<BR>
>my Traveller universe at least, IISS also does Petit Surveys<BR>
>within sectors and subsectors that update the occasional Grand<BR>
>Surveys.)  Recall that one of the early published adventures<BR>
>involved the local Scout office hiring the PCs to travel around<BR>
>Regina Subsector (I think), auditing the assigned UPPs.<BR>
><BR>
>The Scout Service must have a set of regulations that set forth<BR>
>what the survey crews are to examine in determining tech level.<BR>
>It's probably a fairly extensive list.  The gist of that set of<BR>
>regulations is what we're arguing about on the TML.  I don't<BR>
>recall what that gist is.  Highest level at which goods can be<BR>
>produced?  Highest level at which most goods are produced?<BR>
>Highest level of goods in use? that can be used at all? that can<BR>
>be used effectively?  I suspect that all of these questions are<BR>
>considered by the survey crews.<BR>
><BR>
>--Glenn<BR>
<BR>
What if the Scout Service has a very loose set of regulations that leave it <BR>
up to the survey crew? What if the survey crew is just lazy? What I mean <BR>
is, is the TL in a world's description the true TL or just what the Scout <BR>
Service reports the TL to be?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Richard Wilson<BR>
<BR>
rtwilson@rollanet.org<BR>
<BR>
========================================================================<BR>
Humanity is not something we should aspire to. It is something we should<BR>
strive to overcome.<BR>
========================================================================<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2262<BR>
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Traveller-digest      Thursday, April 6 2000      Volume 1999 : Number 2263<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Notes on building Heya<BR>
Re: Gencon UK<BR>
Re: Gencon UK<BR>
Re: Warrant of the Restoration<BR>
Re: Astronomy in the 57th Century<BR>
RE: Supernova <BR>
Duelling Penguins & Triples: Was Traveller Bibliography: Was District 268 Canon<BR>
Re: Gencon UK<BR>
Re: Gencon UK<BR>
Re: Gencon UK<BR>
IISS analogues (was re:  Warrant of the Restoration)<BR>
Re: Gencon UK<BR>
Re: Warrant of the Restoration<BR>
Re: Notes on building Heya<BR>
Re: Madoc subsector articles<BR>
Re: what is tech level?<BR>
Re: IISS analogues (was re:  Warrant of the Restoration)<BR>
Re: what is tech level?<BR>
Re: RS<BR>
Re: what is tech level?<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2000 16:20:02 -0700<BR>
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Notes on building Heya<BR>
<BR>
Qstor@aol.com wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> What I have a hard time with is...When you have a TL 4 planet and a<BR>
> starport...Won't the TL 4 change very rapidly when the locals see what a nice<BR>
> invention an air raft is and that they don't have to ride around on animal<BR>
> powered carts anymore....I think the presence of a starport would alter the<BR>
> planets culture...The goods that could be imported would make life so much<BR>
> easier for the average member of society...I don't know if this has been<BR>
> covered before on the TML....Pardon me if it has....<BR>
<BR>
Welcome, o newbie lurker!<BR>
<BR>
True, around a starport you'll see a higher general _apparent_ tech<BR>
level, but this won't necessarily go very far.<BR>
<BR>
The example most often dredged up here on the list is most poor third<BR>
world countries.<BR>
<BR>
Why, for example, doesn't everyone in Kenya drive Land Rovers? Because<BR>
they're too expensive, is why. The 'average' member of that society<BR>
makes $1500 a year. <BR>
(see: http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/ke.html#econ ) Not<BR>
enough to keep a Land Rover in fuel and and parts for a year, much less<BR>
purchasing one.<BR>
<BR>
Even locally manufactured TL-4 goods won't be as good (or profitable) as<BR>
TL-4 goods manufactured at a higher TL. <BR>
<BR>
Look, for example, at hand tools imported from China (roughly TL5-6)<BR>
right now, versus hand tools produced domestically (roughly TL 7-8)<BR>
There is a considerable difference, mostly due to the TL difference in<BR>
manufacture. (dunno about where everyone else is, but here there's a<BR>
chain called Harbor Freight Tools, that sell mostly cheap imported<BR>
items, tools, both hand and power, mostly. The quality (or lack thereof,<BR>
mostly) really shows. Good place to get screwdrivers you intend to use<BR>
as prybars though ;-)<BR>
<BR>
Note, this is NOT the highest TL that Chinese manufacture is capable of,<BR>
but...remember that huge flap some years ago over Toshiba (IIRC) selling<BR>
those computer controlled milling machines to the Soviets (This was<BR>
'85-ish). Suddenly the Soviet submarine fleet jumped a portion of a TL,<BR>
because they could now accomplish the subtle machining necessary to<BR>
reduce cavitation of their propeller, making them quieter, and thus<BR>
harder to track. If China was truly at our TL, those exported machine<BR>
tools would be as well made as our domestic ones. They're not. China has<BR>
cheap labor, but old infrastructure.<BR>
<BR>
Land Rovers also need imported or manufactured fuel and maintenance,<BR>
whereas a donkey can get fuel almost anywhere, mainetnance is simple<BR>
(either they get better or you shoot them) and most important, the don't<BR>
need specialized facilities for construction...all you need is a bunch<BR>
of them and time.<BR>
<BR>
A better example: the general TL of Mexico is about one or more behind<BR>
that of the US, despite extremely liberal trade laws and proximity to<BR>
the large US market. yet they remain at a lower TL. Why? Money. "it's a<BR>
gas...da-da-dum dum dum dum CHING da da dum" ;-)<BR>
<BR>
Worlds that are at low TL levels in the OTU will tend to be that way<BR>
because they can afford only that TL.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Bruce Johnson<BR>
University of Arizona<BR>
College of Pharmacy<BR>
Information Technology Group<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2000 00:33:20 +0100<BR>
From: "Nick Bradbeer" <nickb@ndirect.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: Gencon UK<BR>
<BR>
>>Yay! MAG BLAST!<BR>
>Absolutely! Did you get a copy? Apparently there are two expansions<BR>
planned....<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Never seen one around (although I haven't spent a lot of time in games<BR>
stores in the last six months).<BR>
<BR>
>>P.S. - Did those FT:Traveller rules ever get finished?<BR>
>There are copies of the last draft and the follow up spinal rules in<BR>
>the archive of<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Cool. I've sent in my subscription request.<BR>
<BR>
Nick<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2000 00:33:43 +0100<BR>
From: "Nick Bradbeer" <nickb@ndirect.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: Gencon UK<BR>
<BR>
>Dom<BR>
>Who has just realised that his company offices are over half the age<BR>
>of the USA....<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
"The difference between an Englishman and an American is that an Englishman<BR>
thinks a hundred miles is a long way, whereas an American thinks a hundred<BR>
years is a long time."<BR>
<BR>
(Can't for the life of me remember who said it.)<BR>
Nick<BR>
+++<BR>
(Who's posting FAR too much lately.)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 16:43:40 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Warrant of the Restoration<BR>
<BR>
>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
<BR>
>Who says the IISS is miltary? They are considerably *less* <BR>
>miltary than (for example) the Coast Guard. Nearest analogue I <BR>
>can think of is something like the Forestry Service, and the US<BR>
<BR>
>Geologcal Survey (or the Coast and Geodetic Survey people). <BR>
<BR>
Don't forget the Postal Service (fka the Post Office).  The<BR>
Forest Service is largely concerned with natural resource<BR>
management, which is not a function of IISS.  Geological Survey<BR>
does mapping, and is an obvious analogue.  <BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.<BR>
http://im.yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 16:48:29 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Astronomy in the 57th Century<BR>
<BR>
>From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu><BR>
<BR>
>>IMTU the Zhodani have good astronomers, the Vargr<BR>
>>are not really interested in astronomy (lack of patience,<BR>
>>little opportunity for Charisma gain)<BR>
><BR>
>Who says the Vargr don't have patience?  (Human propaganda! :-)<BR>
>I think they would have astronomy, but it would be more geared<BR>
>toward what could make a splash in the popular media with less<BR>
>emphasis on work that will never be appreciated except by a<BR>
>fewspecialists.<BR>
<BR>
Who says astronomy has little room for charisma gain?  Remember<BR>
that the Vargr typically like small groups and dominance in a<BR>
small group may be more important to an individual Vargr than<BR>
general, public recognition.  So being top dog (pun intended,<BR>
slur not) among an elite group of say 20 astronomers might give<BR>
that Vargr huge charisma in that context (especially at the<BR>
subsector astronomy conference).  <BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
do we have a program yet for converting our names to Gvegh, like<BR>
we do for Zhodani and Vilani?  I suspect mine will come out<BR>
Grenn Grofgrerren or something.  That's not bad, actually.<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
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Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.<BR>
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<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 16:50:59 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Supernova <BR>
<BR>
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net><BR>
<BR>
>Just a little off. It wasn't Cheap Trick, it was by The <BR>
>Boomtown Rats. When Brenda Spencer, the girl who shot her <BR>
>classmates, was asked why she did it, she simply responded, "I <BR>
>don't like Mondays."<BR>
<BR>
Yes, I stand corrected by several members of the list, which<BR>
jarred my memory that it was indeed Boomtown Rats.  <BR>
<BR>
What ever happened to Brenda Spencer?<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.<BR>
http://im.yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2000 00:24:26 +0100<BR>
From: "Matthew Bond" <mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Duelling Penguins & Triples: Was Traveller Bibliography: Was District 268 Canon<BR>
<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
From: Derrick Jones <dojones.whitestar@btinternet.com><BR>
To: 'TML' <traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Date: 06 April 2000 18:26<BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller Bibliography: Was District 268 Canon<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>The famous Mr Bond said...<BR>
>>What? Even better than ACQ?<BR>
>>Penguins (Adelie) at 10 paces, sirrah! <g><BR>
>>Matt<BR>
><BR>
>Given the fact that I have actually used the Bibliography, and haven't<BR>
>yet used the ACQ rules (hopefully will be changed soon), the best thing<BR>
>definition stands. I hope it can be corrected. But Tim's book will be very<BR>
>hard to beat...<BR>
><BR>
>Also, Matt, I would like your clarification.*.. I take it you are referring<BR>
to<BR>
>an old fashioned ranged projectile duel... How than would one use Adelie<BR>
>penguins at a range of 10 paces? To quote from the Muscle Powered<BR>
>Ranged Weapons table on p43 of Mr Berry's fine book, the Adelie Penguin<BR>
>has a base range of Contact, so that's OK, and furthermore is a<BR>
non-aerodynamic<BR>
>object, so the range of 10 metres (paces) would not be halved.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Yup. But see below...<BR>
<BR>
>With a mass of 4.7 Kg, you would require a Strength of at least 9, (V Short<BR>
>Range) which having met you, I could well assume. It would 15 AP to chuck<BR>
>(3 AP per Kg or part thereof). Could we assume the penguin is resisting to<BR>
>the point of medium recoil? 4AP.<BR>
<BR>
Well, only a rank amatuer would arrive at a duel with wild penguins! We<BR>
professionals favour highly trained Duelling Penguins (da da di da di da di<BR>
da daaa...), trained to offer no resistance and adopt a sleek stance, beak<BR>
forward <g>. The range would thus be halved to 5m (still Very Short) and<BR>
there would be no recoil penalty.<BR>
<BR>
>Any aiming would take 3APs per +1 Bonus.<BR>
>So then that's 19AP + 3AP per point of Aim Bonus...<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
15AP with Duelling Penguins, but otherwise OK.<BR>
<BR>
>Now then, how much military experience do you have? Tactics - 0 maybe?**<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Hmmm, my tactics would be an amalgam of cowboys & indians as a young boy,<BR>
several years as a cub/scout, Air Cadet, armchair military historian,<BR>
wargamer, and a little lasertag and paintball.<BR>
<BR>
In general my tactics in a combat situation are:<BR>
<BR>
1. Run away<BR>
2. If chased, Hide<BR>
3. If found, Abject Grovelling<BR>
4. If grovelling unsuccessfull, Fight Dirty (esp. elbows & knees applied to<BR>
sensitive areas, pushing opponents over and falling on them etc etc)<BR>
<BR>
>So if we assume you are Very Strong, Quite Fit***, Quite Dexterous and Very<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
I think the booze, fags, crisps, coke, asthma and weighing 22 stone (~300lb<BR>
for the Yanks) put the Endurance down quite a bit... <g> say to 3<BR>
<BR>
>Intelligent (you are an archaeologist, after all) - Say a UPP of B77Bxx,<BR>
you<BR>
>would have a APP of 19 ( 7 + 11 + 1 ) . Maybe you have Throwing -1?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
I would say 937BA7. I would need Tactics-1 for 19AP, the Throwing simply<BR>
make the task easier (but is irrelevant, see below <g>).<BR>
<BR>
>Now then, you could just about fire an unaimed shot in the combat round,<BR>
and<BR>
>this would hit me on a throw of 10+ (MT Rules). So the likleyhood is you'll<BR>
>either miss or only do 1 point of damage anyway....<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
1 *D6* damage<BR>
<BR>
>Pass me that penguin......Come here you varlet!<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Hmmm, refer to my tactics as described above...<BR>
<BR>
I run. You (being an ex-military type chappie) quickly gain on me as I grab<BR>
for my inhaler after about 50 yards. I attempt to hide, but your superior<BR>
military training quickly overcomes my feeble attempt at camoflage. I grovel<BR>
pathetically to no avail (you heartless b*stard! <g>). Then after being<BR>
forced to duel, as we stand back to back, loaded Penguin in hand, on the<BR>
count of 1 we both step forward, but rather than proceeding further on '2',<BR>
I whirl round and beat you upside da head wi' da penguin. See point 4 above.<BR>
<BR>
>Derrick<BR>
>(That's quite easy, if I've got it right. Maybe Tims has a fight on his<BR>
hands after all)<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
>* This is based soley on a loose quick reading of the rules, please correct<BR>
>me if I'm wrong...<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Not bad for a quick skim <g>. Like *I'm* an expert!<BR>
<BR>
>** I don't know, Matt, bear with me... No offense.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
None taken <g><BR>
<BR>
>***Although after all that beer and chips in HB, maybe not so fit now!!!<BR>
;-)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Hmmm, I dunno, those hills (My God! The Hills! The Hillls!!!) sure gave me a<BR>
good workout <g><BR>
<BR>
>Derrick Jones<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Matt<BR>
<BR>
BTW, I'm going to Triples in Sheffield on Saturday. I know it's a wargaming<BR>
show rather than a roleplaying one, but if any TMLer's are there, perhaps we<BR>
could meet up for a pint.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2000 00:31:58 +0100<BR>
From: "Matthew Bond" <mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: Gencon UK<BR>
<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
From: Nick Bradbeer <nickb@ndirect.co.uk><BR>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Date: 06 April 2000 19:07<BR>
Subject: Re: Gencon UK<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>>>And it is beginning to look like Penguin Boy might make it to the other<BR>
>>>side of the planet to attend and run some ACQ.<BR>
>><BR>
>>Psst! Andy, do you reckon we'll have to introduce him to the '<BR>
>>probably the chocolatiest biscuits in the world?' AKA Penguin<BR>
>>Biscuits?<BR>
>><BR>
>>Dom<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
>Yay! MAG BLAST!<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
That is such a cool game. Dom got me hooked at Hebden, but I still have yet<BR>
to get hold of a set :(<BR>
<BR>
>Nick<BR>
>+++<BR>
>P.S. - Did those FT:Traveller rules ever get finished?<BR>
>P.P.S. - Do you guys on BITS want help with anything? <Nick breaks the<BR>
>'never volunteer' law...><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2000 00:37:26 +0100<BR>
From: "Matthew Bond" <mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: Gencon UK<BR>
<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
From: Derrick Jones <dojones.whitestar@btinternet.com><BR>
To: 'TML' <traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Date: 06 April 2000 21:23<BR>
Subject: Re: Gencon UK<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>Dom Mooney wrote:<BR>
>>Psst! Andy, do you reckon we'll have to introduce him to the '<BR>
>>probably the chocolatiest biscuits in the world?' AKA Penguin<BR>
>>Biscuits?<BR>
><BR>
>>Dom<BR>
><BR>
>Just keep the green one for me, Dom. Don't ask why, it's a long<BR>
>story, but I can only eat the green ones.....<BR>
><BR>
>Doug Berry wrote:<BR>
>>Well, I've already told Dom that all he has to do is throw me at a<BR>
>>reasonably decent museum or castle, leave and come back in a few days to<BR>
>>take me to the con.<BR>
><BR>
>Well, I think you should go to Wales, Doug. But I would say that, wouldn't<BR>
I?<BR>
><BR>
>I know you're a 49ers fan, Doug, but if you wanted to I could organise you<BR>
a<BR>
>ticket for a Rugby League match while you're over here. See how real men<BR>
>play, without pads!!! I'm certain you would be shown some hospitality by<BR>
some<BR>
>of us northern lacals....<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Count me in.<BR>
<BR>
Rugby, a meat pie and a bovril at half time, and a few pints... ahhh, bliss!<BR>
<BR>
>Derrick<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Matt<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2000 00:42:12 +0100<BR>
From: "Matthew Bond" <mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: Gencon UK<BR>
<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Date: 06 April 2000 22:19<BR>
Subject: Re: Gencon UK<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>At 15:03 -0400 6/4/00, "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
wrote:<BR>
>> >Psst! Andy, do you reckon we'll have to introduce him to the '<BR>
>> >probably the chocolatiest biscuits in the world?' AKA Penguin<BR>
>> >Biscuits?<BR>
>><BR>
>>Well, I've already told Dom that all he has to do is throw me at a<BR>
>>reasonably decent museum or castle, leave and come back in a few days to<BR>
>>take me to the con.<BR>
><BR>
>Sorted ;-)<BR>
><BR>
>Dom<BR>
><BR>
>Who has just realised that his company offices are over half the age<BR>
>of the USA....<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Well, the ashtray I'm using at the moment is 9 times *older* than the USA<BR>
<g><BR>
<BR>
Matt<BR>
(One of the perks of being an archaeologist... nicking the base of a 2nd<BR>
century Romano-British Black Burnished Ware pot to use as an ashtray...)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 16:53:31 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: IISS analogues (was re:  Warrant of the Restoration)<BR>
<BR>
>From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
<BR>
>> Leonard Erickson wrote:> <BR>
>>> Who says the IISS is miltary? They are considerably *less*<BR>
>>>miltary than (for example) the Coast Guard. Nearest analogue<BR>
>>>I can think of is something like the Forestry Service, and <BR>
>>>the US Geologcal Survey (or the Coast and Geodetic Survey <BR>
>><BR>
>> With guns.  And starships, with weapons.<BR>
><BR>
>The coast guard has guns and armed ships.  Its actually <BR>
>probably a decent analog to the IISS.<BR>
<BR>
Coast Guard with postal workers with guns and armed ships.  Now<BR>
that's a scary IISS.<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.<BR>
http://im.yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2000 00:44:33 +0100<BR>
From: "Matthew Bond" <mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: Gencon UK<BR>
<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Date: 06 April 2000 22:19<BR>
Subject: Re: Gencon UK<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>At 15:03 -0400 6/4/00, "Nick Bradbeer" <nickb@ndirect.co.uk> wrote:<BR>
>> >>And it is beginning to look like Penguin Boy might make it to the other<BR>
>> >>side of the planet to attend and run some ACQ.<BR>
>> >Psst! Andy, do you reckon we'll have to introduce him to the '<BR>
>> >probably the chocolatiest biscuits in the world?' AKA Penguin<BR>
>> >Biscuits?<BR>
>><BR>
>>Yay! MAG BLAST!<BR>
><BR>
>Absolutely! Did you get a copy? Apparently there are two expansions<BR>
planned....<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Excellent news... I really *must* get a copy soon <g><BR>
<BR>
>>P.P.S. - Do you guys on BITS want help with anything? <Nick breaks the<BR>
>>'never volunteer' law...><BR>
><BR>
>Almost certainly. Let's talk off list...<BR>
><BR>
>Dom<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Count me in for stuff as well. Proof-reading, playtesting etc<BR>
<BR>
Matt<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2000 16:56:59 -0700<BR>
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Warrant of the Restoration<BR>
<BR>
Steve Daniels wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> > Who says the IISS is miltary? They are considerably *less* miltary than<BR>
> > (for example) the Coast Guard. Nearest analogue I can think of is<BR>
> > something like the Forestry Service, and the US Geologcal Survey (or<BR>
> > the Coast and Geodetic Survey people).<BR>
> <BR>
> With guns.  And starships, with weapons.<BR>
<BR>
LOL! I just had a vision:<BR>
<BR>
Scout 1: "Hey Enerii! You got the contours wrong on this map! They're at<BR>
least a dozen meters lower on this map than the actual peak measures."<BR>
<BR>
Scout 2: "Ok, hold on a sec!"<whine of meson cannon warming up, firing,<BR>
followed by a distant 'KA-BOOOOOOOOM'> "There, once the dust clooud<BR>
settles, I think you'll find that it's your measurements that are in<BR>
error, not my map. Look again." <BR>
<BR>
Scout #2 wanders off sucking down a Scout Brew, cackling madly.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Bruce Johnson<BR>
University of Arizona<BR>
College of Pharmacy<BR>
Information Technology Group<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 16:57:50 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Notes on building Heya<BR>
<BR>
>From: Qstor@aol.com<BR>
<BR>
>What I have a hard time with is...When you have a TL 4 planet <BR>
>and a  starport...Won't the TL 4 change very rapidly when the <BR>
>locals see what a nice invention an air raft is and that they <BR>
>don't have to ride around on animal powered carts anymore<BR>
><BR>
><---- trying to emerge from Newbie Lurker status :)<BR>
<BR>
Well, it's obvious that you're emerging from Newbie Lurker<BR>
status because you're pouring gasoline on the embers of one of<BR>
the TML's major flame wars.  <BR>
<BR>
Please go to the archives and review the extensive discussions<BR>
that we've had about this subject, then post to the TML a<BR>
detailed essay setting forth the consensus reached and<BR>
outstanding points of dissension.  Then we'll trash that and<BR>
you'll have to defend it and refine it.  Then you won't be a<BR>
newbie any more.<BR>
<BR>
Welcome to the list.  We have great fun here.<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
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Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.<BR>
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<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2000 16:59:05 -0700<BR>
From: "Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Madoc subsector articles<BR>
<BR>
Alvin's the man. Go dude, go!<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 17:00:57 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: what is tech level?<BR>
<BR>
From: Richard Wilson <rtwilson@rollanet.org><BR>
<BR>
>What if the Scout Service has a very loose set of regulations <BR>
>that leave it up to the survey crew? What if the survey crew is<BR>
<BR>
>just lazy? <BR>
<BR>
Good questions, but this<BR>
<BR>
>What I mean is, is the TL in a world's description the true TL <BR>
>or just what the Scout Service reports the TL to be?<BR>
<BR>
is the interesting metaphysical issue.  What is the "true TL"<BR>
anyway?  That's the heart of this discussion.  <BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.<BR>
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<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2000 19:15:23 -0500<BR>
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: Re: IISS analogues (was re:  Warrant of the Restoration)<BR>
<BR>
Glenn Goffin wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> >From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
> <BR>
> >> Leonard Erickson wrote:><BR>
> >>> Who says the IISS is miltary? They are considerably *less*<BR>
> >>>miltary than (for example) the Coast Guard. Nearest analogue<BR>
> >>>I can think of is something like the Forestry Service, and<BR>
> >>>the US Geologcal Survey (or the Coast and Geodetic Survey<BR>
> >><BR>
> >> With guns.  And starships, with weapons.<BR>
> ><BR>
> >The coast guard has guns and armed ships.  Its actually<BR>
> >probably a decent analog to the IISS.<BR>
> <BR>
> Coast Guard with postal workers with guns and armed ships.  Now<BR>
> that's a scary IISS.<BR>
<BR>
For those of you who have GT: First In, I remind you of the illustration<BR>
on page 129....<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2000 01:23:03 +0100<BR>
From: "Matthew Bond" <mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: what is tech level?<BR>
<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
To: traveller mailing aa list <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Date: 07 April 2000 01:02<BR>
Subject: Re: what is tech level?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>From: Richard Wilson <rtwilson@rollanet.org><BR>
><BR>
>>What if the Scout Service has a very loose set of regulations<BR>
>>that leave it up to the survey crew? What if the survey crew is<BR>
><BR>
>>just lazy?<BR>
><BR>
>Good questions, but this<BR>
><BR>
>>What I mean is, is the TL in a world's description the true TL<BR>
>>or just what the Scout Service reports the TL to be?<BR>
><BR>
>is the interesting metaphysical issue.  What is the "true TL"<BR>
>anyway?  That's the heart of this discussion.<BR>
><BR>
>--Glenn<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Another point about TL is that although a planet may have a TL comparable to<BR>
that of a certain time period of Earth, it almost certainly won't have the<BR>
same *culture*. That is, people on TL 3 planets probably don't all wear<BR>
tricorn hats and breeches. Also, shortly after achieving TL on Earth, we had<BR>
a couple of major wars which spurred on technological research. Yes many<BR>
ostensibly TL 5 farmers on Earth didn't use tractors prior to WWII, but a<BR>
planet that has been TL 5 for a couple of centuries or more will be very<BR>
different to one that progressed to TL6 within 50 years. Also wars tend to<BR>
place a lot of cheap, surplus Tech into civilian hands at their end. A<BR>
peaceful planet will have a different pervasiveness of Tech than one with a<BR>
history rife with conflict.<BR>
<BR>
Matt<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2000 17:25:33 -0700<BR>
From: "Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com><BR>
Subject: Re: RS<BR>
<BR>
Via electronic medium on 4/2/00 12:53 AM, Hiroshi.Estigarribia@gmx.de issued<BR>
forth:<BR>
<BR>
> BTW: It may be the case that the rights to the DGP stuff is the only thing<BR>
> vaulable that this guy has.<BR>
<BR>
OK, I have to ask, how much is the value of his Traveller holdings? How much<BR>
does /he/ think it is worth?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2000 01:49:44 +0100<BR>
From: "Matthew Bond" <mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: what is tech level?<BR>
<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
From: Matthew Bond <mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk><BR>
>tricorn hats and breeches. Also, shortly after achieving TL on Earth, we<BR>
had<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Ooops... that should say TL 5...<BR>
<BR>
Matt<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2263<BR>
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Traveller-digest       Friday, April 7 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2264<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Arcologies<BR>
Re: Notes on building Heya<BR>
RE: The Imperium and the 20th Century - Perfect together?<BR>
Adventure Seed:  The _Scandalous_ Affair<BR>
Re: Arcologies<BR>
Re: Arcologies<BR>
RE: Supernova <BR>
Re: FF&S2: Universal grapples question<BR>
Re: L+ Megacorp (was RS)<BR>
RE: Notes on building Heya<BR>
RE: Notes on building Heya<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2258<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2258<BR>
Re: IISS<BR>
Re: TL disparities in the OTU<BR>
Re: Traveller is the #1 RPG, but only barely...<BR>
Shameless commercialism: SPI's  Outreach and Starforce for sale<BR>
Re: New Madrid Fault (Ancestors Journal)<BR>
Seeker deckplans on ebay<BR>
Re: GT-Q: Ground Penetrating Radar and other toys<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 20:51:35 EDT<BR>
From: Damage169@cs.com<BR>
Subject: Arcologies<BR>
<BR>
Bruce Johnson writes:<BR>
<BR>
> At one point, I saw an outline about how a single arcology, essentially<BR>
>  a 1 cubic mile in size could easily hold the population of Tucson (then<BR>
>  a few hundred thousand) allowing the rest of the sprawling city to<BR>
>  revert to the wild.<BR>
<BR>
"Just think of it as evolution in action" - Graffiti on the side of Todos <BR>
Santos, an arcology in a book whose title and author I forget. It covered <BR>
exactly what you have just stated, namely, the first years of a newly <BR>
established arcology in the LA basin (around Hollywood, I think).<BR>
<BR>
Doug G.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 20:55:56 EDT<BR>
From: Qstor@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Notes on building Heya<BR>
<BR>
<------- running to get a high pressure water hose and 200 gallon tanker of <BR>
water :)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 21:02:12 -0400<BR>
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net><BR>
Subject: RE: The Imperium and the 20th Century - Perfect together?<BR>
<BR>
>I'm going to have to power up the chainsaw again, here.  You have a<BR>
tendancy<BR>
>towards long posts, Chris. :)<BR>
<BR>
I've found that there tends to be less confusion concerning what I say if I<BR>
take the time to say what I mean at length. My apologies. :)<BR>
<BR>
On personal freedom:<BR>
<BR>
>Third Imperium similarity: individual planets are vested with some degree<BR>
of<BR>
>individual freedom.  They are allowed to do pretty much what they want to<BR>
>even if they do hurt others a bit, as long as they don't hurt a lot of<BR>
>others (which is when the Imperium calls it disruptive to trade and<BR>
>interferes).  This concept of individual freedom on a planetary level is<BR>
>integral to the Third Imperium (and is mentioned in the Warrant of the<BR>
>Restoration).<BR>
<BR>
This isn't quite what I meant by personal freedom. Personal freedom is just<BR>
that, personal freedom. What you're talking about is sovereignal freedom. In<BR>
my own estimation, for sovereignal freedom to be at the level it is in most<BR>
Western democracies (specifically the West) there would have to be more<BR>
guaranteed freedoms than merely freedom from chattel slavery. The belief in<BR>
a great degree of personal latitude in personal affairs is quite possibly at<BR>
an all time high in America right now.<BR>
<BR>
However, the Imperium tends to look the other way at when it comes to<BR>
oppressive governments with strict laws. Indeed, these styles of government<BR>
are extremely common in the Imperium.<BR>
<BR>
More on sovereignal freedom below.<BR>
<BR>
On sovereignal freedom:<BR>
<BR>
>Third Imperium similarity:  Individual planets are also under the direction<BR>
>of the Imperial nobility with respect to their dealings with other member<BR>
>worlds and external states, as well as accepting certain imperial laws such<BR>
>as those against slavery and for taxation.<BR>
<BR>
What you've claimed is personal freedom above and civic freedom below is<BR>
actually sovereignal freedom. Member worlds in the Imperium are allowed,<BR>
within certain broad parameters, to govern their own affairs. What you seem<BR>
to be doing is broadening the notions of each sort of freedom in order to<BR>
cover the freedom that the Imperium extends to its member worlds to govern<BR>
themselves.<BR>
<BR>
Yes, I agree that the Third Imperium has a strong notion of sovereignal<BR>
freedom. Indeed, I would actually say that their notion of sovereignal<BR>
freedom goes above and beyond our own notion, which is very interesting. It<BR>
is a similarity that both the Imperium and modern day America have a strong<BR>
notion of sovereignal freedom. It's also a difference: Imagine if the state<BR>
of New York became a monarchy. How different do you think that Americans<BR>
would have to think in order for such a thing to be acceptable? Note, that<BR>
I'm not saying that the state of New York is seceding from the union, merely<BR>
that it's switching style of government.<BR>
<BR>
On civic freedom:<BR>
<BR>
>Third Imperium similarity: Each individual world has the right to chose its<BR>
>own form of government, and has total authority over it's world except for<BR>
>the imperial ground around the starport, within the extrality line.  The<BR>
>Imperium cannot interfere in local government unless Imperial laws are<BR>
>broken.<BR>
<BR>
That's not civic freedom though. There is no guarantee to the people of a<BR>
world that they may choose their own government, and no guarantee that<BR>
individuals may participate in the process of governing. Quite a different<BR>
animal entirely.<BR>
<BR>
>>Another characteristic of late 20th century western culture, frequently<BR>
>>commented on, is the idea that everything can be classified and<BR>
simplified,<BR>
>>and that, to some degree, scientific methods can be applied to any<BR>
problem.<BR>
><BR>
>Third Imperium similarities: The Grand Survey attempts to classify and<BR>
>simplify the description of 11,000 individual worlds into simple, 8-digit<BR>
>codes.<BR>
<BR>
There is no indication that the belief that scientific methods can be<BR>
applied to every problem, or even most problems. The Imperium merely<BR>
classifies things, which every culture does.<BR>
<BR>
By simplifying a problem, I mean just that. The issue of violence in America<BR>
is boiled down to, for example, the "evil media", and the "evil guns", while<BR>
people who are really interested in the problem realize that it's much more<BR>
complicated. Please note I will not get involved in a gun control debate,<BR>
nor is it my attempt to start one. And so on.<BR>
<BR>
The IISS doesn't seem to be dealing with a problem so much as applying<BR>
classifications to worlds, which is really no different than naming animals,<BR>
or arranging the periodic table of elements. It's not the issue of<BR>
classification that I'm talking about, but the depth and extent of<BR>
classification.<BR>
<BR>
>>In America, technological progress is believed to be the ultimate problem<BR>
>>solver: no problem can exist that the application of the appropriate<BR>
>>technology can't solve.<BR>
><BR>
>Third Imperium similarity: The longbow project.  So we can't see what the<BR>
>Zho's are finding on their core expeditions?  Let's create the galaxy's<BR>
>largest synthetic apeture project ever and find out.<BR>
>The 3I also has research stations dotted throughout known space, all of<BR>
>which are engaged in cutting edge research.<BR>
<BR>
Yes, but the Longbow Project is a problem that the application of the<BR>
appropriate technology can solve, and it would be reasonable to apply<BR>
technology to this end.<BR>
<BR>
Just because research is conducted doesn't mean that the Imperium is as<BR>
fascinated with the new in the same way that America is. This trend is<BR>
especially acute in the American medical field (which even our Western<BR>
neighbors the Europeans tend to look at with puzzlement). The idea is that<BR>
sleeker machines and more pills will solve every medical problem, including<BR>
behavioral and emotional problems (with generally mixed results).<BR>
<BR>
This is almost purely American. We embrace every new technology, and sing<BR>
its praises and rush headlong into the use of these technologies. Even other<BR>
Western cultures don't tend to do this.<BR>
<BR>
>Romantic love has appeared in a few Traveller adventures and TNS bulletins,<BR>
>but it's place in the Imperium as a whole has not been discussed, so I<BR>
would<BR>
>say there's no evidence either way on this one.<BR>
<BR>
I don't disagree here. You just asked me for my account of what makes the<BR>
West / America different from other cultures. This one is a biggie.<BR>
<BR>
>>Perhaps most importantly, there's the peculiar notion that, in some<BR>
>>fashion, these other elements are all part of "human nature". I'm not<BR>
saying<BR>
>>that this notion is peculiar because I don't believe in it, but because<BR>
it's<BR>
>>not something that many cultures have professed a belief in. We believe<BR>
it's<BR>
>>natural to want personal freedom, and find it odd when the Chinese don't<BR>
>>flock to the notion of personal freedom, and so on.<BR>
><BR>
>I'm not sure if this is an aspect unique to 20th century American culture.<BR>
<BR>
Pretty much. Other cultures have acknowledged some degree of human nature,<BR>
usually involving things like sleeping, eating, engaging in intercourse, and<BR>
so on. In the U.S. we go beyond that.<BR>
<BR>
>I recognize it's present, but pretty much every culture out there believes<BR>
>that the way they do things is the correct way (why would they be doing it<BR>
>otherwise?), and many believed that it was the proper way because humans<BR>
had<BR>
>been created that way.  Feudal Japan, for example, where every person had<BR>
>his place and was thwarting nature if he went outside of it, because it was<BR>
>part of his nature to be in that place in society.<BR>
<BR>
Your feudal Japan scenario is quite different. Every person had his place,<BR>
and it was that person's nature to be in that place. This is extremely<BR>
common in feudal and semi-feudal societies, Greece, Rome, medieval Europe<BR>
and so on. That's not the same as a belief that everybody is governed by a<BR>
belief in the same sorts of abstract concepts that your culture is, or wants<BR>
those things wholesale: personal freedom, romantic / sexual love, that all<BR>
people are governed by Freudian psychology, and so on.<BR>
<BR>
It's one thing to say that some people are born a certain way (in Greek<BR>
literature, the notion that barbarians are born to be enslaved pops up<BR>
frequently), it's another to say that *all* people are born a certain way.<BR>
<BR>
Consider the differences in the following two notions:<BR>
<BR>
1.) Everybody on the TML wants to be able to sing and play the guitar.<BR>
<BR>
2.) Leonard Erickson is driven to get involved in gearhead discussions, Hans<BR>
is driven to desire official canon support in arguments, Eris is driven to<BR>
be a heretic, etc.<BR>
<BR>
>>	The issue that private individuals can field their own armies and<BR>
>>can sell the use of these armies to various sides in conflicts inside and<BR>
between the<BR>
>>semi-sovereign states that make up the Third Imperium is particularly<BR>
>>troublesome.<BR>
><BR>
>This is a problematic issue.  I would call the closest American analogy<BR>
>"Professional Sports."  We do devote an enormous amount of resources to it<BR>
>and people seem to get a lot out of their system while watching it.<BR>
<BR>
I don't think that there's a similarity there at all. Within the background,<BR>
the idea is that worlds within the Imperium should be allowed to wage war<BR>
with each other, relatively unhindered, for any reason. One could argue that<BR>
this is a natural extension of the Imperium's "hands off" style of ruling<BR>
with respect to individual worlds, i.e., the high degree of importance the<BR>
Imperial rulers place on the notion of sovereignal freedom.<BR>
<BR>
I don't think that there's any sort of similarity to be found here. The<BR>
Imperium, as a whole, must have some very different notions of personal<BR>
freedom in order to allow Imperial citizens to engage in wholesale slaughter<BR>
of other Imperial citizens... and make a profit off of it to boot. This<BR>
isn't an illicit activity, but a perfectly legitimate and acceptable<BR>
activity in the social framework of the Imperium.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2000 20:14:06 -0500<BR>
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: Adventure Seed:  The _Scandalous_ Affair<BR>
<BR>
Situation:  The PCs do not own or control a starship.  At least one PC<BR>
is an ex-Scout.  The PCs are in a system with a Scout base (preferably<BR>
near a border).<BR>
<BR>
An ex-Scout in the group is approached by a thin, balding man (apparent<BR>
age: late 30s), who identifies himself as Joseph Gaakshirum, an IISS<BR>
bureaucrat assigned to the Detached Duty office.  If the PCs agree to<BR>
meet with him, he tells them the following:<BR>
<BR>
"Gentlebeings, I appreciate your willingness to see me.  I have a bit of<BR>
a problem, and I was hoping you could help.<BR>
<BR>
"Last Twoday [four days ago], a Scout by the name of Musush Johanssen<BR>
went through the outprocessing station here on [name of world].  Based<BR>
on her file, she was allocated a surplus Type S scout/courier, under the<BR>
Ship Utilization for Detached Duty Scouts (SUDDS) program. <BR>
Unfortunately, I, uh...assigned her the wrong ship."<BR>
<BR>
<<Mr. Gaakshirum hands the ex-Scout a ship specification flimsy>><BR>
<BR>
"That's _Scandalous_, an experimental, heavily-modified scout/courier on<BR>
trials here.  As you can see, this is a much more valuable vessel than a<BR>
typical scout/courier.  Besides, my supervision is due back from [the<BR>
subsector capital] on Oneday; if _Scandalous_ isn't back in her dock by<BR>
then, I'll be lucky if I'm just transferred to [IISS base with a local<BR>
reputation as a hell-hole].  Unfortunately, SUDDS regulations don't<BR>
allow me to confiscate the ship without "due cause and due process",<BR>
which would take too long and draw too much attention.<BR>
<BR>
"If you gentlebeings can either recover the vessel or, uh...convince Ms.<BR>
Johanssen to exchange it voluntarily for a standard Type S, then I will<BR>
issue a Type S to [ex-Scout PC] under SUDDS.  Of course, this needs to<BR>
happen before Oneday."<BR>
<BR>
1.  All is as it seems.  If the PCs succeed in getting _Scandalous_<BR>
back, Mr. Gaakshirum will indeed issue the PC a Type S under SUDDS.<BR>
<BR>
2.  As #1 above, except the Type S has the unmodified air filtration<BR>
system.<BR>
<BR>
3.  As #1 above.  However, Ms. Johanssen is the niece of a prominent<BR>
local noble; if the PCs agree to let her leave with _Scandalous_, she<BR>
will arrange the down payment for purchase of either a Type S, a Type A<BR>
Free Trader (_Beowulf_-class), or a Type A2 Far Trader (_Empress<BR>
Marava_-class).  (She knows what a bennie _Scandalous_ is.)<BR>
<BR>
4.  Mr. Gaakshirum has been bribed by General Shipyards to get control<BR>
of _Scandalous_, so that they can study (and possibly copy) this<BR>
AuricTech project.  No ship for the PCs.  C'est la vie.<BR>
<BR>
5.  As #4 above, except that Mr. Gaakshirum is working for an<BR>
extra-Imperial power (depending on border region).<BR>
<BR>
6.  Ms. Johanssen was actually issued a standard Type S; Mr. Gaakshirum<BR>
is using the PCs to distract her, while he carries out some unrelated<BR>
scheme of his own.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
For those of you joining us late, _Scandalous_ is a 100-dton, MCr 627<BR>
variant of the standard Type S.  If you missed the posting a few days<BR>
ago, I can forward it to you off-list.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 21:05:52 EDT<BR>
From: JFZeigler@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Arcologies<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated Thu, 6 Apr 2000  8:54:59 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Damage169@cs.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
> "Just think of it as evolution in action" - Graffiti on the side of Todos <BR>
> Santos, an arcology in a book whose title and author I forget. It covered <BR>
> exactly what you have just stated, namely, the first years of a newly <BR>
> established arcology in the LA basin (around Hollywood, I think).<BR>
<BR>
_Oath of Fealty_.  By the redoubtable Niven & Pournelle.<BR>
<BR>
Jon F. Zeigler<BR>
JFZeigler@aol.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2000 18:15:08 -0700<BR>
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Arcologies<BR>
<BR>
"Oath of Fealty", by Jerry Pournelle. <BR>
<BR>
Live in Todos Santos, be free of the crime and wretchedness of the<BR>
outside. <BR>
<BR>
Of course you have to be upper middle class to get in in the first<BR>
place, to accept full time video monitoring of you wherever you go, have<BR>
any 'outside' contact closely monitored and you are at the mercy of the<BR>
corporate owners. Don't fall behind on those mortgage payments, don't<BR>
complain, don't stick out. <BR>
<BR>
Much like living in some of the more oppressive gated communities,<BR>
today, full of people who are just like each other, and quite determined<BR>
to make sure it stays that way...exchanging liberty for security.<BR>
<BR>
And you have the restive teeming masses just outside...<BR>
<BR>
Damage169@cs.com wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> Bruce Johnson writes:<BR>
> <BR>
> > At one point, I saw an outline about how a single arcology, essentially<BR>
> >  a 1 cubic mile in size could easily hold the population of Tucson (then<BR>
> >  a few hundred thousand) allowing the rest of the sprawling city to<BR>
> >  revert to the wild.<BR>
> <BR>
> "Just think of it as evolution in action" - Graffiti on the side of Todos<BR>
> Santos, an arcology in a book whose title and author I forget. It covered<BR>
> exactly what you have just stated, namely, the first years of a newly<BR>
> established arcology in the LA basin (around Hollywood, I think).<BR>
> <BR>
> Doug G.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Bruce Johnson<BR>
University of Arizona<BR>
College of Pharmacy<BR>
Information Technology Group<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 21:17:19 -0400<BR>
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net><BR>
Subject: RE: Supernova <BR>
<BR>
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net><BR>
<BR>
>>Just a little off. It wasn't Cheap Trick, it was by The<BR>
>>Boomtown Rats. When Brenda Spencer, the girl who shot her<BR>
>>classmates, was asked why she did it, she simply responded, "I<BR>
>>don't like Mondays."<BR>
><BR>
>Yes, I stand corrected by several members of the list, which<BR>
>jarred my memory that it was indeed Boomtown Rats.<BR>
><BR>
>What ever happened to Brenda Spencer?<BR>
<BR>
I hope that's not a rhetorical question, 'cause I actually checked on the<BR>
internet after posting that. She was up for parole in early 1998, but it<BR>
would appear that parole was turned down. She'll be up again in 2001.<BR>
<BR>
The quote is actually longer. When asked why, she responded, "I don't like<BR>
Mondays. This livens up the day." When asked who she was trying to shoot she<BR>
said, "No one in particular. I kind of like the red and blue jackets." There<BR>
you have it. She's still doing time at the moment, though the thought that<BR>
she might hit the street one day soon is somewhat frightening.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 21:22:08 EDT<BR>
From: Damage169@cs.com<BR>
Subject: Re: FF&S2: Universal grapples question<BR>
<BR>
Jens Rydholm writes:<BR>
<BR>
>  <BR>
>  Can universal grapples carry more than one craft at once, as long as the<BR>
>  combined craft sizes are less than the maximum size of the grapples?<BR>
>  <BR>
<BR>
I'd say that it would depend on the number of grapples available/installed. I <BR>
think a minimum of three grapples per craft, primarily for stability (like a <BR>
tripod landing gear arrangement). So if your ship has 6 grapples, you can <BR>
carry 2 ships; if it has 5 grapples, you can only carry 1. I'd also suggest <BR>
allowing only 50-75% total size of the designed grapple site limit to be <BR>
carried, to reflect the fact that the emplacement was not designed for <BR>
multiple craft.<BR>
<BR>
Doug G.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 21:41:05 -0400<BR>
From: "J-Man" <j-man@iname.com><BR>
Subject: Re: L+ Megacorp (was RS)<BR>
<BR>
Same here, Jesse.  I like your plan.  Besides, all the Traveller material<BR>
should belong to its creator.<BR>
___________________________________________________________<BR>
 J-Man<BR>
 ICQ# 2843475<BR>
 New Hampshire - U.S.A.<BR>
 Email : j-man@iname.com<BR>
 Home Page : http://www.gocsystems.com/<BR>
___________________________________________________________<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <jdegraff@pacbell.net><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Thursday, April 06, 2000 2:02 PM<BR>
Subject: RE: L+ Megacorp (was RS)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> J-Man,<BR>
> OUCH!!  Sorry to hear that dude.  A good friend of mine had to declare<BR>
> bankruptcy and it was no fun, though he did luck out as far as payment<BR>
> schedules when he went to court, but that's a long story :)<BR>
><BR>
> Anyway, the first thing I'd do if I ever won the lottery (or otherwise<BR>
> became "rich"), after running around whooping for joy and rolling in the<BR>
> money from cashing the first payment check, etc., would be to buy every<BR>
> single scrap of everything off of the Nameless One.  Once the paperwork<BR>
was<BR>
> finished, I'd flip him off saying "F#@% You very much", then give<BR>
everything<BR>
> to Marc for the grand sum of $1.00.  Then if there were any writers or<BR>
> artists (gotta' take care of my own :) that hadn't been paid for DGP<BR>
> properties, I'd pay them what they're owed plus 400%.<BR>
><BR>
> <<sigh>>  I can dream can't I?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 21:49:25 -0400<BR>
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net><BR>
Subject: RE: Notes on building Heya<BR>
<BR>
Qstor said:<BR>
<BR>
>What I have a hard time with is...When you have a TL 4 planet and a<BR>
>starport...Won't the TL 4 change very rapidly when the locals see what a<BR>
nice<BR>
>invention an air raft is and that they don't have to ride around on animal<BR>
>powered carts anymore....<BR>
<BR>
It depends. What usually happens is that the tech level goes down, not up.<BR>
Here's an example:<BR>
<BR>
A starport opens up, the locals see all of the shiny Imperial baubles, and<BR>
they *want* those Imperial baubles. They can't have them though, because<BR>
they don't have Imperial *credits*. They get surly. Then, Dulinor comes<BR>
along and says "I will give everyone access to shiny Imperial baubles!"<BR>
Everybody cheers, "Hooray for Dulinor!". Lots of high population worlds are<BR>
depopulated in a brutal war. Then a nasty computer virus is released, lots<BR>
of people die, and nearly every world in the Imperium drops several tech<BR>
levels.<BR>
<BR>
Seriously, though, it depends on whether or not the world can afford the<BR>
high-tech goods that they see at the starport. They may or may not have the<BR>
cash.<BR>
<BR>
>I think the presence of a starport would alter the<BR>
>planets culture...<BR>
<BR>
Without a doubt, even if they can't import lots of high-tech goods.<BR>
<BR>
>The goods that could be imported would make life so much<BR>
>easier for the average member of society...<BR>
<BR>
Most high-tech goods will probably be mundane, foodstuffs (although there is<BR>
some debate concerning whether or not these are "high-tech"), plastics and<BR>
finished plastic goods, simple manufactured products, cheap toys, the kinds<BR>
of mundane things which happen to be imported and exported every day on<BR>
earth.<BR>
<BR>
>I don't know if this has been covered before on the TML....<BR>
>Pardon me if it has....<BR>
<BR>
It has been, but it's always good to stir the pot up a little bit. Welcome<BR>
to the list, as you're emerging from Newbie Lurker status. :)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 21:49:27 -0400<BR>
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net><BR>
Subject: RE: Notes on building Heya<BR>
<BR>
Ian said:<BR>
<BR>
>	As a plus, this can be part of the waste disposal system.  The down<BR>
>	side may be the quality of food, but that problem may be mitigated<BR>
>	eventually.<BR>
<BR>
Artificial colorings and flavorings! That's all I've got to say. :)<BR>
<BR>
>>As a side note, although hydroponics are generally considered to be in the<BR>
>>realm of domed cities and space stations, they could be very useful in<BR>
>>locations with contaminated soil and / or water. I live in inner city<BR>
>>Philadelphia, and there's a hydroponic farm right down the street. As it<BR>
>>turns out, they can't plant stuff in the ground because there used to be a<BR>
>>galvanizing plant on the site and all kinds of really unpleasant things<BR>
have<BR>
>>leached into the soil.<BR>
><BR>
>	Good point, I would expect all of the available methods of food<BR>
>	production to be used where possible.  Vats of geneered yeast for<BR>
>	protein that is used in cheap food products and animal feed, hydroponics<BR>
>	for specialty vegetables, greenhouses for gourmet delicacies, etc.<BR>
<BR>
Probably, if they're required at all, after all, fresh lettuce may not be a<BR>
luxury if you're used to synthetically flavored mycoproteins. That's one of<BR>
the interesting things about America these days: our tastebuds have been all<BR>
but destroyed by T.V. dinners and fast food restaurants. :)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 21:54:58 EDT<BR>
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2258<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 00-04-06 09:48:03 EDT, you write:<BR>
<BR>
SmithW@hartwick.edu Asks<BR>
> Jimmy Simpson wrote:<BR>
> ><Great journal entry from an ancestor about the quakes of the early<BR>
> 19th c.)><BR>
> <BR>
> Nasty. Where are there falls on the Ohio? I'm not very familiar with<BR>
> that river. <BR>
<BR>
Near Cincinatti, I _think_. They presented a hazard to steamboats in the <BR>
early 1800s. THey aren't falls in the Niagara sense, IIRC.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 22:10:39 EDT<BR>
From: KenRoney@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2258<BR>
<BR>
The Great Falls of the Ohio are located at Louisville.  They are now under <BR>
water thanks to a corps of engineers dam.<BR>
<BR>
Ken<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 22:16:23 EDT<BR>
From: Damage169@cs.com<BR>
Subject: Re: IISS<BR>
<BR>
Glenn writes:<BR>
<BR>
> Coast Guard with postal workers with guns and armed ships.  Now<BR>
>  that's a scary IISS.<BR>
>  <BR>
>  - --Glenn<BR>
>  <BR>
Sounds like Oregon.<BR>
<BR>
Doug G.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 22:14:00 -0400<BR>
From: "Steven E. Ehrbar" <ehrbar@SoftHome.net><BR>
Subject: Re: TL disparities in the OTU<BR>
<BR>
From: "Ian Ferguson" <ian@vax2.concordia.ca><BR>
> There is certainly a good arguement to made for that POV.  On the<BR>
> other hand, I had always assumed (perhaps unwisely) that the great<BR>
> majority of worlds occupied by humans were colonized from offworld,<BR>
> presumably using TL 9+ ships.<BR>
<BR>
Sure.  But it's difficult to maintain full TL without a fully developed<BR>
industrial base, so the colony will probably be one or two behind to begin<BR>
with.  Many colony worlds also were founded during the First Imperium,<BR>
meaning they were cut off from trade (including spare parts and other things<BR>
the local colony was not equipped to make) for over a thousand years.<BR>
<BR>
Now, another effect of tech advancement is a loss of general knowledge about<BR>
earlier techniques.  You can see this in Cuba today, with plows tied to the<BR>
horns of oxen -- the tractor led to loss of knowledge of the yoke.  So, when<BR>
the tractors failed and parts could not be purchased, the farmers didn't<BR>
just drop to 19th-century plow technology; they fell all the way back to<BR>
fourteenth century farming techniques.<BR>
<BR>
Finally, population growth can dilute technology.  That relatively small<BR>
colony world of 100,000 people when the Long Night fell might have had a<BR>
population of twenty million when trade was restored a thousand years later.<BR>
Even if all the old machinery was still working, it's divided two hundred<BR>
times more thinly; a lot of low tech will become prevalent.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 22:33:56 -0400<BR>
From: "Steven E. Ehrbar" <ehrbar@SoftHome.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller is the #1 RPG, but only barely...<BR>
<BR>
From: "Eric Henry" <ehenry@newberlin.org><BR>
> well i did my five votes part ;)<BR>
<BR>
I alone am roughly 10% of the total votes cast, although I spread them among<BR>
Trav, GURPS, and Ars Magica. (Until they imposed this new ID thing, my<BR>
scripts were casting ~75 votes a day for my benificiary of the moment<BR>
through a whole bunch of web anonymizing services.)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 23:05:56 EDT<BR>
From: JDoch226@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Shameless commercialism: SPI's  Outreach and Starforce for sale<BR>
<BR>
Email me off list for a list of boardgames for sale, including unpunched <BR>
copies of Outreach and Starforce.<BR>
<BR>
Jed Docherty<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2000 22:34:48 -0500<BR>
From: Jimmy Simpson <nimrod@santech.com><BR>
Subject: Re: New Madrid Fault (Ancestors Journal)<BR>
<BR>
At 08:57 AM 4/6/00 -0400, you wrote:<BR>
>Jimmy Simpson wrote:<BR>
> ><Great journal entry from an ancestor about the quakes of the early<BR>
>19th c.)><BR>
><BR>
>Nasty. Where are there falls on the Ohio? I'm not very familiar with<BR>
>that river.<BR>
><BR>
>Jimmy again:<BR>
> >"... you may all go to hell<BR>
> >and I will go to Texas."<BR>
> >                      -David Crockett<BR>
><BR>
>"If I owned Hell and Texas, I'd live in Hell and rent out Texas."<BR>
>                        - Sam Houston<BR>
<BR>
I don't know, I live in Texas<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Jimmy Simpson<BR>
      nimrodd@fastlane.net<BR>
<BR>
"The avalanche has already started.<BR>
It is too late for the pebbles to vote."<BR>
                       -Kosh Naranek (Babylon 5)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2000 23:30:27 -0500<BR>
From: Paul Kerby <ybrekp@mtco.com><BR>
Subject: Seeker deckplans on ebay<BR>
<BR>
The following are currently for auction on ebay:<BR>
<BR>
Traveller: LabShip Deckplans by Seeker<BR>
http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=302896970<BR>
<BR>
Traveller: SDB Deckplans from SEEKER<BR>
http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=302897171<BR>
<BR>
Traveller:Empress Marava from SEEKER<BR>
http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=302897366<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
thanks for looking.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2000 23:46:16 -0500<BR>
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: Re: GT-Q: Ground Penetrating Radar and other toys<BR>
<BR>
Nick Bradbeer wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> >IMHO, since there are few plausible excuses for a starship to loiter<BR>
> >(there aren't any fish to catch in interplanetary space), you're better<BR>
> >off designing a standoff SIGINT platform, able to operate at distances<BR>
> >of 1,000 AU or greater.<BR>
> <BR>
> I disagree. I can see a 'spy trder' being very useful as an intel gathering<BR>
> asset. Wander from planet to planet, pick up and drop off cargo, hang around<BR>
> for three or four days in each system, and listen to all that lovely radio<BR>
> traffic.<BR>
> <BR>
> If you decide you'd like to hang around a bit longer in one place, discover<BR>
> that you need repairs.<BR>
<BR>
I agree that there is a place for short-term covert collection<BR>
platforms.  Such ships, however, should be relatively non-descript, in<BR>
case thay are boarded by customs inspectors.  You can get by with a<BR>
couple of extra radio transceivers, especially in border areas<BR>
(redundancy is safety in the frontier).  Large receiver installations<BR>
and stealthing beyond the norm would attract suspicion in a "spy<BR>
trader."  A dedicated SIGINT ship should not expect to pass as an<BR>
ordinary merchant vessel, and therefore has special design<BR>
considerations.<BR>
> <BR>
> There's a place for 1000AU SIGINT ships too, but they fulfill a totally<BR>
> different role. And they tend to be really expensive too....oh, I see...it's<BR>
> AuricTech....<BR>
<BR>
Actually, for the mission, the PUEBLO-class is surprisingly affordable<BR>
(MCr 40,370).  Over half the cost is in the Sensitivity 15 (500 mkm base<BR>
range) folding-array PEMS.<BR>
<BR>
BTW, I'm pleased that AuricTech has begun to develop a reputation for<BR>
high capability ships, albeit at a high price (see our motto in my sig<BR>
file).  Note, however, that AuricTech merchant designs are generally<BR>
highly profitable (see the F21-1 and F21-2 small passenger ships on my<BR>
Web site).<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/colverber/travler.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2264<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2265</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
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Traveller-digest       Friday, April 7 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2265<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Arcologies<BR>
Re: what is tech level?<BR>
Re: Notes on building Heya<BR>
RE: Warrant of the Restoration<BR>
Website<BR>
Re: IISS (was re: Warrant of Restoration)<BR>
re : Notes on building Heya<BR>
Re: Gencon UK<BR>
Re: Gencon UK<BR>
RE: Supernova<BR>
RE: Supernova<BR>
Re: Traveller is the #1 RPG, but only barely...<BR>
Forine 1 long<BR>
Re Gold Plated Scouts<BR>
Re VLBA<BR>
RE: TL disparities in the OTU<BR>
Re: Astronomy in the 57th Century]<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2000 00:51:29 -0400<BR>
From: Bill Rutherford <worj@home.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Arcologies<BR>
<BR>
At 08:51 PM 04/06/2000 -0400, Bruce and Doug wrote:<BR>
>Bruce Johnson writes:<BR>
><BR>
> > At one point, I saw an outline about how a single arcology, essentially<BR>
> >  a 1 cubic mile in size could easily hold the population of Tucson (then<BR>
> >  a few hundred thousand) allowing the rest of the sprawling city to<BR>
> >  revert to the wild.<BR>
><BR>
>"Just think of it as evolution in action" - Graffiti on the side of Todos<BR>
>Santos, an arcology in a book whose title and author I forget. It covered<BR>
>exactly what you have just stated, namely, the first years of a newly<BR>
>established arcology in the LA basin (around Hollywood, I think).<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Too, take a look at Peter Hamilton's books on "The Reality Dysfunction" - <BR>
In it, Earth is composed entirely of arcologies, with what's essentially <BR>
wasteland in-between, and connected by tube trains... The cities/arcologies <BR>
essentially go straight up into the thin air...<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Bill Rutherford<BR>
worj@home.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2000 01:57:02 -0400<BR>
From: "DaveShayne" <daveshayne@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re: what is tech level?<BR>
<BR>
>Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2000 17:39:27 -0500<BR>
>From: Richard Wilson <rtwilson@rollanet.org><BR>
>Subject: Re: what is tech level?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<snip><BR>
<BR>
>What if the Scout Service has a very loose set of regulations that leave it<BR>
>up to the survey crew?<BR>
<BR>
This is how it works IMTU.<BR>
<BR>
>What if the survey crew is just lazy?<BR>
<BR>
Then inacurate data is included in official publications regarding that<BR>
system.<BR>
If the area in question is frequently visited and the survey data is<BR>
strongly<BR>
at variance with reality another survey will be sent in to fix any errors.<BR>
(But<BR>
what if the suplemental team doesn't care either?)<BR>
<BR>
>What I mean<BR>
>is, is the TL in a world's description the true TL or just what the Scout<BR>
>Service reports the TL to be?<BR>
<BR>
I play the published data as official reports. Subject to errors of<BR>
ommision, commision,<BR>
permision, etc. Backwater planets data may be reasonably accurate or wildly<BR>
inaplicable. Or anywhere in between. The case of a planet with only slight<BR>
inacuracies in survey data may be more annoying to PC groups than the<BR>
obviously wrong entries. (Imagine trying to negotiate a trade agreement with<BR>
the heads of families on what you believe to be a planet run by a Restricted<BR>
Oligarchy<BR>
only to find that the oligarchs are in fact mere figurehead remnants of a<BR>
previous<BR>
government and the real power brokers are those Technocrats in the<BR>
"Laboratory<BR>
Enclaive."<BR>
<BR>
Dave Shayne<BR>
<BR>
"Now the workers have struck for fame<BR>
    cuz Lennon's on sale again." - David Bowie<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2000 01:38:11 -0400<BR>
From: "DaveShayne" <daveshayne@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Notes on building Heya<BR>
<BR>
>Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 18:32:33 EDT<BR>
>From: Qstor@aol.com<BR>
>Subject: Re: Notes on building Heya<BR>
><BR>
>What I have a hard time with is...When you have a TL 4 planet and a<BR>
>starport...Won't the TL 4 change very rapidly when the locals see what a<BR>
nice<BR>
>invention an air raft is and that they don't have to ride around on animal<BR>
>powered carts anymore....I think the presence of a starport would alter the<BR>
>planets culture...The goods that could be imported would make life so much<BR>
>easier for the average member of society...I don't know if this has been<BR>
>covered before on the TML....Pardon me if it has....<BR>
><BR>
>Mike<BR>
><---- trying to emerge from Newbie Lurker status :)<BR>
<BR>
Hail and well met friend.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
OTOH<BR>
<BR>
In the city of New York, NY the hansom (ie horse drawn) cab is considered<BR>
a luxury mode of transportation. (Admitedly usually reserved for romantic<BR>
assignations.) This use of TL3 transportation technology is in an area where<BR>
TL8-9 equipment is readily available. To say nothing of the enclaves of<BR>
TL3 culture in the area of Pennsylvania. It is quite possible for large<BR>
groups of people with access to stellar levels of technology to chose the<BR>
simpler/more romantic/more easily sustainable TL.<BR>
<BR>
On the other other hand.<BR>
<BR>
Children raised in a low tech society may very well decide to abandon the<BR>
rustic life for the gee-whiz gizmos to be found at the starport and by<BR>
extension<BR>
the rest of the Imperium. The obvious flipside to this argument is that it's<BR>
likely that many persons raised in hectic high tech societies will be<BR>
attracted to the simple agrarian cultures of TL1-4. In short in a polity<BR>
that consists of aproximately 11,000 worlds there is an awfull lot of room<BR>
for nonconformist groups of all shapes, sizes, creeds and tech levels.<BR>
<BR>
Embrace diversity. It results in more conflict for the PC's to get caught<BR>
up in.<BR>
<BR>
YTUMV<BR>
<BR>
Dave Shayne<BR>
<BR>
"Now the workers have struck for fame<BR>
    cuz Lennon's on sale again." - David Bowie<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2000 18:13:33 +1200<BR>
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: Warrant of the Restoration<BR>
<BR>
> On Behalf Of Qstor@aol.com<BR>
<BR>
> I was asked during a game once if IISS members could claims <BR>
> rights of salvage and I winged it and said no...I checked <BR>
> a treatise on the law of admirality at a library here in <BR>
> the US and I was right...No salvage for members of the military<BR>
<BR>
The military don't need salvage, they can take the ships as prizes !<BR>
<grin><BR>
<BR>
Frankie<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2000 07:34:09 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Website<BR>
<BR>
In beta....<BR>
<BR>
http://www.core.org.uk/<BR>
<BR>
Comments welcomed.<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
- -------------Dom Mooney---webmaster@bits.org.uk----------------<BR>
                  BITS - British Isles Traveller Support.<BR>
  http://www.bits.org.uk/              mailto:bits@bits.org.uk<BR>
Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
GURPS is a registered trademark of Steve Jackson Games, Inc.<BR>
BITS and CORE are trademarks of BITS UK Limited.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2000 16:44:20 +1000<BR>
From: "Katharine Whitchurch" <katts@globalfreeway.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re: IISS (was re: Warrant of Restoration)<BR>
<BR>
> From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
> Subject: Re: Warrant of the Restoration<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
> Who says the IISS is miltary? They are considerably *less* miltary than<BR>
> (for example) the Coast Guard. Nearest analogue I can think of is<BR>
> something like the Forestry Service, and the US Geologcal Survey (or<BR>
> the Coast and Geodetic Survey people).<BR>
<BR>
Toss bits of the CIA and the State Department into that, and I'll agree with<BR>
you.<BR>
<BR>
Ian Whitchurch<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2000 16:52:06 +1000<BR>
From: "Katharine Whitchurch" <katts@globalfreeway.com.au><BR>
Subject: re : Notes on building Heya<BR>
<BR>
> From: Qstor@aol.com<BR>
> Subject: Re: Notes on building Heya<BR>
><BR>
> What I have a hard time with is...When you have a TL 4 planet and a<BR>
> starport...Won't the TL 4 change very rapidly when the locals see what a<BR>
nice<BR>
> invention an air raft is and that they don't have to ride around on animal<BR>
> powered carts anymore....I think the presence of a starport would alter<BR>
the<BR>
> planets culture...The goods that could be imported would make life so much<BR>
> easier for the average member of society...I don't know if this has been<BR>
> covered before on the TML....Pardon me if it has....<BR>
<BR>
The problem is they probably cant afford to buy the air rafts, and if they<BR>
can, they probably buy them, rather than investing in the primary schools<BR>
and machine shops that could help them get to TL5.<BR>
<BR>
The result of this is a TL4 society with a thin overlay of Stellar tech<BR>
goods, and quite possibly a planetside culture with an inferiority complex<BR>
(why invest in a TL5 factory to build TL5 widgets, when they can be imported<BR>
?).<BR>
<BR>
It's an unfortunate fact of life that underdevelopment in the 3I tends to be<BR>
permanent.<BR>
<BR>
Ian Whitchurch<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2000 07:47:12 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Gencon UK<BR>
<BR>
At 20:50 -0400 6/4/00, "Matthew Bond" <mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk> wrote:<BR>
> >Yay! MAG BLAST!<BR>
>That is such a cool game. Dom got me hooked at Hebden, but I still have yet<BR>
>to get hold of a set :(<BR>
<BR>
Dom knows he is indirectly responsible for the sale of over 15 copies <BR>
of this game. Get it, you won't be disappointed!<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2000 07:43:48 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Gencon UK<BR>
<BR>
At 20:50 -0400 6/4/00, "Nick Bradbeer" <nickb@ndirect.co.uk> wrote:<BR>
> >Dom<BR>
> >Who has just realised that his company offices are over half the age<BR>
> >of the USA....<BR>
>"The difference between an Englishman and an American is that an Englishman<BR>
>thinks a hundred miles is a long way, whereas an American thinks a hundred<BR>
>years is a long time."<BR>
<BR>
Hmm. I'd make that a Southern Englishman ;-) The Home Counties are <BR>
so... close together and squashed up. Not like the Provinces....<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2000 19:11:53 +1200<BR>
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: Supernova<BR>
<BR>
> On Behalf Of Glenn Goffin<BR>
><BR>
> >Hey Hey, My My (Into the Black)<BR>
> >Hey hey, my my.<BR>
> >Our old sun is going to die !<BR>
><BR>
> That was excellent!<BR>
<BR>
Thanks.<BR>
<BR>
> >Of course, then there's "Monday Morning" by the Intergalactic<BR>
> >Touring Band, who also did "Space Commando".<BR>
><BR>
> Is that the one that whose chorus goes,<BR>
><BR>
> Tell me why tell me why tell me why<BR>
> I don't like Wundays<BR>
> I don't like Wundays<BR>
> I don't like Wundays<BR>
> I just want to shoooot<BR>
> The whole day down.<BR>
<BR>
Nope, it's not a filk as such, it's a marketing event from the seventies.<BR>
<BR>
"Monday Morning" is actually performed by Status Quo on the album, it's<BR>
about a planet that no longer has enough sunlight to heat it. I'll refrain<BR>
from commenting on the feasibility of the following description from the<BR>
album :<BR>
<BR>
" A Planet Called Monday / Golden Sunrise<BR>
<BR>
Without any permanent source of heat the inhabitants had to come uop with a<BR>
means of heating their planet. Thus was established the "Climb for Life";<BR>
the spiral staircases that brought their people to top of the sky where they<BR>
burned, their bodies giving off the energy to let others live. This "Golden<BR>
Sunrise" would be a sight the Intergalatic Touring Band would not forget<BR>
<BR>
Monday morning, everybody's yawning<BR>
got to get uo, get out,<BR>
go into town, mustn't be late<BR>
<BR>
Silent travellers, never speaking,<BR>
only the buzz of a terminal bubble,<BR>
cruising the airways, circling round<BR>
<BR>
Monday morning, everybody's crawling<BR>
spiral stairways to the sun<BR>
<BR>
Monday morning, everybody's yawning<BR>
Got to keep the fires high<BR>
Send them all up to the sky<BR>
Save us from eternal night<BR>
We need sunlight<BR>
<BR>
Monday morning, sirens calling<BR>
<BR>
Someone's got to keep this planet turning<BR>
Make us warm so we may rise again<BR>
Someone's got to keep the fires burning<BR>
No-one's cold when stairs unfold on<BR>
<BR>
Monday morning, Monday morning, Monday morning,<BR>
No-one's cold on Monday morning,<BR>
<BR>
Once we lazed on sun-soaked beaches frying<BR>
Golden people blessed with days of light<BR>
Now we only climb to keep from dying<BR>
No-one's cold when stairs unfold on<BR>
<BR>
Monday morning, everybody's crawling<BR>
spiral stairways, spiral stairways<BR>
Monday morning, Monday morning"<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2000 19:40:06 +1200<BR>
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: Supernova<BR>
<BR>
> On Behalf Of Glenn Goffin<BR>
<BR>
> Good idea.  We could do a filk of the song I'm thinking along<BR>
> those lines.  (The song I'm thinking of is by Cheap Trick, I<BR>
> think, and it goes, "I don't like Mondays."<BR>
<BR>
Actually, it's by the Boomtown Rats, Sir Bob Geldorf's old band.<BR>
<BR>
> It concerns a true story in California in the 1970s, as<BR>
> I recall, about a girl who was upset one Monday and came<BR>
> to school and shot a bunch of classmates.)<BR>
<BR>
Real interesting story too. She married someone weird afterwards, like<BR>
her father, her lawyer, or the prosecutor or something.<BR>
<BR>
The song was supposedly banned in the US at the time due to it possibly<BR>
imfluencing the jury, who had not yet been selected.<BR>
<BR>
Unfortunately, I tend to think of Lucan more than Dulinor for this song,<BR>
and the line "She wants to play with her toys a while"  makes me<BR>
think of what might happen when Ditzie reaches puberty !<BR>
<BR>
I actually _bought_ the music to this one back when I was playing in a band<BR>
called "No Idea". The song's in Eb and F, though it's mainly piano, so is<BR>
hard to do justice to on a guitar.<BR>
<BR>
Here's the real lyrics  :<BR>
<BR>
The silicon chip inside her head<BR>
Gets switched to overload<BR>
And nobody's gonna go to school today,<BR>
She's gonna make them stay at home,<BR>
And daddy doesn't understand it,<BR>
He always said she was good as gold,<BR>
And he can see no reasons<BR>
Cos there are no reasons<BR>
What reason do you need, to be sure ?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(Tell me why ?)  I don't like mondays,<BR>
(Tell me why ?)  I don't like mondays,<BR>
(Tell me why ?)  I don't like mondays,<BR>
I wanna shoo-oo-oo-oo - oo - oot<BR>
The whole day down.<BR>
<BR>
The Telex machine is kept so clean<BR>
And it types to a waiting world,<BR>
And Mother feels so shocked<BR>
Father's world is rocked,<BR>
And their thoughts turn to their own little girl.<BR>
Sweet sixteen ain't that peachy keen,<BR>
Now it ain't so neat to admit defeat,<BR>
They can see no reasons<BR>
Cos there _are_ no reasons<BR>
What reasons do you need ?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(Tell me why ?)  I don't like mondays,<BR>
(Tell me why ?)  I don't like mondays,<BR>
(Tell me why ?)  I don't like mondays,I wanna shoo-oo-oo-oo - oo - oot<BR>
The whole day down.<BR>
The whole day down, down, down, shoot it all down...<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
            C                        G<BR>
And all the playing's stopped in the playground now<BR>
                   (Machine gun Staccato)<BR>
She wants to play   with -  her -  toys -  a - while,<BR>
And school's out early and soon we'll be learning<BR>
                       (Machine gun Staccato)<BR>
And the lesson today is how -  to - die.<BR>
<BR>
And then the bullhorn crackles and the captain tackles,<BR>
With the problems of the how's and why's<BR>
And he can see no reasons<BR>
Cos there are no reasons<BR>
what reason do you need to die ?<BR>
<BR>
(Tell me why ?)  I don't like mondays,<BR>
(Tell me why ?)  I don't like mondays,<BR>
(Tell me why ?)  I don't like mondays,<BR>
I wanna shoo-oo-oo-oo - oo - oot<BR>
The whole day down.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Frankie<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2000 04:06:18 -0400<BR>
From: "DaveShayne" <daveshayne@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller is the #1 RPG, but only barely...<BR>
<BR>
>Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 22:33:56 -0400<BR>
>From: "Steven E. Ehrbar" <ehrbar@SoftHome.net><BR>
>Subject: Re: Traveller is the #1 RPG, but only barely...<BR>
><BR>
>From: "Eric Henry" <ehenry@newberlin.org><BR>
>> well i did my five votes part ;)<BR>
><BR>
>I alone am roughly 10% of the total votes cast, although I spread them<BR>
among<BR>
>Trav, GURPS, and Ars Magica. (Until they imposed this new ID thing, my<BR>
>scripts were casting ~75 votes a day for my benificiary of the moment<BR>
>through a whole bunch of web anonymizing services.)<BR>
<BR>
The cheat method now would seem to require signing up for several different<BR>
"free" email adresses. (Please note I have no intention of doing so.)<BR>
<BR>
I actually wrote a little note to the person who runs the vote asking if<BR>
vote tallies are going to be reset. (It seems to me that instituting anti-<BR>
stuffing measures now after all of the ballot stuffing that has gone on<BR>
seems rather silly to me.) As it stands now GURPS will be the most<BR>
popular RPG of all time because it was ahead in cheating when cheating<BR>
was banned. (sort of.)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2000 02:59:07 -0500<BR>
From: tim@premier.net<BR>
Subject: Forine 1 long<BR>
<BR>
<FontFamily><param>Times New Roman</param>Astrography:<bigger><bigger><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<smaller><smaller>Forine (1533) is one of 32 systems in the subsector, Dis=<BR>
trict 268, a <BR>
backwater subsector of the Spinward Marches.  Forine is located in the <BR>
coreward/ trailing corner of the subsector, Elixabeth (1532) a semi-colony=<BR>
 <BR>
of Forine, is located just coreward of the system.  <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<bold>System Data</bold>:<bigger><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<smaller>Forine  (1533) D3129B8-A   HI Na In Ic 610Na M9 V<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
 Located 38.8 AU from the systems young M9 V star, it has an orbital <BR>
period of just over 1000 standard years with a rotation of 17 days.  <BR>
Forine=92s diameter of 5,600 km surrounds a near standard molten core of <BR>
.94 standard.  With an average density and a mass of .052 the gravity is <BR>
.51 standard.  Its axial tilt of 3 degrees and orbital eccentricity of .00=<BR>
07 <BR>
leaves the world locked in an unending winter.  Its rotational period of 1=<BR>
7 <BR>
days creates day and nights of about 8 days in length.  With its long <BR>
orbital distance non-seasonal weather and long rotational periods, Forine <BR>
is simply a large ice ball.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Hippidos<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Besides Forine, the system possesses only a large gas giant known as <BR>
Hippidos.  Surrounded by a series of near orbit planetoids, Hippidos <BR>
experience deadly electric storms between it and its moons.  These <BR>
storms make skimming a dangerous procedure for inexperienced pilots, <BR>
leading to the development of skimming guides designed to lead <BR>
starships through Hippidos=92 atmosphere.  For further information on the <BR>
Hippidos, guide ships see special notes.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Geography:<bigger><bigger><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<smaller><smaller>Forine=92s astrography has created an ice ball with no a=<BR>
tmosphere and little <BR>
water.  Yet, this inhospitable physical geography has not prevented the <BR>
growth of the world=92s human geography.  Indeed the whole planet is <BR>
almost completely covered by a massive metal structure, in which its 6 <BR>
billion inhabitants live, work, and flourish.  This creates an eerie <BR>
depressing sight of black metal, colored plastics and shinning ice. <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Physical:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
The surface of Forine consists of three plates referred to as the <BR>
Northwest, Southwest and Eastern plates.  The eastern plate is the <BR>
largest of the three.  However, the locals divide the world into the 1st <BR>
hemisphere and 2nd hemisphere, with the first hemisphere being the most <BR>
important.  <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Here the three great encircling mountain ranges, Northwesterly, <BR>
Southwesterly and Easterly begin.  Created by the meeting of the three <BR>
plates these mountains almost encircle the whole of Forine. Yet, on the 1s=<BR>
t <BR>
hemisphere they do not touch.   There exist at the point where the <BR>
westerly ranges approach each other the only active volcano, located on <BR>
the southern tip of the Northwesterly, Hellmund, spilling warming molten <BR>
rock into the world=92s largest body of water.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
This body of water, The Spiegal Ocean, crosses the geological center of <BR>
the 1st hemisphere.  Though, consisting of some free floating water; <BR>
caused by the molten rock of Hellmund, the vast majority of the ocean <BR>
has a frozen ice cap.  The second greatest body of water is on the <BR>
southwestern plat just into the 2nd hemisphere, and is known as Firlymir. =<BR>
 <BR>
Running between the Northwesterly and Southwesterly Mountain <BR>
ranges there exist three Lakes: Forine, Turfser, and Swean, all of which <BR>
are covered by ice.  The other sources of water are mostly found in four <BR>
minor lakes scattered across the 2nd hemisphere.  <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Though there are no rivers on Forine, there are a series of great ice <BR>
fissures.  Formed by the rising of warm water to the surface these <BR>
fissures often extend for hundreds of miles away from the lacks, oceans, <BR>
and sea.  These fissures are relatively narrow with the widest only <BR>
reaching a few score meters in width.  Nevertheless, these are <BR>
geologically unstable and thus left untouched.   <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Human Urban:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Offworlders commonly except the belief that Forine=92s surface is one <BR>
gigantic city.  Yet, with just a glance at the physical geography of the <BR>
world one can see this is a myth.  The great mountain ranges, ice water <BR>
bodies and fissures prevent the total urbanization of the planet.  Instead=<BR>
 <BR>
it is covered by thousands of large cities and hundreds of other <BR>
urban/factor dome centers connected by hundreds metal tubes <BR>
containing turbo trains.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
The greatest and most important of these  is Eisberg with a population of <BR>
one billion.  Surrounding the Spiegal Ocean, the city expands to cover <BR>
over two thirds of the 1st Hemisphere.  Consisting of the capital, finical=<BR>
 <BR>
center and starport, this city is the main destination of offworlders, and=<BR>
 is <BR>
thus the main reason for the myth.  The rest of the world population is <BR>
located in thousands of lesser cities.  Most of the citizens of these citi=<BR>
es <BR>
work to survive away from the crushing city of Eisberg.  <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Eisberg consist of four concentric zones extending out from the Spiegal <BR>
Ocean, named for the body of water found in them.  The first of these is <BR>
the wealth city center or Spiegal. It is from here the world=92s economy a=<BR>
nd <BR>
government is ran.  With vast domes concealing great builders.  <BR>
Squeezed between the city center and commerce zone, is the Forine <BR>
Zone.   Here the poverty stricken, and wage slaves livening in ghettos <BR>
gather in hopes of finding a new life in the surrounding zones.  The <BR>
Turfser or commerce zone handles most of the internal trade of the city <BR>
and planet.  Here suburbs and shopping centers mix with light industry.  <BR>
The most famous attractions in Turfser are the ice manors, created out of <BR>
metal and ice. These palaces are the retreats of the planets SwordWorld <BR>
elite=92s.  The final zone, Swean, is the industrial zone.  Taking in much=<BR>
 of <BR>
the natural resources of the world, the heavy industry, chemical plants, <BR>
and power generators, pump wealth and pollution into the rest of Eisberg<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Tim Reynolds<BR>
tim@premier.net <BR>
225-334-5063<BR>
- ------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
Getting an education was a bit like a communicable <BR>
sexual disease.  It made you unsuitable for <BR>
a lot of jobs and then you had the urge to pass it on.<BR>
<BR>
Terry Pratchett <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 23:57:35 -0800<BR>
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re Gold Plated Scouts<BR>
<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz> writes:<BR>
>Huh. A TL15 40% flicker Black Globe costs MCr1000 and easily fits in a<BR>
>100DT J2M2 hull. Add a few nice sensors and there ya go. BTW aside from<BR>
>Black Globes the esiest way to jack the price of a vehicle is to equip<BR>
>it with an ESA field generator, but that's probably cheating for a<BR>
>scout ship. An assault shuttle, OTOH...<BR>
><BR>
 Hardly superfluous on an exploration and survey oriented scout. ESA is<BR>
wonderful for keeping critters off the ship. Except those few who are<BR>
shielded against current flows (such is theoretically possible, but I'm not<BR>
aware of any IRL) and static charges. Flyers might not die instantly, but<BR>
will ususally do so upon grounding. *Zot!*<BR>
<BR>
And since some of the undesireables might be like Wypoc's 44000kg flying<BR>
pouncer... milspec ESA would also be a GoodThing!<BR>
<BR>
William F. Hostman  |  "Smith & Wesson: THe original Point and Click<BR>
interface!"<BR>
Aramis 0602 C55A364-C S kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge-<BR>
533<BR>
aramis@gci.net http://home.gci.net/~aramis Vilani: uilamaanamti sirohbrankilin<BR>
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn- t4-- tt+ to- tg-- ru+ ge 3i+ c+ jt-() au+ st- ls<BR>
pi+() ta+ he+(-) kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge- pi+<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2000 00:07:03 -0800<BR>
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re VLBA<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Writes:<BR>
>The Imperial Star Survey will be just barely considered "astronomy".<BR>
><BR>
>But as I figure it, they'll set up several *big* space telescopes (at<BR>
>least 4) a parsec apart. For a 4 scope "array", they'd be at the apexes<BR>
>of a tetrahedron a parsec on a side.<BR>
><BR>
>While there's no way to use them as a synthetic aperture array, you<BR>
>*can* use them as a *very* long baseline for determining stellar<BR>
>positions.<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
Leonard, they can be used as a form composite arry, given a willingess to<BR>
have opservations take years, or by jumping the raw data to a central<BR>
location, and feeding it to the collimating ('s correct term?) software.<BR>
Not realtime, but hey, astronomy is by definition non-realtime.<BR>
<BR>
William F. Hostman  |  "Smith & Wesson: THe original Point and Click<BR>
interface!"<BR>
Aramis 0602 C55A364-C S kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge-<BR>
533<BR>
aramis@gci.net http://home.gci.net/~aramis Vilani: uilamaanamti sirohbrankilin<BR>
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn- t4-- tt+ to- tg-- ru+ ge 3i+ c+ jt-() au+ st- ls<BR>
pi+() ta+ he+(-) kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge- pi+<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2000 09:39:18 +0100 <BR>
From: Matt Bond <MBOND@karpad.demon.co.uk><BR>
Subject: RE: TL disparities in the OTU<BR>
<BR>
From: Steven E. Ehrbar [mailto:ehrbar@SoftHome.net]<BR>
> From: "Ian Ferguson" <ian@vax2.concordia.ca><BR>
> > There is certainly a good arguement to made for that POV.  On the<BR>
> > other hand, I had always assumed (perhaps unwisely) that the great<BR>
> > majority of worlds occupied by humans were colonized from offworld,<BR>
> > presumably using TL 9+ ships.<BR>
> <BR>
<snip><BR>
> Now, another effect of tech advancement is a loss of general <BR>
> knowledge about<BR>
> earlier techniques.  You can see this in Cuba today, with <BR>
> plows tied to the<BR>
> horns of oxen -- the tractor led to loss of knowledge of the <BR>
> yoke.  So, when<BR>
> the tractors failed and parts could not be purchased, the <BR>
> farmers didn't<BR>
> just drop to 19th-century plow technology; they fell all the <BR>
> way back to<BR>
> fourteenth century farming techniques.<BR>
<BR>
Actually, variations of yoke have been around for thousands of years.<BR>
Since at least Sumerian times, say... 2000 BC? You may have been<BR>
thinking of the Horse Collar, which was developed c. C14.<BR>
<BR>
Otherwise, an excellent thought-provoking post.<BR>
<BR>
Matt<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2000 00:10:19 -1000<BR>
From: Lewis Roberts <lewis@mauigateway.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Astronomy in the 57th Century]<BR>
<BR>
 <BR>
  shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) wrote <BR>
>The Imperial Star Survey will be just barely considered "astronomy". <BR>
<BR>
>But as I figure it, they'll set up several *big* space telescopes (at<BR>
>least 4) a parsec apart. For a 4 scope "array", they'd be at the apexes<BR>
>of a tetrahedron a parsec on a side. <BR>
<BR>
>While there's no way to use them as a synthetic aperture array, you<BR>
>*can* use them as a *very* long baseline for determining stellar<BR>
>positions. <BR>
 <BR>
You are probably better off doing wide angle astrometry with a long baseline<BR>
interferometry.  This is the other job that interferometers can do other than<BR>
synthetic aperature imaging.  The technique determines very accurate stellar<BR>
positions.  The Space Interferometry Mission from JPL is going to do this as one<BR>
of its main tasks.  There's a neat web site which explains everything about it.<BR>
The Naval Prototype Optical Interferometer from the US Naval Observatory is also<BR>
doing this with a 300m baseline.  It also has a web site.<BR>
<BR>
Lewis Roberts<BR>
- -------------------------------------------------<BR>
Q:What do prisoners use to call each other?<BR>
A:Cell phones.<BR>
<BR>
lewis@mauigateway.net  <BR>
- -------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
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------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2266</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
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Traveller-digest       Friday, April 7 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2266<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
OT: Lord of the Rings<BR>
Somewhat OT: The Mad Scientist Test<BR>
Duelling Penguins<BR>
Re: Gencon UK<BR>
Re: Duelling Penguins & Triples: Was Traveller Bibliography: Was District 268 Canon<BR>
RE: Supernova<BR>
Re: Arcologies<BR>
Re: Duelling Penguins & Triples: Was Traveller Bibliography: Was District 268 Canon<BR>
Leeds vs. Saints (utterly OT)<BR>
Re: TL disparities in the OTU<BR>
RE: Arcologies<BR>
Oath of Fealty<BR>
Loeskalth<BR>
Re: Astronomy in the 57th Century<BR>
Re: Duelling Penguins & Triples: Was Traveller Bibliography: Was District 268 Canon<BR>
Re: Gencon UK<BR>
Re: Gencon UK<BR>
Re: Gencon UK<BR>
RE: L+ Megacorp (was RS)<BR>
Re: Notes on building Heya<BR>
Re: RS<BR>
RE: Supernova<BR>
Re: Traveller Bibliography: Was District 268 Canon<BR>
G:T - Suitability of Brilliant Lances & Battle Riders<BR>
Re: Warrant of the Restoration<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2000 23:17:27 +1200<BR>
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: OT: Lord of the Rings<BR>
<BR>
Completely off topic, but people might like to know, <BR>
<BR>
The first  Lord of the Rings Movie Trailer has been released <BR>
at www.thelordoftherings.net<BR>
<BR>
The site is very busy !<BR>
<BR>
Frankie<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2000 06:37:38 -0500<BR>
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: Somewhat OT: The Mad Scientist Test<BR>
<BR>
For the gearheads among us:<BR>
<BR>
http://www.emode.com/tests/mad_scientist.html<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2000 12:44:24 +0100<BR>
From: "Derrick Jones" <dojones.whitestar@btinternet.com><BR>
Subject: Duelling Penguins<BR>
<BR>
Matt wrote...<BR>
<BR>
>I run. You (being an ex-military type chappie) quickly gain on me as I grab<BR>
>for my inhaler after about 50 yards.  <BR>
yes the movement rate of my Land Rover probably is slightly higher than your <BR>
foot slogging....<BR>
<BR>
>I attempt to hide, but your superior  (DJ: Laugh!!!!!)<BR>
>military training quickly overcomes my feeble attempt at camoflage. I grovel<BR>
>pathetically to no avail (you heartless b*stard! <g>). <BR>
<BR>
Ah, you remember my interrogation techniques.....<BR>
<BR>
>Then after being<BR>
>forced to duel, as we stand back to back, loaded Penguin in hand, on the<BR>
>count of 1 we both step forward, but rather than proceeding further on '2',<BR>
>I whirl round and beat you upside da head wi' da penguin. See point 4 above.<BR>
<BR>
Remember, this Amateur has no experience of duelling whatsoever, so I would<BR>
turn up, with my wild penguin flapping its tiny flippers frantically, accompanied<BR>
by my nominated second who will ensure fair play... Would Miss Ditzie please<BR>
step forward. Suitably attired for the occasion...<BR>
<BR>
Answer that one, b*st*rd!!!! <g><BR>
<BR>
I stand victorious! (provided the young lady would deem to turn up for the fun, <BR>
otherwise, put Landrover into reverse.......)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(this is probably getting a bit silly...)<BR>
<BR>
Derrick<BR>
<BR>
Derrick Jones<BR>
St Helens<BR>
Lancashire UK<BR>
http://www.btinternet.com/~dojones.whitestar<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2000 12:52:28 +0100<BR>
From: "Derrick Jones" <dojones.whitestar@btinternet.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Gencon UK<BR>
<BR>
Dom wrote:<BR>
>Dom knows he is indirectly responsible for the sale of over 15 copies <BR>
>of this game. Get it, you won't be disappointed!<BR>
<BR>
My gaming group tried it once, with the copy I borrowed from Dom, and<BR>
then promptly went out and bought three copies!!!!<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Matt wrote:<BR>
>Count me in.<BR>
>Rugby, a meat pie and a bovril at half time, and a few pints... ahhh, bliss!<BR>
<BR>
Better still: A few pints, Rugby, two meat pies and a couple of pints at half time<BR>
and a few pints in the pub afterwards, followed by an evening of beer and <BR>
celebration and beer....(did I forget the beer?)<BR>
<BR>
Saints play Leeds tonight, Matt... Pity I'm working... mmmm Could I finish<BR>
this in time?... Better go...<BR>
<BR>
Derrick<BR>
<BR>
Derrick Jones<BR>
St Helens<BR>
Lancashire UK<BR>
http://www.btinternet.com/~dojones.whitestar<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2000 06:57:38 -0500<BR>
From: "Shadowcat" <meow@advancenet.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Duelling Penguins & Triples: Was Traveller Bibliography: Was District 268 Canon<BR>
<BR>
you realize that said projectile penguin could be even more <BR>
dangerous, given an old style german pointed helmet, would <BR>
they count as an armor piercing weapon?<BR>
<BR>
And since they land fighting with melee weapons, would this be <BR>
counted as the first example of a Guided Muscle?<BR>
<BR>
Or is that just for the heat seeking assault clams?<BR>
<BR>
but I will quit telling jokes just for the `alibut<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2000 08:42:02 -0400<BR>
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net><BR>
Subject: RE: Supernova<BR>
<BR>
>Real interesting story too. She married someone weird afterwards, like<BR>
>her father, her lawyer, or the prosecutor or something.<BR>
<BR>
Her *father* married someone weird (her cellmate from when she was at<BR>
juvenile hall).<BR>
<BR>
>The song was supposedly banned in the US at the time due to it possibly<BR>
>imfluencing the jury, who had not yet been selected.<BR>
<BR>
Nope. It was not banned, although some radio stations chose not to play it.<BR>
It didn't have anything to do with influencing the jury, it had to do with<BR>
potential loss of advertising for individual radio stations. You see, at one<BR>
time, people were quite reluctant to make money off of tragic events. Still,<BR>
despite the fact that some stations didn't play the song, it did get radio<BR>
airplay.<BR>
<BR>
The sale of the record was certainly not banned.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2000 10:31:51 EDT<BR>
From: Kagehira@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Arcologies<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 4/7/00 3:12:32 AM Pacific Daylight Time, <BR>
owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
> Re: Arcologies<BR>
>  <BR>
>  At 08:51 PM 04/06/2000 -0400, Bruce and Doug wrote:<BR>
>  >Bruce Johnson writes:<BR>
>  ><BR>
>  > > At one point, I saw an outline about how a single arcology, essentially<BR>
>  > >  a 1 cubic mile in size could easily hold the population of Tucson <BR>
(then<BR>
>  > >  a few hundred thousand) allowing the rest of the sprawling city to<BR>
>  > >  revert to the wild.<BR>
>  ><BR>
>  >"Just think of it as evolution in action" - Graffiti on the side of Todos<BR>
>  >Santos, an arcology in a book whose title and author I forget. It covered<BR>
>  >exactly what you have just stated, namely, the first years of a newly<BR>
>  >established arcology in the LA basin (around Hollywood, I think).<BR>
>  <BR>
>  <BR>
>  Too, take a look at Peter Hamilton's books on "The Reality Dysfunction" - <BR>
>  In it, Earth is composed entirely of arcologies, with what's essentially <BR>
>  wasteland in-between, and connected by tube trains... The <BR>
cities/arcologies <BR>
>  essentially go straight up into the thin air...<BR>
<BR>
Or 'The World Inside' (IIRC) by Robert Silverberg.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2000 15:35:20 +0100<BR>
From: "Greg Aldridge" <Greg.Aldridge@marconicomms.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Duelling Penguins & Triples: Was Traveller Bibliography: Was District 268 Canon<BR>
<BR>
> you realize that said projectile penguin could be even more<BR>
> dangerous, given an old style german pointed helmet, would<BR>
> they count as an armor piercing weapon?<BR>
<BR>
No.  They only count as armour piercing if their beak is teflon coated ;-><BR>
<BR>
Greg.<BR>
<BR>
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
     Greg Aldridge      | "Since light travels faster than sound, isn't<BR>
   Software Engineer,   | that why some people appear bright until you<BR>
   EASAMS Engineering   |              hear them speak?"<BR>
        Systems         |<BR>
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
                 Email: Greg.Aldridge@marconicomms.com<BR>
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
IMTU tc tm tn t4+ tg ru+ ge(+) 3i+ c+ jt au- ls+ pi ta-- he as vi sy+ so<BR>
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2000 15:20:20 +0100 <BR>
From: Matt Bond <MBOND@karpad.demon.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Leeds vs. Saints (utterly OT)<BR>
<BR>
> Matt wrote:<BR>
> >Count me in.<BR>
> >Rugby, a meat pie and a Bovril at half time, and a few <BR>
> pints... ahhh, bliss!<BR>
> <BR>
> Better still: A few pints, Rugby, two meat pies and a couple <BR>
> of pints at half time<BR>
> and a few pints in the pub afterwards, followed by an evening <BR>
> of beer and <BR>
> celebration and beer....(did I forget the beer?)<BR>
> <BR>
> Saints play Leeds tonight, Matt... Pity I'm working... mmmm <BR>
> Could I finish<BR>
> this in time?... Better go...<BR>
> <BR>
> Derrick<BR>
<BR>
Well if you do decide to come over to watch a thrashing <g> perhaps we<BR>
could meet up for a pint or three...<BR>
<BR>
Matt<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2000 11:32:13 -0400<BR>
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca><BR>
Subject: Re: TL disparities in the OTU<BR>
<BR>
Steven Ehrbar writes:<BR>
>From: "Ian Ferguson" <ian@vax2.concordia.ca><BR>
>>There is certainly a good arguement to made for that POV.  On the<BR>
>>other hand, I had always assumed (perhaps unwisely) that the great<BR>
>>majority of worlds occupied by humans were colonized from offworld,<BR>
>>presumably using TL 9+ ships.<BR>
>Sure.  But it's difficult to maintain full TL without a fully developed<BR>
>industrial base, so the colony will probably be one or two behind to begin<BR>
>with.  Many colony worlds also were founded during the First Imperium,<BR>
>meaning they were cut off from trade (including spare parts and other things<BR>
>the local colony was not equipped to make) for over a thousand years.<BR>
<BR>
	This would cover the worlds that were colonized early, had low<BR>
	Pop, were cut off, and could not recover (a thousand years is a lot<BR>
	of time to increase Pop and advance TL, especially if you start with<BR>
	lots of knowledge).  I could see this for worlds with restrictive<BR>
	political or religeous institutions that encouraged small Pop and/or<BR>
	low TL, or for worlds that limit Pop due to local conditions...<BR>
	there may be a few possible scenarios.<BR>
<BR>
>Now, another effect of tech advancement is a loss of general knowledge about<BR>
>earlier techniques.  You can see this in Cuba today, with plows tied to the<BR>
>horns of oxen -- the tractor led to loss of knowledge of the yoke.  So, when<BR>
>the tractors failed and parts could not be purchased, the farmers didn't<BR>
>just drop to 19th-century plow technology; they fell all the way back to<BR>
>fourteenth century farming techniques.<BR>
<BR>
	Another example is blacksmithing, now a rare skill with many techniques<BR>
	apparently lost.  OTOH, having a few text books that detail how TL 6<BR>
	tractors work would make it much easier to regain technology.<BR>
<BR>
>Finally, population growth can dilute technology.  That relatively small<BR>
>colony world of 100,000 people when the Long Night fell might have had a<BR>
>population of twenty million when trade was restored a thousand years later.<BR>
>Even if all the old machinery was still working, it's divided two hundred<BR>
>times more thinly; a lot of low tech will become prevalent.<BR>
<BR>
	Bear in mind that the society has had a thousand years to advance<BR>
	itself.  This is a long time even if you don't start out knowing<BR>
	what sort of advancement is possible.  What would have happened if<BR>
	people living in 1000 CE understood physics, chemistry, biology,<BR>
	engineering, etc. even better than we do today?  How far could<BR>
	they have come?<BR>
<BR>
Peez<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2000 10:37:32 -0500<BR>
From: "Derek Dees" <djdees@mm.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Arcologies<BR>
<BR>
The author was Larry Niven and the book was Oath of Fealty. My personal<BR>
favorite by him.<BR>
<BR>
Derek<BR>
djdees@mm.com<BR>
http://www.mm.com/user/djdees<BR>
<BR>
Sarchasm: The gulf between the author of sarcastic wit and the person who<BR>
doesn't get it.<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of<BR>
> Damage169@cs.com<BR>
> Sent: Thursday, April 06, 2000 7:52 PM<BR>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> Subject: Arcologies<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> Bruce Johnson writes:<BR>
><BR>
> > At one point, I saw an outline about how a single arcology, essentially<BR>
> >  a 1 cubic mile in size could easily hold the population of Tucson (then<BR>
> >  a few hundred thousand) allowing the rest of the sprawling city to<BR>
> >  revert to the wild.<BR>
><BR>
> "Just think of it as evolution in action" - Graffiti on the side of Todos<BR>
> Santos, an arcology in a book whose title and author I forget. It covered<BR>
> exactly what you have just stated, namely, the first years of a newly<BR>
> established arcology in the LA basin (around Hollywood, I think).<BR>
><BR>
> Doug G.<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2000 08:40:50 -0700<BR>
From: scharlto@ifsna.com<BR>
Subject: Oath of Fealty<BR>
<BR>
Oath of Fealty, by Larry Niven and Jerry Pournelle.  A very good<BR>
book; more of a mystery or technothriller than SF, and the book<BR>
has some of the most weel thought-out characters of the<BR>
Niven/Pournelle bibliography (most of which are pretty good<BR>
reads).<BR>
<BR>
Doug (Damage169@cs.com) wrote:<BR>
Subject: Arcologies<BR>
<BR>
> "Just think of it as evolution in action" - Graffiti on the<BR>
side of Todos<BR>
> Santos, an arcology in a book whose title and author I forget.<BR>
It covered<BR>
> exactly what you have just stated, namely, the first years of<BR>
a newly<BR>
> established arcology in the LA basin (around Hollywood, I<BR>
think).<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Steven Charlton<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2000 16:01:25 GMT<BR>
From: bill@phalanx1.demon.co.uk (Bill Hindley)<BR>
Subject: Loeskalth<BR>
<BR>
Does anyonr have any info on the Loeskalth (Megatraveller Imperial<BR>
Encyclopedia)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2000 08:57:32 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Astronomy in the 57th Century<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) wrote<BR>
><BR>
>> > We could take a subsidized merchant & fill its whole cargo<BR>
>> > hold full of batteries. Then we run the whole observatory<BR>
>> > (and the subbie itself) off of the batteries. When it runs dry<BR>
>> > we switch to the next subbie. We simply have new "battery ships"<BR>
>> > jump in at appropriate intervals.<BR>
>> ><BR>
>> > Alternatively we could run the station off of batteries<BR>
>> > and periodically recharge them by turning on the stations<BR>
>> > fusion plant once a month or so but I suspect that this<BR>
>> > would interfere with long term observations.<BR>
>> <BR>
>> Use fuel cells. Just ship out "tankers" loaded with LOX and LH2. The<BR>
>> unneeded water can be shipped back.<BR>
><BR>
> Fuel cells are a good idea but in Traveller batteries have <BR>
> a higher energy density than fuel cells, especially considering <BR>
> fuel needs, which is why I picked batteries.<BR>
<BR>
But "energy density" isn't terribly relevant on a fixed installation. <BR>
<BR>
> A fuel cell produces 0.5 MW per m^3 at TL 7, 0.75 at TL<BR>
> 12, 1.5 at TL 14, and 1.75 at TL 16. They use 0.3 kl/hour/MW<BR>
> of fuel at Tl 7, 0.25 at TL 12, and 0.2 at TL 14+<BR>
> Therefore a 15 MW fuel cell and 1000 hours (42 days) fuel <BR>
> at TL 14 will need 2,000 kl (143 displacement tons) of fuel.<BR>
> The fuel cell itself will take up 10 kl. At TL 12 the<BR>
> fuel cell needs 5,000 kl fuel & occupies 20 kl itself.<BR>
> (A total volume of 359 tons)<BR>
><BR>
> Batteries at TL 14 store 2.5 MW per m^3. To get a 1,000<BR>
> hour duration on the battery we multiply output x 0.004.<BR>
> Therefore to get 15 MW/hour for 1,000 hours we need a 3,750<BR>
> MW battery. This battery will take up 1,500 kl (107 displacement<BR>
> tons). At TL 12 it takes up 2,500 kl (179 tons).<BR>
<BR>
> Therefore, at least at TL 12-15, the batteries are a better <BR>
> use of space albeit a more expensive one.<BR>
<BR>
The problem is that batteries have to be *charged* (unless they are<BR>
primary cells, in which case they have to be *replaced* when they run<BR>
down). <BR>
<BR>
Given the enormous size of the telescopes, the extra space for the fuel<BR>
cells hardly matters. And they are an actual power *source* rather than<BR>
a power *storage* device.<BR>
<BR>
With batteries, you have to run a reactor to recharge them. And this<BR>
will take a fair amount of time, as the recharge rate is limited if you<BR>
want the batteries to last more than a few charge/discharge cycles. <BR>
<BR>
With fuel cells, you need regular deliveries of LH2 and LOX. Which<BR>
involve having a ship with an active reactor nearby.<BR>
<BR>
But the *total time* that you have an active reactor around over the<BR>
course of a year will be *lower* with the fuel cells.<BR>
<BR>
And since there *will* be (monthly?) visits by ships for supplies and<BR>
transfer of personell and data (gotta have the latest issues of those<BR>
astronomical journals!), you can combine the refuel runs with the ship<BR>
visits, ths maximizing the time available for observing.<BR>
<BR>
>> Sure, but you'll want observatories scattered throughout the Imperium<BR>
>> because that way you can get several *centuries* of observatyions of<BR>
>> the same star, thanks to light lag. <BR>
><BR>
> Oh sure you will. I am simply saying that the Universities<BR>
> that see the event first will have it studied to death before <BR>
> the universities in the Core even see it. If you are an Astronomy<BR>
> grad student looking to do new work why would you want to <BR>
> attend the University of Sylea (Capitol/Core) where all you<BR>
> can examine was seen centuries before by others. You might<BR>
> very well be able to combine data gathered elsewhere & do a<BR>
> brilliant synthesis but you will have less opportunity to do<BR>
> new work. Now given Vilani influences on Imperial culture<BR>
> this may or may not be important in your TU. but in my TU.<BR>
> astronomers are still interested in new stuff.<BR>
<BR>
On the other hand, you may have a new (or better) instrument to observe<BR>
it with. Also, I bet that students are carefully kept "innocent"<BR>
regarding some interesting phenomena that are about to reach "their"<BR>
observatory, just to see how well they do at noticing them. :-)<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2000 08:53:14<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Duelling Penguins & Triples: Was Traveller Bibliography: Was District 268 Canon<BR>
<BR>
At 06:57 AM 4/7/2000 -0500, you wrote:<BR>
>you realize that said projectile penguin could be even more <BR>
>dangerous, given an old style german pointed helmet, would <BR>
>they count as an armor piercing weapon?<BR>
<BR>
I almost put a line in ACQ under the Armor Piercing Ammo paragraph stating<BR>
that penguins have a 1 in 6 chance of hitting beak first, and counting as<BR>
AP, but thought better of Dom's sanity.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2000 08:58:53<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Gencon UK<BR>
<BR>
At 12:33 AM 4/7/2000 +0100, Nick wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>"The difference between an Englishman and an American is that an Englishman<BR>
>thinks a hundred miles is a long way, whereas an American thinks a hundred<BR>
>years is a long time."<BR>
<BR>
We regularly get British tourists who inquire about driving to Disneyland<BR>
"for the day."  Disneyland is 450 miles, and two mountain ranges, from San<BR>
Francisco.<BR>
<BR>
>(Who's posting FAR too much lately.)<BR>
<BR>
Never!<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2000 09:01:14<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Gencon UK<BR>
<BR>
At 12:37 AM 4/7/2000 +0100, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>>I know you're a 49ers fan, Doug, but if you wanted to I could organise you<BR>
>>a ticket for a Rugby League match while you're over here. See how real men<BR>
>>play, without pads!!! I'm certain you would be shown some hospitality by<BR>
>>some of us northern lacals....<BR>
><BR>
>Count me in.<BR>
<BR>
This sounds like a lot of fun.  A friend who is an expat Brit grabbed me by<BR>
the lapels and shouted that I had to go see a "real football match" if at<BR>
all possible", but I'll accept rugby.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2000 09:11:49<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Gencon UK<BR>
<BR>
At 07:43 AM 4/7/2000 +0100, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>>"The difference between an Englishman and an American is that an Englishman<BR>
>>thinks a hundred miles is a long way, whereas an American thinks a hundred<BR>
>>years is a long time."<BR>
><BR>
>Hmm. I'd make that a Southern Englishman ;-) The Home Counties are <BR>
>so... close together and squashed up. Not like the Provinces....<BR>
<BR>
LOL!  California is almost twice as large as the entire UK!  San Bernadino<BR>
County itself is almost 33,000 square miles..  Compared to the City and<BR>
County of San Francisco which is 49sq mi.  Or 47.2  Or 50.  Depends on<BR>
whole you talk to.<BR>
<BR>
ObTrav:  Differences ion perspectives in people from different worlds.  A<BR>
life-long resident of a high tech dome might assume that the "short walk"<BR>
is a matter of a few hundred meters, when the local outdoorsman actaully<BR>
meant 10km.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2000 09:14:52<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: RE: L+ Megacorp (was RS)<BR>
<BR>
At 11:02 AM 4/6/2000 -0700, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Anyway, the first thing I'd do if I ever won the lottery<BR>
<BR>
<snip><BR>
<BR>
Now be honest Jesse, the first thing you'd do is hop a plane to Oregon to<BR>
establish residensy, the have Mark take you shopping...<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2000 09:21:51<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Notes on building Heya<BR>
<BR>
>From: Qstor@aol.com<BR>
><BR>
>What I have a hard time with is...When you have a TL 4 planet <BR>
>and a  starport...Won't the TL 4 change very rapidly when the <BR>
>locals see what a nice invention an air raft is and that they <BR>
>don't have to ride around on animal powered carts anymore<BR>
<BR>
What you ignore is cultural imperatives.<BR>
<BR>
In the case of Heya, the locals made a conscious decision to renounce<BR>
technology.  To them, it is just *wrong* to relay on machines for your<BR>
daily labors.<BR>
<BR>
That and economic factors.  Sure the Sudan would love to have a pile of<BR>
A-10 Warthogs and M-1A1s to use, but they don't have the base to support them.<BR>
<BR>
I remember a story.  A Peace Corps team had brought a small tractor out to<BR>
the populace of a small village in SE Asia.  Taught the locals how to use<BR>
it, refuel it, do basic maintenance.  Promising to come back with more<BR>
fuel.  When they came back the thing was on an altar draped with<BR>
offerings...<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2000 09:24:47<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: RS<BR>
<BR>
At 05:25 PM 4/6/2000 -0700, you wrote:<BR>
>Via electronic medium on 4/2/00 12:53 AM, Hiroshi.Estigarribia@gmx.de issued<BR>
>forth:<BR>
><BR>
>> BTW: It may be the case that the rights to the DGP stuff is the only thing<BR>
>> vaulable that this guy has.<BR>
><BR>
>OK, I have to ask, how much is the value of his Traveller holdings? How much<BR>
>does /he/ think it is worth?<BR>
<BR>
When I spoke to him, the asking price for all rights and any remaining<BR>
stock (not much) was 150,000 USD.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2000 09:36:02<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Supernova<BR>
<BR>
At 07:40 PM 4/7/2000 +1200, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Actually, it's by the Boomtown Rats, Sir Bob Geldorf's old band.<BR>
<BR>
Off "The Fine Art of Surfacing", arguably their best album.<BR>
<BR>
>> It concerns a true story in California in the 1970s, as<BR>
>> I recall, about a girl who was upset one Monday and came<BR>
>> to school and shot a bunch of classmates.)<BR>
><BR>
>Real interesting story too. She married someone weird afterwards, like<BR>
>her father, her lawyer, or the prosecutor or something.<BR>
<BR>
she didn't shoot her classmates.  She fired into an elementary school<BR>
across thye street from where she lived.  (Non - US folk: kids between<BR>
about 6 - 12)<BR>
<BR>
>The song was supposedly banned in the US at the time due to it possibly<BR>
>imfluencing the jury, who had not yet been selected.<BR>
<BR>
I can attest that KOME 98.5, San Jose (the sticky spot on your radio dial)<BR>
defied the request by the prosecution to not play the song.  They played it<BR>
once an hour for three days.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
"Avoid small projects, they leave no mark on people's memories"<BR>
- - Daniel Burnham, San Francisco City Planner, 1907.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2000 09:40:01<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller Bibliography: Was District 268 Canon<BR>
<BR>
At 06:18 PM 4/6/2000 +0100, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
<much sick ACQ stuff snipped><BR>
<BR>
>Ranged Weapons table on p43 of Mr Berry's fine book, the Adelie Penguin<BR>
<BR>
I must point out that James Lindsay is at least as responsible as me.  So<BR>
blame him also.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2000 12:54:46 EDT<BR>
From: WriteFool@aol.com<BR>
Subject: G:T - Suitability of Brilliant Lances & Battle Riders<BR>
<BR>
I have an opportunity to obtain both of the TNE ship combat games and was <BR>
wondering if they would be useful.  I am planning on running a GURPS: <BR>
Traveller campaign where of course nasty people with big ships might decide <BR>
to shoot at the party.  <BR>
<BR>
1.  Are the vessels, doctrines, etc. of the TNE systems still (semi) <BR>
canonical and non-anachronistic in relation to the G:T setting?  Or were <BR>
there major changes in technology and strategy between the G:T divergence <BR>
point and TNE?<BR>
<BR>
2.  I have not fully studied the G:T Starship combat options and given the <BR>
fact that many of my players would be interested in more "detail" and <BR>
"boardgame" qualities in their space combat versus a more streamlined <BR>
"role-playing" approach, which would be better the TNE or the G:T options, or <BR>
would a third alternative be better?  I am not familiar with all the <BR>
Traveller space combat systems, but I do have Full Thrust and am given to <BR>
understand that some have ported it to Traveller with some success.<BR>
<BR>
Thanks for your time and assistance,<BR>
Michael Breen<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2000 09:30:42 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Warrant of the Restoration<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>> Who says the IISS is miltary? They are considerably *less* miltary than<BR>
>> (for example) the Coast Guard. Nearest analogue I can think of is<BR>
>> something like the Forestry Service, and the US Geologcal Survey (or<BR>
>> the Coast and Geodetic Survey people).<BR>
><BR>
> With guns.  And starships, with weapons.<BR>
<BR>
And your average Free Trader *doesn't* have guns and ship mounted<BR>
Weapons? <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2266<BR>
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Traveller-digest       Friday, April 7 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2267<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Notes on building Heya<BR>
Re: Arcologies<BR>
Re: Famile Spofulam Hi-Sensitivity Scout<BR>
Re: Astronomy in the 57th Century]<BR>
Re: RS<BR>
RE: The Imperium and the 20th Century - Perfect together?<BR>
Re: Warrant of the Restoration<BR>
re : G:T - Suitability of Brilliant Lances & Battle Riders<BR>
Re: Famile Spofulam Hi-Sensitivity Scout<BR>
Re Rugby (OT) during Gencon<BR>
Re: Astronomy in the 57th Century<BR>
Re: re : G:T - Suitability of Brilliant Lances & Battle Riders<BR>
Forine and Elixabeth<BR>
Re: Re Rugby (OT) during Gencon<BR>
RE: L+ Megacorp (was RS)<BR>
Re: RS<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2000 09:34:07 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Notes on building Heya<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> What I have a hard time with is...When you have a TL 4 planet and a <BR>
> starport...Won't the TL 4 change very rapidly when the locals see what a <BR>
> nice <BR>
> invention an air raft is and that they don't have to ride around on animal <BR>
> powered carts anymore....<BR>
<BR>
Hold onto that thought, and then visit any third world country. The<BR>
locals have seen cars, and trucks and planes. and mostly they don't<BR>
have them.<BR>
<BR>
Why? Because they can't *afford* them. Low TL also means low *wages*.<BR>
Often barter...<BR>
<BR>
At TL4 that air raft will cost more than the entire *village* can earn<BR>
in 10 years.<BR>
<BR>
> I think the presence of a starport would alter the <BR>
> planets culture...The goods that could be imported would make life so much <BR>
> easier for the average member of society...I don't know if this has been <BR>
> covered before on the TML....Pardon me if it has....<BR>
<BR>
*Cheap* high TL stuff will be around. For example, the Transistor radio<BR>
has spread just about world wide. It's relatively cheap, the batteries<BR>
*are* cheap (and now there are solar powered and *wind up* radios). And<BR>
it provides useful stuff like weather info, as well as some<BR>
entertainment. <BR>
<BR>
But vehicles tend to be restricted to old beat up junkers (mostly<BR>
buses!) being operated as a business by someone who scrimped and saved<BR>
to manage to get it.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2000 09:45:37 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Arcologies<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> "Oath of Fealty", by Jerry Pournelle. <BR>
><BR>
> Live in Todos Santos, be free of the crime and wretchedness of the<BR>
> outside. <BR>
><BR>
> Of course you have to be upper middle class to get in in the first<BR>
> place, to accept full time video monitoring of you wherever you go,<BR>
<BR>
No, only in public or if you push the "panic button". That's<BR>
*explicitly* stated in the book.<BR>
<BR>
> have any 'outside' contact closely monitored<BR>
<BR>
Care to provide a reference for that one?<BR>
<BR>
> and you are at the mercy of the corporate owners.<BR>
<BR>
Better re-read the book. You *are* one of the "corporate owners".<BR>
That's *why* they keep referring to the population as "shareholders".<BR>
<BR>
> Don't fall behind on those mortgage payments,<BR>
<BR>
Again, the system doesn't work that way.<BR>
<BR>
> don't complain, don't stick out. <BR>
<BR>
Hah! You *really* didn't pay attention. The shareholders can and *do*<BR>
complain. And many make a *living* by "sticking out". <BR>
<BR>
> Much like living in some of the more oppressive gated communities,<BR>
> today, full of people who are just like each other, and quite determined<BR>
> to make sure it stays that way...exchanging liberty for security.<BR>
<BR>
There *is* an element of that. But mostly, you've inserted a bunch of<BR>
preconceptions about what such a society would "have to" be like<BR>
instead of looking at what the authors showed you, and thinking about<BR>
what might happen.<BR>
<BR>
There's a *reason* the book is titled "Oath of Fealty". Fealty type<BR>
relationships are a lot different than what most people think they are.<BR>
They are a set of *mutual* obligations between *both* parties to the<BR>
oath. The person swearing fealty assumes obligations to the person he<BR>
is swearing to. But the person he is swearing to is *also* assuming<BR>
obligations towards *him*.<BR>
<BR>
For some reason, most history dwells upon the obligations towards the<BR>
"Lord" and ignores the obligations *of* the "Lord". <BR>
<BR>
It's just a special sort of contact. "You do this for me, and I'll do<BR>
this for you". As a social contract, it's been *far* more successful<BR>
than most others. <BR>
<BR>
> And you have the restive teeming masses just outside...<BR>
<BR>
Which is not in any way the "fault" of the folks inside.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2000 09:55:31 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Famile Spofulam Hi-Sensitivity Scout<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>>> We calculate it can detect a J class racing yacht at seven parsecs.<BR>
>><BR>
>>If you *care* about what was going on 22.8 years ago (that being the<BR>
>>time it takes a light speed signal to croos 7 parsecs).<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> Think of the implications for law enforcement!<BR>
><BR>
> Essentially, every incident in known space has been recorded for posterity<BR>
> via the handy medium of c-lag. So this investigation hinges on which ship<BR>
> actually fired first, in that ugly incident six months ago? Have the Justice<BR>
> Department deploy a FS 'Eyewitness' Class Scout to a point seven<BR>
> light-months away and watch the incident really really carefully. I mean, at<BR>
> a mere 5.6 quadrillion kilometres (5.6x10^15 metres, a mere sixth of a<BR>
> parsec) it ought to be able to read the serial numbers off hull plates.<BR>
<BR>
Cute. But highly impractical. <BR>
<BR>
The resolving power of your sensor is determined by it's "diameter"<BR>
versus the distance. At 7 light months, you'll need one *huge* sensor<BR>
to resolve things even a *meter* across.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2000 10:03:19 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Astronomy in the 57th Century]<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>   shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) wrote <BR>
>>The Imperial Star Survey will be just barely considered "astronomy". <BR>
><BR>
>>But as I figure it, they'll set up several *big* space telescopes (at<BR>
>>least 4) a parsec apart. For a 4 scope "array", they'd be at the apexes<BR>
>>of a tetrahedron a parsec on a side. <BR>
><BR>
>>While there's no way to use them as a synthetic aperture array, you<BR>
>>*can* use them as a *very* long baseline for determining stellar<BR>
>>positions. <BR>
>  <BR>
> You are probably better off doing wide angle astrometry with a long baseline<BR>
> interferometry.  This is the other job that interferometers can do other than<BR>
> synthetic aperature imaging.  The technique determines very accurate stellar<BR>
> positions.  The Space Interferometry Mission from JPL is going to do this as <BR>
> one of its main tasks.  There's a neat web site which explains everything<BR>
> about it.<BR>
> The Naval Prototype Optical Interferometer from the US Naval Observatory is <BR>
> also doing this with a 300m baseline.  It also has a web site.<BR>
<BR>
Well, my main thought was the difference in positional accuracy that a<BR>
1 *parsec* baseline gets you. :-)<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2000 09:43:12 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: RS<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Via electronic medium on 4/2/00 12:53 AM, Hiroshi.Estigarribia@gmx.de issued<BR>
> forth:<BR>
><BR>
>> BTW: It may be the case that the rights to the DGP stuff is the only thing<BR>
>> vaulable that this guy has.<BR>
><BR>
> OK, I have to ask, how much is the value of his Traveller holdings? How much<BR>
> does /he/ think it is worth?<BR>
<BR>
According to previous posts, he thinks it's worth about $100k. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2000 11:28:34 -0600 <BR>
From: Jason Postma <JasonP@i-link.net><BR>
Subject: RE: The Imperium and the 20th Century - Perfect together?<BR>
<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
From: Chris Seamans [mailto:semo@pil.net]<BR>
On personal freedom:<BR>
What you've claimed is personal freedom above and civic freedom below is<BR>
actually sovereignal freedom. Member worlds in the Imperium are allowed,<BR>
within certain broad parameters, to govern their own affairs. What you seem<BR>
to be doing is broadening the notions of each sort of freedom in order to<BR>
cover the freedom that the Imperium extends to its member worlds to govern<BR>
themselves.><BR>
<BR>
Or, in other words, the Imperium treats planets in something of the same way<BR>
as America treats individuals.  A definite similarity, then, just a<BR>
difference in scale.  For America, we give individuals freedoms.  For the<BR>
Imperium, it's entire planets.  In either case, the government recognizes<BR>
that the governed have some right to how they handle their own business.<BR>
<BR>
>>Another characteristic of late 20th century western culture, frequently<BR>
>>commented on, is the idea that everything can be classified and<BR>
simplified,<BR>
>>and that, to some degree, scientific methods can be applied to any<BR>
problem.<BR>
><BR>
>Third Imperium similarities: The Grand Survey attempts to classify and<BR>
>simplify the description of 11,000 individual worlds into simple, 8-digit<BR>
>codes.<BR>
There is no indication that the belief that scientific methods can be<BR>
applied to every problem, or even most problems. The Imperium merely<BR>
classifies things, which every culture does.<<BR>
<BR>
	If every culture does it, we'll need to remove "the idea that every<BR>
thing can be classified" from  the list of unique 20th century cultural<BR>
attributes.<BR>
	There is no indication (that I can think of off hand) that the<BR>
Imperium does not apply the scientific method to every problem, either, so I<BR>
guess there's no evidence either way there.<BR>
<BR>
>By simplifying a problem, I mean just that. The issue of violence in<BR>
America<BR>
is boiled down to, for example, the "evil media", and the "evil guns", while<BR>
people who are really interested in the problem realize that it's much more<BR>
complicated.><BR>
<BR>
As for simplifying a problem, how about the psionics suppressions?  Some<BR>
psionic researchers were found to be corrupt so suddenly the Imperial<BR>
populace as a whole identified all psionics as immoral and tools of the<BR>
Zhodani, so they were suppressed and removed.  That does seem to be an<BR>
example of this over-simplifying trend in the Imperium.<BR>
<BR>
>>In America, technological progress is believed to be the ultimate problem<BR>
>>solver: no problem can exist that the application of the appropriate<BR>
>>technology can't solve.<BR>
><BR>
>Third Imperium similarity: The longbow project.  So we can't see what the<BR>
>Zho's are finding on their core expeditions?  Let's create the galaxy's<BR>
>largest synthetic apeture project ever and find out.<BR>
>The 3I also has research stations dotted throughout known space, all of<BR>
>which are engaged in cutting edge research.<BR>
Yes, but the Longbow Project is a problem that the application of the<BR>
appropriate technology can solve, and it would be reasonable to apply<BR>
technology to this end.<<BR>
<BR>
Just because it IS actually reasonable it's disqualified from the "science<BR>
can solve everything" idea, eh?  Oh well.  It sounds like the kind of hokey,<BR>
overblown projects that American research is always into to me.<BR>
How about the psionic suppressions again?  There is a theory (see the<BR>
library data entry - Crises of '99) that they were a psycho-historical<BR>
experiment gone wrong.  The government of the Imperium felt that science (in<BR>
thr form of unproven psycho-historical techniques) would help them remove<BR>
the power of the psionics institutes and it ended up going too far.  <BR>
<BR>
>Just because research is conducted doesn't mean that the Imperium is as<BR>
fascinated with the new in the same way that America is. This trend is<BR>
especially acute in the American medical field (which even our Western<BR>
neighbors the Europeans tend to look at with puzzlement). The idea is that<BR>
sleeker machines and more pills will solve every medical problem, including<BR>
behavioral and emotional problems (with generally mixed results).<BR>
This is almost purely American. We embrace every new technology, and sing<BR>
its praises and rush headlong into the use of these technologies. Even other<BR>
Western cultures don't tend to do this.<<BR>
<BR>
For the Imperium, how about the TNS reports on drop tanks from 1105-1106?  A<BR>
brand new, unproven technology is introduced and plans are immediatly made<BR>
to supply it everywhere it can be useful, while rosey projections are made<BR>
as to how it will improve transportation?  Sounds rather like the attitude<BR>
of technology solving our problems for us.<BR>
<BR>
(concerning the idea that Americans believe the values that they treasure<BR>
are universally shared)<BR>
>I recognize it's present, but pretty much every culture out there believes<BR>
>that the way they do things is the correct way (why would they be doing it<BR>
>otherwise?), and many believed that it was the proper way because humans<BR>
had been created that way.  Feudal Japan, for example, where every person<BR>
had<BR>
>his place and was thwarting nature if he went outside of it, because it was<BR>
>part of his nature to be in that place in society.<BR>
Your feudal Japan scenario is quite different. Every person had his place,<BR>
and it was that person's nature to be in that place. This is extremely<BR>
common in feudal and semi-feudal societies, Greece, Rome, medieval Europe<BR>
and so on. That's not the same as a belief that everybody is governed by a<BR>
belief in the same sorts of abstract concepts that your culture is, or wants<BR>
those things wholesale: personal freedom, romantic / sexual love, that all<BR>
people are governed by Freudian psychology, and so on.<<BR>
<BR>
Well, if it is unique to American culture;<BR>
How about the Imperial belief that the tavrchedl are "Thought Police", and<BR>
oppress the Zhodani proles?  They tend to believe that the Proles, given a<BR>
chance, would rise up against their noble leaders, but that the tavrchedl<BR>
make sure this doesn't happen.  This seems to be a belief that the 3I's<BR>
government is more natural to humaniti than that of the Zhodani, and that<BR>
the Zhodani government must repress it's people to remain in power, as it's<BR>
not the same as the superior system of the 3I.<BR>
<BR>
>Within the background,the idea is that worlds within the Imperium should be<BR>
allowed to wage war<BR>
with each other, relatively unhindered, for any reason. One could argue that<BR>
this is a natural extension of the Imperium's "hands off" style of ruling<BR>
with respect to individual worlds, i.e., the high degree of importance the<BR>
Imperial rulers place on the notion of sovereignal freedom.<BR>
I don't think that there's any sort of similarity to be found here. The<BR>
Imperium, as a whole, must have some very different notions of personal<BR>
freedom in order to allow Imperial citizens to engage in wholesale slaughter<BR>
of other Imperial citizens... and make a profit off of it to boot. This<BR>
isn't an illicit activity, but a perfectly legitimate and acceptable<BR>
activity in the social framework of the Imperium.><BR>
<BR>
I believe that the Imperium's attitude towards small-scale warfare amoung<BR>
member planets is present in the background to allow for "mercenary style"<BR>
campaigns.  It was, essentially, grafted into Imperial culture to allow for<BR>
a certain style of play without consideration of all its implications.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2000 13:36:38 -0400<BR>
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Warrant of the Restoration<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> And your average Free Trader *doesn't* have guns and ship mounted<BR>
> Weapons?<BR>
<BR>
Yours or mine?  ;-)<BR>
<BR>
bloo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2000 03:40:11 +1000<BR>
From: "Katharine Whitchurch" <katts@globalfreeway.com.au><BR>
Subject: re : G:T - Suitability of Brilliant Lances & Battle Riders<BR>
<BR>
> From: WriteFool@aol.com<BR>
> Subject: G:T - Suitability of Brilliant Lances & Battle Riders<BR>
><BR>
> I have an opportunity to obtain both of the TNE ship combat games and was<BR>
> wondering if they would be useful.  I am planning on running a GURPS:<BR>
> Traveller campaign where of course nasty people with big ships might<BR>
decide<BR>
> to shoot at the party.<BR>
><BR>
> 1.  Are the vessels, doctrines, etc. of the TNE systems still (semi)<BR>
> canonical and non-anachronistic in relation to the G:T setting?  Or were<BR>
> there major changes in technology and strategy between the G:T divergence<BR>
> point and TNE?<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
Well, there were major divergences between TNE and everything else, with the<BR>
abandonment of thruster plates for reaction drives. G:T has t-plates, so you<BR>
have practically unlimited maneuver, which affects doctrine.<BR>
<BR>
A couple of things got stuffed up in G:T space combat (eg sandcasters are<BR>
too wimpy, and combat is too short-range), but nothing that cant be fixed.<BR>
<BR>
Apart from that, you still have civilian weapons (lasers and missiles) and<BR>
real weapons (honking big spinal PAWs and Meson Guns).<BR>
<BR>
> 2.  I have not fully studied the G:T Starship combat options and given the<BR>
> fact that many of my players would be interested in more "detail" and<BR>
> "boardgame" qualities in their space combat versus a more streamlined<BR>
> "role-playing" approach, which would be better the TNE or the G:T options,<BR>
or<BR>
> would a third alternative be better?  I am not familiar with all the<BR>
> Traveller space combat systems, but I do have Full Thrust and am given to<BR>
> understand that some have ported it to Traveller with some success.<BR>
<BR>
What sort of ships are they likely to be using ? Are we talking a 200 dton<BR>
Far Trader with a couple of lasers, or are we talking full-on battlewagons ?<BR>
<BR>
Ian Whitchurch<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2000 10:58:31 -0700<BR>
From: "Luther Martin" <martin@ksarul.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Famile Spofulam Hi-Sensitivity Scout<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> ><BR>
> > Essentially, every incident in known space has been recorded for<BR>
posterity<BR>
> > via the handy medium of c-lag. So this investigation hinges on which<BR>
ship<BR>
> > actually fired first, in that ugly incident six months ago? Have the<BR>
Justice<BR>
> > Department deploy a FS 'Eyewitness' Class Scout to a point seven<BR>
> > light-months away and watch the incident really really carefully. I<BR>
mean, at<BR>
> > a mere 5.6 quadrillion kilometres (5.6x10^15 metres, a mere sixth of a<BR>
> > parsec) it ought to be able to read the serial numbers off hull plates.<BR>
><BR>
> Cute. But highly impractical.<BR>
><BR>
> The resolving power of your sensor is determined by it's "diameter"<BR>
> versus the distance. At 7 light months, you'll need one *huge* sensor<BR>
> to resolve things even a *meter* across.<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
Aha. But the resolving power of a sensor is also a function of wavelength.<BR>
<BR>
The Eyewitness Class Scout just needs to use fairly short wavelengths to<BR>
image the suspects. Something like 1e-16 m. Hey, it's an advanced TL isn't<BR>
it?<BR>
<BR>
It's certainly more plausible than psionics.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2000 19:11:18 +0100<BR>
From: "Derrick Jones" <dojones.whitestar@btinternet.com><BR>
Subject: Re Rugby (OT) during Gencon<BR>
<BR>
Doug wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>This sounds like a lot of fun.  A friend who is an expat Brit grabbed me by<BR>
>the lapels and shouted that I had to go see a "real football match" if at<BR>
>all possible", but I'll accept rugby.<BR>
<BR>
Right you are then. If you are coming, we'll sort out a particularly interesting <BR>
match around Gencon time... I might even go and watch another team.<BR>
<BR>
We'll sort it out nearer to the date...<BR>
<BR>
Derrick<BR>
<BR>
Derrick Jones<BR>
St Helens<BR>
Lancashire UK<BR>
http://www.btinternet.com/~dojones.whitestar<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2000 10:16:22 -0800<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Astronomy in the 57th Century<BR>
<BR>
Shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) wrote<BR>
<BR>
> > shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) wrote<BR>
> ><BR>
> >> > We could take a subsidized merchant & fill its whole cargo<BR>
> >> > hold full of batteries. Then we run the whole observatory<BR>
> >> > (and the subbie itself) off of the batteries. When it runs dry<BR>
> >> > we switch to the next subbie.<BR>
<BR>
> >> Use fuel cells. Just ship out "tankers" loaded with LOX and LH2. The<BR>
> >> unneeded water can be shipped back.<BR>
<BR>
> > Fuel cells are a good idea but in Traveller batteries have <BR>
> > a higher energy density than fuel cells, especially considering <BR>
> > fuel needs, which is why I picked batteries.<BR>
> <BR>
> But "energy density" isn't terribly relevant on a fixed installation. <BR>
<BR>
The batteries or fuel cell fuel have to be transported to<BR>
the installation on a ship. If it can hold more power than<BR>
you will not have to send a ship as often and that is<BR>
cheaper.<BR>
<BR>
> > Therefore a 15 MW fuel cell and 1000 hours (42 days) fuel <BR>
> > at TL 14 will need 2,000 kl (143 displacement tons) of fuel.<BR>
> > The fuel cell itself will take up 10 kl. At TL 12 the<BR>
> > fuel cell needs 5,000 kl fuel & occupies 20 kl itself.<BR>
> > (A total volume of 359 tons)<BR>
> > Batteries to get 15 MW/hour for 1,000 hours will need a 3,750<BR>
> > MW battery. This battery will take up 1,500 kl (107 displacement<BR>
> > tons). At TL 12 it takes up 2,500 kl (179 tons).<BR>
> > Therefore, at least at TL 12-15, the batteries are a better <BR>
> > use of space albeit a more expensive one.<BR>
<BR>
> The problem is that batteries have to be *charged* (unless they are<BR>
> primary cells, in which case they have to be *replaced* when they run<BR>
> down). <BR>
<BR>
An empty fuel tank is of no more use than dead batteries.<BR>
<BR>
In the scenario we are discussing the batteries (or fuel cell<BR>
fuel) are brought in on a Subsidized Merchant. At TL 15 this<BR>
ship has a 200 ton cargo bay. If we fill it full of TL 14<BR>
batteries it can run our observatory for 1,869 hours (78 days).<BR>
If we fill it full of fuel cell fuel it can run our observatory<BR>
for only 1,399 hours (58 days). Therefore batteries are superior.<BR>
<BR>
On the other hand our batteries will cost MCr 27 while our<BR>
fuel cell fuel will cost only MCr 0.675. This means that over<BR>
a period of 40 refills (6.35 years) you will spend MCr 27 on<BR>
the fuel and have nothing left over. Assuming I buy two 200<BR>
ton batteries (so I can recharge one out system while the<BR>
other is in use) my method is still cheaper over periods<BR>
of 12.7+ years. On the other hand I had to pay MCr 54 up front <BR>
and you did not. Assuming that interest on loans to buy<BR>
batteries is the same 150% of the amount borrowed over the life <BR>
of the loan that starship loans are I still save money. At the <BR>
end of 40 years you will have spent Mcr 170 on fuel (and MCr<BR>
0.2 on your generator itself) and have nothing left. I will have <BR>
put MCr 10.8 down and paid MCr 108 on my loan for a total cost <BR>
of Mcr 118.8. I will still have 2 really big batteries. Batteries <BR>
are cheaper. <BR>
<BR>
(Admittedly I have not addressed the power generation costs<BR>
needed to recharge those batteries but nor have I discussed<BR>
the funds I can get from using my 2nd battery elsewhere while<BR>
the first battery powers the observatory.)<BR>
<BR>
> Given the enormous size of the telescopes, the extra space for the fuel<BR>
> cells hardly matters. And they are an actual power *source* rather than<BR>
> a power *storage* device.<BR>
<BR>
Its not the space at the telescope it is the space on the<BR>
ship that brings the fuel to the telescope that is the issue.<BR>
<BR>
> With batteries, you have to run a reactor to recharge them. And this<BR>
> will take a fair amount of time, as the recharge rate is limited if you<BR>
> want the batteries to last more than a few charge/discharge cycles. <BR>
<BR>
You do not recharge the batteries on the spot you jump them out<BR>
and recharge them at the other end. Then you jump them back in.<BR>
<BR>
> With fuel cells, you need regular deliveries of LH2 and LOX. Which<BR>
> involve having a ship with an active reactor nearby.<BR>
> <BR>
> But the *total time* that you have an active reactor around over the<BR>
> course of a year will be *lower* with the fuel cells.<BR>
<BR>
No it will not. My way a ship shows up every 78 days, removes<BR>
the old 200 ton battery and replaces it with the new 200 ton <BR>
battery. They then jump out.<BR>
<BR>
Your way the ship full of fuel cell fuel has to jump in every<BR>
58 days.<BR>
<BR>
> And since there *will* be (monthly?) visits by ships for supplies and<BR>
> transfer of personell and data (gotta have the latest issues of those<BR>
> astronomical journals!), you can combine the refuel runs with the ship<BR>
> visits, ths maximizing the time available for observing.<BR>
<BR>
My way has less frequent runs than your does. Admittedly if we<BR>
use fuel cells the ship will jump out empty which gives us <BR>
theoretically sale able cargo space but given that the observatory<BR>
is only thing in this empty hex that probably will not actually<BR>
raise any money.<BR>
<BR>
> >> Sure, but you'll want observatories scattered throughout the Imperium<BR>
> >> because that way you can get several *centuries* of observatyions of<BR>
> >> the same star, thanks to light lag. <BR>
<BR>
> > Oh sure you will. I am simply saying that the Universities<BR>
> > that see the event first will have it studied to death before <BR>
> > the universities in the Core even see it.<BR>
<BR>
> On the other hand, you may have a new (or better) instrument to observe<BR>
> it with. <BR>
<BR>
You may but you probably won't. The quality of your instrument<BR>
will presumably depend on two main factors: how expensive it<BR>
was and what TL it is. The economy of the Third Imperium is not<BR>
growing very fast, therefore it is not much larger in 1120<BR>
than it was a hundred years before (when the event could have <BR>
been observed by an instrument a sector away), therefore the<BR>
Imperium has no more money to spend on instruments than it did<BR>
than, therefore it is unlikely that you have a more expensive<BR>
instrument available. (Especially since Longbow II is probably <BR>
sucking funds away from other telescopes). TL has not gone up<BR>
in the last century either. You are unlikely to have a better<BR>
instrument than anyone did a century before.<BR>
<BR>
> Also, I bet that students are carefully kept "innocent"<BR>
> regarding some interesting phenomena that are about to reach "their"<BR>
> observatory, just to see how well they do at noticing them. :-)<BR>
<BR>
Yes they probably are & I suspect every once in a long while<BR>
the students spot something that had gone unnoticed so far.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2000 14:32:01 EDT<BR>
From: WriteFool@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: re : G:T - Suitability of Brilliant Lances & Battle Riders<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 4/7/00 12:48:11 PM Central Daylight Time, <BR>
katts@globalfreeway.com.au writes:<BR>
 > 2.  I have not fully studied the G:T Starship combat options and given the<BR>
 > fact that many of my players would be interested in more "detail" and<BR>
 > "boardgame" qualities in their space combat versus a more streamlined<BR>
 > "role-playing" approach, which would be better the TNE or the G:T options,<BR>
 or<BR>
 > would a third alternative be better?  I am not familiar with all the<BR>
 > Traveller space combat systems, but I do have Full Thrust and am given to<BR>
 > understand that some have ported it to Traveller with some success.<BR>
 <BR>
 What sort of ships are they likely to be using ? Are we talking a 200 dton<BR>
 Far Trader with a couple of lasers, or are we talking full-on battlewagons ?<BR>
 <BR>
 Ian Whitchurch<BR>
  >><BR>
<BR>
It could be anything ranging from the party's own vessel (probably closer to <BR>
the Far Trader) to the players running major space battles (not as their <BR>
characters but as proxies for the Naval Command).<BR>
<BR>
Thanks for your help<BR>
Michael Breen<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2000 14:00:36 -0500<BR>
From: tim@premier.net<BR>
Subject: Forine and Elixabeth<BR>
<BR>
News Wire out of Forine 1120  Free Forine Assembly Press<BR>
<BR>
It has come to the attention of the Forine people that elements of <BR>
Rifle Inc and operation executives of Instellerarms have arrived on <BR>
Elixabeth.  These and other hostile groups are becoming a growing <BR>
concern of all independent systems.  Forine, for one, will pay <BR>
growing attention to these operations.  Forine, as all ways, will <BR>
resist any attempts to take away its freedom.<BR>
Tim Reynolds<BR>
tim@premier.net <BR>
225-334-5063<BR>
- ------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
Getting an education was a bit like a communicable <BR>
sexual disease.  It made you unsuitable for <BR>
a lot of jobs and then you had the urge to pass it on.<BR>
<BR>
Terry Pratchett <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2000 15:02:30 -0400<BR>
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Re Rugby (OT) during Gencon<BR>
<BR>
Derrick Jones wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Doug wrote:<BR>
><BR>
> >This sounds like a lot of fun.  A friend who is an expat Brit grabbed me by<BR>
> >the lapels and shouted that I had to go see a "real football match" if at<BR>
> >all possible", but I'll accept rugby.<BR>
><BR>
> Right you are then. If you are coming, we'll sort out a particularly interesting<BR>
> match around Gencon time... I might even go and watch another team.<BR>
<BR>
American football is directly derived from rugby.<BR>
Take Rugby Union.  Allow blocking, the forward pass (which was<BR>
a late development in the american game), break the scrum up<BR>
(it becomes the front line), disallow kicking, and rule the ball dead<BR>
when it touches the ground.  That is all it takes to switch from one<BR>
game to the other.<BR>
<BR>
Oh, and one other thing . . . remove all those wussies pads!<BR>
<BR>
bloo<BR>
(front row rugby player)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2000 13:06:31 -0700<BR>
From: Jesse DeGraff <jdegraff@pacbell.net><BR>
Subject: RE: L+ Megacorp (was RS)<BR>
<BR>
Okay, so the SECOND thing I'd do is buy out the Nameless One :D<BR>
<BR>
Jesse<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Douglas E.<BR>
> Berry<BR>
> Sent: Friday, April 07, 2000 2:15 AM<BR>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> Subject: RE: L+ Megacorp (was RS)<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> At 11:02 AM 4/6/2000 -0700, you wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> >Anyway, the first thing I'd do if I ever won the lottery<BR>
> <BR>
> <snip><BR>
> <BR>
> Now be honest Jesse, the first thing you'd do is hop a plane to Oregon to<BR>
> establish residensy, the have Mark take you shopping...<BR>
> -- <BR>
> <BR>
> Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
> http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2000 21:09:27 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Re: RS<BR>
<BR>
At 13:08 -0400 7/4/00, "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com> wrote:<BR>
> >OK, I have to ask, how much is the value of his Traveller holdings? How much<BR>
> >does /he/ think it is worth?<BR>
><BR>
>When I spoke to him, the asking price for all rights and any remaining<BR>
>stock (not much) was 150,000 USD.<BR>
<BR>
Splort!<BR>
<BR>
At say 10000 copies of a RPG book at $20 USD a book - you take home <BR>
$200,000. Over a period. Then you take off printing, distribution, <BR>
authors fees, artwork, overheads.... He's being unrealistic by a long <BR>
way, especially for some supplements for a game that has been OOP for <BR>
7 years +. Especially when 10k sales are good...<BR>
<BR>
Dom IMO<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2267<BR>
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Traveller-digest       Friday, April 7 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2268<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Traveller Bibliography: Was District 268 Canon<BR>
Re: Gencon UK<BR>
Re: CLT- Picture<BR>
Way back when Cleon was a lad...<BR>
Tech Question: GT stats/effects for Orbital Kinetic weapon (Thor)<BR>
Re: Astronomy in the 57th Century<BR>
Re: Tech Question: GT stats/effects for Orbital Kinetic weapon (Thor)<BR>
Re: Tech Question: GT stats/effects for Orbital Kinetic weapon (Thor)<BR>
Re: Astronomy in the 57th Century<BR>
Wars within the Imperium<BR>
Re: Wars within the Imperium<BR>
Re: Duelling Penguins & Triples: Was Traveller Bibliography: Was District 268 Canon<BR>
RE: The Imperium and the 20th Century - Perfect together?<BR>
Re: Duelling Penguins<BR>
RE: Wars within the Imperium<BR>
RE: Website<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2000 21:11:42 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller Bibliography: Was District 268 Canon<BR>
<BR>
At 13:08 -0400 7/4/00, "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com> wrote:<BR>
>At 06:18 PM 4/6/2000 +0100, you wrote:<BR>
><BR>
><much sick ACQ stuff snipped><BR>
> >Ranged Weapons table on p43 of Mr Berry's fine book, the Adelie Penguin<BR>
>I must point out that James Lindsay is at least as responsible as me.  So<BR>
>blame him also.<BR>
<BR>
Having read the book, I think that the word 'responsible' may be <BR>
being used somewhat 'loosely' here.<BR>
<BR>
Responsible? Sheesh! Shakes head....<BR>
<BR>
Dom ;-)<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2000 15:35:15 -0500<BR>
From: "Pat Connaughton" <pconn@i1.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Gencon UK<BR>
<BR>
In re Gencon (2000)<BR>
Always a nod in gratitude to the British Isles<BR>
where in orginated scotch, as well as Irish whiskey and<BR>
Welsh Ale (BTW Wales also has a couple on rather nifty<BR>
whiskeys too)<BR>
<BR>
Could anyone tell me - will the "T" in any of it's incarnations<BR>
be played at Gencon in the US?<BR>
<BR>
Thanks<BR>
Pat Connaughton <BR>
ICQ # 2535086<BR>
pconn@i1.net<BR>
"He who knows not how to dissemble knows not<BR>
how to reign"<BR>
Tiberius, Emperator and Princips of Rome<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2000 14:15:45 -0700<BR>
From: "Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com><BR>
Subject: Re: CLT- Picture<BR>
<BR>
Via electronic medium on 4/3/00 11:36 AM, mlinsenmayer@symantec.com issued<BR>
forth:<BR>
<BR>
> Introducing Ling Standards Classic CLT-12 Language translator.<BR>
<BR>
Sweet! Good job, keep it up!<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2000 22:34:59 +0100<BR>
From: "Mark Preston" <mark@mpreston.demon.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Way back when Cleon was a lad...<BR>
<BR>
I know I have the information somewhere, but damned if I can find it.<BR>
Anybody know how old Cleon was when he restored the Imperium?<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
Mark A. Preston<BR>
The Magpie's Nest http://www.mpreston.demon.co.uk<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2000 16:47:01 CST6CDT<BR>
From: igor@truserve.com<BR>
Subject: Tech Question: GT stats/effects for Orbital Kinetic weapon (Thor)<BR>
<BR>
Now I realize this has been discussed in the past - being in the same vein as <BR>
dropping asteroids...<BR>
<BR>
But, I'm not looking to start a flame. I am honestly interested in the <BR>
technical aspects of a Orbital Kinetic Bombardment Weapon - sometimes called a <BR>
Thor.<BR>
<BR>
Normally such a weapon is described as "dropping crowbars" - dense rods of <BR>
metal that slam into their targets using nothing but KE to do their damage.<BR>
<BR>
Without degrading into a huge argument - _assuming_ I wanted to use these in <BR>
GT, would anyone wanna guess at their stats? Are they a tactical (ie Buildings, <BR>
Tanks, etc) or Strategic (cities) weapon? How much space do they need on the <BR>
firing ship? How accurate would they be? How much damage would they do? How <BR>
effective would PDF be against them?<BR>
<BR>
Thanks.<BR>
<BR>
Andy<BR>
Akins<BR>
<BR>
________________________________________________________<BR>
True Communications Corporation Your Premier ISP.<BR>
"Hometown Service with Worldwide Connectivity"<BR>
http://www.truserve.com        info@truserve.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2000 15:37:03 -0700<BR>
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Astronomy in the 57th Century<BR>
<BR>
>  >From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu><BR>
><BR>
>  >>IMTU the Zhodani have good astronomers, the Vargr<BR>
>  >>are not really interested in astronomy (lack of patience,<BR>
>  >>little opportunity for Charisma gain)<BR>
>  ><BR>
>  >Who says the Vargr don't have patience?  (Human propaganda! :-)<BR>
>  >I think they would have astronomy, but it would be more geared<BR>
>  >toward what could make a splash in the popular media with less<BR>
>  >emphasis on work that will never be appreciated except by a<BR>
>  >fewspecialists.<BR>
><BR>
>Who says astronomy has little room for charisma gain?  Remember<BR>
>that the Vargr typically like small groups and dominance in a<BR>
>small group may be more important to an individual Vargr than<BR>
>general, public recognition.  So being top dog (pun intended,<BR>
>slur not) among an elite group of say 20 astronomers might give<BR>
>that Vargr huge charisma in that context (especially at the<BR>
>subsector astronomy conference).<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Not a bad point.  A Vargr who can't manage "mass market"<BR>
leadership might set himself up a little academic empire....<BR>
<BR>
______________________________<BR>
summers@alum.mit.edu<BR>
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2000 15:43:03 -0700<BR>
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Tech Question: GT stats/effects for Orbital Kinetic weapon (Thor)<BR>
<BR>
igor@truserve.com wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
> Normally such a weapon is described as "dropping crowbars" - dense rods of<BR>
> metal that slam into their targets using nothing but KE to do their damage.<BR>
> <BR>
> Without degrading into a huge argument - _assuming_ I wanted to use these in<BR>
> GT, would anyone wanna guess at their stats? Are they a tactical (ie Buildings,<BR>
> Tanks, etc) or Strategic (cities) weapon? How much space do they need on the<BR>
> firing ship? How accurate would they be? How much damage would they do? How<BR>
> effective would PDF be against them?<BR>
<BR>
Well, since I don't have G:Space yet i'll refrain from hard numbers, but<BR>
your question can be answered (in the classic mode) yes, no and maybe.<BR>
<BR>
Size and speed determines whether they're tactical or strategic, and<BR>
whether PD will have much effect on them.<BR>
<BR>
In their simplest form they're simply big ol' iron bars shot out of a<BR>
mass driver, with _maybe_ some targetting gagetry on them. If they're<BR>
tactical, they'll neeed to be targetted, and they'll be susceptible to<BR>
PD, though barring Big Honking Lasers or meson weapons, it's unlikely<BR>
that PD will do much more than change where they hit, whihc kinda turns<BR>
them into strategic weapons.<BR>
<BR>
As a strategic weapon, they need less guidance, can be made much more<BR>
massive, and PD becomes much less effective. Think the grain canisters<BR>
filled with cement from "the Moon is a Harsh Mistress".<BR>
<BR>
Or you throw LOTS of 50-100 kg superdense spheres at the general area of<BR>
a city. These will be hellishly hard to affect with PD other htan<BR>
vaporizing them, and the effect on the city below will be quite nasty. A<BR>
true terror weapon. A single sphere won't do much more than take out a<BR>
building or part of one, depending on the velocity. But dump a few<BR>
thousand of these suckers on a city, the PD will be overwhelmed.<BR>
<BR>
This is why you don't let that enemy fleet close to orbital bombardment<BR>
range.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Bruce Johnson<BR>
University of Arizona<BR>
College of Pharmacy<BR>
Information Technology Group<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2000 15:43:03 -0700<BR>
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Tech Question: GT stats/effects for Orbital Kinetic weapon (Thor)<BR>
<BR>
igor@truserve.com wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
> Normally such a weapon is described as "dropping crowbars" - dense rods of<BR>
> metal that slam into their targets using nothing but KE to do their damage.<BR>
> <BR>
> Without degrading into a huge argument - _assuming_ I wanted to use these in<BR>
> GT, would anyone wanna guess at their stats? Are they a tactical (ie Buildings,<BR>
> Tanks, etc) or Strategic (cities) weapon? How much space do they need on the<BR>
> firing ship? How accurate would they be? How much damage would they do? How<BR>
> effective would PDF be against them?<BR>
<BR>
Well, since I don't have G:Space yet i'll refrain from hard numbers, but<BR>
your question can be answered (in the classic mode) yes, no and maybe.<BR>
<BR>
Size and speed determines whether they're tactical or strategic, and<BR>
whether PD will have much effect on them.<BR>
<BR>
In their simplest form they're simply big ol' iron bars shot out of a<BR>
mass driver, with _maybe_ some targetting gagetry on them. If they're<BR>
tactical, they'll neeed to be targetted, and they'll be susceptible to<BR>
PD, though barring Big Honking Lasers or meson weapons, it's unlikely<BR>
that PD will do much more than change where they hit, whihc kinda turns<BR>
them into strategic weapons.<BR>
<BR>
As a strategic weapon, they need less guidance, can be made much more<BR>
massive, and PD becomes much less effective. Think the grain canisters<BR>
filled with cement from "the Moon is a Harsh Mistress".<BR>
<BR>
Or you throw LOTS of 50-100 kg superdense spheres at the general area of<BR>
a city. These will be hellishly hard to affect with PD other htan<BR>
vaporizing them, and the effect on the city below will be quite nasty. A<BR>
true terror weapon. A single sphere won't do much more than take out a<BR>
building or part of one, depending on the velocity. But dump a few<BR>
thousand of these suckers on a city, the PD will be overwhelmed.<BR>
<BR>
This is why you don't let that enemy fleet close to orbital bombardment<BR>
range.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Bruce Johnson<BR>
University of Arizona<BR>
College of Pharmacy<BR>
Information Technology Group<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2000 15:43:21 -0700<BR>
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Astronomy in the 57th Century<BR>
<BR>
At 10:16 AM -0800 4/7/00, Peter Newman wrote:<BR>
>The batteries or fuel cell fuel have to be transported to<BR>
>the installation on a ship. If it can hold more power than<BR>
>you will not have to send a ship as often and that is<BR>
>cheaper.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
I agree that you would probably just have a reactor that<BR>
recharges batteries.  I'm not convinced they have to be<BR>
recharged at a lower current density (at TTL 15 they prob.<BR>
have solved that little problem) but even if they did, you<BR>
just have a large capacity and spread the recharge current over<BR>
all of them at once.  If you use on battery at a time, you just<BR>
have 10 or 20 of them that you recharge simultaneous (over<BR>
the same amount of time that you drain each one at, but at<BR>
<1/10 the current density).<BR>
<BR>
One can easily get >90% observation time this way and save<BR>
the salary of the ship's crew....<BR>
<BR>
______________________________<BR>
summers@alum.mit.edu<BR>
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2000 08:56:01 +1000<BR>
From: "Katharine Whitchurch" <katts@globalfreeway.com.au><BR>
Subject: Wars within the Imperium<BR>
<BR>
As an example of the attitude the Imperium probably has, look at the<BR>
attitude of the US to the 1982 Falklands War.<BR>
<BR>
That was was between two American "client/ally" states (I dont think it's<BR>
pushing it too hard to compare the Imperium to the Pax Americana), and the<BR>
USA really didnt have a problem - just as long as they played nice, and<BR>
nobody asked them to pick a side.<BR>
<BR>
I loved the Pennsylvania war analogy btw :)<BR>
<BR>
Ian<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2000 16:07:00 -0700<BR>
From: "Luther Martin" <martin@ksarul.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Wars within the Imperium<BR>
<BR>
> As an example of the attitude the Imperium probably has, look at the<BR>
> attitude of the US to the 1982 Falklands War.<BR>
><BR>
> That was was between two American "client/ally" states (I dont think it's<BR>
> pushing it too hard to compare the Imperium to the Pax Americana), and the<BR>
> USA really didnt have a problem - just as long as they played nice, and<BR>
> nobody asked them to pick a side.<BR>
<BR>
I don't recall us supplying intelligence, ammunition, and fuel to *both*<BR>
sides.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2000 23:16:34 GMT<BR>
From: j_pete@bellsouth.net (Pete)<BR>
Subject: Re: Duelling Penguins & Triples: Was Traveller Bibliography: Was District 268 Canon<BR>
<BR>
On Fri, 07 Apr 2000 08:53:14, "Douglas E. Berry"<BR>
<gridlore@pop.mindspring.com> wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>At 06:57 AM 4/7/2000 -0500, you wrote:<BR>
>>you realize that said projectile penguin could be even more <BR>
>>dangerous, given an old style german pointed helmet, would <BR>
>>they count as an armor piercing weapon?<BR>
><BR>
>I almost put a line in ACQ under the Armor Piercing Ammo paragraph stating<BR>
>that penguins have a 1 in 6 chance of hitting beak first, and counting as<BR>
>AP, but thought better of Dom's sanity.<BR>
<BR>
Much like lawn darts.<BR>
<BR>
- - Jeff Peterson (j_pete@bellsouth.net)<BR>
"There is a time for everything, and a season for every activity under heaven."<BR>
                                               -Ecclesiastes 3:1<BR>
Pete 0609 D258A85-3 S kk- hi++ as+ va++ dr++ so zh- vi+ da++ A833<BR>
NOG #74  AirStar Nova 700<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2000 19:29:13 -0400<BR>
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net><BR>
Subject: RE: The Imperium and the 20th Century - Perfect together?<BR>
<BR>
Okay. This is my last post on the subject. I simply don't have the time to<BR>
keep up with the thread. This message seems to pretty much sum up my opinion<BR>
on the matter of how dissimilar the Imperium is from 20th century America.<BR>
It would appear that, for the most part, you've already decided that the<BR>
Imperium is functionally the same as the Imperium of the far future. I<BR>
disagree as strongly as ever, for a more detailed rationale of this, see my<BR>
"box" examples below.<BR>
<BR>
It's been fun, Jason. :)<BR>
<BR>
>Or, in other words, the Imperium treats planets in something of the same<BR>
way<BR>
>as America treats individuals.  A definite similarity, then, just a<BR>
>difference in scale.  For America, we give individuals freedoms.  For the<BR>
>Imperium, it's entire planets.  In either case, the government recognizes<BR>
>that the governed have some right to how they handle their own business.<BR>
<BR>
You're trying to change the scale on something that doesn't scale up.<BR>
<BR>
First, let's get this out of the way: the Imperium does not give the<BR>
governed (the people of the Imperium) any right to how they handle their own<BR>
business. They give the governments of individual worlds the right to rule<BR>
as they please. This is a huge difference. The Imperial government does<BR>
*not* recognize that the governed have some rights with respect to how they<BR>
handle their business.<BR>
<BR>
What we're talking about here is the difference between "horizontal" rights,<BR>
and "vertical" rights. In the case of horizontal rights, everybody has<BR>
certain rights across the board. This is plainly not the case in the<BR>
Imperium. With respect to personal freedom on the level of late 20th century<BR>
America it's freedom to do what you want as long as nobody else is hurt. The<BR>
big problem facing the US at the transition to the 20th century is not<BR>
whether or not people have these rights, but what defines "hurt". Many hot<BR>
late 20th century American topics (gun control, abortion, child abuse, the<BR>
"proper" use of language when referring to other people, sexual harassment,<BR>
etc.) are some variation of this.<BR>
<BR>
The citizens of the Imperium are only, at least according to canon, extended<BR>
only one right in a horizontal fashion: the right to be free of chattel<BR>
slavery. All other rights are accorded in a vertical fashion. The Emperor<BR>
has the right to do anything he wants. The Archdukes are given rights to do<BR>
what they want within their domains, and so on. Individual rights are<BR>
accorded to planetary governments, *which do not always* answer to the<BR>
people.<BR>
<BR>
Imagine personal freedoms as plastic tokens, and place them on a flat table.<BR>
In a horizontal system of rights, they should all be the same height. In a<BR>
vertical system they may vary. The Imperium doesn't care whether a ruler<BR>
lops off heads left and right *as long as that doesn't interfere with<BR>
trade*. The Imperium doesn't care whether or not a world is at war with<BR>
another *as long as that war doesn't interfere with trade*.<BR>
<BR>
In other words, you have the right to be free from chattel slavery, but not<BR>
the right to be free from a .50 caliber bullet tearing through your skull,<BR>
and somehow those who allow this to go on under their noses are best fit to<BR>
rule because they were born into a certain family. In short, this sounds a<BR>
hell of a lot more like France in the pre-Revolutionary 18th century than<BR>
America in the 20th.<BR>
<BR>
>There is no indication that the belief that scientific methods can be<BR>
>applied to every problem, or even most problems. The Imperium merely<BR>
>classifies things, which every culture does.<BR>
<BR>
>	If every culture does it, we'll need to remove "the idea that every<BR>
>thing can be classified" from  the list of unique 20th century cultural<BR>
>attributes.<BR>
>	There is no indication (that I can think of off hand) that the<BR>
>Imperium does not apply the scientific method to every problem, either, so<BR>
I<BR>
>guess there's no evidence either way there.<BR>
<BR>
Alright, let me restate my original intent, since I was either not clear, or<BR>
I was clear and you are misunderstanding what I was saying. In this case, I<BR>
think that it's a little of both.<BR>
<BR>
What I said was:<BR>
<BR>
"Another characteristic of late 20th century western culture, frequently<BR>
commented on, is the idea that everything can be classified and simplified,<BR>
and that, to some degree, scientific methods can be applied to any problem."<BR>
<BR>
Translated: One element that exists in the culture of the west in the late<BR>
20th century is the notion that everything can be classified AND simplified,<BR>
AND that scientific methods can be applied to every problem. In other words,<BR>
this characteristic is a compound of three things. Simply put, it's not<BR>
enough to say that the Imperium does *one* of these things and say, "see,<BR>
they're the same and as a result share this characteristic, which has three<BR>
elements".<BR>
<BR>
To put it another way, if I had a box with a banana, orange and apple<BR>
inside, and I gave you box with only an orange, or an orange and an apple,<BR>
would you say that the contents of the boxes were the same? If you're a<BR>
reasonable fellow, I suspect you wouldn't.<BR>
<BR>
This applies also to the larger issue that we are discussing. Your original<BR>
point was that late 20th century western (or more specifically, American)<BR>
culture is the same as Imperial culture. Because I kept disagreeing on the<BR>
similarities that you were bringing up, you asked me to give an account of<BR>
what late 20th century American society looks like. Presumably, the intent<BR>
would be to show significant similarities between the two. Again, imagine<BR>
20th century America as one box, and the Imperium as another. If I fill up<BR>
one box with assorted fruit, and another box with mixed fruits and<BR>
vegetables, is it reasonable to say that the contents of both boxes are the<BR>
same? I don't think so, even if there is one banana in the late 20th century<BR>
/ west / America box, and two bananas in the Imperium box.<BR>
<BR>
The contents are quite different. Even if the boxes are the same size, or<BR>
they weigh the same, or they even have certain similarities in contents, the<BR>
contents are not functionally the same.<BR>
<BR>
It is apparent to me that I made a mistake when I was writing the paragraph<BR>
quoted above. Yes, every culture classifies things. This much is certainly<BR>
true. It is reasonable to assume that as long as human beings have had the<BR>
capacity for language, they've been classifying things. This is why we have<BR>
oak *trees*, walnut *trees* and cherry *trees*, and so on. A better choice<BR>
on my part would have been "quantify" in place of "classify". I apologize<BR>
for the misunderstanding I have caused through the improper use of an<BR>
adjective.<BR>
<BR>
>>By simplifying a problem, I mean just that. The issue of violence in<BR>
>>America is boiled down to, for example, the "evil media", and the "evil<BR>
guns",<BR>
>>while people who are really interested in the problem realize that it's<BR>
much more<BR>
>> complicated.<BR>
><BR>
>As for simplifying a problem, how about the psionics suppressions?  Some<BR>
>psionic researchers were found to be corrupt so suddenly the Imperial<BR>
>populace as a whole identified all psionics as immoral and tools of the<BR>
>Zhodani, so they were suppressed and removed.  That does seem to be an<BR>
>example of this over-simplifying trend in the Imperium.<BR>
<BR>
Actually, you've got it the wrong way around. You really can't see the<BR>
notion that the populace has no say in the Imperium, can you? The bit for<BR>
the players about the Psionics Suppressions makes it appear that the<BR>
populace was mobilized against psionics, so they had to act. In this case,<BR>
it goes deeper than that.<BR>
<BR>
In the GM's section (that is to say, what *really* happened) was that it was<BR>
discovered by the Imperial government that the majority of psionics<BR>
institutes Spinward of Corridor were receiving money from the Zhodani. The<BR>
Imperial government went into action and took out the psionics institutes in<BR>
a wave of Psionics Suppressions. They also used a technique called<BR>
"psycho-history", which was cribbed from Asimov. Psycho-history is a<BR>
fictional discipline which allows you to predict *precisely* how people will<BR>
act on a huge scale given the stimuli they are receiving, or influence<BR>
*precisely* how people will act on a huge scale by feeding them certain<BR>
stimuli. This is something akin to a combination of a number of different<BR>
disciplines. The experimental use of the technique caused more problems than<BR>
they thought it would, the citizens of the Imperium simply could not stand<BR>
psionics anymore as a result of this experiment (from "Library Data: N-Z").<BR>
<BR>
This is not evidence that the problem was simplified, just that the Imperium<BR>
saw a threat to security, removed it, and a psycho-historical experiment<BR>
went awry, causing much different effects than were intended.<BR>
<BR>
>>>In America, technological progress is believed to be the ultimate problem<BR>
>>>solver: no problem can exist that the application of the appropriate<BR>
>>>technology can't solve.<BR>
<snip><BR>
>>Yes, but the Longbow Project is a problem that the application of the<BR>
>>appropriate technology can solve, and it would be reasonable to apply<BR>
>>technology to this end.<BR>
><BR>
>Just because it IS actually reasonable it's disqualified from the "science<BR>
>can solve everything" idea, eh?  Oh well.  It sounds like the kind of<BR>
hokey,<BR>
>overblown projects that American research is always into to me.<BR>
<BR>
Okay, first, please note that you've substituted "science" for "technology"<BR>
here. The two words have different meanings, so "science can solve<BR>
anything," and that 20th century America believes that no problem can exist<BR>
that the application of the appropriate technology can't solve. Now, onto<BR>
the second point:<BR>
<BR>
The reasonable use of technology does not give any evidence that a culture<BR>
believes that technology is the ultimate problem solver. It just means that<BR>
they're using technology to solve a problem. The difference here can be<BR>
expressed in this fashion:<BR>
<BR>
The Imperium: Our enemies, the Zhodani, keep sending expeditions to the<BR>
center of the galaxy. They might find something really big or interesting<BR>
there that they can use to kick our butts to kingdom come. We are hemmed in<BR>
Coreward by a race of barbarian dogs who would likely be unreceptive to the<BR>
idea of big, well-equipped scout ships and military vessels jumping through<BR>
their area of space. I guess we'll have to build some sort of gigantic radar<BR>
that we can use to keep our eye on the Zhodani as the head toward the core.<BR>
It'll be expensive, but it's likely that it will pay off.<BR>
<BR>
The Imperium: We've got this new technology that allows us to build a big<BR>
radar! Great! Let's spend huge amounts of money to build one in case<BR>
somebody heads toward the galactic core. This new technology will solve all<BR>
of our problems!<BR>
<BR>
What I am talking about here is how new technologies are employed<BR>
immediately toward solving existing problems. Take a look at the way<BR>
television was received in America, the way the internet was treated, the<BR>
way that cell phones are treated. Technology can only *solve* problems, and<BR>
only very rarely do we admit that technology can cause problems.<BR>
<BR>
>How about the psionic suppressions again?  There is a theory (see the<BR>
>library data entry - Crises of '99) that they were a psycho-historical<BR>
>experiment gone wrong.  The government of the Imperium felt that science<BR>
(in<BR>
>thr form of unproven psycho-historical techniques) would help them remove<BR>
>the power of the psionics institutes and it ended up going too far.<BR>
<BR>
Actually, according to the Library Data entry in Supplement 11, this is<BR>
indeed precisely what happened. In addition, research into psycho-history<BR>
stopped afterwards. The Imperium acknowledged that psycho-history was not a<BR>
problem solver.<BR>
<BR>
>>Just because research is conducted doesn't mean that the Imperium is as<BR>
>>fascinated with the new in the same way that America is. This trend is<BR>
>>especially acute in the American medical field (which even our Western<BR>
>>neighbors the Europeans tend to look at with puzzlement). The idea is that<BR>
>>sleeker machines and more pills will solve every medical problem,<BR>
including<BR>
>>behavioral and emotional problems (with generally mixed results).<BR>
>>This is almost purely American. We embrace every new technology, and sing<BR>
>>its praises and rush headlong into the use of these technologies. Even<BR>
other<BR>
>>Western cultures don't tend to do this.<BR>
><BR>
>For the Imperium, how about the TNS reports on drop tanks from 1105-1106?<BR>
A<BR>
>brand new, unproven technology is introduced and plans are immediatly made<BR>
>to supply it everywhere it can be useful, while rosey projections are made<BR>
>as to how it will improve transportation?  Sounds rather like the attitude<BR>
>of technology solving our problems for us.<BR>
<BR>
It doesn't sound that way. A new technology was developed. They tested it,<BR>
it worked, and Imperial megacorporations planned to integrate its use into<BR>
their shipping. There is no indication that they thought that drop tanks<BR>
would solve their problems, merely that it could be used to enhance<BR>
shipping.<BR>
<BR>
Even if this is evidence that this is similar to the way Americans would<BR>
treat such a technology (and I disagree that it is), is it evidence of a<BR>
general trend? How come there aren't hundreds of TNS entries about how new<BR>
gizmos and gadgets are going to revolutionize every field under the sun?<BR>
Surely, this would merit more than one mention. How come the Imperium is<BR>
actually portrayed as *slow* to make use of new technologies: genetic<BR>
engineering, cybernetics, robotics?<BR>
<BR>
This sounds atypical for a culture that immediately applies new technologies<BR>
to all sorts of problems. Indeed, it sounds like a culture that thinks<BR>
through what implications a new technology might have on their society, and<BR>
(in the case of J-6 drives, for example) specifically limits their use.<BR>
<BR>
>Well, if it is unique to American culture;<BR>
>How about the Imperial belief that the tavrchedl are "Thought Police", and<BR>
>oppress the Zhodani proles?  They tend to believe that the Proles, given a<BR>
>chance, would rise up against their noble leaders, but that the tavrchedl<BR>
>make sure this doesn't happen.  This seems to be a belief that the 3I's<BR>
>government is more natural to humaniti than that of the Zhodani, and that<BR>
>the Zhodani government must repress it's people to remain in power, as it's<BR>
>not the same as the superior system of the 3I.<BR>
<BR>
Fair question. I checked the Library Data and found that there is no<BR>
indication that Imperials  believe that the proles would want to rise up and<BR>
defeat their masters. It does say that the Imperials don't like the Zhodani<BR>
because they use psionics, and Imperials are afraid that they might pry into<BR>
their minds, and they the Imperials fear the loss of local (presumably<BR>
planetwide) autonomy.<BR>
<BR>
We've already established that the Imperials don't like psionics (due to a<BR>
psycho-historical experiment gone awry) and that the Imperium gives local<BR>
planets to do whatever they wish with respect to their citizens.<BR>
<BR>
>I believe that the Imperium's attitude towards small-scale warfare amoung<BR>
>member planets is present in the background to allow for "mercenary style"<BR>
>campaigns.  It was, essentially, grafted into Imperial culture to allow for<BR>
>a certain style of play without consideration of all its implications.<BR>
<BR>
I know. You've said this already. However, no matter *how* this ended up as<BR>
part of the background, it is part of the background. In order to deal with<BR>
it realistically, one must acknowledge the fact that western democracies,<BR>
and specifically America, do not see this as acceptable. They do not see<BR>
this as acceptable because there are certain philosophical underpinnings in<BR>
our culture which specifically preclude this. The Imperium apparently<BR>
doesn't have these same underpinnings. Hereditary nobility and an<BR>
aristocratic, quasi-feudal governments do not appear in late 20th century<BR>
western democracies, specifically and especially America. Again, there are<BR>
certain philosophical underpinnings in our culture which specifically<BR>
preclude this, which the Imperium apparently doesn't have.<BR>
<BR>
These philosophical underpinnings are the things that make cultures<BR>
different. These are what make 20th century China different from 19th<BR>
century Russia, and 18th century France different from ancient Greece, and<BR>
so on. These differences are more than just cosmetic.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2000 23:30:53 GMT<BR>
From: j_pete@bellsouth.net (Pete)<BR>
Subject: Re: Duelling Penguins<BR>
<BR>
On Fri, 7 Apr 2000 12:44:24 +0100, "Derrick Jones"<BR>
<dojones.whitestar@btinternet.com> wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Matt wrote...<BR>
><BR>
>>I run. You (being an ex-military type chappie) quickly gain on me as I grab<BR>
>>for my inhaler after about 50 yards.  <BR>
>yes the movement rate of my Land Rover probably is slightly higher than your <BR>
>foot slogging....<BR>
><BR>
>>I attempt to hide, but your superior  (DJ: Laugh!!!!!)<BR>
>>military training quickly overcomes my feeble attempt at camoflage. I grovel<BR>
>>pathetically to no avail (you heartless b*stard! <g>). <BR>
><BR>
>Ah, you remember my interrogation techniques.....<BR>
><BR>
>>Then after being<BR>
>>forced to duel, as we stand back to back, loaded Penguin in hand, on the<BR>
>>count of 1 we both step forward, but rather than proceeding further on '2',<BR>
>>I whirl round and beat you upside da head wi' da penguin. See point 4 above.<BR>
><BR>
>Remember, this Amateur has no experience of duelling whatsoever, so I would<BR>
>turn up, with my wild penguin flapping its tiny flippers frantically, accompanied<BR>
>by my nominated second who will ensure fair play... Would Miss Ditzie please<BR>
>step forward. Suitably attired for the occasion...<BR>
><BR>
>Answer that one, b*st*rd!!!! <g><BR>
><BR>
>I stand victorious! (provided the young lady would deem to turn up for the fun, <BR>
>otherwise, put Landrover into reverse.......)<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
>(this is probably getting a bit silly...)<BR>
<BR>
...Getting?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- - Jeff Peterson (j_pete@bellsouth.net)<BR>
"There is a time for everything, and a season for every activity under heaven."<BR>
                                               -Ecclesiastes 3:1<BR>
Pete 0609 D258A85-3 S kk- hi++ as+ va++ dr++ so zh- vi+ da++ A833<BR>
NOG #74  AirStar Nova 700<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2000 19:46:22 -0400<BR>
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net><BR>
Subject: RE: Wars within the Imperium<BR>
<BR>
>As an example of the attitude the Imperium probably has, look at the<BR>
>attitude of the US to the 1982 Falklands War.<BR>
><BR>
>That was was between two American "client/ally" states (I dont think it's<BR>
>pushing it too hard to compare the Imperium to the Pax Americana), and the<BR>
>USA really didnt have a problem - just as long as they played nice, and<BR>
>nobody asked them to pick a side.<BR>
<BR>
I don't think that it's pushing too hard to compare it in a broad sense,<BR>
that is to say that the two situations are similar. In the case of the<BR>
Imperial worlds, they are *members* of the Imperium, not client states or<BR>
allies (that's why on the big Imperial map there are lots of small client<BR>
states on the borders of the Imperium).<BR>
<BR>
>I loved the Pennsylvania war analogy btw :)<BR>
<BR>
Thank you, I try! (...and I've just been waiting for an excuse to have<BR>
Philadelphia secede from the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania [my apologies to<BR>
any of you who may be living "upstate"].)<BR>
<BR>
:)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2000 17:41:29 -0700<BR>
From: Jesse DeGraff <jdegraff@pacbell.net><BR>
Subject: RE: Website<BR>
<BR>
I love the bit (pun :) in the artist's section about Andy's 2 micron dot :)<BR>
LOL!<BR>
Jesse<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of SD Mooney<BR>
> Sent: Thursday, April 06, 2000 11:34 PM<BR>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> Subject: Website<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> In beta....<BR>
><BR>
> http://www.core.org.uk/<BR>
><BR>
> Comments welcomed.<BR>
><BR>
> Dom<BR>
> -------------Dom Mooney---webmaster@bits.org.uk----------------<BR>
>                   BITS - British Isles Traveller Support.<BR>
>   http://www.bits.org.uk/              mailto:bits@bits.org.uk<BR>
> Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
> GURPS is a registered trademark of Steve Jackson Games, Inc.<BR>
> BITS and CORE are trademarks of BITS UK Limited.<BR>
> All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2268<BR>
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Traveller-digest      Saturday, April 8 2000      Volume 1999 : Number 2269<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Astronomy in the 57th Century<BR>
Re: Re Rugby (OT) during Gencon<BR>
Psionic detection (was Re: Famile Spofulam Hi-Sensitivity Scout)<BR>
Montana<BR>
Some Questions about FF&S2 (T4 edition)<BR>
The Ludowick Gambit <longish><BR>
Re: Astronomy in the 57th Century<BR>
Re: The Landgrab: Regina/ Regina<BR>
Re: Warrant of the Restoration<BR>
Re: TL disparities in the OTU<BR>
Re: The Ludowick Gambit <longish><BR>
RE: Gencon UK<BR>
Re: Tech Question: GT stats/effects for Orbital Kinetic weapon (Thor)<BR>
Re: Wars within the Imperium<BR>
RE: TL disparities in the OTU<BR>
Ortillery (Orbital Artillery)<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2000 21:04:11 -0400<BR>
From: Jeff Zeitlin <jzeitlin@cyburban.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Astronomy in the 57th Century<BR>
<BR>
On Thu, 6 Apr 2000 15:03:43 -0400 (EDT), Peter Newman<BR>
<pnewman@gci.net> wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Or, as was once explained by David Gerrold:<BR>
<BR>
>Character #1: "Unlike on the space station you live on<BR>
>on a planet gravity pulls you in towards the center.<BR>
>Character #2 "That doesn't make any sense."<BR>
>Charecter #1 "The planet spins in the opposite direction<BR>
>that the ship does."<BR>
>Charecter #2 "Oh, that makes sense."<BR>
<BR>
Wow! I'm not the only one that read _The_Galactic_Whirlpool_!<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
Jeff Zeitlin<BR>
jzeitlin@cyburban.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2000 18:22:39<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Re Rugby (OT) during Gencon<BR>
<BR>
At 03:02 PM 4/7/2000 -0400, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Oh, and one other thing . . . remove all those wussies pads!<BR>
<BR>
I used to plat (free safety and cornerback), and also had the pleasure of<BR>
meeting Hall of Fame Raiders player Lyle Alzedo.  I was, at the time, 6'<BR>
and close to 200 lbs.  His hand envolped mine up to the wrist.<BR>
<BR>
I'll take the pads, thank you...<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2000 21:22:11 -0400<BR>
From: "Steven E. Ehrbar" <ehrbar@SoftHome.net><BR>
Subject: Psionic detection (was Re: Famile Spofulam Hi-Sensitivity Scout)<BR>
<BR>
From: "Leonard Erickson" <shadow@krypton.rain.com><BR>
> Cute. But highly impractical.<BR>
><BR>
> The resolving power of your sensor is determined by it's "diameter"<BR>
> versus the distance. At 7 light months, you'll need one *huge* sensor<BR>
> to resolve things even a *meter* across.<BR>
<BR>
Sure, but what speed do psionics propagate?<BR>
<BR>
A GURPS-rules psionicist with Telerecive-linked telepathic power 70 with the<BR>
limitation "requires one hour of preparation to use" and Telerecieve skill<BR>
of IQ+13 instead.  Total character cost of 135 character points (before any<BR>
unusual backgrounds, etc.), and he has a 3,671 *parsec* range...<BR>
<BR>
So are Zhodani psionicists doing their own Longbow equivalent, but by<BR>
reading minds instead of using telescopes?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2000 13:14:50 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
From: Les Howie <travgrognard@yahoo.ca><BR>
Subject: Montana<BR>
<BR>
Did anyone keep the description of the Montana class<BR>
battleship?  Could such a kind soul send it off to me.<BR>
 Thanks!<BR>
<BR>
=====<BR>
Les Howie<BR>
Wargaming Gearhead Heretic<BR>
imtu 1.0: tc t4 ru- ge++ !3i c++ jt++ au+ ls++ pi+ ta-- he++<BR>
<BR>
_______________________________________________________<BR>
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------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2000 22:01:38 EDT<BR>
From: Ludowick@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Some Questions about FF&S2 (T4 edition)<BR>
<BR>
Hikeeba!<BR>
<BR>
I've got my forepaws on a copy of FF&S2 for adding some "chrome"<BR>
to my CT/MT hybrid TU.  I need to know the following:<BR>
<BR>
1. FF&S2 appears to use a linear armor value system, different from <BR>
   the one used in the T4 vehicle construction system.  Am I correct <BR>
   in this?  Is the linear system used consistently throughout FF&S2?<BR>
<BR>
2. Many weapon tables use formulae to determine a "short" range.  I am <BR>
   assuming that this is the range band for the weapon in question where <BR>
   the chance to hit will be a "routine" or "average" task, not the max-<BR>
   imum weapon range.  Is this correct (the range seems too short other-<BR>
   wise)?   <BR>
<BR>
3. Many weapon evaluation rules use a formula to derive a "damage value".<BR>
   Is this the number of damage dice a weapon does (it seems a bit high <BR>
   for small arms), or is it closer to MT/Striker penetration.<BR>
<BR>
4. The small arms & gauss guns use the damage value formula -- (effective <BR>
   energy ^ 0.5) / 10.5.  I assume for these equations that the Eeff <BR>
   term is Emuzzle value.  Is this correct?<BR>
<BR>
5. Does anyone have additional info for converting FF&S2 weapons/gear <BR>
   into MT/Striker stats?  I mostly know what to do, but am looking <BR>
   for a few pointers.<BR>
<BR>
Ludowick@aol.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2000 22:08:12 EDT<BR>
From: Ludowick@aol.com<BR>
Subject: The Ludowick Gambit <longish><BR>
<BR>
Okay.  If this has never been done before, in canon or the TML, then <BR>
I coin the following desparate measure "The Ludowick Gambit".<BR>
<BR>
Assuming you've got a large interstellar Traveller state, faced with <BR>
a rapidly approaching peril (c. jump-6 or even a bit faster), such as:<BR>
<BR>
"Look out! here comes the Empress Wave!"<BR>
<BR>
 or...<BR>
<BR>
"Aiieeee! the Primordials are attacking!" <BR>
<BR>
or you have a rapidly receding peril, like:<BR>
<BR>
"That son of thylacine, Dulinor, has shot the emperor and is fleeing <BR>
back to his stronghold in the Illelish sector!"<BR>
<BR>
What can you do?  Here's a plan.<BR>
<BR>
1. Get a bunch of small starships crewed by dependable sophs who don't <BR>
   mind high mortality rates (i.e. "Scouts").  Your going to need a <BR>
   moderately large number of both, so they should also be inexpensive.<BR>
   (Remember, this is for use in extreme situations).  If YTU has the <BR>
   heretical "jump-torpedo" this gambit can be common-place.<BR>
<BR>
2. Deliberately misjump these ships.  Hopefully you're using CT misjump <BR>
   rules.  Don't do it by jumping within the 100D limit, just have the <BR>
   engineer and/or navigator tweak the j-drive a bit to produce a random <BR>
   misjump instead of an explosion.<BR>
<BR>
3. Now for the good bit.  About 1 in 6 of these ships will go in the <BR>
   direction you want (ahead of the advancing/receding peril).  Another <BR>
   2 in 6 will kind of go where you want (sort of, kinda, maybe, etc.).<BR>
<BR>
4. With a bit of luck, you can send ships up to 36 parsecs in one week <BR>
   (results shown are not typical).  The more ships you misjump, well, <BR>
   statistics are on your side.  There's a good chance your message will <BR>
   get ahead of the a/r peril (and won't it be surprised).  <BR>
<BR>
5. Assuming standard stellar densities, you can routinely recover half of <BR>
   your ships/crews, so this isn't necessarily a suicide mission.  Morale <BR>
   should be high.<BR>
<BR>
6. Now for the stats.  Assuming you use a deliberate +5 DM (to avoid any <BR>
   explosions):<BR>
<BR>
    c. 42% misjump<BR>
    c. 7% misjump in the right direction<BR>
    c. 1% take 1 week to misjump in the right direction<BR>
    average distance jumped by the 1% above: 12.25 parsecs<BR>
    c. 0.03% will misjump 36 parsecs in 1 week, in the right direction<BR>
<BR>
Other permutations are left to the individual ref/emperor.  You may allow <BR>
automatic misjumps, more than doubling the above figures, for example.<BR>
And a two week stint in jumpspace can still overtake a jump-6 peril, if you<BR>
roll a high enough misjump distance.<BR>
<BR>
7. Logistics.  With a population in the 10^13 range, and something as nasty <BR>
   as the "Primordial Dulinor Wave" approaching, throw the logistics of the <BR>
   operation out the window.  <BR>
<BR>
In conclusion:  I think we can do this.  We have the technology.  We have <BR>
the will.  We can prepare for almost any disaster:<BR>
<BR>
Zhodani facing Empress Wave: Noble Lobotomy Time (we'll miss the Droyne...)<BR>
<BR>
Primordials advancing on Consulate: Noble Lobotomy Time (poor Droyne...)<BR>
<BR>
Dulinor fleeing to Illelish: Busted!  No Rebellion, no Black War, No Virus!<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Ludowick here, just trying to restore sanity to all Traveller Universes, <BR>
everywhere.<BR>
<BR>
P.S.  If this has been done before, you have my sincerest apologies, damn you.<BR>
:)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2000 18:30:41 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Astronomy in the 57th Century<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) wrote<BR>
><BR>
>> > shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) wrote<BR>
>> ><BR>
>> >> > We could take a subsidized merchant & fill its whole cargo<BR>
>> >> > hold full of batteries. Then we run the whole observatory<BR>
>> >> > (and the subbie itself) off of the batteries. When it runs dry<BR>
>> >> > we switch to the next subbie.<BR>
><BR>
>> >> Use fuel cells. Just ship out "tankers" loaded with LOX and LH2. The<BR>
>> >> unneeded water can be shipped back.<BR>
><BR>
>> > Fuel cells are a good idea but in Traveller batteries have <BR>
>> > a higher energy density than fuel cells, especially considering <BR>
>> > fuel needs, which is why I picked batteries.<BR>
>> <BR>
>> But "energy density" isn't terribly relevant on a fixed installation. <BR>
><BR>
> The batteries or fuel cell fuel have to be transported to<BR>
> the installation on a ship. If it can hold more power than<BR>
> you will not have to send a ship as often and that is<BR>
> cheaper.<BR>
<BR>
Except that with fuel cells *all* you transport is the fuel. The cells<BR>
themselves will be built into the base, All so do is fill the LOX and<BR>
LH2 tanks and empty the water tank. <BR>
<BR>
Compare that with swapping out *tons* of batteries. Pumping liquids is<BR>
going to be easier than any method of changing batteries.<BR>
<BR>
>> > Therefore a 15 MW fuel cell and 1000 hours (42 days) fuel <BR>
>> > at TL 14 will need 2,000 kl (143 displacement tons) of fuel.<BR>
>> > The fuel cell itself will take up 10 kl. At TL 12 the<BR>
>> > fuel cell needs 5,000 kl fuel & occupies 20 kl itself.<BR>
>> > (A total volume of 359 tons)<BR>
>> > Batteries to get 15 MW/hour for 1,000 hours will need a 3,750<BR>
>> > MW battery. This battery will take up 1,500 kl (107 displacement<BR>
>> > tons). At TL 12 it takes up 2,500 kl (179 tons).<BR>
>> > Therefore, at least at TL 12-15, the batteries are a better <BR>
>> > use of space albeit a more expensive one.<BR>
<BR>
The rules you quote above are *badly* broken. The amount of fuel<BR>
required for a given power output is *not* going to change that<BR>
dramaticly. While the conversion of the energy released by combining<BR>
hydrogen and oxygen to electricity isn't 100% efficient, it's sure as<BR>
hell better than *50*%!<BR>
<BR>
That means that the max possible change in amount of fuel required is<BR>
only a factor of 2. And that's between TL *7*, and whatever TL these<BR>
cells are.<BR>
<BR>
I'm also suspicious of the power output per ton of fuel for the fuel<BR>
cells, but that's another matter.<BR>
<BR>
>> The problem is that batteries have to be *charged* (unless they are<BR>
>> primary cells, in which case they have to be *replaced* when they run<BR>
>> down). <BR>
><BR>
> An empty fuel tank is of no more use than dead batteries.<BR>
<BR>
> In the scenario we are discussing the batteries (or fuel cell<BR>
> fuel) are brought in on a Subsidized Merchant. At TL 15 this<BR>
> ship has a 200 ton cargo bay. If we fill it full of TL 14<BR>
> batteries it can run our observatory for 1,869 hours (78 days).<BR>
> If we fill it full of fuel cell fuel it can run our observatory<BR>
> for only 1,399 hours (58 days). Therefore batteries are superior.<BR>
<BR>
Except that since the bulkier part of the fuel is LH2, you can store<BR>
*that* in the *fuel* tanks on the ship. How much fuel can your<BR>
subsidized merchant carry, and how much of that does it need to make<BR>
two J-1 jumps? <BR>
<BR>
That "spare" capacity can be used to carry LH2. <BR>
<BR>
> On the other hand our batteries will cost MCr 27 while our<BR>
> fuel cell fuel will cost only MCr 0.675. This means that over<BR>
> a period of 40 refills (6.35 years) you will spend MCr 27 on<BR>
> the fuel and have nothing left over. Assuming I buy two 200<BR>
> ton batteries (so I can recharge one out system while the<BR>
> other is in use) my method is still cheaper over periods<BR>
> of 12.7+ years. On the other hand I had to pay MCr 54 up front <BR>
> and you did not. Assuming that interest on loans to buy<BR>
> batteries is the same 150% of the amount borrowed over the life <BR>
> of the loan that starship loans are I still save money. At the <BR>
> end of 40 years you will have spent Mcr 170 on fuel (and MCr<BR>
> 0.2 on your generator itself) and have nothing left. I will have <BR>
> put MCr 10.8 down and paid MCr 108 on my loan for a total cost <BR>
> of Mcr 118.8. I will still have 2 really big batteries. Batteries <BR>
> are cheaper. <BR>
<BR>
Check out battery lifetimes for "deep cycle" use, which is what you are<BR>
talking about.<BR>
<BR>
>> Given the enormous size of the telescopes, the extra space for the fuel<BR>
>> cells hardly matters. And they are an actual power *source* rather than<BR>
>> a power *storage* device.<BR>
><BR>
> Its not the space at the telescope it is the space on the<BR>
> ship that brings the fuel to the telescope that is the issue.<BR>
<BR>
>> With batteries, you have to run a reactor to recharge them. And this<BR>
>> will take a fair amount of time, as the recharge rate is limited if you<BR>
>> want the batteries to last more than a few charge/discharge cycles. <BR>
><BR>
> You do not recharge the batteries on the spot you jump them out<BR>
> and recharge them at the other end. Then you jump them back in.<BR>
<BR>
Which involves a *lot* of hard work. Much easier (and simpler) to just<BR>
pump fuel.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2000 19:12:09 -0700<BR>
From: Cheryl <cheryl@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: The Landgrab: Regina/ Regina<BR>
<BR>
on 4/5/00 3:31 AM, Trevor, Peter at Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Cheryl Glenn wrote:<BR>
>> Our Traveller gaming group is laying claim to Regina/Regina<BR>
>> in the landgrab.<BR>
....<BR>
>> <BR>
>> Until then see our site at: www.travellercentral.com.<BR>
> <BR>
> Just had a quick peek at your web site, looka nice.  Missing from<BR>
> your canon survey is the map and info on Regina that  appears  in<BR>
> the Grand Survey/Grand Census and World Builders Handbook.<BR>
> <BR>
> Regards PLST<BR>
The reason that that data is missing is because I don't have those books. If<BR>
you can e-mail it to me I'd be more than happy to add it. What's up on the<BR>
site right now is just the very barest beginning of what we will be posting.<BR>
<BR>
Thanks, Cheryl (cheryl@europa.com)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2000 19:06:47 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Warrant of the Restoration<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>> And your average Free Trader *doesn't* have guns and ship mounted<BR>
>> Weapons?<BR>
><BR>
> Yours or mine?  ;-)<BR>
<BR>
I said *average*! That lets *both* of us out...<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2000 19:13:12 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: TL disparities in the OTU<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Steven Ehrbar writes:<BR>
>>From: "Ian Ferguson" <ian@vax2.concordia.ca><BR>
>>>There is certainly a good arguement to made for that POV.  On the<BR>
>>>other hand, I had always assumed (perhaps unwisely) that the great<BR>
>>>majority of worlds occupied by humans were colonized from offworld,<BR>
>>>presumably using TL 9+ ships.<BR>
>>Sure.  But it's difficult to maintain full TL without a fully developed<BR>
>>industrial base, so the colony will probably be one or two behind to begin<BR>
>>with.  Many colony worlds also were founded during the First Imperium,<BR>
>>meaning they were cut off from trade (including spare parts and other things<BR>
>>the local colony was not equipped to make) for over a thousand years.<BR>
><BR>
>         This would cover the worlds that were colonized early, had low<BR>
>         Pop, were cut off, and could not recover (a thousand years is a lot<BR>
>         of time to increase Pop and advance TL, especially if you start with<BR>
>         lots of knowledge).<BR>
<BR>
Don't forget that if civilzation fell *now*, we'd loose a *lot* of<BR>
knowledge, simply because the paper most books are printed on won't<BR>
*last* even a *hundred* years.<BR>
<BR>
It'll get even *worse* if the stuff is on electronic media.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2000 22:02:55 -0500<BR>
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: Re: The Ludowick Gambit <longish><BR>
<BR>
Ludowick@aol.com wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> Okay.  If this has never been done before, in canon or the TML, then<BR>
> I coin the following desparate measure "The Ludowick Gambit".<BR>
> <BR>
> Assuming you've got a large interstellar Traveller state, faced with<BR>
> a rapidly approaching peril (c. jump-6 or even a bit faster), such as:<BR>
> <BR>
> "Look out! here comes the Empress Wave!"<BR>
> <BR>
>  or...<BR>
> <BR>
> "Aiieeee! the Primordials are attacking!"<BR>
> <BR>
> or you have a rapidly receding peril, like:<BR>
> <BR>
> "That son of thylacine, Dulinor, has shot the emperor and is fleeing<BR>
> back to his stronghold in the Illelish sector!"<BR>
> <BR>
> What can you do?  Here's a plan.<BR>
> <BR>
> 1. Get a bunch of small starships crewed by dependable sophs who don't<BR>
>    mind high mortality rates (i.e. "Scouts").  Your going to need a<BR>
>    moderately large number of both, so they should also be inexpensive.<BR>
>    (Remember, this is for use in extreme situations).  If YTU has the<BR>
>    heretical "jump-torpedo" this gambit can be common-place.<BR>
> <BR>
> 2. Deliberately misjump these ships.  Hopefully you're using CT misjump<BR>
>    rules.  Don't do it by jumping within the 100D limit, just have the<BR>
>    engineer and/or navigator tweak the j-drive a bit to produce a random<BR>
>    misjump instead of an explosion.<BR>
> <BR>
> 3. Now for the good bit.  About 1 in 6 of these ships will go in the<BR>
>    direction you want (ahead of the advancing/receding peril).  Another<BR>
>    2 in 6 will kind of go where you want (sort of, kinda, maybe, etc.).<BR>
> <BR>
> 4. With a bit of luck, you can send ships up to 36 parsecs in one week<BR>
>    (results shown are not typical).  The more ships you misjump, well,<BR>
>    statistics are on your side.  There's a good chance your message will<BR>
>    get ahead of the a/r peril (and won't it be surprised).<BR>
> <BR>
> 5. Assuming standard stellar densities, you can routinely recover half of<BR>
>    your ships/crews, so this isn't necessarily a suicide mission.  Morale<BR>
>    should be high.<BR>
<BR>
This is one of the most twisted ideas I've seen on the TML in nearly two<BR>
years.  I _like_ it!<BR>
<BR>
In fact, I like it so much, I designed a ship optimized for this mission<BR>
(T4/FF&S2).  (I based it on the AuricTech F21-2 Light Transport.)  While<BR>
I haven't transcribed the description into text yet, the highlights of<BR>
the _Vaya Con Dios_ class are:<BR>
<BR>
1.  Low cost.  Assuming a 10% discount for bulk purchases, each one<BR>
costs only MCr 17.905.<BR>
<BR>
2.  Long legs.  In addition to the J2 drive, this 100 dton ship carries<BR>
an extra 50 dtons of fuel (that's five extra parsecs range).  The ship<BR>
also carries a fuel purification plant and scoops.<BR>
<BR>
3.  Long-term habitability.  The _Vaya Con Dios_ class has two large<BR>
staterooms for its optimal crew of two, as well as an emergency low<BR>
berth.  There is sufficient food storage (Normal quality, processed for<BR>
storage) for two sophonts to survive for _two years_.  Of course, food<BR>
storage volumes in FF&S2 include an extra week of Emergency rations for<BR>
each two weeks of Normal rations....<BR>
<BR>
Interested lunat ^h^h^h^h^h parties can contact me for an RTF file of<BR>
the ship.<BR>
<BR>
<<snip>><BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2000 15:09:55 +1200<BR>
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: Gencon UK<BR>
<BR>
> On Behalf Of Douglas E. Berry<BR>
> We regularly get British tourists who inquire about driving to Disneyland<BR>
> "for the day."  Disneyland is 450 miles, and two mountain ranges, from San<BR>
> Francisco.<BR>
<BR>
Only 450 miles ?<BR>
That's a day's drive isn't it ?<BR>
<BR>
Hell, at an average of 80mph ( is there anyone who travels slower than that<BR>
on long distance trips ?) it's, what, under six hours.<BR>
<BR>
There's 24 in a day, y'know.<BR>
<BR>
ObTrav : above is example of PC's figuring out how long their trip is going<BR>
take.<BR>
<BR>
Frankie<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2000 19:20:33 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Tech Question: GT stats/effects for Orbital Kinetic weapon (Thor)<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> But, I'm not looking to start a flame. I am honestly interested in the <BR>
> technical aspects of a Orbital Kinetic Bombardment Weapon - sometimes called <BR>
> a Thor.<BR>
<BR>
"Thor" was the name of the project to develop them. Which failed to get<BR>
funding.<BR>
<BR>
> Normally such a weapon is described as "dropping crowbars" - dense rods of <BR>
> metal that slam into their targets using nothing but KE to do their damage.<BR>
<BR>
"Flying crowbars" for anti-tank use. You need bigger ones for<BR>
bigger/harder targets.<BR>
<BR>
> Without degrading into a huge argument - _assuming_ I wanted to use these in <BR>
> GT, would anyone wanna guess at their stats? Are they a tactical (ie <BR>
> Buildings, Tanks, etc) or Strategic (cities) weapon?<BR>
<BR>
Tactical. The largest thing I've ever heard considered as a target was<BR>
an aircraft carrier. And for those (and missile silos) you use "Flying<BR>
telephone poles."<BR>
<BR>
> How much space do they need on the firing ship?<BR>
<BR>
See above. Figure tbe size of the crowbar, plus a de-orbit rocket<BR>
engine. Or use a mass driver. <BR>
<BR>
> How accurate would they be?<BR>
<BR>
*If* we can develop the sensors that can see thru the plasma sheath,<BR>
and the pattern recoginition software, then they'd be fairly accurate.<BR>
<BR>
Unguided? Not at all accurate. <BR>
<BR>
The idea is that when "fired" they'd be told what sort of target to<BR>
look for. So, if you launch a cluster of them at a bunch of tanks, and<BR>
have them "programmed" to seek tanks, each one will pick a tank once<BR>
they get into visual range. <BR>
<BR>
It's *possible* (but unlikely) that they'd all pick the same tank. More<BR>
likely they'll each pick a "random" tank.<BR>
<BR>
> How much damage would they do?<BR>
<BR>
Depends on their mass (and on orbital velocity for the planet). They<BR>
should impact at close to orbital velocity. For earth, that's about 8<BR>
km/sec. <BR>
<BR>
E = .5*M*V^2<BR>
E in joules<BR>
M in kilos<BR>
V in meters/second<BR>
<BR>
So say that the crowbar weighs 10 kilos. That gives an energy of 3.2e8<BR>
Joules (320 million Joules). <BR>
<BR>
A megaton of TNT is 4.2e15 Joules<BR>
A kiloton of TNT is 4.2e12 Joules<BR>
A     ton of TNT is 4.2e9  Joules<BR>
A    kilo of TNT is 4.2e6  Joules<BR>
<BR>
So the crowbar hits with the energy of a bit over 76 kilos of TNT<BR>
concentrated on the tiny area (a couple of cm across?) that is its<BR>
width. <BR>
<BR>
You can imagine what a "telephone pole" that likely weighs a ton or so<BR>
will do...<BR>
<BR>
> How effective would PDF be against them?<BR>
<BR>
Depends on the PDF. <BR>
<BR>
Things like *current* PDF guns (the "R2-D2"-like Phalanx) wouldn't<BR>
stand a chance. <BR>
<BR>
Keep in mind that 8 km/sec is around Mach 25...<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2000 20:03:39 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Wars within the Imperium<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>> As an example of the attitude the Imperium probably has, look at the<BR>
>> attitude of the US to the 1982 Falklands War.<BR>
>><BR>
>> That was was between two American "client/ally" states (I dont think it's<BR>
>> pushing it too hard to compare the Imperium to the Pax Americana), and the<BR>
>> USA really didnt have a problem - just as long as they played nice, and<BR>
>> nobody asked them to pick a side.<BR>
><BR>
> I don't recall us supplying intelligence, ammunition, and fuel to *both*<BR>
> sides.<BR>
<BR>
So? You think the Imperium isn't "Neutral in X's favor" from time to time?<BR>
:-)<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2000 23:17:01 -0400<BR>
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net><BR>
Subject: RE: TL disparities in the OTU<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erickson said:<BR>
<BR>
>Don't forget that if civilzation fell *now*, we'd loose a *lot* of<BR>
>knowledge, simply because the paper most books are printed on won't<BR>
>*last* even a *hundred* years.<BR>
><BR>
>It'll get even *worse* if the stuff is on electronic media.<BR>
<BR>
While I think you're overstating the case with respect to paper media (I say<BR>
this owning quite a few old books that were stored in some pretty poor<BR>
conditions, one from the late 19th century and many from the first two<BR>
decades of the 20th), I think you're dead on with respect to electronic<BR>
media. This came over the wire on the "Dead Media" Mailing List a short<BR>
while ago:<BR>
<BR>
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/sci/tech/newsid_654000/654116.stm<BR>
<BR>
The summary, for those of you against links:<BR>
<BR>
The Archaeology Data Service at the University of York examined the computer<BR>
records of nearly 200 excavations of bronze age sites in Northeast London<BR>
during the 90s. The data was collected and compiled electronically, but was<BR>
never published. 5% of the disks had become corrupt, and many other files<BR>
were unusable due to the fact that the software used is long out of date. In<BR>
some cases, such as "three-inch Amstrad style disks", the hardware to read<BR>
the data was difficult to find.<BR>
<BR>
The last line from the article:<BR>
<BR>
"Kept on standalone computers or on disks in a shoe box, data from sites<BR>
will be of less use to tomorrow's archaeologists than if the site had not<BR>
been excavated in the first place."<BR>
<BR>
The next to last line sings the praises of the 'net itself as a "secure"<BR>
method of storage because "in theory, information on the internet will last<BR>
forever."<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2000 00:07:47 EDT<BR>
From: Damage169@cs.com<BR>
Subject: Ortillery (Orbital Artillery)<BR>
<BR>
Andy Akins writes:<BR>
<BR>
> Without degrading into a huge argument - _assuming_ I wanted to use these <BR>
in <BR>
>  GT, would anyone wanna guess at their stats? Are they a tactical (ie <BR>
> Buildings, <BR>
>  Tanks, etc) or Strategic (cities) weapon? How much space do they need on <BR>
the <BR>
> <BR>
>  firing ship? How accurate would they be? How much damage would they do? <BR>
How <BR>
>  effective would PDF be against them?<BR>
>  <BR>
<BR>
Okay, let's lay everything out:<BR>
<BR>
1. "...would anyone want to guess their stats?"<BR>
A. No, I'm not that much of a gearhead. I'll leave that to the good people of <BR>
the Famile Spofulum.<BR>
<BR>
2. "Are they a tactical (ie Buildings, Tanks, etc) or Strategic (cities) <BR>
weapon?<BR>
A. Depends on the size of the missile. If it were the proverbial "crowbar" <BR>
then its primary target would probably tactical (tanks and ships); if it were <BR>
the size of a small house it would be for strategic use only. For an <BR>
excellent example of strategic "rock-throwing" read Robert Heinlein's "The <BR>
Moon Is A Harsh Mistress." It's one of my favorites (I've worn out more than <BR>
a dozen copies). For an example of both types, read Niven's "Footfall." In <BR>
it, the elephantine antagonists/invaders use a small moon/asteroid to <BR>
eliminate most of the human population in the Indian Ocean basin and <BR>
Australia, and use the "crowbars" as air-support vs. tanks and APCs of the <BR>
Kansas National Guard. Another good series of books to read (not just about <BR>
ortillery, but about the difficulties of interstellar military operations) <BR>
are Robert Frezza's "A Small Colonial War," "A Fire In A Faraway Place," and <BR>
"Cain's Land."<BR>
<BR>
3. How much space do they need on the firing ship?<BR>
A. Very little, or a whole lot, depends on how big, and what type of system <BR>
used. The crowbars could be fitted with a communications receiver, targeting <BR>
system and small booster and just left in orbit until needed. Larger <BR>
projectiles might be housed in small satellites in batches of 10 or 12, <BR>
especially missiles, and used like a MIRV system. Unless you've got total <BR>
orbital "air"-superiority, once you use a box-launcher it's going to be a BIG <BR>
target, so you might as well use all of the payload immediately before you <BR>
lose them.<BR>
<BR>
4. How accurate would they be?<BR>
A. Depends on the targeting system, etc. I'll leave that to the gearheads.<BR>
<BR>
4. How much damage would they do?<BR>
A. Lots. I mean LOTS. The crater in Arizona was created by a house-sized <BR>
chunk of random rock and it's about 1/2 to 3/4 of a mile across (IIRC). A <BR>
specifically created missile, constructed for maximum destruction, could be <BR>
both smaller and more effective than this. A crowbar (about 4-6 feet long and <BR>
3-4 inches wide) need be only made out of really high grade steel and it <BR>
could defeat any armor on any mobile vehicle for the foreseeable future. If <BR>
it were made out of superdense or somesuch, a telephone pole sized crowbar <BR>
might actually have a chance of at least disrupting a meson site, especially <BR>
if it were launched by a linear accelerator and didn't have to rely on <BR>
integral reentry boosters. It would certainly be large enough to destroy <BR>
surface cities as thoroughly as a nuclear bomb. The main advantage is that it <BR>
wouldn't be nuclear, i.e., no fallout, no radiation. It would have one hell <BR>
of a thermal flash though, as that is what a lot of the destructive force of <BR>
the crowbars is: really, REALLY big sparks.<BR>
<BR>
5. How effective would PDF be against them?<BR>
A. Unless it got them right after they were activated, not much at all. If <BR>
the PDF system had to wait until it got within, say, ten miles or so, it <BR>
would have no real effect at all if it were a crowbar or rock, but it might <BR>
be able to detonate a missile's warhead. It would be real iffy to do it, due <BR>
to the speed of the reentering projectile, but iffy is better than not trying <BR>
at all.<BR>
<BR>
Well, that's my take on the subject. Next!<BR>
<BR>
Doug G.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2269<BR>
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Traveller-digest      Saturday, April 8 2000      Volume 1999 : Number 2270<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Psionic detection (was Re: Famile Spofulam Hi-Sensitivity Scout)<BR>
Re: The Ludowick Gambit <longish><BR>
Re: The Ludowick Gambit <longish><BR>
GT Imperial Navy on the SJG wish list?<BR>
Re: Ortillery (Orbital Artillery)<BR>
Re Ship Combat Games<BR>
re Rugby<BR>
Re MT-TNE interconversion of weapons.<BR>
Re: Psionic detection (was Re: Famile Spofulam Hi-Sensitivity Scout)<BR>
RE: Farmers and output<BR>
Re: Re Rugby (OT) during Gencon<BR>
Re: re Rugby<BR>
Re: Astronomy in the 57th Century<BR>
Re: TL disparities in the OTU<BR>
GT-Q: Starport Construction Questions<BR>
Idle Traveller Musings<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 08 Apr 2000 06:59:39 +0200<BR>
From: Ingo Heinscher <Hiroshi.Estigarribia@gmx.de><BR>
Subject: Re: Psionic detection (was Re: Famile Spofulam Hi-Sensitivity Scout)<BR>
<BR>
At 21:22 07.04.00 -0400, Steven E. Ehrbar wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Sure, but what speed do psionics propagate?<BR>
><BR>
>A GURPS-rules psionicist with Telerecive-linked telepathic power 70 with the<BR>
>limitation "requires one hour of preparation to use" and Telerecieve skill<BR>
>of IQ+13 instead.  Total character cost of 135 character points (before any<BR>
>unusual backgrounds, etc.), and he has a 3,671 *parsec* range...<BR>
><BR>
>So are Zhodani psionicists doing their own Longbow equivalent, but by<BR>
>reading minds instead of using telescopes?<BR>
<BR>
For MTU, I always assumed that psionics work at the speed of light. But<BR>
certainly, the Zhos will have some kind of Longbow/Longbow II. IMHO not a<BR>
psionic one, though.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
"This was not meant to be an aggresssion against the Siru Zirka. But we had<BR>
to organize our affairs a bit more efficiently. To be honest, we have had<BR>
to do this for almost 300 years by now."<BR>
unknown Terran politician, -2398 Imp<BR>
;-) ingo heinscher <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 08 Apr 2000 07:05:13 +0200<BR>
From: Ingo Heinscher <Hiroshi.Estigarribia@gmx.de><BR>
Subject: Re: The Ludowick Gambit <longish><BR>
<BR>
At 22:02 07.04.00 -0500, Black ICE wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>This is one of the most twisted ideas I've seen on the TML in nearly two<BR>
>years.  I _like_ it!<BR>
><BR>
>In fact, I like it so much, I designed a ship optimized for this mission<BR>
>(T4/FF&S2).  (I based it on the AuricTech F21-2 Light Transport.)  While<BR>
>I haven't transcribed the description into text yet, the highlights of<BR>
>the _Vaya Con Dios_ class are:<BR>
><BR>
>1.  Low cost.  Assuming a 10% discount for bulk purchases, each one<BR>
>costs only MCr 17.905.<BR>
><BR>
>2.  Long legs.  In addition to the J2 drive, this 100 dton ship carries<BR>
>an extra 50 dtons of fuel (that's five extra parsecs range).  The ship<BR>
>also carries a fuel purification plant and scoops.<BR>
><BR>
>3.  Long-term habitability.  The _Vaya Con Dios_ class has two large<BR>
>staterooms for its optimal crew of two, as well as an emergency low<BR>
>berth.  There is sufficient food storage (Normal quality, processed for<BR>
>storage) for two sophonts to survive for _two years_.  Of course, food<BR>
>storage volumes in FF&S2 include an extra week of Emergency rations for<BR>
>each two weeks of Normal rations....<BR>
><BR>
>Interested lunat ^h^h^h^h^h parties can contact me for an RTF file of<BR>
>the ship.<BR>
<BR>
This opens potential for a TU with an "misjump xboat network" or M-boat<BR>
network if you will. At least the Archdukes and the Emperor will be linked<BR>
by such...<BR>
<BR>
Hm. This wouldn't change the OTU too much, I'd say, but OTOH, you possibly<BR>
can't keep this network a secret. So many ships showing on at various<BR>
locations, probably a large IISS subdivision with a high mortality rate and<BR>
therefore (probably) a certain esprit de corps among its members... <BR>
<BR>
So it must be known to the public IMO.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
"This was not meant to be an aggresssion against the Siru Zirka. But we had<BR>
to organize our affairs a bit more efficiently. To be honest, we have had<BR>
to do this for almost 300 years by now."<BR>
unknown Terran politician, -2398 Imp<BR>
;-) ingo heinscher <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 08 Apr 2000 06:57:22 +0200<BR>
From: Ingo Heinscher <Hiroshi.Estigarribia@gmx.de><BR>
Subject: Re: The Ludowick Gambit <longish><BR>
<BR>
At 22:08 07.04.00 EDT, Ludowick@aol.com wrote:<BR>
[snip]<BR>
What can you do?  Here's a plan.<BR>
[snip]<BR>
<BR>
>6. Now for the stats.  Assuming you use a deliberate +5 DM (to avoid any <BR>
>   explosions):<BR>
><BR>
>    c. 42% misjump<BR>
>    c. 7% misjump in the right direction<BR>
>    c. 1% take 1 week to misjump in the right direction<BR>
>    average distance jumped by the 1% above: 12.25 parsecs<BR>
>    c. 0.03% will misjump 36 parsecs in 1 week, in the right direction<BR>
><BR>
>Other permutations are left to the individual ref/emperor.  You may allow <BR>
>automatic misjumps, more than doubling the above figures, for example.<BR>
>And a two week stint in jumpspace can still overtake a jump-6 peril, if you<BR>
>roll a high enough misjump distance.<BR>
<BR>
[snip}<BR>
<BR>
>In conclusion:  I think we can do this.  We have the technology.  We have <BR>
>the will.  We can prepare for almost any disaster:<BR>
><BR>
>Zhodani facing Empress Wave: Noble Lobotomy Time (we'll miss the Droyne...)<BR>
><BR>
>Primordials advancing on Consulate: Noble Lobotomy Time (poor Droyne...)<BR>
><BR>
>Dulinor fleeing to Illelish: Busted!  No Rebellion, no Black War, No Virus!<BR>
<BR>
It is an intriguing idea indeed. Though I think for the OTU, we can assume<BR>
that it's just as with the L-Hyd-tanks: Nobody has realized this yet.<BR>
<BR>
And, BTW, it is fair to assume that we as players have more statistical<BR>
data on misjumps than people in the OTU have. <BR>
<BR>
OTOH the Imperium certainly researches on multi-dozen-parsec misjumps...hm.<BR>
<BR>
I like the GT approach to this, which is simply explaining what *may*<BR>
happen, and leaving any decision what actually happens up to the individual<BR>
GM.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
"This was not meant to be an aggresssion against the Siru Zirka. But we had<BR>
to organize our affairs a bit more efficiently. To be honest, we have had<BR>
to do this for almost 300 years by now."<BR>
unknown Terran politician, -2398 Imp<BR>
;-) ingo heinscher <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 08 Apr 2000 07:13:49 +0200<BR>
From: Ingo Heinscher <Hiroshi.Estigarribia@gmx.de><BR>
Subject: GT Imperial Navy on the SJG wish list?<BR>
<BR>
Hi!<BR>
<BR>
This week I saw that GT Imperial Navy is on the SJG wishlist again. I read<BR>
on this list that the project was on the hold, and in combination with the<BR>
above, I ask myself:<BR>
Is GT:IN to be written again or is this just a leftover from earlier days?<BR>
<BR>
Any info, anyone?<BR>
Thanks.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
"This was not meant to be an aggresssion against the Siru Zirka. But we had<BR>
to organize our affairs a bit more efficiently. To be honest, we have had<BR>
to do this for almost 300 years by now."<BR>
unknown Terran politician, -2398 Imp<BR>
;-) ingo heinscher <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2000 21:25:17 -0700<BR>
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Ortillery (Orbital Artillery)<BR>
<BR>
>From: Damage169@cs.com<BR>
>Subject: Ortillery (Orbital Artillery)<BR>
<BR>
... Another good series of books to read (not just about <BR>
>ortillery, but about the difficulties of interstellar military operations) <BR>
>are Robert Frezza's "A Small Colonial War," "A Fire In A Faraway Place," and <BR>
>"Cain's Land."<BR>
<BR>
  FWIW, that series pretty much out-does 2300 AD at its own game - travel<BR>
is FTL, but Earth to some colonies is a year or more by cold-sleep; kinda<BR>
Alien-ish in that respect. The transport in Traveller is sufficiently<BR>
faster to remove some of the constraints, but far from all of them.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2000 21:57:57 -0800<BR>
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re Ship Combat Games<BR>
<BR>
>I have an opportunity to obtain both of the TNE ship combat games and was<BR>
>wondering if they would be useful.  I am planning on running a GURPS:<BR>
>Traveller campaign where of course nasty people with big ships might decide<BR>
>to shoot at the party.<BR>
><BR>
>1.  Are the vessels, doctrines, etc. of the TNE systems still (semi)<BR>
>canonical and non-anachronistic in relation to the G:T setting?  Or were<BR>
>there major changes in technology and strategy between the G:T divergence<BR>
>point and TNE?<BR>
<BR>
Well, Brilliant Lances (BL) and Battle Rider (BR) are both built around<BR>
TNE's technology tree. Which lacks the reactionless thruster in TNE canon.<BR>
(It is in the FF&S as an optional rule.) Howver, the only thing adding<BR>
thrusters does to mechanics is REMOVE the fuel limits on thrust use, and<BR>
thus streamline play. The tactics do change with reactionless, but I don't<BR>
recall quite if GT is reactionless (and am too tired to check). BR is an<BR>
abstraction. BL also includes a limited FF&S1 subset... ships only. It<BR>
will, howver allow you to BL-rate andy FF&S1 or FF&S2 design for BL/TNE<BR>
ship combat.<BR>
<BR>
>2.  I have not fully studied the G:T Starship combat options and given the<BR>
>fact that many of my players would be interested in more "detail" and<BR>
>"boardgame" qualities in their space combat versus a more streamlined<BR>
>"role-playing" approach, which would be better the TNE or the G:T options, or<BR>
>would a third alternative be better?  I am not familiar with all the<BR>
>Traveller space combat systems, but I do have Full Thrust and am given to<BR>
>understand that some have ported it to Traveller with some success.<BR>
><BR>
There are several takes on FT as a ship combat system for traveller. BITS'<BR>
one is oriented to large scale fleets (capital ships I believe is their<BR>
target). (IMHO, that is not a failing, nor a feature. Merely a fact.) It is<BR>
not oriented to player-scale ships and combats. If you use a rather more<BR>
smallish scale (say 25Td per FT Mass), you can use the 9mass per squadron<BR>
to represent roughly 25Td fighters, which are about right for the largish<BR>
end of TNE fightercraft, but don't match the CT 10Td fighters. I posted a<BR>
more "Player-scale" of 10Td per mass; it met with no significant comment.<BR>
And I've no-one local to playtest it upon. (Peter Newman doesn't do<BR>
starship combat games, unfortunately.)<BR>
<BR>
Some have also ported Starfire over... but that's another whole mess.<BR>
(Starfire uses constant SPEED drives, not thrust drives of any kind.)<BR>
<BR>
William F. Hostman  |  "Smith & Wesson: THe original Point and Click<BR>
interface!"<BR>
Aramis 0602 C55A364-C S kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge-<BR>
533<BR>
aramis@gci.net http://home.gci.net/~aramis Vilani: uilamaanamti sirohbrankilin<BR>
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn- t4-- tt+ to- tg-- ru+ ge 3i+ c+ jt-() au+ st- ls<BR>
pi+() ta+ he+(-) kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge- pi+<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2000 22:19:24 -0800<BR>
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net><BR>
Subject: re Rugby<BR>
<BR>
>>Oh, and one other thing . . . remove all those wussies pads!<BR>
><BR>
>I used to plat (free safety and cornerback), and also had the pleasure of<BR>
>meeting Hall of Fame Raiders player Lyle Alzedo.  I was, at the time, 6'<BR>
>and close to 200 lbs.  His hand envolped mine up to the wrist.<BR>
><BR>
>I'll take the pads, thank you...<BR>
<BR>
Oh, one other tidbit, based upon watching both RU and Aussie Football on<BR>
the tele: Remove 90% of the reasons Can-Am Football players NEED pads, such<BR>
as leg hits, ramming headfirst with hard helmets, astroturf, and<BR>
throw-him-to-the-ground tackles.And the scrums start in (or nearly so)<BR>
contact, so no impact shock there, either. And both ARF and RU have restart<BR>
play without stoppage for most downs.<BR>
<BR>
William F. Hostman  |  "Smith & Wesson: THe original Point and Click<BR>
interface!"<BR>
Aramis 0602 C55A364-C S kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge-<BR>
533<BR>
aramis@gci.net http://home.gci.net/~aramis Vilani: uilamaanamti sirohbrankilin<BR>
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn- t4-- tt+ to- tg-- ru+ ge 3i+ c+ jt-() au+ st- ls<BR>
pi+() ta+ he+(-) kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge- pi+<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2000 22:21:40 -0800<BR>
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re MT-TNE interconversion of weapons.<BR>
<BR>
>5. Does anyone have additional info for converting FF&S2 weapons/gear<BR>
>   into MT/Striker stats?  I mostly know what to do, but am looking<BR>
>   for a few pointers.<BR>
><BR>
>Ludowick@aol.com<BR>
find the second ed 3g3, and apply the 3g3 damage and pen calcs.<BR>
<BR>
William F. Hostman  |  "Smith & Wesson: THe original Point and Click<BR>
interface!"<BR>
Aramis 0602 C55A364-C S kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge-<BR>
533<BR>
aramis@gci.net http://home.gci.net/~aramis Vilani: uilamaanamti sirohbrankilin<BR>
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn- t4-- tt+ to- tg-- ru+ ge 3i+ c+ jt-() au+ st- ls<BR>
pi+() ta+ he+(-) kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge- pi+<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2000 22:56:21 -0800<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Psionic detection (was Re: Famile Spofulam Hi-Sensitivity Scout)<BR>
<BR>
"Steven E. Ehrbar" <ehrbar@SoftHome.net> wrote<BR>
<BR>
> A GURPS-rules psionicist with Telerecive-linked telepathic power 70 with the<BR>
> limitation "requires one hour of preparation to use" and Telerecieve skill<BR>
> of IQ+13 instead.  Total character cost of 135 character points (before any<BR>
> unusual backgrounds, etc.), and he has a 3,671 *parsec* range...<BR>
> So are Zhodani psionicists doing their own Longbow equivalent, but by<BR>
> reading minds instead of using telescopes?<BR>
<BR>
Please stand by, a Tavrchedl therapist will be Teleporting<BR>
in momentarily to discuss this matter with you.<BR>
<BR>
I note also that the above design is pretty wimpy. If<BR>
we give the character above No Physical Body (-100),<BR>
ST n/a DX 8 (-15) IQ 10 HT 8 (-15) and 5 points in quirks and <BR>
start with a 100 point character we will have 235 points to<BR>
use. If we buy Clairvoyance 125 (250 points) with the limitation<BR>
Preparation Required: One Minute (-20%) we reduce cost to<BR>
200 points. We then use the remaining 35 points to buy<BR>
Clairvoyance at IQ+13 (Skill 23) and have 5 points left over<BR>
for other skills.<BR>
<BR>
The resultant charecter has (in GURPS Traveller where Clairvoyance<BR>
uses the Telepathy Range table) an effective range of<BR>
1.3 x 10^20 parsecs. His range of vision is half that or<BR>
6.5X 10^19 parsecs. Since this is millions of times the<BR>
current estimated size of the universe this 100 point charecter <BR>
will be able to see everything in the universe at once.<BR>
We could have built this charecter on 50 or 75 points instead.<BR>
<BR>
The proper way to deal with this problem is to limit all<BR>
Psionicists in GURPS Traveller to Power 17. A Traveller<BR>
stat of 15 (which was as high as Psionics could go) converts<BR>
to a GURPS stat of 17. Since Psionics is a stat it must be<BR>
limited to Power 17.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 14:33:13 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: Farmers and output<BR>
<BR>
On 5 Apr 00, at 17:32, Tommy Grav wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> On Wed, 5 Apr 2000, Ian Ferguson wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> >Tommy Grav writes:<BR>
> >>Just to throw some canon answers onto the bonfire<BR>
> ><BR>
> >	Aaaargh!  Not CANON!  :)<BR>
> <BR>
> Yes indeed, yes :-)<BR>
> <BR>
> >>According to World Tamers Handbook (TNE) a TL5 farmer<BR>
> >>is able to produce food for 12 people as a base. Bye <BR>
> >>using more resources this can be risen by a factor <BR>
> >>of 1.25 to 15. Assuming best case richness in land<BR>
> >>this is multiplied by 150 for a value of 2250 people.<BR>
> >>This again is adjusted for monthly factors.<BR>
> ><BR>
> >	Is one "farmer" one individual, or does a family of 5<BR>
> >	with a farm count as 1 "farmer."<BR>
> <BR>
> Form WTH (TNE) page 27:<BR>
> <BR>
> Each laborer is equal to one actual person in the colony's<BR>
> population. This individual person is not necessatily a member <BR>
> of the the workforce, however. Each laborer laborer represents <BR>
> roughly one quarter of a worker, representing the members of a<BR>
> society who are too young or too old to work, or are otherwise<BR>
> occupied in non-worker roles (including full-time parents, etc.).<BR>
> Thus the colony currently has 800 industrial laborers, this <BR>
> number includes the fa,ilies of the actual industrial workers,<BR>
> whos actual number is around 200.<BR>
> <BR>
> So a family of a farmer will be 4 laborers and will in the<BR>
> best case scenario above produce 9000 rations. <BR>
<BR>
I get 4 labourers producing a base of 12 x 4 = 48 rations, which can be <BR>
upped to 48 x 1.25 = 60 by over-capitalising. This can be doubled for <BR>
the best land, for a total of 120 rations per month. However production <BR>
is only over half the year, so the average output is 60 per month. A <BR>
planet or area on a planet can have no seasons, and be able to grow all <BR>
year, but its richness can not be higher than 1.8 if this is the case, <BR>
for a maximum output of 108 rations per month. BTW each rations is 1 <BR>
man-month at subsistence levels (though as output doesn't diresctly <BR>
improve if more food is eaten IMO it's rather better than that, just no-<BR>
frills). So the best case scenario is 12 x 1.25 x 1.8 = 27 rations per <BR>
month, less 1 for the farmer = 26.<BR>
<BR>
WTH tells us that each month's worth of basic rations weighs 0.1 tons <BR>
and has a volume of 0.1 m^3, so I figure based on the price of rice, <BR>
flour, etc here you might get Crimp50 per ration, if you're lucky. This <BR>
gives a gross income of Cr1300 per month out of which everything has to <BR>
be paid. BTW the farmer also needs 2 tons per month of materials <BR>
(petrol, fertilizer, etc) or his output drops to TL3 levels (max 13.5 <BR>
rations per month). These can be provided by the farm, but that costs <BR>
10 rations per ton, and thus leaves a surplus of 6 rations per month.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
An pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 08 Apr 2000 03:20:36 -0400<BR>
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Re Rugby (OT) during Gencon<BR>
<BR>
"Douglas E. Berry" wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> I'll take the pads, thank you...<BR>
<BR>
Well, in rugby, at least you can't be touched if you don't have the<BR>
ball.  At least not 'officially'.  ;-)<BR>
<BR>
bloo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 08 Apr 2000 03:29:01 -0400<BR>
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: re Rugby<BR>
<BR>
"William F. Hostman" wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Oh, one other tidbit, based upon watching both RU and Aussie Football on<BR>
> the tele: Remove 90% of the reasons Can-Am Football players NEED pads, such<BR>
> as leg hits, ramming headfirst with hard helmets, astroturf, and<BR>
> throw-him-to-the-ground tackles.And the scrums start in (or nearly so)<BR>
> contact, so no impact shock there, either. And both ARF and RU have restart<BR>
> play without stoppage for most downs.<BR>
<BR>
I think you mean Rugby League (with scrums started in contact).<BR>
In Union, those 'nearly in contact' start scrums, as you describe<BR>
them made some interesting marks on my body.  After a heavy<BR>
scrumming game, there are razor-thin lines of blood on my shoulder<BR>
above the bones, from the combined pressure of the other feller<BR>
and the 3 guys behing him (locks and 8-man) pushing into me, and<BR>
the same pushing me into him.  Its like the shoulder (AC joint) is<BR>
trying to break out of my skin.<BR>
<BR>
Kinda cool, as battle scars go, but don't hurt at all.  Like 90% of<BR>
all rugby injuries, its superficial.<BR>
<BR>
Ob. trav.:  I bet the Vilani would like rugby more than american<BR>
football.  Not sure where they'd be on baseball.<BR>
<BR>
bloo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2000 23:31:19 -0800<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Astronomy in the 57th Century<BR>
<BR>
shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) wrote<BR>
<BR>
> In mail you write:<BR>
> >> >> > We could take a subsidized merchant & fill its whole cargo<BR>
> >> >> > hold full of batteries. Then we run the whole observatory<BR>
> >> >> > (and the subbie itself) off of the batteries. When it runs dry<BR>
> >> >> > we switch to the next subbie.<BR>
<BR>
> >> >> Use fuel cells. Just ship out "tankers" loaded with LOX and LH2. The<BR>
> >> >> unneeded water can be shipped back.<BR>
<BR>
> >> > Fuel cells are a good idea but in Traveller batteries have <BR>
> >> > a higher energy density than fuel cells, especially considering <BR>
> >> > fuel needs, which is why I picked batteries.<BR>
<BR>
> >> But "energy density" isn't terribly relevant on a fixed installation. <BR>
<BR>
> > The batteries or fuel cell fuel have to be transported to<BR>
> > the installation on a ship. If it can hold more power than<BR>
> > you will not have to send a ship as often and that is<BR>
> > cheaper.<BR>
<BR>
> Except that with fuel cells *all* you transport is the fuel. The cells<BR>
> themselves will be built into the base, All so do is fill the LOX and<BR>
> LH2 tanks and empty the water tank. <BR>
<BR>
We are not using LOX and LH@ in our fuel cells. FF&S says that<BR>
Fuel cells use HG Hydro Distillates. <BR>
<BR>
> Compare that with swapping out *tons* of batteries.<BR>
<BR>
The tons of batteries are cargo. They can be shipped in <BR>
standard cargo containers. Canonical Traveller rules do not<BR>
state that unloading cargo is difficult. <BR>
<BR>
> Pumping liquids is<BR>
> going to be easier than any method of changing batteries.<BR>
<BR>
While logic indicates that it may indeed take more time and <BR>
effort to move cargo containers than to pump liquids there<BR>
are no canonical Traveller rules I am aware of stating<BR>
this. Therefore in Traveller this purportedly difficulty must<BR>
not exist.<BR>
<BR>
> >> > Therefore a 15 MW fuel cell and 1000 hours (42 days) fuel <BR>
> >> > at TL 14 will need 2,000 kl (143 displacement tons) of fuel.<BR>
> >> > The fuel cell itself will take up 10 kl. At TL 12 the<BR>
> >> > fuel cell needs 5,000 kl fuel & occupies 20 kl itself.<BR>
> >> > (A total volume of 359 tons)<BR>
> >> > Batteries to get 15 MW/hour for 1,000 hours will need a 3,750<BR>
> >> > MW battery. This battery will take up 1,500 kl (107 displacement<BR>
> >> > tons). At TL 12 it takes up 2,500 kl (179 tons).<BR>
> >> > Therefore, at least at TL 12-15, the batteries are a better <BR>
> >> > use of space albeit a more expensive one.<BR>
> <BR>
> The rules you quote above are *badly* broken. The amount of fuel<BR>
> required for a given power output is *not* going to change that<BR>
> dramaticly. While the conversion of the energy released by combining<BR>
> hydrogen and oxygen to electricity isn't 100% efficient, it's sure as<BR>
> hell better than *50*%!<BR>
<BR>
We are not talking about using hydrogen and electricity we are<BR>
talking about using HG Hydro Distillates (aviation gas or jet<BR>
fuel). See FF&S p. 63-64.<BR>
<BR>
> That means that the max possible change in amount of fuel required is<BR>
> only a factor of 2. And that's between TL *7*, and whatever TL these<BR>
> cells are.<BR>
> I'm also suspicious of the power output per ton of fuel for the fuel<BR>
> cells, but that's another matter.<BR>
<BR>
They may be wrong but until corrected or errataed they are all<BR>
we have to go on. If we can not discuss things from a common point <BR>
of view there is little reason to do so.<BR>
<BR>
> >> The problem is that batteries have to be *charged* (unless they are<BR>
> >> primary cells, in which case they have to be *replaced* when they run<BR>
> >> down). <BR>
<BR>
> > An empty fuel tank is of no more use than dead batteries.<BR>
<BR>
> > In the scenario we are discussing the batteries (or fuel cell<BR>
> > fuel) are brought in on a Subsidized Merchant. At TL 15 this<BR>
> > ship has a 200 ton cargo bay. If we fill it full of TL 14<BR>
> > batteries it can run our observatory for 1,869 hours (78 days).<BR>
> > If we fill it full of fuel cell fuel it can run our observatory<BR>
> > for only 1,399 hours (58 days). Therefore batteries are superior.<BR>
<BR>
> Except that since the bulkier part of the fuel is LH2, you can store<BR>
> *that* in the *fuel* tanks on the ship. <BR>
<BR>
No it is HG Hydrocarbon distillates. I do not want gasoline in <BR>
my Liquid H tanks.<BR>
<BR>
I also note that the transport vehicle we are discussing does<BR>
not have 200+ gallon fuel tanks. It has an empty 200 ton<BR>
cargo bay. I am using this cargo bay to carry either cargo <BR>
containers full of batteries (my scenario) or fuel of gas (your<BR>
fuel cell scenario). You seem to be talking about using a<BR>
specialized tanker type ship which is likely to be more<BR>
expensive.<BR>
<BR>
> How much fuel can your<BR>
> subsidized merchant carry, and how much of that does it need to make<BR>
> two J-1 jumps? <BR>
<BR>
Good point although I was ignoring it as a simplifying assumption.<BR>
The ship needs return fuel weather it is carrying gas or batteries.<BR>
We will need to install fuel tanks for an additional 40 tons <BR>
of fuel for the return Jump 1. This means our true cargo<BR>
capacity is 160 tons. We can haul enough batteries for 62 days <BR>
of operations on batteries or fuel cells for 46 days. The<BR>
more frequently we have to replenish the labs power source the<BR>
more we have to pay for chartering the subsidized merchant.<BR>
<BR>
> That "spare" capacity can be used to carry LH2. <BR>
<BR>
There is no spare capacity on the standard subsidized merchant.<BR>
<BR>
> > On the other hand our batteries will cost MCr 27 while our<BR>
> > fuel cell fuel will cost only MCr 0.675. This means that over<BR>
> > a period of 40 refills (6.35 years) you will spend MCr 27 on<BR>
> > the fuel and have nothing left over. Assuming I buy two 200<BR>
> > ton batteries (so I can recharge one out system while the<BR>
> > other is in use) my method is still cheaper over periods<BR>
> > of 12.7+ years. On the other hand I had to pay MCr 54 up front <BR>
> > and you did not. Assuming that interest on loans to buy<BR>
> > batteries is the same 150% of the amount borrowed over the life <BR>
> > of the loan that starship loans are I still save money. At the <BR>
> > end of 40 years you will have spent Mcr 170 on fuel (and MCr<BR>
> > 0.2 on your generator itself) and have nothing left. I will have <BR>
> > put MCr 10.8 down and paid MCr 108 on my loan for a total cost <BR>
> > of Mcr 118.8. I will still have 2 really big batteries. Batteries <BR>
> > are cheaper. <BR>
> <BR>
> Check out battery lifetimes for "deep cycle" use, which is what you are<BR>
> talking about.<BR>
<BR>
Traveller canon does not reflect this reality. Therefore the<BR>
only logical conclusion possible is that in the Traveller<BR>
Universe at Traveller Tl's this problem has been solved. I<BR>
fail to understand why you continue to ignore canon in favor<BR>
of our current TL 8 situation.<BR>
<BR>
> >> Given the enormous size of the telescopes, the extra space for the fuel<BR>
> >> cells hardly matters. And they are an actual power *source* rather than<BR>
> >> a power *storage* device.<BR>
> ><BR>
> > Its not the space at the telescope it is the space on the<BR>
> > ship that brings the fuel to the telescope that is the issue.<BR>
> <BR>
> >> With batteries, you have to run a reactor to recharge them. And this<BR>
> >> will take a fair amount of time, as the recharge rate is limited if you<BR>
> >> want the batteries to last more than a few charge/discharge cycles. <BR>
> ><BR>
> > You do not recharge the batteries on the spot you jump them out<BR>
> > and recharge them at the other end. Then you jump them back in.<BR>
> <BR>
> Which involves a *lot* of hard work. Much easier (and simpler) to just<BR>
> pump fuel.<BR>
<BR>
As I've already stated no Traveller rules set makes any 'cost<BR>
of handling' distinctions for cargo based on its physical status.<BR>
In GURPS Trav Far Trader terms both are instances of CIF<BR>
freight no unloading cost distinctions are made.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2000 23:41:48 -0800<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: TL disparities in the OTU<BR>
<BR>
Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net> wrote<BR>
<BR>
> >Don't forget that if civilzation fell *now*, we'd loose a *lot* of<BR>
> >knowledge, simply because the paper most books are printed on won't<BR>
> >*last* even a *hundred* years.<BR>
> >It'll get even *worse* if the stuff is on electronic media.<BR>
> <BR>
> While I think you're overstating the case with respect to paper media (I say<BR>
> this owning quite a few old books that were stored in some pretty poor<BR>
> conditions, one from the late 19th century and many from the first two<BR>
> decades of the 20th),<BR>
<BR>
Books from back then were printed on better paper than<BR>
books now are. I have several 19th century books that<BR>
have light foxing at the edges but are otherwise in<BR>
great shape. I have several less than 35 year old paperbacks<BR>
that I know were stored in better conditions that have<BR>
brown paper. Most post WW II books are printed on<BR>
horrible paper.<BR>
<BR>
> I think you're dead on with respect to electronic<BR>
> media. This came over the wire on the "Dead Media" Mailing List a short<BR>
> while ago:<BR>
<BR>
> The Archaeology Data Service at the University of York examined the computer<BR>
> records of nearly 200 excavations of bronze age sites in Northeast London<BR>
> during the 90s. The data was collected and compiled electronically, but was<BR>
> never published. 5% of the disks had become corrupt, and many other files<BR>
> were unusable due to the fact that the software used is long out of date. In<BR>
> some cases, such as "three-inch Amstrad style disks", the hardware to read<BR>
> the data was difficult to find.<BR>
> <BR>
> The last line from the article:<BR>
> <BR>
> "Kept on standalone computers or on disks in a shoe box, data from sites<BR>
> will be of less use to tomorrow's archaeologists than if the site had not<BR>
> been excavated in the first place."<BR>
<BR>
Who cares about tomorrow's archeologists? The point of excavating<BR>
sites is to find publishable data, er to protect the information<BR>
from being lost when someone builds a supermarket on top of the<BR>
site. Obviously if the site had anything important (defined as<BR>
potentially useful to the senior archeologists career) then it<BR>
would have been published. Therefore the lost data is obviously<BR>
unimportant anyway. :)<BR>
<BR>
> The next to last line sings the praises of the 'net itself as a "secure"<BR>
> method of storage because "in theory, information on the internet will last<BR>
> forever."<BR>
<BR>
"Danger Will Robinson! faulty logic approaching." What do these<BR>
people think that the web pages are but information stored on<BR>
computer hard drives?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2000 05:15:23 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
From: Dalton Spence <dalton.spence@hwcn.org><BR>
Subject: GT-Q: Starport Construction Questions<BR>
<BR>
I've just gone through the starport construction process in GT: Starports<BR>
using a spreadsheet to simplify the calculations, and I noticed a couple<BR>
of things that have me puzzled. Aside from the Employee Residence section<BR>
on page 25 and one paragraph on page 85 very little is said about starport<BR>
employees who live on on starport property.<BR>
<BR>
1.) Commuting to and from a highport daily seems like a very tedious<BR>
business, and not really practical from a logistical point of view. It<BR>
would be much better for at least part of the staff (support, engineering<BR>
and medical primarily) to rotate between orbital and ground duty on a<BR>
weekly or bi-weekly basis. These employees would likely have a permanent<BR>
residence on the planet's surface, and live in transient housing when<BR>
rotated to the highport. Depending on what fraction of highport employees<BR>
live temporarily and/or permanently on site, the number of employee<BR>
shuttles could be cut back drastically. What would be a realistic fraction<BR>
of rotating and long term residents for the various classes of highports?<BR>
Should rotating staff live in standard starship staterooms or something<BR>
more spacious? Would individual staffers be assigned the same or different<BR>
quarters each trip?<BR>
<BR>
2.) While the weapons CR in a starport is 5 (p.33), the general CR seems<BR>
to be somewhat lower (4 or even 3). I can't seem to find explicit mention<BR>
of it in the book itself, but if starport CR is lower than the planet's in<BR>
general, this could provide signficant motivation to live as well as work<BR>
there. Has anyone quantified this influence? Did I miss something?<BR>
<BR>
3.) When I included 100-ton employee shuttles (p.66) in the starport fleet<BR>
list on my spreadsheet, the cargo area absorbed enough cargo transfer<BR>
tonnage that I was able to eliminate all the dedicated cargo shuttles<BR>
(standard 100-ton shuttles with the seats stripped out) I had added to the<BR>
starport's fleet. Realistically, would standard commuter shuttles use<BR>
their cargo space for regular freight transfer? Should I use dedicated<BR>
personnel transfer shuttles with the cargo space filled with passenger<BR>
couchs in addition to my cargo shuttles instead?<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
              @==================================================@<BR>
              | Dalton S. Spence, B.Sc. <dalton.spence@hwcn.org> |<BR>
              | Home Page: http://www.hwcn.org/~ag775/home.html  |<BR>
              |      Family Motto: Virtute Acquiritur Honos      |<BR>
              |    "Trade is the lifeblood of the Imperium."     |<BR>
              |   Cleon I, First Emperor of the Third Imperium   |<BR>
              | Mr. Spock fled from Austin for the lovely icon.  |<BR>
              |                      FNORD!                      |<BR>
              @==================================================@<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2000 07:44:52 +1000<BR>
From: "Karen and Michael Hughes" <kmhughes@dynamite.com.au><BR>
Subject: Idle Traveller Musings<BR>
<BR>
I'm bored, so I'm just going to throw a few things out thar that are Ob Trav<BR>
<BR>
1) Has anyone GMed Norris? If so, how did they play him? As an M from James<BR>
Bond type figure? As a dynamic varied personality? Robotically and only for<BR>
plot purposes? Any quirks that I should throw in should I bring him up to<BR>
the plate?<BR>
<BR>
2) Has anyone crafted a campaign around a central character then have that<BR>
player unable to attend? What do you do - run him as an NPC, handing over<BR>
control when the player is available, junk the campaign etc.?<BR>
<BR>
3) I've started using Brownie Points - anyone succeeding at a task by 6 or<BR>
more (provided it is relatively hard) gets a BP - which can be used as a DM<BR>
on any future roll (once spent, gone) - a max of 3 BP being gained a session<BR>
(naturally I had a player with Medical-7 so they clocked this up pretty<BR>
rapidly). It's like Hero Points from James Bond (Victory Games). What do<BR>
people think? Can plot important NPC's have them too?<BR>
<BR>
4) I also had this idea for Fame (again much like JB), where whenever an NPC<BR>
(or indeed PC) would have a possibility of recognising someone (ie ex Marine<BR>
recognising another ex Marine), they make a Difficult Educ or Formidable<BR>
(MT) roll with the DMs being the person's fame score and the taskee's Educ<BR>
bonus.<BR>
<BR>
Fame is calculated thusly - 1 for each non enlisted rank O6+, 1 for an MCG<BR>
(or equivalent), 2 for a SEH (or equivalent), 1 for each Social Status point<BR>
B+, 1 for being Dishonourably Discharged and/or Jailed and 1 if escaped and<BR>
on the run.  If performed activities in campaign that would make them<BR>
famous, then add something for that as well.<BR>
<BR>
Well what does this mean? It depends on the situation - someone with a<BR>
notorious rep would probably have a more difficult time with officials and<BR>
the like, those with a heroic rep easier (let off misdemeanours etc.).I<BR>
guess this is like the GURPS rep thing. Still, any opinions?<BR>
<BR>
I guess that's it. Oh, and for those dudes who scoped out my Quick Character<BR>
generation, could you let me know what you think? I have already<BR>
incorporated someone's ideas so I am flexible (though not Karma<BR>
Suitrically).<BR>
<BR>
Michael (SEC: can go to hell)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2270<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2271</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
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Traveller-digest      Saturday, April 8 2000      Volume 1999 : Number 2271<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Tech Question: GT stats/effects for Orbital Kinetic weapon (Thor)<BR>
Re : Forine, part 1 (long)<BR>
Vilani and Terran Sports (was: Re: re Rugby)<BR>
Re: Idle Traveller Musings<BR>
Re: Astronomy in the 57th Century<BR>
Re: The Ludowick Gambit <longish><BR>
Re: Notes on building Heya<BR>
RE: Idle Traveller Musings<BR>
Re: G:T - Suitability of Brilliant Lances & Battle Riders<BR>
Re: RS<BR>
Re: Distances<BR>
Re: Psionic detection (was Re: Famile Spofulam Hi-Sensitivity Scout)<BR>
Re: Website<BR>
Adventure, I got an Adventure, Yee Ha etc<BR>
Re: Some Questions about FF&S2 (T4 edition)<BR>
Re: GT-Q: Starport Construction Questions<BR>
Lost Keith supplements - minor update.<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2000 10:46:12 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Tech Question: GT stats/effects for Orbital Kinetic weapon (Thor)<BR>
<BR>
At 0:08 -0400 8/4/00, shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) wrote:<BR>
> > How effective would PDF be against them?<BR>
><BR>
>Depends on the PDF.<BR>
<BR>
I reckon Adobe would have to revise the specification above 1.3 to <BR>
stand any chance against orbitally launched ordnance.<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 08 Apr 2000 20:20:16 +1000<BR>
From: robocon <robocon@ozemail.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re : Forine, part 1 (long)<BR>
<BR>
Interesting post.<BR>
Tim Reynolds wrote :-<BR>
> Located 38.8 AU from the systems young M9 V star, it has an orbital<BR>
> period of just over 1000 standard years with a rotation of 17 days.<BR>
> Forine=92s diameter of 5,600 km surrounds a near standard molten core<BR>
> of .94 standard.<BR>
<BR>
O.K. Forine is a terrestrial type world way past the snow line.<BR>
This world is more likely to be an iceball, since it's so far away from<BR>
its primary. Nitrogen, methane and oxygen are going to be the main<BR>
players in local _geology_, like Neptune's moon Triton.<BR>
<BR>
If pulled out of the inner system by a wandering planet or star, it's<BR>
likely to have anomalous dynamic parameters - a highly eccentric orbit,<BR>
retrograde rotation or heaps of axial tilt).<BR>
A liquid core implies Forine must be quite young (<3 billion years) for<BR>
it to still be molten, given its size.<BR>
<BR>
There are obvious consequences for local 'geology' and 'geography' -<BR>
e.g. internal heat and core fluidity is required for plate tectonics.<BR>
<BR>
> the only active volcano, located on<BR>
> the southern tip of the Northwesterly, Hellmund, spilling warming<BR>
molten<BR>
> rock into the world=92s largest body of water.<BR>
<BR>
Volcanism based on melting rocks (e.g. silicates) will be truly<BR>
spectacular, if not downright explosive at Forine surface temperatures.<BR>
<BR>
An interesting option would be that the world's inner heat creates a<BR>
situation similar to that postulated for Europa.<BR>
<BR>
Imagine an ocean of liquid water under a crust of nitrogen, oxygen,<BR>
methane and water ice. Gases dissolved in the water percolate towards<BR>
the surface and freeze out.<BR>
<BR>
Disturbances in the core can lead to geysering and vulcanism visible on<BR>
the surface (watch a pot full of water boiling and magnify to planetary<BR>
scale the bubbling and convection currents seen).<BR>
<BR>
So with this model, Forine has a small hot core with lots of overlying<BR>
ice.<BR>
<BR>
>From your description, Forine appears to have a thin crust of water and<BR>
<BR>
other ices overlying a predominantly rocky mass - which fits much<BR>
better with the 'pulled out of the inner system' theory of formation -<BR>
otherwise it would have accreted a heap of ice in its early life.<BR>
[Given the admittedly limited data base that planetary science currently<BR>
<BR>
runs on].<BR>
<BR>
> Besides Forine, the system possesses only a large gas giant known as<BR>
> Hippidos.  Surrounded by a series of near orbit planetoids, Hippidos<BR>
> experience deadly electric storms between it and its moons.<BR>
<BR>
Similar to the multi million ampere currents that pass between Jupiter<BR>
and Io, for example. The captured planetoids sound like they could<BR>
be interesting - high metal or even hydrogen/helium-3 content?<BR>
<BR>
Robert O'Connor<BR>
Medico, Gamer<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 08 Apr 2000 05:33:22 -0500<BR>
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: Vilani and Terran Sports (was: Re: re Rugby)<BR>
<BR>
Steve Daniels wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
<<snip>><BR>
> <BR>
> Ob. trav.:  I bet the Vilani would like rugby more than american<BR>
> football.  Not sure where they'd be on baseball.<BR>
<BR>
Why, they'd be against the designated hitter, like all right-thinking<BR>
folk. ;-)<BR>
<BR>
Actually, baseball _is_ conservative enough for the Vilani to enjoy,<BR>
IMHO.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 08 Apr 2000 05:45:37 -0500<BR>
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Idle Traveller Musings<BR>
<BR>
Karen and Michael Hughes wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
<<snip>><BR>
> <BR>
> 3) I've started using Brownie Points - anyone succeeding at a task by 6 or<BR>
> more (provided it is relatively hard) gets a BP - which can be used as a DM<BR>
> on any future roll (once spent, gone) - a max of 3 BP being gained a session<BR>
> (naturally I had a player with Medical-7 so they clocked this up pretty<BR>
> rapidly). It's like Hero Points from James Bond (Victory Games). What do<BR>
> people think? Can plot important NPC's have them too?<BR>
<BR>
Of _course_ important NPCs should have them, if PCs do.  That's how you<BR>
keep the PCs from taking the NPCs down too early.<BR>
> <BR>
> 4) I also had this idea for Fame (again much like JB), where whenever an NPC<BR>
> (or indeed PC) would have a possibility of recognising someone (ie ex Marine<BR>
> recognising another ex Marine), they make a Difficult Educ or Formidable<BR>
> (MT) roll with the DMs being the person's fame score and the taskee's Educ<BR>
> bonus.<BR>
> <BR>
> Fame is calculated thusly - 1 for each non enlisted rank O6+, 1 for an MCG<BR>
> (or equivalent), 2 for a SEH (or equivalent), 1 for each Social Status point<BR>
> B+, 1 for being Dishonourably Discharged and/or Jailed and 1 if escaped and<BR>
> on the run.  If performed activities in campaign that would make them<BR>
> famous, then add something for that as well.<BR>
<BR>
I would also give enlisted E9s a 1 (at least if the military IYTU<BR>
resembles the US military).  Sergeants Major and Master Chief Petty<BR>
Officers, especially those assigned to flag-rank commands, are at least<BR>
as well-known as colonels, IMHO.<BR>
<BR>
<<snip>><BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 08 Apr 2000 02:57:09 -0800<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Astronomy in the 57th Century<BR>
<BR>
"David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu> wrote<BR>
> Subject: Re:<BR>
> <BR>
> >  >From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu><BR>
> ><BR>
> >  >>IMTU the Zhodani have good astronomers, the Vargr<BR>
> >  >>are not really interested in astronomy (lack of patience,<BR>
> >  >>little opportunity for Charisma gain)<BR>
> >  ><BR>
> >  >Who says the Vargr don't have patience?  (Human propaganda! :-)<BR>
<BR>
"these groups tend to be unstable. To a Vargr loyalties are<BR>
temporary. In time a Vargr may move on to another group. Always<BR>
he is seeking to improve his own lot by moving on to a position<BR>
which enhances his own charisma and dominance. Vargr are easily <BR>
insulted, Vargr are in many ways inconsistent, even unstable" -<BR>
<BR>
CT Vargr Alien Module<BR>
<BR>
This indicates to me that Vargr are less likely to be willing<BR>
to stick around long enough to do good astronomical work. It<BR>
also indicates that they are much less likely to spend years<BR>
and vast sums of money building large telescopes in the first<BR>
place. If they do build a large scope it is likely to not<BR>
be well maintained when the group that built it shrinks or<BR>
is conquered. Nor are large flimsy telescopes safe in the<BR>
combat rich environment of Vargr space. Nor are neighboring<BR>
Vargr likely to respond well to the building of large<BR>
scopes which can be used to spy upon them.<BR>
<BR>
I also note that we need a hand wave to explain why all the good<BR>
astronomical events are not observed and published about by the <BR>
Vargr centuries before the data can reach the Imperium's coreward<BR>
boundary. Otherwise it is harder to have human astronomers who<BR>
can do much.<BR>
<BR>
> >  >I think they would have astronomy, but it would be more geared<BR>
> >  >toward what could make a splash in the popular media with less<BR>
> >  >emphasis on work that will never be appreciated except by a<BR>
> >  >few specialists.<BR>
> ><BR>
> >Who says astronomy has little room for charisma gain?  <BR>
<BR>
Vargr gain Charisma (according to the rules) through successful<BR>
use of initiative. Astronomy in the 57th century will be IMO<BR>
a fairly static science without much room for initiative and<BR>
thus for Charisma gain. (On the other hand it also has little<BR>
opportunity for Charisma loss and thus may be preferable to<BR>
Walter Mittyish Vargr.)<BR>
<BR>
> > Remember<BR>
> >that the Vargr typically like small groups and dominance in a<BR>
> >small group may be more important to an individual Vargr than<BR>
> >general, public recognition.  So being top dog (pun intended,<BR>
> >slur not) among an elite group of say 20 astronomers might give<BR>
> >that Vargr huge charisma in that context (especially at the<BR>
> >subsector astronomy conference).<BR>
> <BR>
> Not a bad point.  A Vargr who can't manage "mass market"<BR>
> leadership might set himself up a little academic empire....<BR>
<BR>
Yes he might but I think that significantly fewer Vargr then humans<BR>
will become astronomers in the first place.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 08 Apr 2000 03:11:21 -0800<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: The Ludowick Gambit <longish><BR>
<BR>
Ludowick@aol.com wrote<BR>
<BR>
You are evil, I like that in a person. I suggested this<BR>
same scenario to another Traveller fan years ago and he<BR>
gave me a look of great pain. <BR>
<BR>
> Assuming you've got a large interstellar Traveller state, faced with<BR>
> a rapidly approaching peril (c. jump-6 or even a bit faster), such as:<BR>
> What can you do?  <BR>
> 1. Get a bunch of small starships crewed by dependable sophs who don't<BR>
>    mind high mortality rates (i.e. "Scouts"). <BR>
> 2. Deliberately misjump these ships. <BR>
> 3. Now for the good bit.  About 1 in 6 of these ships will go in the<BR>
>    direction you want (ahead of the advancing/receding peril).  Another<BR>
>    2 in 6 will kind of go where you want (sort of, kinda, maybe, etc.).<BR>
> 4. With a bit of luck, you can send ships up to 36 parsecs in one week<BR>
>    The more ships you misjump, well, statistics are on your side. <BR>
> 5. Assuming standard stellar densities, you can routinely recover half of<BR>
>    your ships/crews, so this isn't necessarily a suicide mission. <BR>
<BR>
But the CT survival roll for Scouts was 7+ per year. The Book <BR>
6 Scout Commo Branch 'Special Mission' Survival roll is 6+<BR>
(the same as Naval crew on a Raid or Army/Marine crew in a <BR>
Battle). Therefor recovering about half the crews sounds about <BR>
right.<BR>
<BR>
> In conclusion:  I think we can do this.  We have the technology.  We have<BR>
> the will.  We can prepare for almost any disaster:<BR>
> Dulinor fleeing to Illelish: Busted!  No Rebellion, no Black War, No Virus!<BR>
<BR>
That's why Dulinor had to get the Illelish fleet (run by <BR>
his brother) on his side either the fleet destroyed all<BR>
these Scouts or Dulinor got to the Scout Base Commander<BR>
at Capitol/Core and made sure the message was never sent.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 08 Apr 2000 22:23:32 +1200<BR>
From: Idiot/Savant <idiot@flat.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Notes on building Heya<BR>
<BR>
On 6 Apr, 2000, Qstor@aol.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>What I have a hard time with is...When you have a TL 4 planet and a<BR>
>starport...Won't the TL 4 change very rapidly when the locals see what a<BR>
>nice invention an air raft is and that they don't have to ride around <BR>
>on animal powered carts anymore....I think the presence of a starport <BR>
>would alter the planets culture...The goods that could be imported <BR>
>would make life so much easier for the average member of society...<BR>
>I don't know if this has been covered before on the TML....Pardon me <BR>
>if it has....<BR>
<BR>
	Other people have already raised various economic arguments for why people<BR>
might not be able to afford high-tech imports, or why they might not be<BR>
able to take advantage of all that existing R&D to elevate their tech<BR>
level, but one thing that hasn't been considered is whether they would want<BR>
to.<BR>
<BR>
	The Imperium is not a monoculture, and not everyone in it believes in the<BR>
desirability of technological advancement. There is a strong Vilani<BR>
influence, and Vilani are highly conservative.  "What was good enough for<BR>
my great-to-the-n-th grandfather is good enough for me" is likely to have a<BR>
strong effect.  Other societies may wish to limit their technology to what<BR>
is "necessary" or "appropriate", rather than accepting everything Imperial<BR>
traders have to offer.  Then there's all those governments who may wish to<BR>
restrict what technology is in the hands of their citizens (whether it be<BR>
to maintain stability or prevent revolution).<BR>
<BR>
	How far does free trade go in the Third Imperium anyway?  There's already<BR>
canon that Governments can restrict the import of things like guns and<BR>
drugs - can this also be applied to air/rafts?  Or will the navy enforce<BR>
"free-trade" at meson-gun-point on governments who wish to restrict imports?<BR>
<BR>
	Personally I think that it only goes to "noninterference in interstellar<BR>
commerce".  Worlds can't support piracy, and can't interfere in any way<BR>
with traffic through their system.  This means no tarriffs on<BR>
through-traffic, for example.  But they can restrict imports to approved<BR>
technologies if they so wish.<BR>
<BR>
	Comments?  Flames?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
Idiot/Savant                    http://homepages.flat.net.nz/~mfn-0056<BR>
"Choose pissing off at the end of it all, denying you were ever a <BR>
member and being nothing more than an obscure quote to the fucked <BR>
up, prozac gulping pseudo-goths recruited to replace you."<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2000 00:38:23 +1200<BR>
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: Idle Traveller Musings<BR>
<BR>
> On Behalf Of Karen and Michael Hughes<BR>
<BR>
> 1) Has anyone GMed Norris? If so, how did they play him?<BR>
> As an M from James Bond type figure?<BR>
<BR>
No way ! He's far more blunt and down to earth than M.<BR>
<BR>
> As a dynamic varied personality?<BR>
<BR>
Not that either, I always saw him as a bit stolid,<BR>
salt of the earth type, but with a keen mind, like<BR>
the Cheif Engineer off "Earth 2", or "Lou Grant"<BR>
<BR>
Basically the sort of noble that can really pisss<BR>
off other nobles by cutting through all the crap,<BR>
and calling a spade a spade, when everyone expects<BR>
it to be called an excavation instrument<BR>
<BR>
Norris'd rather be out _doing_ something<BR>
than sipping wine with the upper crust, but he<BR>
can carry off regal when he has to.<BR>
<BR>
> Any quirks that I should throw in should I bring<BR>
him up to the plate?<BR>
<BR>
Hates ceremonies, will be annoyed by<BR>
sycophants and people who refuse to tell him what<BR>
he needs to know, and really pissed at incompetence,<BR>
especially in other nobles.<BR>
<BR>
Would rather lead from the front, but will<BR>
obey his bodyguard when the bodyguard threatens<BR>
to knock him out and carry him to safety.<BR>
<BR>
Prefers hardcopy for correspondence for some weird reason.<BR>
<BR>
> 2) Has anyone crafted a campaign around a central character then have that<BR>
> player unable to attend? What do you do - run him as an NPC, handing over<BR>
> control when the player is available, junk the campaign etc.?<BR>
<BR>
Run him as an NPC, but give the player the oppurtunity to make<BR>
suggestions on how they should be run if at all posible<BR>
<BR>
If possible to play something else, might do that instead.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> 3) I've started using Brownie Points - anyone succeeding at a task by 6 or<BR>
> more (provided it is relatively hard) gets a BP - which can be<BR>
> used as a DM on any future roll (once spent, gone) - a max of 3 BP being<BR>
> gained a session<BR>
> (naturally I had a player with Medical-7 so they clocked this up pretty<BR>
> rapidly). It's like Hero Points from James Bond (Victory Games). What do<BR>
> people think?<BR>
<BR>
I think they shouldn't be handed out for mere die rolls.<BR>
Hand them out for good ideas, good roleplaying, and good team work<BR>
instead.<BR>
<BR>
If you're worried about favouritism (or the possibility of<BR>
people suspecting favouritism)on your part, give the other<BR>
players a BP to award to any other player in the group whom<BR>
_they_ think did good. Take suggestions from the players<BR>
as to who should get one.<BR>
<BR>
> Can plot important NPC's have them too?<BR>
<BR>
Yeah, but assign them to the NPC based on their nature<BR>
prior to play.<BR>
<BR>
> 4) I also had this idea for Fame (again much<BR>
> like JB), where whenever an NPC (or indeed PC)<BR>
> would have a possibility of recognising someone<BR>
> (ie ex Marine recognising another ex Marine),<BR>
> they make a Difficult Educ or Formidable (MT) roll<BR>
> with the DMs being the person's fame score and the<BR>
> taskee's Educ bonus.<BR>
<BR>
Hmm, I have a feeling that Soc should have something to do with this too,<BR>
but I'm not sure what.<BR>
<BR>
Frankie<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2000 17:18:29 -0400<BR>
From: "Chauncey Smith" <csmith@ICDC.com><BR>
Subject: Re: G:T - Suitability of Brilliant Lances & Battle Riders<BR>
<BR>
Well all I can offer is my humble opinion on this matter. but the vessels<BR>
and doctrines are still canonical. The only change is that Grav plates are<BR>
added to G:T vessels. which will allow them to ignore the limits of reaction<BR>
mass.<BR>
<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
From: WriteFool@aol.com <WriteFool@aol.com><BR>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Date: Friday, April 07, 2000 12:57 PM<BR>
Subject: G:T - Suitability of Brilliant Lances & Battle Riders<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>I have an opportunity to obtain both of the TNE ship combat games and was<BR>
>wondering if they would be useful.  I am planning on running a GURPS:<BR>
>Traveller campaign where of course nasty people with big ships might decide<BR>
>to shoot at the party.<BR>
><BR>
>1.  Are the vessels, doctrines, etc. of the TNE systems still (semi)<BR>
>canonical and non-anachronistic in relation to the G:T setting?  Or were<BR>
>there major changes in technology and strategy between the G:T divergence<BR>
>point and TNE?<BR>
><BR>
>2.  I have not fully studied the G:T Starship combat options and given the<BR>
>fact that many of my players would be interested in more "detail" and<BR>
>"boardgame" qualities in their space combat versus a more streamlined<BR>
>"role-playing" approach, which would be better the TNE or the G:T options,<BR>
or<BR>
>would a third alternative be better?  I am not familiar with all the<BR>
>Traveller space combat systems, but I do have Full Thrust and am given to<BR>
>understand that some have ported it to Traveller with some success.<BR>
><BR>
>Thanks for your time and assistance,<BR>
>Michael Breen<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2000 17:45:25 -0400<BR>
From: "Chauncey Smith" <csmith@ICDC.com><BR>
Subject: Re: RS<BR>
<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Date: Friday, April 07, 2000 4:27 PM<BR>
Subject: Re: RS<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>At 13:08 -0400 7/4/00, "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
wrote:<BR>
>> >OK, I have to ask, how much is the value of his Traveller holdings? How<BR>
much<BR>
>> >does /he/ think it is worth?<BR>
>><BR>
>>When I spoke to him, the asking price for all rights and any remaining<BR>
>>stock (not much) was 150,000 USD.<BR>
><BR>
>Splort!<BR>
><BR>
>At say 10000 copies of a RPG book at $20 USD a book - you take home<BR>
>$200,000. Over a period. Then you take off printing, distribution,<BR>
>authors fees, artwork, overheads.... He's being unrealistic by a long<BR>
>way, especially for some supplements for a game that has been OOP for<BR>
>7 years +. Especially when 10k sales are good...<BR>
><BR>
>Dom IMO<BR>
><BR>
Just to add to this the fact that they are OOP and collector sales for over<BR>
20 USD per book and printing and author fees are paid. everything from the<BR>
10k books  is just gravy. It would seem to me that he would make his money<BR>
by seeing that this stuff still has value and reprinting them himself and<BR>
joining the club on the TML.<BR>
<BR>
With the GURPS release of traveller there is a lot of new blood in our<BR>
little click that would love to speak our language and take advantage of<BR>
something I've called before our " Gaming Technology". I can imagine the<BR>
impact of the World builders handbook in the hands of a bunch of GURPs<BR>
players. Even the 101 books. The racial books will pay off in spades auction<BR>
prices for them is over 40 bucks a piece. sell remain stock at 20 bucks each<BR>
and a smooth 200k  + you no longer have to pay to warehouse the books.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2000 10:20:50 EDT<BR>
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Distances<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 00-04-07 13:12:33 EDT, you write:<BR>
<BR>
<< >"The difference between an Englishman and an American is that an <BR>
Englishman<BR>
 >thinks a hundred miles is a long way, whereas an American thinks a hundred<BR>
 >years is a long time."<BR>
 <BR>
 We regularly get British tourists who inquire about driving to Disneyland<BR>
 "for the day."  Disneyland is 450 miles, and two mountain ranges, from San<BR>
 Francisco.  >><BR>
<BR>
At a convention I was entertaining some British tourists (our UK importer's <BR>
rep and a couple of his friends) and one of them mentioned how she was <BR>
astonished to find herself over 1,000 miles from an ocean. <BR>
<BR>
LKW<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2000 11:08:34 -0400<BR>
From: "Steven E. Ehrbar" <ehrbar@SoftHome.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Psionic detection (was Re: Famile Spofulam Hi-Sensitivity Scout)<BR>
<BR>
From: "Peter Newman" <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
> I note also that the above design is pretty wimpy.<BR>
<BR>
Intentionally so -- my way the character can shave 30 points off attributes,<BR>
take 25 points in disads, add five points in quirks, and buy the Engineer<BR>
template.  In short, make him a *useful* character as well as a guy who can<BR>
discover what Dulinor was thinking just before his death by jumping to the<BR>
right distance.<BR>
<BR>
> The proper way to deal with this problem is to limit all<BR>
> Psionicists in GURPS Traveller to Power 17. A Traveller<BR>
> stat of 15 (which was as high as Psionics could go) converts<BR>
> to a GURPS stat of 17. Since Psionics is a stat it must be<BR>
> limited to Power 17.<BR>
<BR>
Well, I'd have banned such an excessive character IMC anyway.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 08 Apr 2000 17:09:13 +0200<BR>
From: Volker Greimann <volker@greimann.de><BR>
Subject: Re: Website<BR>
<BR>
At 08:34 07.04.00, you wrote:<BR>
>In beta....<BR>
><BR>
>http://www.core.org.uk/<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
It might be just me, but it seems quite slow!<BR>
<BR>
- ---<BR>
Volker A. Greimann<BR>
greimann@geocities.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2000 13:29:12 +1000<BR>
From: "Karen and Michael Hughes" <kmhughes@dynamite.com.au><BR>
Subject: Adventure, I got an Adventure, Yee Ha etc<BR>
<BR>
I've written up an adventure for a current campaign, which I now have to<BR>
'junk' because it doesn't fit. So for all you adventure collectors out<BR>
there, would anyone want a look? I'm HTML incapable, otherwise I'd zip it to<BR>
a web site. So I guess if anyone wants to scope it out, give me an email.<BR>
<BR>
Here's the synopsis.<BR>
<BR>
INTERDICTION<BR>
<BR>
The Travellers' have been hired to transport a load of arms to an<BR>
interdicted asteroid settlement. But they discover much, much more. Instead<BR>
they are transporting a bomb with which to destroy the port, behind the plot<BR>
a corporation denying the settlement's ore and ships to a local refinery in<BR>
order to drive it out of business.<BR>
<BR>
There are no deck-plans (all that's needed is a merchant ship deck-plan),<BR>
and being all laid out purty it comes to 30 odd pages in length.<BR>
<BR>
I'd really like opinions (all healthy flaw pointing gratefully received).<BR>
<BR>
Michael<BR>
<BR>
PS It's written up like a DGP Mega Traveller adventure but uses a modified<BR>
task resolution system (which is readily reverse engineerable back to MT or<BR>
other Traveller versions).<BR>
<BR>
PPS There is the odd swear word and what have you for those sensitive types.<BR>
Nothing though you wouldn't see on a certain Congressional Hearing web site<BR>
featuring cigars.<BR>
<BR>
PPPS No, not tobacco industry related.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 08 Apr 2000 10:56:22 -0500<BR>
From: "D. Smart" <dsmart@imagin.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Some Questions about FF&S2 (T4 edition)<BR>
<BR>
Ludowick@aol.com posted<BR>
> <BR>
> Hikeeba!<BR>
> <BR>
> I've got my forepaws on a copy of FF&S2 for adding some "chrome"<BR>
> to my CT/MT hybrid TU.  I need to know the following:<BR>
<BR>
That makes two of us! Except I'm really just getting started<BR>
on the<BR>
starship weapons conversions.<BR>
 <BR>
> 1. FF&S2 appears to use a linear armor value system, different from<BR>
>    the one used in the T4 vehicle construction system.  Am I correct<BR>
>    in this?  Is the linear system used consistently throughout FF&S2?<BR>
<BR>
I'm not there yet.<BR>
 <BR>
> 2. Many weapon tables use formulae to determine a "short" range.  I am<BR>
>    assuming that this is the range band for the weapon in question where<BR>
>    the chance to hit will be a "routine" or "average" task, not the max-<BR>
>    imum weapon range.  Is this correct (the range seems too short other-<BR>
>    wise)?<BR>
<BR>
I believe your assumption is correct.<BR>
 <BR>
> 3. Many weapon evaluation rules use a formula to derive a "damage value".<BR>
>    Is this the number of damage dice a weapon does (it seems a bit high<BR>
>    for small arms), or is it closer to MT/Striker penetration.<BR>
<BR>
As I recall, the damage is the number of damage dice but no<BR>
character will<BR>
take more than 3D of damage regardless of the weapon's<BR>
rating. The<BR>
remaining damage is lost through "blowthrough". This rule,<BR>
btw, does not<BR>
apply to HE rounds. They do full damage to soft targets.<BR>
(eeewwwwwww)<BR>
 <BR>
> 4. The small arms & gauss guns use the damage value formula -- (effective<BR>
>    energy ^ 0.5) / 10.5.  I assume for these equations that the Eeff<BR>
>    term is Emuzzle value.  Is this correct?<BR>
<BR>
I'm clueless on this one.<BR>
 <BR>
> 5. Does anyone have additional info for converting FF&S2 weapons/gear<BR>
>    into MT/Striker stats?  I mostly know what to do, but am looking<BR>
>    for a few pointers.<BR>
<BR>
Unfortunately, I *don't* know what to do yet. I'd appreciate<BR>
any help<BR>
you (and everyone else) could give.<BR>
<BR>
David<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 08 Apr 2000 11:30:23 -0500<BR>
From: Stormhound <stormhnd@fidnet.com><BR>
Subject: Re: GT-Q: Starport Construction Questions<BR>
<BR>
Dalton Spence wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> 1.) Commuting to and from a highport daily seems like a very tedious<BR>
> business, and not really practical from a logistical point of view. It<BR>
> would be much better for at least part of the staff (support, engineering<BR>
> and medical primarily) to rotate between orbital and ground duty on a<BR>
> weekly or bi-weekly basis. These employees would likely have a permanent<BR>
> residence on the planet's surface, and live in transient housing when<BR>
> rotated to the highport. Depending on what fraction of highport employees<BR>
> live temporarily and/or permanently on site, the number of employee<BR>
> shuttles could be cut back drastically. What would be a realistic fraction<BR>
> of rotating and long term residents for the various classes of highports?<BR>
> Should rotating staff live in standard starship staterooms or something<BR>
> more spacious? Would individual staffers be assigned the same or different<BR>
> quarters each trip?<BR>
<BR>
    If you have the space to devote to rotating staffers, you have the space<BR>
to devote to permanent staff.  The highport quarters might not be all that big<BR>
on average, but some will have to be fairly decent-sized to accommodate<BR>
families.  How space is assigned (merit, need, etc.) is up to you.<BR>
    While some people could do okay with shared quarters, most people<BR>
couldn't.  Think about the things that make your home a home...as George<BR>
Carlin would say, your stuff.  Most people like to have their stuff with them,<BR>
and this trait grows stronger when family is involved.  For singles without<BR>
much stuff, or people who can deal with the "travelling salesman" life, it<BR>
might not be so bad.<BR>
    There's also the question of just how long the commute is.  People commute<BR>
two hours to NYC to work in some cases, just so that they can live somewhere<BR>
else.  According to the travel time calculator in Tom Bont's GTS, and using<BR>
the 100-ton shuttle's 3.2G rating, that would allow for a travel distance of<BR>
over 250,000 miles.  Given that the highport is unlikely to be more than<BR>
30,000 miles off-planet, the maximum travel time is under 42 minutes...a<BR>
*very* acceptable time to many American commuters.  At 10,000 miles, time<BR>
drops to 24 minutes.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
Stormhound<BR>
DNRC Ombudsman for Induhvidual Affairs, Holder of Past Knowledge<BR>
Come visit my web page at http://www.fidnet.com/~stormhnd<BR>
Or my new Amateur Radio web page at http://www.qsl.net/kc0ekv<BR>
Or my JN6 course design page at http://www.fidnet.com/~stormhnd/golfpage.htm<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 08 Apr 2000 10:36:14 -0700<BR>
From: "J. Paul Sanders" <timmon@primenet.com><BR>
Subject: Lost Keith supplements - minor update.<BR>
<BR>
Just wanted to a few things...<BR>
<BR>
Firstly - There are seven (7) sets remaining and I did a (very) minor<BR>
update to<BR>
the website this morning to reflect this fact. Due to the limited number of<BR>
sets remaining, please email me in advance of sending in your payment  to<BR>
reserve a copy (I'll hold one for you for a week-and-a-half). My email address<BR>
is: timmon@primenet.com <BR>
The url is:<BR>
<http://www.primenet.com/~timmon/supplements.html>www.primenet.com/~timmon/s<BR>
upplements.html<BR>
<BR>
Secondly - I want to thank everyone for all the public and private feedback.<BR>
There are to many for me to respond to individually, so I am doing so here. So<BR>
far, all the feedback has been positive, but if there are any criticisms,<BR>
suggestions, and/or typos to report in the Supplements - please feel free to<BR>
send them to me.<BR>
<BR>
Thirdly - Once the last set is sold, I will be taking the website down...so if<BR>
anyone wants to archive it for whatever reason, now would be the time to do<BR>
so.<BR>
<BR>
Cordially,<BR>
Paul Sanders<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2271<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2272</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
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Traveller-digest      Saturday, April 8 2000      Volume 1999 : Number 2272<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
RE: Gencon UK<BR>
Re: Idle Traveller Musings<BR>
Re: re Rugby<BR>
Re: Vilani and Terran Sports (was: Re: re Rugby)<BR>
Re: GT Imperial Navy on the SJG wish list?<BR>
Don's Spring Traveller Auction, First Posting!<BR>
RE: TL disparities in the OTU<BR>
Re: Astronomy in the 57th Century<BR>
Re: G:T - Suitability of Brilliant Lances & Battle Riders<BR>
Traveller Board Gaming Meet @ San Jose, 15 April<BR>
Re: GT-Q: Starport Construction Questions<BR>
Re: The Ludowick Gambit <longish><BR>
Re: TL disparities in the OTU<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 08 Apr 2000 09:15:01<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Gencon UK<BR>
<BR>
At 03:09 PM 4/8/2000 +1200, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>> On Behalf Of Douglas E. Berry<BR>
>> We regularly get British tourists who inquire about driving to Disneyland<BR>
>> "for the day."  Disneyland is 450 miles, and two mountain ranges, from San<BR>
>> Francisco.<BR>
><BR>
>Only 450 miles ?<BR>
>That's a day's drive isn't it ?<BR>
><BR>
>Hell, at an average of 80mph ( is there anyone who travels slower than that<BR>
>on long distance trips ?) it's, what, under six hours.<BR>
<BR>
80? *Average?*  Meet those fun-loving folks in the California Highway Patrol!<BR>
<BR>
The idea I got from the Brits was that they expected to be able to have<BR>
breakfast at their hotel on Fisherman's Wharf, jump in the rental, and<BR>
spend a nice day in the Halls of the Mouse King, and be back in SF for a<BR>
late dinner.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 08 Apr 2000 09:17:11<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Idle Traveller Musings<BR>
<BR>
At 07:44 AM 4/9/2000 +1000, you wrote:<BR>
>I'm bored, so I'm just going to throw a few things out thar that are Ob Trav<BR>
><BR>
>1) Has anyone GMed Norris? If so, how did they play him? As an M from James<BR>
>Bond type figure? As a dynamic varied personality? Robotically and only for<BR>
>plot purposes? Any quirks that I should throw in should I bring him up to<BR>
>the plate?<BR>
<BR>
Stalin without the murderous rage and paranoia.  Uncle Josef could be a<BR>
great guy, fun loving and smiling, but able to focus *completely* upon a<BR>
problem or task.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 08 Apr 2000 09:29:11<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: re Rugby<BR>
<BR>
At 03:29 AM 4/8/2000 -0400, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Ob. trav.:  I bet the Vilani would like rugby more than american<BR>
>football.  Not sure where they'd be on baseball.<BR>
<BR>
The Vilani would love baseball.  It's all tradition and lore.<BR>
<BR>
The Giants just opened their new playing field, Pac Bell Park (aka the<BR>
Phone Booth), and the biggest ovation of the night went to Bobby Thompson;<BR>
who hit a two run homerun in the ninth inning to win the NL Pennant for the<BR>
Giants.  The *New York* Giants.  In 1951.<BR>
<BR>
How hidebound is baseball?  The bar Kirsten and I frequent is filled with<BR>
Redsox fans, and they still argue about trading Babe Ruth seventy years ago!<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 08 Apr 2000 09:52:20<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Vilani and Terran Sports (was: Re: re Rugby)<BR>
<BR>
At 05:33 AM 4/8/2000 -0500, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>> Ob. trav.:  I bet the Vilani would like rugby more than american<BR>
>> football.  Not sure where they'd be on baseball.<BR>
><BR>
>Why, they'd be against the designated hitter, like all right-thinking<BR>
>folk. ;-)<BR>
<BR>
The entertainment value of watching The Big Unit batting is cause enough to<BR>
get rid of the DH.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 08 Apr 2000 12:11:49 -0400<BR>
From: Thom Jones-Low <tjoneslo@together.net><BR>
Subject: Re: GT Imperial Navy on the SJG wish list?<BR>
<BR>
> <BR>
> Date: Sat, 08 Apr 2000 07:13:49 +0200<BR>
> From: Ingo Heinscher <Hiroshi.Estigarribia@gmx.de><BR>
> Subject: GT Imperial Navy on the SJG wish list?<BR>
> <BR>
> Hi!<BR>
> <BR>
> This week I saw that GT Imperial Navy is on the SJG wishlist again. I read<BR>
> on this list that the project was on the hold, and in combination with the<BR>
> above, I ask myself:<BR>
> Is GT:IN to be written again or is this just a leftover from earlier days?<BR>
> <BR>
> Any info, anyone?<BR>
> Thanks.<BR>
> <BR>
	Loren stated in a Brubeck's Chat that who ever submits the manuscript<BR>
will be starting from scratch. You can read through the Chat log on JTAS<BR>
(if you are a subscriber) for more info. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
    Thomas Jones-Low<BR>
    tjoneslo@together.net<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2000 12:51:04 -0500 <BR>
From: Donald McKinney <dmckinne@amdocs.com><BR>
Subject: Don's Spring Traveller Auction, First Posting!<BR>
<BR>
Don's Spring Traveller Auction, First Posting!<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
NOTE: This will be the only posting to the Traveller Mailing List.<BR>
My apologies for the waste of bandwidth.<BR>
<BR>
Rules:<BR>
1. Replies to dmckinne@prairienet.org.<BR>
2. Winner selects and pays for shipping; minimum is priority mail.<BR>
3. Winner sends me payment, then I ship.  If personal check, it<BR>
 sits at my bank for 10 business days before shipping. I do accept<BR>
PayPal payments...<BR>
4. Current winning bid is listed first; in case of ties, the first<BR>
 bid received is listed first.<BR>
5. Buyout bids have burned me in the past; so if you want to do<BR>
 it, bid an outrageous price.<BR>
6. New bids in whole dollar amounts, please...<BR>
7. I'll use the "GOING", "GOINGx2", "GONE" method after bidding<BR>
 slows down. <BR>
8. I am god, but I don't like it.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
CLASSIC TRAVELLER BOXED SETS<BR>
<BR>
251 Traveller "starter" boxed set, 1983 edition, excellent condition<BR>
minimum bid $5<BR>
<BR>
301 Traveller boxed set, includes Books 1-3, 1981 edition<BR>
 boxed scuffed, fair condition, books inside excellent condition<BR>
minimum bid $5<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
CLASSIC TRAVELLER BOOKLETS<BR>
<BR>
304 Book 4 - Mercenary, 1978 edition, excellent condition<BR>
minimum bid $5<BR>
<BR>
308 Book 5 - High Guard, 1980 "2nd" edition, excellent condition<BR>
minimum bid $5<BR>
<BR>
315 Supplement 6 - 76 Patrons, 1980 edition, excellent condition<BR>
minimum bid $5<BR>
<BR>
323 Double Adv 4 - Marooned/Marooned Alone, 1981 edition<BR>
 excellent condition<BR>
minimum bid $5<BR>
<BR>
327 Double Adv 5 - The Chamax Plague/Horde, 1981 edition<BR>
 excellent condition<BR>
minimum bid $5<BR>
<BR>
332 Supplement 11 - Library Data (N-Z), 1982 edition,<BR>
 excellent condition<BR>
minimum bid $5<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
TRAVELLER: THE NEW ERA BOXED SETS<BR>
<BR>
0302 Traveller: The New Era Deluxe Edition<BR>
    includes 0300 Traveller: The New Era rulebook, 0304 Fire, Fusion and<BR>
Steel, 0307 Referee's Screen and 0302/E1 Upgrade Booklet, along with dice,<BR>
maps and charts all intact, box damaged on one side; excellent condition<BR>
minimum bid $15 <BR>
<BR>
0303 Brilliant Lances (starship combat game)<BR>
    mint condition, no shrinkwrap, unpunched<BR>
minimum bid $10<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
TRAVELLER: THE NEW ERA BOOKLETS<BR>
<BR>
0310 Reformation Coalition Equipment Guide<BR>
    excellent condition<BR>
minimum bid $5<BR>
<BR>
0311 World Tamer's Handbook<BR>
    excellent condition<BR>
minimum bid $5<BR>
<BR>
0315 Star Vikings<BR>
    excellent condition<BR>
minimum bid $5<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Send all replies to "dmckinne@prairienet.org".<BR>
Thanks!<BR>
- --<BR>
========================================================================<BR>
= Donald E. McKinney, ConfigMgt 3x Team Lead       dmckinne@amdocs.com =<BR>
= Amdocs Ltd., 2109 Fox Drive, Champaign, IL            (217) 351-8250 =<BR>
= Winter War 28 Convention Chairman, Champaign, IL, February 2-4, 2001 =<BR>
= winterwar@prairienet.org        http://www.prairienet.org/winterwar/ =<BR>
========================================================================<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2000 14:30:58 -0400<BR>
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net><BR>
Subject: RE: TL disparities in the OTU<BR>
<BR>
>Books from back then were printed on better paper than<BR>
>books now are. I have several 19th century books that<BR>
>have light foxing at the edges but are otherwise in<BR>
>great shape. I have several less than 35 year old paperbacks<BR>
>that I know were stored in better conditions that have<BR>
>brown paper. Most post WW II books are printed on<BR>
>horrible paper.<BR>
<BR>
Lots of paperbacks *are* printed on horrible paper, I won't deny that.<BR>
However, few of the ones I have from the late 40s and 50s are all in bad<BR>
condition. But yeah, it's all about paper quality, storage and use. Lots of<BR>
materials I have were stored poorly, but not used frequently. Climate has a<BR>
lot to do with it as well.<BR>
<BR>
>Who cares about tomorrow's archeologists? The point of excavating<BR>
>sites is to find publishable data, er to protect the information<BR>
>from being lost when someone builds a supermarket on top of the<BR>
>site. Obviously if the site had anything important (defined as<BR>
>potentially useful to the senior archeologists career) then it<BR>
>would have been published. Therefore the lost data is obviously<BR>
>unimportant anyway. :)<BR>
<BR>
Well, when you look at it *that* way. Then again, if a new find casts older<BR>
finds in a different light, then all bets are off. This is what happened<BR>
with respect to studies of Mesopotamian artifacts.<BR>
<BR>
>> The next to last line sings the praises of the 'net itself as a "secure"<BR>
>> method of storage because "in theory, information on the internet will<BR>
last<BR>
>> forever."<BR>
><BR>
>"Danger Will Robinson! faulty logic approaching." What do these<BR>
>people think that the web pages are but information stored on<BR>
>computer hard drives?<BR>
<BR>
Shhh! Don't talk like that. Don't you know that the internet is the solution<BR>
to all of your problems? :)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2000 11:35:33 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Astronomy in the 57th Century<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) wrote<BR>
><BR>
>> In mail you write:<BR>
>> >> >> > We could take a subsidized merchant & fill its whole cargo<BR>
>> >> >> > hold full of batteries. Then we run the whole observatory<BR>
>> >> >> > (and the subbie itself) off of the batteries. When it runs dry<BR>
>> >> >> > we switch to the next subbie.<BR>
><BR>
>> >> >> Use fuel cells. Just ship out "tankers" loaded with LOX and LH2. The<BR>
>> >> >> unneeded water can be shipped back.<BR>
><BR>
>> >> > Fuel cells are a good idea but in Traveller batteries have <BR>
>> >> > a higher energy density than fuel cells, especially considering <BR>
>> >> > fuel needs, which is why I picked batteries.<BR>
><BR>
>> >> But "energy density" isn't terribly relevant on a fixed installation. <BR>
><BR>
>> > The batteries or fuel cell fuel have to be transported to<BR>
>> > the installation on a ship. If it can hold more power than<BR>
>> > you will not have to send a ship as often and that is<BR>
>> > cheaper.<BR>
><BR>
>> Except that with fuel cells *all* you transport is the fuel. The cells<BR>
>> themselves will be built into the base, All so do is fill the LOX and<BR>
>> LH2 tanks and empty the water tank. <BR>
><BR>
> We are not using LOX and LH@ in our fuel cells. FF&S says that<BR>
> Fuel cells use HG Hydro Distillates. <BR>
<BR>
Fuel cells can use a lot of things. But Hydrogen/Oxygen is the most<BR>
common *real world* variety. "Fuel cells" are merely a specialized type<BR>
of *battery* that generate electricity by reacting oxygen with a "fuel".<BR>
<BR>
So again, FF&S blows it. LOX/LH2 makes a lot of sense in Traveller,<BR>
expecially for space installations. You need tankage and handling for<BR>
LH2 anyway, and in anything much larger than a ship's boat, LOX is the<BR>
best way to store oxygen. <BR>
<BR>
>> Compare that with swapping out *tons* of batteries.<BR>
><BR>
> The tons of batteries are cargo. They can be shipped in <BR>
> standard cargo containers. Canonical Traveller rules do not<BR>
> state that unloading cargo is difficult. <BR>
<BR>
You have to do more than "unload" them. You have to disconnect the old<BR>
set, move them someplace where they won't be in the way, move the new<BR>
set into place, connect them, then move the old set to the ship. <BR>
<BR>
BTW, you won't load them into cargo containers. They'd be modules as<BR>
big as cargo containers, possibly modules that are as big as will fit<BR>
thru the cargo holds. You *don't* use individual batteries for<BR>
something like this. You use modules that are as big as you can get<BR>
away with. It's less handling in the long run. <BR>
<BR>
>> Pumping liquids is<BR>
>> going to be easier than any method of changing batteries.<BR>
><BR>
> While logic indicates that it may indeed take more time and <BR>
> effort to move cargo containers than to pump liquids there<BR>
> are no canonical Traveller rules I am aware of stating<BR>
> this. Therefore in Traveller this purportedly difficulty must<BR>
> not exist.<BR>
<BR>
This is at least the third time you've used this sort of logic. So I'm<BR>
going to tell you this for the last time:<BR>
<BR>
Failure of the rules to mention something does *not* mean that it is<BR>
not the way things are. And moreover, when the rules and real world<BR>
data differ, the real world wins. <BR>
<BR>
If you can't accept this, then please quit wasting my time, as we have<BR>
no common ground for discussion.<BR>
<BR>
>> >> > Therefore a 15 MW fuel cell and 1000 hours (42 days) fuel <BR>
>> >> > at TL 14 will need 2,000 kl (143 displacement tons) of fuel.<BR>
>> >> > The fuel cell itself will take up 10 kl. At TL 12 the<BR>
>> >> > fuel cell needs 5,000 kl fuel & occupies 20 kl itself.<BR>
>> >> > (A total volume of 359 tons)<BR>
>> >> > Batteries to get 15 MW/hour for 1,000 hours will need a 3,750<BR>
>> >> > MW battery. This battery will take up 1,500 kl (107 displacement<BR>
>> >> > tons). At TL 12 it takes up 2,500 kl (179 tons).<BR>
>> >> > Therefore, at least at TL 12-15, the batteries are a better <BR>
>> >> > use of space albeit a more expensive one.<BR>
>> <BR>
>> The rules you quote above are *badly* broken. The amount of fuel<BR>
>> required for a given power output is *not* going to change that<BR>
>> dramaticly. While the conversion of the energy released by combining<BR>
>> hydrogen and oxygen to electricity isn't 100% efficient, it's sure as<BR>
>> hell better than *50*%!<BR>
><BR>
> We are not talking about using hydrogen and electricity we are<BR>
> talking about using HG Hydro Distillates (aviation gas or jet<BR>
> fuel). See FF&S p. 63-64.<BR>
<BR>
Too bad. Hydrogen/Oxygen fuel cells exist in the real world. And are<BR>
the most *common* kind.<BR>
<BR>
Also, you need to recalculate your figures for fuel cells if that's<BR>
what they say. Fuel cells require *oxygen* to produce the electricity.<BR>
On a planet, it gets it from the air. On the station, you'll have to<BR>
ship in the oxygen to go along with it. Which you haven't calculated.<BR>
And don't even *think* about trying to tell me that the rules don't say<BR>
anything about it. They don't say that internal combustion engines need<BR>
air either!<BR>
<BR>
So we've established that the rules are *completely* broken with<BR>
regards to fuel cells.<BR>
<BR>
>> That means that the max possible change in amount of fuel required is<BR>
>> only a factor of 2. And that's between TL *7*, and whatever TL these<BR>
>> cells are.<BR>
>> I'm also suspicious of the power output per ton of fuel for the fuel<BR>
>> cells, but that's another matter.<BR>
><BR>
> They may be wrong but until corrected or errataed they are all<BR>
> we have to go on. If we can not discuss things from a common point <BR>
> of view there is little reason to do so.<BR>
<BR>
We can look into *real world* figures. And I rather suspect that it'll<BR>
turn out that real world LOX/LH2 fuel cells are much better than the<BR>
ones listed in FF&S.<BR>
<BR>
>> >> The problem is that batteries have to be *charged* (unless they are<BR>
>> >> primary cells, in which case they have to be *replaced* when they run<BR>
>> >> down). <BR>
><BR>
>> > An empty fuel tank is of no more use than dead batteries.<BR>
><BR>
>> > In the scenario we are discussing the batteries (or fuel cell<BR>
>> > fuel) are brought in on a Subsidized Merchant. At TL 15 this<BR>
>> > ship has a 200 ton cargo bay. If we fill it full of TL 14<BR>
>> > batteries it can run our observatory for 1,869 hours (78 days).<BR>
>> > If we fill it full of fuel cell fuel it can run our observatory<BR>
>> > for only 1,399 hours (58 days). Therefore batteries are superior.<BR>
><BR>
>> Except that since the bulkier part of the fuel is LH2, you can store<BR>
>> *that* in the *fuel* tanks on the ship. <BR>
><BR>
> No it is HG Hydrocarbon distillates. I do not want gasoline in <BR>
> my Liquid H tanks.<BR>
<BR>
Again, *I* was presuming the more common LOX/LH2 fuel cell. <BR>
<BR>
> I also note that the transport vehicle we are discussing does<BR>
> not have 200+ gallon fuel tanks. It has an empty 200 ton<BR>
> cargo bay. I am using this cargo bay to carry either cargo <BR>
> containers full of batteries (my scenario) or fuel of gas (your<BR>
> fuel cell scenario). You seem to be talking about using a<BR>
> specialized tanker type ship which is likely to be more<BR>
> expensive.<BR>
<BR>
No, you can use "container tanks" for the LOX. But as I said, *most*<BR>
fuel cells currently use LH2 *not* av gas!<BR>
<BR>
And I beg to differ with you regarding tankage. That 200 ton merchants<BR>
had better have a lot of fuel tankage or it isn't getting anywhere.<BR>
<BR>
>> How much fuel can your<BR>
>> subsidized merchant carry, and how much of that does it need to make<BR>
>> two J-1 jumps? <BR>
><BR>
> Good point although I was ignoring it as a simplifying assumption.<BR>
> The ship needs return fuel weather it is carrying gas or batteries.<BR>
> We will need to install fuel tanks for an additional 40 tons <BR>
> of fuel for the return Jump 1. This means our true cargo<BR>
> capacity is 160 tons. We can haul enough batteries for 62 days <BR>
> of operations on batteries or fuel cells for 46 days. The<BR>
> more frequently we have to replenish the labs power source the<BR>
> more we have to pay for chartering the subsidized merchant.<BR>
><BR>
>> That "spare" capacity can be used to carry LH2. <BR>
><BR>
> There is no spare capacity on the standard subsidized merchant.<BR>
<BR>
Then that isn't the ship that will be used to supply the observatory.<BR>
They'll use something that can make 2 J-1s and still have fuel left.<BR>
<BR>
So you need to recheck your design.<BR>
<BR>
Also, given that they make regular supply runs, they *won't* carry<BR>
fuel/batteries beyond what's needed to make it to the next delivery.<BR>
The "safety margin" of batteries or fuel will be stored at the station.<BR>
<BR>
Thus, try figuring for 30 days worth of fuel or batteries.<BR>
<BR>
>> > On the other hand our batteries will cost MCr 27 while our<BR>
>> > fuel cell fuel will cost only MCr 0.675. This means that over<BR>
>> > a period of 40 refills (6.35 years) you will spend MCr 27 on<BR>
>> > the fuel and have nothing left over. Assuming I buy two 200<BR>
>> > ton batteries (so I can recharge one out system while the<BR>
>> > other is in use) my method is still cheaper over periods<BR>
>> > of 12.7+ years. On the other hand I had to pay MCr 54 up front <BR>
>> > and you did not. Assuming that interest on loans to buy<BR>
>> > batteries is the same 150% of the amount borrowed over the life <BR>
>> > of the loan that starship loans are I still save money. At the <BR>
>> > end of 40 years you will have spent Mcr 170 on fuel (and MCr<BR>
>> > 0.2 on your generator itself) and have nothing left. I will have <BR>
>> > put MCr 10.8 down and paid MCr 108 on my loan for a total cost <BR>
>> > of Mcr 118.8. I will still have 2 really big batteries. Batteries <BR>
>> > are cheaper. <BR>
>> <BR>
>> Check out battery lifetimes for "deep cycle" use, which is what you are<BR>
>> talking about.<BR>
><BR>
> Traveller canon does not reflect this reality. Therefore the<BR>
> only logical conclusion possible is that in the Traveller<BR>
> Universe at Traveller Tl's this problem has been solved. I<BR>
> fail to understand why you continue to ignore canon in favor<BR>
> of our current TL 8 situation.<BR>
<BR>
This is the *fourth* time you've made this mistake. Canon is what the<BR>
books *say*. You *cannot* infer canon from what is *not* said.<BR>
<BR>
>> >> Given the enormous size of the telescopes, the extra space for the fuel<BR>
>> >> cells hardly matters. And they are an actual power *source* rather than<BR>
>> >> a power *storage* device.<BR>
>> ><BR>
>> > Its not the space at the telescope it is the space on the<BR>
>> > ship that brings the fuel to the telescope that is the issue.<BR>
>> <BR>
>> >> With batteries, you have to run a reactor to recharge them. And this<BR>
>> >> will take a fair amount of time, as the recharge rate is limited if you<BR>
>> >> want the batteries to last more than a few charge/discharge cycles. <BR>
>> ><BR>
>> > You do not recharge the batteries on the spot you jump them out<BR>
>> > and recharge them at the other end. Then you jump them back in.<BR>
>> <BR>
>> Which involves a *lot* of hard work. Much easier (and simpler) to just<BR>
>> pump fuel.<BR>
><BR>
> As I've already stated no Traveller rules set makes any 'cost<BR>
> of handling' distinctions for cargo based on its physical status.<BR>
> In GURPS Trav Far Trader terms both are instances of CIF<BR>
> freight no unloading cost distinctions are made.<BR>
<BR>
You seem to favor ignoring common sense when it comes to things the<BR>
rules are *silent* about. <BR>
<BR>
To put it another way...<BR>
<BR>
If the rules *say* "you can't do X", that's canon. If they do not say<BR>
anything about X, then there *is no* canon on the subject. <BR>
<BR>
Freight gets delivered at a port, which, presumably has the proper<BR>
handling gear and crew.<BR>
<BR>
Deliveries at the observatory are going to be handled by the crew of<BR>
the ship, and the (small) "support staff" of the observatory. <BR>
<BR>
Given that, which would *you* set things up for. Having to move around<BR>
tons of battery modules, and in the process power down part of the<BR>
observatory? Or connecting a few hoses and turning on the pumps (which<BR>
is doable even with containerized fuel)?<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 08 Apr 2000 13:02:01 -0700<BR>
From: Kristian Miller <travellerne@3rd-imperium.com><BR>
Subject: Re: G:T - Suitability of Brilliant Lances & Battle Riders<BR>
<BR>
Hi Michael,<BR>
<BR>
> 1.  Are the vessels, doctrines, etc. of the TNE systems still (semi)<BR>
> canonical and non-anachronistic in relation to the G:T setting?  Or were<BR>
> there major changes in technology and strategy between the G:T divergence<BR>
> point and TNE?<BR>
<BR>
Battle Rider is abstracted so that you won't notice any of the slight<BR>
differences between TNE and GT.  <BR>
<BR>
Brilliant Lances might need a little work as it is very detailed and you<BR>
might have to do a little conversion to the equivalent GT systems in the<BR>
following areas:<BR>
- -recording damage to individual systems (I think the credit value of<BR>
repairing the damage is comparable).<BR>
- -relative effectiveness of tech levels for sensors versus jamming<BR>
(probably applies to BR as well).<BR>
- -the reaction mass/fuel issue for manuever (not a big problem).<BR>
<BR>
> 2.  I have not fully studied the G:T Starship combat options and given the<BR>
> fact that many of my players would be interested in more "detail" and<BR>
> "boardgame" qualities in their space combat versus a more streamlined<BR>
<BR>
Brilliant Lances!  Super detailed, precise and very boardgamey.  Maybe<BR>
Glenn and Luther could pipe in as we have played BL the past several<BR>
months...<BR>
<BR>
That brings me to the next advertisement:<BR>
The San Jose area Traveller board gaming meet is April 15 at my place. <BR>
See the separate post or email me for details.<BR>
<BR>
Kristian<BR>
travellerne@3rd-imperium.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 08 Apr 2000 13:16:51 -0700<BR>
From: Kristian Miller <travellerne@3rd-imperium.com><BR>
Subject: Traveller Board Gaming Meet @ San Jose, 15 April<BR>
<BR>
Just a reminder:<BR>
<BR>
Featured Game:  Battle Rider (with some miniatures), Traveller RPG<BR>
Place:  Kristian's in San Jose, CA (near 101 & I-680)<BR>
Date:  15 April, 11:00 - ??<BR>
Alternate/Significant Other/After Dinner Games:  Roborally and ???<BR>
Information:  email Kristian:  travellerne@3rd-imperium.com<BR>
<BR>
Next month we start Striker miniatures!<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2000 12:32:20 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: GT-Q: Starport Construction Questions<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> I've just gone through the starport construction process in GT: Starports<BR>
> using a spreadsheet to simplify the calculations, and I noticed a couple<BR>
> of things that have me puzzled. Aside from the Employee Residence section<BR>
> on page 25 and one paragraph on page 85 very little is said about starport<BR>
> employees who live on on starport property.<BR>
><BR>
> 1.) Commuting to and from a highport daily seems like a very tedious<BR>
> business, and not really practical from a logistical point of view. It<BR>
> would be much better for at least part of the staff (support, engineering<BR>
> and medical primarily) to rotate between orbital and ground duty on a<BR>
> weekly or bi-weekly basis. These employees would likely have a permanent<BR>
> residence on the planet's surface, and live in transient housing when<BR>
> rotated to the highport. Depending on what fraction of highport employees<BR>
> live temporarily and/or permanently on site, the number of employee<BR>
> shuttles could be cut back drastically. What would be a realistic fraction<BR>
> of rotating and long term residents for the various classes of highports?<BR>
> Should rotating staff live in standard starship staterooms or something<BR>
> more spacious? Would individual staffers be assigned the same or different<BR>
> quarters each trip?<BR>
<BR>
Your groundhog upbringing is showing. <BR>
<BR>
Why shouldn't staff (and their families) live *permanently* at the<BR>
highport? Stop thinking of it as an airport, and think of it as a<BR>
*seaport*. That is, a *city* in orbit. <BR>
<BR>
> 3.) When I included 100-ton employee shuttles (p.66) in the starport fleet<BR>
> list on my spreadsheet, the cargo area absorbed enough cargo transfer<BR>
> tonnage that I was able to eliminate all the dedicated cargo shuttles<BR>
> (standard 100-ton shuttles with the seats stripped out) I had added to the<BR>
> starport's fleet. Realistically, would standard commuter shuttles use<BR>
> their cargo space for regular freight transfer? Should I use dedicated<BR>
> personnel transfer shuttles with the cargo space filled with passenger<BR>
> couchs in addition to my cargo shuttles instead?<BR>
<BR>
I'd keep dedicated cargo shuttles. At least *some*. For one thing,<BR>
cargo and passengers often are destined for quite different areas. For<BR>
another, there are a lot of cargos that you'd really rather *not* have<BR>
on passenger carrying craft.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2000 12:27:57 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: The Ludowick Gambit <longish><BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> At 22:02 07.04.00 -0500, Black ICE wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>>This is one of the most twisted ideas I've seen on the TML in nearly two<BR>
>>years.  I _like_ it!<BR>
>><BR>
>>In fact, I like it so much, I designed a ship optimized for this mission<BR>
>>(T4/FF&S2).  (I based it on the AuricTech F21-2 Light Transport.)  While<BR>
>>I haven't transcribed the description into text yet, the highlights of<BR>
>>the _Vaya Con Dios_ class are:<BR>
>><BR>
>>1.  Low cost.  Assuming a 10% discount for bulk purchases, each one<BR>
>>costs only MCr 17.905.<BR>
>><BR>
>>2.  Long legs.  In addition to the J2 drive, this 100 dton ship carries<BR>
>>an extra 50 dtons of fuel (that's five extra parsecs range).  The ship<BR>
>>also carries a fuel purification plant and scoops.<BR>
>><BR>
>>3.  Long-term habitability.  The _Vaya Con Dios_ class has two large<BR>
>>staterooms for its optimal crew of two, as well as an emergency low<BR>
>>berth.  There is sufficient food storage (Normal quality, processed for<BR>
>>storage) for two sophonts to survive for _two years_.  Of course, food<BR>
>>storage volumes in FF&S2 include an extra week of Emergency rations for<BR>
>>each two weeks of Normal rations....<BR>
>><BR>
>>Interested lunat ^h^h^h^h^h parties can contact me for an RTF file of<BR>
>>the ship.<BR>
><BR>
> This opens potential for a TU with an "misjump xboat network" or M-boat<BR>
> network if you will. At least the Archdukes and the Emperor will be linked<BR>
> by such...<BR>
><BR>
> Hm. This wouldn't change the OTU too much, I'd say, but OTOH, you possibly<BR>
> can't keep this network a secret. So many ships showing on at various<BR>
> locations, probably a large IISS subdivision with a high mortality rate and<BR>
> therefore (probably) a certain esprit de corps among its members... <BR>
><BR>
> So it must be known to the public IMO.<BR>
<BR>
There's a *much* simpler explanation. It takes care of *all* variants<BR>
of this, and helps explain why it takes so long to increase max jump<BR>
distance. <BR>
<BR>
The rolls are for *accidental* misjumps. For some reason, *deliberate*<BR>
misjumps always result in the disappearance of the ship. They are<BR>
*presumed* destroyed, but no one really knows. There's even a theory<BR>
that says they wind up making *much* bigger misjumps (say 100 parsec<BR>
*minimum*).<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2000 12:09:25 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: TL disparities in the OTU<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net> wrote<BR>
><BR>
>> >Don't forget that if civilzation fell *now*, we'd loose a *lot* of<BR>
>> >knowledge, simply because the paper most books are printed on won't<BR>
>> >*last* even a *hundred* years.<BR>
>> >It'll get even *worse* if the stuff is on electronic media.<BR>
>> <BR>
>> While I think you're overstating the case with respect to paper media (I <BR>
>> say this owning quite a few old books that were stored in some pretty poor<BR>
>> conditions, one from the late 19th century and many from the first two<BR>
>> decades of the 20th),<BR>
><BR>
> Books from back then were printed on better paper than<BR>
> books now are. I have several 19th century books that<BR>
> have light foxing at the edges but are otherwise in<BR>
> great shape. I have several less than 35 year old paperbacks<BR>
> that I know were stored in better conditions that have<BR>
> brown paper. Most post WW II books are printed on<BR>
> horrible paper.<BR>
<BR>
Yep. Ask any librarian or archivist. <BR>
<BR>
>> I think you're dead on with respect to electronic<BR>
>> media. This came over the wire on the "Dead Media" Mailing List a short<BR>
>> while ago:<BR>
><BR>
>> The Archaeology Data Service at the University of York examined the computer<BR>
>> records of nearly 200 excavations of bronze age sites in Northeast London<BR>
>> during the 90s. The data was collected and compiled electronically, but was<BR>
>> never published. 5% of the disks had become corrupt, and many other files<BR>
>> were unusable due to the fact that the software used is long out of date. In<BR>
>> some cases, such as "three-inch Amstrad style disks", the hardware to read<BR>
>> the data was difficult to find.<BR>
>> <BR>
>> The last line from the article:<BR>
>> <BR>
>> "Kept on standalone computers or on disks in a shoe box, data from sites<BR>
>> will be of less use to tomorrow's archaeologists than if the site had not<BR>
>> been excavated in the first place."<BR>
><BR>
> Who cares about tomorrow's archeologists? The point of excavating<BR>
> sites is to find publishable data, er to protect the information<BR>
> from being lost when someone builds a supermarket on top of the<BR>
> site. Obviously if the site had anything important (defined as<BR>
> potentially useful to the senior archeologists career) then it<BR>
> would have been published. Therefore the lost data is obviously<BR>
> unimportant anyway. :)<BR>
<BR>
In spite of the smiley, I'm going to give a serious reply. <BR>
<BR>
Quite often, you get "publishable data" by going back over the records<BR>
of previous digs to see if they have the same "anomalous" items that<BR>
your theory is based on.<BR>
<BR>
>> The next to last line sings the praises of the 'net itself as a "secure"<BR>
>> method of storage because "in theory, information on the internet will last<BR>
>> forever."<BR>
><BR>
> "Danger Will Robinson! faulty logic approaching." What do these<BR>
> people think that the web pages are but information stored on<BR>
> computer hard drives?<BR>
<BR>
Well, the thing is *most* ISPs do backups. And they migrate data to new<BR>
hardware on a semi-regular basis.<BR>
<BR>
One of these days soon, I get to start converting data from 15-20 year<BR>
old cassette tapes and floppy disks (last time I checked, they were<BR>
actually still readable!) to Zip disks. Some of them will have to be<BR>
stored in disk or tape "image" format for *emulators* of the original<BR>
hardware (thankfully, the folks writing the emulators came up with a<BR>
common standard for the image files)<BR>
<BR>
I'm *not* looking forward to recovering data from a couple hundred 3.5"<BR>
PC floppies that were stored under a leak. The dampness wiped out the<BR>
glue that holds the media to the metal "hub". I'm hoping that a drop of<BR>
superglue in the right place will hold things together long enough to<BR>
read the data...<BR>
<BR>
Then, when I have time to sort thru stuff, many of the Zip disks will<BR>
get burned into CD-ROMs.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2272<BR>
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Traveller-digest      Saturday, April 8 2000      Volume 1999 : Number 2273<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Distances<BR>
Re: Leonard (was Astronomy in the 57th Century)<BR>
Re: Astronomy in the 57th Century<BR>
Re: Some Questions about FFS2<BR>
Re: L+ Megacorp (was RS)<BR>
RE: TL disparities in the OTU<BR>
Two new items on Downport.com<BR>
Re: Notes on Building Heya<BR>
Re: Duelling Penguins<BR>
Re: Idle Traveller Musings<BR>
Re: GT-Q: Starport Construction Questions<BR>
Re: Idle Traveller Musings<BR>
Re: Idle Traveller Musings<BR>
Re: GT Navy<BR>
Re Trade Limits<BR>
Re Long-term storage<BR>
Re: Adventure, I got an Adventure, Yee Ha etc<BR>
Re Fuel Cell Debate<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2000 12:46:08 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Distances<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> In a message dated 00-04-07 13:12:33 EDT, you write:<BR>
><BR>
> << >"The difference between an Englishman and an American is that an <BR>
> Englishman<BR>
>  >thinks a hundred miles is a long way, whereas an American thinks a hundred<BR>
>  >years is a long time."<BR>
>  <BR>
>  We regularly get British tourists who inquire about driving to Disneyland<BR>
>  "for the day."  Disneyland is 450 miles, and two mountain ranges, from San<BR>
>  Francisco.  >><BR>
><BR>
> At a convention I was entertaining some British tourists (our UK importer's <BR>
> rep and a couple of his friends) and one of them mentioned how she was <BR>
> astonished to find herself over 1,000 miles from an ocean. <BR>
<BR>
Depending on where in the US you were, you should have suggested that<BR>
she could always consider the Great Lakes (or Great Salt Lake) to be<BR>
oceans. I don't think there are many places you can be 1000 miles from<BR>
the oceans *and* from those...<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2000 08:25:03 +1000<BR>
From: "Katharine Whitchurch" <katts@globalfreeway.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re: Leonard (was Astronomy in the 57th Century)<BR>
<BR>
> From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
> Subject: Re: Astronomy in the 57th Century<BR>
> This is at least the third time you've used this sort of logic. So I'm<BR>
> going to tell you this for the last time:<BR>
><BR>
> Failure of the rules to mention something does *not* mean that it is<BR>
> not the way things are. And moreover, when the rules and real world<BR>
> data differ, the real world wins.<BR>
><BR>
> If you can't accept this, then please quit wasting my time, as we have<BR>
> no common ground for discussion.<BR>
<BR>
Leonard, I dont mind you being a well-informed arrogant sort.<BR>
<BR>
I dont even mind your excessive use of *s.<BR>
<BR>
But I do mind the fact that you wont either refer to or, even better,<BR>
correct the rules that define what is possible in Traveller.<BR>
<BR>
Fine, you think FFS screwed up with fuel cells. Propose a new table. Write<BR>
up how much TL7-15 Fuel Cells should mass, cost, require in fuel(s) and put<BR>
out in power. Do the same for TL1 - 7 life support. Allow the rest of us to<BR>
belt on it, build stuff with it, and argue about it.<BR>
<BR>
Dont just whine about it. Improve it.<BR>
<BR>
Ian Whitchurch<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 08 Apr 2000 14:38:09 -0800<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Astronomy in the 57th Century<BR>
<BR>
shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
<BR>
> In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> > The tons of batteries are cargo. They can be shipped in <BR>
> > standard cargo containers. Canonical Traveller rules do not<BR>
> > state that unloading cargo is difficult. <BR>
> <BR>
> You have to do more than "unload" them. You have to disconnect the old<BR>
> set, move them someplace where they won't be in the way, move the new<BR>
> set into place, connect them, then move the old set to the ship. <BR>
<BR>
> BTW, you won't load them into cargo containers. They'd be modules as<BR>
> big as cargo containers, possibly modules that are as big as will fit<BR>
> thru the cargo holds. You *don't* use individual batteries for<BR>
> something like this. You use modules that are as big as you can get<BR>
> away with. It's less handling in the long run.<BR>
<BR>
Exactly, I envision each 4 DT cargo container having a single<BR>
battery inside it. You could remove the battery if you really <BR>
had to but basically it fills the container. <BR>
<BR>
> >> Pumping liquids is<BR>
> >> going to be easier than any method of changing batteries.<BR>
> ><BR>
> > While logic indicates that it may indeed take more time and <BR>
> > effort to move cargo containers than to pump liquids there<BR>
> > are no canonical Traveller rules I am aware of stating<BR>
> > this. Therefore in Traveller this purportedly difficulty must<BR>
> > not exist.<BR>
> <BR>
> This is at least the third time you've used this sort of logic. So I'm<BR>
> going to tell you this for the last time:<BR>
> Failure of the rules to mention something does *not* mean that it is<BR>
> not the way things are. <BR>
<BR>
Of course it does. <BR>
<BR>
The rules do in fact mention this. If you look under the<BR>
'Starship Expenses' section of most any Traveller rules set<BR>
you will see the starship expenses they list. The cost of<BR>
transshipping cargo is not on this list. The absence of the<BR>
expense required to transship bulky cargo _is_ an official<BR>
canonical statement that such expenses do not exist. If they<BR>
did exist then they would be on the expense list and players<BR>
would have to worry about paying them.<BR>
<BR>
In the real world absence of evidence is not evidence of<BR>
absence but in the game world anything left out of the rules<BR>
must (until errataed otherwise) be assumed to have been deliberately<BR>
left out because the designer choose not to model that part<BR>
of reality in the game universe.<BR>
<BR>
The absence of rules for the cost and time requirements for <BR>
moving cargo from the ship to the destination is an official<BR>
declaration that for the purposes of the game they don't matter.<BR>
<BR>
> And moreover, when the rules and real world<BR>
> data differ, the real world wins. <BR>
<BR>
So do you have a three dimensional Traveller Universe<BR>
with no jump drives in it?<BR>
<BR>
The real world is three (or much more according to Physics<BR>
but that's a whole other issue) dimensional and as far as<BR>
we currently know (according to my understanding at least)<BR>
probably does not allow jump drives. Traveller is a game.<BR>
<BR>
IMTU the real world only wins when on matters that might<BR>
not change. My Traveller universe does not have type VI<BR>
stars in it because I accept astronomers explanation that<BR>
they do not exist. The real world does not contain any<BR>
TL 14 jump capable ships therefore we can not say that<BR>
the real world wins over the rules since we do not have<BR>
the needed real world data.<BR>
<BR>
> If you can't accept this, then please quit wasting my time, as we have<BR>
> no common ground for discussion.<BR>
<BR>
The Traveller rules sets are models of reality. Any expense<BR>
left out of rules is an expense PC's do not have to pay. It<BR>
would be illogical to make NPC's pay it. Therefore we not<BR>
only can but should ignore them in our discussions. If you <BR>
can't accept this, then please quit responding to my posts<BR>
in this manner as we have no common ground for discussion.<BR>
<BR>
I also note that I'm not making you do anything you are choosing <BR>
to read my posts and respond to them. If you are feel that I am<BR>
wasting your time then don't respond.<BR>
<BR>
> No, you can use "container tanks" for the LOX. But as I said, *most*<BR>
> fuel cells currently use LH2 *not* av gas!<BR>
<BR>
> And I beg to differ with you regarding tankage. That 200 ton merchants<BR>
> had better have a lot of fuel tankage or it isn't getting anywhere.<BR>
<BR>
A 400 ton merchant with a 200 ton cargo hold, the standard<BR>
subsidized merchant.<BR>
<BR>
> >> That "spare" capacity can be used to carry LH2. <BR>
<BR>
> > There is no spare capacity on the standard subsidized merchant.<BR>
<BR>
> Then that isn't the ship that will be used to supply the observatory.<BR>
> They'll use something that can make 2 J-1s and still have fuel left.<BR>
<BR>
Why would they use a specialized container ship that is unlikely <BR>
to have been manufactured in sufficient quantity to get a volume<BR>
discount for the class? The cost of a standard type M plus<BR>
the added cost of demountable fuel tanks for the return jump<BR>
is cheaper than using a ship custom designed for this function.<BR>
(Unless of course you get a military surplus tanker but<BR>
most of them are much too big for this role.) The observatory<BR>
has a budget, whatever they save by using a cheaper ship they<BR>
can spend elsewhere.<BR>
 <BR>
> So you need to recheck your design.<BR>
<BR>
Not my design but the standard design for one of the most common <BR>
ships in the Imperium.<BR>
<BR>
> >> Check out battery lifetimes for "deep cycle" use, which is what you are<BR>
> >> talking about.<BR>
> ><BR>
> > Traveller canon does not reflect this reality. Therefore the<BR>
> > only logical conclusion possible is that in the Traveller<BR>
> > Universe at Traveller Tl's this problem has been solved. I<BR>
> > fail to understand why you continue to ignore canon in favor<BR>
> > of our current TL 8 situation.<BR>
> <BR>
> This is the *fourth* time you've made this mistake. Canon is what the<BR>
> books *say*. You *cannot* infer canon from what is *not* said.<BR>
<BR>
The books do say that batteries do not wear out this fast. If<BR>
you look in the TNE rules under 'wear value' you will note that<BR>
they do not say that batteries gain wear value faster than <BR>
other starship components. If the batteries did wear out faster<BR>
than the rest of the ship it would have to be mentioned in<BR>
the wear value section. Since the rules for wear value are for<BR>
all components including batteries then we know that batteries do<BR>
not wear out faster than other components.<BR>
<BR>
> You seem to favor ignoring common sense when it comes to things the<BR>
> rules are *silent* about. <BR>
<BR>
The rules are not silent about these matters. The rules list<BR>
costs that players must pay and things players must do to<BR>
run a merchant ship. Anything that is not on that list they <BR>
don't have to pay.<BR>
<BR>
> To put it another way...<BR>
> If the rules *say* "you can't do X", that's canon. If they do not say<BR>
> anything about X, then there *is no* canon on the subject. <BR>
<BR>
If the rules do not say that player characters have to pay<BR>
for something then (in the canonical Traveller Universe) they<BR>
do not have to pay for it. In the real world everything costs<BR>
money. Therefore the absence of a charge for cargo transport<BR>
is the clearest possible canonical evidence of its irrelevance<BR>
in the Traveller universe.<BR>
<BR>
> Freight gets delivered at a port, which, presumably has the proper<BR>
> handling gear and crew.<BR>
> Deliveries at the observatory are going to be handled by the crew of<BR>
> the ship, and the (small) "support staff" of the observatory. <BR>
> Given that, which would *you* set things up for. Having to move around<BR>
> tons of battery modules, and in the process power down part of the<BR>
> observatory? <BR>
<BR>
Why on earth do you need to power down part of the observatory.<BR>
Simply build your observatory as an open frame structure in <BR>
the first place. Then build a cargo handling robot (big,<BR>
dumb, strong and cheap) to move the fresh 4 DT batteries <BR>
into the place of the discharged ones. Replace them one at<BR>
a time and use the power from the other batteries while you do so.<BR>
<BR>
> Or connecting a few hoses and turning on the pumps (which<BR>
> is doable even with containerized fuel)?<BR>
<BR>
I'd set it up whichever way was the cheapest and batteries are<BR>
cheaper. In a role playing game rules exist to model a<BR>
reality the reality that the writers of Traveller have<BR>
chosen to model is one in which these costs do not matter. If<BR>
you disagree take it up with them, not with me.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2000 08:36:20 +1000<BR>
From: "Katharine Whitchurch" <katts@globalfreeway.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re: Some Questions about FFS2<BR>
<BR>
> From: "D. Smart" <dsmart@imagin.net><BR>
> Subject: Re: Some Questions about FF&S2 (T4 edition)<BR>
><BR>
> Ludowick@aol.com posted<BR>
> ><BR>
> > Hikeeba!<BR>
> ><BR>
> > I've got my forepaws on a copy of FF&S2 for adding some "chrome"<BR>
> > to my CT/MT hybrid TU.  I need to know the following:<BR>
><BR>
> That makes two of us! Except I'm really just getting started<BR>
> on the<BR>
> starship weapons conversions.<BR>
><BR>
> > 1. FF&S2 appears to use a linear armor value system, different from<BR>
> >    the one used in the T4 vehicle construction system.  Am I correct<BR>
> >    in this?  Is the linear system used consistently throughout FF&S2?<BR>
><BR>
> I'm not there yet.<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
Pretty much. The problem is that the rules designed to use FFS2 never really<BR>
got written.<BR>
<BR>
> > 2. Many weapon tables use formulae to determine a "short" range.  I am<BR>
> >    assuming that this is the range band for the weapon in question where<BR>
> >    the chance to hit will be a "routine" or "average" task, not the max-<BR>
> >    imum weapon range.  Is this correct (the range seems too short other-<BR>
> >    wise)?<BR>
><BR>
> I believe your assumption is correct.<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
Yes, although I disagree with the ranges for some weapons.<BR>
<BR>
> > 3. Many weapon evaluation rules use a formula to derive a "damage<BR>
value".<BR>
> >    Is this the number of damage dice a weapon does (it seems a bit high<BR>
> >    for small arms), or is it closer to MT/Striker penetration.<BR>
><BR>
> As I recall, the damage is the number of damage dice but no<BR>
> character will<BR>
> take more than 3D of damage regardless of the weapon's<BR>
> rating. The<BR>
> remaining damage is lost through "blowthrough". This rule,<BR>
> btw, does not<BR>
> apply to HE rounds. They do full damage to soft targets.<BR>
> (eeewwwwwww)<BR>
<BR>
Note that really odd things happen when you build person-portable heavy<BR>
energy weapons.<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
> > 4. The small arms & gauss guns use the damage value formula --<BR>
(effective<BR>
> >    energy ^ 0.5) / 10.5.  I assume for these equations that the Eeff<BR>
> >    term is Emuzzle value.  Is this correct?<BR>
><BR>
> I'm clueless on this one.<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
Yeah. It's Emuzzle.<BR>
<BR>
> > 5. Does anyone have additional info for converting FF&S2 weapons/gear<BR>
> >    into MT/Striker stats?  I mostly know what to do, but am looking<BR>
> >    for a few pointers.<BR>
><BR>
> Unfortunately, I *don't* know what to do yet. I'd appreciate<BR>
> any help<BR>
> you (and everyone else) could give.<BR>
<BR>
OK, this is how I did it. You take the DV, and translate into cm of hard<BR>
steel penetration. You then look that up in Striker, and thats the weapons<BR>
DV.<BR>
<BR>
Short range is the weapon's short range. Long and Extreme ranges you fudge.<BR>
<BR>
You also need to fudge the heck out of the accumulator rules to allow<BR>
person-portable small energy weapons, and you need to extend the<BR>
point-defense rules to allow BD troopers to survive with all those HEAP<BR>
grenades flying at them (and to stop hi-tech tanks using CPR guns).<BR>
<BR>
I can re-send these draft rules to people on request.<BR>
<BR>
Ian Whitchurch<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 08 Apr 2000 15:51:28 -0700<BR>
From: "Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com><BR>
Subject: Re: L+ Megacorp (was RS)<BR>
<BR>
Via electronic medium on 4/5/00 3:05 PM, agarcia@US.RHODIA.COM issued forth:<BR>
<BR>
> This also probably has long been talked about, but here it goes anyway: has<BR>
> the list considered getting 50+ people together with each contributing $500<BR>
> to the effort and then approach RS with a serious offer?  Then this "L-corp"<BR>
> would turn around and "allow" MM to reprint them as part of current<BR>
> "reprints" run for a modest license fee. Sure we wouldn't make our grand<BR>
> back but we each would get an autographed copy of each (hardbound;) reprint!<BR>
> (Yes this is a serious question.)<BR>
<BR>
I was thinking the same thing when I inquired as to the value of said<BR>
properties. At six figures I think the best that might be attained is<BR>
subsidizing Far Future Enterprises, and it it might be a good idea to have<BR>
degrees of contribution, ie: $50, $100, $1,000, etc.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 08 Apr 2000 17:50:56 -0500<BR>
From: Richard Wilson <rtwilson@rollanet.org><BR>
Subject: RE: TL disparities in the OTU<BR>
<BR>
At 11:17 PM 4/7/00 -0400, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>The next to last line sings the praises of the 'net itself as a "secure"<BR>
>method of storage because "in theory, information on the internet will last<BR>
>forever."<BR>
<BR>
Don't you love how they just assume that no one will ever take down their <BR>
website? Or that no one's server will ever crash. Or that no one will ever <BR>
try and deliberately alter the data.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Richard Wilson<BR>
<BR>
rtwilson@rollanet.org<BR>
<BR>
========================================================================<BR>
Humanity is not something we should aspire to. It is something we should<BR>
strive to overcome.<BR>
========================================================================<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2000 19:24:44 -0400<BR>
From: "Sword-Worlder" <swordworlder@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Two new items on Downport.com<BR>
<BR>
08 April 2000  from News: http://www.downport.com/news/<BR>
<BR>
Today Downport.com has been fortunate to receive two new submissions.  One<BR>
is the new Editorial "Dynamic Range" by Luther Martin.  The second is a<BR>
detailing of the world L'oeil d'Dieu in the Aramis subsector.  This is part<BR>
of the TML Landgrab project.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^<BR>
Colin Michael, WebDev<BR>
www.downport.com<BR>
The Traveller Domain<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2000 08:17:05 +1000<BR>
From: "Katharine Whitchurch" <katts@globalfreeway.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re: Notes on Building Heya<BR>
<BR>
> From: Idiot/Savant <idiot@flat.net.nz><BR>
> Subject: Re: Notes on building Heya<BR>
<BR>
> Personally I think that it only goes to "noninterference in interstellar<BR>
> commerce".  Worlds can't support piracy, and can't interfere in any way<BR>
> with traffic through their system.  This means no tarriffs on<BR>
> through-traffic, for example.  But they can restrict imports to approved<BR>
> technologies if they so wish.<BR>
><BR>
> Comments?  Flames?<BR>
<BR>
The Imperium is a government by Men, not Laws, so the short answer is "it<BR>
depends".<BR>
<BR>
If you are some backwater with odd anti-technology ideas, then you probably<BR>
wouldnt get hassled, as long as you pay your taxes and provide volunteers<BR>
for the Imperial services.<BR>
<BR>
If you become important because of some newly-noticed exportable good, then<BR>
I'd say we're setting ourselves up for a repeat of the Opium War - either<BR>
you find something you are going to accept in exchange, or we go in hard<BR>
(although the first stage would probably be the IISS' Internal Mapping<BR>
Branch trying to replace your government with a more pro-Imperial one).<BR>
<BR>
Ian Whitchurch<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 08 Apr 2000 17:17:50 -0700<BR>
From: "Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Duelling Penguins<BR>
<BR>
Via electronic medium on 4/7/00 4:44 AM, dojones.whitestar@btinternet.com<BR>
issued forth:<BR>
<BR>
> (this is probably getting a bit silly...)<BR>
<BR>
Probably? Not that I am bothered, been following the thread with great<BR>
amusement.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 08 Apr 2000 19:18:46 -0400<BR>
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Idle Traveller Musings<BR>
<BR>
Karen and Michael Hughes wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> I'm bored, so I'm just going to throw a few things out thar that are Ob Trav<BR>
><BR>
> 1) Has anyone GMed Norris? If so, how did they play him? As an M from James<BR>
> Bond type figure? As a dynamic varied personality? Robotically and only for<BR>
> plot purposes? Any quirks that I should throw in should I bring him up to<BR>
> the plate?<BR>
<BR>
Look at that hair.  I picture him a bit like Teddy Roosevelt, but<BR>
maybe with a Scottish accent.<BR>
<BR>
bloo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 08 Apr 2000 19:19:15 -0500<BR>
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: Re: GT-Q: Starport Construction Questions<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> In mail you write:<BR>
> <BR>
<<snip>><BR>
> <BR>
> > 3.) When I included 100-ton employee shuttles (p.66) in the starport fleet<BR>
> > list on my spreadsheet, the cargo area absorbed enough cargo transfer<BR>
> > tonnage that I was able to eliminate all the dedicated cargo shuttles<BR>
> > (standard 100-ton shuttles with the seats stripped out) I had added to the<BR>
> > starport's fleet. Realistically, would standard commuter shuttles use<BR>
> > their cargo space for regular freight transfer? Should I use dedicated<BR>
> > personnel transfer shuttles with the cargo space filled with passenger<BR>
> > couchs in addition to my cargo shuttles instead?<BR>
> <BR>
> I'd keep dedicated cargo shuttles. At least *some*. For one thing,<BR>
> cargo and passengers often are destined for quite different areas. For<BR>
> another, there are a lot of cargos that you'd really rather *not* have<BR>
> on passenger carrying craft.<BR>
<BR>
Two points on this:<BR>
<BR>
1.  Concerning unpleasant cargoes:  One of my favorite references for<BR>
such is my copy of the 1993 Emergency Response Guidebook, from the US<BR>
Department of Transportation.  _Very_ useful.  It lists a couple<BR>
thousand hazardous materials, with instructions for initial response to<BR>
releases.<BR>
<BR>
2.  As Leonard noted, often cargo and passengers have different<BR>
destinations.  For this reason, I would recommend that your starport<BR>
fleet list include some smaller boats, including a couple of 40-dton<BR>
Pinnaces (for moving hi-pri cargoes or passengers quickly).  That way,<BR>
you don't have to tie up an expensive 100-dton shuttle on low-capacity<BR>
runs.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2000 20:45:38 -0400<BR>
From: "Sword-Worlder" <swordworlder@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Idle Traveller Musings<BR>
<BR>
> > 1) Has anyone GMed Norris? If so, how did they play him? As an M from<BR>
James<BR>
> > Bond type figure? As a dynamic varied personality? Robotically and only<BR>
for<BR>
> > plot purposes? Any quirks that I should throw in should I bring him up<BR>
to<BR>
> > the plate?<BR>
><BR>
> Look at that hair.  I picture him a bit like Teddy Roosevelt, but<BR>
> maybe with a Scottish accent.<BR>
<BR>
Like Tiddy?  Hey, that could work.  Bully!  hmm... I'll have to rummage<BR>
around and see if I can find some of those old editorial cartoons.  With<BR>
some creative scanning and bit alterations....<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 08 Apr 2000 19:54:47 -0500<BR>
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Idle Traveller Musings<BR>
<BR>
Sword-Worlder wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> > > 1) Has anyone GMed Norris? <BR>
<BR>
<<snip>><BR>
> ><BR>
> > Look at that hair.  I picture him a bit like Teddy Roosevelt, but<BR>
> > maybe with a Scottish accent.<BR>
> <BR>
> Like Tiddy?  Hey, that could work.  Bully!  hmm... I'll have to rummage<BR>
> around and see if I can find some of those old editorial cartoons.  With<BR>
> some creative scanning and bit alterations....<BR>
<BR>
You do realize that, somewhere down the road, we could then see a<BR>
Traveller equivalent of "Arsenic and Old Lace":<BR>
<BR>
<<gentle old lady's voice>><BR>
<BR>
"Norris, there's been another ship crew killed by Vargr corsairs...."<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2000 22:05:27 EDT<BR>
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: GT Navy<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 00-04-08 05:44:28 EDT, you write:<BR>
<BR>
<< Is GT:IN to be written again or is this just a leftover from earlier days? <BR>
 >><BR>
<BR>
We are looking for a completely new manuscript.<BR>
<BR>
LKW<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2000 18:01:48 -0800<BR>
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re Trade Limits<BR>
<BR>
>	How far does free trade go in the Third Imperium anyway?  There's<BR>
>already<BR>
>canon that Governments can restrict the import of things like guns and<BR>
>drugs - can this also be applied to air/rafts?  Or will the navy enforce<BR>
>"free-trade" at meson-gun-point on governments who wish to restrict imports?<BR>
><BR>
IMTU, it works something like this:<BR>
The imperial gov't may not restrict trade except where such trade is<BR>
fostering rebellion or treason against the imperium, hence the ban on<BR>
Psi-drugs. Imperial regulations say that imperial military and scout craft<BR>
may only be transferred to non-imperial-government hands when disarmed, but<BR>
that is not so much a trade issue as a policy and procedure issue. In fact,<BR>
it allows for local contractors to re-arm the vessels for the Subsector,<BR>
cluster, or system navies.<BR>
<BR>
Local governments may not restrict trade between two other systems, except<BR>
during properly declared wars, in which case only those parties to the war<BR>
may have their trade restricted by other parties in the war. They may<BR>
freely restrict their own internal trade, and any external trade<BR>
originating or terminating in their system. Any ship "flagged" to a world<BR>
which is party to a war are considered to be valid targets in any systems<BR>
which are party to the war.<BR>
<BR>
Declarations must be made at the lowest common noble's court. So, if they<BR>
both are part of a given Marquis' cluster government, then it would be the<BR>
Marquis' court; if the same subsector, the Subsector Duke's Court; if the<BR>
same sector, the Sector Duke's court. If part of the same domain, but<BR>
different sectors, then the Archduke's court. If not part of the same<BR>
domain, then the emperor's court. Failing this, then the announcement must<BR>
be made in both subsector's dukal courts, with ASAP notice sent to all<BR>
applicable sector dukes, and possibly also domain and imperial courts. And<BR>
the information must be fed to the TNS, too, who is obligated to promulgate<BR>
it.<BR>
<BR>
YMMV<BR>
<BR>
William F. Hostman  |  "Smith & Wesson: THe original Point and Click<BR>
interface!"<BR>
Aramis 0602 C55A364-C S kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge-<BR>
533<BR>
aramis@gci.net http://home.gci.net/~aramis Vilani: uilamaanamti sirohbrankilin<BR>
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn- t4-- tt+ to- tg-- ru+ ge 3i+ c+ jt-() au+ st- ls<BR>
pi+() ta+ he+(-) kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge- pi+<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2000 18:11:58 -0800<BR>
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re Long-term storage<BR>
<BR>
>>> The next to last line sings the praises of the 'net itself as a "secure"<BR>
>>> method of storage because "in theory, information on the internet will<BR>
>last<BR>
>>> forever."<BR>
>><BR>
>>"Danger Will Robinson! faulty logic approaching." What do these<BR>
>>people think that the web pages are but information stored on<BR>
>>computer hard drives?<BR>
><BR>
>Shhh! Don't talk like that. Don't you know that the internet is the solution<BR>
>to all of your problems? :)<BR>
<BR>
Remember, in the US, the government has said that all governmental archives<BR>
of computer information are to be archived as printouts. Short-term<BR>
archival storage is to be on Reel-to-reel magnetic tapes, in ascii, comma<BR>
or tab delimited for databases (no formulae, data only, BTW). And, for<BR>
really long term, you microfilm the printouts. So, technically, all those<BR>
nice government websites are SUPPOSED to be making either ASCII text files<BR>
on Tape, or paper printouts.<BR>
<BR>
Hopefully, the 3i will have a better solution. Like eproms, maybe, in<BR>
ascii? <GD&R)<BR>
<BR>
William F. Hostman  |  "Smith & Wesson: THe original Point and Click<BR>
interface!"<BR>
Aramis 0602 C55A364-C S kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge-<BR>
533<BR>
aramis@gci.net http://home.gci.net/~aramis Vilani: uilamaanamti sirohbrankilin<BR>
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn- t4-- tt+ to- tg-- ru+ ge 3i+ c+ jt-() au+ st- ls<BR>
pi+() ta+ he+(-) kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge- pi+<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 08 Apr 2000 19:21:05 -0700<BR>
From: "Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Adventure, I got an Adventure, Yee Ha etc<BR>
<BR>
Via electronic medium on 4/8/00 8:29 PM, kmhughes@dynamite.com.au issued<BR>
forth:<BR>
<BR>
> I'm HTML incapable, otherwise I'd zip it to<BR>
> a web site. So I guess if anyone wants to scope it out, give me an email.<BR>
<BR>
Well, html is really pretty simple, so if you are bothering to write such<BR>
intriguing sounding adventures, it might be good for you to pick up the<BR>
basics. It sounds very good and you might consider posting it to the list,<BR>
if not I would at least like a copy.<BR>
/////////////////////////<BR>
BZA's Traveller--> http://www.sierratel.com/aum/BZAT/<BR>
BZA's E-Mail--> xrp@sierratel.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2000 18:24:37 -0800<BR>
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re Fuel Cell Debate<BR>
<BR>
>Too bad. Hydrogen/Oxygen fuel cells exist in the real world. And are<BR>
>the most *common* kind.<BR>
<BR>
MT specifies H2/O2 as Fuel Cell fuel. And says to multiply fuel consumption<BR>
by 9, if not air-breathing. [MT Ref's Manual, p 56]<BR>
<BR>
>Also, you need to recalculate your figures for fuel cells if that's<BR>
>what they say. Fuel cells require *oxygen* to produce the electricity.<BR>
>On a planet, it gets it from the air. On the station, you'll have to<BR>
>ship in the oxygen to go along with it. Which you haven't calculated.<BR>
>And don't even *think* about trying to tell me that the rules don't say<BR>
>anything about it. They don't say that internal combustion engines need<BR>
>air either!<BR>
><BR>
>So we've established that the rules are *completely* broken with<BR>
>regards to fuel cells.<BR>
<BR>
Only in FF&S. Fuel cells are one of the areas where FF&S didn't crib MT's<BR>
tables. Perhaps it should have. (MT Fuel Cells, at TL<12, burn .4L/hour at<BR>
.1 KL of fuel cell, producing .9MW, for Cr2000 and .165 tons; TL 13-14,<BR>
they produce 1.35MW and mass .12375 Tons; TL 15 produces 2.7MW at mass<BR>
0.0825 Tm; at TL 15, they produce 3.15MW and mass 0.066 Tm (Yes, only<BR>
66kg!).<BR>
<BR>
William F. Hostman  |  "Smith & Wesson: THe original Point and Click<BR>
interface!"<BR>
Aramis 0602 C55A364-C S kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge-<BR>
533<BR>
aramis@gci.net http://home.gci.net/~aramis Vilani: uilamaanamti sirohbrankilin<BR>
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn- t4-- tt+ to- tg-- ru+ ge 3i+ c+ jt-() au+ st- ls<BR>
pi+() ta+ he+(-) kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge- pi+<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2273<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2274</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
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Traveller-digest       Sunday, April 9 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2274<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
RE: TL disparities in the OTU<BR>
re: Striker miniatures<BR>
Re: TL disparities in the OTU<BR>
Re: Adventure, I got an Adventure, Yee Ha etc<BR>
Fame, I wouldn't mind living for a long time<BR>
Re: Fame, I wouldn't mind living for a long time<BR>
RE: TL disparities in the OTU<BR>
Smart weapons <BR>
Re: Fuel Cell Debate<BR>
notes on Forine<BR>
Re: GT Navy<BR>
Re: The Ludowick Gambit <longish><BR>
RE: Smart weapons<BR>
RE: The Ludowick Gambit <longish><BR>
Re: Idle Traveller Musings<BR>
JTAS discussion areas<BR>
Re: Astronomy in the 57th Century<BR>
Fuel cells<BR>
Re Duelling Penguins<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2000 14:32:45 +1200<BR>
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: TL disparities in the OTU<BR>
<BR>
> On Behalf Of Leonard Erickson<BR>
> Sent: Sunday, 9 April 2000 08:09<BR>
> >> The next to last line sings the praises of the 'net itself as<BR>
> a "secure"<BR>
> >> method of storage because "in theory, information on the<BR>
> internet will last<BR>
> >> forever."<BR>
> ><BR>
> > "Danger Will Robinson! faulty logic approaching." What do these<BR>
> > people think that the web pages are but information stored on<BR>
> > computer hard drives?<BR>
><BR>
> Well, the thing is *most* ISPs do backups. And they migrate data to new<BR>
> hardware on a semi-regular basis.<BR>
<BR>
Yeah, if you convince other people to archive your data it's often<BR>
recoverable.<BR>
Look at the number of times people on the TML lose data locally and get it<BR>
back just by asking.<BR>
<BR>
Relying on the internet as a safe form of storage is a good idea, as long as<BR>
you do it _right_ and submit to multiple reliable sites, and keep an eye on<BR>
the sites.<BR>
<BR>
More importantly, as long as it's not "confidential" data, having it on the<BR>
net means it's accessible whenever you want it, whereever you are (within<BR>
reason).<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> One of these days soon, I get to start converting data from 15-20 year<BR>
> old cassette tapes and floppy disks (last time I checked, they were<BR>
> actually still readable!) to Zip disks.<BR>
<BR>
Just a point Zip Disks (IME) are _very_ unreliable.<BR>
<BR>
It's cheaper and safer to buy two 12Gb hard disks, install then in separate<BR>
machines<BR>
and mirror the data between them.<BR>
<BR>
> Then, when I have time to sort thru stuff, many of the Zip disks will<BR>
> get burned into CD-ROMs.<BR>
<BR>
I'm assuming you know how to store and look after CDRs ?<BR>
Otherwise they're even less reliable than Zip-disks.<BR>
<BR>
Frankie<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 08 Apr 2000 18:52:13 -0700<BR>
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)<BR>
Subject: re: Striker miniatures<BR>
<BR>
>From: Kristian Miller <travellerne@3rd-imperium.com><BR>
>Subject: Traveller Board Gaming Meet @ San Jose, 15 April<BR>
...<BR>
>Next month we start Striker miniatures!<BR>
<BR>
  What scale/figures/engagment size are you guys doing? Heck, which<BR>
version of the Striker rules?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2000 23:43:54 -0400<BR>
From: "J-Man" <j-man@iname.com><BR>
Subject: Re: TL disparities in the OTU<BR>
<BR>
What tips or pointers are you hinting at?  I have many CDRs.<BR>
___________________________________________________________<BR>
 J-Man<BR>
 ICQ# 2843475<BR>
 New Hampshire - U.S.A.<BR>
 Email : j-man@iname.com<BR>
 Home Page : http://www.gocsystems.com/<BR>
___________________________________________________________<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message ----- <BR>
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Saturday, April 08, 2000 10:32 PM<BR>
Subject: RE: TL disparities in the OTU<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> I'm assuming you know how to store and look after CDRs ?<BR>
> Otherwise they're even less reliable than Zip-disks.<BR>
> <BR>
> Frankie<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 08 Apr 2000 23:48:14 -0400<BR>
From: Jeff Zeitlin <jzeitlin@cyburban.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Adventure, I got an Adventure, Yee Ha etc<BR>
<BR>
On Sat, 8 Apr 2000 12:32:36 -0400 (EDT), "Karen and Michael<BR>
Hughes" <kmhughes@dynamite.com.au> wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>I've written up an adventure for a current campaign, which I now have to<BR>
>'junk' because it doesn't fit. So for all you adventure collectors out<BR>
>there, would anyone want a look? I'm HTML incapable, otherwise I'd zip it to<BR>
>a web site. So I guess if anyone wants to scope it out, give me an email.<BR>
<BR>
>Here's the synopsis.<BR>
<BR>
<pant, pant, drool> Send it on, to either<BR>
freelancetraveller@yahoo.com or jzeitlin@cyburban.com.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
Jeff Zeitlin<BR>
jzeitlin@cyburban.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 02:15:21 +1000<BR>
From: "Karen and Michael Hughes" <kmhughes@dynamite.com.au><BR>
Subject: Fame, I wouldn't mind living for a long time<BR>
<BR>
Me<BR>
> >Fame is calculated thusly - 1 for each non enlisted rank O6+, 1 for an<BR>
MCG<BR>
> > (or equivalent), 2 for a SEH (or equivalent), 1 for each Social Status<BR>
point<BR>
> > B+, 1 for being Dishonourably Discharged and/or Jailed and 1 if escaped<BR>
and<BR>
> > on the run.  If performed activities in campaign that would make them<BR>
> > famous, then add something for that as well.<BR>
<BR>
From Auric Ships<BR>
> I would also give enlisted E9s a 1 (at least if the military IYTU<BR>
> resembles the US military).  Sergeants Major and Master Chief Petty<BR>
> Officers, especially those assigned to flag-rank commands, are at least<BR>
> as well-known as colonels, IMHO.<BR>
<BR>
From Frankie<BR>
> Hmm, I have a feeling that Soc should have something to do with this too,<BR>
> but I'm not sure what.<BR>
><BR>
Me Now<BR>
<BR>
Great ideas!. E9's get a +1, and whomever is making the fame check gets to<BR>
use the highest of Educ or Social.<BR>
<BR>
You guys are de man etc.<BR>
<BR>
Thanks for input.<BR>
<BR>
PS Brownie Point idea from Frankie also good. I will reserve BP for the<BR>
following - a success by 6 or more on a task roll crucial to the<BR>
mission/adventure; excellent role playing; brilliant plan which has me<BR>
flummoxed; and the critical most important one - making me laugh.<BR>
<BR>
Cause for me, that's what it's all about.<BR>
<BR>
Michael<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 08 Apr 2000 23:30:25 -0500<BR>
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Fame, I wouldn't mind living for a long time<BR>
<BR>
Karen and Michael Hughes wrote:<BR>
<<snip>><BR>
> <BR>
> Great ideas!. E9's get a +1, and whomever is making the fame check gets to<BR>
> use the highest of Educ or Social.<BR>
<BR>
For service members recognizing high-ranking service-members (either<BR>
current or fairly recently retired), how about using the highest of: <BR>
Edu, Soc, _or_ number of terms in the appropriate service?  That would<BR>
reflect the fact that, regardless of Soc or Edu, lifers would tend to<BR>
know (or at least know of) other lifers.<BR>
<BR>
In fact, here's an extension of the idea:<BR>
<BR>
2D (<= applicable stat):  The character has at least heard of the famous<BR>
character in question.<BR>
<BR>
3D (<= applicable stat):  The character has served with/under the famous<BR>
character.<BR>
<BR>
4D (<= applicable stat):  As the 3D check, plus the famous character<BR>
_remembers_ the checking character.<BR>
<BR>
Modifiers:  Dependent on:<BR>
<BR>
   a.  Previously-established circumstances in the campaign.<BR>
<BR>
   b.  Dramatic necessity.<BR>
<BR>
<<snip>><BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2000 17:01:52 +1200<BR>
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: TL disparities in the OTU<BR>
<BR>
> On Behalf Of J-Man<BR>
><BR>
> What tips or pointers are you hinting at?  I have many CDRs.<BR>
<BR>
Basically, keep them in a cool, dark place out of the reach of the sun or<BR>
excessive temperature change .<BR>
<BR>
There are several failure modes.<BR>
<BR>
Heat changes can cause them to delaminate, as can rough handling, and some<BR>
drives are really bad at chipping the edges of CDRs, and once that happens<BR>
delamination is usually not to far off.<BR>
<BR>
As the data is stored on the disk using a light-sensitive dye, light can<BR>
cause data loss on the CDR in the same way that exposing photographs to<BR>
sunlight causes them to fade. (There's reason Kodak manufacture CDRs, the<BR>
technology is similar to photography)<BR>
<BR>
Leaving a CDR uncovered on the parcel shelf of a car is one of the best ways<BR>
of getting it tio lose data, should you be trying to <grin>.<BR>
<BR>
Some weaker-lasered CD drives also have trouble reading CDR's.<BR>
<BR>
Obviously the better the quality of the blank CDR, and the better the<BR>
quality of your drive the less these problems will affect you, but overall,<BR>
the more you read it, the quicker the CDR will degrade, as they are light<BR>
sensitive, and the laser used to read it is, of course, light !<BR>
<BR>
Frankie<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
 ___________________________________________________________<BR>
>  J-Man<BR>
>  ICQ# 2843475<BR>
>  New Hampshire - U.S.A.<BR>
>  Email : j-man@iname.com<BR>
>  Home Page : http://www.gocsystems.com/<BR>
> ___________________________________________________________<BR>
><BR>
> ----- Original Message -----<BR>
> From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
> To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
> Sent: Saturday, April 08, 2000 10:32 PM<BR>
> Subject: RE: TL disparities in the OTU<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> > I'm assuming you know how to store and look after CDRs ?<BR>
> > Otherwise they're even less reliable than Zip-disks.<BR>
> ><BR>
> > Frankie<BR>
> ><BR>
> ><BR>
><BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2000 21:45:20 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Smart weapons <BR>
<BR>
A friend sent me this. I thought it is appropriate as an example of the<BR>
things that can "go wrong" with early "smart weapons". :-)<BR>
<BR>
It's also a good example of how a *different* sort of "crazed genius"<BR>
than Ditzie's type can go overboard on the wrong aspects of a design. <BR>
<BR>
Better yet, have *this* be the only sort of weapon the PCs can buy on a<BR>
high Law Level world. :-)<BR>
<BR>
[re-mailed to you from mail]<BR>
<BR>
Smith & Wesson, in partnership with Microsoft, is proud to announce<BR>
their most recent smart hand gun innovation: the S&W/WIN 2001. The<BR>
S&W/WIN 2001 is more than a space odyssey, it is hailed by its creators<BR>
as a masterful melding of formerly diverse technologies in an attempt<BR>
to meet America's handgun needs for the 21st century and beyond. This<BR>
is the first handgun in firearms history to be endorsed by the White<BR>
House and members of both parties.<BR>
<BR>
The S&W/WIN 2001 runs at 850 mhz, has 128 meg of ram, expandable to 100<BR>
gb hard drive storage externally, has a two inch square color video<BR>
display unit and pop out keyboard, internet access, accepts standard<BR>
RJ-11 phone jack interface or optical connectors, and runs a continuous<BR>
cool 36 watts, with AC wall adapter and convenient 6 foot power cord.<BR>
The S&W/WIN 2001 can run two full hours on external batteries, thus<BR>
rendering it fully portable for the field, shooting matches, and<BR>
general use in rare applications requiring greater than 6 foot range<BR>
from the power grid. For all this capability, the gun is almost<BR>
weightless at 9 pounds, 5 ounces, not including the 4 pound external<BR>
rechargeable environmentally safe battery pack which can easily be hung<BR>
from belt or shoulder strap.<BR>
<BR>
This will be the ideal handgun system of choice for homeowner<BR>
protection, as it boots up, self tests, can recognize the necessary<BR>
fingerprints, retinal scan, vocal signature, user ID, user password,<BR>
perform sobriety tests, and is fully operational for fire in a mere<BR>
52.5 seconds from power on. Future higher speed military models are<BR>
expected to be "fire-ready" in as little as 30 seconds.<BR>
<BR>
Critics argued that the majority of gun fights take 2.5 seconds, and<BR>
this would render the gun useless against intruders. "We do appreciate<BR>
these concerns," a spokesperson for Smith & Wesson said during a news<BR>
conference, "but the intruders will also have to wait the necessary<BR>
boot-up fire-ready time, and, don't forget that future models will be<BR>
equipped with forward looking visible and infrared band cameras which<BR>
will prevent the gun from ever firing at people or human-signature heat<BR>
sources when the necessary software has been fully tested. There are<BR>
also plans to integrate a cell phone in newer models, along with<BR>
hundreds of popular game applications such as solitaire, with<BR>
advertising banners."<BR>
<BR>
Critics also argued that the S&W/WIN 2001 can only fire two rounds of<BR>
ammunition before requiring reload. "We had to make room for the<BR>
memory, motherboard, and video display unit," the spokesman replied,<BR>
"so it was management's decision in tandem with government<BR>
recommendations to reduce the clip size to make room for the smarts."<BR>
<BR>
The President of the United States was so overwhelmed during trial<BR>
tests, because not only does the gun tell you in a female computer<BR>
generated voice (with user selectable vocal parameters) how many rounds<BR>
have been fired and how many rounds remain before, during, and after<BR>
each firing, but every pistol will automatically download (after<BR>
election results) the images of all future Presidents and government<BR>
officials for target comparison to prevent accidental assassinations.<BR>
<BR>
The Microsoft chairman said, "The added beauty of this streamlined<BR>
piece is it's extraordinary ability to simultaneously run Microsoft<BR>
Explorer and Netscape, so licensees at gun tournaments can surf the<BR>
web, do research or whatever they desire while waiting their turn to<BR>
shoot."<BR>
<BR>
The Smith & Wesson spokesman proudly added, "It is expected that future<BR>
firearms will not even require the firing of live ammunition because a<BR>
person's score can be tabulated electronically and even be immediately<BR>
internet posted for the world to see."<BR>
<BR>
Naysayers and Second Amendment activists asked the chairman how a man<BR>
could shoot a duck with such a ridiculous weapon or defend his home and<BR>
family against predators possessing older model firearms dating from<BR>
way back in the 20th century. With a smile, he replied, "As far as<BR>
hunting goes, if a hit gets registered, the size and weight of the duck<BR>
will be automatically tabulated, uploaded to the nearest butcher or<BR>
supermarket, and a duck of similar size and stature will be delivered<BR>
by messenger to the gun licensee's house and the bill will<BR>
automatically appear on his credit card.  This is a very intelligent<BR>
gun system. As far as self-protection is concerned, older weapons are<BR>
clearly obsolete, and more education is what's really necessary, and<BR>
the S&W/WIN 2001 is only the first step. This is an enhancement, and,<BR>
dare I say, a celebration of the Second Amendment, so I really don't<BR>
know what everyone's problem is."<BR>
<BR>
The S&W spokesperson had no comment on the fact that independent<BR>
evaluation labs have determined that the electronically controlled<BR>
safety feature could be easily defeated with a one cent paper clip.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 08 Apr 2000 21:31:06 -0800<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Fuel Cell Debate<BR>
<BR>
"William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net><BR>
<BR>
> >Too bad. Hydrogen/Oxygen fuel cells exist in the real world. And are<BR>
> >the most *common* kind.<BR>
> <BR>
> MT specifies H2/O2 as Fuel Cell fuel. And says to multiply fuel consumption<BR>
> by 9, if not air-breathing. [MT Ref's Manual, p 56]<BR>
<BR>
Page 58 in my 1st & 2nd printing copies.<BR>
<BR>
> >Also, you need to recalculate your figures for fuel cells if that's<BR>
> >what they say. Fuel cells require *oxygen* to produce the electricity.<BR>
> >So we've established that the rules are *completely* broken with<BR>
> >regards to fuel cells.<BR>
<BR>
> Only in FF&S. Fuel cells are one of the areas where FF&S didn't crib MT's<BR>
> tables. Perhaps it should have. (MT Fuel Cells, at TL<12, burn .4L/hour at<BR>
> .1 KL of fuel cell, producing .9MW, for Cr2000 and .165 tons; TL 13-14,<BR>
> they produce 1.35MW and mass .12375 Tons; TL 15 produces 2.7MW at mass<BR>
> 0.0825 Tm; at TL 15, they produce 3.15MW and mass 0.066 Tm (Yes, only<BR>
> 66kg!).<BR>
<BR>
Are you sure of these figures Will, maybe you converted <BR>
them to power per kl where the table gives power per 0.1 kl? <BR>
My 1st & 2nd printings both give power outputs of 0.1 times <BR>
these figures - 0.09 MW at TL's less than or equal to 12, <BR>
0.135 MW at TL 13 &14, 0.27 MW at TL 15 and 0.315 MW at TL 16+. <BR>
for a 0.1 kl cell [MT Ref Manual p 64]. Did you mistake a <BR>
decimal point or have these tables been errataed somewhere I <BR>
am unaware of?<BR>
<BR>
So to power a 15 MW TL 15 scientific station with fuel cells<BR>
we need (rounding up) 56 times these figures to produce the <BR>
needed power. Therefore our fuel cell will require (in a<BR>
non oxygen atmosphere) 145,152 liters <BR>
[0.4 l/hour x 56 x 24 x 30 x 9] or 145.152 kl or<BR>
10.752 DT's of fuel per month.<BR>
It will cost Cr 112,000. MT says that the Hydrogen costs<BR>
Cr 35 per kl but does not say how much the oxygen<BR>
will cost if we assume (yes I know this is arbitrary and<BR>
that in reality the oxygen's cost will vary) that it costs<BR>
the same as hydrogen it will cost Cr 5,082.32/month.<BR>
<BR>
The cheapest means of transporting this fuel to the<BR>
observatory seems to be in collapsible fuel bladders<BR>
(1 for hydrogen and 1 for oxygen). When the ship arrives<BR>
it would simply pump them onto the observatory.<BR>
<BR>
At TL 15 batteries store 0.007 megawatt hours per 0.001 kl<BR>
(0.001 kl  - 1 liter of course). TL 8 batteries by comparison<BR>
store 0.0004 megawatt hours per kl.<BR>
<BR>
To power the TL 15 station with batteries we need 2,143<BR>
(15/0.007 rounding up) per hour times the base volume of <BR>
0.001 kl. Thus we need 2143 x 24 x 30 = 1,542,960 liters<BR>
or 1,542.96 kl or 114.3 DT's of batteries per month. They<BR>
will cost Cr 21,430,000 and are rechargeable.<BR>
<BR>
Therefore (despite his tone) Leonard was right and I was wrong.<BR>
Fuel cells are better than batteries. I erred by using FF&S <BR>
instead of the MT Referee's manual.<BR>
<BR>
At Tl 14 the fuel cell uses 21.5 tons of fuel while the batteries <BR>
occupy 200 tons. At TL 12 the fuel cell uses 32.25 tons while<BR>
the batteries occupy 800 tons. At lower TL's the batteries are<BR>
even worse.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2000 01:32:37 -0500<BR>
From: tim@premier.net<BR>
Subject: notes on Forine<BR>
<BR>
Both Idot/Savant and Robert made suggestions about my geology <BR>
of Forine along similar lines.  By reading both your post am right in <BR>
thinking if I make Forine a young world and bring it much closer to <BR>
its star than things would make sense?  <BR>
<BR>
If I do this then I would increase the tempeture, which, should alow <BR>
for both the molton core and some free floating water if heated by <BR>
the volcaneo or other raptures, or even the human heat idea right?<BR>
<BR>
My next question is what will this do to the world's orbital period <BR>
and rotation.  At 1 AU that should mean a 366 day orbit right?  <BR>
Rotation should need not change?<BR>
<BR>
This would lead to Idot/Savant's Titan and Robert's idea of Europe <BR>
ice explosions...cool  : )<BR>
<BR>
Oh thanks for the complements on the Hippidos.  I did model it on <BR>
Io, can you imagine skimming through this stuff?  Though I didn't <BR>
think of the moons being made up of hydrogen/ helium 3.  Can <BR>
these rocks then be mined for jump fuel?  <BR>
Tim Reynolds<BR>
tim@premier.net <BR>
225-334-5063<BR>
- ------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
Getting an education was a bit like a communicable <BR>
sexual disease.  It made you unsuitable for <BR>
a lot of jobs and then you had the urge to pass it on.<BR>
<BR>
Terry Pratchett <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2000 08:36:32 +0200<BR>
From: Ingo Heinscher <Hiroshi.Estigarribia@gmx.de><BR>
Subject: Re: GT Navy<BR>
<BR>
At 22:05 08.04.00 EDT, GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:<BR>
>In a message dated 00-04-08 05:44:28 EDT, you write:<BR>
><BR>
><< Is GT:IN to be written again or is this just a leftover from earlier<BR>
days? <BR>
> >><BR>
><BR>
>We are looking for a completely new manuscript.<BR>
<BR>
Since I'm not a pyramid or JTAS subscriber, I have to ask: What was wrong<BR>
with the first draft? Anything that people who think about thinking about<BR>
making their own proposal :) should keep in mind?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
"This was not meant to be an aggresssion against the Siru Zirka. But we had<BR>
to organize our affairs a bit more efficiently. To be honest, we have had<BR>
to do this for almost 300 years by now."<BR>
unknown Terran politician, -2398 Imp<BR>
;-) ingo heinscher <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2000 08:21:40 +0200<BR>
From: Ingo Heinscher <Hiroshi.Estigarribia@gmx.de><BR>
Subject: Re: The Ludowick Gambit <longish><BR>
<BR>
At 12:27 08.04.00 PST, Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
<BR>
[snip]<BR>
>> This opens potential for a TU with an "misjump xboat network" or M-boat<BR>
>> network if you will. At least the Archdukes and the Emperor will be linked<BR>
>> by such...<BR>
>><BR>
>> Hm. This wouldn't change the OTU too much, I'd say, but OTOH, you possibly<BR>
>> can't keep this network a secret. So many ships showing on at various<BR>
>> locations, probably a large IISS subdivision with a high mortality rate and<BR>
>> therefore (probably) a certain esprit de corps among its members... <BR>
>><BR>
>> So it must be known to the public IMO.<BR>
><BR>
>There's a *much* simpler explanation. It takes care of *all* variants<BR>
>of this, and helps explain why it takes so long to increase max jump<BR>
>distance. <BR>
><BR>
>The rolls are for *accidental* misjumps. For some reason, *deliberate*<BR>
>misjumps always result in the disappearance of the ship. They are<BR>
>*presumed* destroyed, but no one really knows. There's even a theory<BR>
>that says they wind up making *much* bigger misjumps (say 100 parsec<BR>
>*minimum*).<BR>
<BR>
Well, this might an explanation, but then one could ask: What is the<BR>
difference between a deliberate misjump and an accidental misjump? I mean,<BR>
wouldn't it be enough to keep logs of everything that happens during jump<BR>
preparation etc. and when you experience a misjump, follow the log a as an<BR>
instruction for a new jump?<BR>
<BR>
IMHO stating "It can't work because some reason prevents it" is not very<BR>
much SF-like. It fits for a Fantasy world with magic and all, but the OTU?<BR>
No, IMHO.<BR>
<BR>
Hm. What else might prevent this "Mboat network" from having happened in<BR>
the OTU? <BR>
<BR>
Okay, one answer I stated earlier is they just haven't had the idea.<BR>
Possible, though improbable, I think, since we have a background with over<BR>
10,000 years of space-faring history. The only point one could bring up for<BR>
this is the lack of valid statistical data on the subject of misjumps. They<BR>
may have a theory, but cannot "measure it out". We as players and GM's,<BR>
OTOH, know the probabilites from the tables. (If we not use the IMVHO<BR>
better GT approach.)<BR>
<BR>
Apart from the above, there is, of course, another possibility: An mboat<BR>
network exists. Full stop. Just because no source has not mentioned it yet<BR>
doesn't mean it doesn't exist. It is not a secret, but Imperial policy is<BR>
to keep the image of the "m-networker" low enough for it not being as<BR>
interesting for the average Imperial citizen as any other branch. Perhaps<BR>
it is even a punbishment ("Either you go to a prison world for life or you<BR>
one turn in the Mboat network. It is your coice, murderer!").<BR>
 <BR>
- -- <BR>
"This was not meant to be an aggresssion against the Siru Zirka. But we had<BR>
to organize our affairs a bit more efficiently. To be honest, we have had<BR>
to do this for almost 300 years by now."<BR>
unknown Terran politician, -2398 Imp<BR>
;-) ingo heinscher <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2000 18:51:19 +1200<BR>
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: Smart weapons<BR>
<BR>
On Behalf Of Leonard Erickson<BR>
> A friend sent me this. I thought it is appropriate as an example of the<BR>
> things that can "go wrong" with early "smart weapons". :-)<BR>
<BR>
BTW, S&W are behind the times, an Australian gun manufacturer is already in<BR>
production with a "smart" pistol.<BR>
<BR>
It won't fire unless the user is wearing an elecronic key currently mounted<BR>
in a ring, and it fires selectable amounts of ammunition at very high ROF<BR>
when you squeeze the trigger. The entire action is electronic, and they are<BR>
already getting contracts with US law enforcement and military.<BR>
<BR>
They showed a slo-mo video of the gun putting three bullets into the same<BR>
hole on a target with a single trigger squeeze.<BR>
<BR>
This was shown on the TV news over here a couple of days ago, interspersed<BR>
with shots of Stallone's version of Judge Dredd, but unfortunately I don't<BR>
have a web site reference.<BR>
<BR>
Frankie<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2000 00:26:36 -0700<BR>
From: "Luther Martin" <martin@ksarul.com><BR>
Subject: RE: The Ludowick Gambit <longish><BR>
<BR>
Ingo Heinscher wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Well, this might an explanation, but then one could ask: What is the<BR>
> difference between a deliberate misjump and an accidental misjump? I mean,<BR>
> wouldn't it be enough to keep logs of everything that happens during jump<BR>
> preparation etc. and when you experience a misjump, follow the log a as an<BR>
> instruction for a new jump?<BR>
<BR>
The problem is that we only have good data for what happens in this<BR>
universe. Jumping involves moving through jumpspace, and there may be<BR>
changes in jumpspace over time. I see jumpspace as another universe which<BR>
also moves relative to ours. This keeps things interesting. You can chart<BR>
the other universe, but at TL15 its not practical yet. That's why pilots and<BR>
navigators have stuff to do during jumps in addition to playing space card<BR>
games with the Silicon Valley Tarot Deck.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2000 23:46:32 -0800<BR>
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Idle Traveller Musings<BR>
<BR>
> 1) Has anyone GMed Norris? If so, how did they play him? As an M from James<BR>
> Bond type figure? As a dynamic varied personality? Robotically and only for<BR>
> plot purposes? Any quirks that I should throw in should I bring him up to<BR>
> the plate?<BR>
<BR>
I have always treated Norris as slightly overworked, essentially a naval<BR>
officer reliant upon his staff to keep him from the subtle social and<BR>
courtly faux-pas, and having enough know-how to avoid the big flubs<BR>
himself. Slightly loud, using large gestures, but concise, and always<BR>
fairly blunt. Neither elegant nor opposed to elegance.<BR>
<BR>
Norris is, IMTU, definitely emotionally, tho' not of need romantically or<BR>
physically, involved with Branj Dilgaadin, his pet defector. The<BR>
relationship is reminiscent of that between Jeeves and Phule in Asprin's<BR>
_Phule's Company_. I percieve Norris as being a bisexual, with a slight<BR>
male preference, but no time nor real desire to seek out partners.<BR>
<BR>
Branj is a calm, efficient, able, and friendly, but also unobtrusive sort.<BR>
He really does read Norris surface thoughts often, and there is also a<BR>
strong and warm friendship. One that might evolve into a romance at some<BR>
point, based upon years of emotional and intellectual intimacy not possible<BR>
without involving a telepath.<BR>
<BR>
William F. Hostman  |  "Smith & Wesson: THe original Point and Click<BR>
interface!"<BR>
Aramis 0602 C55A364-C S kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge-<BR>
533<BR>
aramis@gci.net http://home.gci.net/~aramis Vilani: uilamaanamti sirohbrankilin<BR>
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn- t4-- tt+ to- tg-- ru+ ge 3i+ c+ jt-() au+ st- ls<BR>
pi+() ta+ he+(-) kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge- pi+<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2000 20:16:44 +1200<BR>
From: a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz<BR>
Subject: JTAS discussion areas<BR>
<BR>
Is it just me, or have these disappeared?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2000 20:43:46 -0700<BR>
From: Edward Swatschek <traveller@bitslayer.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Astronomy in the 57th Century<BR>
<BR>
On Sat, 08 Apr 2000, Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
<BR>
[...]<BR>
> So again, FF&S blows it. LOX/LH2 makes a lot of sense in Traveller,<BR>
> expecially for space installations. You need tankage and handling for<BR>
> LH2 anyway, and in anything much larger than a ship's boat, LOX is the<BR>
> best way to store oxygen.<BR>
[...]<BR>
<BR>
FF&S specifies that fuel cells burn hydrocarbon distillates or LHyd.<BR>
<BR>
 <BR>
- -- <BR>
Edward Swatschek - edjs@bitslayer.net<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2000 01:06:38 -0700<BR>
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)<BR>
Subject: Fuel cells<BR>
<BR>
>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
>Subject: Re: Astronomy in the 57th Century<BR>
...<BR>
>And don't even *think* about trying to tell me that the rules don't say<BR>
>anything about it. They don't say that internal combustion engines need<BR>
>air either!<BR>
<BR>
 (smug/) Striker covered the above for CT (/smug<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2000 10:10:08 +0100<BR>
From: "Derrick Jones" <dojones.whitestar@btinternet.com><BR>
Subject: Re Duelling Penguins<BR>
<BR>
Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella (in response to) > (this is probably getting a bit silly...)<BR>
<BR>
>Probably? Not that I am bothered, been following the thread with great amusement.<BR>
<BR>
Looks at Matt....<BR>
<BR>
You ready for another example? Hate to disappoint...<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Derrick<BR>
<BR>
Derrick Jones<BR>
St Helens<BR>
Lancashire UK<BR>
http://www.btinternet.com/~dojones.whitestar<BR>
<BR>
Leeds 14 - St Helens 42<BR>
(Who got the thrashing then, Matt? Care for a slice of this very nice pie?)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2274<BR>
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Traveller-digest       Sunday, April 9 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2275<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Astronomy in the 57th Century<BR>
Re: GT-Q: Starport Construction Questions<BR>
Re: TL disparities in the OTU<BR>
Re: Re Long-term storage<BR>
Re: Astronomy in the 57th Century<BR>
Re: L+ Megacorp (was RS)<BR>
Re: Tech Question: GT stats/effects for Orbital Kinetic weapon(Thor)<BR>
Re: Traveller is the #1 RPG, but only barely...<BR>
Re: WANTED: GT Size Specs for Common Small Ships<BR>
Re: re Rugby<BR>
Re: The Ludowick Gambit <longish><BR>
Re: Fuel cells<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2000 22:10:35 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Astronomy in the 57th Century<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>> BTW, you won't load them into cargo containers. They'd be modules as<BR>
>> big as cargo containers, possibly modules that are as big as will fit<BR>
>> thru the cargo holds. You *don't* use individual batteries for<BR>
>> something like this. You use modules that are as big as you can get<BR>
>> away with. It's less handling in the long run.<BR>
><BR>
> Exactly, I envision each 4 DT cargo container having a single<BR>
> battery inside it. You could remove the battery if you really <BR>
> had to but basically it fills the container. <BR>
<BR>
You still miss the point. They will not be "cargo containers with a<BR>
single battery inside. Since they'll be custom units anyway, the<BR>
*batteries* will be the size and shape of a cargo module, with<BR>
apropriate surface features (lock on points for cargo handling gear,<BR>
for example). <BR>
<BR>
>> >> Pumping liquids is<BR>
>> >> going to be easier than any method of changing batteries.<BR>
>> ><BR>
>> > While logic indicates that it may indeed take more time and <BR>
>> > effort to move cargo containers than to pump liquids there<BR>
>> > are no canonical Traveller rules I am aware of stating<BR>
>> > this. Therefore in Traveller this purportedly difficulty must<BR>
>> > not exist.<BR>
>> <BR>
>> This is at least the third time you've used this sort of logic. So I'm<BR>
>> going to tell you this for the last time:<BR>
>> Failure of the rules to mention something does *not* mean that it is<BR>
>> not the way things are. <BR>
><BR>
> Of course it does. <BR>
><BR>
> The rules do in fact mention this. If you look under the<BR>
> 'Starship Expenses' section of most any Traveller rules set<BR>
> you will see the starship expenses they list. The cost of<BR>
> transshipping cargo is not on this list. The absence of the<BR>
> expense required to transship bulky cargo _is_ an official<BR>
> canonical statement that such expenses do not exist. If they<BR>
> did exist then they would be on the expense list and players<BR>
> would have to worry about paying them.<BR>
><BR>
> In the real world absence of evidence is not evidence of<BR>
> absence but in the game world anything left out of the rules<BR>
> must (until errataed otherwise) be assumed to have been deliberately<BR>
> left out because the designer choose not to model that part<BR>
> of reality in the game universe.<BR>
><BR>
> The absence of rules for the cost and time requirements for <BR>
> moving cargo from the ship to the destination is an official<BR>
> declaration that for the purposes of the game they don't matter.<BR>
<BR>
I never said it *cost* more. I said it was "more trouble" or "more<BR>
effort". *Not* the same thing. And not something the players normally<BR>
have to deal with.<BR>
<BR>
>> And moreover, when the rules and real world<BR>
>> data differ, the real world wins. <BR>
><BR>
> So do you have a three dimensional Traveller Universe<BR>
> with no jump drives in it?<BR>
<BR>
The rules don't say that you have to use a 2-d map. Really! The<BR>
official *background* uses 2d maps. Not the same thing. <BR>
<BR>
Remember, I'm one of the guys who has been discussing how to make<BR>
workable 3d maps. <BR>
<BR>
2d maps are a *playability* matter.<BR>
<BR>
As for jump drive, it's *not* impossible. Just very unlikely. <BR>
<BR>
Thruster plates, on the other hand...<BR>
<BR>
> IMTU the real world only wins when on matters that might<BR>
> not change. My Traveller universe does not have type VI<BR>
> stars in it because I accept astronomers explanation that<BR>
> they do not exist. The real world does not contain any<BR>
> TL 14 jump capable ships therefore we can not say that<BR>
> the real world wins over the rules since we do not have<BR>
> the needed real world data.<BR>
<BR>
Right.<BR>
<BR>
>> If you can't accept this, then please quit wasting my time, as we have<BR>
>> no common ground for discussion.<BR>
><BR>
> The Traveller rules sets are models of reality. Any expense<BR>
> left out of rules is an expense PC's do not have to pay. It<BR>
> would be illogical to make NPC's pay it. Therefore we not<BR>
> only can but should ignore them in our discussions. If you <BR>
> can't accept this, then please quit responding to my posts<BR>
> in this manner as we have no common ground for discussion.<BR>
<BR>
Again, I didn't say *expense*, I was talking about what is *easier*. <BR>
Just because A is harder than B doesn't always mean you can charge more<BR>
for A. But it *does* mean that given a choice, you may opt for B even<BR>
if it costs a bit more.<BR>
<BR>
>> No, you can use "container tanks" for the LOX. But as I said, *most*<BR>
>> fuel cells currently use LH2 *not* av gas!<BR>
><BR>
>> And I beg to differ with you regarding tankage. That 200 ton merchants<BR>
>> had better have a lot of fuel tankage or it isn't getting anywhere.<BR>
><BR>
> A 400 ton merchant with a 200 ton cargo hold, the standard<BR>
> subsidized merchant.<BR>
<BR>
Ok, my mistake. You kept throwing around "200 ton".<BR>
<BR>
>> >> That "spare" capacity can be used to carry LH2. <BR>
><BR>
>> > There is no spare capacity on the standard subsidized merchant.<BR>
><BR>
>> Then that isn't the ship that will be used to supply the observatory.<BR>
>> They'll use something that can make 2 J-1s and still have fuel left.<BR>
><BR>
> Why would they use a specialized container ship that is unlikely <BR>
> to have been manufactured in sufficient quantity to get a volume<BR>
> discount for the class? The cost of a standard type M plus<BR>
> the added cost of demountable fuel tanks for the return jump<BR>
> is cheaper than using a ship custom designed for this function.<BR>
> (Unless of course you get a military surplus tanker but<BR>
> most of them are much too big for this role.) The observatory<BR>
> has a budget, whatever they save by using a cheaper ship they<BR>
> can spend elsewhere.<BR>
<BR>
Who said anything about a "specialized container ship"?<BR>
<BR>
To use your own logic, demountable tanks cost money and cut cargo<BR>
capacity. So if there is a "standard" design that can do two J-1s<BR>
without refueling, and has the requisite cargo capacity, *that* is what<BR>
will be used. <BR>
  <BR>
>> So you need to recheck your design.<BR>
><BR>
> Not my design but the standard design for one of the most common <BR>
> ships in the Imperium.<BR>
<BR>
I wasn't referring to the design of the *ship*.<BR>
<BR>
>> >> Check out battery lifetimes for "deep cycle" use, which is what you are<BR>
>> >> talking about.<BR>
>> ><BR>
>> > Traveller canon does not reflect this reality. Therefore the<BR>
>> > only logical conclusion possible is that in the Traveller<BR>
>> > Universe at Traveller Tl's this problem has been solved. I<BR>
>> > fail to understand why you continue to ignore canon in favor<BR>
>> > of our current TL 8 situation.<BR>
>> <BR>
>> This is the *fourth* time you've made this mistake. Canon is what the<BR>
>> books *say*. You *cannot* infer canon from what is *not* said.<BR>
><BR>
> The books do say that batteries do not wear out this fast. If<BR>
> you look in the TNE rules under 'wear value' you will note that<BR>
> they do not say that batteries gain wear value faster than <BR>
> other starship components. If the batteries did wear out faster<BR>
> than the rest of the ship it would have to be mentioned in<BR>
> the wear value section. Since the rules for wear value are for<BR>
> all components including batteries then we know that batteries do<BR>
> not wear out faster than other components.<BR>
<BR>
Starships don't "deep cycle" their batteries either.<BR>
But I'll conced the point anyway.<BR>
<BR>
>> You seem to favor ignoring common sense when it comes to things the<BR>
>> rules are *silent* about. <BR>
><BR>
> The rules are not silent about these matters. The rules list<BR>
> costs that players must pay and things players must do to<BR>
> run a merchant ship. Anything that is not on that list they <BR>
> don't have to pay.<BR>
<BR>
Not true. Refs can and do add extra costs when they feel like it.<BR>
Usually things like "special handling fees" some port wants. <BR>
<BR>
>> To put it another way...<BR>
>> If the rules *say* "you can't do X", that's canon. If they do not say<BR>
>> anything about X, then there *is no* canon on the subject. <BR>
><BR>
> If the rules do not say that player characters have to pay<BR>
> for something then (in the canonical Traveller Universe) they<BR>
> do not have to pay for it. In the real world everything costs<BR>
> money. Therefore the absence of a charge for cargo transport<BR>
> is the clearest possible canonical evidence of its irrelevance<BR>
> in the Traveller universe.<BR>
<BR>
Sorry, but unless the rules say that you *don't* have to pay for<BR>
something, then failure to list it as something to be paid for means<BR>
that it is up to the ref. *Not* that it isn't paid for.<BR>
<BR>
>> Freight gets delivered at a port, which, presumably has the proper<BR>
>> handling gear and crew.<BR>
>> Deliveries at the observatory are going to be handled by the crew of<BR>
>> the ship, and the (small) "support staff" of the observatory. <BR>
>> Given that, which would *you* set things up for. Having to move around<BR>
>> tons of battery modules, and in the process power down part of the<BR>
>> observatory? <BR>
><BR>
> Why on earth do you need to power down part of the observatory.<BR>
> Simply build your observatory as an open frame structure in <BR>
> the first place. Then build a cargo handling robot (big,<BR>
> dumb, strong and cheap) to move the fresh 4 DT batteries <BR>
> into the place of the discharged ones. Replace them one at<BR>
> a time and use the power from the other batteries while you do so.<BR>
<BR>
Stop and think for a minute. A given size "battery module" puts out a<BR>
certain amount of power. If you disconnect it, the rest of the<BR>
batteries are *not* going to take up the slack. You'll have to *reduce*<BR>
usage while you are running on less than the full number of modules. <BR>
<BR>
Remember, you are trying to cut costs. That means you design for a<BR>
number of modules that can handle peak load, and no more. And on an<BR>
observatory, the load isn't going to *have* much in the way of "peaks".<BR>
<BR>
That's because most peaks are related to daily usage patterns, and the<BR>
observatory is going to be running multiple "shifts" to maximize usage<BR>
of all that expensive equipment. <BR>
<BR>
So either you shut something down while swapping modules, or you<BR>
design in an extra module or two (which raises the cost). <BR>
<BR>
There's also the non-trivial matter of attaching a battery to a circuit<BR>
that is already carrying a load. That is both dangerous and hard on the<BR>
equipment (you tend to get massive electrical arcs which will *ruin*<BR>
contacts, as well as anything in the vicinity). Work out how many amps<BR>
the contacts for a battery module are carrying, and at what voltage.<BR>
<BR>
Note that if you *are* swapping them out "live", then the modules have<BR>
to be connected in *parallel*. If they were connected in series,<BR>
disconnecting one module would break the circuit and you'd get no<BR>
power. "Switching out" the module would avoid that, but would cause a<BR>
voltage drop (if there are 12 modules, taking one out would give you<BR>
11/12ths the voltage). This is *not* good for equipment. <BR>
<BR>
With the modules hooked in parallel, you still have the arcing danger,<BR>
but you don't get a voltage drop. You *do* get a drop in max available<BR>
amperage which means the load that can be supported drops.<BR>
<BR>
The main reason I go into this though, is that with the modules wired<BR>
in parallel, each module must supply the *full* operating voltage<BR>
between the contacts. Which means that you are talking several hundred<BR>
volts. And at the amperage a battery like that can supply, that arc<BR>
will cut thru damn near anything that gets in the way.<BR>
<BR>
>> Or connecting a few hoses and turning on the pumps (which<BR>
>> is doable even with containerized fuel)?<BR>
><BR>
> I'd set it up whichever way was the cheapest and batteries are<BR>
> cheaper. In a role playing game rules exist to model a<BR>
> reality the reality that the writers of Traveller have<BR>
> chosen to model is one in which these costs do not matter. If<BR>
> you disagree take it up with them, not with me.<BR>
<BR>
Again, "inconvenience" and "monetary cost" are *not* synonymous. Things<BR>
that are cheap can frequently be *very* inconvenient. Which is why<BR>
you'll find a lot of real world setups that *didn't* use the cheapest<BR>
solution, simply because it's such a hassle.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2000 22:55:33 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: GT-Q: Starport Construction Questions<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>> cargo and passengers often are destined for quite different areas. For<BR>
>> another, there are a lot of cargos that you'd really rather *not* have<BR>
>> on passenger carrying craft.<BR>
><BR>
> Two points on this:<BR>
><BR>
> 1.  Concerning unpleasant cargoes:  One of my favorite references for<BR>
> such is my copy of the 1993 Emergency Response Guidebook, from the US<BR>
> Department of Transportation.  _Very_ useful.  It lists a couple<BR>
> thousand hazardous materials, with instructions for initial response to<BR>
> releases.<BR>
<BR>
I have a much older book (currently in storage). It's a combined volume<BR>
(basicly 4 smaller manuals bound together into a single volume). One is<BR>
a list of hazardous chemicals, along with the proper hazard diamond<BR>
codes. Another is a list of "hazardous chemical reactions". That is, a<BR>
compliation of "don't do this" items based on other people's mistakes.<BR>
:-) <BR>
<BR>
It was an outdated edition, so I got it cheap. And I got it at the<BR>
local community college bookstore because it had been one of the texts<BR>
for a "fireman" course. <BR>
<BR>
If your local college or community college offers "fire safety<BR>
professional" courses or any "haz-mat" (hazardous materials handling)<BR>
courses, check out the bookstore. If they won't sell to non-students,<BR>
or sell at higher prices, find a weekend course that interests you and<BR>
take it. Then you *are* a student. :-)<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2000 23:08:02 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: TL disparities in the OTU<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>> On Behalf Of Leonard Erickson<BR>
>> Sent: Sunday, 9 April 2000 08:09<BR>
>> >> The next to last line sings the praises of the 'net itself as<BR>
>> a "secure"<BR>
>> >> method of storage because "in theory, information on the<BR>
>> internet will last<BR>
>> >> forever."<BR>
>> ><BR>
>> > "Danger Will Robinson! faulty logic approaching." What do these<BR>
>> > people think that the web pages are but information stored on<BR>
>> > computer hard drives?<BR>
>><BR>
>> Well, the thing is *most* ISPs do backups. And they migrate data to new<BR>
>> hardware on a semi-regular basis.<BR>
><BR>
> Yeah, if you convince other people to archive your data it's often<BR>
> recoverable.<BR>
> Look at the number of times people on the TML lose data locally and get it<BR>
> back just by asking.<BR>
><BR>
> Relying on the internet as a safe form of storage is a good idea, as long as<BR>
> you do it _right_ and submit to multiple reliable sites, and keep an eye on<BR>
> the sites.<BR>
><BR>
> More importantly, as long as it's not "confidential" data, having it on the<BR>
> net means it's accessible whenever you want it, whereever you are (within<BR>
> reason).<BR>
<BR>
Have you seen the warehouse.com ad with "Dr. Insidious" talking about<BR>
how easily available his files are?<BR>
<BR>
>> One of these days soon, I get to start converting data from 15-20 year<BR>
>> old cassette tapes and floppy disks (last time I checked, they were<BR>
>> actually still readable!) to Zip disks.<BR>
><BR>
> Just a point Zip Disks (IME) are _very_ unreliable.<BR>
><BR>
> It's cheaper and safer to buy two 12Gb hard disks, install then in separate<BR>
> machines and mirror the data between them.<BR>
<BR>
I've had no trouble, and while I've heard the horror stories, I still<BR>
suspect poor handling had a hand in it. I use them as an "archive"<BR>
medium for infrequently used files, not for a "working medium". <BR>
<BR>
Well, I do have a Zip disk in my "toolbox" that I use for installing<BR>
DOS, and some utilities from. When working on older system like I do,<BR>
it's nice to have complete "installs" of the "last" version of each<BR>
major DOS version (ie 1.1, 2.11, 3.31, 4.01, 5.0, 6.22) on hand, as<BR>
well as the older versions of Windows.<BR>
<BR>
>> Then, when I have time to sort thru stuff, many of the Zip disks will<BR>
>> get burned into CD-ROMs.<BR>
><BR>
> I'm assuming you know how to store and look after CDRs ?<BR>
> Otherwise they're even less reliable than Zip-disks.<BR>
<BR>
That's why I say "eventually". <BR>
<BR>
Tape backups of my system need to be made also. But I am using Zip<BR>
disks for stuff I *don't* want cluttering the server, but I need to be<BR>
able to acces as *files*, not via some stupid restore program.<BR>
<BR>
And there's not really that much of an alternative out there. The only<BR>
comparable media for my purposes would be the LS-120 disk, which don't<BR>
have *nearly* the support. <BR>
<BR>
I'm also sticking to the 100 meg units...<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2000 23:18:10 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Re Long-term storage<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>>>> The next to last line sings the praises of the 'net itself as a "secure"<BR>
>>>> method of storage because "in theory, information on the internet will<BR>
>>last<BR>
>>>> forever."<BR>
>>><BR>
>>>"Danger Will Robinson! faulty logic approaching." What do these<BR>
>>>people think that the web pages are but information stored on<BR>
>>>computer hard drives?<BR>
>><BR>
>>Shhh! Don't talk like that. Don't you know that the internet is the solution<BR>
>>to all of your problems? :)<BR>
><BR>
> Remember, in the US, the government has said that all governmental archives<BR>
> of computer information are to be archived as printouts. Short-term<BR>
> archival storage is to be on Reel-to-reel magnetic tapes, in ascii, comma<BR>
> or tab delimited for databases (no formulae, data only, BTW).<BR>
<BR>
"Databases" don't *have* formulas. If it has formulas as "field"<BR>
contents, it's a spreadsheet. Which *should* be archives in something<BR>
like Microsoft's old SYLK format, which stores *both* the value *and*<BR>
the formula for cells containing formulas. And does so in a plain text<BR>
format that is human readable if you have a cheat sheet to explain the<BR>
notation.<BR>
<BR>
> And, for<BR>
> really long term, you microfilm the printouts. So, technically, all those<BR>
> nice government websites are SUPPOSED to be making either ASCII text files<BR>
> on Tape, or paper printouts.<BR>
<BR>
Actually, theses days a lot of archival data is printed *directly* to<BR>
microfilm. COM (Computer Output Microfilm/Microfiche) units achieve<BR>
truly unreal "page rates" even for mainframe gear. <BR>
<BR>
I assume they are essentially a high res laser "printhead" writing<BR>
directly to the film. <BR>
<BR>
> Hopefully, the 3i will have a better solution. Like eproms, maybe, in<BR>
> ascii? <GD&R)<BR>
<BR>
COM is a nice mix of high tek/low tek. You use very high tek to create<BR>
it, but it is readable with very low tek.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2000 20:53:25 -0700<BR>
From: Edward Swatschek <traveller@bitslayer.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Astronomy in the 57th Century<BR>
<BR>
On Sat, 08 Apr 2000, Peter Newman wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> In the real world absence of evidence is not evidence of<BR>
> absence but in the game world anything left out of the rules<BR>
> must (until errataed otherwise) be assumed to have been deliberately<BR>
> left out because the designer choose not to model that part<BR>
> of reality in the game universe.<BR>
  [...]<BR>
> The absence of rules for the cost and time requirements for <BR>
> moving cargo from the ship to the destination is an official<BR>
> declaration that for the purposes of the game they don't matter.<BR>
  [...]<BR>
> The Traveller rules sets are models of reality. Any expense<BR>
> left out of rules is an expense PC's do not have to pay. It<BR>
> would be illogical to make NPC's pay it. Therefore we not<BR>
> only can but should ignore them in our discussions. If you <BR>
> can't accept this, then please quit responding to my posts<BR>
> in this manner as we have no common ground for discussion.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
I have a hard time imagining running or playing in a universe straightjacketed<BR>
by the above philosophy.<BR>
<BR>
The rules model only a subset of reality. They can not cover everything -<BR>
they can only provide guidelines.  The blanks, the absences, are there to be<BR>
filled in by the referee (and even what is written, changed) to make it a more<BR>
real and enjoyable game for the participants.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Edward Swatschek - edjs@bitslayer.net<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2000 07:17:19 -0400<BR>
From: "Thom Harris" <thomharr@mediaone.net><BR>
Subject: Re: L+ Megacorp (was RS)<BR>
<BR>
I actually like this idea. Mark could divvy up "shares" for contributors and<BR>
actually run it like a corp. If he incorporated then he surely bought the<BR>
"Corporate Kit" which generally includes a package of 15,000 shares of the<BR>
company (or there about). I don't know about you, but I would love to own a<BR>
piece of Traveller.<BR>
<BR>
If he sold 1share for $100, then he would only need to sell 1,000 to 1,500<BR>
shares to buy back DGP from RS. I'm up to it if I get assurances from Mark<BR>
that that's the way the money would be used, minus his expenses of course. I<BR>
could spring for 2 shares now and maybe another 2 or 3 in the next 60 days.<BR>
<BR>
Thom<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: "Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Saturday, April 08, 2000 6:51 PM<BR>
Subject: Re: L+ Megacorp (was RS)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> Via electronic medium on 4/5/00 3:05 PM, agarcia@US.RHODIA.COM issued<BR>
forth:<BR>
><BR>
> > This also probably has long been talked about, but here it goes anyway:<BR>
has<BR>
> > the list considered getting 50+ people together with each contributing<BR>
$500<BR>
> > to the effort and then approach RS with a serious offer?  Then this<BR>
"L-corp"<BR>
> > would turn around and "allow" MM to reprint them as part of current<BR>
> > "reprints" run for a modest license fee. Sure we wouldn't make our grand<BR>
> > back but we each would get an autographed copy of each (hardbound;)<BR>
reprint!<BR>
> > (Yes this is a serious question.)<BR>
><BR>
> I was thinking the same thing when I inquired as to the value of said<BR>
> properties. At six figures I think the best that might be attained is<BR>
> subsidizing Far Future Enterprises, and it it might be a good idea to have<BR>
> degrees of contribution, ie: $50, $100, $1,000, etc.<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2000 16:02:47 +0100<BR>
From: "Nick Bradbeer" <nickb@ndirect.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: Tech Question: GT stats/effects for Orbital Kinetic weapon(Thor)<BR>
<BR>
>> > How effective would PDF be against them?<BR>
>>Depends on the PDF.<BR>
>I reckon Adobe would have to revise the specification above 1.3 to<BR>
>stand any chance against orbitally launched ordnance.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Although if you created all your tanks and cities in Acrobat 4, and the<BR>
attacking fleet only had Acrobat 3, its weapons' targetting systems would<BR>
only see a blank white page, rendering them totally innacurate. I see this<BR>
as a primary role of the SDB flotilla - holding the attackers back long<BR>
enough for us to perform the necessary software upgrades.<BR>
<BR>
Nick<BR>
+++<BR>
(It's one of the wierdest compatibility issues I've seen, but Acrobat<BR>
Viewer3 (wot I've got) just seems to fall over sometimes when trying to view<BR>
Acrobat 4-created files. Anyone any idea why?)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2000 16:07:12 +0100<BR>
From: "Nick Bradbeer" <nickb@ndirect.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller is the #1 RPG, but only barely...<BR>
<BR>
>I alone am roughly 10% of the total votes cast, although I spread them<BR>
among<BR>
>Trav, GURPS, and Ars Magica. (Until they imposed this new ID thing, my<BR>
>scripts were casting ~75 votes a day for my benificiary of the moment<BR>
>through a whole bunch of web anonymizing services.)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Err....without sounding too incredulous, can I ask why you bothered?<BR>
<BR>
NB<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2000 12:24:35 +0100<BR>
From: Postmark Design Bureau <postmark.design@btinternet.com><BR>
Subject: Re: WANTED: GT Size Specs for Common Small Ships<BR>
<BR>
Dalton Spence wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> >          *AUXILARY CRAFT*                    *LARGE SHIPS*<BR>
> <BR>
> > Rampart and Iramda class Fighters   Sulieman 100-ton Scout/Courier<BR>
> > 10-ton Launch and Lifeboat          Beowulf 200-ton Free Trader<BR>
> > 20-ton Gig                          Empress Marva 200-ton Far Trader<BR>
> > 30-ton Ship's Boat                  Vanderbilt 200-ton Yacht<BR>
> > 40-ton Fuel Skimmer                 Lady of Shallot 200-ton Yacht<BR>
> > 40-ton Pinnace                      Animal 200-ton Safari Ship<BR>
> > 50-ton Modular Cutter (and modules) Dragon 400-ton SDB<BR>
> > 100-ton Orbital Shuttle             Akkigish 400-ton Merchant<BR>
> > 100-ton Interplanetary Shuttle<BR>
<BR>
I can't believe that no one replied to this...<BR>
<BR>
I can't find all the values but here are those that I have.<BR>
<BR>
              len    wid   hgt     vol   disp  source<BR>
Iramda         7.4   3.0                       SOM<BR>
Rampart IV     8.1   4.3   2.7      94         Challenge 27<BR>
Rampart V      9.3   5.7   2.3     121         Challenge 27<BR>
Launch (10t)  15.6   4.5   5.1     358    140  SOM<BR>
Launch (20t)  15.9   4.5   4.5     322    280  CT supp 7<BR>
Ship's Boat   27.3   4.5   4.5     553    420  CT supp 7<BR>
Pinnace       27.3  15.6   5.0   2,129    560  CT supp 7<BR>
Cutter        30.3*  6.0   6.0   1,091    700  CT supp 7<BR>
(module)      15.6   6.0   6.0     562    420  CT supp 7<BR>
Shuttle (95t) 28.1   5.2                1,330  SOM<BR>
Sulieman      37.5  24.0   7.5   6,750  1,400  CT supp 7<BR>
X-boat        22.0  10.0  10.0   2,200  1,400  CT supp 7<BR>
Free Trader   50.4  31.6  12.2  19,430  2,800  SOM<BR>
Far Trader    49.3  28.5   8.7  12,224  2,800  CT supp 7<BR>
Animal        28.9  10.4                2,800  SOM<BR>
Dragon        51.3  20.7  10.4  11,044  5,600  CT supp 7<BR>
Labship       67.4  67.4  22.0  99,941  5,600  SOM<BR>
Subbie        46.5  32.0# 10.0  14,880  5,600  CT supp 7<BR>
*length includes module<BR>
#body 15m, wingspan 32m<BR>
<BR>
Note that any ship that rests on the ground on legs or wheels will be higher <BR>
than indicated but I assume that the additional space required deals with<BR>
this.<BR>
<BR>
Also the heights of the small ships in Supp 7 are from SOM. Small ships<BR>
and sizes for SOM are by measuring the plans.<BR>
There are lengths in TNE but no other dimensions and the lengths disagree<BR>
with the plans.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Phil Kitching, http://www.btinternet.com/~salvo<BR>
Postmark Design Bureau, Laser Communications Division<BR>
"For when your message must get through"<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2000 07:40:30 -0400<BR>
From: "Thom Harris" <thomharr@mediaone.net><BR>
Subject: Re: re Rugby<BR>
<BR>
You ought to live in/near Boston, the fans are still fighting over that<BR>
trade at the local bars! I try to attend 4 to 5 games a year and I swear, at<BR>
every game I've ever been to, fans are talking about it in the restrooms and<BR>
the lines for the souvenir items.<BR>
<BR>
Thom <yes I am a Red Sox fan AND I join in those discussions/whining<BR>
sessions> Harris<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Sent: Saturday, April 08, 2000 9:29 AM<BR>
Subject: Re: re Rugby<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> At 03:29 AM 4/8/2000 -0400, you wrote:<BR>
><BR>
> The Vilani would love baseball.  It's all tradition and lore.<BR>
><BR>
> How hidebound is baseball?  The bar Kirsten and I frequent is filled with<BR>
> Redsox fans, and they still argue about trading Babe Ruth seventy years<BR>
ago!<BR>
><BR>
> Douglas E. Berry<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2000 03:45:02 -0800<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: The Ludowick Gambit <longish><BR>
<BR>
Ingo Heinscher <Hiroshi.Estigarribia@gmx.de> wrote<BR>
<BR>
> >> This opens potential for a TU with an "misjump xboat network" or M-boat<BR>
> >> network if you will. At least the Archdukes and the Emperor will be linked<BR>
<BR>
> >There's a *much* simpler explanation.<BR>
> >The rolls are for *accidental* misjumps. For some reason, *deliberate*<BR>
> >misjumps always result in the disappearance of the ship. They are<BR>
> >*presumed* destroyed, but no one really knows.<BR>
<BR>
> Well, this might an explanation, but then one could ask: What is the<BR>
> difference between a deliberate misjump and an accidental misjump? I mean,<BR>
> wouldn't it be enough to keep logs of everything that happens during jump<BR>
> preparation etc. and when you experience a misjump, follow the log as an<BR>
> instruction for a new jump?<BR>
> IMHO stating "It can't work because some reason prevents it" is not very<BR>
> much SF-like. It fits for a Fantasy world with magic and all, but the OTU?<BR>
> No, IMHO.<BR>
<BR>
The Traveller universe does have magic they simply call it<BR>
'psionics' and 'Ancient technology'.<BR>
<BR>
"The reason that all deliberate misjumps fail is that the jumpspace<BR>
demons, er psionic Ancient pseudo biological robots, in the <BR>
shape of Byakh, er Droyne, read the minds of all who enter <BR>
jump space. Any travelers who dare to threaten the primacy <BR>
of their unholy master Hastu, er Yaskodray, by attempting to <BR>
improve jump technology must die by their hands (and fangs, <BR>
and claws, and blood drain, and psionics).<BR>
<BR>
Why do you think that the Vilani remained stuck at TL 11 for<BR>
5,000 years or so? They had not properly learned to satiate<BR>
Arioc, er Yaskodray's need for souls with the blood of player<BR>
characters. To get the souls he needs for his hellish version<BR>
of immortality the Eternal Empero, er Yaskodray, has his minions<BR>
intercept ships in jump space and bring them back to his home<BR>
at R'lye, er pocket universe near Regina."<BR>
<BR>
Text found written in human blood on the inside walls of<BR>
a house on Regina. The occupent, Dr Rishiraharadanaara Mumikaman,<BR>
was under round the clock surveilance by IMOJ on suspicion<BR>
of activities in violation of The Imperial Official Secrets <BR>
Act when he suddenly vanished from their IR scan of his home. <BR>
At the exact moment Dr Rishiraharadanaara vanished every<BR>
NAS within 5km, including two that were turned off at the <BR>
time, burned itself out and was destroyed, almost as if the <BR>
neural patterns it encountered were too alien for them<BR>
to handle....<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2000 03:53:14 -0800<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Fuel cells<BR>
<BR>
shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson) wrote<BR>
<BR>
> >shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
> >And don't even *think* about trying to tell me that the rules don't say<BR>
> >anything about it. They don't say that internal combustion engines need<BR>
> >air either!<BR>
<BR>
>  (smug/) Striker covered the above for CT (/smug)<BR>
<BR>
Heretic.<BR>
<BR>
Striker states that "These rules may be used in conjunction<BR>
with Traveller or by themselves; no familiarity with Traveller<BR>
is required." [Striker Book 1 page 4]<BR>
<BR>
For daring to suggest that any gaming product can be used without <BR>
reference to Traveller the designers of Striker, and their<BR>
blasphemous minion Mr. Hudson, must be dealt with. Who will<BR>
join me in declaring a fatwah against them?<BR>
<BR>
There is no game but Traveller, and Mega Traveller (with errata)<BR>
is its product.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2275<BR>
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Traveller-digest       Sunday, April 9 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2276<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: GT Navy<BR>
Re: Astronomy in the 57th Century<BR>
Re: Astronomy in the 57th Century<BR>
Re: Website<BR>
Re: RS<BR>
Re: TL disparities in the OTU<BR>
Ministry of Standards<BR>
Basic Economics (was Re: Astronomy in the 57th Century)<BR>
Re: Astronomy in the 57th Century<BR>
Trans-shipping Costs (was Re: Astronomy in the 57th Century)<BR>
Planet III Software<BR>
Re: Planet III Software<BR>
Re: re Rugby<BR>
Re: Idle Traveller Musings<BR>
Vilani Name Generator<BR>
Hi-tech/Low-tech<BR>
Fuel cells<BR>
Re: Astronomy in the 57th Century<BR>
Re: Smart weapons<BR>
Re: The Ludowick Gambit <longish><BR>
Re: Astronomy in the 57th Century<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 10:16:47 +1000<BR>
From: "Karen and Michael Hughes" <kmhughes@dynamite.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re: GT Navy<BR>
<BR>
> ><< Is GT:IN to be written again or is this just a leftover from earlier<BR>
> days?<BR>
> > >><BR>
> ><BR>
> >We are looking for a completely new manuscript.<BR>
><BR>
> Since I'm not a pyramid or JTAS subscriber, I have to ask: What was wrong<BR>
> with the first draft? Anything that people who think about thinking about<BR>
> making their own proposal :) should keep in mind?<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
Sorry I've forgotten who I snipped.<BR>
<BR>
Anyhoo, Clay Bush wrote up an awesome first draft for MT back in 91 - which<BR>
I found on the web whilst trawling. Does anyone know if he's still<BR>
Travelling? Maybe he'd want a crack at it.<BR>
<BR>
Michael<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2000 13:12:34 +0100<BR>
From: "Nick Bradbeer" <nickb@ndirect.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: Astronomy in the 57th Century<BR>
<BR>
>You still miss the point. They will not be "cargo containers with a<BR>
>single battery inside. Since they'll be custom units anyway, the<BR>
>*batteries* will be the size and shape of a cargo module, with<BR>
>apropriate surface features (lock on points for cargo handling gear,<BR>
>for example).<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Chiming in as an engineer here, if I was designing the batteries I'd<BR>
personally build them with a very light shell that fits snugly inside a<BR>
shipping container. Since a battery that big is really expensive, it makes<BR>
sense to protect it with a nice cheap outer shell that you can easily<BR>
replace at low cost if a cargo handler accidentally bangs it a bit hard or<BR>
something. Easier than sending the whole unit back to the manufacturer for a<BR>
rebuild.<BR>
<BR>
Nick<BR>
+++<BR>
Any sufficiently reliable magic is indistinguisahable from technology.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2000 13:15:10 +0100<BR>
From: "Nick Bradbeer" <nickb@ndirect.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: Astronomy in the 57th Century<BR>
<BR>
>The rules model only a subset of reality. They can not cover everything -<BR>
>they can only provide guidelines.  The blanks, the absences, are there to<BR>
be<BR>
>filled in by the referee (and even what is written, changed) to make it a<BR>
more<BR>
>real and enjoyable game for the participants.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
In terms of how I'd use them in a game, I'd agree entirely. The rules tend<BR>
to get a bit mangled IMTU.<BR>
<BR>
But if we're having an arg^H^H^H discussion about something here on the<BR>
list, we need a single fixed frame of reference that we can all agree on,<BR>
and since the real world and the rules diverge on a lot of issues, we have<BR>
to use the published rules. It is, after all, their universe we're arguing<BR>
about, not our own.<BR>
<BR>
Nick<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2000 12:39:40 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Website<BR>
<BR>
At 12:32 -0400 8/4/00, Volker Greimann <volker@greimann.de> wrote:<BR>
>At 08:34 07.04.00, you wrote:<BR>
> >In beta....<BR>
> >http://www.core.org.uk/<BR>
>It might be just me, but it seems quite slow!<BR>
<BR>
It should be significantly faster than the BITS site as it is built <BR>
around tables and is graphics light..<BR>
<BR>
Speed has always seemed better from the times I've hit it on line.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2000 12:37:51 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Re: RS<BR>
<BR>
At 12:32 -0400 8/4/00, "Chauncey Smith" <csmith@ICDC.com> wrote:<BR>
>Just to add to this the fact that they are OOP and collector sales for over<BR>
>20 USD per book and printing and author fees are paid. everything from the<BR>
>10k books  is just gravy. It would seem to me that he would make his money<BR>
>by seeing that this stuff still has value and reprinting them himself and<BR>
>joining the club on the TML.<BR>
<BR>
Printing fees aren't paid. Authors, yes. In some cases.<BR>
<BR>
He can't reprint without Marc Miller's permission as it would violate <BR>
the Traveller trademark owned by FarFuture and he has no Traveller <BR>
License.<BR>
<BR>
>With the GURPS release of traveller there is a lot of new blood in our<BR>
>little click that would love to speak our language and take advantage of<BR>
>something I've called before our " Gaming Technology". I can imagine the<BR>
>impact of the World builders handbook in the hands of a bunch of GURPs<BR>
>players. Even the 101 books. The racial books will pay off in spades auction<BR>
>prices for them is over 40 bucks a piece. sell remain stock at 20 bucks each<BR>
>and a smooth 200k  + you no longer have to pay to warehouse the books.<BR>
<BR>
I doubt that there is any remaining stock because I suspect that <BR>
there is nothing to stop it going into the distribution chain at the <BR>
moment?  The 10000 book figure I quoted was not a 'DGP remaining <BR>
stock figure', rather a figure out of the air for a print run. And if <BR>
you are serious about selling into the distribution chain at $20 a <BR>
piece I think that you are over estimating the margins that the OEM <BR>
makes.<BR>
<BR>
BTW, when you mention 101 Books I assume that you are talking about <BR>
101 Vehicles and 101 Robots, not 101 Plots, Cargos, Rendezvous, <BR>
Travellers, Religions, Governments and Lifeforms?<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2000 09:00:46 -0400<BR>
From: "J-Man" <j-man@iname.com><BR>
Subject: Re: TL disparities in the OTU<BR>
<BR>
Are there any commercial agencies that will 'stamp' your CDRs for a<BR>
reasonable fee?  Aside from this, what would you consider to be the most<BR>
reliable way to backup data for years?<BR>
___________________________________________________________<BR>
 J-Man<BR>
 ICQ# 2843475<BR>
 New Hampshire - U.S.A.<BR>
 Email : j-man@iname.com<BR>
 Home Page : http://www.gocsystems.com/<BR>
___________________________________________________________<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 11:58:50 +1000<BR>
From: "Karen and Michael Hughes" <kmhughes@dynamite.com.au><BR>
Subject: Ministry of Standards<BR>
<BR>
With the rise (I assume) of big nasty computers which could create images<BR>
indistinguishable from the real thing (ie holo movies where the actors are<BR>
computer created), would the Ministry of Standards or Trading Standards<BR>
Bureau be responsible for certifing holo-products as containing 'real<BR>
actors'?<BR>
<BR>
I have this image of Pornography Police from the Standards Bureau doing a<BR>
raid on a warehouse containing counterfit 'real actor' skin flicks.<BR>
<BR>
BTW The reason this came about is that I have a player in my game whose<BR>
character is a former exotic dancer (later Marine Spec Forces).<BR>
<BR>
Michael<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2000 06:14:28 -0800<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Basic Economics (was Re: Astronomy in the 57th Century)<BR>
<BR>
shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) wrote<BR>
<BR>
> > The absence of rules for the cost and time requirements for <BR>
> > moving cargo from the ship to the destination is an official<BR>
> > declaration that for the purposes of the game they don't matter.<BR>
<BR>
> I never said it *cost* more. I said it was "more trouble" or "more<BR>
> effort". *Not* the same thing. And not something the players normally<BR>
> have to deal with.<BR>
<BR>
People usually get paid for their work (i.e. trouble or effort). <BR>
If they have to do more work they want more compensation. If <BR>
they do not get more compensation they are more likely to quit.<BR>
An observatory with that runs on batteries will have to buy a<BR>
cargo robot to move them, pay staff top move them, pay the<BR>
shippers more for delivery, or the like. Most people are reluctant<BR>
to engage in manual labor for free unless you can dupe them <BR>
into thinking they are having fun, improving their social<BR>
status and/or impressing potential mates. I find it unlikely that<BR>
moving cargo be able to do this. Therefore I think it will<BR>
have to be paid for. I suspect that it will be done by a<BR>
dumbbot cargo robot supervised by the observatory's shipping<BR>
clerk/maintenance person but buying a bot is still a cost.<BR>
<BR>
> Who said anything about a "specialized container ship"?<BR>
> To use your own logic, demountable tanks cost money and cut cargo<BR>
> capacity. So if there is a "standard" design that can do two J-1s<BR>
> without refueling, and has the requisite cargo capacity, *that* is what<BR>
> will be used. <BR>
<BR>
Yes they will. However given that few if any traveller ship<BR>
designs come with extra fuel this suggests to me that ship<BR>
designs with extra fuel are uncommon. This implies that there<BR>
may not be a standard (i.e. cheaper due to class discounts)<BR>
small merchant design that is built for 2 jump 1's. While the <BR>
rules state that identical ships in a class cost 80% of <BR>
that of the first ship (thus the 2nd ship is cheaper) I am <BR>
not so sure that the first ship with fuel for 2 jump 1's will<BR>
be built in the first place. The first ship in any class is <BR>
competing with every other ship that has already been built.<BR>
Since it is cheaper to take a regular jump 1 ship and put extra <BR>
tanks in it than to design a ship with fuel for 2 jump 1's<BR>
this seems more likely to me (your mileage may vary).<BR>
<BR>
Given that a jump 2 400 ton ship will cost MCr 12 more and<BR>
have 4 tons less space for other components than its jump 1<BR>
counterpart it is not worthwhile to use a Jump 2+ ship for <BR>
this run.<BR>
<BR>
> > The rules are not silent about these matters. The rules list<BR>
> > costs that players must pay and things players must do to<BR>
> > run a merchant ship. Anything that is not on that list they <BR>
> > don't have to pay.<BR>
> <BR>
> Not true. Refs can and do add extra costs when they feel like it.<BR>
> Usually things like "special handling fees" some port wants. <BR>
<BR>
Of course refs can add extra costs when they want to. These<BR>
fees are covered under 'Berthing Costs' in most sets of<BR>
Traveller rules. "Berthing costs. Landing fees, handling fees,<BR>
facilities usage charges, and other starport fees are a common <BR>
practice." [CT Book 2 Starships p. 8] IMTU since the rules do<BR>
not state that such fee's vary based on the presence or absence<BR>
of cargo (much less the difficulty of handling said cargo) I<BR>
tend to treat these as fixed costs per ship, per DT, or the<BR>
like. IMTU a world that charges a 'handling fee' is really<BR>
simply taxing off worlders in one of the few ways the Imperium<BR>
will let them get away with not making characters pay for the<BR>
actual cost of dealing with the freight they are importing.<BR>
You may choose to do it differently but charging players<BR>
freight handling charges based on the logical and reasonable<BR>
costs to the starport of transshipping that cargo is anathema<BR>
to the distinctive look and feel of the Traveller economic<BR>
rules (not that said rules are not broken, but that's another<BR>
issue anyway.)<BR>
<BR>
> > I'd set it up whichever way was the cheapest and batteries are<BR>
> > cheaper. In a role playing game rules exist to model a<BR>
> > reality the reality that the writers of Traveller have<BR>
> > chosen to model is one in which these costs do not matter. If<BR>
> > you disagree take it up with them, not with me.<BR>
> <BR>
> Again, "inconvenience" and "monetary cost" are *not* synonymous. Things<BR>
> that are cheap can frequently be *very* inconvenient. Which is why<BR>
> you'll find a lot of real world setups that *didn't* use the cheapest<BR>
> solution, simply because it's such a hassle.<BR>
<BR>
Cost is not equal to outlay in Cr, inconvenience is a cost, if<BR>
you do your accounting properly you can calculate this cost.<BR>
<BR>
"Regardless of the pronouncements of political, moral, or<BR>
cultural leaders _every_ incident in this universe takes<BR>
place with the specific intention to gain economic advantage...<BR>
the foundation of all actions is economics." [T4 "The Foundations<BR>
of the Traveller Universe" p. 7].<BR>
<BR>
People do not willing undergo inconvenience without the<BR>
belief that they will derive some form of benefit from it<BR>
This benefit may be economic, hedonic, social/biological (high <BR>
status men attract more women & have better reproductive odds), <BR>
or health related. Any act which is purportedly motivated <BR>
by politics, philosophy, culture, or religion is  really<BR>
motivated by economic in the above description of the official <BR>
Traveller universe written by Marc Miller. If you disagree<BR>
then you should, IMHO, take it up with him, not me.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2000 06:38:03 -0800<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Astronomy in the 57th Century<BR>
<BR>
Edward Swatschek <traveller@bitslayer.net> wrote<BR>
<BR>
> Peter Newman wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> > in the game world anything left out of the rules<BR>
> > must (until errataed otherwise) be assumed to have been deliberately<BR>
> > left out because the designer choose not to model that part<BR>
> > of reality in the game universe.<BR>
> > The absence of rules for the cost and time requirements for <BR>
> > moving cargo from the ship to the destination is an official<BR>
> > declaration that for the purposes of the game they don't matter.<BR>
> > The Traveller rules sets are models of reality. Any expense<BR>
> > left out of rules is an expense PC's do not have to pay. It<BR>
> > would be illogical to make NPC's pay it. Therefore we not<BR>
> > only can but should ignore them in our discussions.<BR>
<BR>
> I have a hard time imagining running or playing in a universe straightjacketed<BR>
> by the above philosophy.<BR>
> The rules model only a subset of reality. They can not cover everything -<BR>
> they can only provide guidelines. <BR>
<BR>
Then they would be called guidelines, not rules. Any costs<BR>
of starship operation that were left out of the Traveller<BR>
economic rules must be presumed to have deliberately been<BR>
left out for playability. Players must be free to ruthlessly<BR>
exploit opportunities for profit that the rules give them.<BR>
Playing a greedy player is not necessarily munchkinism, it<BR>
may be good role playing of a greedy or ambitious character.<BR>
Most of the characters I have played, like most of the people<BR>
I have known, have had some varying degree of interest in money <BR>
and material rewards.<BR>
<BR>
> The blanks, the absences, are there to be<BR>
> filled in by the referee (and even what is written, changed) <BR>
> to make it a more real and enjoyable game for the participants.<BR>
<BR>
A real and enjoyable role playing (as opposed to hack and slash) <BR>
game (at least to me, YMMV) comes from the ability of the players<BR>
to pretend to believe that their charecters are people living <BR>
in a real universe. Inconsistent rules destroy, or at least injure, <BR>
the willing suspension of disbelief that the players need for<BR>
this. While I have had fun playing charecters under badly<BR>
written systems (including a version of Traveller which shall<BR>
avoid nameless to avoid a flame war) it is less likely that<BR>
good play will occur where rules are bad. Good rules do not<BR>
have to be long or complicated but they ought to be clear and<BR>
self consistent (unless the rules model a fantasy world that<BR>
is itself inconsistent).<BR>
<BR>
If a game has poor rules a Referee ought to fix them ahead of<BR>
time. If a game has good rules a Referee ought to stick to<BR>
them. A referee must have the power to change the rules<BR>
as he sees fit but he _ought_ not to use it very often. Unless<BR>
a Referee decides that a rule is broken he should stick to <BR>
the rules used earlier for consistency. The rules exist so that<BR>
players can use them to model the characters attempts to<BR>
complete various actions (tasks, to hit rolls, skill rolls,<BR>
powers check, whatever). If it is a simple task for a<BR>
PC to shoot an unsuspecting NPC in the back at point blank<BR>
range yesterday then (in a realistic rather than cinematic<BR>
universe) it should be a simple task for an PC to shoot an<BR>
unsuspecting NPC in the back at point blank range today (or <BR>
for an NPC to shoot a PC unless the NPC graduated from the <BR>
Imperial Storm Trooper Marksmanship Academy).<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2000 19:12:47 -0400<BR>
From: Walt Smith <smithw@hartwick.edu><BR>
Subject: Trans-shipping Costs (was Re: Astronomy in the 57th Century)<BR>
<BR>
Peter Newman wrote:<BR>
>Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
>> This is at least the third time you've used this sort of logic. So I'm<BR>
>> going to tell you this for the last time:<BR>
> >Failure of the rules to mention something does *not* mean that it is<BR>
> >not the way things are. <BR>
><BR>
>Of course it does. <BR>
><BR>
>The rules do in fact mention this. If you look under the<BR>
>'Starship Expenses' section of most any Traveller rules set<BR>
>you will see the starship expenses they list. The cost of<BR>
>transshipping cargo is not on this list. The absence of the<BR>
>expense required to transship bulky cargo _is_ an official<BR>
>canonical statement that such expenses do not exist. If they<BR>
>did exist then they would be on the expense list and players<BR>
>would have to worry about paying them.<BR>
<BR>
That's because the expense rules are written for ship owners, not<BR>
for interstellar trading companies or business concerns who need to<BR>
ship things.<BR>
<BR>
A Traveller Free Trader captain contracts to move the cargo from one<BR>
star system to another. It's the cargo owner's job to get the cargo to<BR>
the ship, and the cargo reciever's job to get the cargo from the ship.<BR>
The trans-shipping fees are paid, just not by the starship captain.<BR>
<BR>
Take a look at expenses to shuttle cargo & passengers to/from orbit.<BR>
That's a trans-shipping cost, that probably includes the cost of loading<BR>
or unloading the shuttle. I'm sure that's not the only possible one.<BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2000 16:27:16 +0100<BR>
From: "Nick Bradbeer" <nickb@ndirect.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Planet III Software<BR>
<BR>
ISTR a post to the effect that Planet III released their Traveller Navigator<BR>
software into the public domain. However, I can't seem to find the software<BR>
available anywhere on the web. Does anybody know anything about this? Does<BR>
anybody know where it's possible to find it?<BR>
<BR>
Nick<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2000 08:37:02<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Planet III Software<BR>
<BR>
At 04:27 PM 4/9/2000 +0100, you wrote:<BR>
>ISTR a post to the effect that Planet III released their Traveller Navigator<BR>
>software into the public domain. However, I can't seem to find the software<BR>
>available anywhere on the web. Does anybody know anything about this? Does<BR>
>anybody know where it's possible to find it?<BR>
<BR>
All the links are dead, and the gentleman seems to have moved.  I think<BR>
it's dead Jim.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2000 08:43:33<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: re Rugby<BR>
<BR>
At 07:40 AM 4/9/2000 -0400, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Thom <yes I am a Red Sox fan AND I join in those discussions/whining<BR>
>sessions> Harris<BR>
<BR>
Buckner! Buckner! Buckner!<BR>
<BR>
Go Giants!<BR>
<BR>
ObTrav: Picture the rivalries that might spring up between worlds, similar<BR>
to the intense loathing and hatred we of the God's Own City, San Francisco<BR>
feel for the poor souls trapped in the mysterious, smog shroud wasteland of<BR>
Los Angeles.<BR>
<BR>
(Why are we we God's City?  We are named after St. Francis.  They are named<BR>
Lost Angels.  'nuff said.)<BR>
<BR>
Imagine carry a group of gravball rowdies to a subsector championship<BR>
tournament.  Imagine carrying rowdies from competing teams.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas "Penguin Boy" Berry  gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
  http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
"I am the penguin bold! We sailed the sea, to tringalee,<BR>
in search of spanish gold" - The Magic Pudding - Norman Lindsay<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2000 12:02:47 EDT<BR>
From: Damage169@cs.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Idle Traveller Musings<BR>
<BR>
Steve Daniels and Bloo write:<BR>
<BR>
> > I'm bored, so I'm just going to throw a few things out thar that are Ob <BR>
> Trav<BR>
>  ><BR>
>  > 1) Has anyone GMed Norris? If so, how did they play him? As an M from <BR>
> James<BR>
>  > Bond type figure? As a dynamic varied personality? Robotically and only <BR>
> for<BR>
>  > plot purposes? Any quirks that I should throw in should I bring him up to<BR>
>  > the plate?<BR>
>  <BR>
>  Look at that hair.  I picture him a bit like Teddy Roosevelt, but<BR>
>  maybe with a Scottish accent.<BR>
>  <BR>
>  bloo<BR>
>  <BR>
<BR>
Maybe Teddy Roosevelt crossed with Mark Twain (look at the mustache). I can <BR>
definitely see Norris taking down debate opponents with Twain's incredibly <BR>
sarcastic wit.<BR>
<BR>
Doug G<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2000 09:24:30<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Vilani Name Generator<BR>
<BR>
Is now up at:<BR>
<BR>
http://tribble.dreamhost.com/vilani.html<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2000 12:47:51 EDT<BR>
From: Damage169@cs.com<BR>
Subject: Hi-tech/Low-tech<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 4/9/00 6:57:43 AM Central Daylight Time, <BR>
owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
> Actually, theses days a lot of archival data is printed *directly* to<BR>
>  microfilm. COM (Computer Output Microfilm/Microfiche) units achieve<BR>
>  truly unreal "page rates" even for mainframe gear. <BR>
>  <BR>
>  I assume they are essentially a high res laser "printhead" writing<BR>
>  directly to the film. <BR>
>  <BR>
>  > Hopefully, the 3i will have a better solution. Like eproms, maybe, in<BR>
>  > ascii? <GD&R)<BR>
>  <BR>
>  COM is a nice mix of high tek/low tek. You use very high tek to create<BR>
>  it, but it is readable with very low tek.<BR>
>  <BR>
<BR>
ObTrav: Have a "library" of technical manuals/journals, especially a 'history <BR>
of technology' series, from a high-technology culture copied into this form <BR>
and then either sold or lost on a low-tech world, but one with enough <BR>
technology for microfilm readers (early TL 6). Instant tech boost start. <BR>
<BR>
ObTrav: A spy is known to have stolen key information and is trying to make <BR>
his escape, but his actual identity is unknown (of course). The authorities, <BR>
concentrating on high-tech espionage and data, may not even consider looking <BR>
at such 'obviously' low-tech stuff as microfilm. The 'archaeologist' with his <BR>
cargo of recovered TL 6 Terran artifacts goes through the pickets; the <BR>
computer salesman from Vland with his cargo of computer memory modules gets <BR>
turned inside out.<BR>
<BR>
Doug G.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2000 09:03:18 -0700<BR>
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)<BR>
Subject: Fuel cells<BR>
<BR>
>From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
>Subject: Re: Fuel cells<BR>
... They don't say that internal combustion engines need air either!<BR>
><BR>
>>  (smug/) Striker covered the above for CT (/smug)<BR>
><BR>
>Heretic.<BR>
><BR>
>Striker states that "These rules may be used in conjunction<BR>
>with Traveller or by themselves; no familiarity with Traveller<BR>
>is required." [Striker Book 1 page 4]<BR>
...<BR>
>There is no game but Traveller, and Mega Traveller (with errata)<BR>
>is its product.<BR>
<BR>
  Nice try, revisionist scum (although I can see why MT players need to<BR>
be revisionists - they never got it close to right the first time!), as<BR>
the _box_ itself clearly specifies (eleven times! - five on the top lid<BR>
and six times on the bottom) that it's an optional (Classic) _Traveller_<BR>
rules expansion!<BR>
<BR>
  Naturally, the correct interpretation of "no familiarity with Traveller<BR>
is required" is that Striker (I) is itself theologically sound throughout,<BR>
and that proper understanding of the Way & the Imperium can be achieved<BR>
through its study (supplements are, however, recommended).<BR>
<BR>
  Only a profoundly debased heretic could imagine "MT" as being doctrinally<BR>
sound - heck, is it even "Traveller"?                           :><BR>
<BR>
        Steven Hudson <BR>
<BR>
The CT Creed: "There is no Game but Traveller, and High Guard is its Product"<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2000 09:18:42 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Astronomy in the 57th Century<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>>You still miss the point. They will not be "cargo containers with a<BR>
>>single battery inside. Since they'll be custom units anyway, the<BR>
>>*batteries* will be the size and shape of a cargo module, with<BR>
>>apropriate surface features (lock on points for cargo handling gear,<BR>
>>for example).<BR>
><BR>
> Chiming in as an engineer here, if I was designing the batteries I'd<BR>
> personally build them with a very light shell that fits snugly inside a<BR>
> shipping container. Since a battery that big is really expensive, it makes<BR>
> sense to protect it with a nice cheap outer shell that you can easily<BR>
> replace at low cost if a cargo handler accidentally bangs it a bit hard or<BR>
> something. Easier than sending the whole unit back to the manufacturer for a<BR>
> rebuild.<BR>
<BR>
A point. A definite point. But I assume you'd do as I'd be inclined to<BR>
and modify the "shell" to have "access ports" for the "terminals" of<BR>
the battery?<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2000 09:27:52 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Smart weapons<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
> On Behalf Of Leonard Erickson<BR>
>> A friend sent me this. I thought it is appropriate as an example of the<BR>
>> things that can "go wrong" with early "smart weapons". :-)<BR>
><BR>
> BTW, S&W are behind the times, an Australian gun manufacturer is already in<BR>
> production with a "smart" pistol.<BR>
><BR>
> It won't fire unless the user is wearing an elecronic key currently mounted<BR>
> in a ring, and it fires selectable amounts of ammunition at very high ROF<BR>
> when you squeeze the trigger. The entire action is electronic, and they are<BR>
> already getting contracts with US law enforcement and military.<BR>
<BR>
I remember hearing about that gun a couple years back. <BR>
<BR>
One thing that I'm wondering is just how easy it is to *jam* that ring.<BR>
Find out the frequency it runs on, and build a black box that puts out<BR>
enough "noise" to keep the gun from getting a positive ID on the ring. <BR>
<BR>
The government would *love* a gun that could be jammed that way. In<BR>
case of insurrection, turn on the jammer, and send out your troops with<BR>
guns that don't have that kind of interlock (or that have different<BR>
kind). <BR>
<BR>
I fully expect that before this sort of "safety feature" even becomes<BR>
widespread we'll see a lawsuit when someone dies because they<BR>
*couldn't* get the gun to fire.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2000 09:42:32 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: The Ludowick Gambit <longish><BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> At 12:27 08.04.00 PST, Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
><BR>
> [snip]<BR>
>>> This opens potential for a TU with an "misjump xboat network" or M-boat<BR>
>>> network if you will. At least the Archdukes and the Emperor will be linked<BR>
>>> by such...<BR>
>>><BR>
>>> Hm. This wouldn't change the OTU too much, I'd say, but OTOH, you possibly<BR>
>>> can't keep this network a secret. So many ships showing on at various<BR>
>>> locations, probably a large IISS subdivision with a high mortality rate <BR>
> and<BR>
>>> therefore (probably) a certain esprit de corps among its members... <BR>
>>><BR>
>>> So it must be known to the public IMO.<BR>
>><BR>
>>There's a *much* simpler explanation. It takes care of *all* variants<BR>
>>of this, and helps explain why it takes so long to increase max jump<BR>
>>distance. <BR>
>><BR>
>>The rolls are for *accidental* misjumps. For some reason, *deliberate*<BR>
>>misjumps always result in the disappearance of the ship. They are<BR>
>>*presumed* destroyed, but no one really knows. There's even a theory<BR>
>>that says they wind up making *much* bigger misjumps (say 100 parsec<BR>
>>*minimum*).<BR>
><BR>
> Well, this might an explanation, but then one could ask: What is the<BR>
> difference between a deliberate misjump and an accidental misjump? I mean,<BR>
> wouldn't it be enough to keep logs of everything that happens during jump<BR>
> preparation etc. and when you experience a misjump, follow the log a as an<BR>
> instruction for a new jump?<BR>
<BR>
In which case, *because* you are trying to produce a misjump, you<BR>
disappear and are never heard from again. In other words, there is an<BR>
"observer effect". <BR>
<BR>
> IMHO stating "It can't work because some reason prevents it" is not very<BR>
> much SF-like. It fits for a Fantasy world with magic and all, but the OTU?<BR>
> No, IMHO.<BR>
<BR>
But that's the way *science* works. You can't fly by flapping your<BR>
wings because there's a reason. The reason being the laws of<BR>
aerodynamics. :-)<BR>
<BR>
What sort of "law" may be involved? Quantum Physics. If you are<BR>
"observing" the factors that cause a misjump, then the wave function<BR>
collapses rather than being indeterminate.<BR>
<BR>
Remember, we've got proof that quantum states really and truly *aren't*<BR>
determined until observed. It's not a case (as was at one time put<BR>
forth) that the states are actually already determined before we<BR>
observe them, but just "hidden" from us.<BR>
<BR>
In any case, as I noted, I think this has possibilitiies because having<BR>
the laws of nature preclude (successful) deliberate misjumps makes<BR>
j-drive research harder, and also prevents PCs from trying to get out<BR>
of tight spots with misjumps.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2000 09:17:39 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Astronomy in the 57th Century<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> On Sat, 08 Apr 2000, Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
><BR>
> [...]<BR>
>> So again, FF&S blows it. LOX/LH2 makes a lot of sense in Traveller,<BR>
>> expecially for space installations. You need tankage and handling for<BR>
>> LH2 anyway, and in anything much larger than a ship's boat, LOX is the<BR>
>> best way to store oxygen.<BR>
> [...]<BR>
><BR>
> FF&S specifies that fuel cells burn hydrocarbon distillates or LHyd.<BR>
<BR>
Does it make any mention of them needing an oxygen supply?<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2276<BR>
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Traveller-digest       Sunday, April 9 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2277<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Leonard (was Astronomy in the 57th Century)<BR>
Re: TL disparities in the OTU<BR>
Re: notes on Forine<BR>
Re: Striker miniatures<BR>
Re: Secure storage<BR>
Re: GT Navy - Imperial Naval Handbook<BR>
Re: Planet III Software<BR>
Re: Astronomy in the 57th Century<BR>
Heaven & Earth<BR>
RE: Gencon UK<BR>
Scale in Space<BR>
Re: RS<BR>
re: Basic Economics<BR>
Re: Astronomy in the 57th Century<BR>
[www] 9 Apr 00 - Freelance Traveller Updated<BR>
Re: Vilani Name Generator<BR>
Re: Astronomy in the 57th Century<BR>
Re: Astronomy in the 57th Century<BR>
Re: Basic Economics (was Re: Astronomy in the 57th Century)<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2000 09:57:21 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Leonard (was Astronomy in the 57th Century)<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>> From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
>> Subject: Re: Astronomy in the 57th Century<BR>
>> This is at least the third time you've used this sort of logic. So I'm<BR>
>> going to tell you this for the last time:<BR>
>><BR>
>> Failure of the rules to mention something does *not* mean that it is<BR>
>> not the way things are. And moreover, when the rules and real world<BR>
>> data differ, the real world wins.<BR>
>><BR>
>> If you can't accept this, then please quit wasting my time, as we have<BR>
>> no common ground for discussion.<BR>
><BR>
> Leonard, I dont mind you being a well-informed arrogant sort.<BR>
><BR>
> I dont even mind your excessive use of *s.<BR>
><BR>
> But I do mind the fact that you wont either refer to or, even better,<BR>
> correct the rules that define what is possible in Traveller.<BR>
<BR>
Well, I can't refer to rules I don't own. And from 92 until about 18<BR>
months ago, I was *very* poor. <BR>
<BR>
> Fine, you think FFS screwed up with fuel cells. Propose a new table. Write<BR>
> up how much TL7-15 Fuel Cells should mass, cost, require in fuel(s) and put<BR>
> out in power. Do the same for TL1 - 7 life support. Allow the rest of us to<BR>
> belt on it, build stuff with it, and argue about it.<BR>
<BR>
I *did* do some work with the FF&S2 folks, but we all know what a<BR>
certain nameless company did to *that*. <BR>
<BR>
Also, there's a *big* difference between knowing enough to be able to<BR>
say a table is badly broken and knowing enough to write an *accurate*<BR>
replacement. <BR>
<BR>
> Dont just whine about it. Improve it.<BR>
<BR>
Believe it or not, I *do* have other things to do... :-)<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2000 09:34:26 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: TL disparities in the OTU<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Are there any commercial agencies that will 'stamp' your CDRs for a<BR>
> reasonable fee?<BR>
<BR>
I don't have an exact figure, but from what I know about the process,<BR>
*plus* the talk I heard over on the filk echo regarding minimum<BR>
quantities to make a profit, I'd say this is too expensive. <BR>
<BR>
It costs the same to make a "master" for "pressing" *one* CD as 1000.<BR>
And as I recall the minimum order for CD production is 500 or 1000. At<BR>
around $5 each. Most of that is the cost of the master, plus the cost<BR>
of merely *setting up*, starting, and stopping the "press". <BR>
<BR>
> Aside from this, what would you consider to be the most<BR>
> reliable way to backup data for years?<BR>
<BR>
Well, punched *mylar* tape will last a long time and last a lot of<BR>
reads, but it's got *lousy* storage density (around 64 bits per inch as<BR>
I recall). <g><BR>
<BR>
The reel to reel tapes the big mainframe drives use are available in<BR>
archival quality and you *can* buy drives that'll hook to a PC.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2000 09:51:17 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: notes on Forine<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Both Idot/Savant and Robert made suggestions about my geology <BR>
> of Forine along similar lines.  By reading both your post am right in <BR>
> thinking if I make Forine a young world and bring it much closer to <BR>
> its star than things would make sense?  <BR>
><BR>
> If I do this then I would increase the tempeture, which, should alow <BR>
> for both the molton core and some free floating water if heated by <BR>
> the volcaneo or other raptures, or even the human heat idea right?<BR>
><BR>
> My next question is what will this do to the world's orbital period <BR>
> and rotation.  At 1 AU that should mean a 366 day orbit right?  <BR>
> Rotation should need not change?<BR>
<BR>
Orbital period depends on both the distance from the star AND the<BR>
*mass* of the star. If the star is heavier than Sol, the period will be<BR>
shorter, if it is lighter, the period will be longer.<BR>
<BR>
Looking at a formula here, it looks as if goes by the inverse of the<BR>
square root of the star's mass. So if the star is 4 times as massive,<BR>
the period will be half as long.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2000 10:29:56 -0700<BR>
From: Kristian Miller <travellerne@3rd-imperium.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Striker miniatures<BR>
<BR>
Hi Steve,<BR>
<BR>
> >Next month we start Striker miniatures!<BR>
> <BR>
>   What scale/figures/engagment size are you guys doing? Heck, which<BR>
> version of the Striker rules?<BR>
<BR>
It looks like we are doing the first version of Striker since more of<BR>
our people have played that one.<BR>
<BR>
I'm not sure about the scale of miniatures.  I have some really good<BR>
Traveller miniatures in 6mm, 15mm (the old Martian Metals ones), and<BR>
25mm.  I'll see what everyone has the most of and go from there.  Since<BR>
I'm going to start building some more terrain maybe the group could give<BR>
me some feedback on miniature scale.<BR>
<BR>
Kristian<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2000 13:22:12 EDT<BR>
From: Kagehira@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Secure storage<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 4/8/00 1:15:22 PM Pacific Daylight Time, <BR>
owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
> <BR>
>  >> The next to last line sings the praises of the 'net itself as a "secure"<BR>
>  >> method of storage because "in theory, information on the internet will<BR>
>  last<BR>
>  >> forever."<BR>
>  ><BR>
>  >"Danger Will Robinson! faulty logic approaching." What do these<BR>
>  >people think that the web pages are but information stored on<BR>
>  >computer hard drives?<BR>
>  <BR>
>  Shhh! Don't talk like that. Don't you know that the internet is the <BR>
solution<BR>
>  to all of your problems? :)<BR>
<BR>
Actually there was/is a project underway that is trying to archive all the <BR>
material on the web for future whatever....<BR>
<BR>
Bryan<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2000 14:01:43 EDT<BR>
From: Kagehira@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: GT Navy - Imperial Naval Handbook<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 4/9/00 10:11:06 AM Pacific Daylight Time, <BR>
owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
> Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 10:16:47 +1000<BR>
>  From: "Karen and Michael Hughes" <kmhughes@dynamite.com.au><BR>
>  Subject: Re: GT Navy<BR>
>  <BR>
>  > ><< Is GT:IN to be written again or is this just a leftover from earlier<BR>
>  > days?<BR>
>  > > >><BR>
>  > ><BR>
>  > >We are looking for a completely new manuscript.<BR>
>  ><BR>
>  > Since I'm not a pyramid or JTAS subscriber, I have to ask: What was wrong<BR>
>  > with the first draft? Anything that people who think about thinking about<BR>
>  > making their own proposal :) should keep in mind?<BR>
>  ><BR>
>  ><BR>
>  Sorry I've forgotten who I snipped.<BR>
>  <BR>
>  Anyhoo, Clay Bush wrote up an awesome first draft for MT back in 91 - which<BR>
>  I found on the web whilst trawling. Does anyone know if he's still<BR>
>  Travelling? Maybe he'd want a crack at it.<BR>
>  <BR>
>  Michael<BR>
<BR>
It was on my site. INH was going to be the MT version of the book. I also <BR>
have the mail relating to that project still available and will be included <BR>
on newer versions of the HIWG CD along with some other project attempts.<BR>
<BR>
He's still Traveller, in fact publishing the longest running Traveller <BR>
Fanzine still extant.<BR>
<BR>
I've made a couple of feeble attempts to get him to try and turn in the <BR>
manuscript to SJG, but I don't think he has.<BR>
<BR>
Bryan<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2000 14:05:40 EDT<BR>
From: Kagehira@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Planet III Software<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 4/9/00 10:11:06 AM Pacific Daylight Time, <BR>
owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
> Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2000 16:27:16 +0100<BR>
>  From: "Nick Bradbeer" <nickb@ndirect.co.uk><BR>
>  Subject: Planet III Software<BR>
>  <BR>
>  ISTR a post to the effect that Planet III released their Traveller <BR>
Navigator<BR>
>  software into the public domain. However, I can't seem to find the software<BR>
>  available anywhere on the web. Does anybody know anything about this? Does<BR>
>  anybody know where it's possible to find it?<BR>
>  <BR>
>  Nick<BR>
<BR>
I'll see about getting it up via Downport/HIWG along with some other material <BR>
soon.<BR>
<BR>
Bryan<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2000 11:28:42 -0700<BR>
From: "James W. Lindsay" <jlindsay@home.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Astronomy in the 57th Century<BR>
<BR>
On Sat, 8 Apr 2000 20:53:25 -0700, Edward Swatschek wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> On Sat, 08 Apr 2000, Peter Newman wrote:<BR>
> > <BR>
> > In the real world absence of evidence is not evidence of<BR>
> > absence but in the game world anything left out of the rules<BR>
> > must (until errataed otherwise) be assumed to have been deliberately<BR>
> > left out because the designer choose not to model that part<BR>
> > of reality in the game universe.<BR>
>   [...]<BR>
<BR>
"Must be"?<BR>
<BR>
"Because the designer chose"?<BR>
<BR>
> > The absence of rules for the cost and time requirements for <BR>
> > moving cargo from the ship to the destination is an official<BR>
> > declaration that for the purposes of the game they don't matter.<BR>
>   [...]<BR>
<BR>
"Official declaration"?<BR>
<BR>
> > The Traveller rules sets are models of reality. Any expense<BR>
> > left out of rules is an expense PC's do not have to pay. It<BR>
> > would be illogical to make NPC's pay it. Therefore we not<BR>
> > only can but should ignore them in our discussions. If you <BR>
> > can't accept this, then please quit responding to my posts<BR>
> > in this manner as we have no common ground for discussion.<BR>
<BR>
"Illogical"?<BR>
<BR>
> I have a hard time imagining running or playing in a universe straightjacketed<BR>
> by the above philosophy.<BR>
<BR>
This is where the term "rules lawyer" came from :)<BR>
<BR>
> The rules model only a subset of reality. They can not cover everything -<BR>
> they can only provide guidelines.  The blanks, the absences, are there to be<BR>
> filled in by the referee (and even what is written, changed) to make it a more<BR>
> real and enjoyable game for the participants.<BR>
<BR>
I agree.  With only <300 or so pages, most RPG main rule books simply do<BR>
not have the space to include every single "rule".  An excellent example<BR>
would be equipment tomes that don't include such simple staples as "toilet<BR>
paper" or "bottled water".<BR>
<BR>
To address each of Peter's above points:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
"Must be"... in this case, "must" = "assume"... and we all know the adage<BR>
about "never assuming anything"...  Writers sometimes make mistakes, and<BR>
like I said-- they only have a finite number of pages to fill.  Please<BR>
understand that there is an unwritten rule among game designers (myself<BR>
included, I suppose) that says that "most players have enough common sense<BR>
that you should not have to explain *everything* to them."<BR>
<BR>
"Because the designer chose"... unless you've heard from the author to the<BR>
contrary, you cannot *prove* that something left out was intentionally left<BR>
out by the writer.  Think of it this way: there are numerous crimes that<BR>
can be committed that do not have specific definitions-- or for that<BR>
matter, laws designed to punish those specific crimes.  It is up to the<BR>
judge in such a case to *interpret* the existing law in order to apply it<BR>
to a situation that is not so black & white.  In this case, the judge is a<BR>
referee in an RPG.  In many situations, an RPG referee has *more* freedoms<BR>
than an actual court judge-- barring any god complex.<BR>
<BR>
"Official declaration"... please show me where it "officially" says that<BR>
anything *not* covered in the rules is *intended* to be read that way.  How<BR>
do my PCs take a crap in zero gravity?  There's no skill for it and it<BR>
isn't mentioned in the various zero gravity sections.  Does this mean that<BR>
no task test is necessary because it is such an easy task, that you *can't*<BR>
perform this task (because no specific task is mentioned), or that PCs<BR>
simply *cannot* defecate outside of a gravity well?  By you logic, all<BR>
three are true.<BR>
<BR>
"Illogical"... how can it be logical to claim that something defined as<BR>
only a "model" of reality should adhere to such strict rules such as "if<BR>
something isn't mentioned it simply *must not be*"?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
James W. Lindsay             Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada<BR>
Website: http://members.home.net/jlindsay          ICQ: #7521644<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
Your email has been returned due to insufficient voltage.<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2000 19:32:25 +0100<BR>
From: "Stuart Ferris" <stuart.ferris@virgin.net><BR>
Subject: Heaven & Earth<BR>
<BR>
For anyone not on my Mailing List who is following the progress of my Heaven<BR>
& Earth world building software I am pleased to say that it is nearing<BR>
completion.<BR>
<BR>
The Final Beta of the software has been released to the Members of the WBD<BR>
Mailing List and V1.0.0 of the software should be released sometime during<BR>
the week commencing 17th April 2000.<BR>
<BR>
The official website can be found at:-<BR>
<BR>
http://www.downport.com/wbd/HEAVEN_&_EARTH.htm<BR>
<BR>
Stuart Ferris<BR>
stuart.ferris@virgin.net<BR>
http://freespace.virgin.net/stuart.ferris/index.htm<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 08 Apr 2000 23:09:48 -0700<BR>
From: Keith Johnson <keithalanjohnson@home.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Gencon UK<BR>
<BR>
At 04:11 PM 4/8/00 -0400, you wrote:<BR>
> >> We regularly get British tourists who inquire about driving to Disneyland<BR>
> >> "for the day."  Disneyland is 450 miles, and two mountain ranges, from San<BR>
> >> Francisco.<BR>
> ><BR>
> >Only 450 miles ?<BR>
> >That's a day's drive isn't it ?<BR>
> ><BR>
> >Hell, at an average of 80mph ( is there anyone who travels slower than that<BR>
> >on long distance trips ?) it's, what, under six hours.<BR>
<BR>
It took me a little over ten hours to drive to LA when I was 20 years <BR>
old.  Keep in mind, I was on my way to TJ with friends, so I wasn't exactly <BR>
driving 65. :)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>80? *Average?*  Meet those fun-loving folks in the California Highway Patrol!<BR>
<BR>
More like: Meet your fellow fun-loving Californian sitting in gridlock, <BR>
trying to get out of the Bay Area.  Not to mention the traffic near LA.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
_________________________________________________________<BR>
Rev. Keith Johnson      /\     keith@sjgames.com<BR>
Assistant Webmaster    /()\    keithalanjohnson@home.com<BR>
Steve Jackson Games   /____\   reverendkeith@hotmail.com<BR>
<BR>
  IMTU tm++@ t4+@ tg++$ ru- ge-@ st+ pi+ he+ dr+ hi-@ zh+<BR>
_________________________________________________________ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2000 13:31:18 -0600<BR>
From: Dale Gyles <gyles@mtn-webtech.com><BR>
Subject: Scale in Space<BR>
<BR>
	In Brilliant Lances and Battlerider, the designers set a combat round to<BR>
represent 30 minutes.  In Ct, the combat round was 1000 seconds.  This<BR>
results in a distance scale of 10,000 to 30, 000 kilometers for 1 G thrust.<BR>
	IIRC, they were two articles in Challenge magazine by Dave Nilsen and<BR>
Frank Chadwick on lasers that covered all the engineering & scientific<BR>
difficulties involved due to the long range at which lasers would be fired.<BR>
 They came up with gravitic lenses to overcome the focusing problem.  <BR>
	My question is, why pick such a long timescale?  Is it because of the<BR>
distance at which ships can be detected?  Is it the need to get the 100<BR>
diameter limit to fit on the playing area?  <BR>
<BR>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<BR>
Dale Gyles<BR>
Black Eagle, MT<BR>
gyles@mtn-webtech.com<BR>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2000 00:31:44 -0700<BR>
From: Keith Johnson <keithalanjohnson@home.com><BR>
Subject: Re: RS<BR>
<BR>
At 01:07 PM 4/9/00 -0400, you wrote:<BR>
> >Even the 101 books. The racial books will pay off in spades auction<BR>
> >prices for them is over 40 bucks a piece. sell remain stock at 20 bucks each<BR>
> >and a smooth 200k  + you no longer have to pay to warehouse the books.<BR>
><BR>
>I doubt that there is any remaining stock because I suspect that<BR>
>there is nothing to stop it going into the distribution chain at the<BR>
>moment?  The 10000 book figure I quoted was not a 'DGP remaining<BR>
>stock figure', rather a figure out of the air for a print run.<BR>
<BR>
RPG distributors don't buy ten thousand books at one time.  They aren't <BR>
distributing books out of the kindness of their hearts, rather they are <BR>
buying merchandise from manufacturers and selling it to retailers.  They <BR>
might take a small stack of books and then add it to the list of things <BR>
they are trying to pitch to retailers.  If it sells like hotcakes, they <BR>
might increase the size of their order.  If it doesn't sell<BR>
that well, you will never hear from them again.<BR>
<BR>
I don't think First In had a print run of ten thousand, and distributors <BR>
haven't bought all of our copies yet.  Given the rate it is selling we will <BR>
need to reprint the book, but for right now we have first print run copies <BR>
sitting in Warehouse 23.<BR>
<BR>
All things being equal, I agree with Dom.  If there was a significant <BR>
amount of stock left over, it probably would have gone through the <BR>
distribution chain already.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>And if<BR>
>you are serious about selling into the distribution chain at $20 a<BR>
>piece I think that you are over estimating the margins that the OEM<BR>
>makes.<BR>
<BR>
Exactly.  By the time the retailer and distributor take their cut, your <BR>
customer usually pays double of what you get for the book.  If you sell it <BR>
for $10 to the distributor, then your customer will probably see it for <BR>
$20.  If you sell it for $20, then your customer will see it for $40.<BR>
<BR>
Regardless, the distributor is going to choke when you tell them they <BR>
should buy ten thousand books and hand you $200K because folks on ebay are <BR>
in a feeding frenzy.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
_________________________________________________________<BR>
Rev. Keith Johnson      /\     keith@sjgames.com<BR>
Assistant Webmaster    /()\    keithalanjohnson@home.com<BR>
Steve Jackson Games   /____\   reverendkeith@hotmail.com<BR>
<BR>
  IMTU tm++@ t4+@ tg++$ ru- ge-@ st+ pi+ he+ dr+ hi-@ zh+<BR>
_________________________________________________________ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2000 12:13:06 -0400<BR>
From: Walt Smith <smithw@hartwick.edu><BR>
Subject: re: Basic Economics<BR>
<BR>
Peter Newman wrote:<BR>
>Given that a jump 2 400 ton ship will cost MCr 12 more and<BR>
>have 4 tons less space for other components than its jump 1<BR>
>counterpart it is not worthwhile to use a Jump 2+ ship for <BR>
>this run.<BR>
<BR>
Remember that this run only has to be done once every month<BR>
or less, for about one to two installations per sector. Does it make<BR>
sense to have a dedicated ship class for this? <BR>
<BR>
I think the operators will contract an available ship as needed, which<BR>
will probably (given the fuel needs) be Jump-2. <BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2000 13:02:23 -0400<BR>
From: Walt Smith <smithw@hartwick.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Astronomy in the 57th Century<BR>
<BR>
Peter Newman wrote:<BR>
>Then they would be called guidelines, not rules. <BR>
<BR>
In an RPG, "rule" is synonymous with "guideline".  The only caveat to<BR>
this is when two people have to decide what they're arguing about.  <BR>
<BR>
Peter again:<BR>
>Players must be free to ruthlessly exploit opportunities for profit that the<BR>
>rules give them.<BR>
<BR>
Fair enough. The referee must be free to ruthlessly exploit opportunities<BR>
for bleeding the player's wallets dry that the rules, common sense,<BR>
his campaign setting and his imagination provides.<BR>
<BR>
There is nothing in the rules to cover a rival corp buying up all cargos<BR>
at a certain port, so that the players are left dry no matter what they<BR>
roll on Admin tasks.  This situation has appeared in Traveller-published<BR>
adventures.  There is nothing in the rules to cover labor disputes<BR>
that shut down the loading dock the players are docked at, does this<BR>
curtail the referee from using such a situation?<BR>
<BR>
If I'm playing solitaire Free Trader with the CT trade rules, I can make<BR>
a shipowner into a merchant line owner every time. That's because, IMO,<BR>
the trade rules as written have a built-in bias towards the traders making<BR>
money.  They **need** this bias, since any group of PC's on a trade ship<BR>
will have a gamemaster to deal with - and one shot from a grumpy<BR>
NPC starship can cost these PC's *millions*.<BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2000 17:25:11 -0400<BR>
From: Jeff Zeitlin <jzeitlin@cyburban.com><BR>
Subject: [www] 9 Apr 00 - Freelance Traveller Updated<BR>
<BR>
Freelance Traveller, the Electronic Fan-Supported Traveller<BR>
Resource has posted its most recent update to<BR>
http://come.to/FreelanceTraveller and<BR>
http://www.downport.com/freelancetraveller/Default.htm.  <BR>
<BR>
This update features:<BR>
<BR>
- - Ian Whitchurch brings us The Mire Run, an adventure in the<BR>
  Spinward Marches. Find it in Active Measures. <BR>
<BR>
- - A new section, Lecture Hall and Library, has been opened up<BR>
  under Kurishdam. Some of the articles from At Home, We Do It<BR>
  Like This have been moved. <BR>
<BR>
- - In addition to moving articles into Lecture Hall and Library,<BR>
  we have added An Outline of Jump Physics, excerpted by Ingo<BR>
  Heinscher, and an analysis of tech levels, by Ken Pick. <BR>
<BR>
- - Updated the FAQ (in the Information Center) to reflect recent<BR>
  product information from Steve Jackson Games, Holistic Design,<BR>
  and Cargonaut Press. <BR>
<BR>
- - Ken Pick brings us designs for Supermerchant, Large Scout and<BR>
  Patrol Cruiser variants. Look for them in The Shipyard. <BR>
<BR>
Your questions, comments, and ideas are always welcome at<BR>
Freelance Traveller.  Please write to<BR>
freelancetraveller@yahoo.com with any and all of them, as we are<BR>
in the process of reconfiguring the forms, and they may be<BR>
temporarily disabled.  Freelance Traveller depends on the good<BR>
will of Traveller fans both to visit our site and justify our<BR>
existence, and to write for us, making our existence possible.<BR>
<BR>
Freelance Traveller is mirrored at http://w3.execnet.com/jeffz.<BR>
<BR>
Freelance Traveller wishes to extend its thanks and appreciation<BR>
to The Traveller Downport (http://www.downport.com) and to<BR>
Executive Network Information Systems (http://www.execnet.com)<BR>
for hosting services. Without organizations willing to cooperate<BR>
with Freelance Traveller's ever-growing needs, we would be unable<BR>
to bring you the articles and other resources that have made<BR>
Freelance Traveller one of the premier Traveller sites on the <BR>
'net.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture <BR>
Enterprises, 1977-2000.  Use of the trademark in <BR>
this notice and in the referenced materials is not <BR>
intended to infringe or devalue the trademark.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
Jeff Zeitlin, Editor<BR>
Freelance Traveller - The Electronic Fan-Supported Traveller Resource<BR>
http://come.to/FreelanceTraveller<BR>
http://www.downport.com/freelancetraveller/Default.htm<BR>
freelancetraveller@yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2000 17:48:47 -0400<BR>
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Vilani Name Generator<BR>
<BR>
SWEET!<BR>
<BR>
Will we see a Zhodani one?<BR>
And why stop there?  Aslan?<BR>
Vargr? (Woofruffiruff Barkhowlwoof).<BR>
<BR>
bloo<BR>
<BR>
"Douglas E. Berry" wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Is now up at:<BR>
><BR>
> http://tribble.dreamhost.com/vilani.html<BR>
> --<BR>
><BR>
> Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
> http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2000 22:48:48 +0100<BR>
From: "Nick Bradbeer" <nickb@ndirect.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: Astronomy in the 57th Century<BR>
<BR>
>> FF&S specifies that fuel cells burn hydrocarbon distillates or LHyd.<BR>
>Does it make any mention of them needing an oxygen supply?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Yes it does. I don't have the reference (having left FFS at uni), but<BR>
there's a section on splitting fuel tankage for airbreathing engines (fuel<BR>
and LOX) to allow them to operate in a vacuum or hostile atmosphere.<BR>
<BR>
(c.f. somebody's earlier point about FFS allegedly stating that internal<BR>
combustion engines not needing an air supply).<BR>
<BR>
Nick<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2000 14:20:31 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Astronomy in the 57th Century<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>> I have a hard time imagining running or playing in a universe <BR>
> straightjacketed<BR>
>> by the above philosophy.<BR>
>> The rules model only a subset of reality. They can not cover everything -<BR>
>> they can only provide guidelines. <BR>
><BR>
> Then they would be called guidelines, not rules.<BR>
<BR>
Funny, most RPG rules have a paragraph in them somewhere stating that<BR>
the rules *are* guidelines for the ref, not set in stone.<BR>
<BR>
Also, from page 10 of the Traveller Book:<BR>
<BR>
"Finally, a referee deals with situations that the rules may not cover;<BR>
after all no set of rules can totally define the universe and how it<BR>
works."<BR>
<BR>
> A real and enjoyable role playing (as opposed to hack and slash) <BR>
> game (at least to me, YMMV) comes from the ability of the players<BR>
> to pretend to believe that their charecters are people living <BR>
> in a real universe. Inconsistent rules destroy, or at least injure, <BR>
> the willing suspension of disbelief that the players need for<BR>
> this.<BR>
<BR>
Having costs in addition to the ones listed in the books is only<BR>
inconsistent if they aren't applied consistently. <BR>
<BR>
> If a game has poor rules a Referee ought to fix them ahead of<BR>
> time. If a game has good rules a Referee ought to stick to<BR>
> them. A referee must have the power to change the rules<BR>
> as he sees fit but he _ought_ not to use it very often.<BR>
<BR>
We are talking about *adding details*, not "changing rules". <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2000 14:29:58 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Basic Economics (was Re: Astronomy in the 57th Century)<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>> Who said anything about a "specialized container ship"?<BR>
>> To use your own logic, demountable tanks cost money and cut cargo<BR>
>> capacity. So if there is a "standard" design that can do two J-1s<BR>
>> without refueling, and has the requisite cargo capacity, *that* is what<BR>
>> will be used. <BR>
><BR>
> Yes they will. However given that few if any traveller ship<BR>
> designs come with extra fuel this suggests to me that ship<BR>
> designs with extra fuel are uncommon. This implies that there<BR>
> may not be a standard (i.e. cheaper due to class discounts)<BR>
> small merchant design that is built for 2 jump 1's.<BR>
<BR>
Hold it right there. It implies no such thing. All that it does is show<BR>
that the folks designing the ships in the books (which are frequently<BR>
not even legal designs under the rules!) didn't happen to think of<BR>
drawing up such a ship.<BR>
<BR>
You *absolutely* cannot draw *any* inferences about what sort of ships,<BR>
vehicles or equipment may or may not be "common" in any Traveller<BR>
Universe based on which ones are included in the rules. Those are<BR>
*samples*, and their variety is strictly limited to what the designers<BR>
thought up and felt like including. <BR>
<BR>
Merchants that can do two J-1s are *very* useful in a lot of places.<BR>
For example, it allows getting off a J-1 "main" occasionally without<BR>
any outside help. It also makes sense for trade in "frontier" areas or<BR>
near warzones (both can be *very* lucrative, albeit risky). Why?<BR>
Because if you jump in and discover someone waiting for you, you can<BR>
start a run to jump while fighting or evading. <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> While the <BR>
> rules state that identical ships in a class cost 80% of <BR>
> that of the first ship (thus the 2nd ship is cheaper) I am <BR>
> not so sure that the first ship with fuel for 2 jump 1's will<BR>
> be built in the first place. The first ship in any class is <BR>
> competing with every other ship that has already been built.<BR>
> Since it is cheaper to take a regular jump 1 ship and put extra <BR>
> tanks in it than to design a ship with fuel for 2 jump 1's<BR>
> this seems more likely to me (your mileage may vary).<BR>
<BR>
There's a gaping hole in your logic. I suggest you compare the cost of<BR>
two ships. One that has the tankage for two J-1s built in. And another,<BR>
with tanks added. But you have to add the cost of the added tanks to<BR>
the second ship. And the second ship has to have the *same* cargo<BR>
capacity as the first *after* adding the tanks. <BR>
<BR>
Another assumption you are making is that the ship can *only* do J-1! A<BR>
J-2 capable ship can do the job easily, and under at least some<BR>
versions of the rules, it will *automatically* have the tankage<BR>
required. <BR>
<BR>
> Given that a jump 2 400 ton ship will cost MCr 12 more and<BR>
> have 4 tons less space for other components than its jump 1<BR>
> counterpart it is not worthwhile to use a Jump 2+ ship for <BR>
> this run.<BR>
<BR>
It's not as if there's likely to be a ship *dedicated* to making the<BR>
supply run. You'll use what's on hand. Which makes it more likely that<BR>
ship that *doesn't* need added tankage will get handed the contract.<BR>
<BR>
>> > The rules are not silent about these matters. The rules list<BR>
>> > costs that players must pay and things players must do to<BR>
>> > run a merchant ship. Anything that is not on that list they <BR>
>> > don't have to pay.<BR>
>> <BR>
>> Not true. Refs can and do add extra costs when they feel like it.<BR>
>> Usually things like "special handling fees" some port wants. <BR>
><BR>
> Of course refs can add extra costs when they want to. These<BR>
> fees are covered under 'Berthing Costs' in most sets of<BR>
> Traveller rules. "Berthing costs. Landing fees, handling fees,<BR>
> facilities usage charges, and other starport fees are a common <BR>
> practice." [CT Book 2 Starships p. 8] IMTU since the rules do<BR>
> not state that such fee's vary based on the presence or absence<BR>
> of cargo (much less the difficulty of handling said cargo) I<BR>
> tend to treat these as fixed costs per ship, per DT, or the<BR>
> like. IMTU a world that charges a 'handling fee' is really<BR>
> simply taxing off worlders in one of the few ways the Imperium<BR>
> will let them get away with not making characters pay for the<BR>
> actual cost of dealing with the freight they are importing.<BR>
<BR>
The above is a circular argument. You are proving your point by<BR>
*assuming* it as part of your starting conditions.<BR>
<BR>
> You may choose to do it differently but charging players<BR>
> freight handling charges based on the logical and reasonable<BR>
> costs to the starport of transshipping that cargo is anathema<BR>
> to the distinctive look and feel of the Traveller economic<BR>
> rules (not that said rules are not broken, but that's another<BR>
> issue anyway.)<BR>
<BR>
No. It is anathema to *you*. Based on a "look and feel" you are<BR>
inferring, but that is almost certainly *not* the intent of the author.<BR>
The very paragraph you quote that mentions handling fees *proves* that<BR>
it *is* something the authors envisioned.<BR>
<BR>
>> > I'd set it up whichever way was the cheapest and batteries are<BR>
>> > cheaper. In a role playing game rules exist to model a<BR>
>> > reality the reality that the writers of Traveller have<BR>
>> > chosen to model is one in which these costs do not matter. If<BR>
>> > you disagree take it up with them, not with me.<BR>
>> <BR>
>> Again, "inconvenience" and "monetary cost" are *not* synonymous. Things<BR>
>> that are cheap can frequently be *very* inconvenient. Which is why<BR>
>> you'll find a lot of real world setups that *didn't* use the cheapest<BR>
>> solution, simply because it's such a hassle.<BR>
><BR>
> Cost is not equal to outlay in Cr, inconvenience is a cost, if<BR>
> you do your accounting properly you can calculate this cost.<BR>
<BR>
Most bosses just ignore it. And then wonder why they can't keep<BR>
workers. :-)<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2277<BR>
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Traveller-digest       Sunday, April 9 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2278<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: re Rugby<BR>
Re: Planet III Software<BR>
Secrets of ACQ<BR>
Re: Tech Question: GT stats/effects for Orbital Kinetic weapon(Thor)<BR>
Re: Vilani Name Generator<BR>
Re: Leonard<BR>
That pesky TL definition again<BR>
Re: Hi-tech/Low-tech<BR>
Re: Scale in Space<BR>
Re: Disparate TLs<BR>
Ludowick Gambit<BR>
Vaya Con Dios class ship<BR>
Dulinor not busted by Ludowick Gambit?<BR>
FF&S2 questions<BR>
Re: Ministry of Standards<BR>
Re: TL/Pixie<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2000 14:50:36 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: re Rugby<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Imagine carry a group of gravball rowdies to a subsector championship<BR>
> tournament.  Imagine carrying rowdies from competing teams.<BR>
<BR>
*NO* captain (or crew) will *ever* do that more than once. And most<BR>
will have the good sense to not do it at all. <BR>
<BR>
Carrying fans of one team? Ok, annoying, but probably something that<BR>
can be handled. Though I'd want a bunch of low berths to stick any<BR>
*real* troublemakers in.<BR>
<BR>
Fans of *both* teams? Good God *no*!<BR>
<BR>
Cecilia Eng's song "Asteroid Named Rest Stop" deals with a bad enough<BR>
cargo for a "mere" in-system trip...<BR>
<BR>
They are carrying *chickens* (which get loose) and a party of Shriners<BR>
(who are very, very drunk). And the ship doesn't have artificial<BR>
gravity... <BR>
<BR>
I'nm sure you can imagine the conditions once the ship cuts thrust and<BR>
starts coasting. <eg><BR>
<BR>
Hmmm. Have the PC's ship docked at the high port and have them a bit<BR>
lower on cash than they expected. So they decide to save some credits<BR>
and fly back up on "Bob's Budget Shuttle Service".<BR>
<BR>
Only after takeoff do they find out that not only is it rocket powered,<BR>
but has no artificial gravity, and saves money by using a transfer<BR>
orbit rather than constant boost. <BR>
<BR>
Not that free fall will bother most spacers much. But there are these<BR>
cages of chickens in the back of the compartment. And most of the<BR>
passengers were at a convention and are pretty drunk... <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2000 14:49:42 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Planet III Software<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> At 04:27 PM 4/9/2000 +0100, you wrote:<BR>
>>ISTR a post to the effect that Planet III released their Traveller Navigator<BR>
>>software into the public domain. However, I can't seem to find the software<BR>
>>available anywhere on the web. Does anybody know anything about this? Does<BR>
>>anybody know where it's possible to find it?<BR>
><BR>
> All the links are dead, and the gentleman seems to have moved.  I think<BR>
> it's dead Jim.<BR>
<BR>
But does anyone have a *copy*?<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2000 23:19:49 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Secrets of ACQ<BR>
<BR>
A question for those who know - you may have noticed that Derrick <BR>
Jones and Matt Bond have been having a surreal conversation using the <BR>
rules for ACQ and Penguins. But can anyone explain why Derrick <BR>
prefers to eat unripened Penguins over cold, hot, custard and other <BR>
varieties. ;-)<BR>
<BR>
Dom - who saw him eat at least three today. 8-o<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2000 13:43:08 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Tech Question: GT stats/effects for Orbital Kinetic weapon(Thor)<BR>
<BR>
At 7:54 -0400 9/4/00, "Nick Bradbeer" <nickb@ndirect.co.uk> wrote:<BR>
>(It's one of the wierdest compatibility issues I've seen, but Acrobat<BR>
>Viewer3 (wot I've got) just seems to fall over sometimes when trying to view<BR>
>Acrobat 4-created files. Anyone any idea why?)<BR>
<BR>
Yes - the Acrobat specification was upgraded between V4 and V3 to <BR>
support pre-press work better. V3 uses Acrobat 1.2 (IIRC) and lower, <BR>
V4 uses Acrobat 1.3 (and lower). You have to tell Acrobat <BR>
Exchange/PDFWriter/Distiller or Illustrator or InDesign to generate <BR>
the lower spec file if you want Reader 3 to read the file.<BR>
<BR>
BTW Reader 4 is a little better - the tool bar means you can save and <BR>
print within a browser window.<BR>
<BR>
Another question - does anyone know if the MacOS version of Acrobat 4 <BR>
has had the missing modules (eg burn website to PDF) released yet? I <BR>
refused to pay 75 for an upgrade which was merely a bug fix, and am <BR>
waiting for this before I get it.<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2000 23:21:12 +0100<BR>
From: "Nick Bradbeer" <nickb@ndirect.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: Vilani Name Generator<BR>
<BR>
>Will we see a Zhodani one?<BR>
>And why stop there?  Aslan?<BR>
>Vargr? (Woofruffiruff Barkhowlwoof).<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Ah, I love these word generators. But then I'm pretty hidebound when it<BR>
comes to coming up with names.<BR>
<BR>
yours,<BR>
Nishirahaagashirishirege Rabenishireh<BR>
+++<BR>
(I guess that should be pronounced Nish-Ira-haa-Gash-iri-Shi-rege<BR>
Ra-Ben-ish-Ir-eh....??"<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 08:24:17 +1000<BR>
From: "Katharine Whitchurch" <katts@globalfreeway.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re: Leonard<BR>
<BR>
> From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
> Subject: Re: Leonard (was Astronomy in the 57th Century)<BR>
><BR>
> In mail you write:<BR>
><BR>
> >> From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
> > But I do mind the fact that you wont either refer to or, even better,<BR>
> > correct the rules that define what is possible in Traveller.<BR>
><BR>
> Well, I can't refer to rules I don't own. And from 92 until about 18<BR>
> months ago, I was *very* poor.<BR>
><BR>
> > Fine, you think FFS screwed up with fuel cells. Propose a new table.<BR>
Write<BR>
> > up how much TL7-15 Fuel Cells should mass, cost, require in fuel(s) and<BR>
put<BR>
> > out in power. Do the same for TL1 - 7 life support. Allow the rest of us<BR>
to<BR>
> > belt on it, build stuff with it, and argue about it.<BR>
><BR>
> I *did* do some work with the FF&S2 folks, but we all know what a<BR>
> certain nameless company did to *that*.<BR>
><BR>
> Also, there's a *big* difference between knowing enough to be able to<BR>
> say a table is badly broken and knowing enough to write an *accurate*<BR>
> replacement.<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
Stuff getting it right on the first pass. Get something out into the field<BR>
that is better, and then other people have a platform for building best.<BR>
<BR>
A model of this is my High Performance Accumulators post - I fudged up some<BR>
numbers, put in an implied heat/crystal structure/whatever overload function<BR>
to stop them being used in starship weapons, and got it out.<BR>
<BR>
Are they completely accurate ? I dunno.<BR>
<BR>
Are they good enough ? Well, people didnt kick the snot out of them.<BR>
<BR>
Do the same with Fuel Cells and TL 1-7 life support. I can send you the FFS2<BR>
tables for both.<BR>
<BR>
> > Dont just whine about it. Improve it.<BR>
><BR>
> Believe it or not, I *do* have other things to do... :-)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 00:33:08 +0200 (METDST)<BR>
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk><BR>
Subject: That pesky TL definition again<BR>
<BR>
I've been considering the "TL is locally sustainable technology" for a couple<BR>
of days and the more I think of it, the less useful I find it. For instance,<BR>
I've been wondering what the locally sustainable technology of Denmark is and<BR>
I don't think it is much more than 3. Oh, we might manage something more in<BR>
selected areas, but across the board we'd be hard pressed to hold on to more<BR>
than level 3 if we were suddenly cut off from trading with the rest of the<BR>
world. You see, Denmark has very little in the way of mineral resources. Cut<BR>
off our imports and we'd be in big trouble. We used to have a little iron in<BR>
a form the English name of which I don't know (it is found in bogs). No coal<BR>
though, so no steel. Without steel we can't get at our oil in the North Sea,<BR>
so no combustion engines. Steam engines, maybe, but what to fuel them with?<BR>
Wood and peat... We don't build cars in Denmark; everything we drive in is<BR>
imported. I believe the most advanced vehicle locally built is the bicycle.<BR>
As for ships, we do built those, although we've been closing down shipyards<BR>
the last couple of decades. But without steel we'd be back to wooden ships, <BR>
and we would have a problem there too. You see, our forests have dwindled to<BR>
almost nothing. We have plenty of Christmas trees, but there's a dearth of<BR>
ship timbers and masts. We could plant some oaks, of course, but it takes<BR>
150 years for an oak to grow into suitable ship timber.<BR>
<BR>
Nevertheless, Denmark's locally sustainable TL is propably around 3. And it<BR>
was 3 when we used steam engines (TL 4) and when we got radio (TL 5) and<BR>
television (TL 6) and sattelite communication (TL 7). And it will remain<BR>
TL 3 when we get grav vehicles and meson communicators. So to claim that<BR>
Denmark, which abounds in personal computers and imported cars, has a TL<BR>
of 3 makes the designation rather useless. Or as someone else pointed out,<BR>
New York has a locally sustainable technology of about 1, but how useful<BR>
is that to know?<BR>
<BR>
Now, reluctant as I am to admit it, Book 3 does indeed say that TL indicates<BR>
"the general quality and capability of local industry". But there is two<BR>
things wrong with that: For one, there are worlds in the OTU that simply do<BR>
not have the population to man any factories at all, let alone enough<BR>
different factories to provide a balanced variety of technological goods<BR>
(And I do NOT believe that the explanation of guest workers holds water in<BR>
most cases). For another, being able to build something does not always mean<BR>
that it is locally sustainable technology. In Denmark we have factories<BR>
making advanced computer components. But we couldn't keep up building those<BR>
if we were suddenly cut off from trade.<BR>
<BR>
Finally, one of the points of _Hard Times_ is that the TL of many worlds are<BR>
NOT, in fact, locally sustainable.<BR>
<BR>
Book 3 also says that TL indicates "the general types or categories of goods<BR>
in general use on the world" and "the general ability of local technology to<BR>
repair or maintain items". Well, if you forget the requirement that local<BR>
goods HAS to be made locally, it all fits quite nicely. As I said, we don't<BR>
manufacture cars in Denmark, but we sure have a thriving car repair and<BR>
maintenance industry.<BR>
<BR>
So I maintain that the best, that is, most useful, definintion of TL is that<BR>
it is what is in general use on the planet, not necessesarily what can be<BR>
built on that planet, rather than what can be built locally with imports<BR>
allowing substantially higher technology in _general_ use.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
      Hans Rancke<BR>
University of Copenhagen<BR>
     rancke@diku.dk<BR>
- ------------<BR>
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent<BR>
         events based on the individual situation."<BR>
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2000 15:01:18 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Hi-tech/Low-tech<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> In a message dated 4/9/00 6:57:43 AM Central Daylight Time, <BR>
> owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com writes:<BR>
><BR>
>> Actually, theses days a lot of archival data is printed *directly* to<BR>
>>  microfilm. COM (Computer Output Microfilm/Microfiche) units achieve<BR>
>>  truly unreal "page rates" even for mainframe gear. <BR>
>>  <BR>
>>  I assume they are essentially a high res laser "printhead" writing<BR>
>>  directly to the film. <BR>
>>  <BR>
>>  > Hopefully, the 3i will have a better solution. Like eproms, maybe, in<BR>
>>  > ascii? <GD&R)<BR>
>>  <BR>
>>  COM is a nice mix of high tek/low tek. You use very high tek to create<BR>
>>  it, but it is readable with very low tek.<BR>
>>  <BR>
><BR>
> ObTrav: Have a "library" of technical manuals/journals, especially a <BR>
> 'history <BR>
> of technology' series, from a high-technology culture copied into this form <BR>
> and then either sold or lost on a low-tech world, but one with enough <BR>
> technology for microfilm readers (early TL 6). Instant tech boost start. <BR>
<BR>
Actually, the required technology is TL *3*. You just need to be able<BR>
to make decent lenses. All you need is a lens or lenses, and a strong<BR>
light source (and a screen to prject the image on). If all else fails,<BR>
you can use *sunlight* for the light source.<BR>
<BR>
Survivalist mags have lots of ads for microfiche libraries that include<BR>
a pocket sized *solar* reader. <BR>
<BR>
*Making* microfilm is a different matter.<BR>
<BR>
> ObTrav: A spy is known to have stolen key information and is trying to make <BR>
> his escape, but his actual identity is unknown (of course). The authorities, <BR>
> concentrating on high-tech espionage and data, may not even consider looking <BR>
> at such 'obviously' low-tech stuff as microfilm. The 'archaeologist' with <BR>
> his cargo of recovered TL 6 Terran artifacts goes through the pickets; the <BR>
> computer salesman from Vland with his cargo of computer memory modules gets <BR>
> turned inside out.<BR>
<BR>
I'll go you one better. Ship out a cargo container full of paper. Use<BR>
"invisible" ink to print the info on the paper. Heck, if you use an<BR>
inkjet printer, it'll hardly be any trouble at all. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2000 15:08:51 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Scale in Space<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>      In Brilliant Lances and Battlerider, the designers set a combat round to<BR>
> represent 30 minutes.  In Ct, the combat round was 1000 seconds.  This<BR>
> results in a distance scale of 10,000 to 30, 000 kilometers for 1 G thrust.<BR>
>       IIRC, they were two articles in Challenge magazine by Dave Nilsen and<BR>
> Frank Chadwick on lasers that covered all the engineering & scientific<BR>
> difficulties involved due to the long range at which lasers would be fired.<BR>
>  They came up with gravitic lenses to overcome the focusing problem.  <BR>
>       My question is, why pick such a long timescale?  Is it because of the<BR>
> distance at which ships can be detected?  Is it the need to get the 100<BR>
> diameter limit to fit on the playing area?  <BR>
<BR>
*One* of the reasons is because *current* sensors can track a ship the<BR>
size of a Traveller starship at multiple light second ranges. That's<BR>
around a *million* km. Which is a mere 4 hours at 1 g. 1.6 hours at 6 g.<BR>
<BR>
Also, given that the ships *can* boost for hours at a time, their<BR>
velocities become unreasonable at lower timespans and smaller<BR>
timescales. <BR>
<BR>
Due to the way Newtonian physics work, the time scale and the hex size<BR>
are tied together. If you pick a hex size, then you have to pick a<BR>
timescale such that 1G equals 1, or only a few hexes moved. Otherwise,<BR>
you have ships moving clear across the playing area in one "turn". <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 00:41:09 +0200 (METDST)<BR>
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk><BR>
Subject: Re: Disparate TLs<BR>
<BR>
Walter Smith writes:<BR>
<BR>
>Hans wrote:<BR>
>>Maybe very hard, maybe not hard at all (see below). But even if they could,<BR>
>>maybey they prefer 5 million riflemen to 333,333 laseroni (to coin a word<BR>
>>for laser-armed soldiers (cf. carabinieri))?<BR>
> <BR>
>Laseroni? Sounds like some marketing drone's attempt to sell<BR>
>high-tech pasta.<BR>
 <BR>
It sounds funny because it is unfamiliar. It is no stranger than carabinieri,<BR>
lancer, hussar, or, ho-ho-ho, dragoon.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
      Hans Rancke<BR>
University of Copenhagen<BR>
     rancke@diku.dk<BR>
- ------------<BR>
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent<BR>
         events based on the individual situation."<BR>
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2000 18:52:46 EDT<BR>
From: Ludowick@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Ludowick Gambit<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erickson writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
 >There's a *much* simpler explanation. It takes care of *all* variants<BR>
 >of this, and helps explain why it takes so long to increase max jump<BR>
 >distance. <BR>
 ><BR>
 >The rolls are for *accidental* misjumps. For some reason, *deliberate*<BR>
 >misjumps always result in the disappearance of the ship. They are<BR>
 >*presumed* destroyed, but no one really knows. There's even a theory<BR>
 >that says they wind up making *much* bigger misjumps (say 100 parsec<BR>
 >*minimum*).<BR>
<BR>
The way to dodge this bugbear is to deliberately misjump by accident.  In <BR>
this version, you _do_ make an ordinary jump (not an attempt to tweak the <BR>
j-drive), but you make it from within 100D of some massive body (like Oprah).<BR>
This version of the Gambit should still work.<BR>
<BR>
Otherwise, what happens when a ship jumps from inside the danger zone to <BR>
escape some immediate threat (attacking vessel), its crew knowing that they<BR>
risk misjump?  Will their ship become an automatic disappearance or super-<BR>
misjump?  <BR>
<BR>
In all seriousness, I think the Gambit would be _extremely_ rare, and used <BR>
only a few times in history (if at all).  I was thinking of the Greek cou-<BR>
rier, who delivered a warning about the coming Persians, only to fall dead <BR>
after delivering his message (he had run almost non-stop for 3 days, IIRC).<BR>
I've probably got the details wrong on this one.  Anyway, the Trav version <BR>
seems kind of cool.  YMMV.<BR>
<BR>
Ludowick@aol.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2000 18:53:53 EDT<BR>
From: Ludowick@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Vaya Con Dios class ship<BR>
<BR>
AuricTech Shipyards (Wombat?) writes:<BR>
<BR>
 >This is one of the most twisted ideas I've seen on the TML in nearly<BR>
 >two<BR>
 >years.  I _like_ it!<BR>
<BR>
Ahhh.  Many thanks.<BR>
<BR>
 >In fact, I like it so much, I designed a ship optimized for this<BR>
 >mission<BR>
 >(T4/FF&S2).  (I based it on the AuricTech F21-2 Light Transport.) <BR>
 >While<BR>
 >I haven't transcribed the description into text yet, the highlights of<BR>
 >the _Vaya Con Dios_ class are:<BR>
 ><BR>
 >1.  Low cost.  Assuming a 10% discount for bulk purchases, each one<BR>
 >costs only MCr 17.905.<BR>
<BR>
Love that price tag!<BR>
<BR>
 >2.  Long legs.  In addition to the J2 drive, this 100 dton ship carries<BR>
 >an extra 50 dtons of fuel (that's five extra parsecs range).  The ship<BR>
 >also carries a fuel purification plant and scoops.<BR>
<BR>
 >3.  Long-term habitability.  The _Vaya Con Dios_ class has two large<BR>
 >staterooms for its optimal crew of two, as well as an emergency low<BR>
 >berth.  There is sufficient food storage (Normal quality, processed for<BR>
 >storage) for two sophonts to survive for _two years_.  Of course, food<BR>
 >storage volumes in FF&S2 include an extra week of Emergency rations for<BR>
 >each two weeks of Normal rations....<BR>
<BR>
Extra features to increase the chance of crew survival, eh?  I bet you <BR>
could shave off some credits by making it more of a "Second-World" design.<BR>
Jump-1, normal life support/supplies...  Whaddya wanna live forever?   :)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
 >Interested lunat ^h^h^h^h^h parties can contact me for an RTF file of<BR>
 >the ship.<BR>
<BR>
Please email Ludowick@aol.com an RTF file of this cookie.  I wan't to see <BR>
her.<BR>
<BR>
Ludowick<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2000 18:54:57 EDT<BR>
From: Ludowick@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Dulinor not busted by Ludowick Gambit?<BR>
<BR>
Peter Newman writes:<BR>
<BR>
 >You are evil, I like that in a person. <BR>
<BR>
<sob>  They loathe me, they really loathe me!  <sniffle><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
 >But the CT survival roll for Scouts was 7+ per year. The Book <BR>
 >6 Scout Commo Branch 'Special Mission' Survival roll is 6+<BR>
 >(the same as Naval crew on a Raid or Army/Marine crew in a <BR>
 >Battle). Therefor recovering about half the crews sounds about <BR>
 >right.<BR>
<BR>
I knew they wouldn't mind.<BR>
<BR>
 >> In conclusion:  I think we can do this.  We have the technology.  We<BR>
 >have<BR>
 >> the will.  We can prepare for almost any disaster:<BR>
 >> Dulinor fleeing to Illelish: Busted!  No Rebellion, no Black War, No<BR>
 >Virus!<BR>
 ><BR>
 >That's why Dulinor had to get the Illelish fleet (run by <BR>
 >his brother) on his side either the fleet destroyed all<BR>
 >these Scouts or Dulinor got to the Scout Base Commander<BR>
 >at Capitol/Core and made sure the message was never sent.<BR>
<BR>
I was thinking that word of his misdeeds could get ahead of his ship, and <BR>
he could be nabbed _before_ he even gets to Illelish sector.  Possible punish-<BR>
ment: <BR>
<BR>
1. Administer anagathics to prolong his life.<BR>
<BR>
2. Insert would-be "reformer" in pain amplifier, for as long as he shall live.<BR>
   Does anyone have Dulinor's UPP?  We could model his future.<BR>
<BR>
3. Pipe screams through PA systems in Capital's cities, every Holiday.<BR>
<BR>
Ludowick                                                                      <BR>
                              <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2000 18:55:58 EDT<BR>
From: Ludowick@aol.com<BR>
Subject: FF&S2 questions<BR>
<BR>
D. Smart writes:<BR>
<BR>
 >That makes two of us! Except I'm really just getting started<BR>
 >on the<BR>
 >starship weapons conversions.<BR>
 > <BR>
<BR>
 >> 1. <BR>
<snip> <BR>
 >I'm not there yet.<BR>
<BR>
Okay.  I'm pretty sure this one is true.<BR>
<BR>
  >> 2. <BR>
<snip><BR>
 >I believe your assumption is correct.<BR>
<BR>
Thanks.<BR>
<BR>
  >> 3. <BR>
<snip> <BR>
 >As I recall, the damage is the number of damage dice but no<BR>
 >character will<BR>
 >take more than 3D of damage regardless of the weapon's<BR>
 >rating. The<BR>
 >remaining damage is lost through "blowthrough". This rule,<BR>
 >btw, does not<BR>
 >apply to HE rounds. They do full damage to soft targets.<BR>
 >(eeewwwwwww)<BR>
<BR>
Thanks again.  This should make conversions to MT easier.<BR>
<BR>
 >> 4. <BR>
<snip><BR>
 >I'm clueless on this one.<BR>
<BR>
There may be a formula missing that modifies Emuzzle to Eeffective based on <BR>
range.  I don't know.<BR>
<BR>
  >> 5. <BR>
<snip><BR>
 >Unfortunately, I *don't* know what to do yet. I'd appreciate<BR>
 >any help<BR>
 >you (and everyone else) could give.<BR>
<BR>
The general procedure is to design the widget with FF&S2, and then evaluate <BR>
it in terms of MT, or whatever system you use.  Keep track of all the "real<BR>
world" stats (cubic meters, metric tons, etc.) and use them to evaluate the <BR>
MT stats.  Find the armor value from hull thickness in cm, find MT damage<BR>
points of craft based on craft volume & the MT formulae.  If damage value <BR>
_is_ dice of damage, then weapons will evaluate similarly.  From some <BR>
designs I've seen online, damage value usually seems to equal penetration<BR>
(unless FF&S says otherwise), for most weapons.  You can convert it into <BR>
cm's of steel by using the material toughness table in the back of the book.<BR>
<BR>
The formula for CPR gun penetration seems to break down for big guns (try a<BR>
46cm type 94 naval rifle -- muzzle energy [RL] c. 450 Mj.  PV comes out  <BR>
quite a bit high, compared to the actual weapon).  Projectile weight<BR>
is off, too.  Fusion guns should have a higher damage value than plasma guns<BR>
(not just longer range), so there are still some bugs in FFS2.  Make sure you <BR>
download the errata from the Missouri Traveller archive.  (It doesn't fix the <BR>
problems I mentioned, but it is a big help).<BR>
<BR>
W. Hostman (I think) suggested getting 3G3, 2nd edition, as it has con-<BR>
version rules.  This may be the easiest route.<BR>
<BR>
I'm just getting started in this, too, so I may have made some errors.<BR>
<BR>
Ludowick@aol.com<BR>
<BR>
                                             <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2000 15:18:15 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Ministry of Standards<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> With the rise (I assume) of big nasty computers which could create images<BR>
> indistinguishable from the real thing (ie holo movies where the actors are<BR>
> computer created), would the Ministry of Standards or Trading Standards<BR>
> Bureau be responsible for certifing holo-products as containing 'real<BR>
> actors'?<BR>
><BR>
> I have this image of Pornography Police from the Standards Bureau doing a<BR>
> raid on a warehouse containing counterfit 'real actor' skin flicks.<BR>
><BR>
> BTW The reason this came about is that I have a player in my game whose<BR>
> character is a former exotic dancer (later Marine Spec Forces).<BR>
<BR>
I'd expect an approach similar to what is required under the US's<BR>
"kiddie porn" law from the 80s. <BR>
<BR>
All materials must identify the producer of the material, and have a<BR>
contact address where the "documentation" for the pictures can be<BR>
examined. <BR>
<BR>
For magazines, they'll have copies of the forms they got from the<BR>
photographer. He'll have the originals. For movies and videos, they'll<BR>
have the originals. <BR>
<BR>
The forms identify all the people appearing, including their age at the<BR>
time of the shoot. One form per person per shoot. <BR>
<BR>
Failure to have the "how to contact" info makes you *automatically*<BR>
guilty. Failure to have the documentation makes you guilty. <BR>
<BR>
In short, it's up to the people *producing* the stuff to prove that it<BR>
is legal. If they can't provide acceptable proof, then they've violated<BR>
the law.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 01:22:32 +0200 (METDST)<BR>
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk><BR>
Subject: Re: TL/Pixie<BR>
<BR>
Ian Ferguson writes:<BR>
<BR>
>I (personal opinion) do not believe that Traveller reflects a possible<BR>
>future. The rules are a lot of fun, but I certainly do not think that<BR>
>the rules or the OTU can be reconciled with reality.<BR>
<BR>
Nor do I require them to. But I do want them to be internally consistent.<BR>
<BR>
>>This is part of what I mean when I talk of placing UWPs in a specific<BR>
>>setting. There's no logical reason for any traffic to pass through Pixie.<BR>
>>Anything that comes from outside the Menorb mini-main is Jump-2 and can get<BR>
>>to Yres without passing through Pixie. Jump-1 traffic from Boughene to Yres<BR>
>>(assuming there is any) has a choice of going through Menorb or Pixie. If<BR>
>>there is any traffic from Boughene, it isn't very much; Boughene has a<BR>
>>population of 600,000. Any system in Uthe subsector is easier to get to<BR>
>>from some other system than Pixie.<BR>
><BR>
>Given that the universe has been created with dice rolls, I use the<BR>
>following explanation: The Imperial Navy built a base on Pixie for<BR>
>their own purposes, and the local miners started to cater to naval<BR>
>personel. <BR>
<BR>
What local miners? The 90 residents?<BR>
<BR>
>The civilian starport was effectively upgraded by the presence of the base,<BR>
>particularly when some unused naval facilities were sold to the locals for<BR>
>a song.<BR>
<BR>
Pixie doesn't have enough men to run a starport, let alone a shipyard, even<BR>
if they had gotten the facilities for free. <BR>
<BR>
>The x-boat link to the Dentus cluster was put through Pixie because of the<BR>
>naval base, <BR>
<BR>
Since the Navy use their own couriers there's no reason why a Naval Base<BR>
would generate any need for an X-boat connection.<BR>
<BR>
>...so a "rudimentary" scout base was established at the starport.  By now,<BR>
>hardly anyone on Pixie worked away from the starport, but the x-boat<BR>
>traffic (plus all traffic between Yres and the Dentus cluster, plus<BR>
>some between Menorb and the Dentus cluster, plus some between the<BR>
>spinward side of the Regina subsector and the Vargr Extents, plus<BR>
>couriers cycling around Boughene-Menorb-Yres-Pixie) has pushed local<BR>
>resources to the limit.<BR>
<BR>
WHAT traffic?!? Just saying that there is all this traffic doesn't make it<BR>
so. There has to be a reason why the traffic is there in the first place,<BR>
and there isn't. Furthermore, if the traffic WAS there and generated all<BR>
that business, why isn't there more people catering to it? <BR>
<BR>
>There's not much to attract colonists, so a sizable investment in robots<BR>
>has been made (I'm not talking about hundreds here, more like tens).<BR>
<BR>
Investment by whom? And how do they expect to get their money back?<BR>
<BR>
>There is still not much traffic compared to many other places, but there<BR>
>is enough to keep the small starport occupied.<BR>
<BR>
Even accepting that (and you still haven't explained why all this traffic<BR>
chose to go through Pixie), you come back to the problem of running the<BR>
damn shipyard with maybe 25 effective workers. And why a shipyard? If all<BR>
this traffic really was coming through Pixie (which I still consider a<BR>
big if), then maintenance facilities would make sense. But any ships built<BR>
on Pixie would be more expensive than a comparable ship built in a place<BR>
with enough people to produce the component locally, so why build them on<BR>
Pixie?<BR>
<BR>
><snipped><BR>
>>>...How many people have to work on a 600-ton ship at one time? 10? 20? 40?<BR>
>>Well, that depends on just what you're talking about. The people who punch<BR>
>>the clock at the General Shipyards Pixie Yard? Or those people plus their<BR>
>>families? Or those plus the people who make the rest of the local society?<BR>
> <BR>
>The people who punch the clock at the shipyards only.  Their family<BR>
>also work there, and there is almost no "rest of the local society."<BR>
<BR>
Well, the children don't work there, they go to school or nursery. The old<BR>
people don't work there, they are retired. The day-care people don't work<BR>
there, the doctor and the nurse and the teacher don't work there. The<BR>
plumber... well, I suppose the plumber do work there...<BR>
<BR>
And if you tell me that there are no children and no old people, then it<BR>
isn't a society and the workers are not residents. I guess you might be<BR>
able to run a starship assembly plant with 90 workers, but why ship in<BR>
the components and assemble them on Pixie instead of assembling them in<BR>
the system where the components are built?<BR>
 <BR>
>>All of which makes ships from Pixie more expensive than ships from other,<BR>
>>more well-rounded worlds. So why build on Pixie at all, and who takes the<BR>
>>loss and why is he willing to do so? Until you've answered that, you haven't<BR>
>>really explained Pixie at all.<BR>
> <BR>
>Sure I have.  People don't built on Pixie.<BR>
<BR>
Canon says differently.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
      Hans Rancke<BR>
University of Copenhagen<BR>
     rancke@diku.dk<BR>
- ------------<BR>
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent<BR>
         events based on the individual situation."<BR>
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2278<BR>
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Traveller-digest       Sunday, April 9 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2279<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Basic Economics (was Re: Astronomy in the 57th Century)<BR>
Re: Trans-shipping Costs (was Re: Astronomy in the 57th Century)<BR>
Re: Astronomy in the 57th Century<BR>
RE: That pesky TL definition again<BR>
Re: Planet III software<BR>
re: Striker miniatures & other stuff<BR>
Just what IS TL? (Was: Notes on building Heya)<BR>
Re: Smart weapons <BR>
Re: RS<BR>
Re Fuel Cell Debate<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2000 15:46:39 -0800<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Basic Economics (was Re: Astronomy in the 57th Century)<BR>
<BR>
shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) wrote<BR>
<BR>
> >> Who said anything about a "specialized container ship"?<BR>
> >> if there is a "standard" design that can do two J-1s<BR>
> >> without refueling, and has the requisite cargo capacity, *that* is what<BR>
> >> will be used. <BR>
<BR>
> > there may not be a standard (i.e. cheaper due to class discounts)<BR>
> > small merchant design that is built for 2 jump 1's.<BR>
<BR>
> Hold it right there. It implies no such thing. All that it does is show<BR>
> that the folks designing the ships in the books (which are frequently<BR>
> not even legal designs under the rules!) didn't happen to think of<BR>
> drawing up such a ship.<BR>
<BR>
"The designs listed here are standard: that is, each ship type <BR>
is mass-produced in shipyards throughout the Imperium, which<BR>
provides economies of scale and saves the fees of a ship architect."<BR>
[MT ImpEnc p 76]<BR>
<BR>
The canonical text does not say that these designs and others<BR>
we have not mentioned are standard it says "these designs"<BR>
are standard. Therefore no other designs are standard unless<BR>
another subsequent canonical product says that they are standard.<BR>
<BR>
Canon also indicates by including the Seeker, a modified<BR>
type S Scout Courier, on its list of "standard" ships that<BR>
modified ships are canonical [p. 81].<BR>
<BR>
> You *absolutely* cannot draw *any* inferences about what sort of ships,<BR>
> vehicles or equipment may or may not be "common" in any Traveller<BR>
> Universe based on which ones are included in the rules. Those are<BR>
> *samples*, and their variety is strictly limited to what the designers<BR>
> thought up and felt like including. <BR>
<BR>
The rules do not support the contention that the included vessels<BR>
are 'samples'. I am not aware of any introductory Traveller <BR>
rules set which describes the vehicles it includes as 'samples'. <BR>
Rather (as quoted above) the rules state that these designs <BR>
are standard.<BR>
<BR>
Moreover if you look at the 'Starship Encounters' section of<BR>
the rules you will see canonical evidence that standard designs<BR>
are the norm in the official Traveller universe. The Starship<BR>
Encounters charts include Merchant, Civilian, Non Starship,<BR>
X-Boat, Scout, and Naval Vessels. There are a total of 216 <BR>
possible rolls on this chart (1d6 for sub table, roll 2d6 for<BR>
specific type). Of these 216 possible encounters only 15<BR>
of them are with Non Standard designs. In any system only<BR>
accessible by jump-2 or better only 6 out of 216 encounters<BR>
will be with a non standard ship. This is clear canonical<BR>
proof that less than 7% of all ships and less than 3%<BR>
of all ships encountered in systems not on jump 1 mains will<BR>
be non standard. If non standard ships were typical they<BR>
would be encountered more often<BR>
<BR>
Given that non standard ships (by canon) do not get the<BR>
class discount. Given that (by canon) standard modifications<BR>
to standard ships do get the class discount. Given that<BR>
(by canon) everything in the OTU is about money. Given<BR>
that (by canon) few encountered starships are non standard.<BR>
Given that (by canon) only the ships listed in the rules<BR>
are canon. Given these factors I find the inference that<BR>
the reason non standard designs are rarely encountered is <BR>
that their total cost of operation is higher and thus they<BR>
can not adequately compete with the standard designs.<BR>
<BR>
> Merchants that can do two J-1s are *very* useful in a lot of places.<BR>
> For example, it allows getting off a J-1 "main" occasionally without<BR>
> any outside help. It also makes sense for trade in "frontier" areas or<BR>
> near warzones (both can be *very* lucrative, albeit risky). Why?<BR>
> Because if you jump in and discover someone waiting for you, you can<BR>
> start a run to jump while fighting or evading. <BR>
<BR>
Oh I agree, there is no doubt that ships which can do<BR>
2 jump 1's are useful (See The Traveller Adventure). I<BR>
am simply stating that given the lack of canonical standard<BR>
ship designs that are built to do 2 jump 1's _and_ the<BR>
presence of rules for adding extra fuel tanks (dismountable<BR>
or collapsible) to existing designs this is a clear canonical<BR>
statement that such designs are not standard built but<BR>
are modified.<BR>
<BR>
I also note that the presence of the Seeker (a modification)<BR>
on the list of "standard" ships is clear canonical<BR>
evidence that modified ships can be standard (i.e. that<BR>
these modifications are done so frequently that shipyards<BR>
have sufficient experience at doing them so as to be able<BR>
to do them faster and cheaper, therefore qualifying the<BR>
ship for standard discounts).<BR>
<BR>
> > While the <BR>
> > rules state that identical ships in a class cost 80% of <BR>
> > that of the first ship (thus the 2nd ship is cheaper) I am <BR>
> > not so sure that the first ship with fuel for 2 jump 1's will<BR>
> > be built in the first place. The first ship in any class is <BR>
> > competing with every other ship that has already been built.<BR>
> > Since it is cheaper to take a regular jump 1 ship and put extra <BR>
> > tanks in it than to design a ship with fuel for 2 jump 1's<BR>
> > this seems more likely to me (your mileage may vary).<BR>
<BR>
> There's a gaping hole in your logic. I suggest you compare the cost of<BR>
> two ships. One that has the tankage for two J-1s built in. And another,<BR>
> with tanks added. But you have to add the cost of the added tanks to<BR>
> the second ship. And the second ship has to have the *same* cargo<BR>
> capacity as the first *after* adding the tanks. <BR>
<BR>
Modifications can be done at the standard discounted rate as <BR>
proven by the MT Seeker (as opposed to the CT Sup 7 Seeker).<BR>
Therefore since a ship that is scratch built to do 2 jump 1's<BR>
is not standard (i.e. on the official list of standard ships<BR>
that qualify for a class discount in the official Traveller<BR>
universe) but modifications are it is quite clear that the<BR>
modified ship will be much cheaper. Given that no ships designed <BR>
for 2 jump 1's are on this list then no such designs are standard <BR>
in the canonical Traveller universe. If you as a Referee choose<BR>
to add more ships to the list of "standard" designs then you<BR>
are changing the nature of the Traveller universe. While this<BR>
is admittedly your prerogative as Referee such ships are not<BR>
"standard" in the official Traveller universe.<BR>
<BR>
> Another assumption you are making is that the ship can *only* do J-1! A<BR>
> J-2 capable ship can do the job easily, and under at least some<BR>
> versions of the rules, it will *automatically* have the tankage<BR>
> required. <BR>
<BR>
> > Given that a jump 2 400 ton ship will cost MCr 12 more and<BR>
> > have 4 tons less space for other components than its jump 1<BR>
> > counterpart it is not worthwhile to use a Jump 2+ ship for <BR>
> > this run.<BR>
<BR>
> It's not as if there's likely to be a ship *dedicated* to making the<BR>
> supply run. You'll use what's on hand. Which makes it more likely that<BR>
> ship that *doesn't* need added tankage will get handed the contract.<BR>
<BR>
The total cost of operations for the cheaper ship will be <BR>
less. Therefore if given a choice of what ship to own, charter,<BR>
lease, or ship cargo on shippers will (over a 1 jump distance)<BR>
choose a jump 1 ship. <BR>
<BR>
On the other hand the canonical rules for chartering a ship<BR>
(in MT) state that charters cost a flat Cr 900 per DT of<BR>
cargo space + CR 9,000 per High Passage berth + Cr 900 per<BR>
Low Passage Berth (per 2 week block) Since these rules do not <BR>
require that a jump 2 (and thus more expensive) ship gets any <BR>
better price in the charter market than its jump 1 counterpart <BR>
the argument possibly should be made that the economic reality<BR>
that cheaper ships are cheaper should be ignored.<BR>
<BR>
> >> > The rules are not silent about these matters. The rules list<BR>
> >> > costs that players must pay and things players must do to<BR>
> >> > run a merchant ship. Anything that is not on that list they <BR>
> >> > don't have to pay.<BR>
> >> <BR>
> >> Not true. Refs can and do add extra costs when they feel like it.<BR>
> >> Usually things like "special handling fees" some port wants. <BR>
> ><BR>
> > Of course refs can add extra costs when they want to. These<BR>
> > fees are covered under 'Berthing Costs' in most sets of<BR>
> > Traveller rules. "Berthing costs. Landing fees, handling fees,<BR>
> > facilities usage charges, and other starport fees are a common <BR>
> > practice." [CT Book 2 Starships p. 8] <BR>
<BR>
> The above is a circular argument. You are proving your point by<BR>
> *assuming* it as part of your starting conditions.<BR>
<BR>
The quoted canonical rules do not include the notion that such <BR>
fees will vary by the tonnage of cargo shipped. Therefore<BR>
any such notion (however logical it may or may not be) is<BR>
not canonical. If the writers had wanted you to consider this<BR>
as a possibility they would have put it on the list.<BR>
<BR>
> > You may choose to do it differently but charging players<BR>
> > freight handling charges based on the logical and reasonable<BR>
> > costs to the starport of transshipping that cargo is anathema<BR>
> > to the distinctive look and feel of the Traveller economic<BR>
> > rules (not that said rules are not broken, but that's another<BR>
> > issue anyway.)<BR>
<BR>
> No. It is anathema to *you*. Based on a "look and feel" you are<BR>
> inferring, but that is almost certainly *not* the intent of the author.<BR>
> The very paragraph you quote that mentions handling fees *proves* that<BR>
> it *is* something the authors envisioned.<BR>
<BR>
No it does not. If the authors had envisioned such handling<BR>
fee's varying based on cargo characteristics they would have <BR>
mentioned it. The absence of such mention is a dismissal of<BR>
said idea. The section is called berthing fee's, not cargo<BR>
fee's. Therefore handling fees must be charged to every<BR>
ship in port (without sufficient political juice or bribery<BR>
skill to avoid them) not merely to ships actually carrying<BR>
cargo.<BR>
<BR>
> >> > I'd set it up whichever way was the cheapest and batteries are<BR>
> >> > cheaper. In a role playing game rules exist to model a<BR>
> >> > reality the reality that the writers of Traveller have<BR>
> >> > chosen to model is one in which these costs do not matter. If<BR>
> >> > you disagree take it up with them, not with me.<BR>
> >> <BR>
> >> Again, "inconvenience" and "monetary cost" are *not* synonymous. Things<BR>
> >> that are cheap can frequently be *very* inconvenient.<BR>
<BR>
> > Cost is not equal to outlay in Cr, inconvenience is a cost, if<BR>
> > you do your accounting properly you can calculate this cost.<BR>
<BR>
> Most bosses just ignore it. And then wonder why they can't keep<BR>
> workers. :-)<BR>
<BR>
True, the cost their businesses are paying is the cost of high<BR>
turnover. The cost of acquiring and retraining new workers is <BR>
a real cost of doing business. While it is often ignored by <BR>
division managers whose incentive is to make their division<BR>
profitable by cutting costs and who do not have to worry about<BR>
training costs it is not often ignored by _owners_ who want to <BR>
make a profit.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2000 15:54:16 -0800<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Trans-shipping Costs (was Re: Astronomy in the 57th Century)<BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith <smithw@hartwick.edu> wrote<BR>
<BR>
> >The rules do in fact mention this. If you look under the<BR>
> >'Starship Expenses' section of most any Traveller rules set<BR>
> >you will see the starship expenses they list. The cost of<BR>
> >transshipping cargo is not on this list. The absence of the<BR>
> >expense required to transship bulky cargo _is_ an official<BR>
> >canonical statement that such expenses do not exist. If they<BR>
> >did exist then they would be on the expense list and players<BR>
> >would have to worry about paying them.<BR>
> <BR>
> That's because the expense rules are written for ship owners, not<BR>
> for interstellar trading companies or business concerns who need to<BR>
> ship things.<BR>
<BR>
The owner of a ship _is_ the owner of a (small) interstellar<BR>
trading company or business.<BR>
<BR>
> A Traveller Free Trader captain contracts to move the cargo from one<BR>
> star system to another. It's the cargo owner's job to get the cargo to<BR>
> the ship, and the cargo reciever's job to get the cargo from the ship.<BR>
> The trans-shipping fees are paid, just not by the starship captain.<BR>
> Take a look at expenses to shuttle cargo & passengers to/from orbit.<BR>
> That's a trans-shipping cost, that probably includes the cost of loading<BR>
> or unloading the shuttle. I'm sure that's not the only possible one.<BR>
<BR>
I had not mentioned shuttle fees to and from the high port<BR>
because such fees are paid per DT with no distinction made<BR>
as to the ease of handling such cargo. This is further evidence<BR>
that Traveller has officially chosen to deliberately ignore<BR>
any economic realities that would distinguish freight handling<BR>
costs. Note that shuttle handling fees do not vary based on<BR>
the distance or time of the trip from the high port either.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2000 15:59:19 -0800<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Astronomy in the 57th Century<BR>
<BR>
shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) wrote<BR>
<BR>
> >>You still miss the point. They will not be "cargo containers with a<BR>
> >>single battery inside. Since they'll be custom units anyway, the<BR>
> >>*batteries* will be the size and shape of a cargo module, with<BR>
> >>apropriate surface features <BR>
<BR>
> > Chiming in as an engineer here, if I was designing the batteries I'd<BR>
> > personally build them with a very light shell that fits snugly inside a<BR>
> > shipping container. Since a battery that big is really expensive, it makes<BR>
> > sense to protect it with a nice cheap outer shell that you can easily<BR>
> > replace at low cost if a cargo handler accidentally bangs it a bit hard or<BR>
> > something. Easier than sending the whole unit back to the manufacturer for a<BR>
> > rebuild.<BR>
<BR>
> A point. A definite point.<BR>
<BR>
That's exactly why I'd do it this way. The shipping container<BR>
is cheep protection for the battery and helps serve to protect <BR>
the ship and crew from battery leaks.<BR>
<BR>
> But I assume you'd do as I'd be inclined to<BR>
> and modify the "shell" to have "access ports" for the "terminals" of<BR>
> the battery?<BR>
<BR>
Standard cargo containers already have openings. I'd simply<BR>
design my battery so that its leads fit through these openings<BR>
on the standard container rather than modifying the container.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2000 20:02:38 -0400<BR>
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net><BR>
Subject: RE: That pesky TL definition again<BR>
<BR>
Hans Rancke-Madsen says:<BR>
<BR>
>I've been considering the "TL is locally sustainable technology" for a<BR>
couple<BR>
>of days and the more I think of it, the less useful I find it. For<BR>
instance,<BR>
>I've been wondering what the locally sustainable technology of Denmark is<BR>
and<BR>
>I don't think it is much more than 3. Oh, we might manage something more in<BR>
>selected areas, but across the board we'd be hard pressed to hold on to<BR>
more<BR>
>than level 3 if we were suddenly cut off from trading with the rest of the<BR>
>world. You see, Denmark has very little in the way of mineral resources.<BR>
Cut<BR>
>off our imports and we'd be in big trouble.<BR>
<BR>
Interesting point, although still somewhat odd. During the age of British<BR>
Imperialism imported raw materials were extremely important. Most textile<BR>
work was done in Britain with materials brought from other parts of the<BR>
world, and then exported back to other parts of the world. I'm not sure how<BR>
to parse this through your model, however. Britain in the 18th and 19th<BR>
century was certainly the most technologically advanced culture on the<BR>
planet during that time period, and it required imported raw materials and,<BR>
quite obviously, trade (in some form) with those countries which had the raw<BR>
materials they needed.<BR>
<BR>
Are local mineral resources "part" of a world's TL? I don't know. I'm not<BR>
wild about that, but it is an interesting idea. I think that this is a<BR>
mis-interpretation of the position that TL indicates what can be produced<BR>
locally.<BR>
<BR>
>Nevertheless, Denmark's locally sustainable TL is propably around 3. And it<BR>
>was 3 when we used steam engines (TL 4) and when we got radio (TL 5) and<BR>
>television (TL 6) and sattelite communication (TL 7). And it will remain<BR>
>TL 3 when we get grav vehicles and meson communicators. So to claim that<BR>
>Denmark, which abounds in personal computers and imported cars, has a TL<BR>
>of 3 makes the designation rather useless. Or as someone else pointed out,<BR>
>New York has a locally sustainable technology of about 1, but how useful<BR>
>is that to know?<BR>
<BR>
Extremely useful if you use the tech level indicator to identify markets and<BR>
the producers who supply those markets. For example, high-tech industrial<BR>
worlds might import lots of raw materials, and export lots of high-tech<BR>
manufactured goods. Low-tech worlds might import lots of high-tech<BR>
manufactured goods and export lots of raw materials. Of course, this is not<BR>
hard and fast, but one digit can't be considered hard and fast with respect<BR>
to the variety of things that the tech level digit encodes.<BR>
<BR>
>Now, reluctant as I am to admit it, Book 3 does indeed say that TL<BR>
indicates<BR>
>"the general quality and capability of local industry". But there is two<BR>
>things wrong with that: For one, there are worlds in the OTU that simply do<BR>
>not have the population to man any factories at all, let alone enough<BR>
>different factories to provide a balanced variety of technological goods<BR>
<BR>
Who said that the technological goods have to be balanced? I can't think of<BR>
any country in the real world that produces, all by itself, a balanced<BR>
variety of technological goods. This is only possible, theoretically, at the<BR>
very lowest tech levels. Even so, it can still be difficult (much of the<BR>
marble used in ancient Athens was Parian marble, which imported from foreign<BR>
quarries). Higher tech levels require greater specialization. America, for<BR>
example, has a decent balance of finished manufactured goods, but many of<BR>
them are made by foreign laborers.<BR>
<BR>
>(And I do NOT believe that the explanation of guest workers holds water in<BR>
>most cases). For another, being able to build something does not always<BR>
mean<BR>
>that it is locally sustainable technology. In Denmark we have factories<BR>
>making advanced computer components. But we couldn't keep up building those<BR>
>if we were suddenly cut off from trade.<BR>
<BR>
You're reading "locally sustainable" as "if the world is cut off from the<BR>
interstellar community, this is what it can do". I see this as something of<BR>
a mistake, personally.<BR>
<BR>
>Finally, one of the points of _Hard Times_ is that the TL of many worlds<BR>
are<BR>
>NOT, in fact, locally sustainable.<BR>
<BR>
They are "locally sustainable" with respect to the world being part of a<BR>
living, breathing and thriving interstellar community (if the Imperium can<BR>
be described as such). The period described in "Hard Times" is unique.<BR>
<BR>
>Book 3 also says that TL indicates "the general types or categories of<BR>
goods<BR>
>in general use on the world" and "the general ability of local technology<BR>
to<BR>
>repair or maintain items". Well, if you forget the requirement that local<BR>
>goods HAS to be made locally, it all fits quite nicely. As I said, we don't<BR>
>manufacture cars in Denmark, but we sure have a thriving car repair and<BR>
>maintenance industry.<BR>
<BR>
Please note that, as part of that description, it is stated that local<BR>
businesses or organizations might import things of a different tech level.<BR>
<BR>
>So I maintain that the best, that is, most useful, definintion of TL is<BR>
that<BR>
>it is what is in general use on the planet, not necessesarily what can be<BR>
>built on that planet, rather than what can be built locally with imports<BR>
>allowing substantially higher technology in _general_ use.<BR>
<BR>
This is, of course, only useful for describing what player characters see<BR>
when they land on the world. It says absolutely nothing about what worlds<BR>
may import things from another world, or what might be exported by the<BR>
planet. In order for the tech level statistic to be useful for deciding how<BR>
interstellar trade might work, it simply cannot work this way. If the<BR>
materials in general use on a planet are imported, these materials might be<BR>
much more expensive when player characters go to buy them. Alternately, if a<BR>
world exports high-tech devices, they might be cheaper. This is essential<BR>
for groups involved in merchant campaigns, and is useful in other sorts of<BR>
campaigns (in a mercenary campaign, the acquisition of spare parts and<BR>
ammunition might be required).<BR>
<BR>
Further, this method says nothing of "hybrid" societies, of which many<BR>
societies in the real world are. They may produce goods at a significantly<BR>
higher tech-level than what is used locally. Situations like those in South<BR>
America, Southeast Asia, much of China and many other places in the real<BR>
world are much more difficult to model. It may work with respect to modeling<BR>
Imperial Britain in the 18th and 19th century, but none of the markets to<BR>
which the country sold its exports. Similarly, it's difficult to model<BR>
places like modern America, Europe and Japan in which high-tech goods are<BR>
used generally, but many of these are imported from other parts of the world<BR>
where such technology isn't in general use.<BR>
<BR>
I think it's an interesting take on Tech Level, but I don't think it really<BR>
solves anything.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2000 18:59:03 -0500<BR>
From: "D. Smart" <dsmart@imagin.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Planet III software<BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry quipped:<BR>
> <BR>
> At 04:27 PM 4/9/2000 +0100, you wrote:<BR>
> >ISTR a post to the effect that Planet III released their<BR>
> > Traveller Navigator software into the public domain.<BR>
> > However, I can't seem to find the software available<BR>
> > anywhere on the web. Does anybody know anything about<BR>
> > this? Does anybody know where it's possible to find it?<BR>
> <BR>
> All the links are dead, and the gentleman seems to have moved.  I think<BR>
> it's dead Jim.<BR>
<BR>
"Hmm. Enterprise! Mr. Scott, did you hear that?"<BR>
<BR>
"Aye, sar! Ah'll bleed off a wee bit o' warp power t' thae<BR>
onboard replicators an' beam down a copy in no time 't all."<BR>
(Apologies for the non-Traveller reference but Doug started<BR>
it.)<BR>
<BR>
In other words, I've found all the install executables<BR>
sitting on my harddrive and have just confirmed they are<BR>
all not corrupt by running them on my laptop. I'll be<BR>
happy to kick a copy of 'em to anyone who wants them. <BR>
<BR>
HOWEVER...<BR>
<BR>
The install file for the Spinward Marches is 1.3Mb in size.<BR>
The other install files (for Deneb, Reft, Diaspora, and<BR>
Old Expanses sectors) run from 1.03Mb to 1.15Mb. Also,<BR>
the Planet III databases are for _TNE_. They are of <BR>
limited utility to anyone not running TNE.<BR>
<BR>
Of course, if you use TNE rules, you're gonna *love* these<BR>
files.<BR>
<BR>
If anyone wants a copy of these files, please, please do<BR>
the following:<BR>
<BR>
1) Request them by emailing me _off the TML_ at my personal<BR>
   address of:   warlock@imagin.net<BR>
<BR>
   I get the TML in digest form and usually just scan<BR>
   each email visually and delete it. If you reply to<BR>
   the TML rather than my personal address, there's a<BR>
   chance I'll miss your request.<BR>
<BR>
   If you pay connect charges (especially anyone outside<BR>
   the U.S.), let me know. We can work out a way to minimize<BR>
   your download time.<BR>
<BR>
2) Let me know which files you want. Again, there's 5 of<BR>
   them.<BR>
<BR>
3) Please be aware these files are on my home machine and<BR>
   I can email them only in the evenings (Texas time).<BR>
<BR>
That's it. If anyone want the files, let me know.<BR>
<BR>
BTW, does anyone other than me think it a good idea to post<BR>
these files on Downport or Freelance?<BR>
<BR>
David<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 09:57:33 +1000<BR>
From: "Alan Bradley" <alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au><BR>
Subject: re: Striker miniatures & other stuff<BR>
<BR>
(This is actually a quick "Hi honey, I'm home!" post, because I haven't<BR>
posted for a couple of weeks now.)<BR>
<BR>
Striker (1) is, of course, entirely theologically sound, and a route to<BR>
enlightenment.   Truly it is written: "Blessed are the Striker players, for<BR>
they shall inherit Aramanx."<BR>
<BR>
In other words, I am teeth-grindingly jealous that people are actually<BR>
getting it together enough to play the thing.  It also looks like I'm going<BR>
to have to play fantasy miniatures at Auran Big Weekend (the silly name the<BR>
local Con has adopted) in a couple of weeks time, instead of running<BR>
Traveller.  At least I won't be playing Warhamster.<BR>
<BR>
I've got some very rough notes together for my Landgrab world<BR>
(Phlume/Vilis).  When I get a bit of time, I'll type them in.  (When I get<BR>
a bit of time.  Hah!)  I've been having to deal with some of the issues<BR>
that were involved in the debates around Heya, mainly because I wanted to<BR>
crank up Phlume's biotech capabilities.  BtC has Phlume being a rather dull<BR>
"Beef & Wheat" producer, while I want to diversify it.  So Phlume will also<BR>
be a major producer of vaccines and biologically produced plastics.<BR>
<BR>
I had a bit of an unrelated inspiration a couple of days ago.  The Oekhsos<BR>
business has been around for donkeys' years now, but I'm not really aware<BR>
of anyone actually really doing anything with it.  So I started designing a<BR>
bit of a campaign that involves a bunch of PCs heading into the Extents in<BR>
order to meet Oekhsos, and find out what his game is.  I've found that<BR>
Galactic has a TNE version of Provence sector that has enough information<BR>
with it to turn it back into an MT version, but I will probably rework it<BR>
myself, since it doesn't use the modifications to Vargr worldgen that were<BR>
in the CT Vargr module.  Why Provence?  Because the Utovogh was developed<BR>
by a corporation based on Lair....<BR>
<BR>
Terms like "Utovogh" would, of course, be defined in the campaign, while<BR>
Oekhsos' secret will be straight out of MT Rebellion sourcebook, unless<BR>
smartie players happen to have read it.  (Hmm.  Not all TMLers will know<BR>
these things...  Tough! :-)  )<BR>
<BR>
All I need to do now is to design a good dozen or so Vargr oriented<BR>
scenarios.  Yikes!<BR>
<BR>
Alan Bradley<BR>
alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 02:29:05 +0200 (METDST)<BR>
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk><BR>
Subject: Just what IS TL? (Was: Notes on building Heya)<BR>
<BR>
Chris Seamans writes:<BR>
<BR>
>The TL mechanic is arbitrary in that it is an attempt to describe the<BR>
>technological advancement of the world in a single number. This is not an<BR>
>attempt to express the technological sophistication clearly, but to aid GMs<BR>
>in generating random subsectors, and to fit the representation of this<BR>
>sophistication into a short-hand code system, some of the components of<BR>
>which are *not* arbitrary. World Size, Hydrographic Percentage and<BR>
>Atmosphere Type are examples of components of the same system which are not<BR>
>arbitrary.<BR>
> <BR>
>Arbitrary has a dictionary definition of "based on or determined by<BR>
>individual preference or convenience rather than by necessity or the<BR>
>intrinsic nature of something".<BR>
<BR>
And I disagree with you that TL is arbitrary in the sense you appear to mean.<BR>
A TL represents a range whein the tools available to the people of a world<BR>
falls. As such it is no more (and no less) arbitrary than, say, hydrographic<BR>
score which also denotes a range of values.<BR>
<BR>
>I think that it's reasonable to say that the tech level rating system is<BR>
>based on convenience rather than the intrinsic nature of technological<BR>
>sophistication. <BR>
<BR>
I disagree. If you're restricted to work in bronze, your technological<BR>
options are limited to a certain range. If you can work iron, you have<BR>
other options, and, more importantly, bronze-working would seem to be<BR>
included in that range. With the ability to make steel you get yet more<BR>
options, but being able to make steel implies the ability to work iron.<BR>
I admit that as you go up in TL you lose some technologies (steel does<BR>
not include flint chipping), but they are replaced by the new technologies.<BR>
<BR>
>Some technologies are linear, some aren't directly linear. Some technologies<BR>
>(such as steam power and gunpowder) are based on breakthroughs, or<BR>
>discoveries. A society does not have to have a body of theory concerning<BR>
>gunpowder in order to discover gunpowder. <BR>
<BR>
No, but they do need to be able to work metal in order to USE gunpowder in<BR>
any form other than the petard.<BR>
<BR>
>A society does have to have a body of theory about steam to conceive of a<BR>
>steam engine, but that body of theory about steam doesn't rely on, say, a<BR>
>society's construction technology.<BR>
<BR>
No, but you can't build a powerful steam engine without the ability to make<BR>
steel. And if you can make steel, certain construction methods become<BR>
possible that isn't possible without it.<BR>
<BR>
>I picked these two examples because both of these are generally seen by<BR>
>people playing Traveller as defining TLs 2, 3 and 4. This can be extremely<BR>
>problematic.<BR>
<BR>
No, I think they work pretty well. It's not the gunpowder itself (that's a<BR>
TL 0 technology), it's the cannons and guns that define Weapons TL 3. And<BR>
toy steam engines can be built at TL 1, but useful steam engines needs<BR>
steel, which comes along at TL 4 (at least, I hope I'm not misremembering<BR>
my TLs; I inadvertently left the relevant books at home today). <BR>
<BR>
>...it would seem that many agricultural developments have little to do with<BR>
>machinery and devices, and much more to do with theory, and new ways of<BR>
>dealing with agriculture. It doesn't matter so much whether the plow is<BR>
>pulled by a steam tractor or a fusion tractor, but whether or not you<BR>
>planted peanuts there last season could be extremely important.<BR>
<BR>
_Hard Times_ makes the point that many techniques, once discovered, can be<BR>
"backdated" to earlier TLs. Crop rotation is (IMO) a TL 0 technique.<BR>
<BR>
>Imagine gun factories on a TL5 world that uses TL5 labor, but the factories<BR>
>themselves are TL12. Players visiting the world might very well not be able<BR>
>to buy the produced TL12 guns when they visit the world, despite the fact<BR>
>that these factories form the backbone of the economy of this planet.<BR>
<BR>
I don't see a problem. All the TL 12 machinery is imported. Technologically<BR>
it's completely divorced from the host society. The local society remains<BR>
TL 5.<BR>
<BR>
>>>As a game mechanic, it is abstract. It is removed from concrete reality to<BR>
>>>a large extent because it's difficult to map the technological progress of<BR>
>>>the earth by way of a single digit.<BR>
>><BR>
>>I have to disagree. It is highly imprecise, yes, but you can make some<BR>
>>deductions from it. Some technologies depend on other technologies.<BR>
> <BR>
>Then you actually agree that it is abstract. To say that something is<BR>
>abstract is to say that it *suggests* something else. <BR>
<BR>
No I don't. 'Abstract' means "a:disassociated from any specific instance",<BR>
"b:difficult to understand", or "c:insufficiently factual" (Websters). I<BR>
maintain that TL is associated with a concrete range of technologies and<BR>
that it is sufficiently factual to be useful.<BR>
<BR>
>This is precisely the reason I like the TL rating system, and the reason I<BR>
>defend it despite the fact that a naturalist system (i.e., breaking down the<BR>
>tech level into subgroups such as biology, gravitics, etc.) would likely be<BR>
>"more realistic".<BR>
<BR>
The MT rules specifically splits TL up into such sub-groups.<BR>
 <BR>
>Well, I'm getting at what makes a society TL6 and what makes a society TL2,<BR>
>and how a shift can be identified. This is an absolute necessity is you view<BR>
>tech levels in the way that you seem to. Does a steam-powered TL3 sweatshop<BR>
>become a TL8 sweatshop if the steam valves are regulated with a TL8<BR>
>computer? <BR>
<BR>
Individual businesses do not have TLs. Societies have TLs. The kind of<BR>
sweatshop you mention could exist in a TL 3 society, but only if the<BR>
computer is imported. It could also exist in a TL 8 society.<BR>
<BR>
>Does a TL1 clothing shop become TL3 if it adopts an assembly line approach?<BR>
<BR>
No. On Earth the assembly line approach wasn't invented until long after<BR>
it _could_ have been. But it is still a TL 0 technique (Note: This is my<BR>
personal version of TL. I never said the official version was completely<BR>
self-consistent).<BR>
<BR>
>The second type of list, which made its first appearance in that book, puts<BR>
>the tech levels as real world eras.<BR>
<BR>
That is examples. TL 4 corresponds roughly to the sort of stuff Europe had<BR>
during the 19th Century. TL 5 corresponds roughly to WWI, etc.<BR>
<BR>
>The second one has problems too. China discovered many things that were<BR>
>integral to Europe around TL3, but much earlier. Would China be a TL1<BR>
>society, or a TL3 society as a result? <BR>
<BR>
TL 3. It's the technologies that counts, not the dates.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
      Hans Rancke<BR>
University of Copenhagen<BR>
     rancke@diku.dk<BR>
- ------------<BR>
- - "You don't like the Goths?"<BR>
- -  "No! Not with the persecution we have to put up with!"<BR>
- -  "Persecution?"<BR>
- -  "Religious persecution. We wont stand for it forever."<BR>
- -  "I thought the Goths let everybody worship as they pleased."<BR>
- -  "That's  just  it!  We Orthodox are forced to stand around and<BR>
   watch Arians  and Monophysites  and Nestorians  and Jews going<BR>
   about  their  business  unmolested,   as  if  they  owned  the<BR>
   country. If that isn't persecution, I'd like to know what is!"<BR>
<BR>
                -Martin Padway and stranger in bar in<BR>
                         "Lest Darkness Fall"<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2000 20:28:45 EDT<BR>
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Smart weapons <BR>
<BR>
Make the Secret Service Presidential Protection unit adopt them first...:-)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2000 16:35:48 -0700<BR>
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)<BR>
Subject: Re: RS<BR>
<BR>
>From: Keith Johnson <keithalanjohnson@home.com><BR>
>Subject: Re: RS<BR>
...<BR>
>All things being equal, I agree with Dom.  If there was a significant <BR>
>amount of stock left over, it probably would have gone through the <BR>
>distribution chain already.<BR>
<BR>
  FWIW, I suspect that most of the stock disappeared via his mail-order<BR>
business (at, IMHO, somewhat inflated prices).<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2000 16:05:56 -0800<BR>
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re Fuel Cell Debate<BR>
<BR>
>> Only in FF&S. Fuel cells are one of the areas where FF&S didn't crib MT's<BR>
>> tables. Perhaps it should have. (MT Fuel Cells, at TL<12, burn .4L/hour at<BR>
>> .1 KL of fuel cell, producing .9MW, for Cr2000 and .165 tons; TL 13-14,<BR>
>> they produce 1.35MW and mass .12375 Tons; TL 15 produces 2.7MW at mass<BR>
>> 0.0825 Tm; at TL 15, they produce 3.15MW and mass 0.066 Tm (Yes, only<BR>
>> 66kg!).<BR>
><BR>
>Are you sure of these figures Will, maybe you converted<BR>
>them to power per kl where the table gives power per 0.1 kl?<BR>
>My 1st & 2nd printings both give power outputs of 0.1 times<BR>
>these figures - 0.09 MW at TL's less than or equal to 12,<BR>
>0.135 MW at TL 13 &14, 0.27 MW at TL 15 and 0.315 MW at TL 16+.<BR>
>for a 0.1 kl cell [MT Ref Manual p 64]. Did you mistake a<BR>
>decimal point or have these tables been errataed somewhere I<BR>
>am unaware of?<BR>
Sorry. Missed a decimal point.  other figures are accurate.<BR>
<BR>
BTW, the table in MT is neither by KL nor by weight nor by any other<BR>
convinient measure. It lists 9 sizes ranging from 10kW to 90Kw;<BR>
Corresponding volumes are 20l to 100l, 20kg to 165kg,<BR>
<BR>
William F. Hostman  |  "Smith & Wesson: THe original Point and Click<BR>
interface!"<BR>
Aramis 0602 C55A364-C S kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge-<BR>
533<BR>
aramis@gci.net http://home.gci.net/~aramis Vilani: uilamaanamti sirohbrankilin<BR>
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn- t4-- tt+ to- tg-- ru+ ge 3i+ c+ jt-() au+ st- ls<BR>
pi+() ta+ he+(-) kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge- pi+<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2279<BR>
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Traveller-digest       Sunday, April 9 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2280<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Smart weapons<BR>
Re Misjump Nets<BR>
[none]<BR>
Re: Vaya Con Dios class ship<BR>
Re: Farmers and output<BR>
Re: Striker miniatures<BR>
Forine history<BR>
Re: Astronomy in the 57th Century<BR>
Scale in Space<BR>
Re: Adventure, I got an Adventure, Yee Ha etc<BR>
re: Striker miniatures & other stuff<BR>
Re: Traveller is the #1 RPG, but only barely...<BR>
Re: That pesky TL definition<BR>
Re: Astronomy in the 57th Century<BR>
Re: Basic Economics (was Re: Astronomy in the 57th Century)<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2000 20:31:10 EDT<BR>
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Smart weapons<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 4/9/00 5:08:42 PM !!!First Boot!!!, <BR>
shadow@krypton.rain.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<< I fully expect that before this sort of "safety feature" even becomes<BR>
 widespread we'll see a lawsuit when someone dies because they<BR>
 *couldn't* get the gun to fire.<BR>
  >><BR>
<BR>
I can see EVERY Police union in the United States suing NOT to be issued with <BR>
"smart" weapons (the ultimate oxymoron...)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2000 16:19:31 -0800<BR>
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re Misjump Nets<BR>
<BR>
>Well, this might an explanation, but then one could ask: What is the<BR>
>difference between a deliberate misjump and an accidental misjump? I mean,<BR>
>wouldn't it be enough to keep logs of everything that happens during jump<BR>
>preparation etc. and when you experience a misjump, follow the log a as an<BR>
>instruction for a new jump?<BR>
><BR>
because the log will never have the full state variables of the entire<BR>
craft, said logs will never be fully able to compensate.<BR>
<BR>
Let us assume that a jump course is dependant upon 20,000 variables, most<BR>
of which are on the order of 1Gb each. That's 20 Tb of data which MUST BE<BR>
GATHERED at the instant of execution. If most of them vary by position in<BR>
N-SPace, good luck keeping them up to date. If there are temporal<BR>
calculations, you're screwed then: we still only know how to go one way on<BR>
the 4th dimension of N-space.<BR>
<BR>
Now, i know jump-tapes are cannon. However, they expired (within a month,<BR>
IIRC). They were not exactly off-the-shelf, and (IIRC) they increased<BR>
misjump chance. I figure they were just a fairly narrow set of parameters<BR>
that ran a compiler at jump initiation.<BR>
<BR>
Now, if we assume that those 20,000 variables are NOT of need the ones<BR>
which cause misjjumps, but that other untrackable variables exist, you will<BR>
never know which ones were responsible due to confounding. You'll be able<BR>
to say "Well, variable Asdf Uasd Rjsdn all are components, and Jsdf Kaqwe,<BR>
and Kwer tend to show up, but once in a while, none of them seem to be<BR>
responsible.<BR>
<BR>
And, when you pump that log's data in, you will not get any untracked data,<BR>
so your resultant formulation will not be the same as the original attempt.<BR>
(Chaos theory in action! Essentially, if you know the values of all the<BR>
variables, you've missed a few; if you know what all the variables are,<BR>
you'll never know all the values for them simultaneously; and no matter how<BR>
hard you try, there will always be one more "Barely significant" variable<BR>
you haven't accounted for.)<BR>
<BR>
William F. Hostman  |  "Smith & Wesson: THe original Point and Click<BR>
interface!"<BR>
Aramis 0602 C55A364-C S kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge-<BR>
533<BR>
aramis@gci.net http://home.gci.net/~aramis Vilani: uilamaanamti sirohbrankilin<BR>
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn- t4-- tt+ to- tg-- ru+ ge 3i+ c+ jt-() au+ st- ls<BR>
pi+() ta+ he+(-) kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge- pi+<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2000 16:23:36 -0800<BR>
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net><BR>
Subject: [none]<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
>Who said anything about a "specialized container ship"?<BR>
><BR>
>To use your own logic, demountable tanks cost money and cut cargo<BR>
>capacity. So if there is a "standard" design that can do two J-1s<BR>
>without refueling, and has the requisite cargo capacity, *that* is what<BR>
>will be used.<BR>
<BR>
Simple fix: a pure cargo subbie: Replace the passenger SR's and Low Berths<BR>
with fuel tankage. Still a 200Td Cargo Bay. Still a 400Td Subbie Hull.<BR>
<BR>
William F. Hostman  |  "Smith & Wesson: THe original Point and Click<BR>
interface!"<BR>
Aramis 0602 C55A364-C S kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge-<BR>
533<BR>
aramis@gci.net http://home.gci.net/~aramis Vilani: uilamaanamti sirohbrankilin<BR>
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn- t4-- tt+ to- tg-- ru+ ge 3i+ c+ jt-() au+ st- ls<BR>
pi+() ta+ he+(-) kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge- pi+<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 01:28:07 +0100<BR>
From: "Nick Bradbeer" <nickb@ndirect.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: Vaya Con Dios class ship<BR>
<BR>
> >2.  Long legs.  In addition to the J2 drive, this 100 dton ship carries<BR>
> >an extra 50 dtons of fuel (that's five extra parsecs range).  The ship<BR>
> >also carries a fuel purification plant and scoops.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
I was intrigued (and impressed) as to how you could make a ship so cheap, so<BR>
I downloaded the design and had a look at it.<BR>
<BR>
Running it through Antti's FFS1 spreadsheet, I can fit all the components in<BR>
the hull (for the F21-2), but the price comes to 41 MCr. Of that, 18MCr is<BR>
the three TL-15 computers, and another 12.6 MCr is the jump drive. Using<BR>
Antti's built-in profitability calculator, the ship will need exactly 16<BR>
years to pay for itself (compared to 6 and a half for the Trabbie) assuming<BR>
optimal cargo loads.<BR>
<BR>
Running it through Andrew Akins' sheet, it still seems to come to 23.6 MCr<BR>
(After your 10% discount.) Not sure what I'm doing wrong - I'll have a look<BR>
at the design sheet.<BR>
<BR>
Anyway, it appears the discrepancies between our designs' costs has arisen<BR>
from the difference between FFS1 and FFS2.  The playing field's not as level<BR>
as I thought it was.<BR>
<BR>
Nick<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 02:34:01 +0200 (METDST)<BR>
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk><BR>
Subject: Re: Farmers and output<BR>
<BR>
Tommy Grav writes:<BR>
<BR>
>Form WTH (TNE) page 27:<BR>
><BR>
>Each laborer is equal to one actual person in the colony's<BR>
>population. This individual person is not necessatily a member <BR>
>of the the workforce, however. Each laborer represents roughly<BR>
>one quarter of a worker, representing the members of a society<BR>
>who are too young or too old to work, or are otherwise<BR>
>occupied in non-worker roles (including full-time parents, etc.).<BR>
>Thus the colony currently has 800 industrial laborers, this <BR>
>number includes the families of the actual industrial workers,<BR>
>whos actual number is around 200.<BR>
> <BR>
>So a family of a farmer will be 4 laborers and will in the<BR>
>best case scenario above produce 9000 rations. <BR>
 <BR>
That's not how I interpret it. A farmer's family will be 4 people, one<BR>
of which works. Assuming your best case scenario above is correct, he<BR>
would produce 2250 rations (that still sounds like far too much, but I<BR>
may have missed something).<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
      Hans Rancke<BR>
University of Copenhagen<BR>
     rancke@diku.dk<BR>
- ------------<BR>
		"Certainly not,' Gub-Gub retorted.'Vermicelli Minestrone<BR>
		was a poet - a famous food poet. He married Tabby Ochre.<BR>
		It was a runaway match. But she stuck to him through thick<BR>
		and thin. People said she was a colourless individual and<BR>
		would stick to anything. But he loved her dearly and they<BR>
		were very happy. They had two children - Pilaf and Maca-<BR>
		roni. He was a great man, was Minestrone. His library con-<BR>
		sisted of nothing but cookery books -  cookery books of<BR>
		every age and of every language. But he wrote some beauti-<BR>
		ful verses. His Spaghetti Sonnets, his Hominy Homilies, his<BR>
		Farina Fantasies - well, you should read them. You would<BR>
		never say again there was no romance in food.'<BR>
		   'It's a sort of cereal story,' groaned Jip."<BR>
<BR>
			   --- Hugh Lofting's "Doctor Dolittle's Caravan"<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2000 16:45:24 -0700<BR>
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Striker miniatures<BR>
<BR>
  FWIW, I'm mostly just curious, as being in the Great White North -<BR>
while more convenient than Alaska - is kinda limiting :>  OTOH, I do<BR>
have lots of experience with getting cheap mini's in various scales,<BR>
a good collection of Trav mini's, and a lot of experience with the<BR>
Striker design rules (and a few designs posted to the TML around DEC/98).<BR>
<BR>
>It looks like we are doing the first version of Striker since more of<BR>
>our people have played that one.<BR>
<BR>
  It's also closely compatible to Snapshot & AHL :)<BR>
<BR>
>I'm not sure about the scale of miniatures.  I have some really good<BR>
>Traveller miniatures in 6mm, 15mm (the old Martian Metals ones), and<BR>
>25mm.  I'll see what everyone has the most of and go from there.  Since<BR>
>I'm going to start building some more terrain maybe the group could give<BR>
>me some feedback on miniature scale.<BR>
<BR>
  25mm is too rich (IMHO) unless someone already has a big collection -<BR>
if you prefer that scale I can recommend some good/cheap mini's.<BR>
<BR>
  15mm is ideal for AHL or "indoor" Striker (= AHL w/Striker upgrades) -<BR>
you can get enough detail to "individualize" characters, and the figs are<BR>
cheap enough that a collection adequate for decent scenarios need not cost <BR>
more than an evening at the pub.<BR>
<BR>
  6mm has some pro's & con's - figures are really only cheap if you get<BR>
to the right vendors*, although getting your hands on OOP Games Workshop<BR>
plastics can be very economical - as they mostly became "out-dated" and<BR>
"unofficial" rather than collectors items. OTOH, personnel definitely<BR>
fall into the "teensy-blob" category at this scale.<BR>
<BR>
  *again, I have URL's and comments here.<BR>
<BR>
  So scale is partly an issue of size of forces, engagement area, and <BR>
whether you focus on units or on indivivual personnel as characters?<BR>
<BR>
        Steven Hudson<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2000 19:51:24 -0500<BR>
From: tim@premier.net<BR>
Subject: Forine history<BR>
<BR>
Here is the first part of Forine's history.<BR>
<BR>
History<BR>
<BR>
Though there is much to say about Forine history, this report focuses on <BR>
the high lights of its history.  It leaves out the civil wars, and the plagues <BR>
that swept across the world in its 2000-year history.  The effort of <BR>
individuals such as Joseph von Rictor the engineer in charge of the HCP <BR>
and others who strife and hard work created this world are also left out. <BR>
<BR>
Ancient History:<BR>
<BR>
The history of Forine begins with the first settlers from Terra around <BR>
1200 as they moved through the Spinward Marches coreward.  On this <BR>
young planet of ice, the settlers found a strange mixture of beauty and <BR>
wealth.  Though small in number, the settlers made a home for <BR>
themselves in what would become the great city of Eisberg.   This <BR>
settlement would disappear from the records, like so many, with the <BR>
coming of the Longnight.<BR>
<BR>
In 172 the first Sword Worlders arrived on Forine, to discover a thriving <BR>
civilization using a mixture of rediscovered and Jerry rigged technology.  <BR>
With the ever increasing encounters with Darrians the Sword Worlders <BR>
turned their attention to Forine and other worlds in the area, so that by <BR>
the fall of the Sacnoth Dominate, Forine was under full Sword World <BR>
control.<BR>
<BR>
From 160-400 Forine passed in and out of consecutive Sword World <BR>
control as one dominate collapsed after another.  In these years, the <BR>
worlds culture took became more and more like the Sword Worlds.  The <BR>
great city of Eisberg now extended well into the mountain ranges <BR>
surrounding the Spiegel Ocean.  During this period, Hellmund erupted in <BR>
281causing massive damage to the city.  Because of this damage and <BR>
other eruptions, the government began in 387a massive engineering <BR>
project to tame the terror.  <BR>
<BR>
Over the next five hundred years Forines population, wealth and culture <BR>
continued to grow.  In 570, the population reached its first billion.  In <BR>
order to feed this growing population the government under took <BR>
another massive projecta serious of massive domed farms.  These <BR>
farms have grown to cover most of the southern polar region.   The <BR>
government finally declared the Hellmund control project a success in <BR>
720.  The HCP long reticuled for its hundred billion credit cost overrun <BR>
and over a century and half delay, proved its worth in 830.  It was than <BR>
that a massive explosion was contained and fed into the Spiegel Ocean.  <BR>
<BR>
Though the wealth of the world grew during this time, it was not immune <BR>
to the interstellar wars that raged around it.  Forine was taken twice in the <BR>
by Imperial forces, it was even  declared an Arbellatra Captured World.  <BR>
Though Forine returned to formal Sword World control its people now <BR>
saw themselves more and more independent from Sword Worlders, so <BR>
that by the dissolution of the Trilateral Alliance in 848 Forine declared its <BR>
independence.  After a two and half year war, Forine forces defeated the <BR>
last of the Sword Worlder expeditions, to achieve their formal <BR>
independence.  <BR>
<BR>
The next 300 years saw all of Forines pass efforts began to pay off as <BR>
the worlds fortunes grew at a tremendous rate.  The population which in <BR>
570 reached its one billion mark climbed to over 5 billion forcing the <BR>
people to finally look off world for agriculture goods.  As the Imperium <BR>
moved into the subsector, now known as District 268, Forine took <BR>
advantage of their past Imperium ties to become a center of trade <BR>
between the Sword Worlds and the Imperium.  To celebrate their 200 <BR>
anniversary of freedom, the planet built a huge Starport on land <BR>
reclaimed by the HCP.  This massive A class 5 starport had no rival <BR>
within the subsector.   Left untouched by the 3rd Frontier War, and facing <BR>
massive population problems, Forine in 1081 took advantage of the <BR>
confusion of the 4th Frontier War to claim Elixabeth for their own.  This <BR>
move ruffled Imperial feathers and set the stage for the disaster to come.<BR>
Tim Reynolds<BR>
tim@premier.net <BR>
225-334-5063<BR>
- ------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
Getting an education was a bit like a communicable <BR>
sexual disease.  It made you unsuitable for <BR>
a lot of jobs and then you had the urge to pass it on.<BR>
<BR>
Terry Pratchett <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2000 16:46:35 -0800<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Astronomy in the 57th Century<BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith <smithw@hartwick.edu> wrote<BR>
<BR>
> Peter Newman wrote:<BR>
> >Then they would be called guidelines, not rules. <BR>
> <BR>
> In an RPG, "rule" is synonymous with "guideline".  The only caveat to<BR>
> this is when two people have to decide what they're arguing about.<BR>
<BR>
"A referee deals with situations that the rules may not cover."<BR>
[MT Players Manual p. 6]<BR>
<BR>
Since the canon text explicitly states that a Referee "deals<BR>
with situations the rules may not cover" and does not state<BR>
"A Referee deals with whatever he feels like dealing with."<BR>
this is a clear statement that anything the rules do cover<BR>
ought not to be modified by the referee.<BR>
  <BR>
> Peter again:<BR>
> >Players must be free to ruthlessly exploit opportunities for profit that the<BR>
> >rules give them.<BR>
> <BR>
> Fair enough. The referee must be free to ruthlessly exploit opportunities<BR>
> for bleeding the player's wallets dry that the rules, common sense,<BR>
> his campaign setting and his imagination provides.<BR>
<BR>
No he must not and is not.<BR>
<BR>
Canon states "And as the term _referee_  implies, a referee<BR>
serves as an "impartial expert" for dealing with situations the<BR>
rules may not cover." [MT Referee's Manual  p. 5]<BR>
<BR>
This is an explicit statement from the designers of MT that<BR>
the Referee ought to be impartial. If the Referee chooses<BR>
to attempt to bleed the players dry he is no longer impartial.<BR>
If the designers had wanted the Referee to be partial they<BR>
would have called him the Storyteller not the Referee.<BR>
(While the term storyteller had not appeared in RPG's AFAIK<BR>
when MT was published people were telling stories long before<BR>
MT.)<BR>
<BR>
> There is nothing in the rules to cover a rival corp buying up all cargos<BR>
> at a certain port, so that the players are left dry no matter what they<BR>
> roll on Admin tasks.  <BR>
<BR>
The cargo acquisition rules do not allow for this situation.<BR>
Therefore the Referee is not free to do this.<BR>
<BR>
> This situation has appeared in Traveller-published<BR>
> adventures.  <BR>
<BR>
Yes, so? Said adventures were published by the copyright <BR>
holder. They have the right to ignore the rules in favor of<BR>
a good adventure. The referee does _not_ have that right (a<BR>
design philosophy I am not necessarily in agreement with<BR>
but one that is clearly stated by the canon I quoted above).<BR>
Canon states that the Referee is "impartial" and exists to<BR>
cover situations the rules "may not cover". Since the<BR>
freight and cargo acquisition rules do cover this situation<BR>
the Referee is not free to modify them.<BR>
<BR>
> There is nothing in the rules to cover labor disputes<BR>
> that shut down the loading dock the players are docked at, does this<BR>
> curtail the referee from using such a situation?<BR>
<BR>
The rules do cover this matter. The cargo acquisition rules<BR>
do not state that there is any possibility whatsoever<BR>
that once cargo has been acquired that it can not be brought <BR>
to the ship. Therefore no such possibility must exist or<BR>
it would have been provided for. <BR>
<BR>
Now if your players failed in their rolls to acquire any<BR>
cargo in the first place and you, as Referee, explained that<BR>
the reason they failed was because of the labor strike this<BR>
would be consistent with the rules.<BR>
<BR>
On the other hand the encounter rules do include possible <BR>
encounters with 'Workers', 'Rowdies', 'Thugs' and 'Riotous Mobs' <BR>
that could represent or include strikers. (My use of the above <BR>
terms, some of which are arguably pejorative, as possible <BR>
descriptions for strikers is not necessarily meant to denigrate <BR>
said strikers rather it represents my belief that the<BR>
encounter charts are functional and descriptive.)<BR>
<BR>
I also note that shutting down the labor docks at a Imperial<BR>
Port is arguably an Imperial Crime since the Imperium is<BR>
based on trade. However since trade wars, which also threaten<BR>
trade, are canonical I'd simply make labor disputes follow the <BR>
Imperial Rules of War rather than forbidding them.<BR>
 <BR>
> If I'm playing solitaire Free Trader with the CT trade rules, I can make<BR>
> a shipowner into a merchant line owner every time. That's because, IMO,<BR>
> the trade rules as written have a built-in bias towards the traders making<BR>
> money. <BR>
<BR>
They sure do. I have regularly taken characters from poverty<BR>
to wealth using trade rules. In one case I took a character from <BR>
Cr 11 at the start of the campaign to Cr 16,000,000 or so in less<BR>
than 2.5 campaign years, at least half of this gain was realized<BR>
using the trade rules as written and with a charecter who started <BR>
with no Trader or Broker skill.<BR>
 <BR>
> They **need** this bias, since any group of PC's on a trade ship<BR>
> will have a gamemaster to deal with - and one shot from a grumpy<BR>
> NPC starship can cost these PC's *millions*.<BR>
<BR>
The reaction of the NPC starship should be determined by<BR>
the Starship encounters table and possibly by the reaction<BR>
table.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2000 16:44:14 -0800<BR>
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Scale in Space<BR>
<BR>
Dale Gyles <gyles@mtn-webtech.com> qeried<BR>
>	In Brilliant Lances and Battlerider, the designers set a combat<BR>
>round to<BR>
>represent 30 minutes.  In Ct, the combat round was 1000 seconds.  This<BR>
>results in a distance scale of 10,000 to 30, 000 kilometers for 1 G thrust.<BR>
>	IIRC, they were two articles in Challenge magazine by Dave Nilsen and<BR>
>Frank Chadwick on lasers that covered all the engineering & scientific<BR>
>difficulties involved due to the long range at which lasers would be fired.<BR>
> They came up with gravitic lenses to overcome the focusing problem.<BR>
>	My question is, why pick such a long timescale?  Is it because of the<BR>
>distance at which ships can be detected?  Is it the need to get the 100<BR>
>diameter limit to fit on the playing area?<BR>
<BR>
Having tried to write space combat rules of my own, I've another theory.<BR>
You set the timescale so that player characters can do repairs within a<BR>
single turn. You then set weapons ranges based upon scale and whatever<BR>
level of reality modeling you wish. Then you explain any variances not<BR>
supoorted by the real  world.<BR>
<BR>
Seriously, tho' at reasonable scales, the 100d limit is going to be quite a<BR>
ways from the world. And CT was simple and playable, not particularly<BR>
realistic. By assuming massive numbers of shots, you'll secure a decent<BR>
number of hits in that time-frame.<BR>
<BR>
William F. Hostman  |  "Smith & Wesson: THe original Point and Click<BR>
interface!"<BR>
Aramis 0602 C55A364-C S kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge-<BR>
533<BR>
aramis@gci.net http://home.gci.net/~aramis Vilani: uilamaanamti sirohbrankilin<BR>
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn- t4-- tt+ to- tg-- ru+ ge 3i+ c+ jt-() au+ st- ls<BR>
pi+() ta+ he+(-) kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge- pi+<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2000 21:01:12 -0400<BR>
From: "Daniel Phelps" <phelpsd@gate.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Adventure, I got an Adventure, Yee Ha etc<BR>
<BR>
I should like to give it a look if you would post it to me.<BR>
<BR>
Dan<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2000 17:25:15 -0700<BR>
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)<BR>
Subject: re: Striker miniatures & other stuff<BR>
<BR>
>From: "Alan Bradley" <alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au><BR>
>Subject: re: Striker miniatures & other stuff<BR>
...<BR>
>Striker (1) is, of course, entirely theologically sound, and a route to<BR>
>enlightenment.   Truly it is written: "Blessed are the Striker players, for<BR>
>they shall inherit Aramanx."<BR>
<BR>
  "Although if they are equipped to a too-low TL standard, or are not<BR>
duly careful, they shall inherit it in plots not exceeding 1.5mx0.5m".<BR>
<BR>
>In other words, I am teeth-grindingly jealous that people are actually<BR>
>getting it together enough to play the thing.  It also looks like I'm going<BR>
>to have to play fantasy miniatures at Auran Big Weekend (the silly name the<BR>
>local Con has adopted) in a couple of weeks time, instead of running Traveller.<BR>
<BR>
  Lie, cheat, and plagiarize - the reff-ly virtues. Do the players need to<BR>
know that the scenario background is Traveller (and include some notes on <BR>
the hand-outs to sucker them in if they like it)? Heck, play some version<BR>
of Striker (house-rules or not) and call it a microarmour game. Or bring<BR>
out a few SFB ships with _Battlerider_ stats to let the players pretend<BR>
that it's a Star Trek/SFB game tweaked to be _playable_ (gasp)!  :><BR>
<BR>
>All I need to do now is to design a good dozen or so Vargr oriented scenarios.<BR>
<BR>
  "Fetch", "roll over", "play dead"?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 11:29:31 +1000<BR>
From: "The Roc" <roc@kewl.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller is the #1 RPG, but only barely...<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: Nick Bradbeer <nickb@ndirect.co.uk><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Sunday, April 09, 2000 1:07 AM<BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller is the #1 RPG, but only barely...<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> >I alone am roughly 10% of the total votes cast, although I spread them<BR>
> among<BR>
> >Trav, GURPS, and Ars Magica. (Until they imposed this new ID thing, my<BR>
> >scripts were casting ~75 votes a day for my benificiary of the moment<BR>
> >through a whole bunch of web anonymizing services.)<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> Err....without sounding too incredulous, can I ask why you bothered?<BR>
><BR>
> NB<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
<BR>
Oddly enough, I was thinking at about the mid-point of this poll, that<BR>
unless a poll result comes from a game or magazine publisher through<BR>
non-Internet means, that I probably will never believe that Traveller is a<BR>
#1 game system since the "old days" when it was an award winner.  I'll never<BR>
be able to tell new gamers it is and will always get them to question what<BR>
they read ("Don't believe everything you read") about it being "the best."<BR>
<BR>
I was a Traveller man from the old days, but I think this poll stuffing<BR>
proves people love the game and WILL lie to promote it... but I won't and<BR>
will speak honestly if asked about any online polls it is in front of.<BR>
<BR>
- -- The Roc<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 03:25:08 +0200 (METDST)<BR>
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk><BR>
Subject: Re: That pesky TL definition<BR>
<BR>
Chris Seamans writes:<BR>
<BR>
>Hans Rancke-Madsen says:<BR>
 <BR>
>>Finally, one of the points of _Hard Times_ is that the TL of many worlds<BR>
>>are NOT, in fact, locally sustainable.<BR>
> <BR>
>They are "locally sustainable" with respect to the world being part of a<BR>
>living, breathing and thriving interstellar community (if the Imperium can<BR>
>be described as such). <BR>
<BR>
But if that is what you think TL indicates, then it follows that a, say,<BR>
TL 5 society is unable (or possibly unwilling) to buy more sophisticated<BR>
equipment than TL 5 in quantity. Because if they did buy, say, TL 10 goods<BR>
from a neighboring system, they would have demonstrated an ability to<BR>
procure TL 10 stuff and would, ipso facto, be TL 10. And that makes sense,<BR>
too. TL is specifically stated to, among other things, represent the<BR>
capability of the society to maintain and repair equipment. And the lack of<BR>
ability to maintain and repair TL 10 equipment demonstrates that TL 10<BR>
equipment is not common in that society. As I said, the most sophisticated<BR>
ground vehicle we build in Denmark is the bicycle (TL 4?), yet we have the<BR>
ability to maintain and repair TL 7 cars.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>Please note that, as part of that description, it is stated that local<BR>
>businesses or organizations might import things of a different tech level.<BR>
<BR>
Sure. But it doesn't say that they do so in quantity. I would expect a<BR>
company that imports equipment above the local TL to have to import<BR>
spare parts and mechanics too. Whereas any equipment, imported or not,<BR>
that is of the local TL can be maintained by the locals.<BR>
 <BR>
>>So I maintain that the best, that is, most useful, definintion of TL is<BR>
>>that it is what is in general use on the planet, not necessesarily what<BR>
>>can be built on that planet, rather than what can be built locally with<BR>
>>imports allowing substantially higher technology in _general_ use.<BR>
><BR>
>This is, of course, only useful for describing what player characters see<BR>
>when they land on the world. <BR>
<BR>
I disagree, but even if it were so, isn't that a most important part of the<BR>
game? It IS a role-playing game rather than an economic simulation, you<BR>
know.<BR>
<BR>
>It says absolutely nothing about what worlds may import things from another<BR>
>world, or what might be exported by the planet. <BR>
<BR>
Yes it does. Both imports and exports are limited by the local TL. Not<BR>
completely, of course, but if the majority of the stuff used on a planet<BR>
is of a given TL, they either import raw material and build it themselves<BR>
or export raw material and buy it.<BR>
<BR>
>In order for the tech level statistic to be useful for deciding how<BR>
>interstellar trade might work, it simply cannot work this way. <BR>
<BR>
I'm certainly not convinced of that, but even if you're right, what is more<BR>
important? The day-to-day life of your PCs or the economic underpinning of<BR>
the game world (Mind you, I'm certainly not saying that it wouldn't be nice<BR>
if the economic underpinning was consistent. But if it does come down to<BR>
a choice between versimilitude and playability, I do consider playability<BR>
more important).<BR>
<BR>
>If the materials in general use on a planet are imported, these materials<BR>
>might be much more expensive when player characters go to buy them. <BR>
<BR>
More expensive, yes, since you have to add transportation costs. But much<BR>
more? I don't think so. If I understand _Far Trader_ correctly, it claims<BR>
that transportation costs generally don't add much to the cost of goods.<BR>
<BR>
>Alternately, if a world exports high-tech devices, they might be cheaper. <BR>
<BR>
No, if a high-tech factory is producing high-tech goods for export, the<BR>
locals will have to pay the same (less transportation costs) for them as<BR>
the manufacturer can sell them for on any other market.<BR>
<BR>
>This is essential for groups involved in merchant campaigns, and is useful<BR>
>in other sorts of campaigns (in a mercenary campaign, the acquisition of<BR>
>spare parts and ammunition might be required).<BR>
<BR>
You're quite sure that the effect isn't small enough to be ignored?<BR>
<BR>
>Further, this method says nothing of "hybrid" societies, of which many<BR>
>societies in the real world are. They may produce goods at a significantly<BR>
>higher tech-level than what is used locally.<BR>
<BR>
The words 'in quantity' is the key here. If you want to introduce a few<BR>
high-tech pimples on a low-tech world, go ahead. As long as the goods<BR>
manufactured there isn't used by the locals, visiting PCs are unlikely to<BR>
care or even know that it is there.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
      Hans Rancke<BR>
University of Copenhagen<BR>
     rancke@diku.dk<BR>
- ------------<BR>
"...all at once I UNDERSTOOD just WHY it is that men FIGHT each other.<BR>
I suddenly saw the ANSWER to all this SENSELESS VIOLENCE that afflicts us!<BR>
<BR>
But, like, I didn't write it down or anything and, like, y'know how it is -<BR>
next morning I had totally forgotten what it WAS, man."<BR>
<BR>
			"DR and Quinch get drafted" from _2000 AD_<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2000 18:54:39 -0700<BR>
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Astronomy in the 57th Century<BR>
<BR>
>"David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu> wrote<BR>
>  > Subject: Re:<BR>
>  ><BR>
>  > >  >From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu><BR>
>  > ><BR>
>  > >  >>IMTU the Zhodani have good astronomers, the Vargr<BR>
>  > >  >>are not really interested in astronomy (lack of patience,<BR>
>  > >  >>little opportunity for Charisma gain)<BR>
>  > >  ><BR>
>  > >  >Who says the Vargr don't have patience?  (Human propaganda! :-)<BR>
><BR>
>"these groups tend to be unstable. To a Vargr loyalties are<BR>
>temporary. In time a Vargr may move on to another group. Always<BR>
>he is seeking to improve his own lot by moving on to a position<BR>
>which enhances his own charisma and dominance. Vargr are easily<BR>
>insulted, Vargr are in many ways inconsistent, even unstable" -<BR>
><BR>
>CT Vargr Alien Module<BR>
><BR>
>This indicates to me that Vargr are less likely to be willing<BR>
>to stick around long enough to do good astronomical work. It<BR>
>also indicates that they are much less likely to spend years<BR>
>and vast sums of money building large telescopes in the first<BR>
>place. If they do build a large scope it is likely to not<BR>
>be well maintained when the group that built it shrinks or<BR>
>is conquered.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
I don't see a problem.  A lot of research is done by grad students<BR>
that don't spend more than a few years on the work.  Nor is it unheard<BR>
of for a team to switch leaders.  Ironically, since nobody has an<BR>
economic stake in basic research, it make it possible for teams<BR>
to be flexible.  The funding can come from the same institutions<BR>
as on Earth (and university chancellors can come and go too...)<BR>
<BR>
Nor do I see anything that says Vargr won't spend years someplace.<BR>
They stay someplace as long as they see it as beneficial then they<BR>
move on.<BR>
<BR>
>Nor are large flimsy telescopes safe in the<BR>
>combat rich environment of Vargr space. Nor are neighboring<BR>
>Vargr likely to respond well to the building of large<BR>
>scopes which can be used to spy upon them.<BR>
<BR>
A telescope isn't going to be that great for spying.  It is<BR>
slow (speed of light) and I'm not sure you are going to get<BR>
anything even as good as sneaking in small scout.<BR>
<BR>
>I also note that we need a hand wave to explain why all the good<BR>
>astronomical events are not observed and published about by the<BR>
>Vargr centuries before the data can reach the Imperium's coreward<BR>
>boundary. Otherwise it is harder to have human astronomers who<BR>
>can do much.<BR>
<BR>
Do stars really change that much in a 100 years.  The Vargr will<BR>
get the jump on a few major events, but not much more.<BR>
<BR>
>  > >  >I think they would have astronomy, but it would be more geared<BR>
>  > >  >toward what could make a splash in the popular media with less<BR>
>  > >  >emphasis on work that will never be appreciated except by a<BR>
>  > >  >few specialists.<BR>
>  > ><BR>
>  > >Who says astronomy has little room for charisma gain?<BR>
><BR>
>Vargr gain Charisma (according to the rules) through successful<BR>
>use of initiative. Astronomy in the 57th century will be IMO<BR>
>a fairly static science without much room for initiative and<BR>
>thus for Charisma gain. (On the other hand it also has little<BR>
>opportunity for Charisma loss and thus may be preferable to<BR>
>Walter Mittyish Vargr.)<BR>
<BR>
Actually, if there is room for discovery, there will be room for<BR>
charisma.  If there isn't, then it isn't much of a field anymore :-).<BR>
<BR>
______________________________<BR>
summers@alum.mit.edu<BR>
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 03:03:09 +0100<BR>
From: "Matthew Bond" <mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: Basic Economics (was Re: Astronomy in the 57th Century)<BR>
<BR>
Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
<BR>
>shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) wrote<BR>
><BR>
>> >> Who said anything about a "specialized container ship"?<BR>
>> >> if there is a "standard" design that can do two J-1s<BR>
>> >> without refueling, and has the requisite cargo capacity, *that* is<BR>
what<BR>
>> >> will be used.<BR>
><BR>
>> > there may not be a standard (i.e. cheaper due to class discounts)<BR>
>> > small merchant design that is built for 2 jump 1's.<BR>
><BR>
>> Hold it right there. It implies no such thing. All that it does is show<BR>
>> that the folks designing the ships in the books (which are frequently<BR>
>> not even legal designs under the rules!) didn't happen to think of<BR>
>> drawing up such a ship.<BR>
><BR>
>"The designs listed here are standard: that is, each ship type<BR>
>is mass-produced in shipyards throughout the Imperium, which<BR>
>provides economies of scale and saves the fees of a ship architect."<BR>
>[MT ImpEnc p 76]<BR>
><BR>
>The canonical text does not say that these designs and others<BR>
>we have not mentioned are standard it says "these designs"<BR>
>are standard. Therefore no other designs are standard unless<BR>
>another subsequent canonical product says that they are standard.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Peter, you are either a troll, or are *incredibly* obtuse...<BR>
<BR>
Yes, those designs are standard, but so are any other designs a referee<BR>
cares to come up with. Otherwise why do the ship design rules allow a<BR>
discount for subsequent vessels in a class? If a company shows you a<BR>
brochure of their 'standard' designs, do you automatically assume that no<BR>
other products by any other manufacturer can be 'standard'? Of course not.<BR>
<BR>
>Canon also indicates by including the Seeker, a modified<BR>
>type S Scout Courier, on its list of "standard" ships that<BR>
>modified ships are canonical [p. 81].<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
No one said they weren't.<BR>
<BR>
>> You *absolutely* cannot draw *any* inferences about what sort of ships,<BR>
>> vehicles or equipment may or may not be "common" in any Traveller<BR>
>> Universe based on which ones are included in the rules. Those are<BR>
>> *samples*, and their variety is strictly limited to what the designers<BR>
>> thought up and felt like including.<BR>
><BR>
>The rules do not support the contention that the included vessels<BR>
>are 'samples'. I am not aware of any introductory Traveller<BR>
>rules set which describes the vehicles it includes as 'samples'.<BR>
>Rather (as quoted above) the rules state that these designs<BR>
>are standard.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
To quote the source I have closest to hand:<BR>
"This supplement is a *partial* catalog and directory to ships of the<BR>
Imperial Fleets."<BR>
CT Supp 9: Fighting Ships p.4 (emphasis mine)<BR>
<BR>
>Moreover if you look at the 'Starship Encounters' section of<BR>
>the rules you will see canonical evidence that standard designs<BR>
>are the norm in the official Traveller universe. The Starship<BR>
>Encounters charts include Merchant, Civilian, Non Starship,<BR>
>X-Boat, Scout, and Naval Vessels. There are a total of 216<BR>
>possible rolls on this chart (1d6 for sub table, roll 2d6 for<BR>
>specific type). Of these 216 possible encounters only 15<BR>
>of them are with Non Standard designs. In any system only<BR>
>accessible by jump-2 or better only 6 out of 216 encounters<BR>
>will be with a non standard ship. This is clear canonical<BR>
>proof that less than 7% of all ships and less than 3%<BR>
>of all ships encountered in systems not on jump 1 mains will<BR>
>be non standard. If non standard ships were typical they<BR>
>would be encountered more often<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Ah yes, the designers thought long and hard about the ships to put on<BR>
encounter tables... "Shall we put on the ships we have already published,<BR>
and thus make the table a useable resource for hard-pressed GM's, or shall<BR>
we simple say small merchant / light Cruiser/ Battleship, and leave the poor<BR>
GM to design a suitable vessel on the spot".<BR>
<BR>
Of course, by your definitions, the published ships are de facto standard,<BR>
so no wonder you find a bias to 'standard' designs.<BR>
<BR>
>Given that non standard ships (by canon) do not get the<BR>
>class discount. Given that (by canon) standard modifications<BR>
>to standard ships do get the class discount. Given that<BR>
>(by canon) everything in the OTU is about money. Given<BR>
>that (by canon) few encountered starships are non standard.<BR>
>Given that (by canon) only the ships listed in the rules<BR>
>are canon. Given these factors I find the inference that<BR>
>the reason non standard designs are rarely encountered is<BR>
>that their total cost of operation is higher and thus they<BR>
>can not adequately compete with the standard designs.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Given that you are a troll...<BR>
<BR>
>> Merchants that can do two J-1s are *very* useful in a lot of places.<BR>
>> For example, it allows getting off a J-1 "main" occasionally without<BR>
>> any outside help. It also makes sense for trade in "frontier" areas or<BR>
>> near warzones (both can be *very* lucrative, albeit risky). Why?<BR>
>> Because if you jump in and discover someone waiting for you, you can<BR>
>> start a run to jump while fighting or evading.<BR>
><BR>
>Oh I agree, there is no doubt that ships which can do<BR>
>2 jump 1's are useful (See The Traveller Adventure). I<BR>
>am simply stating that given the lack of canonical standard<BR>
>ship designs that are built to do 2 jump 1's _and_ the<BR>
>presence of rules for adding extra fuel tanks (dismountable<BR>
>or collapsible) to existing designs this is a clear canonical<BR>
>statement that such designs are not standard built but<BR>
>are modified.<BR>
><BR>
>I also note that the presence of the Seeker (a modification)<BR>
>on the list of "standard" ships is clear canonical<BR>
>evidence that modified ships can be standard (i.e. that<BR>
>these modifications are done so frequently that shipyards<BR>
>have sufficient experience at doing them so as to be able<BR>
>to do them faster and cheaper, therefore qualifying the<BR>
>ship for standard discounts).<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
I have no problem with that, nor does anyone else, given sufficient volume<BR>
of standard modifications.<BR>
<BR>
>> > While the<BR>
>> > rules state that identical ships in a class cost 80% of<BR>
>> > that of the first ship (thus the 2nd ship is cheaper) I am<BR>
>> > not so sure that the first ship with fuel for 2 jump 1's will<BR>
>> > be built in the first place. The first ship in any class is<BR>
>> > competing with every other ship that has already been built.<BR>
>> > Since it is cheaper to take a regular jump 1 ship and put extra<BR>
>> > tanks in it than to design a ship with fuel for 2 jump 1's<BR>
>> > this seems more likely to me (your mileage may vary).<BR>
><BR>
>> There's a gaping hole in your logic. I suggest you compare the cost of<BR>
>> two ships. One that has the tankage for two J-1s built in. And another,<BR>
>> with tanks added. But you have to add the cost of the added tanks to<BR>
>> the second ship. And the second ship has to have the *same* cargo<BR>
>> capacity as the first *after* adding the tanks.<BR>
><BR>
>Modifications can be done at the standard discounted rate as<BR>
>proven by the MT Seeker (as opposed to the CT Sup 7 Seeker).<BR>
>Therefore since a ship that is scratch built to do 2 jump 1's<BR>
>is not standard (i.e. on the official list of standard ships<BR>
>that qualify for a class discount in the official Traveller<BR>
>universe) but modifications are it is quite clear that the<BR>
>modified ship will be much cheaper. Given that no ships designed<BR>
>for 2 jump 1's are on this list then no such designs are standard<BR>
>in the canonical Traveller universe. If you as a Referee choose<BR>
>to add more ships to the list of "standard" designs then you<BR>
>are changing the nature of the Traveller universe. While this<BR>
>is admittedly your prerogative as Referee such ships are not<BR>
>"standard" in the official Traveller universe.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Only because of your obtuse definition of 'standard'. And, of course, *you*<BR>
are the 'official' arbiter of the 'official' Traveller universe. If Marc<BR>
Miller happens to read this far down this post, I hope he will offer some<BR>
clarification as to who *is* the 'offical' arbiter <g>, and perhaps comment<BR>
on your overly pedantic definitions of 'standard' and 'canon'.<BR>
<BR>
>> Another assumption you are making is that the ship can *only* do J-1! A<BR>
>> J-2 capable ship can do the job easily, and under at least some<BR>
>> versions of the rules, it will *automatically* have the tankage<BR>
>> required.<BR>
><BR>
>> > Given that a jump 2 400 ton ship will cost MCr 12 more and<BR>
>> > have 4 tons less space for other components than its jump 1<BR>
>> > counterpart it is not worthwhile to use a Jump 2+ ship for<BR>
>> > this run.<BR>
><BR>
>> It's not as if there's likely to be a ship *dedicated* to making the<BR>
>> supply run. You'll use what's on hand. Which makes it more likely that<BR>
>> ship that *doesn't* need added tankage will get handed the contract.<BR>
><BR>
>The total cost of operations for the cheaper ship will be<BR>
>less. Therefore if given a choice of what ship to own, charter,<BR>
>lease, or ship cargo on shippers will (over a 1 jump distance)<BR>
>choose a jump 1 ship.<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
>On the other hand the canonical rules for chartering a ship<BR>
>(in MT) state that charters cost a flat Cr 900 per DT of<BR>
>cargo space + CR 9,000 per High Passage berth + Cr 900 per<BR>
>Low Passage Berth (per 2 week block) Since these rules do not<BR>
>require that a jump 2 (and thus more expensive) ship gets any<BR>
>better price in the charter market than its jump 1 counterpart<BR>
>the argument possibly should be made that the economic reality<BR>
>that cheaper ships are cheaper should be ignored.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
And if your destination is further than 1 parsec away you will have to stump<BR>
up again for another 2 weeks (as a 2 week block is one standard Jump plus<BR>
insystem transit times and refuelling etc). So for longer distances you will<BR>
preferentialy charter vessels with larger drives. As you are already paying<BR>
the vessel owner 90% of his max takings, without him having to look for<BR>
passengers, cargo, brokers etc it doesn't matter what the ship's total cost<BR>
was. If it cant make money on a charter then it never will realistically. Of<BR>
course subsidised or quasi-military designs do not rely solely on the bottom<BR>
line for survival.<BR>
<BR>
>No it does not. If the authors had envisioned such handling<BR>
>fee's varying based on cargo characteristics they would have<BR>
>mentioned it. The absence of such mention is a dismissal of<BR>
>said idea. The section is called berthing fee's, not cargo<BR>
>fee's. Therefore handling fees must be charged to every<BR>
>ship in port (without sufficient political juice or bribery<BR>
>skill to avoid them) not merely to ships actually carrying<BR>
>cargo.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Aha! Hoist by your own petard! As these 'handling fees' are explicitly<BR>
referred to in the 'berthing fees' section they can only apply to handling<BR>
the *ship* during the berthing process. ie, moving it by tug/tractor from<BR>
the landing site to its berth/hangar and vice versa. Thus there is still no<BR>
explicit reference to *cargo* handling fees, leaving the GM free to impose<BR>
such a system as he/she feels appropriate. <g><BR>
<BR>
<snip><BR>
<BR>
Matt<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2280<BR>
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Traveller-digest       Monday, April 10 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2281<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Far Frontiers Sector Data?<BR>
6mm Scale (was: Re: Striker miniatures)<BR>
Re: Vaya Con Dios class ship<BR>
Re: Striker miniatures & other stuff<BR>
Re: Striker miniatures & other stuff<BR>
OT Technological Decline<BR>
Re: Far Frontiers Sector Data?<BR>
Re: Astronomy in the 57th Century<BR>
Re: OT Technological Decline<BR>
Re: The Ludowick Gambit <longish><BR>
Re: Re Misjump Nets<BR>
Re: Re Misjump Nets<BR>
Re: Secrets of ACQ<BR>
Re : Notes on Forine<BR>
Re: Basic Economics (was Re: Astronomy in the 57th Century)<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2000 22:06:04 EDT<BR>
From: Qstor@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Far Frontiers Sector Data?<BR>
<BR>
Does anyone know of a write up of the UWP's for this sector? I didn't see on <BR>
on the CORE Web Site...Does any else know where they can be found?<BR>
<BR>
Thanks<BR>
<BR>
Mike<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2000 21:30:39 -0500<BR>
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: 6mm Scale (was: Re: Striker miniatures)<BR>
<BR>
Steven Hudson wrote:<BR>
<BR>
<<snip>><BR>
> <BR>
>   6mm has some pro's & con's - figures are really only cheap if you get<BR>
> to the right vendors*, although getting your hands on OOP Games Workshop<BR>
> plastics can be very economical - as they mostly became "out-dated" and<BR>
> "unofficial" rather than collectors items. OTOH, personnel definitely<BR>
> fall into the "teensy-blob" category at this scale.<BR>
<BR>
6mm has a couple of other advantages:<BR>
<BR>
1.  Availability of miniatures.  Players can use miniatures from WWII to<BR>
present, plus Battletech, Ogre, and Epic-scale Warhammer 40K, to<BR>
represent units in 6mm.<BR>
<BR>
2.  Representation of distance.  Ranges of weapons in Traveller are hard<BR>
to represent at greater than 6mm scale (even with a conversion of 1:10<BR>
or more) on an average game table (4' x 6' here in Baton Rouge, not much<BR>
larger elsewhere).  Given a set of range and movement parameters, the<BR>
larger the miniature scale, the harder it is to visualize the movement<BR>
and firing ranges.<BR>
<BR>
<<snip>><BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2000 21:45:16 -0500<BR>
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Vaya Con Dios class ship<BR>
<BR>
Nick Bradbeer wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
<<snip references to AuricTech F21-series>><BR>
> <BR>
> I was intrigued (and impressed) as to how you could make a ship so cheap, so<BR>
> I downloaded the design and had a look at it.<BR>
> <BR>
> Running it through Antti's FFS1 spreadsheet, I can fit all the components in<BR>
> the hull (for the F21-2), but the price comes to 41 MCr. Of that, 18MCr is<BR>
> the three TL-15 computers, and another 12.6 MCr is the jump drive. Using<BR>
> Antti's built-in profitability calculator, the ship will need exactly 16<BR>
> years to pay for itself (compared to 6 and a half for the Trabbie) assuming<BR>
> optimal cargo loads.<BR>
<BR>
Note that the F21-2 uses computers (non-fiber optic) that are _far_ from<BR>
State of the Art for TL-15.  The difference in cost is considerable<BR>
(three SotA comps in FF&S2 cost MCr 35.07, while the cheap machines on<BR>
the F21-2 cost only MCr 0.03).<BR>
<BR>
Also, note that the F21-series is designed as a budget people carrier. <BR>
This has two consequences:<BR>
<BR>
1.  The F21-series maximaizes profitability under T4 rules by using<BR>
individual Small staterooms to carry Medium Passage passengers.  There<BR>
is scarcely enough cargo capacity to haul the .1 ton of luggage per<BR>
passenger.  Thus, the F21-series manages a gross of nearly KCr 4 per ton<BR>
of "money-making" space (note that cargo hauling provides a gross of<BR>
only KCr 1 per ton).  Since "money-making" space (i.e., 21 Small<BR>
staterooms) is about 42% of total ship volume, it shouldn't be<BR>
surprising that the F21-series will make an immense profit under CT/T4<BR>
rules.  GT profits have not yet been calculated.<BR>
<BR>
2.  Since staterooms have far less mass than cargo spaces, the<BR>
F21-series can maintain 1-G performance with relatively small maneuver<BR>
drives.  This saves money on both maneuver drives and power plant.<BR>
> <BR>
> Running it through Andrew Akins' sheet, it still seems to come to 23.6 MCr<BR>
> (After your 10% discount.) Not sure what I'm doing wrong - I'll have a look<BR>
> at the design sheet.<BR>
<BR>
Did you download the F21-series spreadsheets from my site?  I use the<BR>
Akins spreadsheet for Excel 5.0.  While the spreadsheets on my site read<BR>
"version 3.2", the bug fix in Akins v 3.3 is already included (I<BR>
reported the bug in G-comp power use).<BR>
<BR>
<<snip>><BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2000 21:52:15 -0500<BR>
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Striker miniatures & other stuff<BR>
<BR>
Steven Hudson wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
<<snip>><BR>
> <BR>
>   Lie, cheat, and plagiarize - the reff-ly virtues. Do the players need to<BR>
> know that the scenario background is Traveller (and include some notes on<BR>
> the hand-outs to sucker them in if they like it)? Heck, play some version<BR>
> of Striker (house-rules or not) and call it a microarmour game.<BR>
<BR>
Heck, if you use Striker II, it _is_ a "microarmor" game, since Striker<BR>
II is based on GDW'a "Command Decision" rules.<BR>
<BR>
In other words, using Striker II, you can get WW II grognards into<BR>
Traveller, merely by providing them with the appropriate unit/vehicle<BR>
charts.<BR>
<BR>
<<snip>><BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2000 20:35:00 -0700<BR>
From: Kristian Miller <travellerne@3rd-imperium.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Striker miniatures & other stuff<BR>
<BR>
Black ICE wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Heck, if you use Striker II, it _is_ a "microarmor" game, since Striker<BR>
> II is based on GDW'a "Command Decision" rules.<BR>
> <BR>
> In other words, using Striker II, you can get WW II grognards into<BR>
> Traveller, merely by providing them with the appropriate unit/vehicle<BR>
> charts.<BR>
<BR>
That's a really good idea!  And probably the unit/vehicle charts already<BR>
exist for the WWII vehicles in the Command Decision game.  Does anyone<BR>
know if they are basically the same stats?<BR>
<BR>
Kristian<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2000 22:19:36 -0500<BR>
From: Shimmergloom <dragon@mhtc.net><BR>
Subject: OT Technological Decline<BR>
<BR>
About how many years would you all guess it would take a for a civilization to<BR>
fall from where we are now to pre industrial?<BR>
<BR>
In the setting I have in mind the Earth is ravaged by three wars waged here by<BR>
interstellar powers.  The end of the last war renders the star system too<BR>
dangerous for space travel and so they all abandon the system.  I want to set<BR>
the game in a time when mankind and the few aliens that were stranded here are<BR>
finally managing to pull out of the mess that they are in.<BR>
<BR>
- -------------------------<BR>
Earth first!   We'll strip mine the other planets later...<BR>
<BR>
dragon@mhtc.net<BR>
http://www.mhtc.net/~dragon/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2000 23:43:50 -0400<BR>
From: "Sword-Worlder" <swordworlder@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Far Frontiers Sector Data?<BR>
<BR>
I have a copy of the manuscript for the Far Frontiers Sector supplement,<BR>
which was never published.  Is there a particular world or subsector you are<BR>
looking for, or were you looking for a complete set?<BR>
<BR>
BTW, is there any interest in seeing this stuff get published?  Print or<BR>
electronic?<BR>
<BR>
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^<BR>
Colin Michael, WebDev<BR>
www.downport.com<BR>
The Traveller Domain<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: <Qstor@aol.com><BR>
> Does anyone know of a write up of the UWP's for this sector? I didn't see<BR>
on<BR>
> on the CORE Web Site...Does any else know where they can be found?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2000 20:54:28<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Astronomy in the 57th Century<BR>
<BR>
At 04:46 PM 4/9/2000 -0800, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>> There is nothing in the rules to cover a rival corp buying up all cargos<BR>
>> at a certain port, so that the players are left dry no matter what they<BR>
>> roll on Admin tasks.  <BR>
><BR>
>The cargo acquisition rules do not allow for this situation.<BR>
>Therefore the Referee is not free to do this.<BR>
<BR>
I have been reading this thread with increasing annoyance, but this took<BR>
the cake.<BR>
<BR>
To date, I am unaware of any Rules Enforcement Squad, either GDW, IG or<BR>
SJG, that will sweep down upon a Referee for writing such a situation into<BR>
his game.<BR>
<BR>
To wit:  I have written an adventure on Planet Fred.  I need the crew of<BR>
the merchant ship to be both stranded for a week, and in need of funds.<BR>
<BR>
So I create a cargo shortage.  The players, facing mounting berthing bills,<BR>
are met by a patron who offers them a short job on planet, paying enough to<BR>
cover their fees until the next cargo lots become available.<BR>
<BR>
Since this adds to the adventure, I consider this a good thing.  It gives<BR>
the players motivation, and a reason why they just can't jump out system.<BR>
If necessary, I'd fudge the final sale rolls.<BR>
<BR>
Remember how Han Solo got involved with the Star Wars crew?  That's story<BR>
advancement.<BR>
<BR>
>> There is nothing in the rules to cover labor disputes<BR>
>> that shut down the loading dock the players are docked at, does this<BR>
>> curtail the referee from using such a situation?<BR>
><BR>
>The rules do cover this matter. The cargo acquisition rules<BR>
>do not state that there is any possibility whatsoever<BR>
>that once cargo has been acquired that it can not be brought <BR>
>to the ship. Therefore no such possibility must exist or<BR>
>it would have been provided for. <BR>
<BR>
Well, since I wrote Strike! for JTAS #26, am I the final authority on labor<BR>
relations inside the Third Imperium?<BR>
<BR>
What you advocate is ROLL-playing, with the Referee reduced to a mere chart<BR>
monkey.  No adventures except those developed in a random fashion.<BR>
<BR>
Bollocks!  Impartial does *not* mean neutered!  The Referee is responsible<BR>
for developing a narrative, a story line that will be entertaining and<BR>
challenging for the players.  The fickle finger of Fate, in the hand of a<BR>
sold out warehouse or a failed drive is a *plot point* that is necessary.<BR>
<BR>
My God, the number of things not covered in Traveller canon.. when I began<BR>
writing Ground Forces, I discovered that almost nothing in canon existed<BR>
about them.  A few unit IDs, some organizational charts, but nothing about<BR>
the larger form of the Army and Marines.<BR>
<BR>
Does this mean that Traveller gamers couldn't use the Imperial Army?  No!<BR>
It was just left for the Referee to fill in.  When Ground Forces comes out,<BR>
you will see canon as writing by me, filter through Loren and Marc.  You<BR>
are free to use it or ignore as you feel fit.  You will not hurt my<BR>
feelings if you decide that the Imperial Marines board enemy vessels waving<BR>
hyperdense cutlasses.<BR>
<BR>
>Now if your players failed in their rolls to acquire any<BR>
>cargo in the first place and you, as Referee, explained that<BR>
>the reason they failed was because of the labor strike this<BR>
>would be consistent with the rules.<BR>
<BR>
And if they found a cargo?  What about the 20+ hours I invested in the Last<BR>
Stand At the Circle K Adventure when they load up on Machine Parts and jump<BR>
out-system?  <BR>
<BR>
Or am I to stop the game every time they roll a patron encounter, and go<BR>
off to sketch together an adventure?<BR>
<BR>
>I also note that shutting down the labor docks at a Imperial<BR>
>Port is arguably an Imperial Crime since the Imperium is<BR>
>based on trade. However since trade wars, which also threaten<BR>
>trade, are canonical I'd simply make labor disputes follow the <BR>
>Imperial Rules of War rather than forbidding them.<BR>
<BR>
I'll see if I still have a copy of Strike anywhere, and send it to you.<BR>
Trust me as a Teamster, making strikes illegal doesn't stop them.  The<BR>
disruption of regular action is the goal of the strikers.<BR>
<BR>
>> They **need** this bias, since any group of PC's on a trade ship<BR>
>> will have a gamemaster to deal with - and one shot from a grumpy<BR>
>> NPC starship can cost these PC's *millions*.<BR>
><BR>
>The reaction of the NPC starship should be determined by<BR>
>the Starship encounters table and possibly by the reaction<BR>
>table.<BR>
<BR>
And if on the first night of gaming, after hours of my preparation and<BR>
their character generation, the first starship encounter is a Broadsword<BR>
Pirate?  What then?<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry   Templar Agent at Large.<BR>
gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/sylea.html<BR>
<BR>
TravGeekCode: <BR>
tc+ tm+ !tn- t4@ ?tg+ tt@ to(CORPS)++ ru@ $ge++ 3i<BR>
ii+ au st+ ls+ pi kk+ so(++) va++ dr+ zh+ sw++ ?da<BR>
         <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 06:24:11 +0200<BR>
From: Ingo Heinscher <Hiroshi.Estigarribia@gmx.de><BR>
Subject: Re: OT Technological Decline<BR>
<BR>
At 22:19 09.04.00 -0500, Shimmergloom wrote:<BR>
>About how many years would you all guess it would take a for a<BR>
civilization to<BR>
>fall from where we are now to pre industrial?<BR>
><BR>
>In the setting I have in mind the Earth is ravaged by three wars waged<BR>
here by<BR>
>interstellar powers.  The end of the last war renders the star system too<BR>
>dangerous for space travel and so they all abandon the system.  I want to set<BR>
>the game in a time when mankind and the few aliens that were stranded here<BR>
are<BR>
>finally managing to pull out of the mess that they are in.<BR>
<BR>
At our current TL, I'd say that either the tech decline never happens or it<BR>
is all at once. But this is the "What is TL" discussion again. Personnally,<BR>
I find it usefull to assume that for every tech, there is at least one<BR>
skill. Any skill represented among the humans and aliens in your system<BR>
will be sustained if they have a need for it or a large enough group exists<BR>
to allow for not imediately usefull skills.<BR>
<BR>
IMVHO, the key is the individuals that make up the TL.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
"This was not meant to be an aggresssion against the Siru Zirka. But we had<BR>
to organize our affairs a bit more efficiently. To be honest, we have had<BR>
to do this for almost 300 years by now."<BR>
unknown Terran politician, -2398 Imp<BR>
;-) ingo heinscher <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 06:08:24 +0200<BR>
From: Ingo Heinscher <Hiroshi.Estigarribia@gmx.de><BR>
Subject: Re: The Ludowick Gambit <longish><BR>
<BR>
At 09:42 09.04.00 PST, Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
<BR>
[snip]<BR>
<BR>
>> Well, this might an explanation, but then one could ask: What is the<BR>
>> difference between a deliberate misjump and an accidental misjump? I mean,<BR>
>> wouldn't it be enough to keep logs of everything that happens during jump<BR>
>> preparation etc. and when you experience a misjump, follow the log a as an<BR>
>> instruction for a new jump?<BR>
><BR>
>In which case, *because* you are trying to produce a misjump, you<BR>
>disappear and are never heard from again. In other words, there is an<BR>
>"observer effect". <BR>
<BR>
That was not entirely wat I intended. Say, you log *every* jump that *all*<BR>
of the IISS and IN ships do. There will be some accidental misjumps among<BR>
them, and and some of these ships will be recovered, possibly with their<BR>
crew alive. YOu could then look up the logs and draw some conclusions. <BR>
<BR>
>> IMHO stating "It can't work because some reason prevents it" is not very<BR>
>> much SF-like. It fits for a Fantasy world with magic and all, but the OTU?<BR>
>> No, IMHO.<BR>
><BR>
>But that's the way *science* works. You can't fly by flapping your<BR>
>wings because there's a reason. The reason being the laws of<BR>
>aerodynamics. :-)<BR>
<BR>
:-) <BR>
Okay, when I read my sentence again  I must admit: You are right here. But<BR>
you now what I mean, don't you. I should have written "some_obscure_reason".<BR>
<BR>
>What sort of "law" may be involved? Quantum Physics. If you are<BR>
>"observing" the factors that cause a misjump, then the wave function<BR>
>collapses rather than being indeterminate.<BR>
><BR>
>Remember, we've got proof that quantum states really and truly *aren't*<BR>
>determined until observed. It's not a case (as was at one time put<BR>
>forth) that the states are actually already determined before we<BR>
>observe them, but just "hidden" from us.<BR>
<BR>
But we have also proof that the laws of quantum physics are not applicable<BR>
for anything but quantum particles (exp?). It is obvious that the<BR>
PC's/NPC's actions directly influence the jump and its outcome. These<BR>
action are the variables we have to track. <BR>
<BR>
>In any case, as I noted, I think this has possibilitiies because having<BR>
>the laws of nature preclude (successful) deliberate misjumps makes<BR>
>j-drive research harder, and also prevents PCs from trying to get out<BR>
>of tight spots with misjumps.<BR>
<BR>
My problem with forbidding deliberate misjumps is that the universe (any of<BR>
the two involved) don't know whether a misjump is deliberate or not. And<BR>
personally, I don't like the idea of the universe as a living, telepathic<BR>
entity. :-)<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
"This was not meant to be an aggresssion against the Siru Zirka. But we had<BR>
to organize our affairs a bit more efficiently. To be honest, we have had<BR>
to do this for almost 300 years by now."<BR>
unknown Terran politician, -2398 Imp<BR>
;-) ingo heinscher <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 06:20:02 +0200<BR>
From: Ingo Heinscher <Hiroshi.Estigarribia@gmx.de><BR>
Subject: Re: Re Misjump Nets<BR>
<BR>
At 16:19 09.04.00 -0800, William F. Hostman wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>because the log will never have the full state variables of the entire<BR>
>craft, said logs will never be fully able to compensate.<BR>
><BR>
>Let us assume that a jump course is dependant upon 20,000 variables, most<BR>
>of which are on the order of 1Gb each. That's 20 Tb of data which MUST BE<BR>
>GATHERED at the instant of execution. If most of them vary by position in<BR>
>N-SPace, good luck keeping them up to date. If there are temporal<BR>
>calculations, you're screwed then: we still only know how to go one way on<BR>
>the 4th dimension of N-space.<BR>
<BR>
Well, for us, only those variables are interesting that depend on the<BR>
actions of the crew, since all others (jump space astrography and the like)<BR>
are either untrackable or known to the crew as a base for these actions.<BR>
What we merely need is a bunch of holocameras taping the crew. Now imagine<BR>
we do that on every Imperial vessel. We should have some data pretty soon.<BR>
<BR>
>Now, i know jump-tapes are cannon. However, they expired (within a month,<BR>
>IIRC). They were not exactly off-the-shelf, and (IIRC) they increased<BR>
>misjump chance. I figure they were just a fairly narrow set of parameters<BR>
>that ran a compiler at jump initiation.<BR>
<BR>
Something completely new to me. (Again. <sigh> :-)<BR>
<BR>
>Now, if we assume that those 20,000 variables are NOT of need the ones<BR>
>which cause misjjumps, but that other untrackable variables exist, you will<BR>
>never know which ones were responsible due to confounding. You'll be able<BR>
>to say "Well, variable Asdf Uasd Rjsdn all are components, and Jsdf Kaqwe,<BR>
>and Kwer tend to show up, but once in a while, none of them seem to be<BR>
>responsible.<BR>
<BR>
If there are untrackable variables that significantly (i.e., more than the<BR>
crew's actions do) influence whether it will be a misjump or not, then we<BR>
must conclude that space travel via jump drive is a chaotic thing at all.<BR>
Youu see what this implies.<BR>
<BR>
>And, when you pump that log's data in, you will not get any untracked data,<BR>
>so your resultant formulation will not be the same as the original attempt.<BR>
>(Chaos theory in action! Essentially, if you know the values of all the<BR>
>variables, you've missed a few; if you know what all the variables are,<BR>
>you'll never know all the values for them simultaneously; and no matter how<BR>
>hard you try, there will always be one more "Barely significant" variable<BR>
>you haven't accounted for.)<BR>
<BR>
:-) <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
"This was not meant to be an aggresssion against the Siru Zirka. But we had<BR>
to organize our affairs a bit more efficiently. To be honest, we have had<BR>
to do this for almost 300 years by now."<BR>
unknown Terran politician, -2398 Imp<BR>
;-) ingo heinscher <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 06:20:02 +0200<BR>
From: Ingo Heinscher <Hiroshi.Estigarribia@gmx.de><BR>
Subject: Re: Re Misjump Nets<BR>
<BR>
At 16:19 09.04.00 -0800, William F. Hostman wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>because the log will never have the full state variables of the entire<BR>
>craft, said logs will never be fully able to compensate.<BR>
><BR>
>Let us assume that a jump course is dependant upon 20,000 variables, most<BR>
>of which are on the order of 1Gb each. That's 20 Tb of data which MUST BE<BR>
>GATHERED at the instant of execution. If most of them vary by position in<BR>
>N-SPace, good luck keeping them up to date. If there are temporal<BR>
>calculations, you're screwed then: we still only know how to go one way on<BR>
>the 4th dimension of N-space.<BR>
<BR>
Well, for us, only those variables are interesting that depend on the<BR>
actions of the crew, since all others (jump space astrography and the like)<BR>
are either untrackable or known to the crew as a base for these actions.<BR>
What we merely need is a bunch of holocameras taping the crew. Now imagine<BR>
we do that on every Imperial vessel. We should have some data pretty soon.<BR>
<BR>
>Now, i know jump-tapes are cannon. However, they expired (within a month,<BR>
>IIRC). They were not exactly off-the-shelf, and (IIRC) they increased<BR>
>misjump chance. I figure they were just a fairly narrow set of parameters<BR>
>that ran a compiler at jump initiation.<BR>
<BR>
Something completely new to me. (Again. <sigh> :-)<BR>
<BR>
>Now, if we assume that those 20,000 variables are NOT of need the ones<BR>
>which cause misjjumps, but that other untrackable variables exist, you will<BR>
>never know which ones were responsible due to confounding. You'll be able<BR>
>to say "Well, variable Asdf Uasd Rjsdn all are components, and Jsdf Kaqwe,<BR>
>and Kwer tend to show up, but once in a while, none of them seem to be<BR>
>responsible.<BR>
<BR>
If there are untrackable variables that significantly (i.e., more than the<BR>
crew's actions do) influence whether it will be a misjump or not, then we<BR>
must conclude that space travel via jump drive is a chaotic thing at all.<BR>
Youu see what this implies.<BR>
<BR>
>And, when you pump that log's data in, you will not get any untracked data,<BR>
>so your resultant formulation will not be the same as the original attempt.<BR>
>(Chaos theory in action! Essentially, if you know the values of all the<BR>
>variables, you've missed a few; if you know what all the variables are,<BR>
>you'll never know all the values for them simultaneously; and no matter how<BR>
>hard you try, there will always be one more "Barely significant" variable<BR>
>you haven't accounted for.)<BR>
<BR>
:-) <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
"This was not meant to be an aggresssion against the Siru Zirka. But we had<BR>
to organize our affairs a bit more efficiently. To be honest, we have had<BR>
to do this for almost 300 years by now."<BR>
unknown Terran politician, -2398 Imp<BR>
;-) ingo heinscher <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2000 21:05:19<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Secrets of ACQ<BR>
<BR>
At 11:19 PM 4/9/2000 +0100, you wrote:<BR>
>A question for those who know - you may have noticed that Derrick <BR>
>Jones and Matt Bond have been having a surreal conversation using the <BR>
>rules for ACQ and Penguins. But can anyone explain why Derrick <BR>
>prefers to eat unripened Penguins over cold, hot, custard and other <BR>
>varieties. ;-)<BR>
<BR>
Well, I can't answer that, but you're going to love the gift I'm bringing<BR>
Anne...<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 14:41:10 +1000<BR>
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re : Notes on Forine<BR>
<BR>
Sorry about the delay.<BR>
<BR>
Tim Reynolds wrote :-<BR>
> By reading both your post am right in <BR>
> thinking if I make Forine a young world and bring it much closer to <BR>
> its star than things would make sense?<BR>
Yes. Keep it outside the primary's 'snow line' (for an M8 V star, 0.16<BR>
AU) to get the icy bits.<BR>
<BR>
> If I do this then I would increase the tempeture, which, should alow <BR>
> for both the molton core and some free floating water if heated by <BR>
> the volcaneo or other raptures, or even the human heat idea right?<BR>
A molten core is due [in this context] to the presence of silicates (the<BR>
radioactive decay of potassium and other elements in those minerals).<BR>
	Very large bodies (gas giant sized) will be internally hot due to<BR>
pressure and temperature effects caused by gravity.<BR>
	The very low atmospheric pressure (max 0.09 atm) implies a boiling<BR>
point for water of about 50 degrees Celsius. There could be transient<BR>
bodies of surface water. Around volcanic vents would be the<BR>
logical and ideal place.<BR>
	'The Matrix' notwithstanding, the human body radiates about 1W<BR>
per kg mass (this could be increased by a factor of 3 to 4 with<BR>
strenuous activity). I'd exploit this to keep life support power <BR>
requirements down.<BR>
	A local environmental group could be opposed to the effect of<BR>
heat pollution on local geography <g>.<BR>
<BR>
> My next question is what will this do to the world's orbital period <BR>
> and rotation.  At 1 AU that should mean a 366 day orbit right?  <BR>
> Rotation should need not change?<BR>
As Leonard has pointed out, one of Kepler's laws applies :-<BR>
<from Jon Zeigler's excellent 'First In'><BR>
<BR>
Period = Square Root([Radius^3]/star mass)<BR>
<BR>
For convenience - period in years, radius in astronomical units, star<BR>
mass in solar masses ["sols"].<BR>
<BR>
An M8 V (there are no M9 Vs) has a mass of 0.063 sols.<BR>
<BR>
We don't know enough about the determinants of planetary rotation<BR>
(beyond lower limits, based on Newton's laws). So the rotation period<BR>
is fine.<BR>
<BR>
> Though I didn't <BR>
> think of the moons being made up of hydrogen/ helium 3.  Can <BR>
> these rocks then be mined for jump fuel?  <BR>
<BR>
These materials are borne in the solar wind, so any body with a scanty<BR>
atmosphere will be frosted with them. Hippidos will accumulate them<BR>
due to its size. Forine's atmosphere and small size may shield it<BR>
from this consequence of the solar wind.<BR>
<BR>
Helium-3 may be used in TTL < 12 fusion plants. It's not of much<BR>
use after that, when controlled proton chain and CNO cycle fusion become<BR>
possible.<BR>
<BR>
Robert O'Connor<BR>
Medico, Gamer<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2000 20:58:11 -0800<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Basic Economics (was Re: Astronomy in the 57th Century)<BR>
<BR>
Matthew Bond" <mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk> wrote<BR>
<BR>
> Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
> >"The designs listed here are standard: that is, each ship type<BR>
> >is mass-produced in shipyards throughout the Imperium, which<BR>
> >provides economies of scale and saves the fees of a ship architect."<BR>
> >[MT ImpEnc p 76]<BR>
> ><BR>
> >The canonical text does not say that these designs and others<BR>
> >we have not mentioned are standard it says "these designs"<BR>
> >are standard. Therefore no other designs are standard unless<BR>
> >another subsequent canonical product says that they are standard.<BR>
 <BR>
> Peter, you are either a troll, or are *incredibly* obtuse...<BR>
<BR>
I am simply quoting the rules as _written_. I fail to see why<BR>
this makes me a troll or "*incredibly* obtuse".<BR>
<BR>
The sentence clearly reads "the designs listed here are standard."<BR>
<BR>
It does _not_ say that any other designs are standard. For<BR>
another later design to be standard it must be officially<BR>
acknowledged as such by designers with the legal right to do<BR>
so. Otherwise they do not have the right to modify (for the<BR>
official Traveller universe) the MT rules as stated.<BR>
<BR>
> Yes, those designs are standard, but so are any other designs a referee<BR>
> cares to come up with. Otherwise why do the ship design rules allow a<BR>
> discount for subsequent vessels in a class? <BR>
<BR>
To allow for the possibility that a 2nd ship in a class might<BR>
be built and to accurately reflect the lesser costs of doing so. <BR>
The rules clearly state that the standard designs are "mass<BR>
produced in shipyards throughout the Imperium". By stating that<BR>
"standard" designs must be mass produced throughout the Imperium<BR>
and by giving a list of such standard ships they are specifically<BR>
stating that in the OTU these ships (and these ships only)<BR>
are standard.<BR>
<BR>
> If a company shows you a<BR>
> brochure of their 'standard' designs, do you automatically assume that no<BR>
> other products by any other manufacturer can be 'standard'? Of course not.<BR>
<BR>
The rules are not written by any one company they are written<BR>
by game designers. Their design is a working model of the fictional<BR>
universe they have created. As<BR>
<BR>
> >Canon also indicates by including the Seeker, a modified<BR>
> >type S Scout Courier, on its list of "standard" ships that<BR>
> >modified ships are canonical [p. 81].<BR>
 <BR>
> No one said they weren't.<BR>
> <BR>
> >> You *absolutely* cannot draw *any* inferences about what sort of ships,<BR>
> >> vehicles or equipment may or may not be "common" in any Traveller<BR>
> >> Universe based on which ones are included in the rules. Those are<BR>
> >> *samples*, and their variety is strictly limited to what the designers<BR>
> >> thought up and felt like including.<BR>
> ><BR>
> >The rules do not support the contention that the included vessels<BR>
> >are 'samples'. I am not aware of any introductory Traveller<BR>
> >rules set which describes the vehicles it includes as 'samples'.<BR>
> >Rather (as quoted above) the rules state that these designs<BR>
> >are standard.<BR>
 <BR>
> To quote the source I have closest to hand:<BR>
> "This supplement is a *partial* catalog and directory to ships of the<BR>
> Imperial Fleets."<BR>
> CT Supp 9: Fighting Ships p.4 (emphasis mine)<BR>
<BR>
That book is predominantly a discussion of Naval ships. If <BR>
you examine the Starship Encounters table you will note that <BR>
the Naval Ship table is the _only_ table that does not have<BR>
the "nonstandard" category on it. Moreover the Naval Ship<BR>
encounter table (unlike the other 5 tables) does not list<BR>
specific classes of ships, rather it lists Naval Ships by<BR>
their role and size (Escort (5,000 tons), Cruiser (20,000<BR>
tons) etc). This table therefore clearly establishes that <BR>
the term "standard" does not apply to naval ships in the same<BR>
way that it applies to commercial ships. Since MT was designed<BR>
after CT Sup 9 it is possible (and IMHO logical) to argue<BR>
that the facts about the OTU presented in it are incorporated<BR>
in MT.<BR>
<BR>
> >Moreover if you look at the 'Starship Encounters' section of<BR>
> >the rules you will see canonical evidence that standard designs<BR>
> >are the norm in the official Traveller universe. The Starship<BR>
> >Encounters charts include Merchant, Civilian, Non Starship,<BR>
> >X-Boat, Scout, and Naval Vessels. There are a total of 216<BR>
> >possible rolls on this chart (1d6 for sub table, roll 2d6 for<BR>
> >specific type). Of these 216 possible encounters only 15<BR>
> >of them are with Non Standard designs. In any system only<BR>
> >accessible by jump-2 or better only 6 out of 216 encounters<BR>
> >will be with a non standard ship. This is clear canonical<BR>
> >proof that less than 7% of all ships and less than 3%<BR>
> >of all ships encountered in systems not on jump 1 mains will<BR>
> >be non standard. If non standard ships were typical they<BR>
> >would be encountered more often<BR>
 <BR>
> Ah yes, the designers thought long and hard about the ships to put on<BR>
> encounter tables... "Shall we put on the ships we have already published,<BR>
> and thus make the table a useable resource for hard-pressed GM's, or shall<BR>
> we simple say small merchant / light Cruiser/ Battleship, and leave the poor<BR>
> GM to design a suitable vessel on the spot".<BR>
<BR>
From a game design point of view this is in fact what they<BR>
probably did.<BR>
<BR>
However from a Traveller Canon point of view they arranged the<BR>
encounter tables so that the designs which they clearly stated <BR>
a few pages earlier were standard would in fact be the most <BR>
commonly encountered ship designs. Obviously since these designs<BR>
are "The designs listed here are standard: that is, each ship type<BR>
is mass-produced in shipyards throughout the Imperium..." [MT ImpEnc <BR>
p. 76]. it is only logical that they would form the bulk of the<BR>
Starship Encounter Table's.<BR>
<BR>
> Of course, by your definitions, the published ships are de facto standard,<BR>
> so no wonder you find a bias to 'standard' designs.<BR>
<BR>
Not my definitions but the clear wording of the sentence.<BR>
"These designs are standard" is what it says not "These designs<BR>
and some others we have not bothered to list here." The difference<BR>
should be apparent.<BR>
<BR>
> >Given that non standard ships (by canon) do not get the<BR>
> >class discount. Given that (by canon) standard modifications<BR>
> >to standard ships do get the class discount. Given that<BR>
> >(by canon) everything in the OTU is about money. Given<BR>
> >that (by canon) few encountered starships are non standard.<BR>
> >Given that (by canon) only the ships listed in the rules<BR>
> >are canon. Given these factors I find the inference that<BR>
> >the reason non standard designs are rarely encountered is<BR>
> >that their total cost of operation is higher and thus they<BR>
> >can not adequately compete with the standard designs.<BR>
 <BR>
> Given that you are a troll...<BR>
<BR>
Assumes facts not in evidence. I have a 4+ year history of<BR>
postings to this list. In said history you are only about the<BR>
3rd person to assume that I am trolling. Most everyone else <BR>
(apparently) thinks that I simply read more into the letter<BR>
of the rules than they choose to do.<BR>
<BR>
> >> Merchants that can do two J-1s are *very* useful in a lot of places.<BR>
<BR>
> >there is no doubt that ships which can do 2 jump 1's are <BR>
> >useful (See The Traveller Adventure), given the lack of <BR>
> >canonical standard ship designs that are built to do 2 jump <BR>
> >1's this is a clear canonical statement that such designs <BR>
> >are not standard built but are modified.<BR>
<BR>
> >> > the rules state that identical ships in a class cost 80% of<BR>
> >> > that of the first ship (thus the 2nd ship is cheaper) I am<BR>
> >> > not so sure that the first ship with fuel for 2 jump 1's will<BR>
> >> > be built in the first place. it is cheaper to take a <BR>
> >> > regular jump 1 ship and put extra tanks in it <BR>
<BR>
> >> There's a gaping hole in your logic. I suggest you compare the cost of<BR>
> >> two ships. One that has the tankage for two J-1s built in. And another,<BR>
> >> with tanks added. <BR>
<BR>
> >Modifications can be done at the standard discounted rate as<BR>
> >proven by the MT Seeker since a ship that is scratch built to <BR>
> >do 2 jump 1's is not standard but modifications are  the<BR>
> >modified ship will be much cheaper. Given that no ships designed<BR>
> >for 2 jump 1's are on this list then no such designs are standard<BR>
> >in the canonical Traveller universe. If you as a Referee choose<BR>
> >to add more ships to the list of "standard" designs then you<BR>
> >are changing the nature of the Traveller universe.<BR>
 <BR>
> Only because of your obtuse definition of 'standard'. And, of course, *you*<BR>
> are the 'official' arbiter of the 'official' Traveller universe. If Marc<BR>
> Miller happens to read this far down this post, I hope he will offer some<BR>
> clarification as to who *is* the 'offical' arbiter <g>, and perhaps comment<BR>
> on your overly pedantic definitions of 'standard' and 'canon'.<BR>
<BR>
Of course Marc is the official arbiter of the official<BR>
Traveller universe. However his statements merely correct<BR>
the rules of Traveller so that they are in accordance with<BR>
the spirit of Traveller. I perceive his role to be somewhat<BR>
like that of the Court system (including the US Supreme Court.)<BR>
He always has the the final say but until he corrects a rule<BR>
others must abide by it in much the same way that people<BR>
are required to obey the law until and unless it is declared<BR>
invalid or unconstitutional. (Given that Marc was also responsible<BR>
for writing much of Traveller Canon in the first place I would<BR>
say that (in Traveller government terms) Marc is both the Executive <BR>
and the Judicial Branches while other Traveller writers are the<BR>
Legislative Branch. What they write is all subject to his Executive<BR>
Veto and Judicial modification.<BR>
<BR>
> >> Another assumption you are making is that the ship can *only* do J-1! A<BR>
> >> J-2 capable ship can do the job easily, and under at least some<BR>
> >> versions of the rules, it will *automatically* have the tankage<BR>
> >> required.<BR>
> ><BR>
> >> > Given that a jump 2 400 ton ship will cost MCr 12 more and<BR>
> >> > have 4 tons less space for other components than its jump 1<BR>
> >> > counterpart it is not worthwhile to use a Jump 2+ ship for<BR>
> >> > this run.<BR>
> ><BR>
> >> It's not as if there's likely to be a ship *dedicated* to making the<BR>
> >> supply run. You'll use what's on hand. Which makes it more likely that<BR>
> >> ship that *doesn't* need added tankage will get handed the contract.<BR>
> ><BR>
> >The total cost of operations for the cheaper ship will be<BR>
> >less. Therefore if given a choice of what ship to own, charter,<BR>
> >lease, or ship cargo on shippers will (over a 1 jump distance)<BR>
> >choose a jump 1 ship.<BR>
> <BR>
> ><BR>
> >On the other hand the canonical rules for chartering a ship<BR>
> >(in MT) state that charters cost a flat Cr 900 per DT of<BR>
> >cargo space + CR 9,000 per High Passage berth + Cr 900 per<BR>
> >Low Passage Berth (per 2 week block) Since these rules do not<BR>
> >require that a jump 2 (and thus more expensive) ship gets any<BR>
> >better price in the charter market than its jump 1 counterpart<BR>
> >the argument possibly should be made that the economic reality<BR>
> >that cheaper ships are cheaper should be ignored.<BR>
<BR>
> And if your destination is further than 1 parsec away you will have to stump<BR>
> up again for another 2 weeks (as a 2 week block is one standard Jump plus<BR>
> insystem transit times and refuelling etc). <BR>
<BR>
Of course but we are specifically discussing the situation of<BR>
supplying a deep space observatory or station jump 1 from a <BR>
planet. (The year is 5704 and the name of the place is University<BR>
of Rhylanor Deep Space Astronomical Station 5).<BR>
<BR>
> So for longer distances you will<BR>
> preferentialy charter vessels with larger drives. As you are already paying<BR>
> the vessel owner 90% of his max takings, <BR>
<BR>
The owners maximum earning come from speculative trade, not<BR>
from cargo and passengers.<BR>
<BR>
> If it cant make money on a charter then it never will realistically<BR>
<BR>
It can is speculative trade.<BR>
 <BR>
> >No it does not. If the authors had envisioned such handling<BR>
> >fee's varying based on cargo characteristics they would have<BR>
> >mentioned it. The absence of such mention is a dismissal of<BR>
> >said idea. The section is called berthing fee's, not cargo<BR>
> >fee's. Therefore handling fees must be charged to every<BR>
> >ship in port (without sufficient political juice or bribery<BR>
> >skill to avoid them) not merely to ships actually carrying<BR>
> >cargo.<BR>
 <BR>
> Aha! Hoist by your own petard! As these 'handling fees' are explicitly<BR>
> referred to in the 'berthing fees' section they can only apply to handling<BR>
> the *ship* during the berthing process. ie, moving it by tug/tractor from<BR>
> the landing site to its berth/hangar and vice versa. Thus there is still no<BR>
> explicit reference to *cargo* handling fees, leaving the GM free to impose<BR>
> such a system as he/she feels appropriate. <g><BR>
<BR>
No, canon states that there are five "basic" expenses associated<BR>
with starship operation. Therefore any other expenses must be<BR>
non basic. On the other hand cargo is discussed in the 'Revenue'<BR>
section of the rules and not in the 'Expenses' section of the<BR>
rules so perhaps we need to examine the 'Revenue' section.<BR>
<BR>
It states: "Goods taken on in orbit are delivered when placed<BR>
in orbit around the destination. [1] Goods loaded on a planetary<BR>
surface are delivered when off-loaded on the surface of the <BR>
destination. This custom applies to cargo, passengers, and mail."<BR>
[MT Imperial Encyclopedia p. 90].<BR>
<BR>
This may be the reason why cargo handling fees are not discussed.<BR>
Once players get the goods off loaded their subsequent movement<BR>
is the responsibility of the buyer. All the players have to do is <BR>
get the goods out the hatch (and not let them break on the way down).<BR>
<BR>
[1] Notice that this statement states that any passengers<BR>
picked up in orbit are considered delivered when they are placed<BR>
in orbit around the destination planet. As no mention is made<BR>
of any need for space suits this may imply that spacing your<BR>
passengers is legal once you are in orbit around your destination<BR>
planet. However since this practice is referred to as a custom,<BR>
not a law, it presumably does not trump laws against murder.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2281<BR>
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Traveller-digest       Monday, April 10 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2282<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Peter's view of Traveller (was re: various) LONG<BR>
RE: Just what IS TL? (Was: Notes on building Heya)<BR>
Re: Scale in Space<BR>
Re: Planet III software<BR>
Re: Scale in Space<BR>
Re : Notes on Forine<BR>
RE: Just what IS TL? (Was: Notes on building Heya)<BR>
Re: Ship sizes and shapes<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 00:55:38 -0400<BR>
From: Walt Smith <smithw@hartwick.edu><BR>
Subject: Peter's view of Traveller (was re: various) LONG<BR>
<BR>
Peter Newman has written a lot of strange things lately.  Here are a few,<BR>
from a couple different posts.<BR>
<BR>
Peter:<BR>
>The canonical text does not say that these designs and others<BR>
>we have not mentioned are standard it says "these designs"<BR>
>are standard. Therefore no other designs are standard unless<BR>
>another subsequent canonical product says that they are standard.<BR>
<BR>
How arbitrary, limiting, and dull.  Referees aren't permitted to add<BR>
standard ships to their campaigns?  How do you explain the lack of<BR>
"canon" designs for troop ships, tankers, and most of the other<BR>
paraphenalia of interstellar warfare?  That these ships exist is Canon...<BR>
that's large 'C' Canon, Peter - but where are they?  <BR>
<BR>
"Standard" is inclusive, not exclusive.  IMO, it is there to indicate that<BR>
all of the ships listed are standard, merely to inform us that none of them<BR>
are rare or custom designs - in no way to tell us that we can't have more<BR>
"standard" ships than this in our campaigns.<BR>
<BR>
Peter again:<BR>
>Given that non standard ships (by canon) do not get the class discount. <BR>
<BR>
Bzzzt!  Sorry, thank you for playing. I can make two ships that no one<BR>
has ever seen before, and as long as the second ship is the same<BR>
design as the first and built at a shipyard that made the first, the second<BR>
will get the class discount.  <BR>
<BR>
Heck, according to Trillion Credit Squadron, I can change the bay/turret<BR>
weapon loadouts, reduce the size of the spinal mount, eliminate<BR>
hangar bays, convert cargo bay to crew quarters or fuel, add computers,<BR>
add or remove bridges, change screens...and none of these will affect<BR>
the class discount. I can't change drives, armor, or hull configuration,<BR>
I can't add hardpoints or increase the size of the spinal mount, and<BR>
I can't add hangar facilities.  Beyond that, I can do anything I want.<BR>
<BR>
Peter again:<BR>
>Walt Smith wrote:<BR>
>> That's because the expense rules are written for ship owners, not<BR>
>> for interstellar trading companies or business concerns who need to<BR>
>> ship things.<BR>
><BR>
>The owner of a ship _is_ the owner of a (small) interstellar<BR>
>trading company or business.<BR>
<BR>
When he's moving cargo at Cr1000 per dtn, he's not a trading company.<BR>
<BR>
When he moves speculative cargo, he's trading...and we can guess<BR>
that some of what was spent on getting the cargo was spent on moving<BR>
it into the cargo bay.  This will have no relevance to the observatory<BR>
deciding whether the effort of cargo handling makes a difference in<BR>
their choice between a power supply that requires cargo transfer and<BR>
a power supply that only requires pumping, as the observatory isn't<BR>
taking part in speculative trading.<BR>
<BR>
Peter again:<BR>
>I had not mentioned shuttle fees to and from the high port<BR>
>because such fees are paid per DT with no distinction made<BR>
>as to the ease of handling such cargo. This is further evidence<BR>
>that Traveller has officially chosen to deliberately ignore<BR>
>any economic realities that would distinguish freight handling<BR>
>costs. Note that shuttle handling fees do not vary based on<BR>
>the distance or time of the trip from the high port either.<BR>
<BR>
Pg. 53, _The Traveller Book_: "Typical shuttle fares are...".  *Typical*.<BR>
This shows that the presented fares are an example, and that they are<BR>
not intended to show all variations or even to supply a range.  Rather<BR>
than ignore complex "economic realities", this paragraph allows your<BR>
very anal outlook all the freedom you should need to explore them.<BR>
<BR>
Peter again:<BR>
><BR>
>"A referee deals with situations that the rules may not cover."<BR>
>[MT Players Manual p. 6]<BR>
><BR>
>Since the canon text explicitly states that a Referee "deals<BR>
>with situations the rules may not cover" and does not state<BR>
>"A Referee deals with whatever he feels like dealing with."<BR>
>this is a clear statement that anything the rules do cover<BR>
>ought not to be modified by the referee.<BR>
<BR>
Wake up, Peter.  The rules "may not cover" anything the referee<BR>
has decided they don't cover. Cargo shuttles being overbooked.<BR>
Highport under medical quarantine.  A corrupt starship inspector<BR>
refusing to renew a safety certification without a bribe.  A local<BR>
Imperial official commandeering the players' ship for a priority<BR>
cargo.  Did you ever actually *play* in a Traveller campaign, or just<BR>
fiddle with the rule books?  The rule books are fun, but by themselves<BR>
they make a *terrible* Referee!  Not to mention a tedious one...<BR>
<BR>
Peter again:<BR>
>Walt Smith wrote:<BR>
>> Fair enough. The referee must be free to ruthlessly exploit opportunities<BR>
>> for bleeding the player's wallets dry that the rules, common sense,<BR>
>> his campaign setting and his imagination provides.<BR>
><BR>
>No he must not and is not.<BR>
<BR>
He is free to, if a plot being run in the campaign requires it.  He is free<BR>
not to, for the same reasons.  If he is not so free, then he is wasting his<BR>
time and you might as well play solitaire...which by your posts I think<BR>
you've been doing.<BR>
<BR>
>Canon states "And as the term _referee_  implies, a referee<BR>
>serves as an "impartial expert" for dealing with situations the<BR>
>rules may not cover." [MT Referee's Manual  p. 5]<BR>
><BR>
>This is an explicit statement from the designers of MT that<BR>
>the Referee ought to be impartial. If the Referee chooses<BR>
>to attempt to bleed the players dry he is no longer impartial.<BR>
>If the designers had wanted the Referee to be partial they<BR>
>would have called him the Storyteller not the Referee.<BR>
<BR>
A Referee is also intended to place challenges before the players.<BR>
These can be plots by NPC's and NPC-led organizations, any of which<BR>
can be expensive for the PC's.  <BR>
<BR>
Let's say a Megacorp has decided to make things tough in the current<BR>
subsector for Free Traders.  They order their factors at every starport to<BR>
buy up cargos, whether the MegaCorp has cargo space for them or not.<BR>
The Referee IMPARTIALLY declares that the normal trade tables are <BR>
not in effect at this time.  Even better, he simply presents the players <BR>
with disappointing results for excellent rolls with no comment - unless<BR>
the players investigate.<BR>
<BR>
Please do your dogmatic reading of the rules, and tell me where the above<BR>
campaign event is declared illegal?  Then take your dogmatism and<BR>
go play with it.<BR>
<BR>
Peter again:<BR>
>The cargo acquisition rules do not allow for this situation.<BR>
>Therefore the Referee is not free to do this.<BR>
<BR>
The Referee is free to do what will, in his opinion, make his game more<BR>
interesting.  He is to present challenges to his players.  Deal with it.<BR>
<BR>
Peter again:<BR>
>> This situation has appeared in Traveller-published<BR>
>> adventures.  <BR>
><BR>
>Yes, so? Said adventures were published by the copyright <BR>
>holder. They have the right to ignore the rules in favor of<BR>
>a good adventure. The referee does _not_ have that right (a<BR>
>design philosophy I am not necessarily in agreement with<BR>
>but one that is clearly stated by the canon I quoted above).<BR>
<BR>
You spend a lot of energy defending a design philosophy you've<BR>
created yourself, through an astoundingly narrow-minded reading<BR>
of a set of guidelines called a rule book.<BR>
<BR>
>Canon states that the Referee is "impartial" and exists to<BR>
>cover situations the rules "may not cover". Since the<BR>
>freight and cargo acquisition rules do cover this situation<BR>
>the Referee is not free to modify them.<BR>
<BR>
The Referee can modify anything he damn well feels like modifying,<BR>
Peter.  He can make Jump Space take a day, or a month.  He can<BR>
invent Laser Pistols and Lightsabers.  He can have a giant hand<BR>
reach out from space and crush the players' starship if he thinks it<BR>
fitting to do so.  His only limitation is that he and the players have<BR>
an interesting and enjoyable game.<BR>
<BR>
The freight and cargo acquisition rules are intended to present usual<BR>
outcomes from usual situations.  I cannot fathom how you extended <BR>
that to mean that the Referee is forbidden from creating UNUSUAL<BR>
situations where the outcomes will be different.  Have you ever played<BR>
and RPG?  Of any kind?<BR>
<BR>
In case you weren't paying attention:  If the Referee decides that the<BR>
players aren't getting a cargo of pharmaceuticals at this port, they aren't.<BR>
No matter what the die rolls say.  If the Referee decides that an outbreak<BR>
of Flashrot Plague in a nearby star system will force the players to<BR>
undergo an expensive and time-consuming health inspection, they will<BR>
get inspected and pay for it.  If the Referee decides X, then X will happen.<BR>
<BR>
Peter again:<BR>
>Walt Smith wrote:<BR>
>> There is nothing in the rules to cover labor disputes<BR>
>> that shut down the loading dock the players are docked at, does this<BR>
>> curtail the referee from using such a situation?<BR>
><BR>
>The rules do cover this matter. The cargo acquisition rules<BR>
>do not state that there is any possibility whatsoever<BR>
>that once cargo has been acquired that it can not be brought <BR>
>to the ship. Therefore no such possibility must exist or<BR>
>it would have been provided for. <BR>
<BR>
We have it from Loren on this mailing list that the absence of anything<BR>
is proof of nothing, in any part of the Traveller rules.  He specifically<BR>
was talking of how prevalent cloning technology was, but it sounds<BR>
very applicable to labor disputes.  Labor unrest features in several<BR>
Amber Zones and Adventures, so the usual effects thereof make perfect<BR>
sense to present as "challenges" from the Referee, when the Referee<BR>
thinks they are appropriate.<BR>
<BR>
Peter again:<BR>
>> They **need** this bias, since any group of PC's on a trade ship<BR>
>> will have a gamemaster to deal with - and one shot from a grumpy<BR>
>> NPC starship can cost these PC's *millions*.<BR>
><BR>
>The reaction of the NPC starship should be determined by<BR>
>the Starship encounters table and possibly by the reaction<BR>
>table.<BR>
<BR>
A hit from a starship laser is expensive.  Do you really believe that <BR>
such a hit is the *only* unexpected expense or aggravation that a<BR>
Free Trader crew will encounter?  That they'll never encounter anything<BR>
inconvenient that isn't on the encounter tables?<BR>
<BR>
I'm undecided at this point as to whether you're a troll, or simply an <BR>
unusually narrow-minded gamer - narrow-minded to the point of<BR>
obtuseness.  Which is it?<BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 01:15:25 -0400<BR>
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net><BR>
Subject: RE: Just what IS TL? (Was: Notes on building Heya)<BR>
<BR>
Han-Rancke Madsen:<BR>
<BR>
>>Arbitrary has a dictionary definition of "based on or determined by<BR>
>>individual preference or convenience rather than by necessity or the<BR>
>>intrinsic nature of something".<BR>
><BR>
>And I disagree with you that TL is arbitrary in the sense you appear to<BR>
mean.<BR>
>A TL represents a range whein the tools available to the people of a world<BR>
>falls. As such it is no more (and no less) arbitrary than, say,<BR>
hydrographic<BR>
>score which also denotes a range of values.<BR>
<BR>
Tech Level is not the same as hydrographic percentage, world size, or<BR>
population. With hydrographic percentage, for example, the percentage of the<BR>
planet covered with water is indicated. There can be no "special case" with<BR>
respect to hydrographic percentage. If 50 percent of a planet is covered,<BR>
it's 5. If there were a way to increase or decrease hydrographic percentage,<BR>
it would have to go through the ranks assigned, up or down. The same with<BR>
population and world size (with the exception of world size 0, which is<BR>
arbitrary, but somewhat logical).<BR>
<BR>
There is no way for a world to have a hydrographic percentage of 5, but also<BR>
a hydrographic percentage of 3 and 7 at the same time. There is no way for a<BR>
world to have a population of 5, 3 and 8 at the same time, or so on.<BR>
<BR>
On the other hand, it is possibly to find a wide range of tech levels within<BR>
a society in the real world. The tech level system has no inherent internal<BR>
consistency, other digits in the UPP do.<BR>
<BR>
>>I think that it's reasonable to say that the tech level rating system is<BR>
>>based on convenience rather than the intrinsic nature of technological<BR>
>>sophistication.<BR>
><BR>
>I disagree. If you're restricted to work in bronze, your technological<BR>
>options are limited to a certain range.<BR>
<BR>
Only with respect to metalworking. Not all types of technology rely on the<BR>
ability to work metal. Certain construction technologies, for example. Other<BR>
technologies may require metalworking to be done, but not in significant<BR>
quantities. It is also possible for a world to avoid bronze working<BR>
entirely.<BR>
<BR>
>If you can work iron, you have other options, and, more importantly,<BR>
>bronze-working would seem to be included in that range. With the ability<BR>
>to make steel you get yet more options, but being able to make steel<BR>
>implies the ability to work iron.<BR>
<BR>
Again, all with respect to metalworking. How well you can work steel or<BR>
iron, for example, says little or nothing with respect to how well you can<BR>
work other materials. It says nothing at all about biotechnology.<BR>
<BR>
>I admit that as you go up in TL you lose some technologies (steel does<BR>
>not include flint chipping), but they are replaced by the new technologies.<BR>
<BR>
It's not a matter of losing some, it's a matter that not all technologies<BR>
are required to go from one level to another. The use of guns and steam<BR>
power, for example, is not necessary to make internal combustion engines. It<BR>
may help if a world is forced to come up with internal combustion engines on<BR>
their own, but is not necessary. Similarly, bronze age techniques for<BR>
working metal are no necessary in order to create a modern galvanizing<BR>
plant, nor to work with bronze using TL6 or 7 techniques.<BR>
<BR>
Similarly, a world's ability to make aqueducts tells you nothing about the<BR>
ability of the inhabitants to use steam engines, nor its understanding of<BR>
the biological sciences, nor its understanding of rocketry.<BR>
<BR>
With that being said, you still haven't convinced me that the tech level<BR>
system is not arbitrary.<BR>
<BR>
>>Some technologies are linear, some aren't directly linear. Some<BR>
technologies<BR>
>>(such as steam power and gunpowder) are based on breakthroughs, or<BR>
>>discoveries. A society does not have to have a body of theory concerning<BR>
>>gunpowder in order to discover gunpowder.<BR>
><BR>
>No, but they do need to be able to work metal in order to USE gunpowder in<BR>
>any form other than the petard.<BR>
<BR>
Only one possible use of gunpowder. The problem I was illustrating is that<BR>
there is a vast gulf of difference between scientific theory (which the tech<BR>
level system, being linear, seems to assume) and practical use (which the<BR>
tech level system, as described in the rules, seems to assume as well). One<BR>
does not need metalworking to discover gunpowder, nor does one need<BR>
metalworking to discover concrete. One does not need metalworking to use<BR>
either.<BR>
<BR>
>>A society does have to have a body of theory about steam to conceive of a<BR>
>>steam engine, but that body of theory about steam doesn't rely on, say, a<BR>
>>society's construction technology.<BR>
><BR>
>No, but you can't build a powerful steam engine without the ability to make<BR>
>steel. And if you can make steel, certain construction methods become<BR>
>possible that isn't possible without it.<BR>
<BR>
Only partially true. Steel is nice for mobile steam engines, but not<BR>
necessary for immobile steam engines. Certain construction methods become<BR>
available with the use of steel, but steel-frame construction is not a<BR>
necessary prerequisite for genetic theory, or rocketry, or plastics.<BR>
<BR>
It would seem, however, that you have a definite notion of what makes a TL a<BR>
TL. It seems that, at least at low tech levels, it's what metal the<BR>
inhabitants of a world can work. How does that scale up? Is it always based<BR>
on metalworking technology, or just for the first few tech levels?<BR>
<BR>
>>I picked these two examples because both of these are generally seen by<BR>
>>people playing Traveller as defining TLs 2, 3 and 4. This can be extremely<BR>
>>problematic.<BR>
><BR>
>No, I think they work pretty well. It's not the gunpowder itself (that's a<BR>
>TL 0 technology), it's the cannons and guns that define Weapons TL 3.<BR>
<BR>
Cannons can be built at TL1, if gunpowder has been discovered. Useful steam<BR>
engines can be built at TLs 1, 2 and 3, if the theory of the use of steam to<BR>
move machinery has been discovered. A TL1 steam engine might not be as<BR>
powerful as a TL4 steam engine, but I can't think of any reason one couldn't<BR>
be used to power a wine press.<BR>
<BR>
>And toy steam engines can be built at TL 1, but useful steam engines needs<BR>
>steel, which comes along at TL 4 (at least, I hope I'm not misremembering<BR>
>my TLs; I inadvertently left the relevant books at home today).<BR>
<BR>
No problem. Coal powered steam comes along at TL4, so I suspect you're<BR>
right. Still, the water wheel is listed as TL3, and it doesn't require any<BR>
other TL3 technology. The water wheel can be built with TL1 technology. Wind<BR>
power is listed as TL2, but doesn't require any other TL2 technology.<BR>
Windmills (and sails) can both be built at TL1.<BR>
<BR>
>>...it would seem that many agricultural developments have little to do<BR>
with<BR>
>>machinery and devices, and much more to do with theory, and new ways of<BR>
>>dealing with agriculture. It doesn't matter so much whether the plow is<BR>
>>pulled by a steam tractor or a fusion tractor, but whether or not you<BR>
>>planted peanuts there last season could be extremely important.<BR>
><BR>
>_Hard Times_ makes the point that many techniques, once discovered, can be<BR>
>"backdated" to earlier TLs. Crop rotation is (IMO) a TL 0 technique.<BR>
<BR>
I asked you before to give some indication as to what makes a specific tech<BR>
level a specific tech level. You said you wouldn't. Now you're throwing out<BR>
your opinion of what tech level a specific farming technique is. It's not<BR>
far to hold back information that I previously requested and which you<BR>
denied giving me.<BR>
<BR>
Okay, so what makes crop rotation a TL0 technique?<BR>
<BR>
>>Imagine gun factories on a TL5 world that uses TL5 labor, but the<BR>
factories<BR>
>>themselves are TL12. Players visiting the world might very well not be<BR>
able<BR>
>>to buy the produced TL12 guns when they visit the world, despite the fact<BR>
>>that these factories form the backbone of the economy of this planet.<BR>
><BR>
>I don't see a problem. All the TL 12 machinery is imported. Technologically<BR>
>it's completely divorced from the host society. The local society remains<BR>
>TL 5.<BR>
<BR>
This is precisely what you said couldn't happen in the case of Heya. So,<BR>
you've changed your opinion now, or contradict yourself, or is there some<BR>
subtlety I'm missing?<BR>
<BR>
>>Then you actually agree that it is abstract. To say that something is<BR>
>>abstract is to say that it *suggests* something else.<BR>
><BR>
>No I don't. 'Abstract' means "a:disassociated from any specific instance",<BR>
>"b:difficult to understand", or "c:insufficiently factual" (Websters). I<BR>
>maintain that TL is associated with a concrete range of technologies and<BR>
>that it is sufficiently factual to be useful.<BR>
<BR>
I'm not sure how it is that you, personally, use a dictionary to acquire<BR>
definitions. There are more there then you've listed. I really don't like it<BR>
when a discussion gets to the point of arguing over dictionary definitions,<BR>
as there are certain nuances that are difficult to define unless you use the<BR>
word regularly. With that being said, I tread the minefield of dictionary<BR>
definitions:<BR>
<BR>
Please note the number of definitions that you've quoted above. You have<BR>
lighted on "insufficiently factual", and proceeded to misinterpret that<BR>
particular definition (which is "insufficiently factual: FORMAL") which is<BR>
not the way I meant the word. I made it clear that this was not the way I<BR>
meant the word. The use here is a combination of 2: expressing a quality<BR>
apart from an object, 3a: dealing with a subject in its abstract aspects:<BR>
THEORETICAL and 1a: disassociated from any specific instance, as well as 1c:<BR>
insufficiently factual: FORMAL.<BR>
<BR>
An abstract painting or sculpture may not move or take action, but it may<BR>
suggest movement and action. An abstract human figure (a stick figure, or<BR>
something similar) may not all of the elements a real human figure has, but<BR>
it suggests them. For example, follow "insufficiently factual : FORMAL".<BR>
Formal goes to 1a: "belonging to or constituting the form or essence of the<BR>
thing", which goes to 1a of "form", "the shape and structure of something as<BR>
distinguished from its material", as well as 2 "the essential nature of a<BR>
thing as distinguished from its matter".<BR>
<BR>
This is a debased version of the academic, philosophic and artistic use. To<BR>
say something is abstract is to say that it can exist only in theory, in the<BR>
mind; that it suggests a quality that it doesn't have. This is one of the<BR>
dangers of relying solely on the dictionary for definitions when the<BR>
definition is extremely subtle.<BR>
<BR>
Suffice to say, I do believe that the TL rating is, in a sense, formal, in<BR>
that it, "constitutes to the shape and structure of something as<BR>
distinguished from its material". Or, to put it another way, it gives a<BR>
general suggestion or impression as opposed to being a reference to the<BR>
specifics. I understand well that stooping to dictionary definitions makes<BR>
me a wanker, but I do so only in order to illustrate that I am using the<BR>
term correctly.<BR>
<BR>
>>This is precisely the reason I like the TL rating system, and the reason I<BR>
>>defend it despite the fact that a naturalist system (i.e., breaking down<BR>
the<BR>
>>tech level into subgroups such as biology, gravitics, etc.) would likely<BR>
be<BR>
>>"more realistic".<BR>
><BR>
>The MT rules specifically splits TL up into such sub-groups.<BR>
<BR>
Where? I don't recall this in any of the main rulebooks. I'm not saying it's<BR>
not there, I just don't remember it. Still, I don't support that idea, and<BR>
it would seem that you don't either, or you would have simply said at the<BR>
beginning "divide the TL up into subgroups, as indicated by the MT rules".<BR>
<BR>
>>Well, I'm getting at what makes a society TL6 and what makes a society<BR>
TL2,<BR>
>>and how a shift can be identified. This is an absolute necessity is you<BR>
view<BR>
>>tech levels in the way that you seem to. Does a steam-powered TL3<BR>
sweatshop<BR>
>>become a TL8 sweatshop if the steam valves are regulated with a TL8<BR>
>>computer?<BR>
><BR>
>Individual businesses do not have TLs. Societies have TLs. The kind of<BR>
>sweatshop you mention could exist in a TL 3 society, but only if the<BR>
>computer is imported. It could also exist in a TL 8 society.<BR>
<BR>
Earlier you pointed out that tech levels were used in economic calculations,<BR>
yet now you say that a business can't have a tech level. Say sweatshops like<BR>
these are the backbones of a world's economy, and that computer control of<BR>
the steam engines with TL8 computers increases production (that is, makes a<BR>
definite difference with respect to the amount or quality of a product that<BR>
may be exported). Is this world TL3, or TL8? Or is it TL3 with respect to<BR>
what the player characters will "see", TL8 with respect to the highest<BR>
technology in general use, or somewhere in the middle with respect to<BR>
calculating economic capacity?<BR>
<BR>
>>Does a TL1 clothing shop become TL3 if it adopts an assembly line<BR>
approach?<BR>
><BR>
>No. On Earth the assembly line approach wasn't invented until long after<BR>
>it _could_ have been. But it is still a TL 0 technique (Note: This is my<BR>
>personal version of TL. I never said the official version was completely<BR>
>self-consistent).<BR>
<BR>
Fair enough. Your version (putting "concepts" at TL0) seems even more<BR>
arbitrary, and less useful if the person parsing the TL stat is not Hans<BR>
Rancke-Madsen. It's a fine method, if you're Hans Rancke-Madsen, but not if<BR>
you're Chris Seamans, or anybody else. To put it another way, what criteria<BR>
are you using?<BR>
<BR>
>>The second type of list, which made its first appearance in that book,<BR>
puts<BR>
>>the tech levels as real world eras.<BR>
><BR>
>That is examples. TL 4 corresponds roughly to the sort of stuff Europe had<BR>
>during the 19th Century. TL 5 corresponds roughly to WWI, etc.<BR>
<BR>
I disagree with this method on many levels, since quite a few technological<BR>
breakthroughs are conceptual, or can be passed to lower tech levels with<BR>
little or no transference of technology. Crop rotation significantly<BR>
increases harvests, yet on your line it's tech level 0. Yet, a tech level 0<BR>
society that uses crop rotation, and one that doesn't, will be able to<BR>
export different amounts of foodstuffs.<BR>
<BR>
>>The second one has problems too. China discovered many things that were<BR>
>>integral to Europe around TL3, but much earlier. Would China be a TL1<BR>
>>society, or a TL3 society as a result?<BR>
><BR>
>TL 3. It's the technologies that counts, not the dates.<BR>
<BR>
Fair enough. This is what I expected you to say. So, what technologies are<BR>
integral to TL3, for example, and how does one tell a TL2 society from a TL3<BR>
society? It isn't sufficient to point to the TL table in CT, or the "eras"<BR>
in MT and say, "that tells the story". Some technologies are missing<BR>
entirely, others are underepresented. Where are the lines between tech<BR>
levels?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2000 23:19:08 -0600<BR>
From: Dale Gyles <gyles@mtn-webtech.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Scale in Space<BR>
<BR>
At 07:22 PM 4/9/00 -0400, you wrote<BR>
>------------------------------<BR>
><BR>
>Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2000 15:08:51 PST<BR>
>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
>Subject: Re: Scale in Space<BR>
><BR>
>*One* of the reasons is because *current* sensors can track a ship the<BR>
>size of a Traveller starship at multiple light second ranges. That's<BR>
>around a *million* km. Which is a mere 4 hours at 1 g. 1.6 hours at 6 g.<BR>
><BR>
Thanks, Leonard.  That's what I needed to know. Just to clarify, if I<BR>
understand you correctly, once a ship is detected, it is very easy to<BR>
track.  How about initial detection for a ship in orbit "running silent"<BR>
using passive and active sensors?<BR>
<BR>
>Also, given that the ships *can* boost for hours at a time, their<BR>
>velocities become unreasonable at lower timespans and smaller<BR>
>timescales. <BR>
><BR>
>Due to the way Newtonian physics work, the time scale and the hex size<BR>
>are tied together. If you pick a hex size, then you have to pick a<BR>
>timescale such that 1G equals 1, or only a few hexes moved. Otherwise,<BR>
>you have ships moving clear across the playing area in one "turn". <BR>
><BR>
This leads into my next question.  Where do space battles occur?  Near<BR>
planets?  Far from planets?  I assume not in interstellar space, even<BR>
though the "Battle of Two Suns" was fought in deep space IIRC, from<BR>
Adventure One.<BR>
<BR>
Would the defending units see intruders in time to intercept them far from<BR>
a planet, or will intruding ships be able to make a high-speed pass at such<BR>
velocities that only one round of combat will occur?<BR>
<BR>
I think there may be three types of space battles, Pass-thru battles where<BR>
two forces are closing at very high velocities, pursuit battles, one force<BR>
chasing another, and battles where one force is decelerating into orbit and<BR>
the defenders are at or close to orbital velocity.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<BR>
Dale Gyles<BR>
Black Eagle, MT<BR>
gyles@mtn-webtech.com<BR>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 00:16:12 -0500<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
Subject: Re: Planet III software<BR>
<BR>
On 04/09/00 at 06:59 PM,  "D. Smart" <dsmart@imagin.net> said:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>BTW, does anyone other than me think it a good idea to post<BR>
>these files on Downport or Freelance?<BR>
<BR>
Downport, Freelance, the Missouri Archives, and in a half dozen more places. <g><BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2000 23:27:30 -0600<BR>
From: Dale Gyles <gyles@mtn-webtech.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Scale in Space<BR>
<BR>
At 10:04 PM 4/9/00 -0400, you wrote:<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
>Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2000 16:44:14 -0800<BR>
>From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net><BR>
>Subject: Scale in Space<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
><BR>
>Having tried to write space combat rules of my own, I've another theory.<BR>
>You set the timescale so that player characters can do repairs within a<BR>
>single turn. You then set weapons ranges based upon scale and whatever<BR>
>level of reality modeling you wish. Then you explain any variances not<BR>
>supoorted by the real  world.<BR>
><BR>
Thanks Bill, that's a good point.  What do you think is a reasonable<BR>
timeframe for repairs?  I wonder what kinds of repairs modern warship crews<BR>
can do in combat?  I suppose firefighting and pumping water out might be<BR>
the extent of it.<BR>
<BR>
>Seriously, tho' at reasonable scales, the 100d limit is going to be quite a<BR>
>ways from the world. And CT was simple and playable, not particularly<BR>
>realistic. By assuming massive numbers of shots, you'll secure a decent<BR>
>number of hits in that time-frame.<BR>
><BR>
How far out can ships arrive out of jump from a planet?  IIRC, anywhere in<BR>
a system outside of 100 diameter limits.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<BR>
Dale Gyles<BR>
Black Eagle, MT<BR>
gyles@mtn-webtech.com<BR>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 00:30:18 -0500<BR>
From: tim@premier.net<BR>
Subject: Re : Notes on Forine<BR>
<BR>
> Sorry about the delay.<BR>
<BR>
Not a problem I have been learning alot by doing this, thanks to all <BR>
the help from all of you.<BR>
<BR>
> <BR>
> > If I do this then I would increase the tempeture, which, should alow <BR>
> > for both the molton core and some free floating water if heated by <BR>
> > the volcaneo or other raptures, or even the human heat idea right?<BR>
> A molten core is due [in this context] to the presence of silicates (the<BR>
> radioactive decay of potassium and other elements in those minerals).<BR>
> 	Very large bodies (gas giant sized) will be internally hot due to<BR>
> pressure and temperature effects caused by gravity.<BR>
> 	The very low atmospheric pressure (max 0.09 atm) implies a boiling<BR>
> point for water of about 50 degrees Celsius. There could be transient<BR>
> bodies of surface water. Around volcanic vents would be the<BR>
> logical and ideal place.<BR>
> 	'The Matrix' notwithstanding, the human body radiates about 1W<BR>
> per kg mass (this could be increased by a factor of 3 to 4 with<BR>
> strenuous activity). I'd exploit this to keep life support power <BR>
> requirements down.<BR>
<BR>
Thanks the funny thing is that I just watched the Matrix for the 10th <BR>
time  : )<BR>
> 	A local environmental group could be opposed to the effect of<BR>
> heat pollution on local geography <g>.<BR>
> <BR>
Hmmm I ll have to think about that one.  See the history just sent <BR>
<BR>
> > My next question is what will this do to the world's orbital period <BR>
> > and rotation.  At 1 AU that should mean a 366 day orbit right?  <BR>
> > Rotation should need not change?<BR>
> As Leonard has pointed out, one of Kepler's laws applies :-<BR>
> <from Jon Zeigler's excellent 'First In'><BR>
<BR>
Ok what is this Jon Zeigler "First In?"  Is this a guide to do all this <BR>
work.  I have been using my Collage textbook.  Mind you I only got <BR>
a C in astronomy so this is like relearning everything.  <BR>
<BR>
> <BR>
> Period = Square Root([Radius^3]/star mass)<BR>
> <BR>
I got 577 days by using an M0 star mass of .4 sols.  My textbook <BR>
implied that stars range from  M1-M0,so I just fudged die rolls.<BR>
<BR>
> For convenience - period in years, radius in astronomical units, star<BR>
> mass in solar masses ["sols"].<BR>
> <BR>
> An M8 V (there are no M9 Vs) has a mass of 0.063 sols.<BR>
<BR>
This makes it seem that stars range from 0-9 insteed.  <BR>
<BR>
Thanks again all for the help.<BR>
<BR>
> Robert O'Connor<BR>
> Medico, Gamer<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Tim Reynolds<BR>
tim@premier.net <BR>
225-334-5063<BR>
- ------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
Getting an education was a bit like a communicable <BR>
sexual disease.  It made you unsuitable for <BR>
a lot of jobs and then you had the urge to pass it on.<BR>
<BR>
Terry Pratchett <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2000 22:33:20 -0700<BR>
From: "Luther Martin" <martin@ksarul.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Just what IS TL? (Was: Notes on building Heya)<BR>
<BR>
Chris Seamans wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Cannons can be built at TL1, if gunpowder has been discovered.<BR>
<BR>
I just can't help it. Maybe a TL earlier, but they just can't be *fired* if<BR>
gunpowder hasn't?<BR>
<BR>
> Suffice to say, I do believe that the TL rating is, in a sense, formal, in<BR>
> that it, "constitutes to the shape and structure of something as<BR>
> distinguished from its material". Or, to put it another way, it gives a<BR>
> general suggestion or impression as opposed to being a reference to the<BR>
> specifics. I understand well that stooping to dictionary definitions makes<BR>
> me a wanker, but I do so only in order to illustrate that I am using the<BR>
> term correctly.<BR>
<BR>
I'm afraid that 12 years of education in mathematics and engineering has<BR>
made it difficult for me to understand this kind of writing. Not that I<BR>
mind, really.<BR>
<BR>
To me, Chris has passed some sort of "civility threshold." Dropped below it,<BR>
I mean. Would you talk to someone this way (the tone of his post) in person?<BR>
I know that I wouldn't.<BR>
<BR>
Maybe it's time to unsubscribe again.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 01:56:15 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
From: Dalton Spence <dalton.spence@hwcn.org><BR>
Subject: Re: Ship sizes and shapes<BR>
<BR>
On Wed, 5 Apr 2000 18:15:04 +1000, "Katharine Whitchurch"<BR>
<katts@globalfreeway.com.au> wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> OK. This is all goanna be in metric, and my best guesses from shapes. If it<BR>
> differs from other versions, these are the Famile Spofulam Yards versions<BR>
> (variants available with your choice of 12 gee engines, meson guns, resupply<BR>
> pods for Elephant-Mounted Particle Accelerators etc). Just about every one<BR>
> of these designs is goanna be built by twenty makers, to twenty<BR>
> slightly-different designs.<BR>
<BR>
THANK YOU VERY MUCH!!! This is *exactly* what I wanted. Sorry for<BR>
the slow reply, but I've spent the last few days putting together a<BR>
spreadsheet to design a starport according to the rules in Chapter<BR>
Five of "GT: Starports." (Are these shapes you mentioned part of a<BR>
generic Traveller ship classification system or just your personal<BR>
description of them?) What I have discovered is that while all of<BR>
the ships listed could land in either small or standard freestanding<BR>
berths, most would have to move to a larger berth if they needed to<BR>
fit under a retractable roof. Do you mind if I convert measurements<BR>
to feet and post the results to the GURPS newsgroup and mailing list<BR>
as an FYI? (Full credit to you, of course!)<BR>
<BR>
> BTW, you owe me 3 NPCs (written up for G:T is OK) for people likely to be<BR>
> travelling from Glisten to Mire in Darrian space. This is for the Mire Run,<BR>
> a scenario that I posted recently (which I can re-send to people on<BR>
> request).<BR>
<BR>
I'm pretty new to the Traveller universe right now, and I don't have<BR>
a copy of "GT: Behind the Claw" so I know *nothing* about the worlds<BR>
you mentioned, but I could create generic NPCs from the templates in<BR>
the four GT books I *do* have if you like. I think from the wording<BR>
if your request however that you want something a bit less vanilla.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
              @==================================================@<BR>
              | Dalton S. Spence, B.Sc. <dalton.spence@hwcn.org> |<BR>
              | Home Page: http://www.hwcn.org/~ag775/home.html  |<BR>
              |      Family Motto: Virtute Acquiritur Honos      |<BR>
              |    "Trade is the lifeblood of the Imperium."     |<BR>
              |   Cleon I, First Emperor of the Third Imperium   |<BR>
              |  The petunia disobeys the Japanese rom chip in   |<BR>
              |               the brewery. FNORD!                |<BR>
              @==================================================@<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2282<BR>
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Traveller-digest       Monday, April 10 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2283<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
GT Tech-Q: Sharing Ship Module Power Slices<BR>
RE: That pesky TL definition<BR>
Re: Far Frontiers Sector Data?<BR>
Re: Ship sizes and shapes<BR>
Re: Peter's view of Traveller (was re: various) LONG<BR>
RE: Just what IS TL? (Was: Notes on building Heya)<BR>
Re: Far Frontiers Sector Data?<BR>
Re: Planet 3 software<BR>
Re: Peter's view of Traveller<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 01:56:14 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
From: Dalton Spence <dalton.spence@hwcn.org><BR>
Subject: GT Tech-Q: Sharing Ship Module Power Slices<BR>
<BR>
This reply has also been sent to the newsgroups.<BR>
Including the power requirement in ship modules may make for easy<BR>
design, but it also creates massively overpowered fusion reactors.<BR>
Producing inexpensive jump ships is essential for trade IMTU, and<BR>
one simple saving would involve sharing jump drive power slices<BR>
with the manuver drive, beam weapons and meson screens; 3 systems<BR>
that won't be used in jump anyway. The simplest way is to calculate<BR>
the total size, mass and cost of the power slices for those three<BR>
systems, then subtract them from the size, mass and cost of the<BR>
jump drive up to a maximum of twenty-five percent of the J-drive's<BR>
original volume. Below is a list of the component power slices as<BR>
derived from GURPS Traveller pages 153 and 157.<BR>
<BR>
                                 Power  Space        Mass   Cost<BR>
                                 (MW)   (dtons)     (stons) (MCr)<BR>
<BR>
Maneuver Drives         (TL10)     4      0.1       0.4     0.04<BR>
    (per space)         (TL12)    10      0.5       1.0     0.1<BR>
<BR>
Turret Lasers           (TL10)    11.1    0.2775    1.11    0.111<BR>
                        (TL12)    18.0    0.45      1.8     0.09<BR>
<BR>
Particle Beam Bay       (TL10)    427    10.675     42.7    4.27<BR>
Meson Beam Bay          (TL12)    427    10.675     42.7    2.135<BR>
<BR>
Spinal Particle Beam    (TL10) 18,983.3 474.583  1,898.33 189.833<BR>
Spinal Meson Beam       (TL12) 18,983.3 474.583  1,898.33  94.9165<BR>
<BR>
As you may have noticed, the power slice for beam bays is larger<BR>
than the actual bay itself. Well, it gets worse: according to the<BR>
equation on page 126 of GURPS Vehicles, the mass of the weapon<BR>
itself is 266.875 stons. At 12.5 stons/dton (50 lbs/cf) we have a<BR>
volume of 21.35 dtons for the weapon alone. In fact, the maximum<BR>
mass of the 10 space weapon's bay according to these rules should be<BR>
125 stons (a mass that *all* bay weapons greatly exceed [see table<BR>
on GT p.156]), and that's only if it is packed solid with electronic<BR>
equipment. Perhaps this is in the GT errata already, but I'm writing<BR>
this offline and I don't have copy handy. Was the power and mass of<BR>
the bay weapons a canonical thing from the original Traveller?<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
              @==================================================@<BR>
              | Dalton S. Spence, B.Sc. <dalton.spence@hwcn.org> |<BR>
              | Home Page: http://www.hwcn.org/~ag775/home.html  |<BR>
              |      Family Motto: Virtute Acquiritur Honos      |<BR>
              |    "Trade is the lifeblood of the Imperium."     |<BR>
              |   Cleon I, First Emperor of the Third Imperium   |<BR>
              |   Internal Security must take the oily compact   |<BR>
              |          disc from my back yard. FNORD!          |<BR>
              @==================================================@<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 02:04:24 -0400<BR>
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net><BR>
Subject: RE: That pesky TL definition<BR>
<BR>
Hans Rancke-Madsen says:<BR>
<BR>
>>Finally, one of the points of _Hard Times_ is that the TL of many worlds<BR>
>>are NOT, in fact, locally sustainable.<BR>
><BR>
>They are "locally sustainable" with respect to the world being part of a<BR>
>living, breathing and thriving interstellar community (if the Imperium can<BR>
>be described as such).<BR>
<BR>
>But if that is what you think TL indicates, then it follows that a, say,<BR>
>TL 5 society is unable (or possibly unwilling) to buy more sophisticated<BR>
>equipment than TL 5 in quantity. Because if they did buy, say, TL 10 goods<BR>
>from a neighboring system, they would have demonstrated an ability to<BR>
>procure TL 10 stuff and would, ipso facto, be TL 10. And that makes sense,<BR>
>too. TL is specifically stated to, among other things, represent the<BR>
>capability of the society to maintain and repair equipment. And the lack of<BR>
>ability to maintain and repair TL 10 equipment demonstrates that TL 10<BR>
>equipment is not common in that society. As I said, the most sophisticated<BR>
>ground vehicle we build in Denmark is the bicycle (TL 4?), yet we have the<BR>
>ability to maintain and repair TL 7 cars.<BR>
<BR>
This is only if tech level is mainly indicative of what may be found or<BR>
bought on a planet. If it's a measure of mainly what can be manufactured,<BR>
it's perfectly in keeping with this system. However, the "official"<BR>
definition says that it's what is in general use, can be maintained, can be<BR>
manufactured locally and what the player characters may buy.<BR>
<BR>
In short, there are a number of elements which are tangled up:<BR>
<BR>
What is in general use is not always indicative of what is manufactured<BR>
locally. Much of what can be purchased in America, from cars to clothing,<BR>
from tools to toys, is not actually manufactured here. What is in general<BR>
use is at odds with what we produce, and what we can produce. Similarly,<BR>
those items that a Chinese sweatshop may produce (televisions, or computer<BR>
components, for example) may not be in general use in the society that<BR>
produces them.<BR>
<BR>
What can be maintained may be at odds with what is in general use, or may be<BR>
manufactured. The "tinkering", or "hacking" element. Automobiles may not be<BR>
in general use, but a mechanic may be able to maintain automobiles with<BR>
little or no formal training. Clocks may not be in general use, but a tinker<BR>
may be able to maintain and repair watches, and so on. In some cases,<BR>
maintenance may be easier than others. For example, most computer repairmen<BR>
are never called upon to solder a board, they just pull components out and<BR>
plug new ones in. What can be maintained may be vastly different from what<BR>
can be manufactured.<BR>
<BR>
In thinking about the subject over the last couple of days, I'm starting to<BR>
lean toward the notion that tech level defines a certain kind of<BR>
infrastructure. When I get a clearer version of this, I will insert it into<BR>
the discussion.<BR>
<BR>
>>Please note that, as part of that description, it is stated that local<BR>
>>businesses or organizations might import things of a different tech level.<BR>
><BR>
>Sure. But it doesn't say that they do so in quantity. I would expect a<BR>
>company that imports equipment above the local TL to have to import<BR>
>spare parts and mechanics too. Whereas any equipment, imported or not,<BR>
>that is of the local TL can be maintained by the locals.<BR>
<BR>
It also doesn't say that they *don't* import them in quantity. At the risk<BR>
of this discussion drifting into Peter Newman territory, I'm not going to<BR>
dwell on this too much. High-tech goods can be imported to low-tech worlds.<BR>
That much we already know. What seems to be at issue now is what "general<BR>
use" means, and how much equipment from a higher tech level must be used by<BR>
the general public in order for the tech level to change.<BR>
<BR>
>>>So I maintain that the best, that is, most useful, definintion of TL is<BR>
>>>that it is what is in general use on the planet, not necessesarily what<BR>
>>>can be built on that planet, rather than what can be built locally with<BR>
>>>imports allowing substantially higher technology in _general_ use.<BR>
>><BR>
>>This is, of course, only useful for describing what player characters see<BR>
>>when they land on the world.<BR>
><BR>
>I disagree, but even if it were so, isn't that a most important part of the<BR>
>game? It IS a role-playing game rather than an economic simulation, you<BR>
>know.<BR>
<BR>
Okay. You disagree, fair enough. What else can tech level, as you've defined<BR>
it above, do?<BR>
<BR>
It *is* a roleplaying game, but *you* were the one who pointed out that tech<BR>
level figures heavily into the various economic systems used by various<BR>
versions of Traveller. Such economic systems are extremely useful for GMs<BR>
and players involved in merchant campaigns. So, although Traveller is not an<BR>
economic simulation, economic simulation can be said to be important to a<BR>
very common type of campaign that Traveller players involve themselves in.<BR>
<BR>
>>It says absolutely nothing about what worlds may import things from<BR>
another<BR>
>>world, or what might be exported by the planet.<BR>
><BR>
>Yes it does. Both imports and exports are limited by the local TL. Not<BR>
>completely, of course, but if the majority of the stuff used on a planet<BR>
>is of a given TL, they either import raw material and build it themselves<BR>
>or export raw material and buy it.<BR>
<BR>
No. Tech level as you've defined it says absolutely nothing about whether or<BR>
not a world imports or exports technology, merely that the world *uses*<BR>
technology of a specific level.<BR>
<BR>
>>In order for the tech level statistic to be useful for deciding how<BR>
>>interstellar trade might work, it simply cannot work this way.<BR>
><BR>
>I'm certainly not convinced of that, but even if you're right, what is more<BR>
>important? The day-to-day life of your PCs or the economic underpinning of<BR>
>the game world (Mind you, I'm certainly not saying that it wouldn't be nice<BR>
>if the economic underpinning was consistent. But if it does come down to<BR>
>a choice between versimilitude and playability, I do consider playability<BR>
>more important).<BR>
<BR>
I consider the economic underpinning of the game world (which may impact<BR>
player characters) and what the player characters do in "day-to-day life" to<BR>
be the same.<BR>
<BR>
>>If the materials in general use on a planet are imported, these materials<BR>
>>might be much more expensive when player characters go to buy them.<BR>
><BR>
>More expensive, yes, since you have to add transportation costs. But much<BR>
>more? I don't think so. If I understand _Far Trader_ correctly, it claims<BR>
>that transportation costs generally don't add much to the cost of goods.<BR>
<BR>
Transportation costs *don't* generally add much to the cost of goods. You're<BR>
not just paying transportation costs, however. You're paying for the<BR>
distribution network, the accountants, the lawyers, the life insurance, the<BR>
private armies and hundreds of other costs that interstellar corporations<BR>
have to pay. You may or may not have to pay these costs at the world of<BR>
origin of a manufactured product.<BR>
<BR>
In real life, it is not uncommon for goods to be marked up anywhere from a<BR>
small mark up (maybe 5 or 10%) on up to infinity to cover the various costs<BR>
that it takes to run a business. I made jewelry for years that was marked up<BR>
roughly 100%. If we allowed people to purchase direct, the cost would be 50%<BR>
of what they would pay in a gallery. The transport costs were only a small<BR>
fraction of this markup. However, these places also had to keep a<BR>
storefront, pay employees, buy and sell other sorts of artwork, and so on.<BR>
<BR>
If you're buying a product at a world that exports a product it will likely<BR>
be sufficiently cheaper than at a world that imports a product for this very<BR>
reason.<BR>
<BR>
>>Alternately, if a world exports high-tech devices, they might be cheaper.<BR>
><BR>
>No, if a high-tech factory is producing high-tech goods for export, the<BR>
>locals will have to pay the same (less transportation costs) for them as<BR>
>the manufacturer can sell them for on any other market.<BR>
<BR>
Simply not true in the real world, and I don't see why this would be the<BR>
case in the fantasy world of the Imperium. This is not the way that<BR>
businesses work. They exist to make money. Hence, they will raise prices to<BR>
make money. Like I said, I'm not as familiar with the Far Trader system as<BR>
I'd like to be. I don't know if it was intended to map large scale importing<BR>
and exporting of products.<BR>
<BR>
>>This is essential for groups involved in merchant campaigns, and is useful<BR>
>>in other sorts of campaigns (in a mercenary campaign, the acquisition of<BR>
>>spare parts and ammunition might be required).<BR>
><BR>
>You're quite sure that the effect isn't small enough to be ignored?<BR>
<BR>
It may be, or it may not be. A replacement TL14 grav-tank will probably be<BR>
significantly more expensive on a world 5 parsecs away from the manufacturer<BR>
than at the world where it was produced. Electronic devices are often<BR>
cheaper in Japan and America than England and Israel. They are often<BR>
significantly cheaper.<BR>
<BR>
>>Further, this method says nothing of "hybrid" societies, of which many<BR>
>>societies in the real world are. They may produce goods at a significantly<BR>
>>higher tech-level than what is used locally.<BR>
><BR>
>The words 'in quantity' is the key here. If you want to introduce a few<BR>
>high-tech pimples on a low-tech world, go ahead. As long as the goods<BR>
>manufactured there isn't used by the locals, visiting PCs are unlikely to<BR>
>care or even know that it is there.<BR>
<BR>
It is key here, but there is no yardstick to measure "in quantity". How many<BR>
TL12 tractors does Heya have to import to be considered TL12? If Heya has<BR>
one TL12 tractor for every man woman and child, is that sufficient if the<BR>
locals use TL4 firearms to hunt, and TL4 coal plants to run their own<BR>
factories, TL4 buses and automobiles manufactured in those factories, TL2<BR>
construction materials and techniques for their farmhouses, TL1 construction<BR>
materials and techniques for their storage barns, TL7 equipment for their<BR>
police, TL8 equipment for their military, TL6 for their communications, TL9<BR>
seeds, TL10 pesticides and TL11 fertilizers?<BR>
<BR>
This is what I've been asking from the beginning, and I have yet to see an<BR>
answer that deals with the issue in a consistent fashion. Is tech level an<BR>
indicator of the highest level of technology in general use? If so, what<BR>
constitutes "general use"? How many different types of equipment from a<BR>
specific TL must be in general use in order for the TL rating of a world to<BR>
reflect this as the world's "technological level"?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 00:10:22 -0700<BR>
From: "J. Paul Sanders" <timmon@primenet.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Far Frontiers Sector Data?<BR>
<BR>
At 11:43 PM 4/9/00 -0400, you wrote:<BR>
>I have a copy of the manuscript for the Far Frontiers Sector supplement,<BR>
>which was never published. Is there a particular world or subsector you are<BR>
>looking for, or were you looking for a complete set?<BR>
<BR>
Umm... if memory serves, 1/2 of the sector *was* published in Ares Special<BR>
Edition #2 by Dale Kemper, and the remaining 1/2 was converted and used in an<BR>
early GURPS supplement (also by Dale Kemper of course). In addition, James<BR>
Kundert generated the 'official' missing 1/2 and that was published in the<BR>
Traveller Chronicle (I forget which issues). <BR>
<BR>
I know I'd certainly be interested in seeing the manuscript you have published<BR>
(am I correct in assuming it is the original one produced by Dale Kemper?).<BR>
<BR>
Paul<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 15:59:05 +1000<BR>
From: "Katharine Whitchurch" <katts@globalfreeway.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re: Ship sizes and shapes<BR>
<BR>
> From: Dalton Spence <dalton.spence@hwcn.org><BR>
> Subject: Re: Ship sizes and shapes<BR>
> THANK YOU VERY MUCH!!! This is *exactly* what I wanted. Sorry for<BR>
> the slow reply, but I've spent the last few days putting together a<BR>
> spreadsheet to design a starport according to the rules in Chapter<BR>
> Five of "GT: Starports." (Are these shapes you mentioned part of a<BR>
> generic Traveller ship classification system or just your personal<BR>
> description of them?) What I have discovered is that while all of<BR>
> the ships listed could land in either small or standard freestanding<BR>
> berths, most would have to move to a larger berth if they needed to<BR>
> fit under a retractable roof. Do you mind if I convert measurements<BR>
> to feet and post the results to the GURPS newsgroup and mailing list<BR>
> as an FYI? (Full credit to you, of course!)<BR>
<BR>
The shapes are out of Fire Fusion and Steel 2, the Trav equivalent of Gurps<BR>
Vehicles (and other stuff. If you want to build an elephant-mounted particle<BR>
accelerator, you want FFS2).<BR>
<BR>
The problem is that those ships represent the low end fairly well, but most<BR>
trade in the Trav universe happens in more-efficient bigger ships - 10 000<BR>
dtons and up.<BR>
<BR>
If you want to repost that stuff, fine. Just mention that they are the<BR>
Famile Spofulam Yards version, and other manufacturers may do things<BR>
differently.<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
> > BTW, you owe me 3 NPCs (written up for G:T is OK) for people likely to<BR>
be<BR>
> > travelling from Glisten to Mire in Darrian space. This is for the Mire<BR>
Run,<BR>
> > a scenario that I posted recently (which I can re-send to people on<BR>
> > request).<BR>
><BR>
> I'm pretty new to the Traveller universe right now, and I don't have<BR>
> a copy of "GT: Behind the Claw" so I know *nothing* about the worlds<BR>
> you mentioned, but I could create generic NPCs from the templates in<BR>
> the four GT books I *do* have if you like. I think from the wording<BR>
> if your request however that you want something a bit less vanilla.<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
I just sent it to you. It's basically a a two month tourist "adventure trip"<BR>
from Glisten to Mire, the capital of the Darrian Confederation (the Darrians<BR>
are E*ves in Sp*ce, who used to be Really High Tech until they accidentally<BR>
blew their sun up. No-one seriously picks on them, for fear that they arent<BR>
bluffing when they say they can do it again to your system).<BR>
<BR>
Ian Whitchurch<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 02:50:23 -0400<BR>
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Peter's view of Traveller (was re: various) LONG<BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Peter Newman has written a lot of strange things lately.  Here are a few,<BR>
> from a couple different posts.<BR>
<BR>
[snip]<BR>
<BR>
Can we argue instead about whether the US Constitution should<BR>
be interpreted strictly referring only to 'framer's intent', or more<BR>
liberally referring the world today?<BR>
<BR>
bloo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 02:49:14 -0400<BR>
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net><BR>
Subject: RE: Just what IS TL? (Was: Notes on building Heya)<BR>
<BR>
Luther Martin said:<BR>
<BR>
<warning extreme surliness in progress, any lapse in civility is purely<BR>
intentional><BR>
<BR>
>> Cannons can be built at TL1, if gunpowder has been discovered.<BR>
><BR>
>I just can't help it. Maybe a TL earlier, but they just can't be *fired* if<BR>
>gunpowder hasn't?<BR>
<BR>
Actually, if you had read the post, specifically the bit that was quoted,<BR>
you might have been able to help yourself. Instead, you took the statement<BR>
out of the context it was in, i.e., a response, which makes it look awfully<BR>
odd. Please note what Hans said, which is clearly in the text *directly<BR>
before the bit of my post that you quoted:<BR>
<BR>
Hans said, "No, I think they work pretty well. It's not the gunpowder itself<BR>
(that's a<BR>
TL 0 technology), it's the cannons and guns that define Weapons TL 3."<BR>
<BR>
Please note, Luther, that Hans said that gunpowder itself is a TL0<BR>
technology. If gunpowder is a TL0 technology, as Hans said, and the<BR>
materials technology to make a cannon exists at TL1, then a society with<BR>
gunpowder can make and fire a cannon at TL1.<BR>
<BR>
>> Suffice to say, I do believe that the TL rating is, in a sense, formal,<BR>
in<BR>
>> that it, "constitutes to the shape and structure of something as<BR>
>> distinguished from its material". Or, to put it another way, it gives a<BR>
>> general suggestion or impression as opposed to being a reference to the<BR>
>> specifics. I understand well that stooping to dictionary definitions<BR>
makes<BR>
>> me a wanker, but I do so only in order to illustrate that I am using the<BR>
>> term correctly.<BR>
><BR>
>I'm afraid that 12 years of education in mathematics and engineering has<BR>
>made it difficult for me to understand this kind of writing. Not that I<BR>
>mind, really.<BR>
<BR>
I'm very happy that you seem willing and able to live with your handicap.<BR>
Given the evidence above (your inability to read "quote and response" style<BR>
posts properly) I don't know what to make of this. Would you like me to<BR>
translate the writing above? There are some long sentences, and my grammar<BR>
isn't always fantastic late at night, but I don't see why one should have<BR>
problems reading the above.<BR>
<BR>
>To me, Chris has passed some sort of "civility threshold." Dropped below<BR>
it,<BR>
>I mean.<BR>
<BR>
Could you kindly explain why that might be?<BR>
<BR>
>Would you talk to someone this way (the tone of his post) in person?<BR>
<BR>
What, self deprecation upon realizing that I'm stooping to the level of<BR>
using dictionary definitions? Keep in mind that there's a context to this<BR>
discussion of which you are either ignorant, or ignoring deliberately.<BR>
Neither one of these options happens to be my problem. Initially, Hans asked<BR>
me for "official" confirmation concerning the arbitrary and abstract nature<BR>
of the tech level rating system. I was merely pointing out that my usage of<BR>
the words is consistent with how they are used in the English language, that<BR>
I don't need Marc or Loren to tell me that the system is abstract or<BR>
arbitrary.<BR>
<BR>
>I know that I wouldn't.<BR>
<BR>
Wow. Thanks for this bit of information concerning how you might conduct<BR>
yourself in person. However, I suspect that you may be confusing me with<BR>
someone who cares about what your opinion of proper personal etiquette is.<BR>
<BR>
>Maybe it's time to unsubscribe again.<BR>
<BR>
Do you want my opinion, or my permission? If you want the latter, go right<BR>
ahead, you have my blessing. If you want the former, I think it might be a<BR>
good idea, especially if your reading skills are impaired to the level you<BR>
have illustrated and mentioned yourself. After all, participation in a<BR>
mailing list relies heavily on the ability to read.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 03:34:16 EDT<BR>
From: GypsyComet@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Far Frontiers Sector Data?<BR>
<BR>
"Sword-Worlder" <swordworlder@yahoo.com><BR>
<BR>
>I have a copy of the manuscript for the Far Frontiers Sector supplement,<BR>
>which was never published.  Is there a particular world or subsector you are<BR>
>looking for, or were you looking for a complete set?<BR>
><BR>
>BTW, is there any interest in seeing this stuff get published?  Print or<BR>
>electronic?<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
>- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
>From: <Qstor@aol.com><BR>
>> Does anyone know of a write up of the UWP's for this sector? I didn't see<BR>
on<BR>
>> on the CORE Web Site...Does any else know where they can be found?<BR>
<BR>
 As the author of the coreward half of this sector as seen in Traveller <BR>
Chronicle, I'd love to see the unpublished version.<BR>
 My stuff is on my HD somewhere (I think, that was two machines ago). The <BR>
Rimward half of the sector saw print in Ares many years ago, then was <BR>
reprinted in Traveller Chronicle. Pieces of the sector appeared in several <BR>
FASA adventures (most notably the Sky Raiders trilogy).<BR>
<BR>
GC<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 04:22:33 EDT<BR>
From: Kagehira@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Planet 3 software<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 4/9/00 4:25:42 PM Pacific Daylight Time, <BR>
owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
> Re: Planet III Software<BR>
>  <BR>
>  In mail you write:<BR>
>  <BR>
>  > At 04:27 PM 4/9/2000 +0100, you wrote:<BR>
>  >>ISTR a post to the effect that Planet III released their Traveller <BR>
> Navigator<BR>
>  >>software into the public domain. However, I can't seem to find the <BR>
> software<BR>
>  >>available anywhere on the web. Does anybody know anything about this? <BR>
Does<BR>
>  >>anybody know where it's possible to find it?<BR>
>  ><BR>
>  > All the links are dead, and the gentleman seems to have moved.  I think<BR>
>  > it's dead Jim.<BR>
>  <BR>
>  But does anyone have a *copy*?<BR>
<BR>
Yes (I believe you do too, it's on the CD). They should hopefully be in the <BR>
process of being posted to the HIWG website.<BR>
<BR>
Bryan<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 00:25:58 -0800<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Peter's view of Traveller<BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith <smithw@hartwick.edu> wrote<BR>
<BR>
> Peter Newman has written a lot of strange things lately. Here are a few,<BR>
<BR>
I find your overall tone throughout this post to have a <BR>
strong tendency to be insulting. I have not insulted you,<BR>
(despite my puzzlement at your apparent inability to read and<BR>
understand simple written english sentences I have quoted from<BR>
the canonical rules) and I would thank you very much not to<BR>
insult me.<BR>
<BR>
> >The canonical text does not say that these designs and others<BR>
> >we have not mentioned are standard it says "these designs"<BR>
> >are standard. Therefore no other designs are standard unless<BR>
> >another subsequent canonical product says that they are standard.<BR>
<BR>
> How arbitrary, limiting, and dull.  Referees aren't permitted to add<BR>
> standard ships to their campaigns?  How do you explain the lack of<BR>
> "canon" designs for troop ships, tankers, and most of the other<BR>
> paraphenalia of interstellar warfare?  That these ships exist is Canon...<BR>
> that's large 'C' Canon, Peter - but where are they?  <BR>
<BR>
As addressed in my earlier posts there is no 'nonstandard'<BR>
category on the Naval Ship Encounter Table. Therefore no<BR>
Naval ships are 'nonstandard' or 'standard' according<BR>
to the definitions used for other types of ships. Referee's<BR>
are free to add create whatever Naval ships they wish as long<BR>
as these ships are either fuel shuttles, fighters, 100,000 tone<BR>
Carriers, 5,000 ton escorts, Fast COuriers, Patrol Escorts'<BR>
1000 ton Escorts, 20,000 ton Cruisers, 50,000 ton Cruisers, <BR>
100,000 Cruisers, or Battleships as these are the only Naval<BR>
ship types listed on the encounter table. No other Naval<BR>
ships can ever be met by random encounter, if a Referee wishes<BR>
to do so it must be for plot purposes only.<BR>
<BR>
> "Standard" is inclusive, not exclusive. <BR>
<BR>
Why, and according to what authority? <BR>
<BR>
None of the 50+ definitions of standard in my OED, the worlds<BR>
most definitive dictionary, include this notion. Nor is this<BR>
included in the American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language's<BR>
definitions: 	standard: 	ADJECTIVE<BR>
1. Serving as or conforming to a standard of measurement or value. <BR>
2. Widely recognized as a model of authority or excellence: "a standard<BR>
reference work." <BR>
3. Acceptable but of less than top quality: "a standard grade of beef." <BR>
4. Normal, familiar, or usual: "the standard excuse." <BR>
5. Commonly used or supplied: "standard car equipment." <BR>
http://www.bartleby.com/61/<BR>
<BR>
Although arguably definition #4 could be inclusive in your<BR>
Traveller Universe if you, as referee, were to say that some<BR>
ships besides the ones on the standard list were "normal, familiar,<BR>
or usual" but the Imperial Encyclopedia clearly states that<BR>
these designs are the standard ones.<BR>
<BR>
> IMO, it is there to indicate that<BR>
> all of the ships listed are standard, merely to inform us that none of them<BR>
> are rare or custom designs - in no way to tell us that we can't have more<BR>
> "standard" ships than this in our campaigns.<BR>
> <BR>
> Peter again:<BR>
> >Given that non standard ships (by canon) do not get the class discount. <BR>
> Bzzzt!  Sorry, thank you for playing. I can make two ships that no one<BR>
> has ever seen before, and as long as the second ship is the same<BR>
> design as the first and built at a shipyard that made the first, the second<BR>
> will get the class discount.  <BR>
<BR>
Yes, so?<BR>
<BR>
You have to pay full price for the first one. This is a strong<BR>
disincentive towards building that first ship. The first ship<BR>
has to be competitive with ships built with standard discounts.<BR>
The rules are telling you that non standard ships are not common<BR>
enough throughout the Imperium to be 'standard'. Some types<BR>
of ships may be common is one part of the Imperium (Al Morai<BR>
liners in the Marches for instance) but almost unknown in other<BR>
parts of the Imperium (Al Morai liners in the Solomani Rim<BR>
for instance).<BR>
<BR>
> Heck, according to Trillion Credit Squadron, I can change the bay/turret<BR>
> weapon loadouts, reduce the size of the spinal mount, eliminate<BR>
> hangar bays, convert cargo bay to crew quarters or fuel, add computers,<BR>
> add or remove bridges, change screens...and none of these will affect<BR>
> the class discount. I can't change drives, armor, or hull configuration,<BR>
> I can't add hardpoints or increase the size of the spinal mount, and<BR>
> I can't add hangar facilities.  Beyond that, I can do anything I want.<BR>
<BR>
This was a MT rules, not CT rules, discussion but assuming we <BR>
accept Trillion Credit Squadron rules as valid for MT then<BR>
yes that is what you can change. Any time a party encounters<BR>
a ship in one of the standard classes it may have any or all <BR>
of the first set of changes made to it. If any of the second <BR>
set of changes are made to it (assuming such changes are even <BR>
possible) can only be encountered if the ship type rolled was <BR>
'Nonstandard'. Nor may any 'Nonstandard' ships ever be _randomly_ <BR>
encountered in systems where they could not be randomly rolled. <BR>
<BR>
> >> That's because the expense rules are written for ship owners, not<BR>
> >> for interstellar trading companies or business concerns who need to<BR>
> >> ship things.<BR>
> ><BR>
> >The owner of a ship _is_ the owner of a (small) interstellar<BR>
> >trading company or business.<BR>
> <BR>
> When he's moving cargo at Cr1000 per dtn, he's not a trading company.<BR>
<BR>
He's still trading. He is trading  a resource he controls<BR>
(his ship) for another resource (cash). He is therefore <BR>
engaging in trade in exactly the same way that any employee<BR>
engages in trade: the employees time and resources for the<BR>
employers money. The ships owner is simply providing a<BR>
service that includes use of a commodity just like a taxi<BR>
driver or an electrician who brings his own tools.<BR>
<BR>
> When he moves speculative cargo, he's trading...and we can guess<BR>
> that some of what was spent on getting the cargo was spent on moving<BR>
> it into the cargo bay.  This will have no relevance to the observatory<BR>
> deciding whether the effort of cargo handling makes a difference in<BR>
> their choice between a power supply that requires cargo transfer and<BR>
> a power supply that only requires pumping, as the observatory isn't<BR>
> taking part in speculative trading.<BR>
<BR>
> >I had not mentioned shuttle fees to and from the high port<BR>
> >because such fees are paid per DT with no distinction made<BR>
> >as to the ease of handling such cargo. This is further evidence<BR>
> >that Traveller has officially chosen to deliberately ignore<BR>
> >any economic realities that would distinguish freight handling<BR>
> >costs. Note that shuttle handling fees do not vary based on<BR>
> >the distance or time of the trip from the high port either.<BR>
> <BR>
> Pg. 53, _The Traveller Book_: "Typical shuttle fares are...".  *Typical*.<BR>
> This shows that the presented fares are an example, and that they are<BR>
> not intended to show all variations or even to supply a range.  Rather<BR>
> than ignore complex "economic realities", this paragraph allows your<BR>
> very anal outlook all the freedom you should need to explore them.<BR>
<BR>
No these rules state that only in atypical situations are<BR>
referees free to pay attention to economic realities. In 'typical'<BR>
(as defined by the referee) circumstances he should use a value<BR>
from that range.<BR>
<BR>
> Peter again:<BR>
> ><BR>
> >"A referee deals with situations that the rules may not cover."<BR>
> >[MT Players Manual p. 6]<BR>
> >Since the canon text explicitly states that a Referee "deals<BR>
> >with situations the rules may not cover" and does not state<BR>
> >"A Referee deals with whatever he feels like dealing with."<BR>
> >this is a clear statement that anything the rules do cover<BR>
> >ought not to be modified by the referee.<BR>
<BR>
> Wake up, Peter.  The rules "may not cover" anything the referee<BR>
> has decided they don't cover.<BR>
<BR>
The referee must be impartial. [MT Ref Manual p. 5-6] Unless <BR>
he can truthfully and impartially say that said decision is <BR>
truly in his opinion outside the rules or said decision is required <BR>
for an impartially created plot then he ought not to do so. <BR>
<BR>
I am not arguing that he may not. I am only arguing that<BR>
according to the rules he should not. There is a vast difference.<BR>
For example I may be rude to people on the net who call me<BR>
a troll but I should not.<BR>
<BR>
> Cargo shuttles being overbooked.<BR>
<BR>
If the good were purchased in orbit then they do not have to<BR>
be moved in shuttles they are considered delivered when placed <BR>
in orbit therefore the question is irrelevant. If the goods<BR>
were purchased on the ground then it is reasonably likely that<BR>
the PC's have a streamlined ship or ships boat to transport<BR>
said cargo. All standard ships listed in the MT Imperial<BR>
Encyclopedia are either streamlined, have a streamlined subcraft,<BR>
or both. Therefore this situation is only likely to matter<BR>
in circumstance where the PC's ship or boat is forbidden to<BR>
land on the planet directly. Such circumstances are adequately<BR>
covered by the Reaction Table or Law Level related dice rolls.<BR>
Therefore only rarely will the Referee be able to deal with <BR>
situation. Even this unlikely circumstance is covered in GT <BR>
Far Trader but may be referee determined in other versions of<BR>
Traveller.<BR>
<BR>
> Highport under medical quarantine. <BR>
<BR>
The decision to place said Highport under medical quarantine<BR>
can be modeled by using the Reaction Table. The appropriate<BR>
authorities reaction to the disease is simply rolled on the<BR>
Reaction Table. Traveller's reaction table can be used to cover <BR>
any situation in which the decision making process of a sophont<BR>
plays a role. <BR>
<BR>
> A corrupt starship inspector<BR>
> refusing to renew a safety certification without a bribe.  A local<BR>
> Imperial official commandeering the players' ship for a priority<BR>
> cargo.  <BR>
<BR>
Both  are covered by the encounter reaction tables. <BR>
<BR>
> Did you ever actually *play* in a Traveller campaign, or just<BR>
> fiddle with the rule books?  The rule books are fun, but by themselves<BR>
> they make a *terrible* Referee!  Not to mention a tedious one...<BR>
<BR>
I have played hundreds of hours of FTF Traveller including in <BR>
the last few years four quite different characters under several<BR>
different versions of Traveller often with house modifications.<BR>
I am currently (2 years now) playing in a PBEM MT w/house rules<BR>
non standard setting campaign, Carlos Alos-Ferrer's excellent<BR>
Behind the Extents game which is located at:<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Station/8772/bte/bte.html<BR>
<BR>
I suspect that both Will and Carlos could tell you something<BR>
to the effect of "Peter is a good player, with interesting<BR>
characters, who has a tendency to be literal. He tends to be<BR>
somewhat of a rules and canon lawyer but willingly, if occasionally<BR>
with some questions, goes along with whatever I as Referee choose<BR>
to do unless (in his opinion with which I do not always agree)<BR>
it is inconsistent with my past practices; even then he acquiesces<BR>
to my decisions as Referee."<BR>
<BR>
> >Walt Smith wrote:<BR>
> >> Fair enough. The referee must be free to ruthlessly exploit opportunities<BR>
> >> for bleeding the player's wallets dry that the rules, common sense,<BR>
> >> his campaign setting and his imagination provides.<BR>
> ><BR>
> >No he must not and is not.<BR>
> <BR>
> He is free to, if a plot being run in the campaign requires it.  He is free<BR>
> not to, for the same reasons.  If he is not so free, then he is wasting his<BR>
> time and you might as well play solitaire...which by your posts I think<BR>
> you've been doing.<BR>
<BR>
No, not in 18-20 years or so.<BR>
<BR>
> >Canon states "And as the term _referee_  implies, a referee<BR>
> >serves as an "impartial expert" for dealing with situations the<BR>
> >rules may not cover." [MT Referee's Manual  p. 5]<BR>
> >This is an explicit statement from the designers of MT that<BR>
> >the Referee ought to be impartial. If the Referee chooses<BR>
> >to attempt to bleed the players dry he is no longer impartial.<BR>
> >If the designers had wanted the Referee to be partial they<BR>
> >would have called him the Storyteller not the Referee.<BR>
<BR>
> A Referee is also intended to place challenges before the players.<BR>
> These can be plots by NPC's and NPC-led organizations, any of which<BR>
> can be expensive for the PC's.  <BR>
> Let's say a Megacorp has decided to make things tough in the current<BR>
> subsector for Free Traders.  They order their factors at every starport to<BR>
> buy up cargos, whether the MegaCorp has cargo space for them or not.<BR>
> The Referee IMPARTIALLY declares that the normal trade tables are <BR>
> not in effect at this time.  Even better, he simply presents the players <BR>
> with disappointing results for excellent rolls with no comment - unless<BR>
> the players investigate.<BR>
> Please do your dogmatic reading of the rules, and tell me where the above<BR>
> campaign event is declared illegal?  Then take your dogmatism and<BR>
> go play with it.<BR>
<BR>
It is not declared illegal per se but nor is it explicitly<BR>
permitted. The power to do this sort of thing is implied but<BR>
not explicitly stated in the RM section on refereeing. Unlike<BR>
in some newer games the MT Ref's Manual does _not_ say that<BR>
the referee is free to modify the results of the rules (except<BR>
in the case of task mishaps which the referee explicitly has<BR>
the power to alter [MT RM p. 6].<BR>
<BR>
On the other hand the rules in the PM seem to imply that a referee<BR>
does not have this power. Absent a canonical statement that<BR>
the PM is lying to the players about the extent of the<BR>
ref's powers this must be a judgment call.<BR>
<BR>
> Peter again:<BR>
> >The cargo acquisition rules do not allow for this situation.<BR>
> >Therefore the Referee is not free to do this.<BR>
<BR>
> The Referee is free to do what will, in his opinion, make his game more<BR>
> interesting.  He is to present challenges to his players.  Deal with it.<BR>
<BR>
He may be allowed to do so by a reading of one part of the<BR>
rules but another part of the rules states otherwise.<BR>
<BR>
> Peter again:<BR>
> >> This situation has appeared in Traveller-published<BR>
> >> adventures.  <BR>
> ><BR>
> >Yes, so? Said adventures were published by the copyright <BR>
> >holder. They have the right to ignore the rules in favor of<BR>
> >a good adventure. The referee does _not_ have that right (a<BR>
> >design philosophy I am not necessarily in agreement with<BR>
> >but one that is clearly stated by the canon I quoted above).<BR>
> You spend a lot of energy defending a design philosophy you've<BR>
> created yourself, through an astoundingly narrow-minded reading<BR>
> of a set of guidelines called a rule book.<BR>
<BR>
> >Canon states that the Referee is "impartial" and exists to<BR>
> >cover situations the rules "may not cover". Since the<BR>
> >freight and cargo acquisition rules do cover this situation<BR>
> >the Referee is not free to modify them.<BR>
> <BR>
> The Referee can modify anything he damn well feels like modifying,<BR>
> Peter.  He can make Jump Space take a day, or a month.  He can<BR>
> invent Laser Pistols and Lightsabers.  He can have a giant hand<BR>
> reach out from space and crush the players' starship if he thinks it<BR>
> fitting to do so.  His only limitation is that he and the players have<BR>
> an interesting and enjoyable game.<BR>
<BR>
I am not talking about what he _can_ do I am talking about<BR>
what he can do without breaking the rules and what he ought<BR>
to do. Your continuing apparent inability or unwillingness to <BR>
understand this distinction is rather troublesome.<BR>
<BR>
> The freight and cargo acquisition rules are intended to present usual<BR>
> outcomes from usual situations.  I cannot fathom how you extended <BR>
> that to mean that the Referee is forbidden from creating UNUSUAL<BR>
> situations where the outcomes will be different.  Have you ever played<BR>
> and RPG?  Of any kind?<BR>
<BR>
> In case you weren't paying attention:  If the Referee decides that the<BR>
> players aren't getting a cargo of pharmaceuticals at this port, they aren't.<BR>
> No matter what the die rolls say.  If the Referee decides that an outbreak<BR>
> of Flashrot Plague in a nearby star system will force the players to<BR>
> undergo an expensive and time-consuming health inspection, they will<BR>
> get inspected and pay for it.  If the Referee decides X, then X will happen.<BR>
<BR>
> >> There is nothing in the rules to cover labor disputes<BR>
> >> that shut down the loading dock the players are docked at, does this<BR>
> >> curtail the referee from using such a situation?<BR>
<BR>
> >The rules do cover this matter. The cargo acquisition rules<BR>
> >do not state that there is any possibility whatsoever<BR>
> >that once cargo has been acquired that it can not be brought <BR>
> >to the ship. Therefore no such possibility must exist or<BR>
> >it would have been provided for. <BR>
<BR>
> We have it from Loren on this mailing list that the absence of anything<BR>
> is proof of nothing, in any part of the Traveller rules. <BR>
<BR>
My understanding of what Loren said is that the absence of Traveller <BR>
data on a specific subject (abortion, cannibalism, Elvis<BR>
worship, popularity of iambic pentameter, etc) can not be read<BR>
as evidence that the such issues do not occur in the Imperium.<BR>
It may simply have been left out for reasons of usefulness,<BR>
play value, controversy, or the like. However Loren did not<BR>
say "The referee should ignore all the rules when he feels<BR>
like it." My understanding of his statement was that it referred<BR>
to background canon not to rules canon.<BR>
 <BR>
> He specifically<BR>
> was talking of how prevalent cloning technology was, but it sounds<BR>
> very applicable to labor disputes.  Labor unrest features in several<BR>
> Amber Zones and Adventures, so the usual effects thereof make perfect<BR>
> sense to present as "challenges" from the Referee, when the Referee<BR>
> thinks they are appropriate.<BR>
<BR>
Yes the referee may apply such results to player charecters if<BR>
he sees fit but as always the referee ought to be impartial.<BR>
Impartiality is a difficult goal therefore referees ought to<BR>
be circumspect in their use of power.<BR>
<BR>
Without canonical evidence for the existance of labor disputes<BR>
in the Third Imperium (Doug Berry did write a nice article on<BR>
this subject and I am not dismissing it as noncanonical but it<BR>
is not unreasonable to consider the clear statements of the MT<BR>
rules themselves as more canonical that a JTAS article, especially<BR>
an Imperium Games JTAS article) the referee should only present<BR>
labor disputes as part of a predetermined plot, as an<BR>
explanation for PC failure to acquire any cargo, or a random<BR>
encounter with worker, rowdies, thugs, fugitives, vigilantees,<BR>
a riotous mob or some similar category from the 'Random Encounters'<BR>
table that he can explain as parties to a labor dispute.<BR>
<BR>
> >The reaction of the NPC starship should be determined by<BR>
> >the Starship encounters table and possibly by the reaction<BR>
> >table.<BR>
> <BR>
> A hit from a starship laser is expensive.  Do you really believe that <BR>
> such a hit is the *only* unexpected expense or aggravation that a<BR>
> Free Trader crew will encounter?  That they'll never encounter anything<BR>
> inconvenient that isn't on the encounter tables?<BR>
<BR>
Of course they might but such encounters ought to be part<BR>
of a pre planned plot (such as that of the Traveller<BR>
Adventures). Referees ought not to simply hose PC's<BR>
whenever they feel like it. Referee's ought to follow<BR>
the rules as written and come up with impartial (yet<BR>
creative) events whithin the limited areas not covered<BR>
by the rules and thus permitted to the referee.<BR>
<BR>
I am merely quoteing the MT Referees Manual. If you<BR>
disagree then your disagreement is with it, not with<BR>
me.<BR>
<BR>
Any inconvenience that is required for purposes of a plot<BR>
must be impartially created by the Referee per the Refs Manual<BR>
description of his role as an "impartial expert". Therefore<BR>
no referee ought to (for instance) arrange for the PC's to<BR>
loose all their money simply because he finds it difficult to<BR>
create adventures for rich PC's. He may (but probably should not)<BR>
however cause them to loose all their money if this is required<BR>
for plot purposes. If he can not do so impartially he ought<BR>
not to Referee.<BR>
<BR>
A Traveller Referee plays a much more limited role than a<BR>
Game Master, Dungeon Master, Narrator, or Storyteller in other<BR>
game systems. This design philosophy is explicit in MT<BR>
"Your purpose as a referee is to present obstacles for players<BR>
to overcome as they go about seeking their goals, not to constantly<BR>
make trouble for them." [MT Ref Man p. 6]<BR>
<BR>
> I'm undecided at this point as to whether you're a troll, or simply an <BR>
> unusually narrow-minded gamer - narrow-minded to the point of<BR>
> obtuseness.  Which is it?<BR>
<BR>
Certain lacunae implicit in this statement are not conceded.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2283<BR>
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Traveller-digest       Monday, April 10 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2284<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Astronomy in the 57th Century<BR>
On Referees<BR>
Re: Astronomy in the 57th Century<BR>
Re: Basic Economics (was Re: Astronomy in the 57th Century)<BR>
Re: Striker miniatures & other stuff<BR>
Re: Ludowick Gambit<BR>
Re: Smart weapons<BR>
Re: That pesky TL definition again<BR>
Re: Far Frontiers Sector Data?<BR>
Re: Leonard<BR>
Re: Far Frontiers Sector Data?<BR>
Lost Keith Bros Supplements<BR>
RE: Peter's view of Traveller<BR>
Re: RS<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 01:08:12 -0800<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Astronomy in the 57th Century<BR>
<BR>
"Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com> wrote<BR>
<BR>
> >> There is nothing in the rules to cover a rival corp buying up all cargos<BR>
> >> at a certain port, so that the players are left dry no matter what they<BR>
> >> roll on Admin tasks.  <BR>
<BR>
> >The cargo acquisition rules do not allow for this situation.<BR>
> >Therefore the Referee is not free to do this.<BR>
<BR>
> I have been reading this thread with increasing annoyance, but this took<BR>
> the cake.To date, I am unaware of any Rules Enforcement Squad, either GDW, IG > or SJG, that will sweep down upon a Referee for writing such a situation into<BR>
> his game.<BR>
<BR>
No one expects the Traveller Inquisition! Amongst our many<BR>
weapons are fear, surprise, a ruthless efficiency, and an<BR>
almost fanatical devotion to canon. [d, r]<BR>
<BR>
Quite right. I should have said that, at least according to<BR>
a literal reading of the rules I quoted, the referee ought not<BR>
to do this. THe referee is free to do so the question is id<BR>
he _should_ do this. <BR>
<BR>
> Remember how Han Solo got involved with the Star Wars crew?  That's story<BR>
> advancement.<BR>
<BR>
It sure is but Traveller has a referee, not a storyteller.<BR>
They are different roles. In some ways a storyteller is<BR>
better but in some ways a referee is better.<BR>
<BR>
> >> There is nothing in the rules to cover labor disputes<BR>
> >> that shut down the loading dock the players are docked at, does this<BR>
> >> curtail the referee from using such a situation?<BR>
> ><BR>
> >The rules do cover this matter. The cargo acquisition rules<BR>
> >do not state that there is any possibility whatsoever<BR>
> >that once cargo has been acquired that it can not be brought <BR>
> >to the ship. Therefore no such possibility must exist or<BR>
> >it would have been provided for. <BR>
> <BR>
> Well, since I wrote Strike! for JTAS #26, am I the final authority on labor<BR>
> relations inside the Third Imperium?<BR>
<BR>
That's Marc job but until and unless he does so you will <BR>
do.<BR>
<BR>
Normally I would say that it is the article itself that<BR>
has meaning not the writer himself. In this case I have<BR>
infinitely more regard for your respect for canon than I<BR>
do for IG's then yes you are an authority on the subject.<BR>
<BR>
I also note that if publication in an IG product was sufficient<BR>
to make something canon then Traveller would be a whole<BR>
different game. You wrote a good article but publication<BR>
in IG's JTAS does not IMHO make something canon. YMMV.<BR>
<BR>
> My God, the number of things not covered in Traveller canon.. when I began<BR>
> writing Ground Forces, I discovered that almost nothing in canon existed<BR>
> about them.  A few unit IDs, some organizational charts, but nothing about<BR>
> the larger form of the Army and Marines.<BR>
<BR>
I agree that background canon is lacking in many areas; what I am<BR>
saying is that MT rules canon restricts the referee to a narrower<BR>
role than that of a GM in some other game systems.<BR>
<BR>
> Does this mean that Traveller gamers couldn't use the Imperial Army?  No!<BR>
> It was just left for the Referee to fill in.  When Ground Forces comes out,<BR>
> you will see canon as writing by me, filter through Loren and Marc.  You<BR>
> are free to use it or ignore as you feel fit.  You will not hurt my<BR>
> feelings if you decide that the Imperial Marines board enemy vessels waving<BR>
> hyperdense cutlasses.<BR>
<BR>
No that's for pirates :)<BR>
<BR>
> >Now if your players failed in their rolls to acquire any<BR>
> >cargo in the first place and you, as Referee, explained that<BR>
> >the reason they failed was because of the labor strike this<BR>
> >would be consistent with the rules.<BR>
<BR>
> And if they found a cargo?  What about the 20+ hours I invested in the Last<BR>
> Stand At the Circle K Adventure when they load up on Machine Parts and jump<BR>
> out-system?  <BR>
<BR>
Use the 1d6 days to find a cargo rule and have the preplanned<BR>
encounter occur before the task of finding the cargo is<BR>
complete.<BR>
<BR>
> Or am I to stop the game every time they roll a patron encounter, and go<BR>
> off to sketch together an adventure?<BR>
<BR>
As a referee you need to be capable of coming up with a<BR>
patron on the spur of the moment (possibly by stealing from<BR>
reality or fiction) or using a published resource. As an<BR>
example the patron could be an exact rip off of a former<BR>
employer of yours.<BR>
<BR>
> >I also note that shutting down the labor docks at a Imperial<BR>
> >Port is arguably an Imperial Crime since the Imperium is<BR>
> >based on trade. However since trade wars, which also threaten<BR>
> >trade, are canonical I'd simply make labor disputes follow the <BR>
> >Imperial Rules of War rather than forbidding them.<BR>
<BR>
> I'll see if I still have a copy of Strike anywhere, and send it to you.<BR>
<BR>
I've got a copy (somewhere) but thank you for the offer anyway.<BR>
<BR>
> Trust me as a Teamster, making strikes illegal doesn't stop them.  The<BR>
> disruption of regular action is the goal of the strikers.<BR>
<BR>
Making anything illegal does not stop them. However penalties<BR>
for crimes do have some deterant effect some of the time.<BR>
<BR>
I am simply not sure that the Imperium would choose to<BR>
allow group of people to disrupt the operations of their<BR>
starports by going out on strike (in Imperially controlled<BR>
ports). Canon says that the law level in starports is<BR>
fairly low. I have always interpreted this to include civil<BR>
law as well. Therefore it seems to me that if you go on strike<BR>
in an Imperial Extrality zone your boss is legally entitled<BR>
to fire you all and hire replacement workers. He is also<BR>
allowed to fire you for joining a union in the first place.<BR>
He is also allowed (and possibly encouraged) to have<BR>
striking workers on (and possibly arround) his property<BR>
removed and/or arrested if they disturb his operations or<BR>
his replacement workers.<BR>
<BR>
I am not necessarily saying that I agree with the philosophy<BR>
above. I am simply saying that it seems to be a reasonably <BR>
likely possibility for the trade is important, human rights <BR>
are not, low control rating Imperium we see in canon. <BR>
<BR>
> >The reaction of the NPC starship should be determined by<BR>
> >the Starship encounters table and possibly by the reaction<BR>
> >table.<BR>
<BR>
> And if on the first night of gaming, after hours of my preparation and<BR>
> their character generation, the first starship encounter is a Broadsword<BR>
> Pirate?  What then?<BR>
<BR>
Roll for the pirates reaction. If it is not hostile than<BR>
you can assume they don't attack the players. If so there<BR>
is no problem. If their reaction is hostile then you know<BR>
that the pirates would like to attack. Then you will have to<BR>
decide based on the systems available anti piracy resources<BR>
if anything will deter them as from attacking (you might roll<BR>
for the pirates reaction to the system defense boat<BR>
for instance). If they want to and feel safe in attacking (and <BR>
the PC's cant get out of the situation) then you as referee <BR>
will have to decide if you are going to follow the rules (and <BR>
let the attack occur) or ignore them.<BR>
<BR>
I am not necessarily defending the design philosophy in the<BR>
rules I am merely quoting it. As written the rules say that <BR>
the referee should be impartial. It seems to me that letting<BR>
the PC's avoid the pirates when the dice say that they should<BR>
have a pirate encounter then the ref is not being impartial.<BR>
Your mileage may vary.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 05:51:14 -0400<BR>
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
Subject: On Referees<BR>
<BR>
If this stupid, irrelevant, annoying and childish debate<BR>
is going to continue, at least it should start at Book 1,<BR>
Page 1.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Book One:<BR>
Page 1:<BR>
"We have tried to make these rules as complete as possible,<BR>
with provisions for both solitaire and unsupervised play.<BR>
But the main thrust of the game has been that of refereed<BR>
or umpired scenarios and campaigns.  The use of a separate,<BR>
independent referee allows a large degree of flexibility and<BR>
continuity often not possible if the players themselves control<BR>
the game.  In addition, the referee inserts some measure of<BR>
uncertainty in the minds of the players as they travel the<BR>
universe."<BR>
<BR>
Page 2:<BR>
"Recommended instead is the refereed game (wherein a<BR>
separate player administers the rules and secretly creates<BR>
and manipulates situations).<BR>
<BR>
"The referee should generate the basic facts of his<BR>
universe before play begins."<BR>
<BR>
Page 3:<BR>
"Crucial to the continuing campaign is the referee; he<BR>
actually creates a universe, and then catalogs the creatures<BR>
and societies which populate it."<BR>
<BR>
bloo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2000 23:38:56 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Astronomy in the 57th Century<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>>> FF&S specifies that fuel cells burn hydrocarbon distillates or LHyd.<BR>
>>Does it make any mention of them needing an oxygen supply?<BR>
><BR>
> Yes it does. I don't have the reference (having left FFS at uni), but<BR>
> there's a section on splitting fuel tankage for airbreathing engines (fuel<BR>
> and LOX) to allow them to operate in a vacuum or hostile atmosphere.<BR>
><BR>
> (c.f. somebody's earlier point about FFS allegedly stating that internal<BR>
> combustion engines not needing an air supply).<BR>
<BR>
That was me, making a guess about a likely loophole in the rules. <BR>
<BR>
I'm reminded of a lovely bit in "First Lensman" where to be able to<BR>
sneak up on a planet to spy on a drug operation they built a special<BR>
ship. It had an auxilary power planet that didn't give off detectable<BR>
emissions... A diesel generator! <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2000 23:48:45 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Basic Economics (was Re: Astronomy in the 57th Century)<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) wrote<BR>
><BR>
>> >> Who said anything about a "specialized container ship"?<BR>
>> >> if there is a "standard" design that can do two J-1s<BR>
>> >> without refueling, and has the requisite cargo capacity, *that* is what<BR>
>> >> will be used. <BR>
><BR>
>> > there may not be a standard (i.e. cheaper due to class discounts)<BR>
>> > small merchant design that is built for 2 jump 1's.<BR>
><BR>
>> Hold it right there. It implies no such thing. All that it does is show<BR>
>> that the folks designing the ships in the books (which are frequently<BR>
>> not even legal designs under the rules!) didn't happen to think of<BR>
>> drawing up such a ship.<BR>
><BR>
> "The designs listed here are standard: that is, each ship type <BR>
> is mass-produced in shipyards throughout the Imperium, which<BR>
> provides economies of scale and saves the fees of a ship architect."<BR>
> [MT ImpEnc p 76]<BR>
><BR>
> The canonical text does not say that these designs and others<BR>
> we have not mentioned are standard it says "these designs"<BR>
> are standard. Therefore no other designs are standard unless<BR>
> another subsequent canonical product says that they are standard.<BR>
<BR>
Ok, that's it. End of conversation. You are not *rational* on the<BR>
subject of the rules. You are "everything which is not mandatory is<BR>
forbidden". <BR>
<BR>
I expect that nothing short of a direct statement from Marc Miller<BR>
would sway you, and even then you'd interpret it to death rather than<BR>
take it as meant.<BR>
<BR>
>> No. It is anathema to *you*. Based on a "look and feel" you are<BR>
>> inferring, but that is almost certainly *not* the intent of the author.<BR>
>> The very paragraph you quote that mentions handling fees *proves* that<BR>
>> it *is* something the authors envisioned.<BR>
><BR>
> No it does not. If the authors had envisioned such handling<BR>
> fee's varying based on cargo characteristics they would have <BR>
> mentioned it.<BR>
<BR>
And *that* is the exact problem. Authors *don't* write rules and<BR>
supplements that way. Several on the list have already stated this. <BR>
<BR>
Again, you are *assuming* that failure to *explicitly mention*<BR>
something means it is impossible. Which means you don't even *begin* to<BR>
understand the most *basic* principles of role playing games. Namely,<BR>
that the rules are a *framework*, and *subordinate* to the needs of the<BR>
game.<BR>
<BR>
Others have tried to point out the same thing to you. <BR>
<BR>
So this is my last message to you since with your attitude, it's not<BR>
*possible* for you to provide any *useful* input about the game since<BR>
you don't understand the most fundamental principles of it. <BR>
<BR>
Alas, my mailer won't let me filter out messages from you so I may<BR>
accidentally reply to your posts from time to time. That will not be<BR>
evidence that I've changed my mind, merely that I didn't notice your<BR>
name in the header.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 00:08:26 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Striker miniatures & other stuff<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Heck, if you use Striker II, it _is_ a "microarmor" game, since Striker<BR>
> II is based on GDW'a "Command Decision" rules.<BR>
><BR>
> In other words, using Striker II, you can get WW II grognards into<BR>
> Traveller, merely by providing them with the appropriate unit/vehicle<BR>
> charts.<BR>
<BR>
And then *really* piss them off when Klaatu's flying saucer lands... :-)<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 00:12:58 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Ludowick Gambit<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> The way to dodge this bugbear is to deliberately misjump by accident.  In <BR>
> this version, you _do_ make an ordinary jump (not an attempt to tweak the <BR>
> j-drive), but you make it from within 100D of some massive body (like Oprah).<BR>
> This version of the Gambit should still work.<BR>
><BR>
> Otherwise, what happens when a ship jumps from inside the danger zone to <BR>
> escape some immediate threat (attacking vessel), its crew knowing that they<BR>
> risk misjump?  Will their ship become an automatic disappearance or super-<BR>
> misjump?  <BR>
<BR>
They aren't *trying* to misjump. There's still a *large* chance that<BR>
they won't misjump. <BR>
<BR>
Misjump is 13+. Inside 100 diameters is a +5. Which means it takes a<BR>
roll of 8+ to misjump. That's less than 50%. Of course you also get +1<BR>
for unrefined fuel, +1 for each month you "stretch" maintenance (ie, +1<BR>
if it's been 13 months since your last "annual" maintenance, +2 if it's<BR>
been 14 moths, etc), +1 for each engineer less than the required<BR>
number.<BR>
<BR>
Inside *10* diameters is where it gets scary. That's a +10. Which means<BR>
you misjump on a 3 or better. Or automatically, if *any* of the other<BR>
modifiers apply.<BR>
<BR>
Oh yeah, 16+ (modified) result is "ship destroyed". So inside 100<BR>
diameters, you get destroyed on an 11+. Inside 10 diameters you get<BR>
destroyed on a 6+.<BR>
<BR>
Hmmm. While the rules don't list it, I'd say a jump from the surface<BR>
would be a +15. Which makes misjump happen on a -2+. And destruction<BR>
occur on a 1+. In short, you'd better have enough engineering skill to<BR>
put in some -DMs :-)<BR>
<BR>
Hey, while we are at it, how about a -5 DM at more than 1000 diameters?<BR>
That'd make it *possible* to get away with jumps with a ship that badly<BR>
needed maintenance, or was short on crew. It'd just take a *day* at 1 g<BR>
to get out that far. And there wouldn't be any friendly customs<BR>
cutters...<BR>
<BR>
> In all seriousness, I think the Gambit would be _extremely_ rare, and used <BR>
> only a few times in history (if at all).  I was thinking of the Greek cou-<BR>
> rier, who delivered a warning about the coming Persians, only to fall dead <BR>
> after delivering his message (he had run almost non-stop for 3 days, IIRC).<BR>
<BR>
No, he'd just run for a few hours. From the battle of Marathon.<BR>
"Marathons" are the *exact* length of his run. But *he* wasn't trained<BR>
for it, nor was he holding anything in reserve.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 00:38:48 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Smart weapons<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> In a message dated 4/9/00 5:08:42 PM !!!First Boot!!!, <BR>
> shadow@krypton.rain.com writes:<BR>
><BR>
> << I fully expect that before this sort of "safety feature" even becomes<BR>
>  widespread we'll see a lawsuit when someone dies because they<BR>
>  *couldn't* get the gun to fire.<BR>
>   >><BR>
><BR>
> I can see EVERY Police union in the United States suing NOT to be issued <BR>
> with "smart" weapons (the ultimate oxymoron...)<BR>
<BR>
Actually, it seems cops are (somewhat) in *favor* of them. They *know*<BR>
how many officers get shot with their own weapon after it is taken away<BR>
from them during a fight.<BR>
<BR>
Of course, once the folks on the street find out whether it's the ring<BR>
or wristband or <whatever> that enables firing, they'll just take that<BR>
after disarming the officer. But it *will* make it harder to shoot the<BR>
officer *during* the initial struggle.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 00:41:44 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: That pesky TL definition again<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> I've been considering the "TL is locally sustainable technology" for a couple<BR>
> of days and the more I think of it, the less useful I find it. For instance,<BR>
> I've been wondering what the locally sustainable technology of Denmark is and<BR>
> I don't think it is much more than 3. Oh, we might manage something more in<BR>
> selected areas, but across the board we'd be hard pressed to hold on to more<BR>
> than level 3 if we were suddenly cut off from trading with the rest of the<BR>
> world. You see, Denmark has very little in the way of mineral resources. Cut<BR>
> off our imports and we'd be in big trouble. We used to have a little iron in<BR>
> a form the English name of which I don't know (it is found in bogs).<BR>
<BR>
"bog iron" :-)<BR>
<BR>
> No coal though, so no steel.<BR>
<BR>
Actually, you can use charcoal.<BR>
<BR>
> Nevertheless, Denmark's locally sustainable TL is propably around 3. And it<BR>
> was 3 when we used steam engines (TL 4) and when we got radio (TL 5) and<BR>
> television (TL 6) and sattelite communication (TL 7). And it will remain<BR>
> TL 3 when we get grav vehicles and meson communicators. So to claim that<BR>
> Denmark, which abounds in personal computers and imported cars, has a TL<BR>
> of 3 makes the designation rather useless. Or as someone else pointed out,<BR>
> New York has a locally sustainable technology of about 1, but how useful<BR>
> is that to know?<BR>
<BR>
I'm somewhat inclined to go with "what the locals can build repair,<BR>
given the raw materials". Which may mean that Denmark can't handle<BR>
semiconductors (or do you have chip fabrication facilities in the country?)<BR>
<BR>
Note that this allows you to claim any *manufacturing* facilities, but<BR>
not any *assembly* facilities. Thus all those countries that are<BR>
assembling electronic devices out of *components* that are shipped in<BR>
rather than produced locally *don't* get to claim that as their TL. <BR>
<BR>
> Now, reluctant as I am to admit it, Book 3 does indeed say that TL indicates<BR>
> "the general quality and capability of local industry". But there is two<BR>
> things wrong with that: For one, there are worlds in the OTU that simply do<BR>
> not have the population to man any factories at all, let alone enough<BR>
> different factories to provide a balanced variety of technological goods<BR>
> (And I do NOT believe that the explanation of guest workers holds water in<BR>
> most cases). For another, being able to build something does not always mean<BR>
> that it is locally sustainable technology. In Denmark we have factories<BR>
> making advanced computer components. But we couldn't keep up building those<BR>
> if we were suddenly cut off from trade.<BR>
<BR>
Having the skills and tools to make TL X items makes you TL X. At least<BR>
that's the rule I'd use for pop 2 and under. <BR>
<BR>
> Finally, one of the points of _Hard Times_ is that the TL of many worlds are<BR>
> NOT, in fact, locally sustainable.<BR>
<BR>
Well, one of the reasons given for that is that they'd had the people<BR>
with the required skills get killed without passing them on, or they<BR>
had the folks with the skills, but the *facilities* had been destroyed.<BR>
<BR>
Remember, one of the assumptions of Hard Times is that "every" world<BR>
has had *some* form of widespread destruction visited upon it.<BR>
<BR>
> Book 3 also says that TL indicates "the general types or categories of goods<BR>
> in general use on the world" and "the general ability of local technology to<BR>
> repair or maintain items". Well, if you forget the requirement that local<BR>
> goods HAS to be made locally, it all fits quite nicely. As I said, we don't<BR>
> manufacture cars in Denmark, but we sure have a thriving car repair and<BR>
> maintenance industry.<BR>
<BR>
And given the raw materials, you could *make* most of the repair parts.<BR>
<BR>
> So I maintain that the best, that is, most useful, definintion of TL is that<BR>
> it is what is in general use on the planet, not necessesarily what can be<BR>
> built on that planet, rather than what can be built locally with imports<BR>
> allowing substantially higher technology in _general_ use.<BR>
<BR>
Well, I'd say "general, non-luxury use". And even that isn't quite<BR>
right. Because as I've said before, I can see both medical and<BR>
communications tech being imported even at *high* cost. Yet that won't<BR>
make that the local TL. <BR>
<BR>
On the other hand, it *does* mean* that PCs can *buy* that sort of item<BR>
locally. But it may be *expensive*. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 01:11:27 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Far Frontiers Sector Data?<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> I have a copy of the manuscript for the Far Frontiers Sector supplement,<BR>
> which was never published.  Is there a particular world or subsector you are<BR>
> looking for, or were you looking for a complete set?<BR>
><BR>
> BTW, is there any interest in seeing this stuff get published?  Print or<BR>
> electronic?<BR>
<BR>
Electronic is fine. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 01:32:12 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Leonard<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>> I *did* do some work with the FF&S2 folks, but we all know what a<BR>
>> certain nameless company did to *that*.<BR>
>><BR>
>> Also, there's a *big* difference between knowing enough to be able to<BR>
>> say a table is badly broken and knowing enough to write an *accurate*<BR>
>> replacement.<BR>
>><BR>
><BR>
> Stuff getting it right on the first pass. Get something out into the field<BR>
> that is better, and then other people have a platform for building best.<BR>
><BR>
> A model of this is my High Performance Accumulators post - I fudged up some<BR>
> numbers, put in an implied heat/crystal structure/whatever overload function<BR>
> to stop them being used in starship weapons, and got it out.<BR>
><BR>
> Are they completely accurate ? I dunno.<BR>
><BR>
> Are they good enough ? Well, people didnt kick the snot out of them.<BR>
><BR>
> Do the same with Fuel Cells and TL 1-7 life support. I can send you the FFS2<BR>
> tables for both.<BR>
<BR>
Oh all right. Just keep in mind that I can't read MS Word or RTF files.<BR>
I can read WP 5.1 files, and could probably get a PDF reader running<BR>
again. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 10:35:40 +0100<BR>
From: "Derrick Jones" <dojones.whitestar@btinternet.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Far Frontiers Sector Data?<BR>
<BR>
Sword Worlder wrote...<BR>
<BR>
>I have a copy of the manuscript for the Far Frontiers Sector supplement,<BR>
>which was never published.  Is there a particular world or subsector you are<BR>
>looking for, or were you looking for a complete set?<BR>
<BR>
>BTW, is there any interest in seeing this stuff get published?  Print or<BR>
>electronic?<BR>
<BR>
Does it step on the toes of the stiff in TTC?<BR>
<BR>
Derrick<BR>
<BR>
Derrick Jones<BR>
St Helens<BR>
Lancashire UK<BR>
http://www.btinternet.com/~dojones.whitestar<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 11:30:44 +0100<BR>
From: "Derrick Jones" <dojones.whitestar@btinternet.com><BR>
Subject: Lost Keith Bros Supplements<BR>
<BR>
Woo hoo, they're here. I've been waking up every morning<BR>
just before the postman arrives for the last few weeks in<BR>
anticipation of their impending arrival. No postie this morning<BR>
at 7am, but a parcel delivery just 10 minutes ago.<BR>
<BR>
First looks... I'm very impressed.. The detail that Paul has gone <BR>
into is immense. Imperial Starport authority bar chits....<BR>
Amazing. <BR>
<BR>
I'd like to publicly thank Paul for all his time and effort, sometimes<BR>
in the face of criticism, for a job well done. I'd also like to thank him<BR>
for rewarding my miniscule amount of help so generously. There<BR>
are some that would forget little things, and make empty promises<BR>
with no intention of standing by them. Not so Mr Sanders. He kept<BR>
his promise to someone who he'd never met, or was ever likely to.<BR>
<BR>
A gentleman and a scholar!<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Derrick<BR>
<BR>
Derrick Jones<BR>
St Helens<BR>
Lancashire UK<BR>
http://www.btinternet.com/~dojones.whitestar<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 11:56:45 +0100<BR>
From: Matt Bond <MBOND@karpad.demon.co.uk><BR>
Subject: RE: Peter's view of Traveller<BR>
<BR>
Peter,<BR>
<BR>
What *do* you consider canon? You seem to feel that only MT is<BR>
acceptable as a source, so I do hope you have the complete errata <g><BR>
<BR>
If you deign to consider CT as canon (as I am at work and only have the<BR>
CT Reprints to hand) I would like to quote the following canon<BR>
statements:<BR>
<BR>
"Standard Designs: There are a number of standard design plans<BR>
available; they have been in use for a long time and are available for a<BR>
nominal fee (Cr 100 for the set). Standard starship plans available are:<BR>
100-ton Scout/Courier, 200-ton Free Trader, 200-ton Yacht, 400-ton<BR>
Subsidised Merchant, 600-ton Subsidised Liner, 800-ton Mercenary<BR>
Cruiser, and 400-ton Patrol Cruiser. Standard plans are also available<BR>
for the following small craft: 20-ton Launch, 30-ton Ship's Boat, 30-ton<BR>
Slow Boat, 40-ton Pinnace, 40-ton Slow Pinnace, 50-ton Cuter, 95-ton<BR>
Shuttle, and 10-ton Fighter. Other standard plans may be available at<BR>
various localities."<BR>
CT Bk2 Starships, p12<BR>
<BR>
Note the last sentence, it explicitly states that there are 'standard'<BR>
designs *beyond* those explicitly listed.<BR>
<BR>
"When you have become familiar with the basic rules, you can begin<BR>
modifying them if desired..."<BR>
CT Bk0 Introduction to Traveller, p13.<BR>
<BR>
"Referees should feel free to modify any rule to whatever extent they<BR>
see fit..."[List of caveats re: rules being interlinked; Play Balance;<BR>
Rational, Logical & Scientific soundness of changes, Speed of<BR>
communication must not exceed speed of travel, subsequent traveller<BR>
products may not match your changes, if they are large modifications]<BR>
CT Bk0 Introduction to Traveller, p34.<BR>
<BR>
[re Trade & Commerce]"...indeed in most cases, some deviation from the<BR>
letter of these rules is desirable, but the spirit (i.e. the general<BR>
system) should be preserved"<BR>
CT Bk0 Introduction to Traveller, p34.<BR>
<BR>
"If you don't have time to create your own universe, but would still<BR>
like to run something more than scenarios, Games Designers' Workshop has<BR>
created a universe which can be used as is or slightly modified."<BR>
CT Bk0 Introduction to Traveller, p16.<BR>
<BR>
"The referee is must settle disputes about the rules (and may use his<BR>
own imagination while doing so, rather than strictly adhering to the<BR>
letter of the rules."<BR>
CT Bk1 Characters & Combat, p7.<BR>
<BR>
"Starship Encounters<BR>
When a starship enters a system, there is a chance it will encounter any<BR>
one of a number of different ships going about their business. Very<BR>
often, the exact encounter is the responsibility of the referee; for<BR>
routine encounters, or for inspiration, the accompanying starship<BR>
encounter table is provided."<BR>
CT Bk2 Starships, p34.<BR>
<BR>
As you can see, canon allows for standard ships other than those<BR>
explicitly listed, allows referees to modify rules, allows for encounter<BR>
tables to be guides to routine encounters rather than the only ships<BR>
that can be encountered etc etc<BR>
<BR>
Matt<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 07:05:37 -0400<BR>
From: "Chauncey Smith" <csmith@ICDC.com><BR>
Subject: Re: RS<BR>
<BR>
My opinion is that I won't sell the books in the normal manner I would do it<BR>
via the web and the ebay and TML. there has been TML only offers before.<BR>
that you just don't see in stores even though they usually net something<BR>
like a few hundred copies I  believe with the infusion of NEW blood (AKA<BR>
GURPS TRAVELLER players) we can get nearer to a 1k of ppl. and then there is<BR>
ebay and it's normal feeding frenzies.<BR>
<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
From: Keith Johnson <keithalanjohnson@home.com><BR>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Date: Sunday, April 09, 2000 4:16 PM<BR>
Subject: Re: RS<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>At 01:07 PM 4/9/00 -0400, you wrote:<BR>
>I don't think First In had a print run of ten thousand, and distributors<BR>
>haven't bought all of our copies yet.  Given the rate it is selling we will<BR>
>need to reprint the book, but for right now we have first print run copies<BR>
>sitting in Warehouse 23.<BR>
><BR>
>All things being equal, I agree with Dom.  If there was a significant<BR>
>amount of stock left over, it probably would have gone through the<BR>
>distribution chain already.<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
>>And if<BR>
>>you are serious about selling into the distribution chain at $20 a<BR>
>>piece I think that you are over estimating the margins that the OEM<BR>
>>makes.<BR>
><BR>
>Exactly.  By the time the retailer and distributor take their cut, your<BR>
>customer usually pays double of what you get for the book.  If you sell it<BR>
>for $10 to the distributor, then your customer will probably see it for<BR>
>$20.  If you sell it for $20, then your customer will see it for $40.<BR>
><BR>
>Regardless, the distributor is going to choke when you tell them they<BR>
>should buy ten thousand books and hand you $200K because folks on ebay are<BR>
>in a feeding frenzy.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2284<BR>
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Traveller-digest       Monday, April 10 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2285<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: p3 software<BR>
Re: Far Frontiers Sector Data?<BR>
Re: Far Frontiers Sector Data?<BR>
Re: Planet 3 software<BR>
Re: Canon (was Re: Peter's view of Traveller)<BR>
Re: Peter's view of Traveller<BR>
Re: Basic Economics (was Re: Astronomy in the 57th Century)<BR>
Peter Newman's view of Traveller<BR>
Re: Far Frontiers Sector Data?<BR>
Re: TL disparities in the OTU<BR>
Channeling of Dave again (this time it's penguin related)<BR>
Re: Smart weapons<BR>
Re: TL/Pixie<BR>
Re: Smart weapons<BR>
Re: Astronomy in the 57th Century<BR>
FWD: Re: Traveller News Service<BR>
Re: PIII Software<BR>
Re: Scale in Space<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 06:25:16 -0500<BR>
From: "D. Smart" <dsmart@imagin.net><BR>
Subject: Re: p3 software<BR>
<BR>
Kagehira@aol.com wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> In a message dated 4/9/00 5:34:10 PM Pacific Daylight Time,<BR>
> owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com writes:<BR>
> <BR>
> > dsmart@imagin.net<BR>
> <BR>
> They are going on the HIWG website located off Downport.<BR>
> <BR>
> Bryan<BR>
<BR>
Yeah, looks like I jumped the gun (again). However,<BR>
those of you who have contacted me offlist will be<BR>
receiving the files. It'll take me about 90 minutes<BR>
to upload all of them this evening but it'll be done.<BR>
<BR>
David<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 08:10:12 EDT<BR>
From: Qstor@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Far Frontiers Sector Data?<BR>
<BR>
I was looking for the whole sector....I'd love to see it on the Web or in <BR>
print....If it was in print Id certainly buy it....<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Thanks<BR>
Mike <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 08:12:24 EDT<BR>
From: Qstor@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Far Frontiers Sector Data?<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 4/10/00 2:07:11 AM Eastern Daylight Time, <BR>
timmon@primenet.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<< Ares Special<BR>
 Edition #2 by Dale Kemper,  >><BR>
<BR>
 Was that the Ares game magazine later published as part of Dragon Magazine?<BR>
<BR>
Mike<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 08:28:05 -0400<BR>
From: "Sword-Worlder" <swordworlder@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Planet 3 software<BR>
<BR>
My little backwoods dial-up connection is uploading it as fast as it can.<BR>
37% complete as I write.  But now I have to go to school, so I can't be here<BR>
for the big announcement (sigh).  So I'll ask Bryan to check the HIWG<BR>
location he specified for it and, if the upload didn't die from lost<BR>
connection, perhaps he will have a chance to email the list before I return<BR>
home late this evening.  Oop, 45%! (chug, chug, chug)<BR>
<BR>
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^<BR>
Colin Michael, WebDev<BR>
www.downport.com<BR>
The Traveller Domain<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: <Kagehira@aol.com><BR>
><BR>
> Yes (I believe you do too, it's on the CD). They should hopefully be in<BR>
the<BR>
> process of being posted to the HIWG website.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 04:53:13 -0800<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Canon (was Re: Peter's view of Traveller)<BR>
<BR>
Matt Bond <MBOND@karpad.demon.co.uk> wrote<BR>
<BR>
No longer about my apparently unusual ideas about canon,<BR>
but about relative canonicity of various sources.<BR>
<BR>
> What *do* you consider canon? You seem to feel that only MT is<BR>
> acceptable as a source, so I do hope you have the complete errata <g><BR>
<BR>
In order and referring to the English language versions<BR>
of these items.<BR>
<BR>
Any official corrections to lower items by Marc Miller.<BR>
Any MT items published by GDW [1] not contradicted by<BR>
higher (on the list) sources [2]<BR>
Any MT items published by DGP not contradicted by<BR>
higher sources.<BR>
Any CT background canon by GDW [1] not contradicted by<BR>
higher sources.<BR>
Any CT rules canon by GDW [1] in a CT supplement not <BR>
contradicted by higher sources.<BR>
Any CT items by DGP [1] not contradicted by higher sources.<BR>
/Items below this point have some canon questions./<BR>
Any TNE canon not contradicted by higher sources. [3]<BR>
Any Traveller articles or products [4] written<BR>
by Marc Miller anywhere (unless he specifically<BR>
labeled them as variants) that do not fit in a higher<BR>
category not contradicted by higher sources (example: Marc's <BR>
articles in Dragon and Space Gamer)<BR>
Any licensed CT supplement by a Keith brother.<BR>
Any background canon from Traveller related games<BR>
(Striker, AHL, Imperium, etc) not contradicted by<BR>
higher sources.<BR>
Any BITS canon not contradicted by higher sources.<BR>
Any IG T4 canon not contradicted by higher sources<BR>
(a shorter list than I might hope for).<BR>
Any Gurps Traveller canon [3] not contradicted by higher<BR>
sources.<BR>
CT supplements by FASA not contradicted by higher<BR>
sources.<BR>
Licensed CT supplements not contradicted by higher<BR>
sources by most other publishers.<BR>
/Items below this point are of highly questionable canonicity./<BR>
Licensed CT supplements by JG not contradicted by higher <BR>
sources.<BR>
Magazine (printed) articles by anyone anywhere not contradicted <BR>
by higher sources.<BR>
/Items below this point are not canonical except in<BR>
IMTU and the TU's of those who choose to accept them/<BR>
Traveller computer game canon.<BR>
Traveller novel canon.<BR>
Anything I wrote myself and still agree with.<BR>
Anything anyone else wrote that I agree with<BR>
Typical Traveller web page material<BR>
Typical TML material.<BR>
<BR>
[1] items in magazines (JTAS, TD & MTJ etc) are of a slightly <BR>
lower degree of canonicity except when noted as official and <BR>
except for TNS.<BR>
[2] subject to errata<BR>
[3] unless noted as an alternative, such as FF&S's<BR>
alternative technologies or the Gurps Traveller alternative<BR>
timeline<BR>
[4] except board games<BR>
<BR>
If canon is contradictory I take that which comes from<BR>
MT and/or makes more sense to me. I keep background<BR>
canon before rules canon. However rules canon when<BR>
read literally provides more background canon to me then<BR>
it apparently does to most Traveller fans.<BR>
<BR>
Canon can be sacrificed for reasons of hard science (astronomy <BR>
indicates no M9 stars exist so they are gone from my canon <BR>
despite being in MT). Canon should not be sacrificed<BR>
for reasons on implausibility only for reasons of impossibility.<BR>
Canon should not be sacrificed for social science reasons.<BR>
YMMV<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 05:06:11 -0800<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Peter's view of Traveller<BR>
<BR>
Matt Bond <MBOND@karpad.demon.co.uk> wrote<BR>
<BR>
> If you deign to consider CT as canon (as I am at work and only have the<BR>
> CT Reprints to hand) I would like to quote the following canon<BR>
> statements:<BR>
<BR>
CT background information is canon. CT rules canon is<BR>
not canonical if contradicted by MT rules canon. MT<BR>
superseded CT for a reason. CT rules canon that was<BR>
altered or omitted in MT may have been deliberately<BR>
omitted due to it being in error, therefore it should<BR>
be looked upon with suspicion.<BR>
<BR>
> "Standard Designs: There are a number of standard design plans<BR>
> available; they have been in use for a long time and are available for a<BR>
> nominal fee (Cr 100 for the set).Shuttle, and 10-ton Fighter. Other <BR>
> standard plans may be available at various localities."<BR>
> CT Bk2 Starships, p12<BR>
> Note the last sentence, it explicitly states that there are 'standard'<BR>
> designs *beyond* those explicitly listed.<BR>
<BR>
It says _may_ be available not _are_ available. It also<BR>
says in various localities (not Imperium wide). therefore<BR>
these designs do not meet the 2nd MT definition of<BR>
standard (commonly available Imperium wide). That sentence <BR>
uses standard in the sense of (gets a class<BR>
discount). <BR>
<BR>
> "When you have become familiar with the basic rules, you can begin<BR>
> modifying them if desired..."<BR>
> "Referees should feel free to modify any rule to whatever extent they<BR>
> see fit..."<BR>
> "...indeed in most cases, some deviation from the<BR>
> Games Designers' Workshop has<BR>
> created a universe which can be used as is or slightly modified."<BR>
> "The referee is must settle disputes about the rules (and may use his<BR>
> own imagination while doing so, rather than strictly adhering to the<BR>
> letter of the rules."<BR>
> When a starship enters a system, there is a chance it will encounter any<BR>
> one of a number of different ships going about their business. Very<BR>
> often, the exact encounter is the responsibility of the referee; for<BR>
> routine encounters, or for inspiration, the accompanying starship<BR>
> encounter table is provided."<BR>
<BR>
> As you can see, canon allows for standard ships other than those<BR>
> explicitly listed, allows referees to modify rules, allows for encounter<BR>
> tables to be guides to routine encounters rather than the only ships<BR>
> that can be encountered etc etc<BR>
<BR>
All these pieces of CT text were excluded from MT while some<BR>
other portions of the CT rules were ported over word for<BR>
word into MT (and later into TNE & T4). IMO these pieces were<BR>
excluded on purpose because they no longer fit the look and<BR>
feel of Traveller + the Third Imperium (as opposed to Traveller<BR>
as set of generic SF RPG rules). In a generic setting the<BR>
referee does and should have these freedoms but in the official<BR>
Third Imperium setting he should not.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 05:35:20 -0800<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Basic Economics (was Re: Astronomy in the 57th Century)<BR>
<BR>
shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) wrote<BR>
<BR>
> > "The designs listed here are standard: that is, each ship type <BR>
> > is mass-produced in shipyards throughout the Imperium, which<BR>
> > provides economies of scale and saves the fees of a ship architect."<BR>
> > [MT ImpEnc p 76]<BR>
> > The canonical text does not say that these designs and others<BR>
> > we have not mentioned are standard it says "these designs"<BR>
> > are standard. Therefore no other designs are standard unless<BR>
> > another subsequent canonical product says that they are standard.<BR>
<BR>
> Ok, that's it. End of conversation. You are not *rational* on the<BR>
> subject of the rules. <BR>
> You are "everything which is not mandatory is forbidden". <BR>
<BR>
If you read a sentence which said "Standard US cars are manufactured<BR>
by GM, Ford and Chrysler." wouldn't you interpret this statement<BR>
as explicitly excluding other manufacturer's cars from being <BR>
standard?<BR>
<BR>
While that statement may be in error it is not ambiguous. That is<BR>
how I read the statement about standard designs. I do not think<BR>
that this is an unreasonable way of reading the rules.<BR>
<BR>
> I expect that nothing short of a direct statement from Marc Miller<BR>
> would sway you, and even then you'd interpret it to death rather than<BR>
> take it as meant.<BR>
<BR>
I do not have any way of knowing what people mean other than what<BR>
they write. Therefore I would have no way, other than literally,<BR>
to 'interpret' it. <BR>
<BR>
> > No it does not. If the authors had envisioned such handling<BR>
> > fee's varying based on cargo characteristics they would have <BR>
> > mentioned it.<BR>
<BR>
> And *that* is the exact problem. Authors *don't* write rules and<BR>
> supplements that way. Several on the list have already stated this.<BR>
<BR>
None of the people saying this wrote the MT rules. Therefore<BR>
they have not established that the MT rules were not written<BR>
in this manner. If Marc Miller or one of the other persons<BR>
listed in the MT designers (Frank Chadwick, Joe Fugate, Gary <BR>
Thomas) credits were to say that they did not write MT this<BR>
way I would be willing to accept said claim as factual.<BR>
 <BR>
> Again, you are *assuming* that failure to *explicitly mention*<BR>
> something means it is impossible. Which means you don't even *begin* to<BR>
> understand the most *basic* principles of role playing games. Namely,<BR>
> that the rules are a *framework*, and *subordinate* to the needs of the<BR>
> game.<BR>
<BR>
This indeed how most role playing games are written, however it<BR>
is not how the letter of the MT rules were written. I do not <BR>
have the ability to know what people meant but only to read what <BR>
they wrote.<BR>
<BR>
> Others have tried to point out the same thing to you. <BR>
> So this is my last message to you since with your attitude, it's not<BR>
> *possible* for you to provide any *useful* input about the game since<BR>
> you don't understand the most fundamental principles of it. <BR>
<BR>
I'm sorry to hear that, despite your haughty attitudes, you<BR>
post interesting and often useful messages. Until our most<BR>
recent discussion I too thought that we were speaking the same<BR>
language. It is now apparent to me that it's not *possible* for <BR>
you to provide any *useful* insight into the MT rules because <BR>
you do not understand the most fundamental principles of reading <BR>
them. Unlike most forms of writing MT game rules should be <BR>
read as they are written. <BR>
<BR>
While most sets of game rules explicitly state that they are <BR>
written as a framework the MT rules, as written, do not.<BR>
Therefore the MT rules are a straitjacket not a framework.<BR>
I never said that this was a good games philosophy or that<BR>
I agreed with it, I have only said that this is what the MT<BR>
rules state.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 09:38:06 -0400<BR>
From: "Smith, Walter" <SmithW@hartwick.edu><BR>
Subject: Peter Newman's view of Traveller<BR>
<BR>
Peter, I agree that the tone of my earlier post was insulting.  I<BR>
apologize, it was out of line. My comments were spurred on by an<BR>
emotional reaction to what I saw as an argumentatively packaged,<BR>
overly narrow reading of parts of the Traveller rules.  In the process,<BR>
I moved into personal comments that were uncalled for.<BR>
<BR>
We have very different, quite incompatible philosophies about the<BR>
intent and best use of the Traveller rule sets.  Due to essays, notes<BR>
and messages published by the authors, I believe that my philosophy is<BR>
closer to what the authors intended.<BR>
<BR>
This is not a personal dig against Peter, it is simply part of the fact <BR>
that I hold the philosophy I believe to be superior.  If I felt Peter's <BR>
philosophy were superior, I would hold it instead. <BR>
<BR>
Can we talk about near-C rocks now?<BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 13:58:12 +0100<BR>
From: "Derrick Jones" <dojones.whitestar@btinternet.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Far Frontiers Sector Data?<BR>
<BR>
I wrote...<BR>
<BR>
>Does it step on the toes of the stiff in TTC?<BR>
<BR>
whoops, that should obviously read stUff....<BR>
<BR>
Cue thoughts of bone cracking, sinews popping and other<BR>
rigor busting effects<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Derrick<BR>
<BR>
Derrick Jones<BR>
St Helens<BR>
Lancashire UK<BR>
http://www.btinternet.com/~dojones.whitestar<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 09:56:44 -0400<BR>
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca><BR>
Subject: Re: TL disparities in the OTU<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erickson<BR>
>>>Sure.  But it's difficult to maintain full TL without a fully developed<BR>
>>>industrial base, so the colony will probably be one or two behind to begin<BR>
>>>with.  Many colony worlds also were founded during the First Imperium,<BR>
>>>meaning they were cut off from trade (including spare parts and other<BR>
things<BR>
>>>the local colony was not equipped to make) for over a thousand years.<BR>
>>       This would cover the worlds that were colonized early, had low<BR>
>>       Pop, were cut off, and could not recover (a thousand years is a lot<BR>
>>       of time to increase Pop and advance TL, especially if you start with<BR>
>>       lots of knowledge).<BR>
>Don't forget that if civilzation fell *now*, we'd loose a *lot* of<BR>
>knowledge, simply because the paper most books are printed on won't<BR>
>*last* even a *hundred* years.<BR>
<BR>
	Even assuming that the paper used on these planets is as bad as the<BR>
	stuff that we had been using recently, this would still not prevent<BR>
	advancement.  I'm not even sure that it would result in the loss of<BR>
	whole TLs of knowledge.  Not only can information be transfered to<BR>
	new paper or other media (they have at least a couple of generations<BR>
	to do this), but I imagine that it would help to know that your<BR>
	ancestors were able to build starships using knowledge garnered with<BR>
	the scientific method.<BR>
<BR>
>It'll get even *worse* if the stuff is on electronic media.<BR>
<BR>
	Depending on the reliability of TL 9+ electronic media, if the world<BR>
	is unable to do any maintenance on their equipment, a lot might be<BR>
	lost if they are unable to transfer it to a more durable medium.  At<BR>
	worse, this might make the colony only a lot better off than a similar<BR>
	low-tech society starting from scratch.<BR>
<BR>
Peez<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 12:13:26 +1000<BR>
From: "Karen and Michael Hughes" <kmhughes@dynamite.com.au><BR>
Subject: Channeling of Dave again (this time it's penguin related)<BR>
<BR>
<Michael shakes in his chair then abruptly stops. He slowly turns his head<BR>
to face our gentle viewers - good god - POSSESSION!)<BR>
<BR>
From Dave Hyphen -<BR>
<BR>
Found this last night! Could you forward it to the TML? Add any disclaimers<BR>
you feel you need to... ;-)<BR>
<BR>
- -----------------------------<BR>
Dear Folks -<BR>
Here's a few URL's for Doug:<BR>
http://www.thinkgeek.com/stuff/dotcom/pengu.html<BR>
<http://www.thinkgeek.com/stuff/dotcom/pengu.html><BR>
Here's another link:<BR>
http://www.thinkgeek.com/brain/bazaar/mart/cart.cgi?action=view&type=item&it<BR>
emid=288e<BR>
<http://www.thinkgeek.com/brain/bazaar/mart/cart.cgi?action=view&type=item&i<BR>
temid=288e><BR>
<BR>
And an actual quote from that last page:<BR>
"These are actual Adelie penguins. They make excellent projectiles and feel<BR>
quite at home sitting on your monitor."<BR>
;-)<BR>
- -----------------------------<BR>
<BR>
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)<BR>
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw <http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw><BR>
davidjw@pcug.org.au <mailto:davidjw@pcug.org.au><BR>
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"<BR>
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2000 20:25:38 +0100<BR>
From: Martin Hardgrave <martin@deira.demon.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: Smart weapons<BR>
<BR>
In message <00409.092752.4s1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>, Leonard<BR>
Erickson <shadow@krypton.rain.com> writes<BR>
>The government would *love* a gun that could be jammed that way. In<BR>
>case of insurrection, turn on the jammer, and send out your troops with<BR>
>guns that don't have that kind of interlock (or that have different<BR>
>kind). <BR>
<BR>
Which government would that be?<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Martin Hardgrave<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 11:09:42 -0400<BR>
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca><BR>
Subject: Re: TL/Pixie<BR>
<BR>
Hans Rancke-Madsen writes:<BR>
>Ian Ferguson writes:<BR>
>>I (personal opinion) do not believe that Traveller reflects a possible<BR>
>>future. The rules are a lot of fun, but I certainly do not think that<BR>
>>the rules or the OTU can be reconciled with reality.<BR>
>Nor do I require them to. But I do want them to be internally consistent.<BR>
<BR>
	As do I.  Of course, we may differ as to what constitutes "internally<BR>
	consistent," but that is cool  :)<BR>
<BR>
>>Given that the universe has been created with dice rolls, I use the<BR>
>>following explanation: The Imperial Navy built a base on Pixie for<BR>
>>their own purposes, and the local miners started to cater to naval<BR>
>>personel. <BR>
>What local miners? The 90 residents?<BR>
<BR>
	Natch (possibly less, depending on how many where there earlier).<BR>
<BR>
>>The civilian starport was effectively upgraded by the presence of the base,<BR>
>>particularly when some unused naval facilities were sold to the locals for<BR>
>>a song.<BR>
>Pixie doesn't have enough men to run a starport, let alone a shipyard, even<BR>
>if they had gotten the facilities for free. <BR>
<BR>
	I'm not sure that I necessarily agree.  How many sophonts are required<BR>
	to run a starport?<BR>
<BR>
>>The x-boat link to the Dentus cluster was put through Pixie because of the<BR>
>>naval base, <BR>
>Since the Navy use their own couriers there's no reason why a Naval Base<BR>
>would generate any need for an X-boat connection.<BR>
<BR>
	IMTU, the navy uses the x-boat system for most routine communications,<BR>
	reserving special couriers for top secret/emergency messages.  YMMV.<BR>
	Why do you suppose that the x-boat link goes through Pixie?<BR>
<BR>
>>...so a "rudimentary" scout base was established at the starport.  By now,<BR>
>>hardly anyone on Pixie worked away from the starport, but the x-boat<BR>
>>traffic (plus all traffic between Yres and the Dentus cluster, plus<BR>
>>some between Menorb and the Dentus cluster, plus some between the<BR>
>>spinward side of the Regina subsector and the Vargr Extents, plus<BR>
>>couriers cycling around Boughene-Menorb-Yres-Pixie) has pushed local<BR>
>>resources to the limit.<BR>
>WHAT traffic?!? Just saying that there is all this traffic doesn't make it<BR>
>so.<BR>
<BR>
	Actually, it does (IMTU).  :)<BR>
<BR>
>There has to be a reason why the traffic is there in the first place,<BR>
>and there isn't. Furthermore, if the traffic WAS there and generated all<BR>
>that business, why isn't there more people catering to it? <BR>
<BR>
	I posted some potential trade routes through Pixie already, but I<BR>
	cannot remember the names: is it Yorbund to core-spinward?  I think<BR>
	that all trade between Yorbund (?) and the Dentus cluster would<BR>
	tend to go through Pixie, and trade from Moughas (?) to the Dentus<BR>
	cluster can just as easily go through Pixie as Boughene (?).  There<BR>
	might also be some traffic to the Vargr extents, could some of it be<BR>
	going through Pixie?  Anyways, I don't need a lot of traffic, in fact<BR>
	I don't want too much, just enough to keep 90 colonists busy.<BR>
<BR>
>>>There's not much to attract colonists, so a sizable investment in robots<BR>
>>>has been made (I'm not talking about hundreds here, more like tens).<BR>
>>Investment by whom? And how do they expect to get their money back?<BR>
<BR>
	Whoever runs the starport.  They get their money back the same way<BR>
	that anyone does who runs a starport.<BR>
<BR>
>>There is still not much traffic compared to many other places, but there<BR>
>>is enough to keep the small starport occupied.<BR>
>Even accepting that (and you still haven't explained why all this traffic<BR>
>chose to go through Pixie), you come back to the problem of running the<BR>
>damn shipyard with maybe 25 effective workers. And why a shipyard? If all<BR>
>this traffic really was coming through Pixie (which I still consider a<BR>
>big if), then maintenance facilities would make sense. But any ships built<BR>
>on Pixie would be more expensive than a comparable ship built in a place<BR>
>with enough people to produce the component locally, so why build them on<BR>
>Pixie?<BR>
<BR>
	See below.<BR>
<BR>
>>>>...How many people have to work on a 600-ton ship at one time? 10? 20? 40?<BR>
>>>Well, that depends on just what you're talking about. The people who punch<BR>
>>>the clock at the General Shipyards Pixie Yard? Or those people plus their<BR>
>>>families? Or those plus the people who make the rest of the local society?<BR>
>>The people who punch the clock at the shipyards only.  Their family<BR>
>>also work there, and there is almost no "rest of the local society."<BR>
>Well, the children don't work there, they go to school or nursery. The old<BR>
>people don't work there, they are retired. The day-care people don't work<BR>
>there, the doctor and the nurse and the teacher don't work there. The<BR>
>plumber... well, I suppose the plumber do work there...<BR>
>And if you tell me that there are no children and no old people, then it<BR>
>isn't a society and the workers are not residents. I guess you might be<BR>
>able to run a starship assembly plant with 90 workers, but why ship in<BR>
>the components and assemble them on Pixie instead of assembling them in<BR>
>the system where the components are built?<BR>
 <BR>
	I can think of a couple of approaches here.  One is that children are<BR>
	not included in the Pop figure.  Another is that few or no families<BR>
	have moved in yet.  As for the building, see below.<BR>
<BR>
>>>All of which makes ships from Pixie more expensive than ships from other,<BR>
>>>more well-rounded worlds. So why build on Pixie at all, and who takes the<BR>
>>>loss and why is he willing to do so? Until you've answered that, you<BR>
haven't<BR>
>>>really explained Pixie at all.<BR>
>>Sure I have.  People don't built on Pixie.<BR>
>Canon says differently.<BR>
<BR>
	I have no problem with that.<BR>
<BR>
Peez<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 17:47:03 +0200<BR>
From: Jens Rydholm <jenry023@student.liu.se><BR>
Subject: Re: Smart weapons<BR>
<BR>
Martin Hardgrave replied to Leonard Erickson:<BR>
> >The government would *love* a gun that could be jammed that way. In<BR>
> >case of insurrection, turn on the jammer, and send out your troops with<BR>
> >guns that don't have that kind of interlock (or that have different<BR>
> >kind). <BR>
> <BR>
> Which government would that be?<BR>
<BR>
Why, the evil facist communist junta. It's obvious!<BR>
<BR>
I've heard that the people of dictarship states are all brainwashed dupes, and<BR>
that they would gladly fire at defenseless fellow citizens...<BR>
<BR>
(in case anyone doesn't notice, I am being heavily cynical)<BR>
<BR>
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<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 09:06:25<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Astronomy in the 57th Century<BR>
<BR>
At 01:08 AM 4/10/2000 -0800, you wrote:<BR>
>"Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com> wrote<BR>
<BR>
>> Remember how Han Solo got involved with the Star Wars crew?  That's story<BR>
>> advancement.<BR>
><BR>
>It sure is but Traveller has a referee, not a storyteller.<BR>
>They are different roles. In some ways a storyteller is<BR>
>better but in some ways a referee is better.<BR>
<BR>
You have to be *both* to be successful.  A big part of the job is creating<BR>
the universe that the characters move through.  To do that, sometimes you<BR>
need to be adversarial, sometimes, act as an ally.  The important thing is<BR>
to balance these roles.<BR>
<BR>
Take for example the bookshop in _Twilight's Peak_...  the entire adventure<BR>
hinges on the players entering the book store and buying the Octagon<BR>
history.  To get that to happen the Referee has to engage in some creative<BR>
storytelling and player work.  The first time I ran that adventure, I<BR>
called one of my players hours before the game and we invented an "uncle"<BR>
whose birthday was approaching, and who loved old books.<BR>
<BR>
>> Well, since I wrote Strike! for JTAS #26, am I the final authority on<BR>
>>labor relations inside the Third Imperium?<BR>
><BR>
>That's Marc job but until and unless he does so you will <BR>
>do.<BR>
<BR>
That was sarcasm.  Strike! is no more an essay on labor relations than<BR>
First In is an advanced course in astronomy.  Any Referee could do six<BR>
hours of research in a good library and come up with months of plot lines<BR>
concerning labor relations.  Read up on the Coal Wars in Pennsylvania<BR>
during the early part of the 20th Century.  Transfer it to an asteroid<BR>
belt, or hostile world.  Bring in some agitators from the Interstellar<BR>
Workers' Union.<BR>
<BR>
None of that is supported in canon.  But it would be *fun*.<BR>
<BR>
>> My God, the number of things not covered in Traveller canon.. when I began<BR>
>> writing Ground Forces, I discovered that almost nothing in canon existed<BR>
>> about them.  A few unit IDs, some organizational charts, but nothing about<BR>
>> the larger form of the Army and Marines.<BR>
><BR>
>I agree that background canon is lacking in many areas; what I am<BR>
>saying is that MT rules canon restricts the referee to a narrower<BR>
>role than that of a GM in some other game systems.<BR>
<BR>
But you've yet to give me a compelling reason *why* you feel that just<BR>
because something is not mentioned, that it is somehow forbidden.<BR>
<BR>
AFAICR, MegaTraveller has no canonical mechanism for generating rebels or<BR>
terrorist groups.  Therefore, they don't exist?  Except on the worlds that<BR>
already have them?  Players read books too!<BR>
<BR>
>Use the 1d6 days to find a cargo rule and have the preplanned<BR>
>encounter occur before the task of finding the cargo is<BR>
>complete.<BR>
<BR>
Scenario A:<BR>
<BR>
"Gee, you want us to go save your homestead from a rampaging mob in the<BR>
middle of a nasty range war?  Well, we'd love too, but we might be getting<BR>
a cargo tomorrow.  Best of luck!"<BR>
<BR>
Scenario B:<BR>
<BR>
"Guys, we're broke, the outgoing warehouses are empty, and starting<BR>
tomorrow the berthing fees go into overdrive.  The broker says he has a<BR>
cargo for us, but it will take a week to get loaded.  In the mean time, Mr.<BR>
Smith has offered us a short job dirtside to cover our expenses.."<BR>
<BR>
Which one sounds more fun?<BR>
><BR>
>> Or am I to stop the game every time they roll a patron encounter, and go<BR>
>> off to sketch together an adventure?<BR>
><BR>
>As a referee you need to be capable of coming up with a<BR>
>patron on the spur of the moment (possibly by stealing from<BR>
>reality or fiction) or using a published resource. As an<BR>
>example the patron could be an exact rip off of a former<BR>
>employer of yours.<BR>
<BR>
I'm good, but not that good.  My players deserve better than a constant<BR>
stream of improvisational encounters.  I pride myself on the quality of my<BR>
planned scenarios, and if I have to use a little arms-twisting to get them<BR>
into it, so be it.<BR>
<BR>
There is a fine line between creative Refereeing and railroading.  That is<BR>
what separates good GMs from great ones.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
<BR>
Duugirashir Irebamenagiin  gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
  http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/sylea.html<BR>
Inquisitor Maximus, Reformed Canon Church of Sylea<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 08:16:24 -0700<BR>
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)<BR>
Subject: FWD: Re: Traveller News Service<BR>
<BR>
...<BR>
>The Imperial palace today announced that Prince Lucan has asked to attend the <BR>
>Imperial Naval Academy under a pseudonym,/...<BR>
<BR>
  Skywalker, Anakin?<BR>
<BR>
  <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 12:21:10 EDT<BR>
From: Kagehira@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: PIII Software<BR>
<BR>
    Planet III Software is now located at:<BR>
<BR>
http://www.downport.com/hiwg/software/ibm/p3/<BR>
<BR>
    It's currently a 5.5meg download. It'll be broken up later on and the <BR>
extra calculator software will get added.<BR>
<BR>
Bryan<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 09:14:11 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Scale in Space<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> At 07:22 PM 4/9/00 -0400, you wrote<BR>
>>------------------------------<BR>
>><BR>
>>Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2000 15:08:51 PST<BR>
>>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
>>Subject: Re: Scale in Space<BR>
>><BR>
>>*One* of the reasons is because *current* sensors can track a ship the<BR>
>>size of a Traveller starship at multiple light second ranges. That's<BR>
>>around a *million* km. Which is a mere 4 hours at 1 g. 1.6 hours at 6 g.<BR>
>><BR>
> Thanks, Leonard.  That's what I needed to know. Just to clarify, if I<BR>
> understand you correctly, once a ship is detected, it is very easy to<BR>
> track.  How about initial detection for a ship in orbit "running silent"<BR>
> using passive and active sensors?<BR>
<BR>
Check Bruce's "Definitive Sensor Rules". Off the top of my head, unless<BR>
you are using *extraordinary* stealth measures, you stand out like a<BR>
neon sign.<BR>
<BR>
You see, in space, the parts of the sky not occupied by planet's and<BR>
stars are at a "temperature" of 3 K (3 Kelvins above absolute zero).<BR>
Ignoring the emmisions from engineering, the *life system* (ie people<BR>
occupied) parts of the ship are at a temp of 300 K. Add in the<BR>
temperature of the required radiators for the power plant and you are<BR>
even *brighter* in the IR. <BR>
<BR>
And since people produce heat merely by being *alive*, you *have* to be<BR>
radiating the heat they produce, at least as fast as they produce it.<BR>
Ditto for the "waste heat" produced by the rest of the ship's systems.<BR>
If you *don't* radiate as much energy as is produced, then the internal<BR>
temperature of the ship goes up. And there's a very narrow range that<BR>
people can stay alive in. <BR>
<BR>
Our current IR satellites are detecting asteroids at several AU. And<BR>
they are noticably weaker sources than a ship that's near a planet.<BR>
<BR>
The only possible "dodges" are using smaller but higher temperature<BR>
radiators. It takes extra power, and thus requires you to get rid of<BR>
*more* waste heat to get rid of heat at a temp above the one you are<BR>
trying to keep something at. That's why the "coils" on a refrigerator<BR>
are so warm *and* why they take so much power.<BR>
<BR>
These will be even *more* detectable, but you can try to aim them in a<BR>
direction where you hope there aren't any sensors aimed at you. If you<BR>
are wrong about that, you'll find out the hard way.<BR>
<BR>
>>Also, given that the ships *can* boost for hours at a time, their<BR>
>>velocities become unreasonable at lower timespans and smaller<BR>
>>timescales. <BR>
>><BR>
>>Due to the way Newtonian physics work, the time scale and the hex size<BR>
>>are tied together. If you pick a hex size, then you have to pick a<BR>
>>timescale such that 1G equals 1, or only a few hexes moved. Otherwise,<BR>
>>you have ships moving clear across the playing area in one "turn". <BR>
>><BR>
> This leads into my next question.  Where do space battles occur?  Near<BR>
> planets?  Far from planets?  I assume not in interstellar space, even<BR>
> though the "Battle of Two Suns" was fought in deep space IIRC, from<BR>
> Adventure One.<BR>
<BR>
Given jump drive, most battles are going to be at or inside the 100<BR>
diameter limit. For one thing, outside the limit, you *can't* force a<BR>
fight. Inside it, the ship being attacked gets to choose between<BR>
fighting and a possible misjump. Of course, if it doesn't have the<BR>
fuel for a jump...<BR>
<BR>
> Would the defending units see intruders in time to intercept them far from<BR>
> a planet, or will intruding ships be able to make a high-speed pass at such<BR>
> velocities that only one round of combat will occur?<BR>
<BR>
Given the 6g "limit" on Traveller drives, high speed passes aren't<BR>
really terribly likely. <BR>
<BR>
You see, a higher velocity *doesn't* make you harder to hit until the<BR>
speed gets ridiculously high. It turns out that relativity (the<BR>
Newtonian kind) says that it's just as valid to consider the ship to be<BR>
standing still and everything *else* to be moving relative to it. Which<BR>
means that when you shift to that "frame of reference", you find that<BR>
the future position of the ship is restriction to a sphere centered on<BR>
the current position, and with a radius equal to the distance it could<BR>
travel at max acceleration from a standing start. <BR>
<BR>
This, plus speed of light lag in sensors means that you *can't*<BR>
successfully attack a ship at more than a few light seconds (because it<BR>
only takes a few seconds at 6g to move more than the length of the<BR>
ship, and thus throw off your aim). <BR>
<BR>
And likewise, *inside* the light second range, it's virtually<BR>
impossible to *miss*. <BR>
<BR>
This applies only to "speed of light" weapons, of course. But it makes<BR>
space combat different from any sort of combat ever seen on earth. <BR>
<BR>
It also makes impact missiles essentially worthless. Thus the idea of<BR>
the missile warheads being "bomb-pumped" x-ray lasers. The missiles<BR>
dash in so they can aim better than the ship that fired them, but try<BR>
to stay outside the "certain kill" range for the anti-missile lasers of<BR>
the target.<BR>
<BR>
> I think there may be three types of space battles, Pass-thru battles where<BR>
> two forces are closing at very high velocities, pursuit battles, one force<BR>
> chasing another, and battles where one force is decelerating into orbit and<BR>
> the defenders are at or close to orbital velocity.<BR>
<BR>
Pass thru is an unlikely situation. Because you only get a few shots<BR>
and then it's *hours* before you can get any more. It's only "likely"<BR>
if a situation arises where ships are on their way to different in<BR>
system destinations from different starting points, and the planetary<BR>
alignments are such that they pass near enough to exchange shots. <BR>
<BR>
Due to the way planets move, a fleet going from planet A to planet B,<BR>
and one going from B to A won't go anywhere *near* each other in most<BR>
cases (because each will be aiming for where the destination *will be*<BR>
when they get there, which is a long ways from where it *was* when the<BR>
other fleet left). <BR>
<BR>
Chases can only last until the folks being chased can jump. It's also<BR>
*real* unhealthy for the folks doing the chasing as the fact that they<BR>
are chasing limits the amount and direction of dodging they can do (of<BR>
course, the rules don't reflect this). <BR>
<BR>
Multiple ships chasing single ship are definitely possible. <BR>
<BR>
Defending against invaders is the most likely "fleet to fleet" type<BR>
battle. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2285<BR>
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Traveller-digest       Monday, April 10 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2286<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Adventure, I got an Adventure, Yee Ha etc<BR>
Re: Basic Economics (was Re: Astronomy in the 57th Century)<BR>
Re: Channeling of Dave again (this time it's penguin related)<BR>
Re: Peter's view of Traveller<BR>
re: Far Frontiers Sector Data?<BR>
Re: Secrets of ACQ<BR>
Peter's Traveller Universe<BR>
MT rules straitjacket<BR>
Re: MT rules straitjacket<BR>
JSS of Terra and surroundings<BR>
I don't like Mondays (was re: Supernova)<BR>
RE: Basic Economics (was Re: Astronomy in the 57th Century)<BR>
RE: Distances (OT)<BR>
RE: I don't like Mondays (was re: Supernova)<BR>
Running A Sci-Fi Campaign<BR>
Re: Gencon UK<BR>
Re: Basic Economics (was Re: Astronomy in the 57th Century)<BR>
Maps of the Imperium site gone?<BR>
re: Wars within the Imperium<BR>
Re: TL/Pixie<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 17:55:46 +0100<BR>
From: "Nick Bradbeer" <nickb@ndirect.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: Adventure, I got an Adventure, Yee Ha etc<BR>
<BR>
Subject: Re: Adventure, I got an Adventure, Yee Ha etc<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>I should like to give it a look if you would post it to me.<BR>
><BR>
>Dan<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Me too. Always on the lookout for interesting plots to strip down, respray<BR>
and sell on to my players.<BR>
<BR>
Nick<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 09:19:24<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Basic Economics (was Re: Astronomy in the 57th Century)<BR>
<BR>
At 05:35 AM 4/10/2000 -0800, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>If you read a sentence which said "Standard US cars are manufactured<BR>
>by GM, Ford and Chrysler." wouldn't you interpret this statement<BR>
>as explicitly excluding other manufacturer's cars from being <BR>
>standard?<BR>
<BR>
Sorry, but that's the wrong argument.  A better example would be the<BR>
Vehicles section in "Papers and Paychecks" that gives the Ford Escort,<BR>
Cadillac Coup De Ville, and the Chrysler LeBaron as standard models.<BR>
<BR>
In reality, there are *thousands* of American car designs and variations.<BR>
But fior the puurpose of a RPG trying to simulate the late 20th Century,<BR>
these models are good enough.<BR>
<BR>
>While most sets of game rules explicitly state that they are <BR>
>written as a framework the MT rules, as written, do not.<BR>
>Therefore the MT rules are a straitjacket not a framework.<BR>
<BR>
!  You have got to be kidding me.  I'm serious, do you really believe this?<BR>
<BR>
I have to ask... what in the name of Eris do you think will happen to you<BR>
if you declare something canon in yopur MT universe?  Lightning?  Near-C<BR>
rocks?<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas "Penguin Boy" Berry  gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
  http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
"I am the penguin bold! We sailed the sea, to tringalee,<BR>
in search of spanish gold" - The Magic Pudding - Norman Lindsay<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 09:27:14<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Channeling of Dave again (this time it's penguin related)<BR>
<BR>
At 12:13 PM 4/11/2000 +1000, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Dear Folks -<BR>
>Here's a few URL's for Doug:<BR>
>http://www.thinkgeek.com/stuff/dotcom/pengu.html<BR>
<BR>
>Here's another link:<BR>
<BR>
>http://www.thinkgeek.com/brain/bazaar/mart/cart.cgi?action=view&type=item&it<BR>
>emid=288e<BR>
<BR>
>And an actual quote from that last page:<BR>
>"These are actual Adelie penguins. They make excellent projectiles and feel<BR>
>quite at home sitting on your monitor."<BR>
<BR>
ROTFLMAO!!!!<BR>
<BR>
Thank god I wasn't eating or drinking at that point...<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 09:56:21<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Peter's view of Traveller<BR>
<BR>
At 05:06 AM 4/10/2000 -0800, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>It says _may_ be available not _are_ available. It also<BR>
>says in various localities (not Imperium wide). therefore<BR>
>these designs do not meet the 2nd MT definition of<BR>
>standard (commonly available Imperium wide). That sentence <BR>
>uses standard in the sense of (gets a class<BR>
>discount). <BR>
<BR>
I give up.  Peter, over in Usenet I deal with fanatics of every stripe on<BR>
alt.conspiracy.  You have managed to exceed their ability to be pedantic by<BR>
a country mile.  You have read an entire paragraph into a single word.<BR>
<BR>
Let me give you the word from a guy who has written rules for Traveller: No<BR>
game designer in his right mind believes that he has covered everything, or<BR>
expects everyone to follow his every word like Holy Writ.  These are games<BR>
of imagination, and require that everyone involved, including the Referee,<BR>
exercise those facilities.<BR>
<BR>
Writing ACQ I came to many places where I just had to pass the ball to the<BR>
Referee, and let them handle it to the best of their ability.  I'm<BR>
reasonably sure that Marc Miller intended to do the same with MT.<BR>
<BR>
By the way, regarding CT canon:  The MegaTraveller Box clearly states that<BR>
MT is an *expansion* to CT.<BR>
<BR>
I really think you would hate being in my campaigns.  We go for hours<BR>
without touching dice, and the rule books get a fine coating of dust.  But<BR>
damn, we have fun.  That's what it's all about.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/sylea.html<BR>
<BR>
TML Great Old One<BR>
Plague of the Traveller Riders of the Apocalypse<BR>
Chant "Gridlore" thrice to summon.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 18:16:53 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: re: Far Frontiers Sector Data?<BR>
<BR>
At 0:59 -0400 10/4/00, Qstor@aol.com wrote:<BR>
>Does anyone know of a write up of the UWP's for this sector? I didn't see on<BR>
>on the CORE Web Site...Does any else know where they can be found?<BR>
<BR>
They aren't at http://www.core.org.uk/<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
BITS / CORE Webmaster<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 18:20:17 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Secrets of ACQ<BR>
<BR>
At 0:59 -0400 10/4/00, "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com> wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>At 11:19 PM 4/9/2000 +0100, you wrote:<BR>
> >A question for those who know - you may have noticed that Derrick<BR>
> >Jones and Matt Bond have been having a surreal conversation using the<BR>
> >rules for ACQ and Penguins. But can anyone explain why Derrick<BR>
> >prefers to eat unripened Penguins over cold, hot, custard and other<BR>
> >varieties. ;-)<BR>
><BR>
>Well, I can't answer that, but you're going to love the gift I'm bringing<BR>
>Anne...<BR>
<BR>
<Anne is Andy and Sarah Lilly's Daughter, who arrived two or so days <BR>
before GenCon UK 99><BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 13:31:53 -0400<BR>
From: "Chris Dixon" <cdixon@airfoiltech.com><BR>
Subject: Peter's Traveller Universe<BR>
<BR>
Judging by the posts this is one hell of a can-o-worms!<BR>
<BR>
Peter, I will never say that you are WRONG because you happen to be the<BR>
type that never,ever deviates from the rules as printed.  You have your<BR>
TU, and I have mine. And you have every right to your opinion of how the<BR>
rules should be applied IYTU.<BR>
<BR>
My question to you would be: do you and your player group have fun when<BR>
playing the game under such a draconian interpretation of the rules?  If<BR>
you do and they like it that way well....more power to you.  If not you<BR>
might try relaxing your stance a bit, as it opens up a lot of<BR>
possibilities for creativity on the part of the players and the GM.<BR>
<BR>
I'll accept that my deviation from the "canon" of the printed word may<BR>
or may not be supported by the books, however, in my mind it's a lot<BR>
more fun to have a GM who's hands aren't tied (by choice or not) from<BR>
sticking to the rules verbatim.<BR>
<BR>
Again, just my opinion, your mileage may vary.<BR>
<BR>
Chris<BR>
(Who plays Traveller for fun)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 13:32:24 EDT<BR>
From: Kagehira@aol.com<BR>
Subject: MT rules straitjacket<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 4/10/00 10:00:18 AM Pacific Daylight Time, <BR>
owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
> > Again, you are *assuming* that failure to *explicitly mention*<BR>
>  > something means it is impossible. Which means you don't even *begin* to<BR>
>  > understand the most *basic* principles of role playing games. Namely,<BR>
>  > that the rules are a *framework*, and *subordinate* to the needs of the<BR>
>  > game.<BR>
>  <BR>
>  This indeed how most role playing games are written, however it<BR>
>  is not how the letter of the MT rules were written. I do not <BR>
>  have the ability to know what people meant but only to read what <BR>
>  they wrote.<BR>
<BR>
It's how MT was written too. In one discussion with Joe, he stated to the <BR>
effect of 'use whatever rules and modifications make you happy.'<BR>
<BR>
I've never talked to a game designer yet who considered there rules all <BR>
inclusive. In most cases at least some, if not a lot, of the rules are left <BR>
up to the individual GM. For instance the original edition of Shadowrun was <BR>
aimed at experienced players and GMs, at least part of the reason for the <BR>
second edition was that too many new players where picking up the game an <BR>
needing more guidance.<BR>
<BR>
Bryan<BR>
<BR>
P.S. btw I'd rate SJG canon above IG canon as it runs by Marc first, whereas <BR>
IG 'canon' did not.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 10:52:55<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: MT rules straitjacket<BR>
<BR>
At 01:32 PM 4/10/2000 EDT, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>P.S. btw I'd rate SJG canon above IG canon as it runs by Marc first, whereas <BR>
>IG 'canon' did not.<BR>
<BR>
As a side note, since I brought up _Strike!_ to saracstically suggest that<BR>
I am the ultuimate source for All Knowledge about labor relations in the<BR>
Traveller universe.<BR>
<BR>
I'd like to clear this up for anyone who hasn't seen the article.  Strike!<BR>
was a shoert, Amber Zone style adventure that had the characters trying to<BR>
load a time-sensitive cargo in the middle of a dockworkers strike.  It had<BR>
very little actual information about unions or guilds.<BR>
<BR>
Referees should do a little research on the subject, since unions can be a<BR>
fun source of adventures.<BR>
<BR>
Q: How many Teamsters does it take to change a light bulb?<BR>
<BR>
A: 27.  You got a problem with that?<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 19:59:18 +0200<BR>
From: Ingo Heinscher <Hiroshi.Estigarribia@gmx.de><BR>
Subject: JSS of Terra and surroundings<BR>
<BR>
Hi!<BR>
<BR>
As an illustration for my view at jump space physics, I have produced a<BR>
Chview file shows how the jump space structure might look like in Sol and<BR>
Dingir subsectors. It does this by using Chview routes for the respective<BR>
jump numbers (i.e., route-1 is for a jump-1 connection, route-2 for j-2 etc.).<BR>
<BR>
If anyone is interested in this file, please email me. I'd welcome some<BR>
comments, especially on how to improve this file (I do not have access to<BR>
any stellar data of that region, so there might still be inconsistencies...)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
"This was not meant to be an aggresssion against the Siru Zirka. But we had<BR>
to organize our affairs a bit more efficiently. To be honest, we have had<BR>
to do this for almost 300 years by now."<BR>
unknown Terran politician, -2398 Imp<BR>
;-) ingo heinscher <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 11:08:55 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: I don't like Mondays (was re: Supernova)<BR>
<BR>
>From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net><BR>
<BR>
I had written:<BR>
>>What ever happened to Brenda Spencer?<BR>
<BR>
You replied:<BR>
>I hope that's not a rhetorical question, 'cause I actually <BR>
>checked on the internet after posting that. <BR>
<BR>
No, that was a sincere inquiry.  Thanks for doing the legwork.<BR>
<BR>
>She was up for parole in early 1998, but it would appear that <BR>
>parole was turned down. She'll be up again in 2001. <BR>
>The quote is actually longer. When asked why, she responded, "I<BR>
<BR>
>don't like Mondays. This livens up the day." When asked who she<BR>
<BR>
>was trying to shoot she said, "No one in particular. I kind of <BR>
>like the red and blue jackets." There you have it. She's still <BR>
>doing time at the moment, though the thought that she might hit<BR>
<BR>
>the street one day soon is somewhat frightening.<BR>
<BR>
"Somewhat frightening" is somewhat of an understatement.  How<BR>
old is she now?  Mid-40s?<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.<BR>
http://im.yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 14:16:52 -0400<BR>
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net><BR>
Subject: RE: Basic Economics (was Re: Astronomy in the 57th Century)<BR>
<BR>
Peter Newman said:<BR>
<BR>
>If you read a sentence which said "Standard US cars are manufactured<BR>
>by GM, Ford and Chrysler." wouldn't you interpret this statement<BR>
>as explicitly excluding other manufacturer's cars from being<BR>
>standard?<BR>
<BR>
Nope. There would be no reason for one to read the above statement in the<BR>
fashion which you've indicated. If, on the other hand, you had said, "The<BR>
only standard cars...", or "Standard US cars are only manufactured by...",<BR>
then there would be reason to read it that way.<BR>
<BR>
The definition of standard, as defined in a dictionary, is irrelevant, by<BR>
the way. I noticed you tried arguing that with someone earlier. The<BR>
MegaTraveller rules clearly define what is meant by standard in the context<BR>
it is used in the text. Nowhere does it indicate that the term is meant in<BR>
an exclusive fashion, so without even going outside the text I can point out<BR>
that you've read the statement incorrectly.<BR>
<BR>
>While that statement may be in error it is not ambiguous. That is<BR>
>how I read the statement about standard designs. I do not think<BR>
>that this is an unreasonable way of reading the rules.<BR>
<BR>
You're absolutely right, it's *not* ambiguous. The meaning is crystal clear.<BR>
The only problem is that your interpretation is not reasonable. In English<BR>
it's a common practice to qualify a statement to make it exclusive, if it is<BR>
not exclusive in and of itself. For example, to say that people of Vilani<BR>
descent live on a world is not the same as saying that *only* people of<BR>
Vilani descent live on a world.<BR>
<BR>
To make this more concrete:<BR>
<BR>
To say that, "Peter Newman is a member of the TML: that is, he posts<BR>
messages on a mailing list for the discussion of Traveller," is not the same<BR>
as saying, "Peter Newman is the sole member of the TML".<BR>
<BR>
>I do not have any way of knowing what people mean other than what<BR>
>they write. Therefore I would have no way, other than literally,<BR>
>to 'interpret' it.<BR>
<BR>
The problem is that you're not interpreting literally, which would mean that<BR>
you would be applying definitions to words based on the way these words<BR>
appear in common usage, or as specifically defined. The MegaTraveller<BR>
Imperial Encyclopedia, page 76 clearly states the definition of what is<BR>
meant by "standard", and it looks nothing like what you're claiming. To say<BR>
a ship is standard, according to MegaTraveller is to say that it is produced<BR>
in shipyards throughout the Imperium, which saves on architects fees and<BR>
allows a lower price per ship due to the quantities manufactured.<BR>
<BR>
Nowhere do the authors indicate that the only standard ships are those<BR>
presented. You're not interpreting what you're reading literally.<BR>
<BR>
>> Again, you are *assuming* that failure to *explicitly mention*<BR>
>> something means it is impossible. Which means you don't even *begin* to<BR>
>> understand the most *basic* principles of role playing games. Namely,<BR>
>> that the rules are a *framework*, and *subordinate* to the needs of the<BR>
>> game.<BR>
><BR>
>This indeed how most role playing games are written, however it<BR>
>is not how the letter of the MT rules were written. I do not<BR>
>have the ability to know what people meant but only to read what<BR>
>they wrote.<BR>
<BR>
Actually, the term "rule" with respect to a game follows the general meaning<BR>
of the word, which is a prescribed *guide* for an activity. In this case,<BR>
the activity is playing a game of MegaTraveller. You are not reading what<BR>
was written, with respect to rule, but seem to be applying another<BR>
definition (which is synonymous with law), especially since you frequently<BR>
use the words "ought", and "must", terms of obligation, in relation to your<BR>
interpretation of the rules. However, that definition assumes an authority<BR>
to whom the GM and players are responsible to, or beholden to. Such a party<BR>
doesn't exist. Hence, the term "rule", as it is understood with respect to<BR>
games, must be assumed.<BR>
<BR>
If you are confused concerning MegaTraveller's status as a game, I point you<BR>
to page 6 of the MegaTraveller Players' Manual, the very first line, in bold<BR>
type: "TRAVELLER IS A ROLE-PLAYING GAME".<BR>
<BR>
>It is now apparent to me that it's not *possible* for<BR>
>you to provide any *useful* insight into the MT rules because<BR>
>you do not understand the most fundamental principles of reading<BR>
>them.<BR>
<BR>
I don't think that Leonard's the one who is having trouble reading here.<BR>
<BR>
>Unlike most forms of writing MT game rules should be<BR>
>read as they are written.<BR>
<BR>
You are incorrect. I don't need Marc, Loren or Joe Fugate, Jr. to tell me<BR>
this, because you are applying a definition of "rule" that simply cannot<BR>
reasonably be said to apply in these circumstances. You are not reading the<BR>
text literally, as you claim to.<BR>
<BR>
>While most sets of game rules explicitly state that they are<BR>
>written as a framework the MT rules, as written, do not.<BR>
<BR>
I would suspect the reason they didn't specifically state that fact was that<BR>
they thought that people who might pick up the boxed set would understand<BR>
how the term "rule" is used with respect to games.<BR>
<BR>
>Therefore the MT rules are a straitjacket not a framework.<BR>
>I never said that this was a good games philosophy or that<BR>
>I agreed with it, I have only said that this is what the MT<BR>
>rules state.<BR>
<BR>
No, the MT rules are not a straitjacket. The MegaTraveller rules do not<BR>
*state* this, nor is it stated anywhere that this was their philosophy when<BR>
designing the game. You have deduced this by way of faulty logic and<BR>
misinterpretation, so don't try to pawn this off on the designers of<BR>
MegaTraveller.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 12:19:13 -0600<BR>
From: Jason Postma <JasonP@i-link.net><BR>
Subject: RE: Distances (OT)<BR>
<BR>
The Great Salt Lake isn't much of an ocean.  Sure it's big, but it's not<BR>
very deep, nothing lives in it except brine shrimp, and it stinks pretty bad<BR>
when compared to the ocean.  If your Brit friends don't mind those<BR>
differences - sure, send 'em on over.  We could use the tourist dollars.<BR>
They can stick around to ski.<BR>
<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com [mailto:shadow@krypton.rain.com]<BR>
Sent: Saturday, April 08, 2000 2:46 PM<BR>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Distances<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> In a message dated 00-04-07 13:12:33 EDT, you write:<BR>
><BR>
> << >"The difference between an Englishman and an American is that an <BR>
> Englishman<BR>
>  >thinks a hundred miles is a long way, whereas an American thinks a<BR>
hundred<BR>
>  >years is a long time."<BR>
>  <BR>
>  We regularly get British tourists who inquire about driving to Disneyland<BR>
>  "for the day."  Disneyland is 450 miles, and two mountain ranges, from<BR>
San<BR>
>  Francisco.  >><BR>
><BR>
> At a convention I was entertaining some British tourists (our UK<BR>
importer's <BR>
> rep and a couple of his friends) and one of them mentioned how she was <BR>
> astonished to find herself over 1,000 miles from an ocean. <BR>
<BR>
Depending on where in the US you were, you should have suggested that<BR>
she could always consider the Great Lakes (or Great Salt Lake) to be<BR>
oceans. I don't think there are many places you can be 1000 miles from<BR>
the oceans *and* from those...<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 14:21:38 -0400<BR>
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net><BR>
Subject: RE: I don't like Mondays (was re: Supernova)<BR>
<BR>
Glenn Goffin:<BR>
<BR>
>>You replied:<BR>
>>I hope that's not a rhetorical question, 'cause I actually<BR>
>>checked on the internet after posting that.<BR>
><BR>
>No, that was a sincere inquiry.  Thanks for doing the legwork.<BR>
<BR>
No problem. I had done it anyway. :)<BR>
<BR>
>"Somewhat frightening" is somewhat of an understatement.  How<BR>
>old is she now?  Mid-40s?<BR>
<BR>
I guess it is an understatement. Then again, I'm on the East Coast. She was<BR>
16 or 17 in 79, that would put her at 37 or maybe 38 now.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 13:30:50 -0600 (CST)<BR>
From: "Jason Kemp" <Jason.Kemp@tdh.state.tx.us><BR>
Subject: Running A Sci-Fi Campaign<BR>
<BR>
Greetings, All,<BR>
<BR>
I'm a GM desperately looking for advice to improve his ability to run <BR>
Sci-Fi campaigns. For some reason, I think I'm missing some critical <BR>
point, because most of my SF games tend to end rather quickly, unlike <BR>
my fantasy or World of Darkness games. I can't seem to get my players <BR>
involved in them, and I am looking for suggestions to help me improve <BR>
my ability to run a Traveller game that will last more than the first <BR>
night or the first adventure. Is it really that big a difference in <BR>
gamemastering?<BR>
<BR>
Any assistance, including articles on Sci-Fi gamemastering available <BR>
online or your own personal experiences, would be greatly <BR>
appreciated. Thank you in advance for whatever you have to offer.<BR>
<BR>
With Warm Regards,<BR>
Jason<BR>
<BR>
=============================<BR>
Jason Kemp, ADS Programmer IV<BR>
(512)458-7111 ext. 1+3375<BR>
Internet Address:  jason.kemp@tdh.state.tx.us<BR>
<BR>
Most computer virus and email alerts are hoaxes.  For more info, check out:<BR>
http://urbanlegends.miningco.com/culture/beliefs/urbanlegends/library/blhoax.htm<BR>
==============================<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 11:39:19 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Gencon UK<BR>
<BR>
>From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
<BR>
>We regularly get British tourists who inquire about driving to <BR>
>Disneyland "for the day."  Disneyland is 450 miles, and two <BR>
>mountain ranges, from San Francisco.<BR>
<BR>
Disneyland is also on the far side of Los Angeles from San<BR>
Francisco, which can be almost as time-consuming an obstacle as<BR>
the mountain ranges (depending on what time of day it is).<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.<BR>
http://im.yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 11:48:47 -0700<BR>
From: "Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Basic Economics (was Re: Astronomy in the 57th Century)<BR>
<BR>
Via electronic medium on 4/9/00 4:46 PM, pnewman@gci.net issued forth:<BR>
<BR>
> The canonical text does not say that these designs and others<BR>
> we have not mentioned are standard it says "these designs"<BR>
> are standard. Therefore no other designs are standard unless<BR>
> another subsequent canonical product says that they are standard.<BR>
<BR>
So across 11,000 (eleven thousand) systems, this handful of ships are the<BR>
only "standard" craft in production? Absolutely ridiculous.<BR>
<BR>
There is no way any game company would ever produce a full listing of<BR>
"standard" designs for ships in the 3I, as we would be inundated with tons<BR>
of material (if printed on paper), and that without any pics, deckplans, or<BR>
descriptions. Think about an exhaustive description of standard vehicles<BR>
from Terra circa now. Heck, restrict yourself to a single type like<BR>
aircraft, or seaships. The ships given in the initial canon LBB's are<BR>
clearly an example of the most common types found in the Spinward Marches<BR>
region in the early second millennium of the 3I. The encounter charts can<BR>
not be used as verification that other types are non-existant, as the charts<BR>
were limited by the amount of material that was covered, which in turn was<BR>
limited by how much info can be stuffed into a rule book. Just because no<BR>
mention is made of telephone sanitation engineers, does not mean they are<BR>
not employed in the 3I.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 13:53:18 -0600 (CST)<BR>
From: "Jason Kemp" <Jason.Kemp@tdh.state.tx.us><BR>
Subject: Maps of the Imperium site gone?<BR>
<BR>
Greetings, All,<BR>
<BR>
I tried once more today to download A. Jackson's great analysis of <BR>
the trade routes of the Imperium in PDF format, and it looks like the <BR>
server is back up and running, but without his website on it.<BR>
<BR>
This is the message I recieved:<BR>
<BR>
<cut and paste><BR>
<BR>
The web page you are trying to access doesn't exist on Yahoo!<BR>
GeoCities. http://www.geocities.com/ac_jackson/trav/trade.pdf Check<BR>
our system status to see if we're having trouble or visit our help<BR>
area for information and assistance.<BR>
<BR>
</cut and paste><BR>
<BR>
I've tried a few of the other links I have to the same website, but <BR>
get the same response. Any thoughts out there on my next course of <BR>
action?<BR>
<BR>
Thanks,<BR>
Jason<BR>
<BR>
=============================<BR>
Jason Kemp, ADS Programmer IV<BR>
(512)458-7111 ext. 1+3375<BR>
Internet Address:  jason.kemp@tdh.state.tx.us<BR>
<BR>
Most computer virus and email alerts are hoaxes.  For more info, check out:<BR>
http://urbanlegends.miningco.com/culture/beliefs/urbanlegends/library/blhoax.htm<BR>
==============================<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 12:00:08 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: re: Wars within the Imperium<BR>
<BR>
>From: "Katharine Whitchurch" <katts@globalfreeway.com.au><BR>
<BR>
>As an example of the attitude the Imperium probably has, look <BR>
>at the attitude of the US to the 1982 Falklands War.<BR>
>That was was between two American "client/ally" states (I dont <BR>
>think it's pushing it too hard to compare the Imperium to the <BR>
>Pax Americana), and the USA really didnt have a problem - just <BR>
>as long as they played nice, and nobody asked them to pick a <BR>
>side.<BR>
<BR>
Imperium to Pax Americana is a bit of a push, actually, but the<BR>
Falklands case is an interesting analogy.  The USA actually did<BR>
pick sides, by providing intelligence to the UK but not to<BR>
Argentina, primarily in the form of satellite images.  <BR>
<BR>
I was rather disappointed at the time not to see President<BR>
Reagan invoke the Monroe Doctrine and broker a peace by making<BR>
the Falklands a US protectorate.  (The Monroe Doctrine, espoused<BR>
by President Monroe a very long time ago, basically says that it<BR>
is United States policy to oppose any European state's assertion<BR>
of hegemony in North and South America -- that is, only the USA<BR>
is to have hegemony over the Americas.)<BR>
<BR>
>I loved the Pennsylvania war analogy btw :)<BR>
<BR>
Me, too.  I could just hear President Clinton's easy-going,<BR>
deal-making, good-ole-boy voice making that announcement.<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.<BR>
http://im.yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 21:01:45 +0200 (METDST)<BR>
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk><BR>
Subject: Re: TL/Pixie<BR>
<BR>
Ian Ferguson writes:<BR>
>Hans Rancke-Madsen writes:<BR>
><BR>
>>Pixie doesn't have enough men to run a starport, let alone a shipyard, even<BR>
>>if they had gotten the facilities for free. <BR>
> <BR>
>I'm not sure that I necessarily agree.  How many sophonts are required<BR>
>to run a starport?<BR>
<BR>
A class A starport? Lots. If you'll wait until I get my copy of<BR>
_GT:Starports_ I may be able to give you some more concrete numbers.<BR>
 <BR>
>>Since the Navy use their own couriers there's no reason why a Naval Base<BR>
>>would generate any need for an X-boat connection.<BR>
> <BR>
>IMTU, the navy uses the x-boat system for most routine communications,<BR>
>reserving special couriers for top secret/emergency messages.  YMMV.<BR>
<BR>
Ian, what you do IYTU is your own affair. What I do IMTU is mine. Frankly,<BR>
and don't take this the wrong way, I'm not terribly interested in how you<BR>
do things IYTU (except insofar it is something I can use in mine). And I<BR>
don't need anybody's approval for what I do in mine. Nor do I really expect<BR>
others to care tremendously about it. I discuss these things as a<BR>
pleasurable interlectual exercise, and in order to make it interesting<BR>
enough  for others to discuss it with me, I generally talk about the OTU.<BR>
Sort of makes it easier to reach some common ground. <BR>
<BR>
>Why do you suppose that the x-boat link goes through Pixie?<BR>
<BR>
I think it is a mistake that ought to be rectified. Kinorb is supposed to be<BR>
a retirement home for local fat cats, so I can accept that they have<BR>
wrangled an X-boat link. But why go through Boughene and Pixie to get<BR>
there? From Feri to Kinorb is a jump-4, so why add another two weeks to<BR>
the communication times? Why NOT have an occasional X-boat jump directly<BR>
from Feri to Kinorb? A well-designed X-boat network would have the main<BR>
route goung from Regina to Roup to Efate. If Kinorb needs a link, make it<BR>
either Roup-Feri-Kinorb or Roup-Boughene-Kinorb, depending on whether Feri<BR>
or Boughene has the most clout. Or if both Feri and Boughene has enough<BR>
clout to get a link, give Boughene a direct link from Roup. It is only 4<BR>
parsecs from Roup, why delay the mail by going through Feri first?<BR>
<BR>
But no matter how you twist it, Pixie does not rate an X-boat link.<BR>
 <BR>
>>There has to be a reason why the traffic is there in the first place,<BR>
>>and there isn't. Furthermore, if the traffic WAS there and generated all<BR>
>>that business, why isn't there more people catering to it? <BR>
> <BR>
>I posted some potential trade routes through Pixie already, <BR>
<BR>
Yep, but they didn't make sense.<BR>
<BR>
>I think that all trade between Yorbund (?)<BR>
<BR>
My guess is that you mean Boughene.<BR>
<BR>
>...and the Dentus cluster would tend to go through Pixie, <BR>
<BR>
And my guess is that it would go directly from Boughene, since it is the<BR>
same distance anyway. Going through Pixie would be a detour for anything<BR>
except trade to Dentus, where it would merely be the same as going through<BR>
Kinorb to Dentus. Of course, that's jump-3 traffic. Jump-2 traffic CAN'T<BR>
go through Pixie without using extra tankage.<BR>
<BR>
>...and trade from Moughas (?) <BR>
<BR>
You mean Menorb, right?<BR>
<BR>
>...to the Dentus cluster can just as easily go through Pixie as Boughene.<BR>
<BR>
Granted, but that cuts both ways. It could just as easily go through<BR>
Boughene as Pixie. And since Boughene has 630,000 people working for<BR>
the starport authority [that's an awful lot, isn't it?] and Pixie has<BR>
at most 90, something suggests that it does go through Boughene.<BR>
<BR>
>There might also be some traffic to the Vargr extents, could some of it be<BR>
>going through Pixie?<BR>
<BR>
Yres is more likely.<BR>
<BR>
>Anyways, I don't need a lot of traffic, in fact I don't want too much, just<BR>
>enough to keep 90 colonists busy.<BR>
<BR>
Ah, I was wondering if you'd reply to that point. The traffic to keep 90<BR>
people busy isn't enough to keep a Class A starport open. Class A starports<BR>
are BIG. Why, you can even have starships constructed at them.<BR>
 <BR>
 <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
      Hans Rancke<BR>
University of Copenhagen<BR>
     rancke@diku.dk<BR>
- ------------<BR>
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent<BR>
         events based on the individual situation."<BR>
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2286<BR>
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Traveller-digest       Monday, April 10 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2287<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Running A Sci-Fi Campaign<BR>
the war in Pennsylvania<BR>
Re: Ludowick Gambit<BR>
Re: That pesky TL definition again<BR>
Re: Maps of the Imperium site gone?<BR>
Re: Striker miniatures & Scale TML #2281<BR>
Re: Basic Economics (was Re: Astronomy in the 57th Century)<BR>
Forine histroy part 2<BR>
Striker One vs Striker Two<BR>
Re: Psionic detection <BR>
Re: The Ludowick Gambit <longish><BR>
[ot] Re: the war in Pennsylvania<BR>
Planet Three Traveller Navigator<BR>
re:  Idle Traveller Musings<BR>
Forine histroy part 2<BR>
RE: Running A Sci-Fi Campaign<BR>
Re: Notes on building Heya<BR>
Re: TL/Pixie<BR>
Re: Distances (OT)<BR>
re: Wars within the Imperium<BR>
Re: Basic Economics (was Re: Astronomy in the 57th Century)<BR>
Re: the war in Pennsylvania<BR>
Re: Idle Traveller Musings<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 21:04:26 +0200<BR>
From: Ingo Heinscher <Hiroshi.Estigarribia@gmx.de><BR>
Subject: Re: Running A Sci-Fi Campaign<BR>
<BR>
At 13:30 10.04.00 -0600, Jason Kemp wrote:<BR>
>Greetings, All,<BR>
><BR>
>I'm a GM desperately looking for advice to improve his ability to run <BR>
>Sci-Fi campaigns. For some reason, I think I'm missing some critical <BR>
>point, because most of my SF games tend to end rather quickly, unlike <BR>
>my fantasy or World of Darkness games. I can't seem to get my players <BR>
>involved in them, and I am looking for suggestions to help me improve <BR>
>my ability to run a Traveller game that will last more than the first <BR>
>night or the first adventure. Is it really that big a difference in <BR>
>gamemastering?<BR>
<BR>
Dunno. But I often had the impression that there's a big difference in the<BR>
_players_ who like SF rather than fantasy. If you say you have no problem<BR>
letting standard fantasy or WoD games last for long times, well, so I say,<BR>
my experience is similar. Most RPG'ers prefer fantasy settings. I don't<BR>
know why, I don't know what to do against it. To me, it seems merely a<BR>
fact. A sad one.<BR>
<BR>
The feel of an SF universe is much more "deterministic" or "less<BR>
simplifying" than in any fantasy setting. The players are no mythical<BR>
heroes, and the background doesn't even give their PC's the potential of<BR>
becoming one. Even the villains are not super-foes, but human beings (or<BR>
something like that...), perhaps with powerful gear, perhaps with a large<BR>
organizatio behind them, but after all, just vulnerable, mortal beings like<BR>
anyone else in the unverse. Everything has its scientific (and thus a bit<BR>
real-world-like) explanation, at least, for someone. Perhaps it's less<BR>
suitable for "fleeing reality" than fantasy.<BR>
<BR>
If you want to runa SF game, I recommend you find the right players for it.<BR>
(And, BTW, when you've found them, please tell me your trick. :) ) <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
"This was not meant to be an aggresssion against the Siru Zirka. But we had<BR>
to organize our affairs a bit more efficiently. To be honest, we have had<BR>
to do this for almost 300 years by now."<BR>
unknown Terran politician, -2398 Imp<BR>
;-) ingo heinscher <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 12:10:09 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: the war in Pennsylvania<BR>
<BR>
Now that I think for a moment, I recall that when I was in YMCA<BR>
Youth Government in Boise, Idaho, in 1975, the last act of our<BR>
state legislature was to declare war on South Dakota.  I don't<BR>
remember the reason put into the resolution.  <BR>
<BR>
We learned the following year that the South Dakota Youth<BR>
Government declared war on Idaho in response, but I lost track<BR>
of the dispute after I got out of high school.  I suppose that<BR>
the states are still at war twenty-five years later.  <BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.<BR>
http://im.yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 18:33:46 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Ludowick Gambit<BR>
<BR>
At 7:17 -0400 10/4/00, shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) wrote:<BR>
>No, he'd just run for a few hours. From the battle of Marathon.<BR>
>"Marathons" are the *exact* length of his run. But *he* wasn't trained<BR>
>for it, nor was he holding anything in reserve.<BR>
<BR>
They're a couple of hundred yards longer since an Olympics in the UK <BR>
at the start of the Century, IIRC.<BR>
<BR>
Extended to end by the nobility.<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 12:16:05 -0700<BR>
From: "Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com><BR>
Subject: Re: That pesky TL definition again<BR>
<BR>
Via electronic medium on 4/9/00 5:02 PM, semo@pil.net issued forth:<BR>
<BR>
> Are local mineral resources "part" of a world's TL? I don't know. I'm not<BR>
> wild about that, but it is an interesting idea. I think that this is a<BR>
> mis-interpretation of the position that TL indicates what can be produced<BR>
> locally.<BR>
<BR>
It's the cutting off from the rest of the world/imperium that's the<BR>
neck-breaker here. Bucky and others have demonstrated how the attributes of<BR>
one system or entity are a result of it's relationship to local conditions,<BR>
in the case of Traveller the star system a parsec or so over. I really doubt<BR>
you can have TL represent anything other than what is going on "right now".<BR>
There are simply too many factors, such as what the economy is based on,<BR>
natural resources, demographics, etc. , to accurately predict what would<BR>
happen if the world was cut off from others, based on a single value (TL).<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 12:19:45 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Maps of the Imperium site gone?<BR>
<BR>
Jason Kemp writes:<BR>
> Greetings, All,<BR>
> <BR>
> I tried once more today to download A. Jackson's great analysis of <BR>
> the trade routes of the Imperium in PDF format, and it looks like the <BR>
> server is back up and running, but without his website on it.<BR>
<BR>
Yes, its gone.  It was apparently disabled (for reasons which are unknown to<BR>
me) and I decided to delete the site.  If there's anyone willing to host the<BR>
files, I'd like to make them available again.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 13:20:58 -0600<BR>
From: "Eric T. Holmes" <eholmes@lanl.gov><BR>
Subject: Re: Striker miniatures & Scale TML #2281<BR>
<BR>
Fellow TMLers:<BR>
<BR>
We have had some good gaming sessions using Striker One and 6mm (1/300 or<BR>
1/285)<BR>
scale miniatures.  The ground scale plays well at 1::1000, where 1mm = 1 meter.<BR>
<BR>
Fire teams are placed on a 20mm x 20mm stand.  Each PC plays a fire team<BR>
"leader"<BR>
and has there own figure in 6mm.  We can play out a Striker scenario on the<BR>
4' x 4'<BR>
folded dining room table and it usually takes one session.<BR>
<BR>
One player says she likes 25mm because of the visual impact, but<BR>
understands the<BR>
need for large areas to be covered in outdoor environs.<BR>
<BR>
FASA makes some great sci-fi miniature vehicles and personnel.  I couldn't<BR>
tell you<BR>
which infantry figures to use as I've had the for what seem ages.<BR>
<BR>
To speed play, I sometimes use SJG's Ogre Miniatures Combat Results Tables, and<BR>
this for those stands that are not in the Player Characters danger zone.<BR>
<BR>
I've also taken ideas for scenarios from Advanced Squad Leader and Squad Leader<BR>
scenarios.<BR>
<BR>
Hope these ideas spur some more.<BR>
<BR>
 <BR>
Eric<BR>
<BR>
eholmes@lanl.gov 			holmberg@thuntek.net <BR>
7am to 4pm Mountain Time 	6pm to Midnight Mountain Time<BR>
<BR>
IMTU: he+, tc+, tm, tne, t4, tg, tt, to, ru, ge, 3i+, c+, jt, au, st, ls+,<BR>
pi+, ta+, <BR>
		as+, va+, dr+, _sa_, kk--, hi--, so++, zh, vi, da, sy, _hu_ <BR>
			(sa = other sapients, hu = other humani)<BR>
<BR>
Lacedaemon, we have done our duty.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 15:35:21 -0400<BR>
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Basic Economics (was Re: Astronomy in the 57th Century)<BR>
<BR>
Peter Newman wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> If you read a sentence which said "Standard US cars are manufactured<BR>
> by GM, Ford and Chrysler." wouldn't you interpret this statement<BR>
> as explicitly excluding other manufacturer's cars from being<BR>
> standard?<BR>
<BR>
Then who manufacturers the Automatic cars?<BR>
<BR>
bloo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 14:36:56 -0500<BR>
From: tim@premier.net<BR>
Subject: Forine histroy part 2<BR>
<BR>
Here is the second part of Forine's history.<BR>
<BR>
Recent History:<BR>
<BR>
Over the next 26 years relations with the Imperium declined over the <BR>
Elixabeth issue.  Though the Imperium tried to force, Forine to relinquish <BR>
its hold on Elixabeth, Forine doggedly continued to poor funds and <BR>
resources into the system.  Their main objective being the construction <BR>
of a starport and other facilitates for the future colony ships.  The plan <BR>
continued into the 1000 as the starport opened for business in 1105, as <BR>
well as the first domed guardians.  By this time, the population had <BR>
grown to 20,000.<BR>
<BR>
With the outbreak of the 5th Frontier War, Forine, saw a useful friend in <BR>
the Sword Worlds and turned once again to their former masters.  They <BR>
launched small raids against Imperium forces on Mertactor and Mille <BR>
Falcs.  Imperium forces, consisting of elements of the new 100th fleet, <BR>
under the Duke of Glisten took this opportunity to settle the Elixabeth <BR>
question as they advanced against Sword World and other locale forces <BR>
towards the end of the war.  Task Forces Justice made up of a few <BR>
Cruisers, fleet transports, and a dreadnought arrived in system to meet <BR>
what appeared to be limited resistance, from two destroyers.  The TFJ <BR>
made quick work of these forces and moved on to their objective.<BR>
<BR>
Following standard fleet practices the marines of TFJ dropped quickly on <BR>
the starport of the planet.  Once on the ground resistance form locale <BR>
ground forces stiffened; forcing the marines to dig in just on the <BR>
outskirts of the starport and call down reinforcements. As these troop <BR>
shuttles neared the surface, all hell broke out.  Several fighters appeared <BR>
from over the horizon to down a majority of the reinforcing shuttles and <BR>
their defending fighters before being driven off.  At the same time several <BR>
SDBs appeared out from behind the masking of Hippidoss lighting <BR>
storms to attack and hold the task force fleet in position.  Shortly <BR>
afterwards 5 Forine raiders supported by a Sword World heavy Cruiser <BR>
task force jumped in system.<BR>
<BR>
As the naval engagement raged above; the marines at the Forine starport <BR>
began noticing a weakening of the Froinen lines.  As they assembled to <BR>
take advantage of this opportunity, the Forunen sprung a trap over half a <BR>
millennium in the making.  With a push of a button, from within the HCP <BR>
offices, Hellmund erupted poring molten rock over the shocked marines.  <BR>
The returning Forine forces quickly mopped up the surveying marines.  <BR>
Meanwhile the naval battle ended in a draw. Recognizing the defeat of <BR>
his grown forces, the TFJ admiral jumped the remainder of his fleet out of <BR>
the system, to Elixabeth seizing it.<BR>
<BR>
The battle for Forine ended in a complete draw for both sides.  Almost all <BR>
of Forines offensive forces were shattered and they lost Elixabeth to <BR>
TFJ.  More damaging then this was the destruction of the Eisberg <BR>
starport.  For the Imperium, the lost forces of TFJ prevented any further <BR>
attempts against the Sword Worlds from rimward or against Forine.  Yet, <BR>
they achieved their secondary objective by seizing Elixabeth and <BR>
stabilizing the Sword World rimward boarder.<BR>
<BR>
The end of the 5th Frontier War did not mean the end of the political <BR>
squabbling between the two.  Forine continued to insist that Elixabeth <BR>
was their colony.  The Imperium created a naval base on Elixabeth to <BR>
enforce their control.  Forines government increased taxation in an effort <BR>
to rebuild the lost fleet and starport, while sending wave after wave of <BR>
propaganda to Elixabeth.  By the end of 1117, The Duke of Glisten, his <BR>
temper strained to the breaking point.,  imposed Imperial trade and <BR>
cultural sanctions against Forine.  Faced with burden of sanctions and <BR>
ever increasing taxation the people of Forine have organized several tax <BR>
protests and some have began to attack public buildings.  <BR>
Tim Reynolds<BR>
tim@premier.net <BR>
225-334-5063<BR>
- ------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
Getting an education was a bit like a communicable <BR>
sexual disease.  It made you unsuitable for <BR>
a lot of jobs and then you had the urge to pass it on.<BR>
<BR>
Terry Pratchett <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 13:38:01 -0600<BR>
From: "Eric T. Holmes" <eholmes@lanl.gov><BR>
Subject: Striker One vs Striker Two<BR>
<BR>
Fellow TMLers:<BR>
<BR>
What are the significant differences between each version of Striker?<BR>
<BR>
Eric<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 12:39:35 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Psionic detection <BR>
<BR>
>From: Ingo Heinscher <Hiroshi.Estigarribia@gmx.de><BR>
>Subject: Re: Psionic detection (was Re: Famile Spofulam<BR>
Hi->Sensitivity Scout)<BR>
<BR>
>For MTU, I always assumed that psionics work at the speed of <BR>
>light. <BR>
<BR>
That's an interesting question.  How do we measure the speed of<BR>
the brain and of thought?  The brain operates using<BR>
electrochemical reactions that are rebroadcast from axon to<BR>
synapse throughout the cerebral cortex.  That speed is<BR>
considerably slower than light, as I recall from physiological<BR>
psychology class a million years ago.<BR>
<BR>
The speed of thought is something else entirely -- it's more<BR>
poetic or metaphysical than quantifiable, I think.  For example,<BR>
I just thought about my phys psych class that took place 22<BR>
years ago, 3000 miles away.  The thought took a fraction of a<BR>
second to form.  Did my thought move through both space and time<BR>
at that speed?  <BR>
<BR>
That doesn't really resolve anything, does it?<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.<BR>
http://im.yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 12:40:07 -0700<BR>
From: "Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com><BR>
Subject: Re: The Ludowick Gambit <longish><BR>
<BR>
Via electronic medium on 4/9/00 9:08 PM, Hiroshi.Estigarribia@gmx.de issued<BR>
forth:<BR>
<BR>
> personally, I don't like the idea of the universe as a living, telepathic<BR>
> entity. :-)<BR>
<BR>
You'll probably grow out of that eventually. ;)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 15:45:20 -0400<BR>
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
Subject: [ot] Re: the war in Pennsylvania<BR>
<BR>
At a similar operation in Oklahoma, I authored a bill would have<BR>
required all Okies to serve in the Oklahoma National Guard for<BR>
two years between 16 and 24.  The Student Governor and I<BR>
cooked this up as the last bill to be submitted to bring some life<BR>
to the otherwise dull and overly serious event.  Of course, they<BR>
took it too seriously and extended the Q&A time to an hour.<BR>
I coopted all of the serious folks by amending my own bill to<BR>
do all the work that would be required in all the serious bills<BR>
that had been offered, such as carnival ride inspection, day care,<BR>
etc.  Thats when the vocal ones got really pissed at me, but<BR>
the bill passed anyway.<BR>
<BR>
Ah, student government.  You can't enjoy it until you realize<BR>
it just doesn't matter.<BR>
<BR>
Ob. Trav, ever stuck for an officious government type?<BR>
Imagine your high school or college student government.<BR>
If you were in student government, well, I guess you know<BR>
best anyway, right?  :-P<BR>
<BR>
bloo<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Glenn Goffin wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Now that I think for a moment, I recall that when I was in YMCA<BR>
> Youth Government in Boise, Idaho, in 1975, the last act of our<BR>
> state legislature was to declare war on South Dakota.  I don't<BR>
> remember the reason put into the resolution.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 15:50:58 -0400<BR>
From: Jeff Zeitlin <jzeitlin@cyburban.com><BR>
Subject: Planet Three Traveller Navigator<BR>
<BR>
Someone asked about it recently.  I have it.  It will be included<BR>
in the May update of Freelance Traveller; look in the Computer<BR>
Connection.<BR>
<BR>
Note: It is a Win31 program that _almost_ works properly in<BR>
Win9x. You can use it, mostly. But there are definite bugs.<BR>
- --<BR>
Jeff Zeitlin<BR>
jzeitlin@cyburban.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 12:50:06 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: re:  Idle Traveller Musings<BR>
<BR>
>From: "Karen and Michael Hughes" <kmhughes@dynamite.com.au><BR>
<BR>
>1) Has anyone GMed Norris? If so, how did they play him? As an <BR>
<BR>
Arrival Vengeance ends with a debriefing by Norris, and gives<BR>
him a lot of color.  <BR>
<BR>
>2) Has anyone crafted a campaign around a central character <BR>
<BR>
That's an ongoing problem with character-based campaigns.  If<BR>
I'm going to do a character-based campaign, it will usually be<BR>
for one-on-one sessions.  I try to do plot-based campaigns that<BR>
integrate the characters and give them room to develop.  <BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.<BR>
http://im.yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 14:36:56 -0500<BR>
From: tim@premier.net<BR>
Subject: Forine histroy part 2<BR>
<BR>
Here is the second part of Forine's history.<BR>
<BR>
Recent History:<BR>
<BR>
Over the next 26 years relations with the Imperium declined over the <BR>
Elixabeth issue.  Though the Imperium tried to force, Forine to relinquish <BR>
its hold on Elixabeth, Forine doggedly continued to poor funds and <BR>
resources into the system.  Their main objective being the construction <BR>
of a starport and other facilitates for the future colony ships.  The plan <BR>
continued into the 1000 as the starport opened for business in 1105, as <BR>
well as the first domed guardians.  By this time, the population had <BR>
grown to 20,000.<BR>
<BR>
With the outbreak of the 5th Frontier War, Forine, saw a useful friend in <BR>
the Sword Worlds and turned once again to their former masters.  They <BR>
launched small raids against Imperium forces on Mertactor and Mille <BR>
Falcs.  Imperium forces, consisting of elements of the new 100th fleet, <BR>
under the Duke of Glisten took this opportunity to settle the Elixabeth <BR>
question as they advanced against Sword World and other locale forces <BR>
towards the end of the war.  Task Forces Justice made up of a few <BR>
Cruisers, fleet transports, and a dreadnought arrived in system to meet <BR>
what appeared to be limited resistance, from two destroyers.  The TFJ <BR>
made quick work of these forces and moved on to their objective.<BR>
<BR>
Following standard fleet practices the marines of TFJ dropped quickly on <BR>
the starport of the planet.  Once on the ground resistance form locale <BR>
ground forces stiffened; forcing the marines to dig in just on the <BR>
outskirts of the starport and call down reinforcements. As these troop <BR>
shuttles neared the surface, all hell broke out.  Several fighters appeared <BR>
from over the horizon to down a majority of the reinforcing shuttles and <BR>
their defending fighters before being driven off.  At the same time several <BR>
SDBs appeared out from behind the masking of Hippidoss lighting <BR>
storms to attack and hold the task force fleet in position.  Shortly <BR>
afterwards 5 Forine raiders supported by a Sword World heavy Cruiser <BR>
task force jumped in system.<BR>
<BR>
As the naval engagement raged above; the marines at the Forine starport <BR>
began noticing a weakening of the Froinen lines.  As they assembled to <BR>
take advantage of this opportunity, the Forunen sprung a trap over half a <BR>
millennium in the making.  With a push of a button, from within the HCP <BR>
offices, Hellmund erupted poring molten rock over the shocked marines.  <BR>
The returning Forine forces quickly mopped up the surveying marines.  <BR>
Meanwhile the naval battle ended in a draw. Recognizing the defeat of <BR>
his grown forces, the TFJ admiral jumped the remainder of his fleet out of <BR>
the system, to Elixabeth seizing it.<BR>
<BR>
The battle for Forine ended in a complete draw for both sides.  Almost all <BR>
of Forines offensive forces were shattered and they lost Elixabeth to <BR>
TFJ.  More damaging then this was the destruction of the Eisberg <BR>
starport.  For the Imperium, the lost forces of TFJ prevented any further <BR>
attempts against the Sword Worlds from rimward or against Forine.  Yet, <BR>
they achieved their secondary objective by seizing Elixabeth and <BR>
stabilizing the Sword World rimward boarder.<BR>
<BR>
The end of the 5th Frontier War did not mean the end of the political <BR>
squabbling between the two.  Forine continued to insist that Elixabeth <BR>
was their colony.  The Imperium created a naval base on Elixabeth to <BR>
enforce their control.  Forines government increased taxation in an effort <BR>
to rebuild the lost fleet and starport, while sending wave after wave of <BR>
propaganda to Elixabeth.  By the end of 1117, The Duke of Glisten, his <BR>
temper strained to the breaking point.,  imposed Imperial trade and <BR>
cultural sanctions against Forine.  Faced with burden of sanctions and <BR>
ever increasing taxation the people of Forine have organized several tax <BR>
protests and some have began to attack public buildings.  <BR>
Tim Reynolds<BR>
tim@premier.net <BR>
225-334-5063<BR>
- ------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
Getting an education was a bit like a communicable <BR>
sexual disease.  It made you unsuitable for <BR>
a lot of jobs and then you had the urge to pass it on.<BR>
<BR>
Terry Pratchett <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 21:07:46 +0100<BR>
From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Running A Sci-Fi Campaign<BR>
<BR>
Jason Kemp wrote:<BR>
> I'm a GM desperately looking for advice to improve his ability<BR>
> to run Sci-Fi campaigns. For some reason, I think I'm missing<BR>
> some critical point, because most of my SF games tend to end<BR>
> rather quickly, unlike my fantasy or World of Darkness games. I<BR>
> can't seem to get my players involved in them, and I am looking<BR>
> for suggestions to help me improve my ability to run a<BR>
> Traveller game that will last more than the first night or the<BR>
> first adventure. Is it really that big a difference in<BR>
> gamemastering?<BR>
> <BR>
> Any assistance, including articles on Sci-Fi gamemastering<BR>
> available online or your own personal experiences, would be<BR>
> greatly appreciated. Thank you in advance for whatever you have<BR>
> to offer.<BR>
<BR>
If its just SF campaigns that are the problem this  suggests  you<BR>
have no serious problems with  your  basic  GMing  technique.  It<BR>
could be a matter of taste for your  players.  An  obvious  first<BR>
thing to try is to come out and ask them what's turning them off.<BR>
<BR>
I know nothing of WoD games but  Fantasy  RPGs  (like  D&D,  etc)<BR>
usually have a sort of  instant  gratification  mechanism  called<BR>
experience points.  Kill something and you gain XPs (even if only<BR>
a few).  Gain enough XP and your  character  gets  more  powerful<BR>
*regardless of augmentation  by  equipment*.  In  SF  RPGs  (like<BR>
Traveller) if you kill  something  its  just  dead  ...  no  XPs.<BR>
Characters do eventually get more powerful (more skills) but this<BR>
is noticeable slower than the 'race' to gain  levels  typical  in<BR>
Fantasy RPGs.  If this is the case you could try being quick  and<BR>
generous with loot ... and try and wean them off it  at  a  later<BR>
date.<BR>
<BR>
Another possibility is that Fantasy RPGs  and  Vampire  RPGs  are<BR>
typically 'romantic'.  By this I mean they  can  have  a  certain<BR>
style and flair (and not the  "Mills & Boon"  type  romance).  Do<BR>
their characters like to pose?  Or are  they  all  just  pig-ugly<BR>
thugs systematically clearing out dungeons like a 'Nam team going<BR>
room to room?  If the former you may find trying  to  recreate  a<BR>
similar flair in your SF adventures may help.  Try  an  adventure<BR>
based on political intrigue in  a  subsector  or  sector  'royal'<BR>
court ... use David  Lynch's  film  Dune  for  inspiration.  Some<BR>
Fantasy adventures can be re-located (with some effort) into a SF<BR>
environment.<BR>
<BR>
Or maybe your players just don't like SF!<BR>
<BR>
Regards PLST<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 13:11:18 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Notes on building Heya<BR>
<BR>
>From: Idiot/Savant <idiot@flat.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
>	How far does free trade go in the Third Imperium >anyway? <BR>
There's already canon that Governments can restrict <BR>
>the import of things like guns and drugs - can this also be <BR>
>applied to air/rafts?  Or will the navy enforce "free-trade" at<BR>
<BR>
>meson-gun-point on governments who wish to restrict imports?<BR>
>	Personally I think that it only goes to "noninterference <BR>
>in interstellar commerce".  Worlds can't support piracy, and <BR>
>can't interfere in any way with traffic through their system.  <BR>
>This means no tarriffs on through-traffic, for example.  But <BR>
>they can restrict imports to approved technologies if they so <BR>
>wish.	<BR>
<BR>
I tend to agree.  The opportunity to participate in relatively<BR>
safe interstellar trade is an inducement to join the Imperium,<BR>
but it is not the sine qua non of the relationship between<BR>
Imperium and member state.  As long as a member state pays its<BR>
taxes and/or subjects its citizens to the Imperial draft, does<BR>
not engage in slavery or piracy, it can participate in as much<BR>
or as little interstellar commerce as it wants.  <BR>
<BR>
The Imperium is willing to forego some amount of potential<BR>
profits to the megacorporations in order to maintain domestic<BR>
tranquility and to be able to appear to be upholding the social<BR>
contract.  This is of course more true in the later Imperium<BR>
than earlier.   <BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.<BR>
http://im.yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 13:17:52 -0700<BR>
From: "Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com><BR>
Subject: Re: TL/Pixie<BR>
<BR>
Via electronic medium on 4/10/00 8:09 AM, ian@vax2.concordia.ca issued<BR>
forth:<BR>
<BR>
>> Pixie doesn't have enough men to run a starport, let alone a shipyard, even<BR>
>> if they had gotten the facilities for free.<BR>
> <BR>
> I'm not sure that I necessarily agree.  How many sophonts are required<BR>
> to run a starport?<BR>
<BR>
That get's into the "starship automation" bit that I believe is supposed to<BR>
be taboo. Star ship automation tech can IMO be applied to starport<BR>
automation. And are droids considered sophonts, are they included in the<BR>
population figure? IMTU they are not factored into population, and are a<BR>
reasonable handwave in cases like this.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 13:22:06 -0700<BR>
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Distances (OT)<BR>
<BR>
Jason Postma wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> The Great Salt Lake isn't much of an ocean.  Sure it's big, but it's not<BR>
> very deep, nothing lives in it except brine shrimp, and it stinks pretty bad<BR>
> when compared to the ocean.  If your Brit friends don't mind those<BR>
> differences - sure, send 'em on over.  We could use the tourist dollars.<BR>
> They can stick around to ski.<BR>
<BR>
Hey HEY HEY! <BR>
<BR>
The _last_ time we sent some Brits to Salt Lake they took the world land<BR>
speed record from us....<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Bruce Johnson<BR>
University of Arizona<BR>
College of Pharmacy<BR>
Information Technology Group<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 20:30:10 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: re: Wars within the Imperium<BR>
<BR>
At 15:01 -0400 10/4/00, Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com> wrote:<BR>
>I was rather disappointed at the time not to see President<BR>
>Reagan invoke the Monroe Doctrine and broker a peace by making<BR>
>the Falklands a US protectorate.  (The Monroe Doctrine, espoused<BR>
>by President Monroe a very long time ago, basically says that it<BR>
>is United States policy to oppose any European state's assertion<BR>
>of hegemony in North and South America -- that is, only the USA<BR>
>is to have hegemony over the Americas.)<BR>
<BR>
Hmm. Kind of a good way to piss off one of your cold war allies and <BR>
miss the chance to see a demo of some of the current military <BR>
hardware.<BR>
<BR>
And there is the small fact that the Falkland Islanders are British <BR>
Subjects, with British passports (albeit that good old Maggie was <BR>
trying to get rid of this at the time) so we weren't so much <BR>
'asserting hegemony' as liberating our own.<BR>
<BR>
How would the US have responded to, say, Alaska being occupied by the <BR>
Russians? Or Puerto Rico by <take your pick>?<BR>
<BR>
BTW I'm confused by your use of 'hegemony' here. My OED defines it as <BR>
"Leadership. predominance of one state of a confederacy, orig. <BR>
Ancient Greece". Is there another meaning, or does North American <BR>
English use it differently to British English? (Not a troll, a <BR>
serious question).<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 13:43:12<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Basic Economics (was Re: Astronomy in the 57th Century)<BR>
<BR>
At 03:35 PM 4/10/2000 -0400, you wrote:<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
>Peter Newman wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>> If you read a sentence which said "Standard US cars are manufactured<BR>
>> by GM, Ford and Chrysler." wouldn't you interpret this statement<BR>
>> as explicitly excluding other manufacturer's cars from being<BR>
>> standard?<BR>
><BR>
>Then who manufacturers the Automatic cars?<BR>
<BR>
Stick to the point, and stop trying to shift gears.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 13:47:23<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: the war in Pennsylvania<BR>
<BR>
At 12:10 PM 4/10/2000 -0700, you wrote:<BR>
>Now that I think for a moment, I recall that when I was in YMCA<BR>
>Youth Government in Boise, Idaho, in 1975, the last act of our<BR>
>state legislature was to declare war on South Dakota.  I don't<BR>
>remember the reason put into the resolution.  <BR>
<BR>
At my last Student Senate meet in 1984, we outlawed pretentious Jesuit Prep<BR>
schools.  The vote was 98-2.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 14:27:27 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Idle Traveller Musings<BR>
<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
<BR>
>Stalin without the murderous rage and paranoia.  Uncle Josef <BR>
>could be a great guy, fun loving and smiling, but able to focus<BR>
<BR>
>*completely* upon a problem or task.<BR>
<BR>
No meetings starting at midnight, either, I should think, nor<BR>
would Norris have written in the margins of a biography of Ivan<BR>
the Terrible, "teacher teacher teacher."<BR>
<BR>
Complete focus is indicated by Arrival: Vengeance.  Are there<BR>
any other canonical meetings with Norris?<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.<BR>
http://im.yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2287<BR>
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Traveller-digest       Monday, April 10 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2288<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
RE: Running A Sci-Fi Campaign<BR>
Re: Just what is TL?<BR>
RE: TL/Pixie<BR>
Re: G:T - Suitability of Brilliant Lances & Battle Rider<BR>
re: Wars within the Imperium<BR>
I apologize<BR>
Re: Idle Traveller Musings<BR>
re: Wars within the Imperium<BR>
Re: Scale in Space<BR>
Re: Vaya Con Dios class ship<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 17:35:00 -0400<BR>
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net><BR>
Subject: RE: Running A Sci-Fi Campaign<BR>
<BR>
Jason Kemp said:<BR>
<BR>
>I'm a GM desperately looking for advice to improve his ability to run<BR>
>Sci-Fi campaigns. For some reason, I think I'm missing some critical<BR>
>point, because most of my SF games tend to end rather quickly, unlike<BR>
>my fantasy or World of Darkness games. I can't seem to get my players<BR>
>involved in them, and I am looking for suggestions to help me improve<BR>
>my ability to run a Traveller game that will last more than the first<BR>
>night or the first adventure. Is it really that big a difference in<BR>
>gamemastering?<BR>
<BR>
Are your players sci-fi fans? If not, they may just be disinterested in the<BR>
genre. If they are sci-fi fans, they may be fans of a specific genre (like<BR>
cyberpunk), or certain television shows or movies (Star Trek, Star Wars,<BR>
Babylon 5). If that's the case, it might be handy to use ideas and themes<BR>
that they might be familiar with.<BR>
<BR>
Is the system that you use for fantasy gaming "class based"? Are there<BR>
obvious roles that the player characters can fit into to? I know that the<BR>
World of Darkness games have a class-based philosophy, to some extent. Your<BR>
players may be "lost at sea" (or "lost in space") without a direction or a<BR>
clear idea of what they're supposed to do. This is pretty common in<BR>
futuristic and modern RPGs.<BR>
<BR>
If this is the case, try providing clear goals that make sense to your<BR>
players. You're setting them loose in the big, bad, impersonal universe.<BR>
They may not be familiar with how the universe is run, or what "roles" there<BR>
may be to play. Just like in real life, it's helpful if the players can<BR>
orient themselves in future society. You might sit down with them before<BR>
they generate characters and talk to them about what sort of characters they<BR>
want to play.<BR>
<BR>
What style of roleplaying do your characters enjoy? Are they "smash and<BR>
grab" adventurers who like to beat down the bad guys and make off with loot?<BR>
If so, you might consider providing an outlet for their tendencies<BR>
(mercenary tickets, small unit commando raids, whatever). If they like<BR>
diplomacy and intrigue, either within our outside the group, you can work<BR>
this into a sci-fi campaign. In every Traveller campaign I've run, I've<BR>
started by asking the players what kind of adventures they want to perform,<BR>
or what kind of flavor they're looking for. When I ran TNE, for example, I<BR>
gave them the choice between the Regency and Reformation Coalition. When I<BR>
ran T4 recently, I asked them upfront what kind of campaign I wanted.<BR>
Communicating with your players can be very important.<BR>
<BR>
Finally, they may be used to games in which there is some sort of balance<BR>
inherent in the system. Perhaps you could pregenerate some balanced<BR>
characters who are intended to work together. Modern and futuristic games<BR>
can be spoiled by a lack of "screen time" given to player characters  (which<BR>
frequently happens if the skills of the characters overlap too much).<BR>
<BR>
>Any assistance, including articles on Sci-Fi gamemastering available<BR>
>online or your own personal experiences, would be greatly<BR>
>appreciated. Thank you in advance for whatever you have to offer.<BR>
<BR>
If you can give me more information about you and your group, I can probably<BR>
help you find a remedy, or point you toward useful articles. Good luck. :)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 23:35:30 +0200 (METDST)<BR>
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk><BR>
Subject: Re: Just what is TL?<BR>
<BR>
Chris Seamans writes:<BR>
> <BR>
>Hans Rancke-Madsen:<BR>
<BR>
>>A TL represents a range whein the tools available to the people of a world<BR>
>>falls. As such it is no more (and no less) arbitrary than, say,<BR>
>>hydrographic score which also denotes a range of values.<BR>
><BR>
>Tech Level is not the same as hydrographic percentage, world size, or<BR>
>population. With hydrographic percentage, for example, the percentage of the<BR>
>planet covered with water is indicated. <BR>
<BR>
I said hydrography score. A score of 5 indicates a range wherein the<BR>
hydrographic percentage can fall, in this case 45 to 54. A TL of 5<BR>
indicates a range wherein the local technology can fall.<BR>
<BR>
>There can be no "special case" with respect to hydrographic percentage. If<BR>
>50 percent of a planet is covered, it's 5.<BR>
<BR>
I agree that hydrographics scores is less complicated than TL, but even so<BR>
I've seen writeups where the ice caps were included in the score and<BR>
writeups where they were not, I've seen writeups where much of the land<BR>
surface was said to be swamp, and I've seen writeups where lake surfaces<BR>
were said not to count towards the hydrography score. And when it comes<BR>
to population score i've seen some pretty fancy dodges. Residents and non-,<BR>
children not included, only citizens counted, etc.<BR>
<BR>
>On the other hand, it is possibly to find a wide range of tech levels within<BR>
>a society in the real world. The tech level system has no inherent internal<BR>
>consistency, other digits in the UPP do.<BR>
<BR>
The TL gives an upper bound for the most important local society. I see<BR>
nothing lacking in consistency there.<BR>
 <BR>
>>I disagree. If you're restricted to work in bronze, your technological<BR>
>>options are limited to a certain range.<BR>
> <BR>
>Only with respect to metalworking. <BR>
<BR>
No, also with respect to a lot of other things.<BR>
<BR>
>Not all types of technology rely on the ability to work metal.<BR>
<BR>
No, but many do. Others depend on other basic technologies.<BR>
<BR>
>Certain construction technologies, for example. Other technologies may<BR>
>require metalworking to be done, but not in significant quantities. It<BR>
>is also possible for a world to avoid bronze working entirely.<BR>
<BR>
But only by substituting other, more advanced  metalworking technologies.<BR>
<BR>
>Again, all with respect to metalworking. How well you can work steel or<BR>
>iron, for example, says little or nothing with respect to how well you can<BR>
>work other materials. It says nothing at all about biotechnology.<BR>
<BR>
Many other materials requires metal implements to work.<BR>
<BR>
>It's not a matter of losing some, it's a matter that not all technologies<BR>
>are required to go from one level to another. The use of guns and steam<BR>
>power, for example, is not necessary to make internal combustion engines. <BR>
<BR>
True, but combustion engines replace steam engines for some applications.<BR>
<BR>
>Similarly, bronze age techniques for working metal are no necessary in<BR>
>order to create a modern galvanizing plant, nor to work with bronze using<BR>
>TL6 or 7 techniques.<BR>
<BR>
So? If you use bronze age techniques you're TL 1, if you use TL6 techniques<BR>
you're TL6.<BR>
<BR>
>The problem I was illustrating is that there is a vast gulf of difference<BR>
>between scientific theory (which the tech level system, being linear, seems<BR>
>to assume) and practical use (which the tech level system, as described in<BR>
>the rules, seems to assume as well). One does not need metalworking to<BR>
>discover gunpowder, nor does one need metalworking to discover concrete.<BR>
>One does not need metalworking to use either.<BR>
<BR>
You do need metalworking to use gunpowder as I pointed out. However, that's<BR>
by the way. In the TU you don't need anything except a mail order catalog<BR>
to discover any technology. TLs are, IMO, exclusively _application TL_, not<BR>
discovery TL.<BR>
<BR>
>>No, but you can't build a powerful steam engine without the ability to make<BR>
>>steel. And if you can make steel, certain construction methods become<BR>
>>possible that isn't possible without it.<BR>
><BR>
>Only partially true. Steel is nice for mobile steam engines, but not<BR>
>necessary for immobile steam engines. Certain construction methods become<BR>
>available with the use of steel, but steel-frame construction is not a<BR>
>necessary prerequisite for genetic theory, or rocketry, or plastics.<BR>
<BR>
The metalworking was an example. A pretty crucial example, because there<BR>
ARE a lot of technologies that do need metalworking, but only an example.<BR>
BTW, the examples you give are not good. Genetic theory is not a<BR>
technology and you certainly do need metal for practical applications of<BR>
rocketry and plastics.<BR>
 <BR>
>It would seem, however, that you have a definite notion of what makes a TL a<BR>
>TL. It seems that, at least at low tech levels, it's what metal the<BR>
>inhabitants of a world can work. How does that scale up? Is it always based<BR>
>on metalworking technology, or just for the first few tech levels?<BR>
<BR>
Well, metalworking is pretty important to many other technologies. But no,<BR>
that's not the only thing. As you pointed out, there are thenologies where<BR>
metalworking doesn't apply.<BR>
 <BR>
>>No, I think they work pretty well. It's not the gunpowder itself (that's a<BR>
>>TL 0 technology), it's the cannons and guns that define Weapons TL 3.<BR>
> <BR>
>Cannons can be built at TL1, if gunpowder has been discovered.<BR>
<BR>
You have to explain what definition of TL you are using. Obviously it isn't<BR>
the official one, since the definintion of TL 2 heavy military technology<BR>
is the ability to make small cannon (with TL 3 being defined by big cannons).<BR>
Please note that I'm not critizing you. I just don't know what you mean when<BR>
you say TL 1.<BR>
<BR>
>>And toy steam engines can be built at TL 1, but useful steam engines needs<BR>
>>steel, which comes along at TL 4 (at least, I hope I'm not misremembering<BR>
>>my TLs; I inadvertently left the relevant books at home today).<BR>
> <BR>
>No problem. Coal powered steam comes along at TL4, so I suspect you're<BR>
>right. Still, the water wheel is listed as TL3, and it doesn't require any<BR>
>other TL3 technology. The water wheel can be built with TL1 technology. Wind<BR>
>power is listed as TL2, but doesn't require any other TL2 technology.<BR>
>Windmills (and sails) can both be built at TL1.<BR>
<BR>
I would say that that is a mistake. I'd certainly allow water wheels in any<BR>
TL 1 community IMTU.<BR>
<BR>
>>_Hard Times_ makes the point that many techniques, once discovered, can be<BR>
>>"backdated" to earlier TLs. Crop rotation is (IMO) a TL 0 technique.<BR>
><BR>
>I asked you before to give some indication as to what makes a specific tech<BR>
>level a specific tech level. You said you wouldn't. Now you're throwing out<BR>
>your opinion of what tech level a specific farming technique is. It's not<BR>
>fair to hold back information that I previously requested and which you<BR>
>denied giving me.<BR>
<BR>
As I recall it, I said I'd need to bring the relevant books with me to<BR>
answer that. But I'll do what I can.<BR>
<BR>
>Okay, so what makes crop rotation a TL0 technique?<BR>
<BR>
The fact that it can be implemented without any other technology.<BR>
<BR>
>>I don't see a problem. All the TL 12 machinery is imported. Technologically<BR>
>>it's completely divorced from the host society. The local society remains<BR>
>>TL 5.<BR>
> <BR>
>This is precisely what you said couldn't happen in the case of Heya.<BR>
<BR>
No, I said it couldn't be happening on a large scale on Heya. If it did,<BR>
Heya would have an agricultural TL of 12.<BR>
<BR>
>So, you've changed your opinion now, or contradict yourself, or is there<BR>
>some subtlety I'm missing?<BR>
<BR>
Well, I don't know how subtle it is, but you seem to be missing it. It's<BR>
the concepts 'in quantity' and 'in general use'.<BR>
<BR>
>>>Then you actually agree that it is abstract. To say that something is<BR>
>>>abstract is to say that it *suggests* something else.<BR>
>><BR>
>>No I don't. 'Abstract' means "a:disassociated from any specific instance",<BR>
>>"b:difficult to understand", or "c:insufficiently factual" (Websters). I<BR>
>>maintain that TL is associated with a concrete range of technologies and<BR>
>>that it is sufficiently factual to be useful.<BR>
> <BR>
>I'm not sure how it is that you, personally, use a dictionary to acquire<BR>
>definitions.<BR>
<BR>
I want to make sure I haven't misunderstood a term so I use an online<BR>
dictionary to check. That's how.<BR>
<BR>
>There are more there then you've listed. <BR>
<BR>
Those were the three adjectival definitions I found.<BR>
<BR>
>I really don't like it when a discussion gets to the point of arguing over<BR>
>dictionary definitions, <BR>
<BR>
Really? Yet you've done it yourself, and very recently too. I quote from an<BR>
earlier post of yours:<BR>
<BR>
>>>Arbitrary has a dictionary definition of "based on or determined by<BR>
>>>individual preference or convenience rather than by necessity or the<BR>
>>>intrinsic nature of something".<BR>
<BR>
>Please note the number of definitions that you've quoted above. You have<BR>
>lighted on "insufficiently factual", and proceeded to misinterpret that<BR>
>particular definition (which is "insufficiently factual: FORMAL") which is<BR>
>not the way I meant the word. I made it clear that this was not the way I<BR>
>meant the word. <BR>
<BR>
Pardon me. I won't presume to tell you what you meant, but I can inform you<BR>
that you did not make it clear to me what you meant.<BR>
<BR>
>Suffice to say, I do believe that the TL rating is, in a sense, formal, in<BR>
>that it, "constitutes to the shape and structure of something as<BR>
>distinguished from its material". Or, to put it another way, it gives a<BR>
>general suggestion or impression as opposed to being a reference to the<BR>
>specifics. I understand well that stooping to dictionary definitions makes<BR>
>me a wanker, but I do so only in order to illustrate that I am using the<BR>
>term correctly.<BR>
<BR>
You may be using it correctly. I can't tell because I can't make out what<BR>
you mean.<BR>
 <BR>
>>The MT rules specifically splits TL up into such sub-groups.<BR>
> <BR>
>Where? I don't recall this in any of the main rulebooks.<BR>
<BR>
It's in _Referee's Companion_, pp. 26-34. And there is also something about<BR>
it in _World Builder's Handbook_, but I don't have that with me, so I can't<BR>
give the page numbers.<BR>
<BR>
>I'm not saying it's not there, I just don't remember it. Still, I don't<BR>
>support that idea, and it would seem that you don't either, or you would<BR>
>have simply said at the beginning "divide the TL up into subgroups, as<BR>
>indicated by the MT rules".<BR>
<BR>
Sorry, I didn't realize that you didn't know about them. I do support the<BR>
idea.<BR>
<BR>
>>Individual businesses do not have TLs. Societies have TLs. The kind of<BR>
>>sweatshop you mention could exist in a TL 3 society, but only if the<BR>
>>computer is imported. It could also exist in a TL 8 society.<BR>
><BR>
>Earlier you pointed out that tech levels were used in economic calculations,<BR>
>yet now you say that a business can't have a tech level.<BR>
<BR>
The economic rules are very broad. As you yourself have pointed out they<BR>
don't even cover the big picture very well. Expecting them to cover the<BR>
minutiae is unrealistic.<BR>
<BR>
>Say sweatshops like these are the backbones of a world's economy, and that<BR>
>computer control of the steam engines with TL8 computers increases<BR>
>production (that is, makes a definite difference with respect to the amount<BR>
>or quality of a product that may be exported). Is this world TL3, or TL8? <BR>
<BR>
If those sweatshops are the backbone of the economy then the technology is<BR>
in general use and consequently the TL is 8. <BR>
<BR>
>>No. On Earth the assembly line approach wasn't invented until long after<BR>
>>it _could_ have been. But it is still a TL 0 technique (Note: This is my<BR>
>>personal version of TL. I never said the official version was completely<BR>
>>self-consistent).<BR>
> <BR>
>Fair enough. Your version (putting "concepts" at TL0) seems even more<BR>
>arbitrary, and less useful if the person parsing the TL stat is not Hans<BR>
>Rancke-Madsen. It's a fine method, if you're Hans Rancke-Madsen, but not if<BR>
>you're Chris Seamans, or anybody else. To put it another way, what criteria<BR>
>are you using?<BR>
<BR>
Leonard put it very well in a previous discussion. TLs are TOOL levels. They<BR>
describe the level of possible tools available. If you can use a particular<BR>
technique with those tools, then the technique is that TL.<BR>
<BR>
>>That is examples. TL 4 corresponds roughly to the sort of stuff Europe had<BR>
>>during the 19th Century. TL 5 corresponds roughly to WWI, etc.<BR>
> <BR>
>I disagree with this method on many levels, since quite a few technological<BR>
>breakthroughs are conceptual, or can be passed to lower tech levels with<BR>
>little or no transference of technology. <BR>
<BR>
And that's just what _Hard Times_ claim:<BR>
<BR>
"Some technologies exist (in rudimentary form) at much lower tech levels than<BR>
their first Terran equivalents - the Imperium and its thousands of worlds<BR>
have perfected these systems at each level of capability. Given these vast<BR>
research resources - and several millenia of study - even primitive tech<BR>
levels are capable of producing some important technologies." [Hard Times,<BR>
p. 68].<BR>
<BR>
>Crop rotation significantly increases harvests, yet on your line it's tech<BR>
>level 0. Yet, a tech level 0 society that uses crop rotation, and one that<BR>
>doesn't, will be able to export different amounts of foodstuffs.<BR>
<BR>
Yeah, the economic system is very crude, isn't it? But that doesn't really<BR>
have much to do with the TL system.<BR>
<BR>
>>>The second one has problems too. China discovered many things that were<BR>
>>>integral to Europe around TL3, but much earlier. Would China be a TL1<BR>
>>>society, or a TL3 society as a result?<BR>
>><BR>
>>TL 3. It's the technologies that counts, not the dates.<BR>
> <BR>
>Fair enough. This is what I expected you to say. So, what technologies are<BR>
>integral to TL3, for example, and how does one tell a TL2 society from a TL3<BR>
>society? It isn't sufficient to point to the TL table in CT, or the "eras"<BR>
>in MT and say, "that tells the story". Some technologies are missing<BR>
>entirely, others are underepresented. Where are the lines between tech<BR>
>levels?<BR>
<BR>
Well, the system is certainly far from perfect and do include some boners,<BR>
but generally speaking, TL 2 societies have crude firearms, small cannons,<BR>
the printing press, cities canals, bridges, and roads, advanced wheels and<BR>
movable axels, crude navigation and wind and water mills while TL 3<BR>
societies have large cannons, telegraph, advanced navigation, and crude<BR>
electricity with primitive storage batteries. Some of these may not exist.<BR>
Note that I omitted medical technology because I think the MT rules gets<BR>
those all wrong. But in the OTU you'd have crude surgery in the TL 3<BR>
society and not in the TL 2.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
      Hans Rancke<BR>
University of Copenhagen<BR>
     rancke@diku.dk<BR>
- ------------<BR>
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent<BR>
         events based on the individual situation."<BR>
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 17:39:26 -0400<BR>
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca><BR>
Subject: RE: TL/Pixie<BR>
<BR>
Hans Rancke-Madsen writes:<BR>
>>>Pixie doesn't have enough men to run a starport, let alone a shipyard, even<BR>
>>>if they had gotten the facilities for free. <BR>
>>I'm not sure that I necessarily agree.  How many sophonts are required<BR>
>>to run a starport?<BR>
>A class A starport? Lots. If you'll wait until I get my copy of<BR>
>_GT:Starports_ I may be able to give you some more concrete numbers.<BR>
 <BR>
	I don't know anything about _GT:Starports_, but I have little problem<BR>
	with running a class A starport on fewer than 90 sophonts.  It's just<BR>
	not a big class A starport, and in practice does little starship<BR>
	construction.<BR>
<BR>
>>>Since the Navy use their own couriers there's no reason why a Naval Base<BR>
>>>would generate any need for an X-boat connection.<BR>
>>IMTU, the navy uses the x-boat system for most routine communications,<BR>
>>reserving special couriers for top secret/emergency messages.  YMMV.<BR>
>Ian, what you do IYTU is your own affair. What I do IMTU is mine. Frankly,<BR>
>and don't take this the wrong way, I'm not terribly interested in how you<BR>
>do things IYTU (except insofar it is something I can use in mine). And I<BR>
>don't need anybody's approval for what I do in mine. Nor do I really expect<BR>
>others to care tremendously about it. I discuss these things as a<BR>
>pleasurable interlectual exercise, and in order to make it interesting<BR>
>enough  for others to discuss it with me, I generally talk about the OTU.<BR>
>Sort of makes it easier to reach some common ground. <BR>
<BR>
	I don't really have any way to know how to determine what parts of<BR>
	MTU you might find useful, but in any event I am posting to the TML.<BR>
	Although I am responding to your posts, my posts are not solely<BR>
	posted for your benefit.  Of course, everyone else may be ignoring<BR>
	me, but that's a risk that I have to live with.<BR>
<BR>
	By the by, I own LBBs 1-5 and a couple of CT suppliments.  I recently<BR>
	received the Classic Traveller Reprints.  I know very little canon<BR>
	outside of this.  If you wish to restrict discussion to other canon,<BR>
	I am afraid that I will be somewhat limited in my ability to comment.<BR>
<BR>
>Why do you suppose that the x-boat link goes through Pixie?<BR>
>I think it is a mistake that ought to be rectified. Kinorb is supposed to be<BR>
>a retirement home for local fat cats, so I can accept that they have<BR>
>wrangled an X-boat link. But why go through Boughene and Pixie to get<BR>
>there? From Feri to Kinorb is a jump-4, so why add another two weeks to<BR>
>the communication times? Why NOT have an occasional X-boat jump directly<BR>
>from Feri to Kinorb? A well-designed X-boat network would have the main<BR>
>route goung from Regina to Roup to Efate. If Kinorb needs a link, make it<BR>
>either Roup-Feri-Kinorb or Roup-Boughene-Kinorb, depending on whether Feri<BR>
>or Boughene has the most clout. Or if both Feri and Boughene has enough<BR>
>clout to get a link, give Boughene a direct link from Roup. It is only 4<BR>
>parsecs from Roup, why delay the mail by going through Feri first?<BR>
<BR>
	Yup.  We are left with the choice of changing the x-boat route or<BR>
	making up some rationalization.  I will refrain from elaborating<BR>
	on the rationalization IMTU.<BR>
<BR>
>But no matter how you twist it, Pixie does not rate an X-boat link.<BR>
<BR>
	Well, no matter how YOU twist it, perhaps.  I can twist up a<BR>
	storm (though not everyone would find the result palatable).  :)<BR>
 <BR>
>>>There has to be a reason why the traffic is there in the first place,<BR>
>>>and there isn't. Furthermore, if the traffic WAS there and generated all<BR>
>>>that business, why isn't there more people catering to it? <BR>
>>I posted some potential trade routes through Pixie already, <BR>
>Yep, but they didn't make sense.<BR>
<BR>
	Could you be more specific?  Anyways, as I have stated earlier, the<BR>
	Traveller universe (IMHO) does not really make sense.  I like it<BR>
	just the same.  :)<BR>
<BR>
>>I think that all trade between Yorbund (?)<BR>
>My guess is that you mean Boughene.<BR>
>>...and the Dentus cluster would tend to go through Pixie, <BR>
>And my guess is that it would go directly from Boughene, since it is the<BR>
>same distance anyway. Going through Pixie would be a detour for anything<BR>
>except trade to Dentus, where it would merely be the same as going through<BR>
>Kinorb to Dentus. Of course, that's jump-3 traffic. Jump-2 traffic CAN'T<BR>
>go through Pixie without using extra tankage.<BR>
<BR>
	The world to which I was refering is farther from any world in the<BR>
	Dentus cluster than is Pixie.  I will try to remember to check<BR>
	tonight.<BR>
<BR>
>>...and trade from Moughas (?) <BR>
>You mean Menorb, right?<BR>
<BR>
	Probably, sorry about the WAGs.<BR>
<BR>
>>...to the Dentus cluster can just as easily go through Pixie as Boughene.<BR>
>Granted, but that cuts both ways. It could just as easily go through<BR>
>Boughene as Pixie. And since Boughene has 630,000 people working for<BR>
>the starport authority [that's an awful lot, isn't it?] and Pixie has<BR>
>at most 90, something suggests that it does go through Boughene.<BR>
<BR>
	I assume that the 630,000 figure is some sort of canon?  IMTU (for<BR>
	anyone who cares) it would take a very large starport indeed to<BR>
	employ that many sophonts.  In any event, the smaller starport on<BR>
	Pixie suggests to me that much less traffic goes that way.<BR>
<BR>
>>There might also be some traffic to the Vargr extents, could some of it be<BR>
>>going through Pixie?<BR>
>Yres is more likely.<BR>
<BR>
	Yres, how does one get from Yres to Dentus?<BR>
<BR>
>>Anyways, I don't need a lot of traffic, in fact I don't want too much, just<BR>
>>enough to keep 90 colonists busy.<BR>
>Ah, I was wondering if you'd reply to that point. The traffic to keep 90<BR>
>people busy isn't enough to keep a Class A starport open. Class A starports<BR>
>are BIG. Why, you can even have starships constructed at them.<BR>
<BR>
	We've been through this before, so I will not reiterate my view of the<BR>
	starport on Pixie.  I guess that we will have to agree to disagree.<BR>
<BR>
Peez<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 14:40:09 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: G:T - Suitability of Brilliant Lances & Battle Rider<BR>
<BR>
>From: Kristian Miller <travellerne@3rd-imperium.com><BR>
<BR>
>Brilliant Lances!  Super detailed, precise and very <BR>
>boardgamey.  Maybe Glenn and Luther could pipe in as we have <BR>
>played BL the past several months...<BR>
<BR>
Not having played GURPS, I can't comment on BL's utility as<BR>
chrome for GURPS.  BL is indeed extremely detailed.  Each ship<BR>
gets a page of information with boxes to mark off as each item<BR>
or system takes damage (even damage to staterooms and the hold).<BR>
 It's great for resolving combat with a typical ship full of<BR>
PCs, but has too much detail for actions involving several<BR>
ships.  It feels kind of close to Mayday.  There is more record<BR>
keeping, but I always added a lot of record keeping and detail<BR>
to Mayday when I used it in role-playing games.<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.<BR>
http://im.yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 16:45:20 -0500<BR>
From: tim@premier.net<BR>
Subject: re: Wars within the Imperium<BR>
<BR>
Dom asked<BR>
> <BR>
> BTW I'm confused by your use of 'hegemony' here. My OED defines it as <BR>
> "Leadership. predominance of one state of a confederacy, orig. <BR>
> Ancient Greece". Is there another meaning, or does North American <BR>
> English use it differently to British English? (Not a troll, a <BR>
> serious question).<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
My 2000 edation of Dictionary of Human Geography defines <BR>
Hegemony as:<BR>
<BR>
dominant representations and practices of elits and power blocs <BR>
who maintain the 'dominate story line' that help to consolidate <BR>
existing relations of power.  ie the power that sets the prevailing <BR>
rules of the game.  This is just the main point of the article if you <BR>
want more ask.<BR>
<BR>
examples of Hegemony<BR>
<BR>
British 19th  early 20th century<BR>
US early 20th century to present <BR>
TML Doug Berry : )<BR>
Traveller 3I <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Tim Reynolds<BR>
tim@premier.net <BR>
225-334-5063<BR>
- ------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
Getting an education was a bit like a communicable <BR>
sexual disease.  It made you unsuitable for <BR>
a lot of jobs and then you had the urge to pass it on.<BR>
<BR>
Terry Pratchett <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 16:48:00 -0500<BR>
From: tim@premier.net<BR>
Subject: I apologize<BR>
<BR>
I also have to apologize for the double sending of Forine history, <BR>
my line got broken and I wasn't sure what happen to the message <BR>
so I sent it again.<BR>
Tim Reynolds<BR>
tim@premier.net <BR>
225-334-5063<BR>
- ------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
Getting an education was a bit like a communicable <BR>
sexual disease.  It made you unsuitable for <BR>
a lot of jobs and then you had the urge to pass it on.<BR>
<BR>
Terry Pratchett <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 14:45:36<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Idle Traveller Musings<BR>
<BR>
At 02:27 PM 4/10/2000 -0700, you wrote:<BR>
>From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
><BR>
>>Stalin without the murderous rage and paranoia.  Uncle Josef <BR>
>>could be a great guy, fun loving and smiling, but able to focus<BR>
>>*completely* upon a problem or task.<BR>
><BR>
>No meetings starting at midnight, either, I should think, nor<BR>
>would Norris have written in the margins of a biography of Ivan<BR>
>the Terrible, "teacher teacher teacher."<BR>
<BR>
i don't know, I can see Norris as the kind og guy to fly into his office in<BR>
a bathrobe shouting "get the Economic Council in here now!"<BR>
<BR>
Maybe not Ivan, but Machivelli?<BR>
<BR>
>Complete focus is indicated by Arrival: Vengeance.  Are there<BR>
>any other canonical meetings with Norris?<BR>
<BR>
MegaTraveller Journal #2.  A brief interview with Norris.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 16:55:45 -0500<BR>
From: Bill Dunn <bdunn@epicsystems.com><BR>
Subject: re: Wars within the Imperium<BR>
<BR>
The American Heritage English Dictionary defines hegemony as "the<BR>
predominant influence of one state over others". No requirement for<BR>
confederacy. That's pretty much the standard definition floated about<BR>
political science. So, yes. There are different definitions of hegemony<BR>
floating around.<BR>
Interesting the use of Britain as an example. I won't get into discussions<BR>
about fighting for sheep (too easy a joke there), but Britain does have<BR>
ongoing territorial disputes with 2 fellow members in the European Community<BR>
(Spain and Ireland, although I guess the Irish question with respect to the<BR>
Republic has been effectively settled). The EC would never countenance an<BR>
outbreak of hostilities but the occasional political posturing is tolerated.<BR>
<BR>
But then that's the difference between a community limited in geographical<BR>
area, with close borders, and the memory of a horrible war at its founding<BR>
compared to a many-parsec-spanning Imperium. The increased distance of the<BR>
Imperial government in both authority and literal distance provides member<BR>
states the freedom to engage in intramural warfare. I'm not really saying<BR>
it's an intelligent policy (citizens blowing each other away and all) but<BR>
stepping in isn't always practical on that scale. So I guess it could be<BR>
simply a pragmatic approach to trying to administer an interstellar<BR>
community of thousands of worlds.<BR>
<BR>
And back off topic: About the Falklands-Malvinas, in the end I have to say<BR>
that despite the fact that the British got very lucky and could have<BR>
suffered a great deal more for a minor territorial objective (bet they're<BR>
happy the French held up that last shipment of Exocets), they did hasten the<BR>
fall of the Argentinian generals. And that ain't bad...<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 20:30:10 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: re: Wars within the Imperium<BR>
<snip><BR>
<BR>
And there is the small fact that the Falkland Islanders are British <BR>
Subjects, with British passports (albeit that good old Maggie was <BR>
trying to get rid of this at the time) so we weren't so much <BR>
'asserting hegemony' as liberating our own.<BR>
<snip><BR>
<BR>
BTW I'm confused by your use of 'hegemony' here. My OED defines it as <BR>
"Leadership. predominance of one state of a confederacy, orig. <BR>
Ancient Greece". Is there another meaning, or does North American <BR>
English use it differently to British English? (Not a troll, a <BR>
serious question).<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 19:34:22 +0100<BR>
From: "Nick Bradbeer" <nickb@ndirect.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: Scale in Space<BR>
<BR>
>Thanks Bill, that's a good point.  What do you think is a reasonable<BR>
>timeframe for repairs?  I wonder what kinds of repairs modern warship crews<BR>
>can do in combat?  I suppose firefighting and pumping water out might be<BR>
>the extent of it.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
In full-blown combat (rare as that is these days), not a great deal. As you<BR>
say, it really is a case of firefighting, flooding and first aid.<BR>
<BR>
The priorities of damage control are (perhaps obviously) to limit the<BR>
effects of damage, rather than to affect lasting repairs. Teams will attempt<BR>
to arrest flooding (by the space age hammer-and-wedges method) to a level<BR>
the pumps can cope with, or failing that to seal off flooded compartments<BR>
entirely. Fires must be put out as quickly as possible to minimuse further<BR>
damage, and injured crew members will require urgent medical attention.<BR>
<BR>
Loss of ship systems probably won't be fixable in combat, although it may be<BR>
possible to work some sort of repair quite quickly once out of combat<BR>
(replacing LRUs, jury-rigging power or steam supplies and the like).<BR>
<BR>
Nick<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 21:17:32 +0100<BR>
From: "Nick Bradbeer" <nickb@ndirect.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: Vaya Con Dios class ship<BR>
<BR>
>Note that the F21-2 uses computers (non-fiber optic) that are _far_ from<BR>
>State of the Art for TL-15.  The difference in cost is considerable<BR>
<BR>
This does seem to be one of the big improvements under FFS2.<BR>
<BR>
>1.  The F21-series maximaizes profitability under T4 rules by using<BR>
<BR>
<SNIP><BR>
Yah, I read your design notes. Sure, it's minimaxed, but it's minimaxed<BR>
*well*. I can respect that.<BR>
<BR>
>Did you download the F21-series spreadsheets from my site?<BR>
Tried, but the zipfile was corrupt. Don't worry - I'll take your word for it<BR>
that it can be done.<BR>
<BR>
Hmm.....two weeks ago I bought the T4 rulebook. My first reaction was<BR>
annoyance, stemming from the blank pages right through the combat section,<BR>
the really dodgy illustrations (the Foss ones, that is - the Elmore work is<BR>
excellent) and the apparent lack of proofreading. But once I'd got over that<BR>
I found a game system which I actually love.<BR>
<BR>
Sure, I've heard a lot of bad things said about T4 over the years, and many<BR>
of those I can quite believe are justified (mainly those concerning the<BR>
product quality). But in spite of it all, there's a lot going for the game.<BR>
If it hadn't been for the problems on the business end of the game, I think<BR>
it could have been a great.<BR>
<BR>
Anyway, having discovered all that, and downloading the Akins spreadsheet, I<BR>
seem to be falling in love with FFS2. Hmm....wonder where I can get a copy.<BR>
<BR>
Nick<BR>
+++<BR>
I sense some TNE heresy coming on. Eris - can I borrow your hat?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2288<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2289</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
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Traveller-digest       Monday, April 10 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2289<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: PIII Software<BR>
Damage Control<BR>
Re: Running A Sci-Fi Campaign<BR>
Re: I don't like Mondays (was re: Supernova)<BR>
Re: That pesky TL definition<BR>
[BITS] Website Update - 10 April 2000<BR>
RE: Distances (OT)<BR>
RE: [BITS] Website Update - 10 April 2000<BR>
Peter Newman's Traveller Universe<BR>
Re: Smart weapons<BR>
Re: Basic Economics (was Re: Astronomy in the 57th Century)<BR>
re: Wars within the Imperium<BR>
re: Wars within the Imperium<BR>
Re: Maps of the Imperium site gone?<BR>
Re: Peter's view of Traveller (was re: various) LONG<BR>
RE: The Imperium and the 20th Century - Perfect together?<BR>
Re: Far Frontiers Sector Data?<BR>
RE: Just what is TL?<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 21:20:12 +0100<BR>
From: "Nick Bradbeer" <nickb@ndirect.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: PIII Software<BR>
<BR>
>    Planet III Software is now located at:<BR>
><BR>
>http://www.downport.com/hiwg/software/ibm/p3/<BR>
><BR>
>    It's currently a 5.5meg download. It'll be broken up later on and the<BR>
>extra calculator software will get added.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Coolness.<BR>
<BR>
Sadly I won't be able to download it until I get back to uni - my backwoods<BR>
home connection will take about an hour and a half to crunch 5 megs - but I<BR>
can't wait to grab it.<BR>
<BR>
Cheers<BR>
Nick<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 18:15:32 EDT<BR>
From: Damage169@cs.com<BR>
Subject: Damage Control<BR>
<BR>
Dale Gyles writes:<BR>
<BR>
> Thanks Bill, that's a good point.  What do you think is a reasonable<BR>
>  timeframe for repairs?  I wonder what kinds of repairs modern warship crews<BR>
>  can do in combat?  I suppose firefighting and pumping water out might be<BR>
>  the extent of it.<BR>
>  <BR>
<BR>
Damage control (DC) parties are routinely trained to deal with the following: <BR>
Firefighting, pumping water, evacuating casualties and remanning duty <BR>
stations (especially weapons, steering and propulsion controls), repairing <BR>
hull breaches, strengthening bulkheads near hull breaches, repairing <BR>
electrical and electronic cable runs, repairing conduits/pipes (both air and <BR>
fluids), repairing weapons (limited) and weapon reload systems, reload <BR>
depleted magazines (especially PDF mags).<BR>
<BR>
Many of the weapon-related duties are normally dealt with by gunner's mates <BR>
and missile techs, but DC personnel need to know how to do at least the <BR>
basics, just in case. After all, the sole mission of the DC system is to keep <BR>
the ship afloat and combat-ready. Not much will change in this regard once <BR>
people start the Diaspora.<BR>
<BR>
Doug G.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 00:04:26 +0200<BR>
From: Jens Rydholm <jenry023@student.liu.se><BR>
Subject: Re: Running A Sci-Fi Campaign<BR>
<BR>
Jason Kemp wrote:<BR>
> I'm a GM desperately looking for advice to improve his ability to run <BR>
> Sci-Fi campaigns. For some reason, I think I'm missing some critical <BR>
> point, because most of my SF games tend to end rather quickly, unlike <BR>
> my fantasy or World of Darkness games.<BR>
<BR>
I recognize the problem (being mostly a fantasy and WoD GM myself), but I<BR>
think I know some of the reasons for it. Other reasons than those below have<BR>
been given in earlier posts.<BR>
<BR>
The players might not have a clear idea of the universe works. If you suspect<BR>
this to be the case, prepare handouts (about Aliens, Technology, social groups,<BR>
history). These should not be extremely long, just long enough to explain the<BR>
core concepts.<BR>
<BR>
You may have tried to run a too open-ended game. Try to limit the story a<BR>
bit (around a specific star, a specific corporation, etc), or give the<BR>
characters personal intrigues (long lost brother, outlaw with a false identity,<BR>
etc).<BR>
<BR>
The campaign may be too limited. Try making it a bit more open ended. If you<BR>
have a core story you want to tell, insert small stories that do not have<BR>
anything to do with the main story every now and then.<BR>
<BR>
The players might be uncomfortable and/or unfamiliar with the system. Either<BR>
change some parts of the rules, or run a few "test runs" (that really don't<BR>
happen) of critical parts (a combat, some starship action, etc).<BR>
<BR>
The type of stories that you tell in SF environments might differ from the ones<BR>
you tell in fantasy and/or WoD. If this is the problem, try to tell similiar<BR>
stories in SF. It is nowhere near as hard as it seems. Just for fun, compare<BR>
Star Wars with a typical fantasy story. Farmer boy faces problems at home,<BR>
meets old wizard, heads off to a life of adventure, joins heroic army...<BR>
<BR>
In general, talk to your players about the problem. Try to find out what it is<BR>
with the system and/or stories that they do not like. Work out those problems<BR>
together with your players, then try again.<BR>
<BR>
At least that is what I will do. My first Traveller campaign collapsed. I ran a<BR>
second one with other players, and now I am about to start a new one with (more<BR>
or less) the same players as the first one.<BR>
<BR>
If you care to, you can have a look at the notes on my homepage (URL below,<BR>
click on Traveller). They are far from finished, but they contain some<BR>
background information, among other things. I had the "understanding the<BR>
universe" problem...<BR>
<BR>
+--------------------------------------+---------------------------------------+<BR>
|                                      |                                       |<BR>
| Name: Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm       | By receiving this message, you do NOT |<BR>
| Mail: jenry023@student.liu.se        | receive the right to use my address   |<BR>
| Home: http://m227.ryd.student.liu.se | for advertisement purposes. Doing so  |<BR>
| ICQ#: 3844745                        | will be punished by public flogging.  |<BR>
|                                      |                                       |<BR>
+--------------------------------------+---------------------------------------+<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 23:13:11 +0100<BR>
From: "Nick Bradbeer" <nickb@ndirect.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: I don't like Mondays (was re: Supernova)<BR>
<BR>
>I guess it is an understatement. Then again, I'm on the East Coast. She was<BR>
>16 or 17 in 79, that would put her at 37 or maybe 38 now.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
I'm sure she won't do it again. Twenty years is a long time to think about<BR>
her crime.<BR>
<BR>
In her shoes I'm not sure which I'd rather have to endure - prison, or the<BR>
public (and press) after release.<BR>
<BR>
Nick<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 00:29:46 +0200 (METDST)<BR>
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk><BR>
Subject: Re: That pesky TL definition<BR>
<BR>
Chris Seamans writes:<BR>
<BR>
>Hans Rancke-Madsen says:<BR>
> <BR>
>>And the lack of ability to maintain and repair TL 10 equipment demonstrates<BR>
>>that TL 10 equipment is not common in that society. <BR>
> <BR>
>This is only if tech level is mainly indicative of what may be found or<BR>
>bought on a planet. If it's a measure of mainly what can be manufactured,<BR>
>it's perfectly in keeping with this system. However, the "official"<BR>
>definition says that it's what is in general use, can be maintained, can be<BR>
>manufactured locally and what the player characters may buy.<BR>
> <BR>
>In short, there are a number of elements which are tangled up:<BR>
<BR>
Sure, and my position is that they are not mutually compatible. If a society<BR>
could be TL X even while routinely buying large quantities of TL X+Y<BR>
equipment, then such a society would have the ability to repair and<BR>
maintain TL X+Y equipment even though it only built TL X equipment.<BR>
<BR>
>What is in general use is not always indicative of what is manufactured<BR>
>locally.<BR>
<BR>
Precisely the point I have been making.<BR>
<BR>
>What can be maintained may be at odds with what is in general use, or may be<BR>
>manufactured. <BR>
<BR>
Here I disagree. If something repairable is in common use, people will learn<BR>
to repair it.<BR>
<BR>
>The "tinkering", or "hacking" element. Automobiles may not be in general use,<BR>
>but a mechanic may be able to maintain automobiles with little or no formal<BR>
>training. Clocks may not be in general use, but a tinker may be able to<BR>
>maintain and repair watches, and so on. <BR>
<BR>
Yeah, but that are all examples of being able to maintain equipment that is<BR>
uncommon. You can't argue the other way. You don't have common equipment<BR>
without people who can maintain it.<BR>
<BR>
>>>Please note that, as part of that description, it is stated that local<BR>
>>>businesses or organizations might import things of a different tech level.<BR>
>><BR>
>>Sure. But it doesn't say that they do so in quantity. I would expect a<BR>
>>company that imports equipment above the local TL to have to import<BR>
>>spare parts and mechanics too. Whereas any equipment, imported or not,<BR>
>>that is of the local TL can be maintained by the locals.<BR>
> <BR>
>It also doesn't say that they *don't* import them in quantity.<BR>
<BR>
No, but it does say that the ability to maintain such equpiment is not<BR>
readily available. So I conclude that the easiest way to resolve this is<BR>
to say that such equipment is not common.<BR>
<BR>
>What else can tech level, as you've defined it above, do?<BR>
<BR>
It gives a feel for what tools are available and thus what techniques MAY be<BR>
in use. That gives the GM a framework for working out the society. I'm not<BR>
sure what else you require.<BR>
<BR>
>>>It says absolutely nothing about what worlds may import things from<BR>
>>>another world, or what might be exported by the planet.<BR>
>><BR>
>>Yes it does. Both imports and exports are limited by the local TL. Not<BR>
>>completely, of course, but if the majority of the stuff used on a planet<BR>
>>is of a given TL, they either import raw material and build it themselves<BR>
>>or export raw material and buy it.<BR>
> <BR>
>No. Tech level as you've defined it says absolutely nothing about whether or<BR>
>not a world imports or exports technology, merely that the world *uses*<BR>
>technology of a specific level.<BR>
<BR>
But there's only two ways to get any piece of technology. You either build it<BR>
or buy it. So a TL 5 society either builds or buys (or both ;-) TL 5 stuff.<BR>
<BR>
>Transportation costs *don't* generally add much to the cost of goods. You're<BR>
>not just paying transportation costs, however. You're paying for the<BR>
>distribution network, the accountants, the lawyers, the life insurance, the<BR>
>private armies and hundreds of other costs that interstellar corporations<BR>
>have to pay. You may or may not have to pay these costs at the world of<BR>
>origin of a manufactured product.<BR>
<BR>
I didn't pick up on it at the time, but in a previous post I pointed out that<BR>
Tl couldn't always be the level of what was manufactured locally, because<BR>
some worlds had too few people to produce a balanced array of goods at that<BR>
TL and you replied that maybe didn't need to manufacture a balanced array,<BR>
they could stick to manufacturing some things and import the rest. Why is<BR>
this feasible when you maintain that a world can't manufacture nothing and<BR>
import every manufactured item they use? If you think Heya can manufacture<BR>
TL 5 stuff and swap it for TL 10 equipment, why can't they grow food and<BR>
hunt for furs and swap it for TL 5 equipment? Or build TL 5 equipment and<BR>
swap it for other TL 5 equipment, for that matter.<BR>
<BR>
>>>Alternately, if a world exports high-tech devices, they might be cheaper.<BR>
>><BR>
>>No, if a high-tech factory is producing high-tech goods for export, the<BR>
>>locals will have to pay the same (less transportation costs) for them as<BR>
>>the manufacturer can sell them for on any other market.<BR>
> <BR>
>Simply not true in the real world, and I don't see why this would be the<BR>
>case in the fantasy world of the Imperium. This is not the way that<BR>
>businesses work. They exist to make money. Hence, they will raise prices to<BR>
>make money. Like I said, I'm not as familiar with the Far Trader system as<BR>
>I'd like to be. I don't know if it was intended to map large scale importing<BR>
>and exporting of products.<BR>
<BR>
I do know that if a company can sell a laser rifle manufactured on a TL 5<BR>
worlds for 1000 local credits on Rhylanor, then they will want 4,000 local<BR>
credits for it if they sell it locally (assuming the local exchange rate<BR>
is 0.25). With a suitable reduction to account for the savings in<BR>
transportation costs.<BR>
 <BR>
>>The words 'in quantity' is the key here. If you want to introduce a few<BR>
>>high-tech pimples on a low-tech world, go ahead. As long as the goods<BR>
>>manufactured there isn't used by the locals, visiting PCs are unlikely to<BR>
>>care or even know that it is there.<BR>
> <BR>
>It is key here, but there is no yardstick to measure "in quantity". How many<BR>
>TL12 tractors does Heya have to import to be considered TL12? <BR>
<BR>
Enough to create a TL 12 service industry. If a visiting PC can easily find<BR>
someone to repair their TL 12 grav vehicle and their TL 12 laser rifle and <BR>
their TL 12 coffee pot, then the society is TL 12. If they have to track<BR>
a tractor repair man and convince him to help them and can't find anyone<BR>
to help with the rifle, then it isn't TL 12.<BR>
<BR>
>This is what I've been asking from the beginning, and I have yet to see an<BR>
>answer that deals with the issue in a consistent fashion. Is tech level an<BR>
>indicator of the highest level of technology in general use? If so, what<BR>
>constitutes "general use"?<BR>
<BR>
This is a newly minted idea, so I offer it with some reservation, but I'd<BR>
say the existence of a versatile service industry.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
      Hans Rancke<BR>
University of Copenhagen<BR>
     rancke@diku.dk<BR>
- ------------<BR>
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent<BR>
         events based on the individual situation."<BR>
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 23:36:12 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: [BITS] Website Update - 10 April 2000<BR>
<BR>
BITS - British Isles Traveller Support<BR>
http://www.bits.org.uk/<BR>
<BR>
Well, the website has had a spring clean. You'll find a few products <BR>
have Travelled to the discontinued section (The Long Way Home, the <BR>
badges, T Shirts and mouse mats from the promotional specials we did) <BR>
but in their place you'll find a few additions.<BR>
<BR>
The graphics for 'SpaceDogs' and 'The Khiidkar Incident' have been <BR>
cleaned up so you can get a better idea of the covers, and <BR>
'SpaceDogs' now links to Vision Forge Graphics.<BR>
<BR>
The Products page now has a link to more details about 'At Close <BR>
Quarters', the Traveller Combat Supplement written for Marc Miller's <BR>
Traveller (may be used with other rules editions with a little work) <BR>
by the TML's very own Doug Berry and James Lindsay. Have a look at <BR>
the new cover art and let us know what you think!<BR>
<BR>
Publisher's statement: We would like to reassure the reader that no <BR>
penguins were harmed during the development of this product.<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
BITS Webmaster<BR>
<BR>
- -------------Dom Mooney---webmaster@bits.org.uk----------------<BR>
                  BITS - British Isles Traveller Support.<BR>
  http://www.bits.org.uk/              mailto:bits@bits.org.uk<BR>
Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
GURPS is a registered trademark of Steve Jackson Games, Inc.<BR>
BITS and CORE are trademarks of BITS UK Limited.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 16:48:27 -0600<BR>
From: Jason Postma <JasonP@i-link.net><BR>
Subject: RE: Distances (OT)<BR>
<BR>
I don't think we care what nationality they were, we Utahns got to claim<BR>
that the world speed record was broken in our state (again).<BR>
<BR>
By the way, Area 51 is really in Utah, not Nevada.  You can tell, because<BR>
that white desert Wil Smith walks across in "Independance Day" is the Salt<BR>
Flats out west of the Great Salt Lake.<BR>
<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
From: Bruce Johnson [mailto:johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu]<BR>
Sent: Monday, April 10, 2000 2:22 PM<BR>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Distances (OT)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Jason Postma wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> The Great Salt Lake isn't much of an ocean.  Sure it's big, but it's not<BR>
> very deep, nothing lives in it except brine shrimp, and it stinks pretty<BR>
bad<BR>
> when compared to the ocean.  If your Brit friends don't mind those<BR>
> differences - sure, send 'em on over.  We could use the tourist dollars.<BR>
> They can stick around to ski.<BR>
<BR>
Hey HEY HEY! <BR>
<BR>
The _last_ time we sent some Brits to Salt Lake they took the world land<BR>
speed record from us....<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Bruce Johnson<BR>
University of Arizona<BR>
College of Pharmacy<BR>
Information Technology Group<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 16:06:35 -0700<BR>
From: Jesse DeGraff <jdegraff@pacbell.net><BR>
Subject: RE: [BITS] Website Update - 10 April 2000<BR>
<BR>
Andy and Sarah posing again, eh?  :)  Unfortunately, the cover image isn't<BR>
big enough to see (as a prop-maker myself) what they're useing :\<BR>
<BR>
As a weird side-note, when I finally got my copy of "Starports", I noticed<BR>
that it looks like *somebody* at SJG did a head-replacement or addition on<BR>
Sarah!  I think I can see why, but I wish they'd asked or told me about it<BR>
instead of me finding it.  Almost looks like all they did was copy Andy's<BR>
head, flip it horizontally, and re-color the hair blonde.  Oh well.<BR>
<BR>
Best,<BR>
Jesse<BR>
<BR>
> BITS - British Isles Traveller Support<BR>
> http://www.bits.org.uk/<BR>
><BR>
> Well, the website has had a spring clean. You'll find a few products<BR>
> have Travelled to the discontinued section (The Long Way Home, the<BR>
> badges, T Shirts and mouse mats from the promotional specials we did)<BR>
> but in their place you'll find a few additions.<BR>
><BR>
> The graphics for 'SpaceDogs' and 'The Khiidkar Incident' have been<BR>
> cleaned up so you can get a better idea of the covers, and<BR>
> 'SpaceDogs' now links to Vision Forge Graphics.<BR>
><BR>
> The Products page now has a link to more details about 'At Close<BR>
> Quarters', the Traveller Combat Supplement written for Marc Miller's<BR>
> Traveller (may be used with other rules editions with a little work)<BR>
> by the TML's very own Doug Berry and James Lindsay. Have a look at<BR>
> the new cover art and let us know what you think!<BR>
><BR>
> Publisher's statement: We would like to reassure the reader that no<BR>
> penguins were harmed during the development of this product.<BR>
><BR>
> Dom<BR>
> BITS Webmaster<BR>
><BR>
> -------------Dom Mooney---webmaster@bits.org.uk----------------<BR>
>                   BITS - British Isles Traveller Support.<BR>
>   http://www.bits.org.uk/              mailto:bits@bits.org.uk<BR>
> Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
> GURPS is a registered trademark of Steve Jackson Games, Inc.<BR>
> BITS and CORE are trademarks of BITS UK Limited.<BR>
> All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 17:15:59 -0600<BR>
From: Jason Postma <JasonP@i-link.net><BR>
Subject: Peter Newman's Traveller Universe<BR>
<BR>
Hmph, when someone mentioned that the list has been relatively quiet<BR>
recently, they were telling the truth.  This weekend the battle cry was<BR>
"Flame On!"<BR>
<BR>
I, like many others, think Peter is misinterpreting the statement in the MT<BR>
encyclopedia.  He's reading it as "the following are THE standard designs"<BR>
when it just says "the following ARE standard designs."<BR>
<BR>
This doesn't make him a troll, however (if I'm getting the right idea of how<BR>
it's used on the TML), and neither do his statements about what is written<BR>
in the MT rulebooks.<BR>
If the rulebooks don't say anything about Referees improvising, then they<BR>
don't.  I think many people missed where he said that he didn't necessarily<BR>
agree with this philosophy - he just finds it a valid interpretation.  He<BR>
isn't talking about what should have been in there, or what the author's<BR>
intent is, he's talking about what IS there.<BR>
You can bet that I'm going to look for the type of "free reign rules<BR>
interpretation statement" in my MT library that appears in just about every<BR>
other RPG out there.  I have no doubt that this was the sentiment of the<BR>
writers of MT, but the TML has not yet produced evidence that this idea<BR>
appears in the MT rules anywhere, so Peter's position is relatively secure<BR>
at the moment.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 16:24:05 -0700<BR>
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Smart weapons<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
> Of course, once the folks on the street find out whether it's the ring<BR>
> or wristband or <whatever> that enables firing, they'll just take that<BR>
> after disarming the officer.<BR>
<BR>
nah, they'll just start _dis_arming them...from behind, with a machete,<BR>
if they're that desperate.<BR>
<BR>
Minds me of a recent newsblurb my wife and I saw about biometric ID<BR>
systems. They were discussing the latest series of euye scanners, which<BR>
use iris pattern recgnition, and the newsdroid mentioned how they were<BR>
impossible to spoof (of course she didn't _use_ the word 'spoof'.)<BR>
<BR>
Alison and I turned around and simultaneously said 'On a steeek!' ;-)<BR>
<BR>
(referring of course, to Wesley Snipe's innovative way of getting<BR>
through such a lock in "Demolition Man")<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Bruce Johnson<BR>
University of Arizona<BR>
College of Pharmacy<BR>
Information Technology Group<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 18:22:07 -0500<BR>
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Basic Economics (was Re: Astronomy in the 57th Century)<BR>
<BR>
"Douglas E. Berry" wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> At 03:35 PM 4/10/2000 -0400, you wrote:<BR>
> ><BR>
> ><BR>
> >Peter Newman wrote:<BR>
> ><BR>
> >> If you read a sentence which said "Standard US cars are manufactured<BR>
> >> by GM, Ford and Chrysler." wouldn't you interpret this statement<BR>
> >> as explicitly excluding other manufacturer's cars from being<BR>
> >> standard?<BR>
> ><BR>
> >Then who manufacturers the Automatic cars?<BR>
> <BR>
> Stick to the point, and stop trying to shift gears.<BR>
<BR>
Doug, it's always good to know that we can count on you in the clutch.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 00:22:56 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: re: Wars within the Imperium<BR>
<BR>
>At 17:59 -0400 10/4/00, Bill Dunn <bdunn@epicsystems.com><BR>
>The American Heritage English Dictionary defines hegemony as "the<BR>
>predominant influence of one state over others". No requirement for<BR>
>confederacy. That's pretty much the standard definition floated about<BR>
>political science. So, yes. There are different definitions of hegemony<BR>
>floating around.<BR>
<BR>
Thanks.<BR>
><BR>
>Interesting the use of Britain as an example. I won't get into discussions<BR>
>about fighting for sheep (too easy a joke there), but Britain does have<BR>
>ongoing territorial disputes with 2 fellow members in the European Community<BR>
>(Spain and Ireland, although I guess the Irish question with respect to the<BR>
>Republic has been effectively settled). The EC would never countenance an<BR>
>outbreak of hostilities but the occasional political posturing is tolerated.<BR>
<BR>
Yep, the Irish Government has removed the clause claiming the North <BR>
IIRC with the Good Friday Agreement. Assuming that holds and the <BR>
political <expletive deleted>s don't go and throw it all away.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 00:19:43 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: re: Wars within the Imperium<BR>
<BR>
At 17:59 -0400 10/4/00, tim@premier.net wrote:<BR>
>My 2000 edation of Dictionary of Human Geography defines<BR>
>Hegemony as:<BR>
><BR>
>dominant representations and practices of elits and power blocs<BR>
>who maintain the 'dominate story line' that help to consolidate<BR>
>existing relations of power.  ie the power that sets the prevailing<BR>
>rules of the game.  This is just the main point of the article if you<BR>
>want more ask.<BR>
<BR>
Thanks! That puts it better into context.<BR>
<BR>
>British 19th  early 20th century<BR>
>US early 20th century to present<BR>
>TML Doug Berry : )<BR>
>Traveller 3I<BR>
<BR>
;-)<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 00:14:15 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Maps of the Imperium site gone?<BR>
<BR>
At 17:27 -0400 10/4/00, owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com <BR>
(Traveller-diges wrote:<BR>
>Yes, its gone.  It was apparently disabled (for reasons which are unknown to<BR>
>me) and I decided to delete the site.  If there's anyone willing to host the<BR>
>files, I'd like to make them available again.<BR>
<BR>
BITS will happily host them, although I suspect Downport or Freelance <BR>
Traveller have beaten me to the offer.<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 19:26:43 EDT<BR>
From: Qstor@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Peter's view of Traveller (was re: various) LONG<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 4/10/00 2:47:28 AM Eastern Daylight Time, <BR>
stevedaniels@portcaddo.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<< Can we argue instead about whether the US Constitution should<BR>
 be interpreted strictly referring only to 'framer's intent', or more<BR>
 liberally referring the world today?<BR>
 <BR>
 bloo >><BR>
Whatever the late William Brennan would have wanted is fine by me :)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 17:29:41 -0600<BR>
From: Jason Postma <JasonP@i-link.net><BR>
Subject: RE: The Imperium and the 20th Century - Perfect together?<BR>
<BR>
Well, If I have the last word, I had best be careful in what I write.<BR>
<BR>
My position, in brief:<BR>
<BR>
The Third Impeium, as described by published Traveller material, is not as<BR>
remote from late 20th century society and culture as could be resonably<BR>
expected, given the fact that it is set in a time period 3000 years in our<BR>
future.<BR>
I hypothesize that it was the intent of the writers of Traveller to present<BR>
a recognizable society for player characters to be a part of in order to<BR>
contrast the various truly alien cultures and mindsets the players may<BR>
encounter in their adventures.  Therefore the characters could always "go<BR>
home" to more familiar settings after dealing with alien societies (not<BR>
necessarily non-human - I mean societies alien to western 20th century<BR>
thought).<BR>
Some of the Third Imperium's customs and structure does appear vastly<BR>
different from that of our own culture (there is a hereditary nobility in<BR>
place, there is no representative government, wars between member worlds are<BR>
acceptable), but I maintain that the practical differences are few enough to<BR>
allow 20th-century players to consider the 3I "home," and that most cultural<BR>
values resemble those of our own culture.<BR>
<BR>
I suppose that's the end of the thread.<BR>
<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
From: Chris Seamans [mailto:semo@pil.net]<BR>
Sent: Friday, April 07, 2000 5:29 PM<BR>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Subject: RE: The Imperium and the 20th Century - Perfect together?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Okay. This is my last post on the subject. I simply don't have the time to<BR>
keep up with the thread. This message seems to pretty much sum up my opinion<BR>
on the matter of how dissimilar the Imperium is from 20th century America.<BR>
It would appear that, for the most part, you've already decided that the<BR>
Imperium is functionally the same as the Imperium of the far future. I<BR>
disagree as strongly as ever, for a more detailed rationale of this, see my<BR>
"box" examples below.<BR>
<BR>
It's been fun, Jason. :)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 18:54:55 -0500<BR>
From: "D. Smart" <dsmart@imagin.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Far Frontiers Sector Data?<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> I have a copy of the manuscript for the Far Frontiers Sector supplement,<BR>
> which was never published.  Is there a particular world or subsector you are<BR>
> looking for, or were you looking for a complete set?<BR>
><BR>
> BTW, is there any interest in seeing this stuff get published?  Print or<BR>
> electronic?<BR>
<BR>
Yes! I'd *love* a copy of this!<BR>
<BR>
David<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 20:03:01 -0400<BR>
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net><BR>
Subject: RE: Just what is TL?<BR>
<BR>
Hey Hans, I think we'll just have to agree to disagree here. I don't like<BR>
the way that the discussion has been turning. I now have a considerably<BR>
better understanding of Hans' theory of tech levels... and it seems to be<BR>
useful, if you happen to be Hans Rancke-Madsen. :)<BR>
<BR>
I'd just like to clear a few things up:<BR>
<BR>
>I said hydrography score. A score of 5 indicates a range wherein the<BR>
>hydrographic percentage can fall, in this case 45 to 54. A TL of 5<BR>
>indicates a range wherein the local technology can fall.<BR>
<BR>
I understood what you said. I was using what happened to be nearby, CT Book<BR>
3. In this book the digit referring to planetary hydrographics is referred<BR>
to "Hydrographic Percentage".<BR>
<BR>
>You have to explain what definition of TL you are using. Obviously it isn't<BR>
>the official one, since the definintion of TL 2 heavy military technology<BR>
>is the ability to make small cannon (with TL 3 being defined by big<BR>
cannons).<BR>
>Please note that I'm not critizing you. I just don't know what you mean<BR>
when<BR>
>you say TL 1.<BR>
<BR>
I was indicating that the bronze working techniques at TL 1 were sufficient<BR>
to create the cannon itself.<BR>
<BR>
>Well, I don't know how subtle it is, but you seem to be missing it. It's<BR>
>the concepts 'in quantity' and 'in general use'.<BR>
<BR>
No. I'm not missing it. You have just been unable to explain how much is<BR>
required for something to be "in quantity" or "in general use". I've asked<BR>
many questions in this thread to the effect of how much TLn technology must<BR>
be imported to make a world TLn, how many different objects of TLn must be<BR>
imported to reach TLn.<BR>
<BR>
I didn't want specifics, I merely wanted to know how to identify the tech<BR>
level of a world.<BR>
<BR>
>I want to make sure I haven't misunderstood a term so I use an online<BR>
>dictionary to check. That's how.<BR>
>><BR>
>>There are more there then you've listed.<BR>
>><BR>
>Those were the three adjectival definitions I found.<BR>
<BR>
In the future, you might try Merriam-Webster. http://www.m-w.com/dictionary<BR>
it would seem to be more comprehensive than the version you're using.<BR>
<BR>
>>I really don't like it when a discussion gets to the point of arguing over<BR>
>>dictionary definitions,<BR>
><BR>
>Really? Yet you've done it yourself, and very recently too. I quote from an<BR>
>earlier post of yours:<BR>
<BR>
Yep. I know full well I've done it. Doesn't mean I like it.<BR>
<BR>
>You may be using it correctly. I can't tell because I can't make out what<BR>
>you mean.<BR>
<BR>
Very simply: TL is abstract in that it gives a general suggestion of<BR>
technological sophistication, and does not reference the specifics on the<BR>
world.<BR>
<BR>
Which is what I've maintained from the beginning.<BR>
<BR>
>Sorry, I didn't realize that you didn't know about them. I do support the<BR>
>idea.<BR>
<BR>
Then I am forced to wonder why you didn't simply say that one could divide<BR>
the TL rating in the subgroups, as per the rules. Would have saved a great<BR>
deal of time on both ends, as I would have indicated several times in this<BR>
thread that I don't have an interest in that particular method of handling<BR>
the mechanic.<BR>
<BR>
>Yeah, the economic system is very crude, isn't it? But that doesn't really<BR>
>have much to do with the TL system.<BR>
<BR>
That's odd, one of your original points when I joined the thread was that TL<BR>
had to work a specific way in order for the economic system to function.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2289<BR>
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Traveller-digest       Monday, April 10 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2290<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
RE: That pesky TL definition<BR>
Re: GT Tech-Q : Sharing Ship Module Power Slices<BR>
The Ochetate Rebellion, part One<BR>
Re: Peter Newman's view of Traveller<BR>
Re: Maps of the Imperium site gone?<BR>
Re: Planet Three Traveller Navigator<BR>
An alternate TL definition (heresy warning)<BR>
Re: Wars in the Imperium<BR>
How old was Cleon<BR>
Re: How old was Cleon<BR>
RE:Running A Sci-Fi Campaign<BR>
Re: Running A Sci-Fi Campaign<BR>
Re: Peter's view of Traveller<BR>
Re Miniatures<BR>
Re Peter Newman<BR>
Re Scale in Space<BR>
Peter's view of Traveller<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 20:03:03 -0400<BR>
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net><BR>
Subject: RE: That pesky TL definition<BR>
<BR>
Again, I suspect we'll generally have to agree to disagree on the point of<BR>
tech levels. It's been fun, Hans! :)<BR>
<BR>
The idea of a versatile service industry is an interesting one. You admitted<BR>
that it was newly minted, and that you offer it with some reservations. It<BR>
still doesn't seem to support planets which have one major industry (the<BR>
hypothetical Heya). Under my "version" of Heya, which I'm not married to,<BR>
there would be no versatile service industry. You could get a TL12 tractor<BR>
repaired, but you'd be out of luck with a TL12 laser, or TL12 infrared<BR>
scanner (or grav tank).<BR>
<BR>
It is certainly an interesting take on the TL digit, however.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 19:52:12 +1000<BR>
From: "Katharine Whitchurch" <katts@globalfreeway.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re: GT Tech-Q : Sharing Ship Module Power Slices<BR>
<BR>
> From: Dalton Spence <dalton.spence@hwcn.org><BR>
> Subject: GT Tech-Q: Sharing Ship Module Power Slices<BR>
><BR>
> This reply has also been sent to the newsgroups.<BR>
> Including the power requirement in ship modules may make for easy<BR>
> design, but it also creates massively overpowered fusion reactors.<BR>
> Producing inexpensive jump ships is essential for trade IMTU, and<BR>
> one simple saving would involve sharing jump drive power slices<BR>
> with the manuver drive, beam weapons and meson screens; 3 systems<BR>
> that won't be used in jump anyway.<BR>
<BR>
Meson screens ? Merchant ships ? Are you *sure* you dont work at Famile<BR>
Spofulam ?<BR>
<BR>
BTW I am doing some re-thinking on the issue of exactly how brutally you<BR>
should optimise the power systems vis a vis the amount of power you need to<BR>
stay in jumpspace, plus thelife support, plus one gee of gravity plates. The<BR>
risk is power fluctuation within jumpspace - it could be a really, really<BR>
bad thing to dip under minimum power there. I think a 10% margin of safety<BR>
is a good idea ... now, to sell Ditzie on the idea ...<BR>
<BR>
>The simplest way is to calculate<BR>
> the total size, mass and cost of the power slices for those three<BR>
> systems, then subtract them from the size, mass and cost of the<BR>
> jump drive up to a maximum of twenty-five percent of the J-drive's<BR>
> original volume.<BR>
<BR>
<good stuff snipped><BR>
<BR>
Whilst I completely agree with all this, unfortunately it goes 100% against<BR>
the grain of the modules system as it was written (me, I'd have used Energy<BR>
Points and included power modules seperately, like High Guard did. But the<BR>
people that wrote it didnt). The idea was to have a simple system, and that<BR>
means power slices. I dont think anyone is going to turn Loren around under<BR>
this one.<BR>
<BR>
With weapons the problem you are hitting is that the weapons in Gurps:Trav<BR>
are not the most brutally optimised weapons that can be built under Gurps<BR>
design system - they are Gurps-legal equivalent of systems built under<BR>
Traveller.<BR>
<BR>
Here is the problem. Lets say that under Gurps rules we can build a killer<BR>
GT 10 particle weapon that happily fits into 10 dtons, and works off the<BR>
power surplus on a 200 dton Far Trader. Lets assume that it is much better<BR>
than an equivalent bunch of lasers.<BR>
<BR>
Everybody going into decontrolled space will want one, right ? If the Office<BR>
of Calender Compliance or some other Imperial bureaucracy cracks down, then<BR>
there will be a beautiful market for these things all along the fringes of<BR>
the Imperium.<BR>
<BR>
Now, in Traveller, you cannot build such a beastie (at least not until you<BR>
get to really high tech level - circular PAWs dont have the range, and<BR>
conventional PAWs have a output function that is a square of weapon length,<BR>
so at 140 m3 including accumulators you wont have a crunchy enough weapon).<BR>
<BR>
We therefore get a technology split developing between a Gurps Traveller<BR>
universe (Far Traders have 10 dton Particle mini-bays) and the other<BR>
Traveller universe (where they dont because (a) the minimum size of a PAW<BR>
bay is 50 dton under High Guard, (b) MegaTraveller didnt have them, (c) you<BR>
can't build them for TNE under FFS1 and (d) you can't build them under FFS2<BR>
for T4. T5 I dont know about, becasue it isnt written yet).<BR>
<BR>
I think you can see the potential for the same problems with personal<BR>
weapons.<BR>
<BR>
To conclude, the basic problem with gearheading in Gurps Trav is that if you<BR>
succeed too well, it may turn into something that isnt Trav any more ...<BR>
<BR>
Ian Whitchurch<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 21:34:07 +1000<BR>
From: "Katharine Whitchurch" <katts@globalfreeway.com.au><BR>
Subject: The Ochetate Rebellion, part One<BR>
<BR>
This is still very draft, and is designed to dovetail in with work being<BR>
done by Tim Reynolds about Forine and Elixabeth. Feedback will be gratefully<BR>
received. The inspiration is a mixture of Joseph Conrad's Nostromo, Fredrick<BR>
Forsyth's Dogs of War and the Iran-Contra Affair.<BR>
<BR>
Synopsis :<BR>
<BR>
As previously detailed, the PCs are interested in freeing Ochetate from it's<BR>
domination by Mewey.<BR>
<BR>
Imperial policy following the Fifth Frontier War has basically been to<BR>
re-draw the political map of District 268 and Five Sisters, essentially by<BR>
taking advantage of the present weakness of the Sword Worlds to replace<BR>
governments that are neither considered sound, or who are already solidly<BR>
within the Imperial orbit.<BR>
<BR>
The major target of this is Forine, as has been detailed by Tim Reynolds.<BR>
<BR>
However, the main Imperial project for this ("Project XVR-460") has been<BR>
partially captured by the Ochetate Resistance, through the actions of<BR>
Delgado Spices and Liquor Subsector Vice-President Mitsal Toran.<BR>
<BR>
Mitsal Toran was seconded to Project XVR-460 by Delgado, and has succeeded<BR>
in diverting four megacredits from XVR-460 funds.<BR>
<BR>
This will be used to bankroll an attempt to liberate Ochetate.<BR>
<BR>
The PCs are his tool in this.<BR>
<BR>
Part One : The Contact<BR>
<BR>
The PCs are assumed to control a Far Trader or similar ship, and are engaged<BR>
in trade and commerce in District 268 and Five Sisters. Having one of them<BR>
involved or in contact with in the Ochetate Resistance would help (this<BR>
might be a time for a pre-game briefing of one of the players about the<BR>
history of Ochetate and Mewey. Writing this up is something I will do<BR>
later).<BR>
<BR>
They are on Dallia (B8B5883-9 Fl), a lo-tech semi-industrial world in<BR>
District 268, and approached by an acquaintence about a possible long-term<BR>
charter.<BR>
<BR>
They meet with Mitsal Toran in an anonymous brokers office in the run-down<BR>
part of the commercial district of Dallia. Like most of Dallia, it is deep<BR>
underground, and the hissing of the air circulation system provides a<BR>
tremolo counterpoint to the rattling sounds of the trolley cars that provide<BR>
tranport on this world.<BR>
<BR>
The office itself is panelled in old and battered but genuine wood<BR>
(recognisable as King William Pine, a common Tarsus export), and the<BR>
holoscreen in the corner is likewise old and battered. Fixed and fading<BR>
holograms advertising Mertactor as a holiday destination line the walls.<BR>
<BR>
Mitsal Toran is tall, slim, dark and well-dressed. He looks like another<BR>
young, successful manager - age of perhaps thrity-five, although with<BR>
anagathics it is hard to be sure.<BR>
<BR>
He introduces himself, and asks if anyone present has heard of Project<BR>
XVR-460, the Imperial destabailisation project aimed at the replacement of<BR>
the government of Forine.<BR>
<BR>
The players probably havent, but they may bluff to hide their lack of<BR>
knowledge.<BR>
<BR>
In any case, he reaches into his briefcase and passes out a sheaf of<BR>
red-tabbed paper records, one file to each character (Scouts, Marines and<BR>
Naval characters will recognise this as Imperial security paper, treated so<BR>
that they will self-destruct once the tab is compressed for three seconds).<BR>
<BR>
It is an Imperial security clearance report for participation of the<BR>
character in Project XVR-460.<BR>
<BR>
They all failed.<BR>
<BR>
Mitsal looks at them each, and says "I am in charge of XVR-460. You were all<BR>
considered for XVR-460, but were all considered not sufficiently sound. That<BR>
is why you are here today. I want your participation in a wet, black<BR>
operation, but it isnt XVR-460. I want you to help me liberate Ochetate".<BR>
<BR>
The official terms are fairly simple - they all get signed up onto XVR-460,<BR>
involving a cash retainer of ICr 2000 a month, plus "reasonably justifiable<BR>
losses on non-commercially sound Project business".<BR>
<BR>
The unofficial terms include noble estates and titles on Ochetate (they have<BR>
lots of spare land), and one (only!) of a thirty-year sole-rights<BR>
exploitation lease on Ochetate's belt (all food supplies must be bought on<BR>
Ochetate, plus 20% of the staff on-belt have to be Ochetaters. Exports will<BR>
be tax-free for 20 years, and the concession will go 1/10th of the way<BR>
towards the standard Ocheatate corporate tax rates in year 21-30) or<BR>
permanent exemption from all port fees, taxes and tariffs for one ship owned<BR>
by the characters.<BR>
<BR>
And Toras ? If he succeeds, then Delgado gets an in to an effectively new<BR>
world, and he gets a bolt-hole if the Imperium finds out about the skimming.<BR>
<BR>
If he fails, then it's time for Plan B.<BR>
<BR>
They get given two thick files - one of Forine, and one on Ochetate. The<BR>
Ochetate on includes the technical specs on the Mewey occupation forces, and<BR>
on the Orbital fort.<BR>
<BR>
<End of part One. More stuff later><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 17:10:51 -0700<BR>
From: "Kelly St.Clair" <kellys@efn.org><BR>
Subject: Re: Peter Newman's view of Traveller<BR>
<BR>
"Peter," please message your project leader and let him or her know that <BR>
you've failed the Turing Test on this iteration.<BR>
<BR>
Thank you.<BR>
<BR>
- --------------<BR>
Kelly St.Clair    "You know, Brink, you've been acting funny ever since<BR>
kellys@efn.org     you came back from the dead.  (I can't believe I just<BR>
                    said that.)"    -- Commander Boston Low, THE DIG<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 20:12:28 -0400<BR>
From: "Sword-Worlder" <swordworlder@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Maps of the Imperium site gone?<BR>
<BR>
Well, that's a no-brainer.  Move it to Downport.com :-)<BR>
<BR>
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^<BR>
Colin Michael, WebDev<BR>
www.downport.com<BR>
The Traveller Domain<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message ----- <BR>
From: Jason Kemp <Jason.Kemp@tdh.state.tx.us><BR>
> The web page you are trying to access doesn't exist on Yahoo!<BR>
> GeoCities. http://www.geocities.com/ac_jackson/trav/trade.pdf Check<BR>
> our system status to see if we're having trouble or visit our help<BR>
> area for information and assistance.<BR>
> <BR>
> </cut and paste><BR>
> <BR>
> I've tried a few of the other links I have to the same website, but <BR>
> get the same response. Any thoughts out there on my next course of <BR>
> action?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 20:15:53 -0400<BR>
From: "Sword-Worlder" <swordworlder@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Planet Three Traveller Navigator<BR>
<BR>
Works great on my DOS machine.  I wondered why I never deleted that virus<BR>
named Windows 3.1 from that box :-p<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: Jeff Zeitlin <jzeitlin@cyburban.com><BR>
><BR>
> Note: It is a Win31 program that _almost_ works properly in<BR>
> Win9x. You can use it, mostly. But there are definite bugs.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 17:36:53 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
Subject: An alternate TL definition (heresy warning)<BR>
<BR>
On looking at what a primitive country looks like in the real world, I've<BR>
come to a conclusion: TL does not indicate what is available in the area.<BR>
TL does not indicate what is manufactured in the area.  TL does not even<BR>
necessarily indicate the knowledge of the area.  TL is much simpler.<BR>
<BR>
TL indicates how much money people have.  A low TL area will tend to use <BR>
cheap equipment, likely human-powered, with minimal electronics, bells and<BR>
whistles, and the like.  A high TL area will tend to be electronics-mad.<BR>
In addition, research is usually only done in the wealthy, high-tech areas...<BR>
but that's no big deal.  Here's a simple mapping I came up with, for TL<BR>
vs per capita GWP:<BR>
TTL 0   1   2   3   4   5   6   7   8   9   A   B   C   D   E   F   G<BR>
GTL 1   4   5   5   5   6   6   7   8   9   9   9   10  10  11  12  12<BR>
Cr  30  60  125 180 250 350 500 1k  2k  25h 3k  4k  5k  7k  10k 14k 20k<BR>
<BR>
I also recommend looking at http://www.io.com/~sjohn/2space.htm .<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 20:43:32 -0400<BR>
From: "VonRammen" <von_rammen@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Wars in the Imperium<BR>
<BR>
Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com> wrote in re the Falklands War:<BR>
<BR>
>I was rather disappointed at the time not to see President<BR>
>Reagan invoke the Monroe Doctrine and broker a peace by making<BR>
>the Falklands a US protectorate.  (The Monroe Doctrine, espoused<BR>
>by President Monroe a very long time ago, basically says that it<BR>
>is United States policy to oppose any European state's assertion<BR>
>of hegemony in North and South America -- that is, only the USA<BR>
>is to have hegemony over the Americas.)<BR>
<BR>
I used to wonder at that too; however, IIRC, the Monroe Doctrine<BR>
specifically applied only to "new interference," i.e. it did not apply to<BR>
European possessions in the Americas at the time of its promulgation. Thus,<BR>
the U.S. didn't use the Monroe Doctrine against British Oregon, Spanish<BR>
Cuba, French Guyana, etc et al. Assuming las Islas Maldiv...er, the<BR>
Falklands were British possessions prior to the MD (ca. 1820, IIRC), Reagan<BR>
couldn't have invoked it. And they were British citizens, as others have<BR>
noted.<BR>
<BR>
Fred Ramen<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 20:45:48 +0100<BR>
From: "Mark Preston" <mark@mpreston.demon.co.uk><BR>
Subject: How old was Cleon<BR>
<BR>
When the Imperium was formed ...<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Mark A. Preston<BR>
The Magpie's Nest http://www.mpreston.demon.co.uk<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 20:45:42 -0400<BR>
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: How old was Cleon<BR>
<BR>
Born in -59.  Makes him 59.<BR>
<BR>
Or so the Iridium Illuminati would have use believe.<BR>
<BR>
bloo<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Mark Preston wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> When the Imperium was formed ...<BR>
><BR>
> --<BR>
> Mark A. Preston<BR>
> The Magpie's Nest http://www.mpreston.demon.co.uk<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 21:10:14 -0400<BR>
From: "Terry Carlino" <carlino@home.com><BR>
Subject: RE:Running A Sci-Fi Campaign<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
>I'm a GM desperately looking for advice to improve his ability to run<BR>
>Sci-Fi campaigns. For some reason, I think I'm missing some critical<BR>
>point, because most of my SF games tend to end rather quickly, unlike<BR>
>my fantasy or World of Darkness games. I can't seem to get my players<BR>
>involved in them, and I am looking for suggestions to help me improve<BR>
>my ability to run a Traveller game that will last more than the first<BR>
>night or the first adventure. Is it really that big a difference in<BR>
>gamemastering?<BR>
><BR>
This is so open a question that giving a definitive answer would be almost<BR>
impossible. What kind of gaming style do you and your players use? Are your<BR>
fantasy games combat oriented? Exploration oriented? Dungeon Crawls?<BR>
Encounter Strings? Nothing wrong with any of those styles, if that's what<BR>
your players enjoy. Do they prefer rules-light gaming or is GURPS more their<BR>
style.<BR>
<BR>
Ask yourself what's different about your SF games. Are they too techie<BR>
oriented? By that I mean are they just a never-ending list of gee-wiz<BR>
gadgets? Perhaps background is burying your players. If they are very<BR>
familiar with your fantasy background perhaps they feel learning a<BR>
completely new background is too daunting a task.<BR>
<BR>
Give us more details and I'll bet we can all come up with a few good<BR>
suggestions that will fit your needs.<BR>
<BR>
Terry C<BR>
All that is Gold does not glitter<BR>
Not all who travel are lost<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 21:20:47 EDT<BR>
From: Qstor@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Running A Sci-Fi Campaign<BR>
<BR>
There are some resources on rpg.net that are good for all GM's also... the <BR>
site Uncle Figgys Guide to DMing is good as well...<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 20:43:26 -0500<BR>
From: Bolie Williams IV <bolie@io.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Peter's view of Traveller<BR>
<BR>
Smash the Icons!  Burn the Iconoclasts!  Kill the Infidels!<BR>
<BR>
Oh, wait... I thought this was game.  This discussion looks<BR>
like it should be on soc.religion.traveller...<BR>
<BR>
Please tell me that one of you is just pulling the other's<BR>
leg and that this discussion isn't really being taken<BR>
seriously...<BR>
<BR>
BTW, GURPS Traveller is the current edition of Traveller.<BR>
On page 177 of the GURPS Basic Set, it states:<BR>
<BR>
The GM is the final authority.  Rules are guidelines... the<BR>
designer's opinion about how things out to go.  But (as long<BR>
he is fair and consistent) the GM can change any number, any<BR>
cost, any rules.  His word is law.<BR>
<BR>
Page 7 of Classic Traveller Book 1 states:<BR>
<BR>
The referee must settle disputes about the rules (and may use<BR>
his own imagination while doing so, rather than strictly<BR>
adhering to the letter of the rules).<BR>
<BR>
P. 154 of Marc Miller's Traveller (T4) main book states:<BR>
<BR>
Remember, when it comes to how the rules work and how everyone<BR>
else in the universe responds to the actions of the PCs, you<BR>
are in charge!  As long as you are a benevolent dictator,<BR>
everyone will have a good time.<BR>
<BR>
I see a pattern here... the rules are just guidelines,<BR>
not hard and fast.  The referee is the ultimate authority<BR>
and can contradict the written rules.<BR>
<BR>
Bolie IV<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
At 5:06 AM -0800 4/10/2000, Peter Newman wrote:<BR>
>Matt Bond <MBOND@karpad.demon.co.uk> wrote<BR>
><BR>
>>  If you deign to consider CT as canon (as I am at work and only have the<BR>
>>  CT Reprints to hand) I would like to quote the following canon<BR>
>>  statements:<BR>
><BR>
>CT background information is canon. CT rules canon is<BR>
>not canonical if contradicted by MT rules canon. MT<BR>
>superseded CT for a reason. CT rules canon that was<BR>
>altered or omitted in MT may have been deliberately<BR>
>omitted due to it being in error, therefore it should<BR>
>be looked upon with suspicion.<BR>
><BR>
>>  "Standard Designs: There are a number of standard design plans<BR>
>>  available; they have been in use for a long time and are available for a<BR>
>>  nominal fee (Cr 100 for the set).Shuttle, and 10-ton Fighter. Other<BR>
>>  standard plans may be available at various localities."<BR>
>>  CT Bk2 Starships, p12<BR>
>>  Note the last sentence, it explicitly states that there are 'standard'<BR>
>>  designs *beyond* those explicitly listed.<BR>
><BR>
>It says _may_ be available not _are_ available. It also<BR>
>says in various localities (not Imperium wide). therefore<BR>
>these designs do not meet the 2nd MT definition of<BR>
>standard (commonly available Imperium wide). That sentence<BR>
>uses standard in the sense of (gets a class<BR>
>discount).<BR>
><BR>
>>  "When you have become familiar with the basic rules, you can begin<BR>
>>  modifying them if desired..."<BR>
>>  "Referees should feel free to modify any rule to whatever extent they<BR>
>>  see fit..."<BR>
>>  "...indeed in most cases, some deviation from the<BR>
>>  Games Designers' Workshop has<BR>
>>  created a universe which can be used as is or slightly modified."<BR>
>>  "The referee is must settle disputes about the rules (and may use his<BR>
>>  own imagination while doing so, rather than strictly adhering to the<BR>
>>  letter of the rules."<BR>
>>  When a starship enters a system, there is a chance it will encounter any<BR>
>>  one of a number of different ships going about their business. Very<BR>
>>  often, the exact encounter is the responsibility of the referee; for<BR>
>>  routine encounters, or for inspiration, the accompanying starship<BR>
>>  encounter table is provided."<BR>
><BR>
>>  As you can see, canon allows for standard ships other than those<BR>
>>  explicitly listed, allows referees to modify rules, allows for encounter<BR>
>>  tables to be guides to routine encounters rather than the only ships<BR>
>>  that can be encountered etc etc<BR>
><BR>
>All these pieces of CT text were excluded from MT while some<BR>
>other portions of the CT rules were ported over word for<BR>
>word into MT (and later into TNE & T4). IMO these pieces were<BR>
>excluded on purpose because they no longer fit the look and<BR>
>feel of Traveller + the Third Imperium (as opposed to Traveller<BR>
>as set of generic SF RPG rules). In a generic setting the<BR>
>referee does and should have these freedoms but in the official<BR>
>Third Imperium setting he should not.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<BR>
Bolie Williams IV<BR>
bolie@io.com<BR>
http://www.io.com/~bolie/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 16:50:51 -0800<BR>
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re Miniatures<BR>
<BR>
>>I'm not sure about the scale of miniatures.  I have some really good<BR>
>>Traveller miniatures in 6mm, 15mm (the old Martian Metals ones), and<BR>
>>25mm.  I'll see what everyone has the most of and go from there.  Since<BR>
>>I'm going to start building some more terrain maybe the group could give<BR>
>>me some feedback on miniature scale.<BR>
><BR>
>  25mm is too rich (IMHO) unless someone already has a big collection -<BR>
>if you prefer that scale I can recommend some good/cheap mini's.<BR>
><BR>
>  15mm is ideal for AHL or "indoor" Striker (= AHL w/Striker upgrades) -<BR>
>you can get enough detail to "individualize" characters, and the figs are<BR>
>cheap enough that a collection adequate for decent scenarios need not cost<BR>
>more than an evening at the pub.<BR>
><BR>
There are some nice 10mm sci-fi lines coming out, as well. And they do the<BR>
Car-Wars 1"=15' fairly accurately- in short, they fit 2-3 figs per 1/2"<BR>
deckplan grid, putting them just the other side of figure:ground from 15mm.<BR>
What's available currently is limited. But 10mm is DIRT CHEAP. somewhere<BR>
around US$0.10 per fig. (IIRC, Warrior Miniatures ships packs of 10 figures<BR>
in 10mm for UK0.5)<BR>
<BR>
While 10mm has many problems, it's cheap, figures can be individualized,<BR>
and they fit nicely on the maps. 15mm is over the ground-scale of<BR>
1/2"=1.5m, and 10mm is under, but they're both close.<BR>
<BR>
William F. Hostman  |  "Smith & Wesson: THe original Point and Click<BR>
interface!"<BR>
Aramis 0602 C55A364-C S kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge-<BR>
533<BR>
aramis@gci.net http://home.gci.net/~aramis Vilani: uilamaanamti sirohbrankilin<BR>
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn- t4-- tt+ to- tg-- ru+ ge 3i+ c+ jt-() au+ st- ls<BR>
pi+() ta+ he+(-) kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge- pi+<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 17:06:46 -0800<BR>
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re Peter Newman<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
>Peter, you are either a troll, or are *incredibly* obtuse...<BR>
><BR>
He's neither. But he tends towards pedantry. He's not so bad as a player;<BR>
he will let the GM do what the GM wills, but might asky for the "why's and<BR>
How's", and works best when house rules are presented in writing.<BR>
<BR>
And he's got roughly the same level of pedantry in personal discussions of<BR>
Canon. He raised an objection (after session) during one of my games: I<BR>
figured about 1 in 10 of the scout-couriers were Type S1, or Type S2. (The<BR>
S1 is the "Canon" Serpent Class, the S2 is my MT version, with a full<BR>
survey kit.) He objected using nearly the same arguments about canon. My<BR>
reply: "So i'm not using literal canon. I am aware of this." That ended<BR>
that line.<BR>
<BR>
But, there is a really good point that's been brought up...<BR>
Several things are notable by their lack in canon designs:<BR>
	1) Vessels with multiple jumps of fuel. (IE, round-trip)<BR>
	2) any cargo handling costs. There is a throwaway  reference that<BR>
the local handles the costs of loading and unloading to the quay; the ships<BR>
crew wrangle to/from the quay and the bay.<BR>
	3) Long term life support. T4 didn't have enough time for such<BR>
specialized designs to appear in cannon, and prior editions lacked rules<BR>
for LTLS. Beltstrike and the Asteroid Mining article in JTAS#_/BoJTASv1<BR>
gave expendables costs and sizes, but not specifics on building LTLS<BR>
systems into craft.<BR>
	4) Cargo wranglers in ship's crew requirements.<BR>
<BR>
Canon also has had differences between table frequencies and fill text<BR>
descriptions of frequencies in several editions (TNE the most apparent of<BR>
these, with the rates fo vampires and other Virus-infected craft). CG<BR>
Tables often have been slightly at odds with Background/Setting Material.<BR>
Different editions of Traveller have differing assumptions about the nature<BR>
of the universe.<BR>
<BR>
William F. Hostman  |  "Smith & Wesson: THe original Point and Click<BR>
interface!"<BR>
Aramis 0602 C55A364-C S kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge-<BR>
533<BR>
aramis@gci.net http://home.gci.net/~aramis Vilani: uilamaanamti sirohbrankilin<BR>
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn- t4-- tt+ to- tg-- ru+ ge 3i+ c+ jt-() au+ st- ls<BR>
pi+() ta+ he+(-) kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge- pi+<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 17:49:10 -0800<BR>
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re Scale in Space<BR>
<BR>
>>Having tried to write space combat rules of my own, I've another theory.<BR>
>>You set the timescale so that player characters can do repairs within a<BR>
>>single turn. You then set weapons ranges based upon scale and whatever<BR>
>>level of reality modeling you wish. Then you explain any variances not<BR>
>>supoorted by the real  world.<BR>
>><BR>
>Thanks Bill, that's a good point.<BR>
<BR>
Please, do not call me "Bill". I use Wil, or William. (Major pet peeve of<BR>
mine. Sorry.)<BR>
<BR>
> What do you think is a reasonable<BR>
>timeframe for repairs?  I wonder what kinds of repairs modern warship crews<BR>
>can do in combat?  I suppose firefighting and pumping water out might be<BR>
>the extent of it.<BR>
<BR>
Well, according to the Bluejacket's Manual, 17th and 19th eds (which are<BR>
the two I've had access to) the tasks for damage control include<BR>
fire-fighting, breaker replacement, clearing of weapons system jams,<BR>
finding and capping steam leaks (quite hazardous, BTW, as the steam can be<BR>
into the low thousand PSI range on the big boats; a pinhole leak is a steam<BR>
cutting system...), pumping out flooded and resealed compartments,<BR>
counterflooding compartments, emergency medicine, black-box replacement,<BR>
and failure prevention.<BR>
<BR>
Most of these tasks can best be modeled by listing x turns of y duration.<BR>
Finding a steam leak involves getting a broom or other item, and going into<BR>
the steam filled corridor; you have the section of pipe cornered when the<BR>
broom handle cuts. Subs drill for steam or water leaks to be found and<BR>
capped in under 5 minutes. Flooding and counter flooding are irrelevant in<BR>
space; but they are entirely dependant upon size of craft, size of leak,<BR>
pumping capability, and type of repair needed. Comparison would be<BR>
pre-decompressing (IMTU, typically they depress to about 3psi, with 3psi<BR>
PPO2 from the mask, and <0.1psi PPO2 in circulation. this is, BTW, roughly<BR>
comparable with what NASA does for EVA's. Takes about 30 minutes to prepare<BR>
as a safe minimum in order to avoid the bends.<BR>
<BR>
Swapping modules is also likely; much damage will come from shorts, rather<BR>
than direct disruption of core systems. Lots of "Reroute to Auxilliary<BR>
while we run to stores, and pull that spare X-35 SPU which shorted from<BR>
that last hit!"<BR>
<BR>
Using 5 minute turns puts detection well before any reasonable combat area,<BR>
but makes discrete tasks for DamCon feel right to me, with high chances fo<BR>
failure. Using 30 minutes requires weapons ranges be extreme, shots to be<BR>
massive numbers for few hits, and accounting for time-lag should be part of<BR>
the firing solution. (The math is UGLY if you can change your vector by<BR>
more than your own length during the time it takes for your image to reach,<BR>
be responded to, and fire return to hit you. The nummbers go up<BR>
logarithmically with lag-times.)<BR>
<BR>
>>Seriously, tho' at reasonable scales, the 100d limit is going to be quite a<BR>
>>ways from the world. And CT was simple and playable, not particularly<BR>
>>realistic. By assuming massive numbers of shots, you'll secure a decent<BR>
>>number of hits in that time-frame.<BR>
>><BR>
>How far out can ships arrive out of jump from a planet?  IIRC, anywhere in<BR>
>a system outside of 100 diameter limits.<BR>
<BR>
Based upon TNE, you can wind up as far out as 20AU... realistically, most<BR>
ships will probably come out between 100 and 200 diameters of the planet<BR>
unless the stellar mass-shadow interferes, or you had a minor misjump<BR>
event. And just remember, everything IS, IN FACT, in motion. So, the frame<BR>
of reference for jump might be an issue. But, again, the math is<BR>
unreasonably annoying to do, so it's safely ignored except as a plot<BR>
complication.<BR>
<BR>
And, as someone else pointed out, hex-size (AKA surface scale or ground<BR>
scale, for mini's types) needs to be tied to level of expected<BR>
accelleration, expected size of palying field, and length of turn. Some<BR>
games use 30 minute turns, and hexes 3000km, with accelleration being 1<BR>
HexPerTurn (HPT) being 0.1G; some use 30,000 with 1 HPT being 1G.<BR>
<BR>
One other factor for 30Mm hexes: That is also the standard for SFB, and is<BR>
conviniently right close to 1/10 LS. (Note: SFB uses 1 turn= 0.1Sec!, so<BR>
C=1HPT!) SFB has been popular for much of the lifespan of Traveller.<BR>
<BR>
Now, another game I'm fond of uses ~150Mm (~150,000 km) hexes, ie, about<BR>
1/2 LS... with 30 second turns: Starfire. Max weapons range is 15 hexes for<BR>
DF weaponry. Since starfire lacks FTL, and some scenarios cover whole<BR>
systems, Starfire steps time/hex sizes upwards through several levels. This<BR>
approach is complex, but allows detection on the map-sheet, and then<BR>
maneuveing to engage, when you trigger the more detailed scale set. (1st Ed<BR>
starfire added scaling in an article around Nexus 7 or 8. Second Ed<BR>
integrated it. Third and 3rd revised still use it.)<BR>
<BR>
What scale works is entirely dependant upon what's been assumed in the<BR>
set-up. Traveller needed to be able to account for intercepts with HOURS of<BR>
accelleration at multiple G's. Some games (Like FASA's Battlespace) assume<BR>
short bursts at fractions of a G.<BR>
<BR>
The whole choice of scale IS a ballancing act. CT, while more realistic<BR>
than, oh, say SFB or Starfire, has such different assumptions that I'd<BR>
wager a Traveller Scout/Courier  could probably evande almost anything it<BR>
couldn't kill from the Battletech setting. On the other hand, it's not as<BR>
realistic a system as BL, even tho' BL has a less satisfactory (to me) time<BR>
and distance scale. Realistically, almost all combat should be same-hex...<BR>
and the to hit tasks for BL are WAY WAY WAY to easy at long raanges. Oh,<BR>
and gunnery skills really shouldn't have much effect at those kind of<BR>
ranges; the accuracy needed to do the kind of "Saturation" effect needed<BR>
are well and away tighter than any gunner will be able to do with manual<BR>
controls. But it is fun, it is playable (albeit somewhat over detailed for<BR>
my tastes), and it is Traveller.<BR>
<BR>
William F. Hostman  |  "Smith & Wesson: THe original Point and Click<BR>
interface!"<BR>
Aramis 0602 C55A364-C S kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge-<BR>
533<BR>
aramis@gci.net http://home.gci.net/~aramis Vilani: uilamaanamti sirohbrankilin<BR>
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn- t4-- tt+ to- tg-- ru+ ge 3i+ c+ jt-() au+ st- ls<BR>
pi+() ta+ he+(-) kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge- pi+<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 21:04:51 -0500<BR>
From: tim@premier.net<BR>
Subject: Peter's view of Traveller<BR>
<BR>
Ok I have been reading most of these post.  It seems to me that <BR>
the argument over whether or not there are other ships then whats <BR>
in the rules. Most arguments against Peter's view seem to be the <BR>
classic Heretic argument...The book says I can change what I <BR>
want.  This is true and most GM's accept this argument, especially <BR>
to make the plot work.  <BR>
<BR>
But I think a better argument exist then this.  If you cant have non-<BR>
standard ships why have ship design rules.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Tim Reynolds<BR>
tim@premier.net <BR>
225-334-5063<BR>
- ------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
Getting an education was a bit like a communicable <BR>
sexual disease.  It made you unsuitable for <BR>
a lot of jobs and then you had the urge to pass it on.<BR>
<BR>
Terry Pratchett <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2290<BR>
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Traveller-digest      Tuesday, April 11 2000      Volume 1999 : Number 2291<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Landgrab: Fornice seized!<BR>
Stop me, I'm filking<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2290<BR>
Re Peter and the Rules<BR>
Re GMing Sci-Fi<BR>
Re Hegemony<BR>
Re: Scale in Space<BR>
Traveller on USENET<BR>
Re: Scale in Space<BR>
Re:Damage Control<BR>
near-C rocks (was Peter Newman's view of Traveller)<BR>
Re: Basic Economics (was Re: Astronomy in the 57th Century)<BR>
Re: Basic Economics (was Re: Astronomy in the 57th Century)<BR>
Re: Peter's view of Traveller<BR>
Landgrab - Quopist\Lanth [LONG]<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 22:25:37 -0400<BR>
From: Glenn Grant <neo@total.net><BR>
Subject: Landgrab: Fornice seized!<BR>
<BR>
Okay, I'm always late arriving at a party.<BR>
<BR>
Gimme Fornice/Mora (SM 3025)<BR>
<BR>
MT data: A354A87-C  Hi  202 Im M0v<BR>
<BR>
I've got the MT data above, and BTC.  Does anybody know of any other stuff<BR>
I should read?  And if so, can they forward it to me off-list?<BR>
<BR>
Much appreciated.<BR>
<BR>
Best,<BR>
<BR>
   + GMG +<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
               Glenn Grant  <neo@total.net><BR>
   "How come if we can send a man to the Moon, we can't<BR>
             send a man to the Moon anymore?"<BR>
           --Cmdr Rick, _Prisoners of Gravity_<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 22:35:03 -0400<BR>
From: Glenn Grant <neo@total.net><BR>
Subject: Stop me, I'm filking<BR>
<BR>
Yes, I'm afraid it's true.<BR>
<BR>
I tried to stop myself but I couldn't.  The Billy Joel was the last straw.<BR>
The... uh... highly questionable musical taste revealed by some of the TML<BR>
filk postings in recent months have driven me to at least try to redress<BR>
the situation somewhat by offering this, the first in what I hope to be a<BR>
series of filks based on more cool musical selections.  (Mind you, the<BR>
Boomtown Rats references in the last few days have helped to salvage the<BR>
list's hip quotient slightly, but only slightly.)<BR>
<BR>
Iit's not easy to sing even in the original version. Getting this to scan<BR>
properly may take some practice...<BR>
<BR>
LIVING THROUGH ANOTHER RUBY<BR>
(to the tune of "Living Through Another Cuba,"<BR>
by Andy Partridge, on "Black Sea" by XTC)<BR>
<BR>
[Technically, requires two singers: the phrase "Living through another<BR>
Ruby" is repeated throughout by a back-up singer; the lead singer starts<BR>
each line on the second syllable of "Ruby".]<BR>
<BR>
(Living through another Ru-u-u-by)<BR>
It's Year Five-Eighty-Nine again and<BR>
   we are groat-on-the-griddle<BR>
(Living through another Ru-u-u-by)<BR>
Caught between the Doggies and<BR>
    mind-raping Tavrchedl'<BR>
(Living through another Ru-u-u-by)<BR>
The Joeys and Imperials are at each other's throats<BR>
   but don't you cry<BR>
(Living through another Ru-u-u-by)[etc.]<BR>
Just hit your drop zone and, while you're down there,<BR>
   kiss your arse goodbye!<BR>
<BR>
The Arden Feds sit on the fence,<BR>
   the Swordies have a seat but they won't share<BR>
Soon as the music stops again<BR>
   the Admiral is eyeing Strephon's chair<BR>
Elfin Mister Darrian<BR>
   holds Miss Entrope in Special Arm<BR>
He loves me, he loves me not,<BR>
   he's popping flares with his stellar bomb...<BR>
<BR>
This same phenomenon happens<BR>
   every century or so<BR>
If they're not careful Asmodeus won't be<BR>
   the only world with a radioactive glow<BR>
I'll turn the sound down on my screen and<BR>
   hope a treaty's signed before too late<BR>
If we're not in for a Long Night,<BR>
   they're due for replay, Eleven-Twenty-Eight<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
               Glenn Grant  <neo@total.net><BR>
_Northern Suns: The New Anthology of Canadian Science Fiction_<BR>
          Edited by David Hartwell & Glenn Grant<BR>
  ++Now in trade paperback from Tor Books++<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 19:53:57 -0700<BR>
From: Russell Bornschlegel <kaleja@estarcion.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2290<BR>
<BR>
William F. Hostman wrote:<BR>
> Several things are notable by their lack in canon designs:<BR>
>         1) Vessels with multiple jumps of fuel. (IE, round-trip)<BR>
<BR>
I used to routinely put multiple jumps worth of fuel into my High Guard <BR>
ship designs (e.g. Jump-2, 40% fuel, for example). I then realized that <BR>
the delta for adding another jump drive factor was only 1% of the ship <BR>
under HG. It's rare that I feel that an additional 1% of the ship devoted <BR>
to non-drive stuff is worth losing a jump number, so I generally increase <BR>
the jump number until it matches the fuel tankage, provided that the <BR>
needed jump drive TL is available.<BR>
<BR>
- -Russell B<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 18:28:44 -0800<BR>
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re Peter and the Rules<BR>
<BR>
Mr.Berry queried thusly in response the Peter Newman's comment:<BR>
>>While most sets of game rules explicitly state that they are<BR>
>>written as a framework the MT rules, as written, do not.<BR>
>>Therefore the MT rules are a straitjacket not a framework.<BR>
><BR>
>!  You have got to be kidding me.  I'm serious, do you really believe this?<BR>
<BR>
I can't attest to his belief, but I can attest to his having stuck with<BR>
that pattern of behaviour in regaurd to the MT ruleset. And also to the few<BR>
baord-games which we play. And similarly literal interpretations of various<BR>
other sets of rules.<BR>
<BR>
Perhaps you should ask him why he won't participate in litigation... <GD&R><BR>
<BR>
Seriously, tho, Peter is an excellent player, even if he does read too much<BR>
into the letter of the rules. (You should have heard some of our<BR>
out-side-the-session discussions of the D&D Cyclopaedia Rules.)<BR>
<BR>
And, by Peter's standards, I'm a serious heretic.<BR>
<BR>
Chris Dixon had this to say:<BR>
>My question to you would be: do you and your player group have fun when<BR>
>playing the game under such a draconian interpretation of the rules?  If<BR>
>you do and they like it that way well....more power to you.  If not you<BR>
>might try relaxing your stance a bit, as it opens up a lot of<BR>
>possibilities for creativity on the part of the players and the GM.<BR>
<BR>
He's mellowed over the years, but yes, he tends towards excessive<BR>
literalism in many aspects of GMing in the very few times I've been a<BR>
player in one of his games. Never again will I play GURPS under Peter. Ars<BR>
Magic, with someone else as primary storyteller, definitely worth the<BR>
effort. Peter can be an excellent action-oriented GM with the right set of<BR>
rules.<BR>
<BR>
William F. Hostman  |  "Smith & Wesson: THe original Point and Click<BR>
interface!"<BR>
Aramis 0602 C55A364-C S kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge-<BR>
533<BR>
aramis@gci.net http://home.gci.net/~aramis Vilani: uilamaanamti sirohbrankilin<BR>
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn- t4-- tt+ to- tg-- ru+ ge 3i+ c+ jt-() au+ st- ls<BR>
pi+() ta+ he+(-) kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge- pi+<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 18:51:58 -0800<BR>
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re GMing Sci-Fi<BR>
<BR>
Jason Kemp wrote:<BR>
> I'm a GM desperately looking for advice to improve his ability<BR>
> to run Sci-Fi campaigns. For some reason, I think I'm missing<BR>
> some critical point, because most of my SF games tend to end<BR>
> rather quickly, unlike my fantasy or World of Darkness games. I<BR>
> can't seem to get my players involved in them, and I am looking<BR>
> for suggestions to help me improve my ability to run a<BR>
> Traveller game that will last more than the first night or the<BR>
> first adventure. Is it really that big a difference in<BR>
> gamemastering?<BR>
<BR>
Well, what TYPE of sci-fi are you running? Traveller can be run as a<BR>
light-cyber cyberpunk, a massive space-operatic swath, grunts on the<BR>
ground, grunts prowling the spacelanes, In Service to the Crown type games,<BR>
Private Citizens simply trying to break even, impovrished merchants,<BR>
merchant princes, even the Board of Directors of a Megacorp. Each of these<BR>
has a distinctly different appeal. Take the preferences of my players:<BR>
	Peter, the Pedant: Prefers mechantile campaign with intrigue added.<BR>
		Prefers to avoid military-type adventures.<BR>
	Scot: Anything where he can play the grunt with a heart of gols.<BR>
	Rich #1 (Currently unavailable): Grand sweeping but still hard SF<BR>
		space-opera. The heroes must do the larger than life without<BR>
		having the skills to be larger than life.<BR>
	Rich #2: Anything which allows him to play a character with major<BR>
		personality disorders<BR>
	Rich #3: Anything which doesn't feel like Asimov hand any hand in it.<BR>
	Clint: Big BG fan - The universe is a harsh place.<BR>
	Bill: anything where he can directly transplant his ideas and memories<BR>
		of the USMC during the 'Nam.<BR>
<BR>
(These are some of the group. not all. For obvious reasons.<BR>
<BR>
> Any assistance, including articles on Sci-Fi gamemastering<BR>
> available online or your own personal experiences, would be<BR>
> greatly appreciated. Thank you in advance for whatever you have<BR>
> to offer.<BR>
<BR>
Ask your players what type of Sci-Fi campaign they want. Meet them about<BR>
2/3rd of the way (for  you). and slowly work your way back. I've found<BR>
that, in general, Sci-Fan (like Star Wars, or Trek) appeals to my groups<BR>
literary interests, but NOT their playing interests. Asimovian seems to<BR>
work better for play. Yeah, Peter gripes about the characters being singled<BR>
out by the nobility, but, hey, he keeps playing. (I've now not run<BR>
Traveller in about 2 years. A 1.5 year epic campaign sorta ran me out of<BR>
ideas, and group changes destroyed the ballance that I had 4 years ago, and<BR>
the short stints of 3 months on later campaigns failed due to player<BR>
styles.)<BR>
<BR>
No GM is an island to which players are marooned. With effort, they CAN<BR>
find someone else. Or even choose not to play. In my case, I've had more<BR>
problems with Sci-Fi due to players not being able to grasp the fundamental<BR>
"unreality" elements most sci-fi settings include. I've run several<BR>
different types of Sci-Fi. Peter is after me to run more Sci-Fi. (My latest<BR>
kick has been non-tolkienian fantasy. First with Dragonlance under DL5A<BR>
rules, and now with Better Games _Arabian Sea Tales_. And, beforre that,<BR>
I'd run Palladium, and before that, I ran LUG-Trek.)<BR>
<BR>
Fantasy seems to evoke fewer arguments about what is and is not<BR>
believeable. Sci-Fi, as a field, is splintered into so many subcultures and<BR>
styles that are att odds. Fantasy basically breaks down to: Tolkienian,<BR>
Vancian, Howardesque (Conan, et al), and Moorcockian; most games are shaded<BR>
with all of the above to some degree. The breadth of appeal for sci-fi is<BR>
much narrower audiences for most authors.<BR>
<BR>
William F. Hostman  |  "Smith & Wesson: THe original Point and Click<BR>
interface!"<BR>
Aramis 0602 C55A364-C S kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge-<BR>
533<BR>
aramis@gci.net http://home.gci.net/~aramis Vilani: uilamaanamti sirohbrankilin<BR>
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn- t4-- tt+ to- tg-- ru+ ge 3i+ c+ jt-() au+ st- ls<BR>
pi+() ta+ he+(-) kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge- pi+<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 18:56:40 -0800<BR>
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re Hegemony<BR>
<BR>
Dom typeth this:<BR>
>BTW I'm confused by your use of 'hegemony' here. My OED defines it as<BR>
>"Leadership. predominance of one state of a confederacy, orig.<BR>
>Ancient Greece". Is there another meaning, or does North American<BR>
>English use it differently to British English? (Not a troll, a<BR>
>serious question).<BR>
<BR>
Well, one of the best examples of the US usage is a sci-fi novel: _Ender's<BR>
Game_, by Orson Scot Card. The term isn't in all that common a US use.<BR>
<BR>
I personally interpret "Hegemony" to mean: "A government composed of<BR>
sub-governements, of which one doubles as or directly controlls the overall<BR>
government."<BR>
<BR>
William F. Hostman  |  "Smith & Wesson: THe original Point and Click<BR>
interface!"<BR>
Aramis 0602 C55A364-C S kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge-<BR>
533<BR>
aramis@gci.net http://home.gci.net/~aramis Vilani: uilamaanamti sirohbrankilin<BR>
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn- t4-- tt+ to- tg-- ru+ ge 3i+ c+ jt-() au+ st- ls<BR>
pi+() ta+ he+(-) kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge- pi+<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 21:49:42 -0600<BR>
From: Dale Gyles <gyles@mtn-webtech.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Scale in Space<BR>
<BR>
At 10:01 PM 4/10/00 -0400, you wrote:<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
>Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 17:49:10 -0800<BR>
>From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net><BR>
>Subject: Re Scale in Space<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
>Please, do not call me "Bill". I use Wil, or William. (Major pet peeve of<BR>
>mine. Sorry.)<BR>
><BR>
I apologize, no offense intended.<BR>
<BR>
Thanks for the response.  So, assuming a five minute turn and 1G = 10 m/s,<BR>
a ship that accelerated at 1G for a turn would reach a velocity of 3 kms<BR>
per second, resulting a distance scale of 900 kilometers per hex, (ignoring<BR>
the 1/2 part of the equation).  The diameter of the Earth is approximately<BR>
13,000 km, so roughly 14 hexes/base units across.  So the 100 diameter<BR>
limit is 1400 hexes. (pardon the approximations, I'm too tired to find my<BR>
astronomy book and calculator.)<BR>
<BR>
Hmmm.  I see what you and Leonard mean.  The CT scale of 1000 second turns<BR>
results in basic distance unit of 10,000 km, which is maybe 130 hexes to<BR>
safe jump distance.  Even at one hex = 1 inch, that explains why they<BR>
played it on the floor.  Makes my knees and back hurt just thinking about it.<BR>
<BR>
My players do give me funny looks when I tell them the timescale.  But, now<BR>
I can explain it logically to them, thanks to you guys.  I appreciate this.<BR>
 I have been avoiding space combat in my game, because of this.  This is<BR>
getting harder and harder to do, since this is an anti-pirate campaign.<BR>
Now, I just need to decide what combat system to use.  Mayday Classic?  The<BR>
BITS version?  Brilliant Lances?  Battlerider?  A Full Thrust conversion?<BR>
The one by Roger Myrhe?  T4? Megatraveller?  Classic Traveller?  In any<BR>
case, it's going to be on my gaming table!  I'm not a kid anymore.<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<BR>
Dale Gyles<BR>
Black Eagle, MT<BR>
gyles@mtn-webtech.com<BR>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 23:13:45 -0500<BR>
From: "David Reed" <david.reed@xolutions.net><BR>
Subject: Traveller on USENET<BR>
<BR>
After wading through the last 1000+ messages to TML in the last eleven<BR>
days...  (As if that wasn't enough punishment!) and in search of further<BR>
things to do to avoid whatever it is my task list says that I should be<BR>
doing...  I wandered into the Abyss of USENET, and I discovered (insert<BR>
hokey drum roll):<BR>
<BR>
	msn.forums.games.rpg.traveller<BR>
<BR>
which is apparently served as a public newsgroup?  [I thought MS had dropped<BR>
their MSN newsfeeds.]  After being mildly excited (I was<BR>
forewarned/forearmed by that nasty little April Fool's prank that I read two<BR>
weeks late - imagine my disappointment; I second Chris' nomination for<BR>
Swordy as "cruel bastard of the millennium"), I discovered the newsgroup<BR>
empty - but in my Zen-ness, I filled the void with my "one true ping".  Will<BR>
anyone ICMP echo it?<BR>
<BR>
There is likely a Traveller somewhere in Mordor, where the coders' lie...<BR>
<BR>
Who else would've gotten MSN to create this lonely group?<BR>
<BR>
[Quick, somebody call Reno!  I smell a Microsoft conspiracy to take over the<BR>
roleplaying industry!]<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 22:24:06 -0600<BR>
From: Dale Gyles <gyles@mtn-webtech.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Scale in Space<BR>
<BR>
At 12:59 PM 4/10/00 -0400, you wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>>>Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2000 15:08:51 PST<BR>
>>>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
>>>Subject: Re: Scale in Space<BR>
>> Thanks, Leonard.  That's what I needed to know. Just to clarify, if I<BR>
>> understand you correctly, once a ship is detected, it is very easy to<BR>
>> track.  How about initial detection for a ship in orbit "running silent"<BR>
>> using passive and active sensors?<BR>
><BR>
>You see, in space, the parts of the sky not occupied by planet's and<BR>
>stars are at a "temperature" of 3 K (3 Kelvins above absolute zero).<BR>
>Ignoring the emmisions from engineering, the *life system* (ie people<BR>
>occupied) parts of the ship are at a temp of 300 K. Add in the<BR>
>temperature of the required radiators for the power plant and you are<BR>
>even *brighter* in the IR. <BR>
><BR>
I see.<BR>
<BR>
>And since people produce heat merely by being *alive*, you *have* to be<BR>
>radiating the heat they produce, at least as fast as they produce it.<BR>
>Ditto for the "waste heat" produced by the rest of the ship's systems.<BR>
>If you *don't* radiate as much energy as is produced, then the internal<BR>
>temperature of the ship goes up. And there's a very narrow range that<BR>
>people can stay alive in. <BR>
><BR>
Yup, I hadn't considered this.<BR>
<BR>
>Our current IR satellites are detecting asteroids at several AU. And<BR>
>they are noticably weaker sources than a ship that's near a planet.<BR>
><BR>
>The only possible "dodges" are using smaller but higher temperature<BR>
>radiators. It takes extra power, and thus requires you to get rid of<BR>
>*more* waste heat to get rid of heat at a temp above the one you are<BR>
>trying to keep something at. That's why the "coils" on a refrigerator<BR>
>are so warm *and* why they take so much power.<BR>
><BR>
>These will be even *more* detectable, but you can try to aim them in a<BR>
>direction where you hope there aren't any sensors aimed at you. If you<BR>
>are wrong about that, you'll find out the hard way.<BR>
><BR>
Okay, what about a really large sheet of mylar or some such material, not<BR>
as big as a lightsail, but big.  Could you hide behind that?  Lets assume<BR>
it is a really good reflector of IR and it is tethered to your ship so it<BR>
doesn't blow away from radiation pressure.  Would multiple sheets help?<BR>
(I'm just trying to hide from IR sensors and force the bad guys to go active.)<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
>>><BR>
>> This leads into my next question.  Where do space battles occur?  Near<BR>
>> planets?  Far from planets?  I assume not in interstellar space, even<BR>
>> though the "Battle of Two Suns" was fought in deep space IIRC, from<BR>
>> Adventure One.<BR>
><BR>
>Given jump drive, most battles are going to be at or inside the 100<BR>
>diameter limit. For one thing, outside the limit, you *can't* force a<BR>
>fight. Inside it, the ship being attacked gets to choose between<BR>
>fighting and a possible misjump. Of course, if it doesn't have the<BR>
>fuel for a jump...<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
><BR>
>This applies only to "speed of light" weapons, of course. But it makes<BR>
>space combat different from any sort of combat ever seen on earth. <BR>
><BR>
Good point.<BR>
<BR>
>It also makes impact missiles essentially worthless. Thus the idea of<BR>
>the missile warheads being "bomb-pumped" x-ray lasers. The missiles<BR>
>dash in so they can aim better than the ship that fired them, but try<BR>
>to stay outside the "certain kill" range for the anti-missile lasers of<BR>
>the target.<BR>
><BR>
By the way, a few years back, I read a biography of Tellur.  The biographer<BR>
talked about Tellur's support for Star Wars and the X-ray laser.  According<BR>
to him, the last few nuclear tests were actually tests of bomb-pumped x-ray<BR>
lasers, just to see if in fact the expected "beam" was produced.  This guy<BR>
says that no amplification of X-rays was observed, which was a major<BR>
disapointment for all parties.  Of course, people can write anything in a<BR>
book to support their pre-conceived notions.  I got the distinct impression<BR>
the biographer didn't like Tellur or nuclear scientists.  I'm sorry I don't<BR>
remember the biographer's name and the book title, but I'll see if I can<BR>
find it at the library again.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>> I think there may be three types of space battles, Pass-thru battles where<BR>
>> two forces are closing at very high velocities, pursuit battles, one force<BR>
>> chasing another, and battles where one force is decelerating into orbit and<BR>
>> the defenders are at or close to orbital velocity.<BR>
><BR>
>Pass thru is an unlikely situation. Because you only get a few shots<BR>
>and then it's *hours* before you can get any more. It's only "likely"<BR>
>if a situation arises where ships are on their way to different in<BR>
>system destinations from different starting points, and the planetary<BR>
>alignments are such that they pass near enough to exchange shots. <BR>
><BR>
><BR>
>Chases can only last until the folks being chased can jump.<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
>Defending against invaders is the most likely "fleet to fleet" type<BR>
>battle. <BR>
><BR>
Thanks for the input.  It gives me a much better perspective on the situation.<BR>
<BR>
By the way, it's really great to discuss these Traveller questions with<BR>
other people.  I've been reffing Traveller for about 21 years, and in all<BR>
that time, I have never met anyone who even cared how things worked in the<BR>
game.  Setting up scientific puzzles is a total waste of time, because I<BR>
usually have to lead the players by the hand, since for all they know,<BR>
"Hydrogen is a rare element"  Bob Felton, the GM in KODT.  To be fair, my<BR>
latest group is by far the best I've ever had.  A few Air Force personnell,<BR>
Computer programmers, etc.<BR>
<BR>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<BR>
Dale Gyles<BR>
Black Eagle, MT<BR>
gyles@mtn-webtech.com<BR>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 22:55:52 -0600<BR>
From: Dale Gyles <gyles@mtn-webtech.com><BR>
Subject: Re:Damage Control<BR>
<BR>
At 08:03 PM 4/10/00 -0400, you wrote:<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
><BR>
>Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 18:15:32 EDT<BR>
>From: Damage169@cs.com<BR>
>Subject: Damage Control<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
>Damage control (DC) parties are routinely trained to deal with the<BR>
following: <BR>
>Firefighting, pumping water, evacuating casualties and remanning duty <BR>
>stations (especially weapons, steering and propulsion controls), repairing <BR>
>hull breaches, strengthening bulkheads near hull breaches, repairing <BR>
>electrical and electronic cable runs, repairing conduits/pipes (both air and <BR>
>fluids), repairing weapons (limited) and weapon reload systems, reload <BR>
>depleted magazines (especially PDF mags).<BR>
><BR>
>Many of the weapon-related duties are normally dealt with by gunner's mates <BR>
>and missile techs, but DC personnel need to know how to do at least the <BR>
>basics, just in case. After all, the sole mission of the DC system is to<BR>
keep <BR>
>the ship afloat and combat-ready. Not much will change in this regard once <BR>
>people start the Diaspora.<BR>
><BR>
>Doug G.<BR>
<BR>
This helps a lot.  My players will be needing to fix their ship shortly.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<BR>
Dale Gyles<BR>
Black Eagle, MT<BR>
gyles@mtn-webtech.com<BR>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 00:37:05 -0400<BR>
From: "DaveShayne" <daveshayne@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: near-C rocks (was Peter Newman's view of Traveller)<BR>
<BR>
>Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 09:38:06 -0400<BR>
>From: "Smith, Walter" <SmithW@hartwick.edu><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<snip><BR>
<BR>
>Can we talk about near-C rocks now?<BR>
><BR>
>Walt Smith<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
near-C rocks? I effing lovey those puppies. They've just got to be the<BR>
bestestmost Vargr Glampunk band in the whole of for ever. Expexially<BR>
their first single "Meteor Shower Shampoo" B/W "It's Death to be<BR>
Uncharismatic." Way more massively brilliant than "Female Aslan In<BR>
Sensible Shoes." Even if F.A.I.S.S. did headline the Marchespalooza<BR>
tour of 1113.<BR>
<BR>
Dave Shayne<BR>
<BR>
"Now the workers have struck for fame<BR>
    cuz Lennon's on sale again." - David Bowie<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 22:53:53 -0700<BR>
From: "James W. Lindsay" <jlindsay@home.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Basic Economics (was Re: Astronomy in the 57th Century)<BR>
<BR>
On Sun, 09 Apr 2000 20:58:11 -0800, Peter Newman wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Matthew Bond" <mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk> wrote<BR>
> <BR>
> > Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
> > >"The designs listed here are standard: that is, each ship type<BR>
> > >is mass-produced in shipyards throughout the Imperium, which<BR>
> > >provides economies of scale and saves the fees of a ship architect."<BR>
> > >[MT ImpEnc p 76]<BR>
> > ><BR>
> > >The canonical text does not say that these designs and others<BR>
> > >we have not mentioned are standard it says "these designs"<BR>
> > >are standard. Therefore no other designs are standard unless<BR>
> > >another subsequent canonical product says that they are standard.<BR>
>  <BR>
> > Peter, you are either a troll, or are *incredibly* obtuse...<BR>
> <BR>
> I am simply quoting the rules as _written_. I fail to see why<BR>
> this makes me a troll or "*incredibly* obtuse".<BR>
<BR>
It makes you appear obtuse because you seem only capable of interpreting<BR>
the rules on the surface using only the most basic of definitions.<BR>
Obviously, poetry would be wasted on you...<BR>
<BR>
> The sentence clearly reads "the designs listed here are standard."<BR>
> <BR>
> It does _not_ say that any other designs are standard.<BR>
<BR>
It also doesn't NOT say that any other designs are NON-standard.<BR>
<BR>
If Matthew Bond says that Peter Newman is "obtuse", by your logic no one<BR>
else on planet Earth could be defined as being obtuse based on what you<BR>
just typed above.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
James W. Lindsay             Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada<BR>
Website: http://members.home.net/jlindsay          ICQ: #7521644<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
Sumo Wrestling: survival of the fattest.<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 22:53:55 -0700<BR>
From: "James W. Lindsay" <jlindsay@home.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Basic Economics (was Re: Astronomy in the 57th Century)<BR>
<BR>
On Mon, 10 Apr 2000 05:35:20 -0800, Peter Newman wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> If you read a sentence which said "Standard US cars are manufactured<BR>
> by GM, Ford and Chrysler." wouldn't you interpret this statement<BR>
> as explicitly excluding other manufacturer's cars from being <BR>
> standard?<BR>
<BR>
No, I certainly would not.<BR>
<BR>
Thank you so very much for providing an example of my earlier point--<BR>
"writers sometimes make mistakes".  In this case, that writer is *you*.<BR>
You made a mistake, Peter.  Saturns are also 'standard US cars'-- being a<BR>
domestic product and a separate subsidiary from General Motors (not like<BR>
Pontiac, Oldsmobile, etc.).  Further more, Chrysler no longer makes cars<BR>
per se-- Daimler-Chrysler does.  That makes two mistakes.<BR>
<BR>
Peter Newman would interpret *your* sentence as gospel, without even<BR>
considering the obvious glaring error(s) that I found.  The rest of us,<BR>
OTOH, are gifted with a little more mental leeway, and would understand<BR>
that what you *meant* to say was that "all domestic cars made in the USA<BR>
are produced by GM, Ford, Daimler-Chrysler, and Saturn".<BR>
<BR>
The rules you are looking for, Peter, can be found in a host of excellent<BR>
Avalon Hill games.  Wargames are *much* more reliant on accurate rules than<BR>
roleplaying games.  Compare the rulebooks for Traveller and Third Reich to<BR>
see the difference.  The former includes statements like "referees are free<BR>
to disregard the rules" or "if there is a conflict with the rules, the<BR>
referee has the final say".  The latter includes precise, specific rules<BR>
regarding what can and cannot be done.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
James W. Lindsay             Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada<BR>
Website: http://members.home.net/jlindsay          ICQ: #7521644<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
Sumo Wrestling: survival of the fattest.<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 22:53:57 -0700<BR>
From: "James W. Lindsay" <jlindsay@home.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Peter's view of Traveller<BR>
<BR>
On Mon, 10 Apr 2000 09:56:21, Douglas E. Berry wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Let me give you the word from a guy who has written rules for Traveller: No<BR>
> game designer in his right mind believes that he has covered everything, or<BR>
> expects everyone to follow his every word like Holy Writ.  These are games<BR>
> of imagination, and require that everyone involved, including the Referee,<BR>
> exercise those facilities.<BR>
> <BR>
> Writing ACQ I came to many places where I just had to pass the ball to the<BR>
> Referee, and let them handle it to the best of their ability.  I'm<BR>
> reasonably sure that Marc Miller intended to do the same with MT.<BR>
<BR>
As co-writer, I would like to point out that we forgot to include rules for<BR>
grav-pong in ACQ.  I guess that settles *that* argument once and for all :)<BR>
<BR>
> By the way, regarding CT canon:  The MegaTraveller Box clearly states that<BR>
> MT is an *expansion* to CT.<BR>
> <BR>
> I really think you would hate being in my campaigns.  We go for hours<BR>
> without touching dice, and the rule books get a fine coating of dust.  But<BR>
> damn, we have fun.  That's what it's all about.<BR>
<BR>
And I've played in countless RPG campaigns which didn't have *any* rules<BR>
whatsoever-- and had a blast each and every time!  One of my favourite<BR>
characters consisted of a large walking humanoid construct the size of an<BR>
apartment building, populated with several thousand tiny gremlins.  Try<BR>
playing a "character" like *that* with any known rule system :)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
James W. Lindsay             Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada<BR>
Website: http://members.home.net/jlindsay          ICQ: #7521644<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
Sumo Wrestling: survival of the fattest.<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 02:17:21 -0700<BR>
From: Peter Miller <thegolem@mindless.com><BR>
Subject: Landgrab - Quopist\Lanth [LONG]<BR>
<BR>
Hello all,<BR>
<BR>
Here's my world writeup for Quopist\Lanth (in the Spinward Marches).  This <BR>
is what I've done so far: its split into four sections, each of increasing <BR>
detail.  The first is a quick perusal library data entry, the second a <BR>
Traveller's Aid Society entry and the third a portion of detailed IISS <BR>
survey.  The fourth section is 'out of character' and gives some adventure <BR>
ideas and reveals some planetary 'secrets'.<BR>
<BR>
I'm still working on more stuff, but wanted to get what I had done out to <BR>
the list.  It'll be on the web as soon as I have time to put together a <BR>
makeshift page to host it.<BR>
<BR>
BTW, just a warning, the only canon material here is the UWP (as reported <BR>
by Ethan Henry's java sector viewer).  I couldn't recall a publication <BR>
detailing Quopist so I took some liberties and used my own ideas :-)  Like <BR>
it or not, I'm a heretic.<BR>
<BR>
Regarding the XBoat mention in the system, I wrote this before taking a <BR>
look at the XBoat maps recently constructed by (IIRC Anthony <BR>
Jackson).  With this in mind, I envision Quopist as not necessarily being <BR>
part of the large Imperial-wide XBoat system, but a Spinward Marches style <BR>
courier mail service which then hooks up with XBoats to deliver news <BR>
further into the Imperium (like I said, heretic :-)<BR>
<BR>
So, without further adieu, enjoy:<BR>
<BR>
- ---BEGIN FILE---<BR>
There are three main ways of searching for information regarding<BR>
the planet: A simple Library data entry in most computers, a<BR>
consultation with the local Traveller's Aid Society building<BR>
library and a bit of research into the records of the Imperial<BR>
Interstellar Scout Service.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Library Data Entry (1115)<BR>
- ----- Quopist\Lanth\Spinward Marches<BR>
B150679-A<BR>
<BR>
Former Amber Zone classification.  Removed 1105 due to increased Imperial<BR>
presence.  Small planet; third in orbit about Quopist system primary.<BR>
Starport facilities rated as B-class located on sole orbiting body.  Planetary<BR>
facilities rated as X-class.  Xboat waystation located in system.<BR>
<BR>
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- <BR>
- ----<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
The Traveller's Aid Society (also includes Library Data)<BR>
The Guide to the Spinward Marches<BR>
- -------Quopist\Lanth<BR>
Quopist is a small planet; third in orbit around its primary star.  Formerly,<BR>
this planet had been classified as an Amber zone by TAS due to the hostilities<BR>
between three rival factions vying for control of the planet.  As of 1105,<BR>
Imperial authorities established a starport on Quopist's moon in order to<BR>
establish a stabilizing presence there.  Since that date, Amber zone<BR>
classification has been removed.  However, the Traveller's Aid Society still<BR>
advises against travel to the system; being that the rival factions on the<BR>
planet continue to bicker, and fight.  As these complexes (as they are known<BR>
locally) control access to the devastated starport as well as air and water on<BR>
the planet the instability of the political situation means that TAS would<BR>
advise traveller's to steer clear if possible.<BR>
<BR>
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- <BR>
- -----<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Imperial Interstellar Scout Service (also includes Library Data)<BR>
Quopist\Lanth, Spinward Marches<BR>
First surveyed in 680 during the aftermath of the Second Frontier War<BR>
, Quopist is a small backwater system, mainly famous for being a 'loser'<BR>
colony.  Established during the waning years of the Second Imperium, Quopist<BR>
was reputed to have large amounts of some sort of valuable mineral. However,<BR>
after attracting thousands of miners and would-be millionaires, the claim<BR>
proved to have been processed wrong, and in a second vast fortunes that people<BR>
had invested in the planet turned to nothing.  Many colonists, having put half<BR>
their lives into establishing the colony chose to stay, and the world, became<BR>
some what self-sufficient.  Underground hydroponics bays provide food, while<BR>
comets thrown into the poles provide ample water for human and other uses.<BR>
<BR>
When recontacted, the planet appeared to have survived the Long Night<BR>
relatively intact, at least in terms of technology.  The government, however<BR>
was not as well off.  Tight resources in the face of a lack of interstellar<BR>
traffic had caused the single colony government to collapse as rival factions<BR>
fought for control over the three main living complexes, houses some three<BR>
million people.  As of 680, the planet was controlled by three rival factions,<BR>
each in control of one of these complexes.  As the world was reabsorbed into<BR>
the Imperium, and interstellar trade resumed, the separate governments<BR>
coalesced naturally (and with some IISS assistance) into a single central<BR>
authority.  However, this proved a fragile solution.<BR>
<BR>
In 979, as the Third Frontier War broke out, and interest in the development<BR>
of systems such as Quopist waned, the limited resources of the planet once<BR>
again became an issue.  The central authority lost its power to internal<BR>
bickering and the growing power of various factions.  Once again, three<BR>
separate governments, in command of each complex rose to power.  Actual<BR>
warfare between the complexes was rather limited, but did result in the<BR>
destruction of the Imperial constructed and mandated B-class starport on<BR>
neutral territory on the small planet.  This destruction caused little<BR>
attention anywhere in the Imperium, as the war raged on, but the resulting<BR>
mess of a small landing pad did cause the Traveller's Aid Society to assign<BR>
the planet an Amber zone warning in 981.<BR>
<BR>
As the war came to an end in 986, news of the destruction of Imperial property<BR>
in the way of the starport on Quopist reached the attention of both the<BR>
finance departments and the scout service.  In order to return some order to<BR>
the system, which had been reallocated as an Xboat route waystation, the<BR>
Imperium constructed a B-class starport on the small Quopist moon, leaving the<BR>
bickering inhabitants to their own devices.  This action, combined with an<BR>
overall increased Imperial system presence as Xboat traffic and trade<BR>
increased caused the Traveller's Aid Society to remove its Amber zone warning<BR>
in 1105, although an advisory still exists.<BR>
<BR>
Currently, the political situation on the planet's surface remains similar to<BR>
its 979 structure.  Three rival factions control a roughly similar amount of<BR>
people in each of the three complexes on the planet's surface.  Water and food<BR>
are not a problem, and agents of each government find themselves bartering and<BR>
trading in the orbiting Imperial starport for anything else that can't be<BR>
procured or built on planet.  The ground starport remains devastated, a class<BR>
X installation that is to be used only in emergencies.  Each of the<BR>
governments has a launchpad a port of its own, but their are heavy<BR>
restrictions on use of these ports by foreign craft.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- <BR>
- ------<BR>
<BR>
Traveller<BR>
Secrets, Lies and Points of Interest - Info for the Referee<BR>
<BR>
The government of Complex Mark II has been receiving subsidies from the<BR>
Imperium for the last few years, since 1105.  This is mainly due to an<BR>
Imperial desire to see the necessity of Imperial money maintaining the<BR>
starport to disappear.  Thus, the Imperium would very much like to see the<BR>
governments once again coalesce under a single authority, regardless of who<BR>
that might be.<BR>
<BR>
Another one of the Complexes, Mark III has uncovered in recent years evidence<BR>
that seems to point to the fact that the original claim that the planet has<BR>
minerals worth mining may in fact be true.  It appears that the comets crashed<BR>
into the poles to provide the colonists water may in fact be masking the<BR>
signals of some valuable materials buried in the poles of the planetoid.<BR>
However, in order to investigate these claims, the Complex would have to<BR>
embark on a very conspicuous investigation of the polar areas, potentially<BR>
raising the ire of the other complexes would may think they are trying to<BR>
someone sabotage or steal the water supply - a traditionally neutral location.<BR>
<BR>
Adventure Ideas<BR>
One of the complexes may learn of Complex II's Imperial involvement and might<BR>
hire the players to learn the truth behind these subsidies.  If the players<BR>
can expose the Imperial involvement to the media and provide concrete evidence<BR>
of it, it would unite Mark III and I against II, and also mean the end of any<BR>
Imperial money flowing to the planet.  While, this may damage the colony as a<BR>
whole, each of the complexes is looking out for itself and would rather have<BR>
them al fail than be under the rule of the others.<BR>
<BR>
Expanding on the mining opportunities which may exist discussed above, Complex<BR>
Mark III might wish to hire outsiders to conduct a search of the polar areas.<BR>
This would avoid any blame being placed on the complex government if anything<BR>
went wrong and would also be a much more subtle way of going about things.  If<BR>
the players can discover where the mining deposits are and if they are of any<BR>
value they could be in line to receive a cut of the profits when this ancient<BR>
scheme finally comes online.<BR>
__________________________Peter J. Miller<BR>
thegolem@mindless.com        ICQ #5294589<BR>
<BR>
"Loneliness is not a phase..."<BR>
          - 'Angry Chair', Alice in Chains<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2291<BR>
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Traveller-digest      Tuesday, April 11 2000      Volume 1999 : Number 2292<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Peter Newman's view of Traveller<BR>
Re: Astronomy in the 57th Century<BR>
Re:  Basic Economics (was Re: Astronomy in the 57th Century)<BR>
Re: Adventure, I got an Adventure, Yee Ha etc<BR>
Re: Peter's view of Traveller<BR>
Re: Far Frontiers Sector Data?<BR>
Re: Peter's Traveller Universe<BR>
Re:MT rules straitjacket<BR>
Re: the war in Pennsylvania<BR>
Re: Basic Economics (was Re: Astronomy in the 57th Century)<BR>
Re: Re: Basic Economics (was Re: Astronomy in the 57th Century)<BR>
Re: Basic Economics (was Re: Astronomy in the 57th Century)<BR>
Re: US Constitution framer's intent (was Re: Peter's view of Traveller<BR>
Re: Peter's view of Traveller<BR>
Re: An alternate TL definition (heresy warning)<BR>
Re: Langrab - Quopist/Lanth<BR>
Re: US Constitution framer's intent (was Re: Peter's view of Traveller<BR>
Re: Peter's View of Traveller<BR>
Re: Basic Economics (was Re: Astronomy in the 57th Century)<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 22:22:42 -0800<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Peter Newman's view of Traveller<BR>
<BR>
"Smith, Walter" <SmithW@hartwick.edu> wrote<BR>
<BR>
> Peter, I agree that the tone of my earlier post was insulting.  I<BR>
> apologize, it was out of line.<BR>
<BR>
Apology accepted.<BR>
<BR>
> We have very different, quite incompatible philosophies about the<BR>
> intent and best use of the Traveller rule sets.  Due to essays, notes<BR>
> and messages published by the authors, I believe that my philosophy is<BR>
> closer to what the authors intended.<BR>
<BR>
I would not be surprised if your reading were in fact<BR>
closer to what they intended but I was trying to discuss<BR>
what they actually wrote especially in the introductory<BR>
materiel on p5-6 of the Players Manual & the Referees<BR>
Manual.<BR>
<BR>
> Can we talk about near-C rocks now?<BR>
<BR>
Why use rocks? Metal hulled ships have less waste space<BR>
and weigh less therefore they can probably go faster. :)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 22:38:17 -0800<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Astronomy in the 57th Century<BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com> wrote<BR>
<BR>
> >It sure is but Traveller has a referee, not a storyteller.<BR>
> >They are different roles. In some ways a storyteller is<BR>
> >better but in some ways a referee is better.<BR>
<BR>
> Take for example the bookshop in _Twilight's Peak_...  the entire adventure<BR>
> hinges on the players entering the book store and buying the Octagon<BR>
> history.  To get that to happen the Referee has to engage in some creative<BR>
> storytelling and player work.  The first time I ran that adventure, I<BR>
> called one of my players hours before the game and we invented an "uncle"<BR>
> whose birthday was approaching, and who loved old books.<BR>
<BR>
Twilight's Peak is a great adventure. I am not saying that<BR>
games with Referees are more fun then games with Storytellers<BR>
I am saying that they have fewer problems with willing<BR>
suspension of disbelief and that the MT Traveller rules<BR>
specify an impartial Referee presumably because that is what<BR>
the designers wanted Traveller to have.<BR>
<BR>
> >> Well, since I wrote Strike! for JTAS #26, am I the final authority on<BR>
> >>labor relations inside the Third Imperium?<BR>
> ><BR>
> >That's Marc job but until and unless he does so you will <BR>
> >do.<BR>
<BR>
> That was sarcasm.  Strike! is no more an essay on labor relations than<BR>
> First In is an advanced course in astronomy.  <BR>
<BR>
Yes but given the lack of any other coverage you're the<BR>
closest thing we have.<BR>
<BR>
> But you've yet to give me a compelling reason *why* you feel that just<BR>
> because something is not mentioned, that it is somehow forbidden.<BR>
<BR>
When the MT rules say that 'these' ships are the standard<BR>
where the CT rules said that other unmentioned ships might<BR>
be the standard as well I read this as stating that the<BR>
designers thought it over and decided that in the Third Imperium <BR>
setting circa 1117 these ships were the only ones that are<BR>
standard throughout the whole Imperium. Therefore they deliberately<BR>
eliminated the text alluding to the possibility of other ships<BR>
being standard as a means of explicitly denying that possibility.<BR>
YMMV.<BR>
 <BR>
> AFAICR, MegaTraveller has no canonical mechanism for generating rebels or<BR>
> terrorist groups.  Therefore, they don't exist?  Except on the worlds that<BR>
> already have them?  Players read books too!<BR>
<BR>
Of course they exist. But if the MT rules said "The terrorist<BR>
groups listed here are standard: that is, each terrorist group<BR>
is mass-produced on planets throughout the Imperium." and<BR>
then went on to list 24 terrorist groups then yes I would read<BR>
that as denying that any terrorist groups other than those<BR>
24 were standard throughout the Imperium. <BR>
<BR>
To me 'standard' ships are much like mega corporations: there<BR>
are only so many and if you're not on the list then you are <BR>
not a mega corp. or standard ship in the OTU.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 23:00:12 -0800<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re:  Basic Economics (was Re: Astronomy in the 57th Century)<BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
<BR>
> >While most sets of game rules explicitly state that they are <BR>
> >written as a framework the MT rules, as written, do not.<BR>
> >Therefore the MT rules are a straitjacket not a framework.<BR>
> <BR>
> You have got to be kidding me.  I'm serious, do you really believe this?<BR>
<BR>
I should probably recheck the MT designer notes that IIRC<BR>
were in an issue of TD. If they say otherwise I would change<BR>
my mind. Barring that then yes that is what I believe. Most<BR>
other games, and all other Traveller rules sets specifically<BR>
note that the rules are guidelines. Since the MT rules do not<BR>
I read them as literally as I would read a numbered set<BR>
of war game rules:<BR>
<BR>
19.2 The Vercingatorix piece may not be moved within<BR>
artillery range (3 hexes) of a fort. It may be moved<BR>
within missile range of an archer or slinger unit but is<BR>
subject to elimination by successful missile fire.<BR>
<BR>
Since this rule paragraph from Caeser at Alesia (AH, 1976)<BR>
says that the Vercingatorix piece _may_ not be moved<BR>
within 3 hexes of a fort I would not allow the Vercingatorix<BR>
piece to be moved within 3 hexes of a fort by a Gaul<BR>
player who was bored and wanted to throw the game. If a Gaul<BR>
player tried to do this I would read the rule to him, if<BR>
he persisted in trying to do it I would indicate that he<BR>
was cheating.<BR>
<BR>
> I have to ask... what in the name of Eris do you think will happen to you<BR>
> if you declare something canon in yopur MT universe?  Lightning?  Near-C<BR>
> rocks?<BR>
<BR>
Before running a non canon game I feel that one ought to<BR>
make it crystal clear to all players that this is a non canon<BR>
game so that the players will not act improperly due to<BR>
a player playing as if he were in the canonical Traveller<BR>
Universe. Thus if in your Traveller Universe Emperor Strephon<BR>
got married 20 years later than in the OTU you ought to make<BR>
sure the players all know this because their (Imperial)<BR>
characters would almost certainly know when the Emperor<BR>
got married. If on the other hand in your Traveller universe<BR>
one or more of Yaskodray's grandchildren survived the Final<BR>
War you are under no obligations to inform the players of this<BR>
because their characters would never know. However before <BR>
starting the game you should still note to the players that<BR>
YTU varies from the OTU.<BR>
<BR>
I suggest sort of a Traveller Canon Miranda warning:<BR>
<BR>
"You have the right to not play in my TU. If you choose to<BR>
play anything you do can and may be held against you.<BR>
<BR>
You have the right to an understanding of my TU. as complete<BR>
as your character would have. If you are unable to understand<BR>
canon a translator will be provided."<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 09:08:36 +0200<BR>
From: Holger Kadlez <paradin@gmx.de><BR>
Subject: Re: Adventure, I got an Adventure, Yee Ha etc<BR>
<BR>
YES  YES  YES YES<BR>
PLEASE PLEASE ....<BR>
<BR>
Yes, I would like to get it.<BR>
Please could you send it to me ?<BR>
:)<BR>
<BR>
Bye,<BR>
Paradin<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Karen and Michael Hughes schrieb:<BR>
> <BR>
> I've written up an adventure for a current campaign, which I now have to<BR>
> 'junk' because it doesn't fit. So for all you adventure collectors out<BR>
> there, would anyone want a look? I'm HTML incapable, otherwise I'd zip it to<BR>
> a web site. So I guess if anyone wants to scope it out, give me an email.<BR>
> <BR>
> Here's the synopsis.<BR>
> <BR>
> INTERDICTION<BR>
> <BR>
> The Travellers' have been hired to transport a load of arms to an<BR>
> interdicted asteroid settlement. But they discover much, much more. Instead<BR>
> they are transporting a bomb with which to destroy the port, behind the plot<BR>
> a corporation denying the settlement's ore and ships to a local refinery in<BR>
> order to drive it out of business.<BR>
> <BR>
> There are no deck-plans (all that's needed is a merchant ship deck-plan),<BR>
> and being all laid out purty it comes to 30 odd pages in length.<BR>
> <BR>
> I'd really like opinions (all healthy flaw pointing gratefully received).<BR>
> <BR>
> Michael<BR>
> <BR>
> PS It's written up like a DGP Mega Traveller adventure but uses a modified<BR>
> task resolution system (which is readily reverse engineerable back to MT or<BR>
> other Traveller versions).<BR>
> <BR>
> PPS There is the odd swear word and what have you for those sensitive types.<BR>
> Nothing though you wouldn't see on a certain Congressional Hearing web site<BR>
> featuring cigars.<BR>
> <BR>
> PPPS No, not tobacco industry related.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 23:14:39 -0800<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Peter's view of Traveller<BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com> wrote<BR>
<BR>
> >It says _may_ be available not _are_ available. It also<BR>
> >says in various localities (not Imperium wide). therefore<BR>
> >these designs do not meet the 2nd MT definition of<BR>
> >standard (commonly available Imperium wide). That sentence <BR>
> >uses standard in the sense of (gets a class<BR>
> >discount). <BR>
<BR>
> I give up.  Peter, over in Usenet I deal with fanatics of every stripe on<BR>
> alt.conspiracy. You have managed to exceed their ability to be pedantic by<BR>
> a country mile. You have read an entire paragraph into a single word.<BR>
<BR>
You don't see 'may' and 'are' as being vastly different in<BR>
meaning? For example:<BR>
<BR>
Aliens may be visiting Earth.<BR>
<BR>
Aliens are visiting Earth.<BR>
<BR>
The first merely admits the possibility, the second asserts<BR>
it as a fact.<BR>
<BR>
> Let me give you the word from a guy who has written rules for Traveller: No<BR>
> game designer in his right mind believes that he has covered everything, or<BR>
> expects everyone to follow his every word like Holy Writ.  These are games<BR>
> of imagination, and require that everyone involved, including the Referee,<BR>
> exercise those facilities.<BR>
> <BR>
> Writing ACQ I came to many places where I just had to pass the ball to the<BR>
> Referee, and let them handle it to the best of their ability.  I'm<BR>
> reasonably sure that Marc Miller intended to do the same with MT.<BR>
> <BR>
> By the way, regarding CT canon:  The MegaTraveller Box clearly states that<BR>
> MT is an *expansion* to CT.<BR>
<BR>
Box canon is inferior to rules canon. It is descriptive<BR>
text whose intent is top briefly describe and explain the game.<BR>
Actual rules text is of higher canonicity.<BR>
<BR>
If however you take the box as canon I note: "Megatraveller is <BR>
a state-of-the-art role playing technology revision of Traveller.<BR>
It is compatible with, but an improvement upon, the basic Traveller<BR>
role-playing game." [MT box, bottom lower back]<BR>
<BR>
To me "revision" and "improvement" does not equal *expansion*.<BR>
<BR>
> I really think you would hate being in my campaigns.  We go for hours<BR>
> without touching dice, and the rule books get a fine coating of dust.  But<BR>
> damn, we have fun.  That's what it's all about.<BR>
<BR>
I agree that this is what games should be all about, unfortunately<BR>
it is not what the letter of the text of MT says it is all about.<BR>
<BR>
I have played in games that often go 1+ hour (although not usually<BR>
hours) without touching the dice. As all good Traveller Referees<BR>
should know the rules cold backwards and forwards and all good<BR>
Traveller Players should be familiar with the rules and should<BR>
accept the Referees rulings there is nothing wrong with dust<BR>
covered rule books.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 00:22:29 -0500<BR>
From: Jimmy Simpson <nimrod@santech.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Far Frontiers Sector Data?<BR>
<BR>
At 06:54 PM 4/10/00 -0500, you wrote:<BR>
>  I have a copy of the manuscript for the Far Frontiers Sector supplement,<BR>
>  which was never published.  Is there a particular world or subsector you are<BR>
>  looking for, or were you looking for a complete set?<BR>
><BR>
>  BTW, is there any interest in seeing this stuff get published?  Print or<BR>
>  electronic?<BR>
I would love a copy also.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Jimmy Simpson<BR>
	nimrodd@fastlane.net<BR>
"Cannot say.<BR>
  Saying, I would know.<BR>
  Do not know.<BR>
  So cannot say."<BR>
		-Zathras (Babylon 5)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 23:21:30 -0800<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Peter's Traveller Universe<BR>
<BR>
Chris Dixon" <cdixon@airfoiltech.com> wrote<BR>
<BR>
> My question to you would be: do you and your player group have fun when<BR>
> playing the game under such a draconian interpretation of the rules?  <BR>
<BR>
I am usually a player not a Referee.<BR>
<BR>
I've reffed CT in the (distant) past. I almost reffed TNE.<BR>
I've reffed GURPS but not G: Trav. But I've never reffed<BR>
MT, the version in question.<BR>
<BR>
> I'll accept that my deviation from the "canon" of the printed word may<BR>
> or may not be supported by the books, however, in my mind it's a lot<BR>
> more fun to have a GM who's hands aren't tied (by choice or not) from<BR>
> sticking to the rules verbatim.<BR>
<BR>
I agree about not tying the GM's hands but Trav has a<BR>
Referee and the rules tie his hands. <BR>
<BR>
Moreover sticking to the rules makes the players more<BR>
comfortable and familiar and enhances their role playing<BR>
experience. The Ref is in charge but the players should<BR>
have fun too. For many players having fun is easier if<BR>
we can get into character and getting into charecter can<BR>
be easier if the rules are less ambiguous.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 23:25:00 -0800<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re:MT rules straitjacket<BR>
<BR>
Kagehira@aol.com wrote<BR>
<BR>
> P.S. btw I'd rate SJG canon above IG canon as it runs by Marc first, whereas <BR>
> IG 'canon' did not.<BR>
<BR>
I'd rate SJG quality above IG quality but GURPS Trav is<BR>
_officially_ a variant. T4 was not a variant. Therefore<BR>
it is more canonical. However (unlike SJG) much IG<BR>
Traveller fails to correspond with more canonical material<BR>
(Mt, CT, TNE) therefore all the bad IG stuff has already been<BR>
bumped off the canon list.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 00:44:52 -0700<BR>
From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@worldnet.att.net><BR>
Subject: Re: the war in Pennsylvania<BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> At 12:10 PM 4/10/2000 -0700, you wrote:<BR>
> >Now that I think for a moment, I recall that when I was in YMCA<BR>
> >Youth Government in Boise, Idaho, in 1975, the last act of our<BR>
> >state legislature was to declare war on South Dakota.  I don't<BR>
> >remember the reason put into the resolution.<BR>
><BR>
> At my last Student Senate meet in 1984, we outlawed pretentious Jesuit Prep<BR>
> schools.  The vote was 98-2.<BR>
<BR>
The closest I ever came to Student government was plotting the violent overthrow<BR>
<BR>
of mine...<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
Evyn...<BR>
<BR>
C-Space home http://home.att.net/~wmacdude/<BR>
<BR>
Get six jolly cowboys to carry my coffin<BR>
Get six pretty maidens to bear up my pall<BR>
Bunches of roses all over my coffin<BR>
Roses to deaden the clods as they fall<BR>
 Laredo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 23:39:12 -0800<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Basic Economics (was Re: Astronomy in the 57th Century)<BR>
<BR>
"Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net> wrote<BR>
<BR>
> The MegaTraveller<BR>
> Imperial Encyclopedia, page 76 clearly states the definition of what is<BR>
> meant by "standard", and it looks nothing like what you're claiming. To say<BR>
> a ship is standard, according to MegaTraveller is to say that it is produced<BR>
> in shipyards throughout the Imperium, which saves on architects fees and<BR>
> allows a lower price per ship due to the quantities manufactured.<BR>
<BR>
It says that they are produced at shipyards throughout the<BR>
Imperium. The Imperium is a big place with a lot of<BR>
shipyards. Is it surprising to learn that only a short<BR>
list (24 ships & craft) of ships are produced throughout<BR>
the Imperium? Standard ships may well have standard parts.<BR>
Type A Starports probably have all the manuals for the<BR>
standard ships. Note that annual maintenance costs are<BR>
a percentage of ship costs, since standard ships are cheaper<BR>
maintenance of standard ships is also cheaper.<BR>
<BR>
> Actually, the term "rule" with respect to a game follows the general meaning<BR>
> of the word, which is a prescribed *guide* for an activity.<BR>
<BR>
In most of the more commonly played games (chess,<BR>
bridge, poker) there are different versions of the<BR>
game with different rules and house rules but there still<BR>
exist a set of written rules (Hoyle, Int Chess Federation<BR>
etc) that are generally accepted as the 'Official" rules.<BR>
If public domain games like chess can have standard rules<BR>
why can't Traveller.<BR>
<BR>
If you read a rule saying: "The standard chess pieces are<BR>
the king, the queen, the bishop, etc." would you assume<BR>
that other standard pieces not mentioned in the rules<BR>
also existed?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> >While most sets of game rules explicitly state that they are<BR>
> >written as a framework the MT rules, as written, do not.<BR>
> <BR>
> I would suspect the reason they didn't specifically state that fact was that<BR>
> they thought that people who might pick up the boxed set would understand<BR>
> how the term "rule" is used with respect to games.<BR>
<BR>
This assumes facts not in evidence. Even if it is a true<BR>
assumption of the designers assumptions said assumption<BR>
on their part was erroneous.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 23:46:59 -0800<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Re: Basic Economics (was Re: Astronomy in the 57th Century)<BR>
<BR>
"Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com> wrote<BR>
<BR>
> pnewman@gci.net issued forth:<BR>
> <BR>
> > The canonical text does not say that these designs and others<BR>
> > we have not mentioned are standard it says "these designs"<BR>
> > are standard. Therefore no other designs are standard unless<BR>
> > another subsequent canonical product says that they are standard.<BR>
> <BR>
> So across 11,000 (eleven thousand) systems, this handful of ships are the<BR>
> only "standard" craft in production? Absolutely ridiculous.<BR>
<BR>
The larger the Imperium is the less likely it is that a<BR>
design will be standard across it. As the Imperium gets<BR>
larger standardization becomes more valuable. It is<BR>
the very size of the Imperium that makes the short list<BR>
plausible. <BR>
<BR>
> There is no way any game company would ever produce a full listing of<BR>
> "standard" designs for ships in the 3I, as we would be inundated with tons<BR>
> of material (if printed on paper), and that without any pics, deckplans, or<BR>
> descriptions. Think about an exhaustive description of standard vehicles<BR>
> from Terra circa now. Heck, restrict yourself to a single type like<BR>
> aircraft, or seaships.<BR>
<BR>
Earth is not equal to the Third Imperium. It is much, much,<BR>
much easier for a design to be standard across one planet<BR>
then for it to be standard across 11,000+ planets.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 23:49:11 -0800<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Basic Economics (was Re: Astronomy in the 57th Century)<BR>
<BR>
Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com> wrote<BR>
<BR>
> Peter Newman wrote:<BR>
> > "Standard US cars are manufactured by GM, Ford and Chrysler." <BR>
<BR>
> Then who manufacturers the Automatic cars?<BR>
<BR>
Smith and Wesson just stopped doing so. Who besides<BR>
Colt still does so? :)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 00:09:34 -0800<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: US Constitution framer's intent (was Re: Peter's view of Traveller<BR>
<BR>
Qstor@aol.com wrote<BR>
<BR>
> stevedaniels@portcaddo.com writes:<BR>
> << Can we argue instead about whether the US Constitution should<BR>
>  be interpreted strictly referring only to 'framer's intent', or more<BR>
>  liberally referring the world today?<BR>
<BR>
> Whatever the late William Brennan would have wanted is fine by me :)<BR>
<BR>
The important question is no what William Brennan<BR>
would have wanted the important question is what<BR>
Walter Brennan, character actor, would have wanted.<BR>
<BR>
Whenever I have any doubts about the US Constitution I<BR>
never refer to COurt Decisions or the writing of the<BR>
founders I simply say "What would Walter do?"<BR>
<BR>
I plan to start a line of apparel and buttons with the<BR>
WWWD? logo on them to help encourage others to follow<BR>
the ways of this great man. :)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 00:18:29 -0800<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Peter's view of Traveller<BR>
<BR>
Bolie Williams IV <bolie@io.com> wrote<BR>
<BR>
> Smash the Icons!  Burn the Iconoclasts!  Kill the Infidels!<BR>
<BR>
Thou shalt have no other games before Traveller.<BR>
<BR>
Thou shalt not worship graven game systems. <BR>
<BR>
> Oh, wait... I thought this was game.  This discussion looks<BR>
> like it should be on soc.religion.traveller...<BR>
<BR>
The only person I know on the TML (besides myself) who <BR>
belongs on soc.religion.traveller is that counter-revolutionary<BR>
revanchist CT scum Steven Hudson of the: "There is no game<BR>
but Traveller and High Guard is its product." screed.<BR>
<BR>
> BTW, GURPS Traveller is the current edition of Traveller.<BR>
> On page 177 of the GURPS Basic Set, it states:<BR>
> The GM is the final authority.  Rules are guidelines... the<BR>
> designer's opinion about how things out to go.  But (as long<BR>
> he is fair and consistent) the GM can change any number, any<BR>
> cost, any rules.  His word is law.<BR>
<BR>
> Page 7 of Classic Traveller Book 1 states:<BR>
> The referee must settle disputes about the rules (and may use<BR>
> his own imagination while doing so, rather than strictly<BR>
> adhering to the letter of the rules).<BR>
<BR>
> P. 154 of Marc Miller's Traveller (T4) main book states:<BR>
> Remember, when it comes to how the rules work and how everyone<BR>
> else in the universe responds to the actions of the PCs, you<BR>
> are in charge!  As long as you are a benevolent dictator,<BR>
> everyone will have a good time.<BR>
<BR>
> I see a pattern here... the rules are just guidelines,<BR>
> not hard and fast.  The referee is the ultimate authority<BR>
> and can contradict the written rules.<BR>
<BR>
In GURPS Trav, Ct, & T4 (and TNE too IIRC) this is correct.<BR>
However _MT_ lacks such a statement. I am suggesting that<BR>
such a lack is deliberate others are suggesting that it is<BR>
accidental.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 00:52:03 -0800<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: An alternate TL definition (heresy warning)<BR>
<BR>
Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com> wrote<BR>
<BR>
> On looking at what a primitive country looks like in the real world, I've<BR>
> come to a conclusion: TL does not indicate what is available in the area.<BR>
> TL does not indicate what is manufactured in the area.  TL does not even<BR>
> necessarily indicate the knowledge of the area.  TL is much simpler.<BR>
<BR>
> TL indicates how much money people have.  <BR>
<BR>
I'd tend to agree that this is a practical way of making<BR>
the distinction. In GURPS rules terms what is the difference<BR>
between the Poor and the Primitive Disadvantages? Is players<BR>
starting wealth based on what TL they are?<BR>
<BR>
> A low TL area will tend to use <BR>
> cheap equipment, likely human-powered, with minimal electronics, bells and<BR>
> whistles, and the like.  A high TL area will tend to be electronics-mad.<BR>
> In addition, research is usually only done in the wealthy, high-tech areas...<BR>
> but that's no big deal.  Here's a simple mapping I came up with, for TL<BR>
> vs per capita GWP:<BR>
<BR>
> TTL 0   1   2   3   4   5   6   7   8   9   A   B   C   D   E   F   G<BR>
> GTL 1   4   5   5   5   6   6   7   8   9   9   9   10  10  11  12  12<BR>
> Cr  30  60  125 180 250 350 500 1k  2k  25h 3k  4k  5k  7k  10k 14k 20k<BR>
<BR>
Actually in GURPS Traveller canon TTL 16 = GTL 13. I think<BR>
this is an error (although perhaps needed to explain the<BR>
Darrians). I'd say that TTL 17 = GTL 13. Darrian was TTL<BR>
17 (as evidenced by their TL 17 air rafts) not TTL 16. Thus<BR>
the canonical TTL 16 Imperial worlds are still GTL 12. If<BR>
you wish to distinguish them you could make TL 12 advanced<BR>
ship hulls available at TTL 16 but not at TTL 15.<BR>
<BR>
I agree with your basic premise but note that these figures do<BR>
not match previous canonical GURPS figures. I suggest<BR>
<BR>
GURPS TL	Basic Wealth  	 Basic Wealth	<BR>
	   (in 2000 dollars)  (in CR Imp)<BR>
 0		  125 ($kins)[1]	   40<BR>
 1		  250				   80<BR>
 2		  500 [2]			  160	<BR>
 3		 1,000[3]			  330<BR>
 4		 2,000			  660<BR>
 5		 4,000           	1,300<BR>
 6		 8,000			2,700<BR>
 7		16,000 [4]			5,300<BR>
 8		24,000 [5]		     8,000<BR>
 9		36,000		    12,000 	<BR>
10		54,000		    18,000 	<BR>
11		81,000		    27,000<BR>
12	    120,000		    40,000<BR>
<BR>
[1] GURPS Ice Age gives GTL wealth as $100 skins<BR>
[2] GURPS Rome gives Roman TL 2 starting wealth as $1,000, I am<BR>
assuming this is do to Roman wealth<BR>
[3] Basic Rules & 20 other places<BR>
[4] Basic Rules lists TL 7 wealth as $15,000 1987 US dollars <BR>
which is more than $16,000 2000 dollars<BR>
[5] I'm arbitrarily assuming wealth growth above TL 7 is half<BR>
that of TL's 0 to 7 this is not necessarily correct but<BR>
helps keep the players poorer and can be explained as being<BR>
caused my more economic growth above GTL 7 going to non<BR>
monetary benefits.<BR>
<BR>
In CT canon CR 1 was approximately 1 1977 US dollar. There's<BR>
been lots of inflation since 1977. I suggest that one Imperial<BR>
Credit = $3. These figures do vary from Striker Canon but they <BR>
do not vary much at the more common (TTL's of 7 - 12) Imperial <BR>
TL's.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 19:13:18 +1000<BR>
From: "Katharine Whitchurch" <katts@globalfreeway.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re: Langrab - Quopist/Lanth<BR>
<BR>
> From: Peter Miller <thegolem@mindless.com><BR>
> Subject: Landgrab - Quopist\Lanth [LONG]<BR>
><BR>
> Hello all,<BR>
><BR>
> Here's my world writeup for Quopist\Lanth (in the Spinward Marches).  This<BR>
> is what I've done so far: its split into four sections, each of increasing<BR>
> detail.  The first is a quick perusal library data entry, the second a<BR>
> Traveller's Aid Society entry and the third a portion of detailed IISS<BR>
> survey.  The fourth section is 'out of character' and gives some adventure<BR>
> ideas and reveals some planetary 'secrets'.<BR>
><BR>
> I'm still working on more stuff, but wanted to get what I had done out to<BR>
> the list.  It'll be on the web as soon as I have time to put together a<BR>
> makeshift page to host it.<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
I like it. Do you have any details about the governments of Alpha, Beta and<BR>
Gamma ^k^k^k^k One, Two and Three complexes ?<BR>
<BR>
Ian Whitchurch<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 05:30:25 -0400<BR>
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: US Constitution framer's intent (was Re: Peter's view of Traveller<BR>
<BR>
Peter Newman wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> The important question is no what William Brennan<BR>
> would have wanted the important question is what<BR>
> Walter Brennan, character actor, would have wanted.<BR>
<BR>
What would Walter say?  "Wee'll heed 'em off at the pass!"<BR>
<BR>
No, wait.  That's Gabby Hayes.  Walter is "Real McCoys"<BR>
and that pathetic western where the grandfather and grandson<BR>
look for the middle one?<BR>
<BR>
bloo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 02:03:11 -0800<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Peter's View of Traveller<BR>
<BR>
I have changed my mind about MT rules being a straitjacket<BR>
(although I still believe that only the ships in the Imperial<BR>
Encyclopedia  are standard). Those of you who said that<BR>
the MT rules were intended to be guidelines were apparently<BR>
correct.<BR>
<BR>
"The [MT] rules are meant to be a guide an an inspiration, <BR>
not a ball and chain. I'm a firm believer in the most<BR>
important rule of all: keep the adventure moving at a<BR>
lively pace, even if it means ignoring the rulebook from<BR>
time to time. If everyone is having a good time [1] and the <BR>
results seem reasonable, why worry that the ATV really only<BR>
had a 72% chance of crossing the vacuum plain instead of an<BR>
84% chance." - "Traveller: The Next Generation" by Joe Fugate <BR>
(Chief MT Rules Editor) TD #11 p. 34.<BR>
<BR>
My current conclusion is that the elimination of the CT<BR>
text giving the Referee freedom from MT was an editorial<BR>
error, and not a deliberate change in game design. This <BR>
may explain why text of a similar nature was included in <BR>
TNE, T4, and G:T.<BR>
<BR>
We now resume our standard flame free discussion of the<BR>
use of near c rocks to eliminate Feudal Technocracies<BR>
set up by Aslan females in comfortable shoes using<BR>
relic TL 14 Rule of Man equipment.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 02:19:08 -0800<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Basic Economics (was Re: Astronomy in the 57th Century)<BR>
<BR>
James W. Lindsay" <jlindsay@home.com> wrote<BR>
<BR>
> > If you read a sentence which said "Standard US cars are manufactured<BR>
> > by GM, Ford and Chrysler." wouldn't you interpret this statement<BR>
> > as explicitly excluding other manufacturer's cars from being <BR>
> > standard?<BR>
<BR>
> No, I certainly would not.<BR>
<BR>
> Thank you so very much for providing an example of my earlier point--<BR>
> "writers sometimes make mistakes".  In this case, that writer is *you*.<BR>
> You made a mistake, Peter.  Saturns are also 'standard US cars'-- being a<BR>
> domestic product and a separate subsidiary from General Motors (not like<BR>
> Pontiac, Oldsmobile, etc.).  Further more, Chrysler no longer makes cars<BR>
> per se-- Daimler-Chrysler does.  That makes two mistakes.<BR>
<BR>
I did not claim that the statement "Standard US cars are manufactured<BR>
by GM, Ford and Chrysler." was _correct_ I only suggested that<BR>
it was _unambiguous_. Nor did I claim that said sentence was <BR>
written in 2000, it may have been written before Daimler-Chysler<BR>
was formed, or even before Saturn was formed. Since MT was <BR>
printed in 1987 and my example sentence was a mere paraphrase<BR>
of MT text the logical conclusion would be that the example<BR>
paraphrase was also a 1987 statement.  Nor did it define standard. <BR>
Nor do I necessarily agree that Saturn is all that different <BR>
than GM (I own a Saturn) I'd say that In Traveller terms Saturn <BR>
= GM.<BR>
<BR>
> Peter Newman would interpret *your* sentence as gospel, without even<BR>
> considering the obvious glaring error(s) that I found.  The rest of us,<BR>
> OTOH, are gifted with a little more mental leeway, and would understand<BR>
> that what you *meant* to say was that "all domestic cars made in the USA<BR>
> are produced by GM, Ford, Daimler-Chrysler, and Saturn".<BR>
<BR>
Why are you being so rude and presumptuous. You have no way<BR>
of knowing what I meant.<BR>
<BR>
> The rules you are looking for, Peter, can be found in a host of excellent<BR>
> Avalon Hill games.  <BR>
<BR>
> Wargames are *much* more reliant on accurate rules than<BR>
> roleplaying games.  Compare the rulebooks for Traveller and Third Reich to<BR>
> see the difference.  The former includes statements like "referees are free<BR>
> to disregard the rules" or "if there is a conflict with the rules, the<BR>
> referee has the final say".  The latter includes precise, specific rules<BR>
> regarding what can and cannot be done.<BR>
<BR>
As did some role playing games.<BR>
<BR>
Nor did MT rules did not include the statement that "referees<BR>
are free to disregard the rules" However as I have just<BR>
noticed by checking the designers notes Joe Fugate stated that<BR>
this sentiment was intended.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2292<BR>
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Traveller-digest      Tuesday, April 11 2000      Volume 1999 : Number 2293<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Langrab - Quopist/Lanth<BR>
Don't cry for me Argentina (was Imp = US)<BR>
Sci Fi Campaigns<BR>
My man Norris<BR>
Marathon<BR>
Re: Peter's view of Traveller<BR>
Re: MT rules straitjacket (Free at last!)<BR>
TML Landgrab - Ficant/Vilis 1417<BR>
RE: Basic Economics (was Re: Astronomy in the 57th Century)<BR>
Re: Scale in Space<BR>
Re: Landgrab: Fornice<BR>
Re: Peter's View of Traveller <BR>
Re: Peter's view of Traveller<BR>
Re: Marathon<BR>
Re: Peter Newman's view of Traveller<BR>
Counter-revolutionary & revanchist Traveller<BR>
Re: Running A Sci-Fi Campaign<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 07:37:38 -0700<BR>
From: Peter Miller <thegolem@mindless.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Langrab - Quopist/Lanth<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
>I like it. Do you have any details about the governments of Alpha, Beta and<BR>
>Gamma ^k^k^k^k One, Two and Three complexes ?<BR>
><BR>
>Ian Whitchurch<BR>
<BR>
I hadn't had a chance to get any of my other thoughts onto paper as of <BR>
yet.  What I posted was material I wrote about two weeks ago, and since <BR>
then, with exams and work I haven't had any more time to get back to it <BR>
:-(  Fortunately, I'll be done the exam period soon and will be able to <BR>
give myself a little bit more Traveller time (that, afterall, is what's <BR>
important :-)<BR>
<BR>
Funny, as writing it, I was thinking of using Greek letters for the faction <BR>
names, but, I winced at the thought of the most powerful faction being <BR>
Alpha Complex......<BR>
<BR>
[Whats that commie?  The Computer says that Alpha Complex is the most <BR>
powerful and the only Complex.  The other Complexes are figments of a <BR>
mutant power gone out of control and a myth perpatrated by Secret <BR>
Socieities.  You wouldn't know anything about these, would you?]<BR>
<BR>
Err...no...I am...err..loyal to the Computer....<BR>
<BR>
[I detect a sign of doubt in your voice]<BR>
<BR>
(inset sound of lasers and charred flesh.  Followed by entry of identical <BR>
person)<BR>
<BR>
[Now, what was that about these other Complexes?]<BR>
<BR>
I am loyal to Alpha Complex and to the Computer!<BR>
<BR>
[Better citizen...]<BR>
<BR>
:-)<BR>
<BR>
__________________________Peter J. Miller<BR>
thegolem@mindless.com        ICQ #5294589<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 10:11:26 +1000<BR>
From: "Karen and Michael Hughes" <kmhughes@dynamite.com.au><BR>
Subject: Don't cry for me Argentina (was Imp = US)<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
>As an example of the attitude the Imperium probably has, look<BR>
>at the attitude of the US to the 1982 Falklands War.<BR>
>That was was between two American "client/ally" states (I dont<BR>
>think it's pushing it too hard to compare the Imperium to the<BR>
>Pax Americana), and the USA really didnt have a problem - just<BR>
>as long as they played nice, and nobody asked them to pick a<BR>
>side.<BR>
<BR>
Imperium to Pax Americana is a bit of a push, actually, but the<BR>
Falklands case is an interesting analogy.  The USA actually did<BR>
pick sides, by providing intelligence to the UK but not to<BR>
Argentina, primarily in the form of satellite images.<BR>
<BR>
Snipped from the pen of Glenn<BR>
<BR>
The US (and the SAS at one point !) also trained Argentinian special forces<BR>
as I understand..... which were used in the initial invasion - but this was,<BR>
of course,  before the war. Apparently they stuffed up el big time in the<BR>
initialassaults and afterwards tried to get up and at them atom ant style<BR>
(ie get into some combat) instead of doing covert recon which was their job.<BR>
<BR>
What a bunch of silly gooses.<BR>
<BR>
Ob Trav; I have none. I am sad. Wait, wait - I have one. Bunch of ex<BR>
imperial military special forces in a bar swapping stories about the stupid<BR>
things they have seen when encountering local so called special forces.<BR>
Enter Captain Vlienr Rofaugo Rofaugo, former ex local special forces<BR>
embarrassed by one of the impies in a war some ten years back. He's here for<BR>
revenge and armed with one of the Doug Berry Penguins I keep hearing about<BR>
....<BR>
<BR>
Michael<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 10:18:51 +1000<BR>
From: "Karen and Michael Hughes" <kmhughes@dynamite.com.au><BR>
Subject: Sci Fi Campaigns<BR>
<BR>
.<BR>
<BR>
The feel of an SF universe is much more "deterministic" or "less<BR>
simplifying" than in any fantasy setting. The players are no mythical<BR>
heroes, and the background doesn't even give their PC's the potential of<BR>
becoming one. Even the villains are not super-foes, but human beings (or<BR>
something like that...), perhaps with powerful gear, perhaps with a large<BR>
organizatio behind them, but after all, just vulnerable, mortal beings like<BR>
anyone else in the unverse. Everything has its scientific (and thus a bit<BR>
real-world-like) explanation, at least, for someone. Perhaps it's less<BR>
suitable for "fleeing reality" than fantasy.<BR>
<BR>
If you want to runa SF game, I recommend you find the right players for it.<BR>
(And, BTW, when you've found them, please tell me your trick. :) )<BR>
<BR>
Ingo Heinscher<BR>
<BR>
- ---<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Having moved to our Nation's capital in a vein attempt to go back to uni<BR>
some four years ago, I ended up working in the Department of Defence.<BR>
<BR>
In a mail room.<BR>
<BR>
Anyhoo low and behold there was a fellow rpger (sitting under my nose for<BR>
like 4 months until I saw him scoping out a book). I asked if I could join a<BR>
game sometime and sure enough 9 months later (when he was running games<BR>
again) - I got an invite.<BR>
<BR>
And he was a Traveller fan of the MT variety. Well 2 years after that I<BR>
finally got the nads to run a game of trav after other long lived campaigns<BR>
ended (one win - saved world yay - fantasy; draw on other - Cthulu - 90%<BR>
died, inc me, but we banished that bad boy for at least one afternoon).<BR>
<BR>
So after three sessions we are away (anyone want the game writeups!) and man<BR>
it is fun.<BR>
<BR>
What's the point? I'm not sure - maybe the whole it took 4 years thing. Nah,<BR>
I just wanted to say I'm in a regular game.<BR>
<BR>
Hurruh! Now to field test all that crap I've been writing these past 8<BR>
years.<BR>
<BR>
Michael<BR>
<BR>
PS Best trick to keep a game going more than one session - make the mission<BR>
goal a ten session deal. Heh heh heh.<BR>
PPS Of course this involves me saying 'you retired but have another<BR>
mission'. It's up there with 'you are in a tavern and you see some people<BR>
that look friendly'.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 10:23:35 +1000<BR>
From: "Karen and Michael Hughes" <kmhughes@dynamite.com.au><BR>
Subject: My man Norris<BR>
<BR>
> From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
><BR>
> >Stalin without the murderous rage and paranoia.  Uncle Josef<BR>
> >could be a great guy, fun loving and smiling, but able to focus<BR>
><BR>
> >*completely* upon a problem or task.<BR>
><BR>
> No meetings starting at midnight, either, I should think, nor<BR>
> would Norris have written in the margins of a biography of Ivan<BR>
> the Terrible, "teacher teacher teacher."<BR>
><BR>
> Complete focus is indicated by Arrival: Vengeance.  Are there<BR>
> any other canonical meetings with Norris?<BR>
><BR>
> - --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
Wah is not canonical cause it's DGP - But one of the last MT journals had a<BR>
celebrity interview with him. Who wrote that - they are a god. One of the<BR>
finest RPG magazine efforts around.<BR>
<BR>
He sounded cool. I will feature him (I hope) at some point.<BR>
<BR>
Michael<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 08:43:40 EDT<BR>
From: Damage169@cs.com<BR>
Subject: Marathon<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erickson writes:<BR>
<BR>
> No, he'd just run for a few hours. From the battle of Marathon.<BR>
>  "Marathons" are the *exact* length of his run. But *he* wasn't trained<BR>
>  for it, nor was he holding anything in reserve.<BR>
<BR>
He had also fought in the battle at Marathon, and made the run back to Athens <BR>
in full kit (bronze breastplate, greaves, shield and spear, total weight <BR>
about 40 lb.).<BR>
<BR>
Doug G. <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 08:11:22 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Peter's view of Traveller<BR>
<BR>
At 22:01 -0400 10/4/00, Bolie Williams IV <bolie@io.com> wrote:<BR>
>BTW, GURPS Traveller is the current edition of Traveller.<BR>
<BR>
GT is an official, divergent universe for Traveller. The current <BR>
(albeit) heading out of print edition of Traveller is T4. The fact <BR>
that the background material and production qualities of GT are <BR>
significantly better than T4 doesn't make it any less a divergent <BR>
universe.<BR>
<BR>
Doesn't stop me buying it though... ;-)<BR>
<BR>
>I see a pattern here... the rules are just guidelines,<BR>
>not hard and fast.  The referee is the ultimate authority<BR>
>and can contradict the written rules.<BR>
<BR>
I don't think that Peter has actually said that he supports the <BR>
argument he is presenting, just that it is what the MT rules say.<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 09:23:40 -0400<BR>
From: "Sword-Worlder" <swordworlder@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: MT rules straitjacket (Free at last!)<BR>
<BR>
Uh oh.  If later publication makes MT more canonical than CT, I guess the<BR>
new republication of CT reestablishes it as canon over MT, TNE, T4 and any<BR>
other pretender!  Woohooooooo!  The One True Traveller!<BR>
<BR>
- -Crusty<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
> I'd rate SJG quality above IG quality but GURPS Trav is<BR>
> _officially_ a variant. T4 was not a variant. Therefore<BR>
> it is more canonical. However (unlike SJG) much IG<BR>
> Traveller fails to correspond with more canonical material<BR>
> (Mt, CT, TNE) therefore all the bad IG stuff has already been<BR>
> bumped off the canon list.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 01:33:04 +1200<BR>
From: a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz<BR>
Subject: TML Landgrab - Ficant/Vilis 1417<BR>
<BR>
Well, I thought I'd join the madness. I stake a claim to Ficant/Vilis 1417.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 09:42:30 -0400<BR>
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net><BR>
Subject: RE: Basic Economics (was Re: Astronomy in the 57th Century)<BR>
<BR>
Pete Newman said:<BR>
<BR>
Please note that I have no interest in keeping this discussion going. I will<BR>
ignore any and all responses to this post. This discussion is completely<BR>
absurd and my last words on the subject.<BR>
<BR>
>It says that they are produced at shipyards throughout the<BR>
>Imperium. The Imperium is a big place with a lot of<BR>
>shipyards. Is it surprising to learn that only a short<BR>
>list (24 ships & craft) of ships are produced throughout<BR>
>the Imperium?<BR>
<BR>
A short list of ships are not the only ones in the Imperium. The text<BR>
doesn't say that they are. You're adding that yourself. What's surprising is<BR>
your complete inability to read the definition given by the MegaTraveller<BR>
rules for what a standard ship is.<BR>
<BR>
>> Actually, the term "rule" with respect to a game follows the general<BR>
meaning<BR>
>> of the word, which is a prescribed *guide* for an activity.<BR>
><BR>
>In most of the more commonly played games (chess,<BR>
>bridge, poker) there are different versions of the<BR>
>game with different rules and house rules but there still<BR>
>exist a set of written rules (Hoyle, Int Chess Federation<BR>
>etc) that are generally accepted as the 'Official" rules.<BR>
>If public domain games like chess can have standard rules<BR>
>why can't Traveller.<BR>
<BR>
These are still guides for playing a game. Please note what I said earlier:<BR>
<BR>
"You are not reading what was written, with respect to rule, but seem to be<BR>
applying another definition (which is synonymous with law), especially since<BR>
you frequently use the words "ought", and "must", terms of obligation, in<BR>
relation to your interpretation of the rules. However, that definition<BR>
assumes an authority to whom the GM and players are responsible to, or<BR>
beholden to. Such a party doesn't exist. Hence, the term "rule", as it is<BR>
understood with respect to games, must be assumed."<BR>
<BR>
In playing a chess tournament, you are responsible to a higher authority.<BR>
Accepted rules are codified. Playing by different rules is not accepted<BR>
within that setting because you may get thrown out, lose by default, or lose<BR>
your ranking.<BR>
<BR>
>If you read a rule saying: "The standard chess pieces are<BR>
>the king, the queen, the bishop, etc." would you assume<BR>
>that other standard pieces not mentioned in the rules<BR>
>also existed?<BR>
<BR>
Ah, I see your problem. You simply do not understand the definition of<BR>
standard, as the word is used by MegaTraveller with respect to ships, as<BR>
defined in the sentence in which it is introduced. You're confusing it with<BR>
another definition of standard. Switch around definition and defined term,<BR>
like this:<BR>
<BR>
"The designs listed here are mass-produced in shipyards throughout the<BR>
Imperium, which provides economies of scale and saves the fees of a ship<BR>
architect: that is, standard."<BR>
<BR>
Please note that this statement, under any reasonable interpretation, makes<BR>
no indication that the ships are the *only* ships which are mass produced<BR>
throughout the Imperium.<BR>
<BR>
Now, let's use this definition in your chess example:<BR>
<BR>
"The following list of pieces are mass-produced in shipyards throughout the<BR>
Imperium, which provides economies of scale and save the fees of a ship<BR>
architect." Hmmm... Doesn't work, and that clearly wasn't your intent. That<BR>
definition simply doesn't work. Let's supply another definition of standard,<BR>
"The pieces that conform to established custom are..."<BR>
<BR>
So, in your example of standard chess pieces, I would expect that any chess<BR>
pieces which do not appear on the list probably don't conform to established<BR>
custom. In other words, you're mixing apples and oranges. You are<BR>
misunderstanding the word standard as it is used in the MegaTraveller rules.<BR>
In other words, you're simply wrong. Your next move may be to try to claim<BR>
that these ships conform to established custom. Don't bother. It won't help<BR>
here, because that's not indicated by the definition of custom given by the<BR>
authors.<BR>
<BR>
>This assumes facts not in evidence. Even if it is a true<BR>
>assumption of the designers assumptions said assumption<BR>
>on their part was erroneous.<BR>
<BR>
Apparently it was. One Peter Newman is apparently incapable of understanding<BR>
how the term "rule" is applied to a game. I suspect that it wasn't an error<BR>
on their part, but it's an error on yours. Indeed, it would seem that most<BR>
reasonable people on this list understand this usage.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 09:27:37 -0400<BR>
From: "Smith, Walter" <SmithW@hartwick.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Scale in Space<BR>
<BR>
Dale Gyles wrote:<BR>
>My players do give me funny looks when I tell them the timescale.  But, <BR>
>now I can explain it logically to them, thanks to you guys.  I <BR>
>appreciate this. <BR>
> I have been avoiding space combat in my game, because of this.  This is <BR>
>getting harder and harder to do, since this is an anti-pirate campaign. <BR>
<BR>
One of the best bits of advice I've seen on explaining the time scale<BR>
of Traveller space combat: don't think _Star Wars_, think<BR>
_Hunt for Red October_...the book, more than the movie.  It's more<BR>
like submarine combat than WW2 fighter planes, though of course it's<BR>
really neither.<BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 16:09:41 +0200 (METDST)<BR>
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk><BR>
Subject: Re: Landgrab: Fornice<BR>
<BR>
Glenn Grant writes:<BR>
<BR>
>Gimme Fornice/Mora (SM 3025)<BR>
<BR>
FYI I'm currently working on a writeup of Fornice that I plan to submit to<BR>
JTAS Online.<BR>
<BR>
>MT data: A354A87-C  Hi  202 Im M0v<BR>
> <BR>
>I've got the MT data above, and BTC.  Does anybody know of any other stuff<BR>
>I should read?<BR>
 <BR>
There is some information about Fornice in _Tarsus_ (Tarsus was settled from<BR>
Fornice).<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
      Hans Rancke<BR>
University of Copenhagen<BR>
     rancke@diku.dk<BR>
- ------------<BR>
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent<BR>
         events based on the individual situation."<BR>
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 09:39:49 -0500<BR>
From: Bill Dunn <bdunn@epicsystems.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Peter's View of Traveller <BR>
<BR>
	Original Message:---<BR>
	From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
	Subject: Re: Peter's View of Traveller<BR>
<BR>
	I have changed my mind about MT rules being a straitjacket<BR>
	(although I still believe that only the ships in the Imperial<BR>
	Encyclopedia  are standard). Those of you who said that<BR>
	the MT rules were intended to be guidelines were apparently<BR>
	correct.<BR>
<BR>
And back from the precipice we step! Whew.<BR>
I have to say that when I saw the list of canonical sources contructed in<BR>
hierarchical order, I said, "This borders on obsessive-compulsive. The<BR>
player must be a loon." I have since revised that assessment though I still<BR>
think placing that much emphasis on whether something is 'official' or there<BR>
is an explicit allowance for a GM to bend the rules or the distinction<BR>
between Referee and GM is awfully pedantic (or too much like the Knights of<BR>
the Dinner Table, a must-read comic book). Especially the referee vs GM<BR>
issue. Makes you wonder how Call of Cthulhu fits in with its 'Keeper'. Does<BR>
he REALLY keep Cthulhu? Where does  he keep him? In a pen out in the yard?<BR>
Personally, I can't remember an RPG where the GM (referee, facilitator, DM,<BR>
whatever) wouldn't be master of the system, able to modify rulings as<BR>
necessary or warranted for the game situation. That's one of the points of<BR>
role-playing games. Sure, I remember Gygax trying to declare that anyone<BR>
playing with home rules or modifications wasn't playing 'real' AD&D but he<BR>
full of crap. We figured he was cranky because he was being forced out of<BR>
the company (turns out he just tends to be that way... who knew?). He was<BR>
also contradicting himself from his earlier halcyon days in the hobby. <BR>
The crux of the matter in RPGs is that given the unbounded nature of<BR>
imagination, no set of rules can hope to cover all situations. The BEST they<BR>
can hope to do is provide enough guidelines to make a game out of it. Major<BR>
rules changes by a referee should be presented to players, sure. That way<BR>
they have a source to go to when making sure the GM is being reasonably<BR>
consistent. But limiting equipment or ships or even 'standard' designs<BR>
merely because the rules couldn't be exhaustive is excessive. Wargames, by<BR>
comparison, focusing on limited situations or time periods don't have that<BR>
limitation. They CAN work on being exhaustive. But even Advanced Squad<BR>
Leader needs modules, lots of Q&A, and thousands of chits to even come<BR>
close. Notice too that wargames can artificially limit their scopes and<BR>
increase abstraction to accomplish exhaustiveness (like with Diplomacy).<BR>
RPGs, on the other hand, depending on how the players want to play, can draw<BR>
down into finer detail as the former Imperial Marine, now working security<BR>
for a liner, haggles with the man selling eggplant on the promenade of the<BR>
Lanth highport because "it doesn't look fresh, is it fresh?" and he wants to<BR>
save a few credits on his ratatouille recipe.<BR>
<BR>
Bill Dunn<BR>
bdunn@epicsystems.com<BR>
<BR>
"People who drink light 'beer' don't like the taste of beer; they just like<BR>
to pee a lot."   --Capital Brewery, Middleton, WI<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 07:42:59<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Peter's view of Traveller<BR>
<BR>
At 11:14 PM 4/10/2000 -0800, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Aliens may be visiting Earth.<BR>
><BR>
>Aliens are visiting Earth.<BR>
<BR>
no, it's more like:  Dolphins, Tuna and Hammerhead sharks are sea creatures.<BR>
<BR>
The word "are" doesn't preclude the exitense of other sea creatures.<BR>
<BR>
The bloody book was only so long, and they only had so many pages avalible<BR>
for designs.  So these are the Volks-starships, stamped out on assembly lines.<BR>
<BR>
Have you seen 101 Starships for GT?  *Lots* of "standard" designs in there...<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 10:55:00 EDT<BR>
From: JFZeigler@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Marathon<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 4/11/00 8:45:37 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Damage169@cs.com <BR>
writes:<BR>
<BR>
> > No, he'd just run for a few hours. From the battle of Marathon.<BR>
>  >  "Marathons" are the *exact* length of his run. But *he* wasn't trained<BR>
>  >  for it, nor was he holding anything in reserve.<BR>
>  <BR>
>  He had also fought in the battle at Marathon, and made the run back to <BR>
> Athens <BR>
>  in full kit (bronze breastplate, greaves, shield and spear, total weight <BR>
>  about 40 lb.).<BR>
<BR>
Not to mention that (according to Herodotus) he was the same runner<BR>
who had made the run to Sparta and back a few days before to ask for<BR>
Spartan aid against the Persians.  Herodotus tells tall ones, to be sure.<BR>
<BR>
- ----------<BR>
Jon F. Zeigler: Mathematician, computer geek, amateur historian, freelance<BR>
writer, occasional scribbler of bad poetry<BR>
"For any statement, no matter how innocuous, there exists a nonempty<BR>
set of people who will take offense at it."<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 11:18:16 -0400<BR>
From: "VonRammen" <von_rammen@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Peter Newman's view of Traveller<BR>
<BR>
It's interesting to note that this kind of debate over "Canon" (in this case<BR>
with a big C) goes all the way back to the Scholastics of the Middle Ages,<BR>
who would fit their observations to accord with the work of a recognized<BR>
authority. Thus, physicians would refer to Galen even when observation<BR>
clearly showed him to be wrong, people insisted that heavier bodies fall<BR>
faster than lighter ones because Aristotle said so, etc. Peter of Abelard,<BR>
in his classic "Sic et Non" [Yes and No], however, pointed out that the<BR>
ultimate Canon, the Bible, had several glaring errors. (I've only read<BR>
excerpts, but IIRC some of the bigger ones were the New Testament quoting<BR>
Old Testament scripture incorrectly, even getting the wrong prophet on a few<BR>
occasions. Nobody seems to have bothered to check before Ableard got around<BR>
to it.) His conclusion was that there must have been scribal error, or a<BR>
corrupt text, since obviously the inspired word was correct--somebody else<BR>
just copied it wrong.<BR>
<BR>
Given that much of the later Traveller editions--including<BR>
MegaTraveller--was obviously cut-and-pasted (perhaps literally from the<BR>
film) from the LBBs, and that the total errata from all of GDW's games would<BR>
add up to a book the size of the Classic Books Reprints, I would say that<BR>
using textual analysis to justify *any* element of the OTU that seems to<BR>
contradict common sense is a dicey proposition.<BR>
<BR>
Fred Ramen<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 07:56:38 -0700<BR>
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)<BR>
Subject: Counter-revolutionary & revanchist Traveller<BR>
<BR>
>From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
>Subject: Re: Peter's view of Traveller<BR>
...<BR>
>The only person I know on the TML (besides myself) who <BR>
>belongs on soc.religion.traveller is that counter-revolutionary<BR>
>revanchist CT scum Steven Hudson of the: "There is no game<BR>
>but Traveller and High Guard is its product." screed.<BR>
<BR>
  Counter-revolutionary? The later editions aren't worth the effort of<BR>
resisting, and G:T, as we all know, isn't Traveller :)<BR>
<BR>
  Revanchist? I can order Classic reprints in book or (eventually) CD<BR>
format, while you people whine and moan about Sanger and the supposedly <BR>
near-prefect gaming products he has the rights to. _The CT people have<BR>
already won_! We don't need no steenking revenge!! Nyah-nyah-nya/<ahem><BR>
<BR>
  Anyways...<BR>
<BR>
>In GURPS Trav, Ct, & T4 (and TNE too IIRC) this is correct.<BR>
>However _MT_ lacks such a statement. I am suggesting that<BR>
>such a lack is deliberate others are suggesting that it is<BR>
>accidental.<BR>
<BR>
Accidental? How about "In MT it was missed and they forgot to errata it"? :><BR>
<BR>
        Steven Hudson <BR>
<BR>
The CT Creed: "There is no Game but Traveller, and High Guard is its Product"<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 11:05:33 -0600 (CST)<BR>
From: "Jason Kemp" <Jason.Kemp@tdh.state.tx.us><BR>
Subject: Re: Running A Sci-Fi Campaign<BR>
<BR>
Hello, Everyone,<BR>
<BR>
Wow! I've gotten some great responses so far to my request. In <BR>
addition, I've been asked a lot of questions about my gaming group, <BR>
the type of games I've been trying to run, and similar related <BR>
issues, so I'll try to go through and try to answer everyone's <BR>
questions as best I can.<BR>
<BR>
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net><BR>
<BR>
> Are your players sci-fi fans? If not, they may just be disinterested in the<BR>
> genre. If they are sci-fi fans, they may be fans of a specific genre (like<BR>
> cyberpunk), or certain television shows or movies (Star Trek, Star Wars,<BR>
> Babylon 5). If that's the case, it might be handy to use ideas and themes<BR>
> that they might be familiar with.<BR>
<BR>
They are fans of sci-fi in movies and literature. However, they don't <BR>
have a good grasp on a sci-fi gaming experience. I have discussed it <BR>
with them to some degree, and most of this may stem from the fact <BR>
that they feel overwhelmed by the vast amount of options they don't <BR>
even know they have. Even in a simple scenario, they perceive that <BR>
there might be a ton of options they don't know about, and apparently <BR>
get frustrated with this perception.<BR>
<BR>
The last time I tried to run Sci-Fi was a Traveller game last year<BR>
based on First Contact between the Terrans and the Vilani. I realized <BR>
that I failed in not providing enough information to allow them to <BR>
develop a grasp of the game and their potentials for action.<BR>
<BR>
Part of the failing, too, is most likely in the form of the players <BR>
that I normally game with. They do prefer fantasy to anything else, <BR>
and are not very forgiving about trying new stuff. (Although that <BR>
attitude has choked the group pretty much, and it's stagnating pretty <BR>
bad, they still cling to it. Slowly, one by one, they seem to be <BR>
approaching enlightenment, and may be willing to try something <BR>
different. I just want to be better prepared next time, so that I <BR>
stand a chance of running something beyond one adventure.)<BR>
<BR>
> Is the system that you use for fantasy gaming "class based"? Are there<BR>
> obvious roles that the player characters can fit into to? I know that the<BR>
> World of Darkness games have a class-based philosophy, to some extent. Your<BR>
> players may be "lost at sea" (or "lost in space") without a direction or a<BR>
> clear idea of what they're supposed to do. This is pretty common in<BR>
> futuristic and modern RPGs.<BR>
<BR>
Of the last few years, we've been gaming mostly in HERO, though some <BR>
of us will play Storyteller, and even the occasional AD&D. Yep, the <BR>
group deals a lot with an unclear perception of direction or purpose. <BR>
This is an area I can work on, so that the ball rolls back into their <BR>
court.<BR>
<BR>
> If this is the case, try providing clear goals that make sense to your<BR>
> players. You're setting them loose in the big, bad, impersonal universe.<BR>
> They may not be familiar with how the universe is run, or what "roles" there<BR>
> may be to play. Just like in real life, it's helpful if the players can<BR>
> orient themselves in future society. You might sit down with them before<BR>
> they generate characters and talk to them about what sort of characters they<BR>
> want to play.<BR>
<BR>
Thanks, Chris. That's good advice. We're not quite used to that <BR>
approach.<BR>
<BR>
> What style of roleplaying do your characters enjoy? Are they "smash and<BR>
> grab" adventurers who like to beat down the bad guys and make off with loot?<BR>
> If so, you might consider providing an outlet for their tendencies<BR>
> (mercenary tickets, small unit commando raids, whatever). If they like<BR>
> diplomacy and intrigue, either within our outside the group, you can work<BR>
> this into a sci-fi campaign. In every Traveller campaign I've run, I've<BR>
> started by asking the players what kind of adventures they want to perform,<BR>
> or what kind of flavor they're looking for. When I ran TNE, for example, I<BR>
> gave them the choice between the Regency and Reformation Coalition. When I<BR>
> ran T4 recently, I asked them upfront what kind of campaign I wanted.<BR>
> Communicating with your players can be very important.<BR>
<BR>
I spoke with them, and they are just overwhelmed with the options and <BR>
lack of a good grasp of possibilities to make such decisions. I've <BR>
been attempting to analyze their gaming styles and goals somewhat, to <BR>
tailor a scenario to better fit their drives, and make a few <BR>
decisions at first for them, presenting their options in-game during <BR>
the first session. "So you want to accept the Scout's offer to <BR>
explore strange new worlds, or join the chick in the fight against <BR>
the Zhodani oppressors?" Or whatever.<BR>
<BR>
One of the players loves political intrigue, but the rest don't <BR>
really get off on it. Another really enjoys psionics/magic, and <BR>
having powers as an advantage over others. Yet another wants good <BR>
roleplay ops. All of them enjoy the occasional fight scene, and <BR>
rolling the dice.<BR>
<BR>
> Finally, they may be used to games in which there is some sort of balance<BR>
> inherent in the system. Perhaps you could pregenerate some balanced<BR>
> characters who are intended to work together. Modern and futuristic games<BR>
> can be spoiled by a lack of "screen time" given to player characters  (which<BR>
> frequently happens if the skills of the characters overlap too much).<BR>
<BR>
Good point. I will bear that in mind.<BR>
<BR>
> If you can give me more information about you and your group, I can probably<BR>
> help you find a remedy, or point you toward useful articles. Good luck. :)<BR>
<BR>
Any aid you can give me that teaches me to be a better GM for Sci-Fi <BR>
and for Traveller specifically would be greatly appreciated.<BR>
<BR>
From: Jens Rydholm <jenry023@student.liu.se><BR>
<BR>
> I recognize the problem (being mostly a fantasy and WoD GM myself),<BR>
> but I think I know some of the reasons for it. Other reasons than<BR>
> those below have been given in earlier posts.<BR>
> <BR>
> The players might not have a clear idea of the universe works. If<BR>
> you suspect this to be the case, prepare handouts (about Aliens,<BR>
> Technology, social groups, history). These should not be extremely<BR>
> long, just long enough to explain the core concepts.<BR>
<BR>
This is exactly one of the problems my more vocal player keeps <BR>
spouting as his defense against trying the game again. What are some <BR>
good guidelines about preparing handouts that will make them more <BR>
interesting to the players?<BR>
<BR>
> You may have tried to run a too open-ended game. Try to limit the<BR>
> story a bit (around a specific star, a specific corporation, etc),<BR>
> or give the characters personal intrigues (long lost brother, outlaw<BR>
> with a false identity, etc).<BR>
> <BR>
> The campaign may be too limited. Try making it a bit more open<BR>
> ended. If you have a core story you want to tell, insert small<BR>
> stories that do not have anything to do with the main story every<BR>
> now and then.<BR>
<BR>
I've run into both problems in previous efforts.<BR>
<BR>
> The players might be uncomfortable and/or unfamiliar with the<BR>
> system. Either change some parts of the rules, or run a few "test<BR>
> runs" (that really don't happen) of critical parts (a combat, some<BR>
> starship action, etc).<BR>
<BR>
That's one of the reasons I've been working sporadically on my <BR>
Traveller Hero rules. The group is very comfortable with HERO <BR>
System, and that would relieve a lot of tensions in the area of rules <BR>
system unfamiliarity.<BR>
<BR>
> The type of stories that you tell in SF environments might differ<BR>
> from the ones you tell in fantasy and/or WoD. If this is the<BR>
> problem, try to tell similiar stories in SF. It is nowhere near as<BR>
> hard as it seems. Just for fun, compare Star Wars with a typical<BR>
> fantasy story. Farmer boy faces problems at home, meets old wizard,<BR>
> heads off to a life of adventure, joins heroic army...<BR>
<BR>
Good point, Jens. I've thought of doing such to give the players <BR>
something to identify with. Hopefully, this thought process will <BR>
eventually open them up to a transition into a Sci-Fi game.<BR>
<BR>
> In general, talk to your players about the problem. Try to find out<BR>
> what it is with the system and/or stories that they do not like.<BR>
> Work out those problems together with your players, then try again.<BR>
<BR>
I am in the processof working on the problem areas, and finding a <BR>
time when someone isn't trying to run a game. The sad part is, as the <BR>
group is stagnating, several of the players, being GMs themselves, <BR>
are trying to start and run new games to capture some of the flavor <BR>
our group once had. Sadly, it isn't working, and it's just going <BR>
downhill. There's a big part of me that thinks it's time for new <BR>
players and a new group, but my closest friends are among my current <BR>
group. Tough predicament.<BR>
<BR>
> If you care to, you can have a look at the notes on my homepage (URL<BR>
> below, click on Traveller). They are far from finished, but they<BR>
> contain some background information, among other things. I had the<BR>
> "understanding the universe" problem...<BR>
<BR>
Thanks! I will!<BR>
<BR>
From: "Terry Carlino" <carlino@home.com><BR>
<BR>
> This is so open a question that giving a definitive answer would be<BR>
> almost impossible. What kind of gaming style do you and your players<BR>
> use? Are your fantasy games combat oriented? Exploration oriented?<BR>
> Dungeon Crawls? Encounter Strings? Nothing wrong with any of those<BR>
> styles, if that's what your players enjoy. Do they prefer<BR>
> rules-light gaming or is GURPS more their style.<BR>
<BR>
Gaming style: some focus on character concept integrity with a trend <BR>
toward high action and heavy die-rolling.<BR>
<BR>
Fantasy games tend to be combat-oriented encounter strings. Very few <BR>
Dungeon Crawls and little exploration, although we've kicked the idea <BR>
around a bit.<BR>
<BR>
They prefer HERO, so leaning towards GURPS style over CT. *sigh*<BR>
<BR>
> Ask yourself what's different about your SF games. Are they too<BR>
> techie oriented? By that I mean are they just a never-ending list of<BR>
> gee-wiz gadgets? Perhaps background is burying your players. If they<BR>
> are very familiar with your fantasy background perhaps they feel<BR>
> learning a completely new background is too daunting a task.<BR>
<BR>
I have to agree that this is partly to blame, I'm sure. Going back<BR>
to the basics, I think I'll have to start smaller and give a bit of<BR>
background information, without burying the players.<BR>
<BR>
From: Qstor@aol.com<BR>
<BR>
> There are some resources on rpg.net that are good for all GM's<BR>
> also... the site Uncle Figgys Guide to DMing is good as well...<BR>
<BR>
Anything specific to Sci-Fi games, Qstor?<BR>
<BR>
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net><BR>
<BR>
> Well, what TYPE of sci-fi are you running? Traveller can be run as a<BR>
> light-cyber cyberpunk, a massive space-operatic swath, grunts on the<BR>
> ground, grunts prowling the spacelanes, In Service to the Crown type<BR>
> games, Private Citizens simply trying to break even, impovrished<BR>
> merchants, merchant princes, even the Board of Directors of a<BR>
> Megacorp. Each of these has a distinctly different appeal. Take the<BR>
> preferences of my players:<BR>
>  Peter, the Pedant: Prefers mechantile campaign with intrigue added.<BR>
>   Prefers to avoid military-type adventures.<BR>
>  Scot: Anything where he can play the grunt with a heart of gols.<BR>
>  Rich #1 (Currently unavailable): Grand sweeping but still hard SF<BR>
>   space-opera. The heroes must do the larger than life without<BR>
>   having the skills to be larger than life.<BR>
>  Rich #2: Anything which allows him to play a character with major<BR>
>   personality disorders<BR>
>  Rich #3: Anything which doesn't feel like Asimov hand any hand in<BR>
>  it. Clint: Big BG fan - The universe is a harsh place. Bill:<BR>
>  anything where he can directly transplant his ideas and memories<BR>
>   of the USMC during the 'Nam.<BR>
> <BR>
> (These are some of the group. not all. For obvious reasons.<BR>
<BR>
Yep, but look at all those options. Give them to a group of players <BR>
that doesn't want to play anything but fantasy, and they'll be <BR>
overwhelmed because there are too many choices and all of them rooted <BR>
in something they don't understand.<BR>
<BR>
> Ask your players what type of Sci-Fi campaign they want. Meet them<BR>
> about 2/3rd of the way (for  you). and slowly work your way back.<BR>
> I've found that, in general, Sci-Fan (like Star Wars, or Trek)<BR>
> appeals to my groups literary interests, but NOT their playing<BR>
> interests. Asimovian seems to work better for play. Yeah, Peter<BR>
> gripes about the characters being singled out by the nobility, but,<BR>
> hey, he keeps playing. (I've now not run Traveller in about 2 years.<BR>
> A 1.5 year epic campaign sorta ran me out of ideas, and group<BR>
> changes destroyed the ballance that I had 4 years ago, and the short<BR>
> stints of 3 months on later campaigns failed due to player styles.)<BR>
<BR>
Am trying. I'm also playing a PBEM and a local GT game, trying to get <BR>
an idea of how to run and present materials, and basically handle <BR>
storylines, etc.<BR>
<BR>
[As an aside: you know, Loren is listed as a gamer in the <BR>
neighborhood here in Austin. Loren, are you running a game at this <BR>
time that could handle an observer, if not another player? Just <BR>
kidding. You probably have a waiting line to get in to your games, <BR>
assuming you even have time to run, with all the SJG work you've <BR>
been doing.]<BR>
<BR>
> No GM is an island to which players are marooned. With effort, they<BR>
> CAN find someone else. Or even choose not to play. In my case, I've<BR>
> had more problems with Sci-Fi due to players not being able to grasp<BR>
> the fundamental "unreality" elements most sci-fi settings include.<BR>
> I've run several different types of Sci-Fi. Peter is after me to run<BR>
> more Sci-Fi. (My latest kick has been non-tolkienian fantasy. First<BR>
> with Dragonlance under DL5A rules, and now with Better Games<BR>
> _Arabian Sea Tales_. And, beforre that, I'd run Palladium, and<BR>
> before that, I ran LUG-Trek.)<BR>
> <BR>
> Fantasy seems to evoke fewer arguments about what is and is not<BR>
> believeable. Sci-Fi, as a field, is splintered into so many<BR>
> subcultures and styles that are att odds. Fantasy basically breaks<BR>
> down to: Tolkienian, Vancian, Howardesque (Conan, et al), and<BR>
> Moorcockian; most games are shaded with all of the above to some<BR>
> degree. The breadth of appeal for sci-fi is much narrower audiences<BR>
> for most authors.<BR>
<BR>
I agree with you wholeheartedly, William. Thanks. It's hard to find <BR>
a flavor of SF that your players can agree on. But I love the <BR>
Traveller background, the milieux. I've invested a significant amount <BR>
of money in my collection of Traveller books over the years, <BR>
primarily because of the background and the potential hidden within <BR>
the rules for many evenings of entertainment.<BR>
<BR>
But they'd rather play fantasy. *sigh*<BR>
<BR>
However, when I get my next chance, I want to be ready for them. <BR>
That's why I am asking this question. Obviously, I have a problem <BR>
with the likes and dislikes of my gaming group. But I also want to <BR>
make sure I've got a good grasp on what it means to GM Traveller, <BR>
what I'll have to take into consideration, how I should best approach <BR>
bringing them into the fold. You know, how to run a great game that <BR>
keeps them wanting to come back for more. I can do it with Fantasy; <BR>
how do I do it with Sci-Fi?<BR>
<BR>
Thanks, Everyone, For Your Input,<BR>
Jason<BR>
<BR>
=============================<BR>
Jason Kemp, ADS Programmer IV<BR>
(512)458-7111 ext. 1+3375<BR>
Internet Address:  jason.kemp@tdh.state.tx.us<BR>
<BR>
Most computer virus and email alerts are hoaxes.  For more info, check out:<BR>
http://urbanlegends.miningco.com/culture/beliefs/urbanlegends/library/blhoax.htm<BR>
==============================<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2293<BR>
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Traveller-digest      Tuesday, April 11 2000      Volume 1999 : Number 2294<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Traveller on USENET<BR>
RE: Running A Sci-Fi Campaign<BR>
Re: An alternate TL definition (heresy warning)<BR>
RE: Peter Newman's Traveller Universe - evidence from the books<BR>
Re: Running A Sci-Fi Campaign<BR>
Jacketed Penguins: Technology Waddles On...<BR>
Re: Peter's View of Traveller <BR>
Schims (was Re: Basic Economics...)<BR>
Re: Schims (was Re: Basic Economics...)<BR>
Loeskalth and Far Frontiers Sector Data?<BR>
Re: Vaya Con Dios class ship<BR>
Re: Schims (was Re: Basic Economics...)<BR>
Wars within the Imperium or Hegemony (long)<BR>
Re: Maps of the Imperium site gone?<BR>
Re: Loeskalth and Far Frontiers Sector Data?<BR>
Re: Far Frontiers Sector Data?<BR>
Re: Peter's view of Traveller<BR>
Re: the war in Pennsylvania<BR>
Re: Running A Sci-Fi Campaign<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 17:56:36 +0200<BR>
From: Ingo Heinscher <Hiroshi.Estigarribia@gmx.de><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller on USENET<BR>
<BR>
At 23:13 10.04.00 -0500, David Reed wrote:<BR>
<BR>
	msn.forums.games.rpg.traveller<BR>
[snip]<BR>
<BR>
>There is likely a Traveller somewhere in Mordor, where the coders' lie...<BR>
><BR>
>Who else would've gotten MSN to create this lonely group?<BR>
><BR>
>[Quick, somebody call Reno!  I smell a Microsoft conspiracy to take over the<BR>
>roleplaying industry!]<BR>
<BR>
I couldn't find the ng specified, instead I merely found<BR>
"microsoft.public.games.roleplaying" or something like that. But no<BR>
Traveller group.<BR>
<BR>
Or is this just my newsserver?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
"This was not meant to be an aggresssion against the Siru Zirka. But we had<BR>
to organize our affairs a bit more efficiently. To be honest, we have had<BR>
to do this for almost 300 years by now."<BR>
unknown Terran politician, -2398 Imp<BR>
;-) ingo heinscher <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 12:12:11 -0400<BR>
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca><BR>
Subject: RE: Running A Sci-Fi Campaign<BR>
<BR>
Jason Kemp writes:<BR>
>Greetings, All,<BR>
>I'm a GM desperately looking for advice to improve his ability to run <BR>
>Sci-Fi campaigns. For some reason, I think I'm missing some critical <BR>
>point, because most of my SF games tend to end rather quickly, unlike <BR>
>my fantasy or World of Darkness games.<BR>
<BR>
	My own experience has been that many players find it hard to<BR>
	motivate their characters in Traveller.  In most fantasy games<BR>
	that I have run there is Good and Evil, a Quest, or at<BR>
	least Us and Them.  The players find it easy to find a<BR>
	direction for their characters: fight Evil, complete the Quest,<BR>
	destroy Them.  I like to allow my PCs as much freedom as <BR>
	possible to go where they will, but I have found that in<BR>
	Traveller I often need to exersize more direct control of<BR>
	what they are doing in order to involve them in specific<BR>
	adventures.  Usually this has involved getting a patron to<BR>
	send them hither and thither, but I have also considered having<BR>
	them work for the Scouts, a Megacorp, or some such.  I have<BR>
	never run a Merc campaign, but it would probably be relatively<BR>
	easy to motivate players in that millieu.<BR>
<BR>
>I can't seem to get my players <BR>
>involved in them, and I am looking for suggestions to help me improve <BR>
>my ability to run a Traveller game that will last more than the first <BR>
>night or the first adventure. Is it really that big a difference in <BR>
>gamemastering?<BR>
<BR>
	Some good advice has already been offered.  I certainly recommend<BR>
	providing hand-outs so that the players have a good idea of how<BR>
	the universe works (as short as possible).  All the usual GMing<BR>
	skills should be involved: have fun with the technology but don't<BR>
	forget the role-playing interactions.  If the players don't seem<BR>
	to know what to do, start them right away in the employ of a patron<BR>
	or other motivator.  One difference in GMing is that Traveller<BR>
	typically involves lots and lots of worlds, making it difficult to<BR>
	have detail in each.  I concentrate on the "feel" of each world,<BR>
	and only add detail as required.  Another thing that happens in<BR>
	Traveller is that characters can spend weeks doing little or<BR>
	nothing.  Streamlining these periods (but allowing the characters<BR>
	to train/heal/do maintenance/etc.) is helpful.<BR>
<BR>
>Any assistance, including articles on Sci-Fi gamemastering available <BR>
>online or your own personal experiences, would be greatly <BR>
>appreciated. Thank you in advance for whatever you have to offer.<BR>
<BR>
	Of course, some players just prefer some genres, and some systems,<BR>
	to others.  My group tends to cycle through Traveller, Runequest,<BR>
	Star Trek TRPG, and Villains and Vigilantes.  We all have our<BR>
	preferences, I run out of ideas, inspiration fades...  It works<BR>
	out for us.  Usually we stick with one game for 6 months to a year.<BR>
	Good luck, and keep us posted!<BR>
<BR>
Peez<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 09:22:09 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
Subject: Re: An alternate TL definition (heresy warning)<BR>
<BR>
Peter Newman writes:<BR>
<BR>
> > TTL 0   1   2   3   4   5   6   7   8   9   A   B   C   D   E   F   G<BR>
> > GTL 1   4   5   5   5   6   6   7   8   9   9   9   10  10  11  12  12<BR>
> > Cr  30  60  125 180 250 350 500 1k  2k  25h 3k  4k  5k  7k  10k 14k 20k<BR>
> <BR>
> Actually in GURPS Traveller canon TTL 16 = GTL 13. I think<BR>
> this is an error (although perhaps needed to explain the<BR>
Actually, I'd prefer to call TTL-14 GTL-10, TTL 15-17 GTL-11, but that issue<BR>
is long over.<BR>
<BR>
> I agree with your basic premise but note that these figures do<BR>
> not match previous canonical GURPS figures. I suggest<BR>
<more snip><BR>
Actually, there's previous canon for GURPS in Far Trader.  I don't perfectly<BR>
match those figures (I reduce wealth quite a bit from those numbers, in fact)<BR>
but that's deliberate.  In any case, base TTL-15 wealth is Cr 15,000 in there.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 10:26:31 -0600<BR>
From: Jason Postma <JasonP@i-link.net><BR>
Subject: RE: Peter Newman's Traveller Universe - evidence from the books<BR>
<BR>
First, some more quotes showing the intent of the authors of MT.  All of<BR>
these quotes are from DGP rather than GDW, but as you can see by the first<BR>
quote, they are considered official (I realize Peter has already changed his<BR>
position on the "straitjacket" nature of the MT rules, but I don't want my<BR>
research last night to go to waste):<BR>
<BR>
Traveller's Digest #14 - Traveller Q&A:<BR>
"We want to stress to our readers that the answers appearing in Traveller<BR>
Q&A are official unless explicitly stated to be a variant"<BR>
- -pg 40<BR>
 <BR>
"...While we give 'canned tasks' throughout the rules in MegaTraveller, they<BR>
are meant to be suggestions rather than chisled in stone.  <BR>
    When we referee a playtest here at Digest Group Publications, we 'wing<BR>
it' a lot, and do not consult the rules as much as you might expect.  The<BR>
task system lends itself very well to this kind of play.  We feel it is more<BR>
important to keep up the excitement level and to keep the game moving than<BR>
it is to be a constant slave to the rules.  In fact, it was the lack of<BR>
consistant rules for 'on the fly' adventuring that led us to develop the<BR>
task system in the first place.<BR>
    Having stated our philosophy on the rules and the taks system..."<BR>
- -pg. 40<BR>
 <BR>
Traveller's Digest issue 15 Q&A:<BR>
"All answers in this column are reviewed by DGW and thus are official<BR>
answers to your questions."<BR>
- -pg. 30<BR>
 <BR>
Traveller's Digest issue 18 Q&A:<BR>
"-my philosophy has always been if the rules don't seem to cover the<BR>
situation, there's nothing wrong with guessing.  I've always felt that RPG<BR>
rules are meant to help you - not make your life miserable.  If the rules<BR>
are a problem, then just do what you think makes the most sense, and go from<BR>
there."<BR>
- -pg. 42.<BR>
 <BR>
Traveller's Digest issue 21 Q&A:<BR>
"Recently, we have been thinking it might have been better to leave out<BR>
tasks in published adventures, and thereby force you to use the task system<BR>
more the way it is intended to be used: make up tasks as you go.  The<BR>
concept of slavish, religious devotion to the rules, or of making long lists<BR>
of predefined tasks as a reference is somewhat counterproductive, I think.<BR>
The tasks presented in the rule books are meant as examples.  Try running a<BR>
session or two without the rule books sometime -- just make up the tasks as<BR>
you go along -- yes, even the combat tasks.  As long as the players agree<BR>
that the task you give them is reasonable, that's all that really matters."<BR>
- -pg. 29<BR>
 <BR>
MegaTraveller Journal #4 Q&A:<BR>
"Always remember however, it's your Traveller game.  If you prefer to add<BR>
combat rifleman to the cascade skill list when your players generate<BR>
characters, then go right ahead.  By all means, do what you think is the<BR>
most fun, regardless of what the rulebook says!"<BR>
- -pg. 82<BR>
 <BR>
Second, the "Standard Designs" controversy:<BR>
Evidence that the "Standard Designs" found in the MegaTraveller Imperial<BR>
Encyclopedia and on the encounter charts are not the only standard designs:<BR>
<BR>
The Scout ship encounter table shows <BR>
2: Xboat Tender, <BR>
3, 5-6: Scout Ship, <BR>
4: Non-standard, <BR>
7-10: Survey Ship, <BR>
and 11-12: Scout Cruiser.  <BR>
There are no stats for Xboat Tenders, Survey Ships, and Scout Cruisers in<BR>
the Imperial Encyclopedia (in the now-infamous "standard designs" list), yet<BR>
they are not considered "Non-standard" designs on this table (that's a<BR>
seperate entry).<BR>
 <BR>
The Xboat Ship type table is similar:<BR>
2-3: Scout Courier<BR>
4: Non-standard<BR>
5-7: Xboat<BR>
8-11: Xboat Tender<BR>
12: Xboat + Tender<BR>
Again, there are no stats for Xboats in the Imperial Encyclopedia, but they<BR>
are not a "Non-standard" design - that is a seperate entry on the table.<BR>
<BR>
As standard designs exist which are not found in the Imperial Encylcopedia<BR>
(namely Xboats, Xboat Tenders, Scout Survey Ships, and Scout Cruisers); <BR>
Therefore, the designs found in the Imperial Encyclopedia are not the limit<BR>
of standard designs, they are a sampling.<BR>
<BR>
Will you accept that reasoning, Peter?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 12:10:02 -0500<BR>
From: Bill Dunn <bdunn@epicsystems.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Running A Sci-Fi Campaign<BR>
<BR>
Good points all around. In answer to a couple of follow-ups:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 11:05:33 -0600 (CST)<BR>
>From: "Jason Kemp" <Jason.Kemp@tdh.state.tx.us><BR>
>Subject: Re: Running A Sci-Fi Campaign<BR>
>> The players might not have a clear idea of the universe works. If<BR>
>> you suspect this to be the case, prepare handouts (about Aliens,<BR>
>> Technology, social groups, history). These should not be extremely<BR>
>> long, just long enough to explain the core concepts.<BR>
><BR>
>This is exactly one of the problems my more vocal player keeps<BR>
>spouting as his defense against trying the game again. What are some<BR>
>good guidelines about preparing handouts that will make them more<BR>
>interesting to the players?<BR>
<BR>
I had to make up a set of handouts for my Oriental Adventure players when<BR>
running that for AD&D. The setting was just different enough from regular,<BR>
medieval European AD&D that I thought it was necessary. I made up 3-page<BR>
handouts for characters from particular countries that gave 1-3 paragraphs<BR>
on the politics, society, customs, national dress, currencies, and<BR>
one-liners on what someone from that country thought of natives from other<BR>
countries. Then I gave each player a single-page handout on his/her family<BR>
and other specifics for the character including embedding some adventure<BR>
hooks and other specialized knowledge. When I started running Traveller<BR>
(which changes in university life ended after only a few sessions), I<BR>
photocopied the Concise History of the Imperium from Traveller Digest and<BR>
routed it around the group. Then in character generation we spent a lot of<BR>
time talking about the sort of character that was developing. There was<BR>
plenty to draw upon in the published histories that it was easy to come up<BR>
with stuff. Then we took quick notes and used them.<BR>
<BR>
>That's one of the reasons I've been working sporadically on my<BR>
>Traveller Hero rules. The group is very comfortable with HERO<BR>
>System, and that would relieve a lot of tensions in the area of rules<BR>
>system unfamiliarity.<BR>
<BR>
Even though I sort of like MT rules better (particularly the task system),<BR>
GURPS Traveller really should be very easy for them to pick up as players.<BR>
There will be minimal retraining to do. The old Trav adventures and<BR>
supplements shouldn't be that hard to adapt at least for content. So you may<BR>
have to redesign some NPCs, that isn't so bad. Try adapting Villains and<BR>
Vigilantes to Champions. That's a toughie.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>I am in the processof working on the problem areas, and finding a<BR>
>time when someone isn't trying to run a game. The sad part is, as the<BR>
>group is stagnating, several of the players, being GMs themselves,<BR>
>are trying to start and run new games to capture some of the flavor<BR>
>our group once had. Sadly, it isn't working, and it's just going<BR>
>downhill. There's a big part of me that thinks it's time for new<BR>
>players and a new group, but my closest friends are among my current<BR>
>group. Tough predicament.<BR>
<BR>
That can be hard. Taking a break from role-playing can really help. Have<BR>
movie nights focusing on the genre's of movies you might want to incorporate<BR>
into game settings, play some board games, play some creative one-session<BR>
looney games like It Came from the Late, Late, Late Show (a favorite of<BR>
ours), and all the while, talk about the types of games they've always<BR>
wanted to play. We come up with lots of ideas like that, more than we have<BR>
time to implement.<BR>
<BR>
>I agree with you wholeheartedly, William. Thanks. It's hard to find<BR>
>a flavor of SF that your players can agree on. But I love the<BR>
>Traveller background, the milieux. I've invested a significant amount<BR>
>of money in my collection of Traveller books over the years,<BR>
>primarily because of the background and the potential hidden within<BR>
>the rules for many evenings of entertainment.<BR>
><BR>
>But they'd rather play fantasy. *sigh*<BR>
<BR>
It's OK to prefer to play a particular genre but they should be able to<BR>
accomodate other players' desires too from time to time. It's partly about<BR>
being a good sport, able to give and take. No one in a group of friends<BR>
should have to always to forego the things they want to do, even if the<BR>
majority is content to stay playing fantasy. I guess I'm relatively blessed<BR>
for although we generally default on AD&D when we are deciding what to do<BR>
next, we still have enough interest in other games like Call of Cthulhu,<BR>
GURPS (we've played Star Trek oriented stuff and Babylon 5 is in the works),<BR>
Oriental Adventures (which we classify as different from traditional AD&D),<BR>
and even Cyberpunk 2020 (which I don't like very much but am willing to play<BR>
because a good friend of mine really likes it). Players that are dead-set<BR>
against playing a particular genre can take a number of weeks off until they<BR>
decide they can be flexible enough to participate in something different.<BR>
<BR>
Bill Dunn<BR>
bdunn@epicsystems.com<BR>
<BR>
"People who drink light 'beer' don't like the taste of beer; they just<BR>
like to pee a lot."   --Capital Brewery, Middleton, WI<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 12:14:56 -0500<BR>
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com><BR>
Subject: Jacketed Penguins: Technology Waddles On...<BR>
<BR>
Doug, this one's for you....<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
S E Q U I M, Wash., April 11 - Knitting Sweaters For Penguins?<BR>
<BR>
It's no joke, say members of the North Olympic Shuttle and<BR>
Spindle Guild, who are cranking out tiny wool sweaters as<BR>
part of an international relief effort for fairy penguins<BR>
affected by an Australian oil spill...<BR>
<BR>
"You can just see their heads and little flippers sticking<BR>
out."<BR>
 - Pat Gallup<BR>
<BR>
For the full story, check out:<BR>
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/science/DailyNews/penguins000411.html<BR>
<BR>
David<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 09:31:08 -0800<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Peter's View of Traveller <BR>
<BR>
Bill Dunn <bdunn@epicsystems.com> wrote<BR>
<BR>
> I have to say that when I saw the list of canonical sources contructed in<BR>
> hierarchical order, I said, "This borders on obsessive-compulsive. The<BR>
> player must be a loon." <BR>
<BR>
That's not obsessive compulsive, Obsessive compulsive<BR>
would be to annotate 'The Traveller Bibliography'<BR>
with a numerical listing, in order, the canonicity of each<BR>
and every product. Obsessive compulsion would include<BR>
an attempt to collect a copy of each printing (not<BR>
version) of every Traveller book and do a careful page <BR>
by page comparison of them checking for discrepancies.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 13:18:38 -0500<BR>
From: Eris Reddoch <eris@pcola.gulf.net><BR>
Subject: Schims (was Re: Basic Economics...)<BR>
<BR>
"Douglas E. Berry" wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> >While most sets of game rules explicitly state that they are<BR>
> >written as a framework the MT rules, as written, do not.<BR>
> >Therefore the MT rules are a straitjacket not a framework.<BR>
><BR>
> !  You have got to be kidding me.  I'm serious, do you really believe this?<BR>
><BR>
> I have to ask... what in the name of Eris do you think will happen to you<BR>
> if you declare something canon in yopur MT universe?  Lightning?  Near-C<BR>
> rocks?<BR>
<BR>
Actually, Eris has been staying well away from *this* thread, but if you want<BR>
my opinion then I think Peter's recent posts have done more for the heretic<BR>
movement than all my polemics have over the past umpteen years. <g>  See what<BR>
*really* strick adherence to a written canon looks like? Add no rules, modify<BR>
no background..."Change not one jot or tittle"...right? <g><BR>
<BR>
I don't doubt that Peter does believe what he's writing. Why would he be lying<BR>
about it? After being here for years he isn't likely to suddenly be trolling<BR>
the's waters.<BR>
<BR>
IAC,  his attitude toward literal rules canon strikes me as being little<BR>
different from certain other folk's attitude toward literal background canon.<BR>
Both are diameterically opposed to *my* views, but we all know YTU's vary. Mine<BR>
more than most.<BR>
<BR>
What this thread makes  clear, I think, is that even with the *supposed* OTU,<BR>
one man's view isn't every man's view.Peter's views of the MT rules are his<BR>
opinion and he's welcome to them.  They aren't mine. It doesn't bother me that<BR>
we have different opinions. Yes, it might limit what and how we can discuss<BR>
things Traveller, seeing as we would be talking past each other in many<BR>
cases...but that's no reason to "have a cow", is it?<BR>
<BR>
There are many roads to Traveller, play the game!<BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 11:34:26<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Schims (was Re: Basic Economics...)<BR>
<BR>
At 01:18 PM 4/11/2000 -0500, you wrote:<BR>
>"Douglas E. Berry" wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>> I have to ask... what in the name of Eris do you think will happen to you<BR>
>> if you declare something canon in yopur MT universe?  Lightning?  Near-C<BR>
>> rocks?<BR>
><BR>
>Actually, Eris has been staying well away from *this* thread, <BR>
<BR>
Not you, but the Goddess of Discord.<BR>
<BR>
You do a pretty good impression though...<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 18:38:02 GMT<BR>
From: "Boris Cibic" <kafka47@hotmail.com><BR>
Subject: Loeskalth and Far Frontiers Sector Data?<BR>
<BR>
To the gentleman (who I hope is not a player) the Loeskalth are the Sky <BR>
Raiders of the wonderful trilogy written by the Keiths for FASA.  You would <BR>
also find them in the Traveller Chronicle detailling of FF Sector.  I am not <BR>
sure if they have had treatise anywhere else.  But Swordy's manuscript looks <BR>
promising, even though he is cryptic toward the author and authenticity.  <BR>
TELL ME Swordy, what other Secrets are you in possession of?<BR>
   I have used the Loeskalth in my expanded campaign entitled the 77 wonders <BR>
of the universe (read:  charted space).  As this campaign fizzled out.  I <BR>
could see two interrelated adventure lines:<BR>
<BR>
Far Frontiers Campaign<BR>
   There is plenty of potential for their use in a Far Frontiers campaign.  <BR>
In which some world disgusted with the current pocket empires which govern <BR>
over the Far Frontiers traces their ethnic heritage back to the glory of the <BR>
Sky Raiders and begins a bloody civil war.<BR>
<BR>
Imperial Campaign<BR>
  As alternative have another generation ship, save, these inhabitants would <BR>
be in Cold Sleep awakening to plunder a TL A world somewhere on the edge of <BR>
Imperial Territory, hijacking an Imperial Destroyer or Battleship.  The <BR>
Imperium would think that they were some meddlesome pirates, but instead <BR>
they are looking for lebensraum in which to recreate the 2nd Glorious <BR>
(Pocket) Empire of the Sky Raiders.  They could either ally themselves with <BR>
a Client State or Pocket Empire in the region.  Before the Imperium gets <BR>
wind of what they are doing (and wants to perform a General Custard <BR>
maneuver) they jump out or leave the system.  Thus becoming a violent <BR>
political organization, akin to the various militia groups in the USA.  <BR>
Spreading a gospel of rebellion against Central Authority recruiting where <BR>
ever and whenever they can before finding a Sanctuary on some sympathetic <BR>
Hi-Tech, Hi-Pop world out in the boonies.  Waiting for the right moment to <BR>
strike.<BR>
______________________________________________________<BR>
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 13:38:48 -0500<BR>
From: Eris Reddoch <eris@pcola.gulf.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Vaya Con Dios class ship<BR>
<BR>
Nick Bradbeer wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Sure, I've heard a lot of bad things said about T4 over the years, and many<BR>
> of those I can quite believe are justified (mainly those concerning the<BR>
> product quality). But in spite of it all, there's a lot going for the game.<BR>
> If it hadn't been for the problems on the business end of the game, I think<BR>
> it could have been a great.<BR>
<BR>
I agree with those sentiments, Nick.<BR>
<BR>
> Anyway, having discovered all that, and downloading the Akins spreadsheet, I<BR>
> seem to be falling in love with FFS2. Hmm....wonder where I can get a copy.<BR>
><BR>
> Nick<BR>
> +++<BR>
> I sense some TNE heresy coming on. Eris - can I borrow your hat?<BR>
<BR>
Sure, thing, Nick!  Give me a sec and I'll clone you one. <g><BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 14:16:16 -0500<BR>
From: Eris Reddoch <eris@pcola.gulf.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Schims (was Re: Basic Economics...)<BR>
<BR>
"Douglas E. Berry" wrote:<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
> >> I have to ask... what in the name of Eris do you think will happen to you<BR>
> >> if you declare something canon in yopur MT universe?  Lightning?  Near-C<BR>
> >> rocks?<BR>
> ><BR>
> >Actually, Eris has been staying well away from *this* thread,<BR>
><BR>
> Not you, but the Goddess of Discord.<BR>
<BR>
I know, but I couldn't pass up that opportunity. Besides, who's to say, I'm<BR>
*not*... <g><BR>
<BR>
> You do a pretty good impression though...<BR>
<BR>
So, I've been told. Hee, hee!  Actually, I'm the sober, conservative type given<BR>
more to introspective thought than chaotic action...but I *do* like to stir the<BR>
pot from time to time.<BR>
<BR>
Eris,<BR>
   old coot and heretic to boot!<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 19:18:03 GMT<BR>
From: "Boris Cibic" <kafka47@hotmail.com><BR>
Subject: Wars within the Imperium or Hegemony (long)<BR>
<BR>
Wow!  At last, an opportunity to preach:  in my Traveller Universe, I use <BR>
the Gramscian notion of Hegemony to convey ruling political structures such <BR>
as the 3I, Zhodani Consulate, 2000 Worlds, etc.  albeit in a highly modified <BR>
way...as all these societies are not unified civil societies with deep roots <BR>
thus, are in the process of becoming hegemonic.<BR>
   For those interested in International Relations and the Gramscian <BR>
approach to it, may I suggest, the works of Robert W. Cox and Stephen Gill.  <BR>
The former is the pioneer of this approach while the latter is an <BR>
opportunistic disciple. (having had both of them as professors, I know them <BR>
personally).<BR>
What did Antonio Gramsci and others write about Hegemony, you ask?<BR>
  Drawing upon Machiavelli's dual conception of Power as a centaur - half <BR>
man and half beast reflecting the need for physical force and force of <BR>
intellect.  Also, keeping in mind, that the Prince must not only speak to <BR>
the palace but to the piazza (literally, the square or interpreted as the <BR>
people) as well.  Thus for Gramsci, power also had a dualistic nature it <BR>
contained overt coercion which he termed domination and it also contained <BR>
the need for winning consent which he christened hegemony.  Hegemony was <BR>
more than powerful and persuasive arguments to be made in the realm of <BR>
ideas.  It required the active building of an intellectual and moral <BR>
foundations to be founded upon which the vast majority of the population <BR>
consented to.<BR>
	"[H]egemony" goes beyond "ideology"...What is decisive is not only the <BR>
conscious system of ideas and beliefs, but the whole lived social process as <BR>
practically organized by specific dominant meanings and values.  A lived <BR>
hegemony is always a process.  It is not, except analytically, a system or a <BR>
structure.  It is a realized complex of experiences, relationships, and <BR>
activities, with specific and changing pressures and limits.  In practice, <BR>
that is, hegemony can never be singular.  Its internal structures are highly <BR>
complex, as can readily be seen in any concrete analysis.  Moreover (and <BR>
this is crucial, reminding us of the necessary thrust of the concept), it <BR>
does not just exist passively with as a form of dominance.  It has to be <BR>
continually to be renewed, recreated, defended, and modified.  It also has <BR>
to be continually resisted, limited, altered, challenged by pressures not at <BR>
all its own.  We have then to add to the concept of hegemony the concepts of <BR>
counter-hegemony and alternative hegemony, which are real and persistent <BR>
elements of practice.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
     The hegemonic project in modern times has been led by the dynamic <BR>
bourgeoisie.  So what distinuishes hegemony from Ideology?<BR>
<BR>
On author notes that if one examines one wire [(a particular ideology)] of a <BR>
birdcage [(hegemony)], one can neither see the other wires nor understand <BR>
why the cage is so confining.  One might wonder why the bird would not fly <BR>
around that wire and go free.  The same would be true if one were to inspect <BR>
each wire separately - it would not be apparent why any one wire would <BR>
constrain the bird.  It is only by stepping back and contemplating the <BR>
entire structure - the interconnected and mutually reinforcing system of <BR>
barriers - that one can see why the bird is trapped.  Similarly, one needs <BR>
to step back from particular oppressive structures to see their mutually <BR>
reinforcing structures.<BR>
<BR>
Which directly ties in Political History can be read as a succession of <BR>
Historic Blocs.  Historic Blocs are:  historic bloc can be seen as a <BR>
corresponding for a given form of state.  And Gramsci saw the State as:  <BR>
"State = political society + civil society, in other words hegemony <BR>
protected by the amour of coercion".<BR>
<BR>
The brilliance of Robert W. Cox was to see that to see how this corresponded <BR>
to the question of International and Inter-State governance.  In which:<BR>
These three levels are conceptually distinct but interrelated in practice.  <BR>
Production creates the material basis for all forms of social existence, and <BR>
the ways in which human productive efforts are combined in productive <BR>
processes affect all other aspects of social life, including the polity.  <BR>
Production generates the capacity to exercise power, but power in the form <BR>
of state determines the manner in which production takes place.  The <BR>
structure of the world order, in turn, conditions the possibilities of the <BR>
formation and development of different forms of state and of production.<BR>
<BR>
I will let referee's do what they want with these ideas but, strongly <BR>
suggest if they are interested more in these concepts contact me off the <BR>
list, as the TML can't support a protracted argument into the nature of <BR>
Imperial rule for too much longer.<BR>
Boris Cibic<BR>
kafka47@hotmail.com<BR>
<BR>
______________________________________________________<BR>
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 00:02:05 -0700<BR>
From: Keith Johnson <keithalanjohnson@home.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Maps of the Imperium site gone?<BR>
<BR>
At 03:01 PM 4/10/00 -0400, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>I tried once more today to download A. Jackson's great analysis of<BR>
>the trade routes of the Imperium in PDF format, and it looks like the<BR>
>server is back up and running, but without his website on it.<BR>
<snip><BR>
>I've tried a few of the other links I have to the same website, but<BR>
>get the same response. Any thoughts out there on my next course of<BR>
>action?<BR>
<BR>
Anthony has kindly allowed me to host the files directly on the SJ Games site.<BR>
<BR>
They are located at http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/traveller/maps.html, and <BR>
the Far Trader and GT rulebook pages have a link pointing to it as well.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
_________________________________________________________<BR>
Rev. Keith Johnson      /\     keith@sjgames.com<BR>
Assistant Webmaster    /()\    keithalanjohnson@home.com<BR>
Steve Jackson Games   /____\   reverendkeith@hotmail.com<BR>
<BR>
  IMTU tm++@ t4+@ tg++$ ru- ge-@ st+ pi+ he+ dr+ hi-@ zh+<BR>
_________________________________________________________ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 15:46:07 -0400<BR>
From: "Sword-Worlder" <swordworlder@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Loeskalth and Far Frontiers Sector Data?<BR>
<BR>
I just mentioned that Dale Kemper's manuscript for the supplement "The Far<BR>
Frontiers Sector" (though it covers only the rimward half) exists still and<BR>
is in good hands.  Dale published much of the info in Ares magazine after<BR>
FASA decided not to publish the supplement.  Later, Dale did the rimward<BR>
half of the sector and James Kundert did the coreward half in a series of<BR>
articles for the Traveller Chronicle.  The TC articles expand on what was in<BR>
Ares SE2, so you'd need to have both to get all of the details.  The copy of<BR>
Ares and those early issues of TC ( 2 thru 4 ) are hard to come by, so it is<BR>
possible that the supplement may be published in some limited way, if it is<BR>
clear of encumbrances, so that more people have access to it.  For all of<BR>
that, I have not compared the manuscript with the four articles to see if<BR>
all of the supplement is actually out, or if Dale made changes between the<BR>
first writing and the magazine articles.  I'll report more, if I can, when I<BR>
know.<BR>
<BR>
- -Colin<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: Boris Cibic <kafka47@hotmail.com><BR>
> sure if they have had treatise anywhere else.  But Swordy's manuscript<BR>
looks<BR>
> promising, even though he is cryptic toward the author and authenticity.<BR>
> TELL ME Swordy, what other Secrets are you in possession of?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 15:50:08 -0400<BR>
From: "Sword-Worlder" <swordworlder@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Far Frontiers Sector Data?<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: <Qstor@aol.com><BR>
> I was looking for the whole sector....I'd love to see it on the Web or in<BR>
> print....If it was in print Id certainly buy it....<BR>
<BR>
Since the halves have two different authors, and since not even the<BR>
subsector names jibe between the two, that seems unlikely, at least until<BR>
the DVD version ;-)<BR>
<BR>
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^<BR>
Colin Michael, WebDev<BR>
www.downport.com<BR>
The Traveller Domain<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 18:46:16 +0100<BR>
From: "Nick Bradbeer" <nickb@ndirect.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: Peter's view of Traveller<BR>
<BR>
>As co-writer, I would like to point out that we forgot to include rules for<BR>
>grav-pong in ACQ.  I guess that settles *that* argument once and for all :)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
WHAT!<BR>
<BR>
Well, I'm not buying it then.<BR>
<BR>
Nick<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 19:00:21 +0100<BR>
From: "Nick Bradbeer" <nickb@ndirect.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: the war in Pennsylvania<BR>
<BR>
>> At my last Student Senate meet in 1984, we outlawed pretentious Jesuit<BR>
Prep<BR>
>> schools.  The vote was 98-2.<BR>
><BR>
>The closest I ever came to Student government was plotting the violent<BR>
overthrow<BR>
>of mine...<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Actually, I've discovered a much more entertaining way to make the most of<BR>
student government. "Fantasy DSU*"<BR>
<BR>
(*Durham Student Union)<BR>
<BR>
Essentially, each player picks a desired outcome for an upcoming issue to be<BR>
decided by the Union. Then, without actually getting involved on any<BR>
official level, you attempt to try and throw the outcome your way using<BR>
whatever methods you can bring to bear. The more difficult or ridiculous the<BR>
achieved outcome, the less effort expended in achieving it, or the most<BR>
outlandishly illegal methods, all win more kudos.<BR>
<BR>
Since the Union don't make any important decisions, yet take it all<BR>
incredibly seriously, they're the ideal training ground for Machiavellian<BR>
lobbying, which as we all know, is a useful life skill. Who says university<BR>
doesn't teach you anything useful?<BR>
<BR>
Nick<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 19:29:01 +0100<BR>
From: "Nick Bradbeer" <nickb@ndirect.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: Running A Sci-Fi Campaign<BR>
<BR>
>Jason Kemp writes:<BR>
> My own experience has been that many players find it hard to<BR>
> motivate their characters in Traveller.  In most fantasy games<BR>
> that I have run there is Good and Evil, a Quest, or at<BR>
> least Us and Them.<BR>
<BR>
I hate to sound like I'm trying to convert, but the post-Virus setting is<BR>
one of the best motivators I've found in the system. It also helps to<BR>
overcome the lack of familiarity new players will have with the whole<BR>
science background.<BR>
<BR>
Setting your game for example, on a collapsed world which is just regaining<BR>
spaceflight, means that the world is rediscovering a lot even as the players<BR>
learn. So the players didn't know that lasers aren't very good against<BR>
armour? Well, it's quite probable that nobody on their world knew that, if<BR>
nobody had any working lasers. They learn from experience in and out of<BR>
character - which is very rewarding. And early on, this very lack of<BR>
experience is their greatest obstacle - even defeating very small opponents<BR>
or overcoming quite simple problems is made that much more challenging.<BR>
<BR>
There's also the built-in motivation of climbing back out of the night.<BR>
Whether your players are interested in scavenging high-tech kit to make life<BR>
easier for themselves and immediate friends, or trying to kickstart the<BR>
recovery of the whole Imperium, it's a very obvious Good Guys Against The<BR>
Universe path to take.<BR>
<BR>
This is similar to the problem I had to overcome starting my own campaign -<BR>
my players grew up on AD&D and Ars Magica - so the pocket empire we play in<BR>
was designed specifically around the 'recovery' scenario, and the campaign<BR>
allows the players to be on the forefront of the efforts to Bring It All<BR>
Back. They're playing fairly average Joes, with an opportunity to make a big<BR>
difference.<BR>
<BR>
Nick<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2294<BR>
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Traveller-digest      Tuesday, April 11 2000      Volume 1999 : Number 2295<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Any one going to Eastercon this year?<BR>
Re: Wars in the Imperium<BR>
FFS2 - UK Games Outlets<BR>
Re: Running A Sci-Fi Campaign<BR>
Re: Any one going to Eastercon this year?<BR>
Traveller Skills Compendium?<BR>
Planet Three Software<BR>
RE: Traveller Skills Compendium?<BR>
Re: Running A Sci-Fi Campaign<BR>
RE: Wars within the Imperium<BR>
RE: Running A Sci-Fi Campaign<BR>
Re: Peter's view of Traveller<BR>
Re: Secrets of ACQ<BR>
Re: Jacketed Penguins: Technology Waddles On...<BR>
Re: Stop me, I'm filking<BR>
Re: Far Frontiers Sector Data?<BR>
Re: Loeskalth and Far Frontiers Sector Data?<BR>
RE: Running A Sci-Fi Campaign<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 21:24:45 +0100<BR>
From: "Charles Nicholas Walker" <cnw@globalnet.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Any one going to Eastercon this year?<BR>
<BR>
Hi sorry this is OT<BR>
but is anyone going to <BR>
2Kon~Eastercon 2000 in Glasgow<BR>
if so I will bring some traveller stuff<BR>
or am I shouting into a Void?<BR>
<BR>
Ob. Trav............<BR>
How hard is it to find a games group at a Starport?<BR>
<BR>
Sorry<BR>
<BR>
Nick.<BR>
Behold,  his feet leave tracks in the sands of time,<BR>
and Death walks at his left hand...<BR>
UTUP.<BR>
0609-A666A667-5-5-2<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 13:35:07 -0700<BR>
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Wars in the Imperium<BR>
<BR>
VonRammen wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com> wrote in re the Falklands War:<BR>
> <BR>
> >I was rather disappointed at the time not to see President<BR>
> >Reagan invoke the Monroe Doctrine and broker a peace by making<BR>
> >the Falklands a US protectorate.  (The Monroe Doctrine, espoused<BR>
> >by President Monroe a very long time ago, basically says that it<BR>
> >is United States policy to oppose any European state's assertion<BR>
> >of hegemony in North and South America -- that is, only the USA<BR>
> >is to have hegemony over the Americas.)<BR>
> <BR>
> I used to wonder at that too; however, IIRC, the Monroe Doctrine<BR>
> specifically applied only to "new interference," i.e. it did not apply to<BR>
> European possessions in the Americas at the time of its promulgation. Thus,<BR>
> the U.S. didn't use the Monroe Doctrine against British Oregon, Spanish<BR>
> Cuba, French Guyana, etc et al.<BR>
<BR>
At the time, no. The Monroe Doctrine was specifically intended to<BR>
prevent _further_ annexations of Western Hemisphere territory by<BR>
European powers, or (more importantly) reclaiming territories lost via<BR>
revolution. <BR>
<BR>
But the Monroe Doctrine _was_ hauled out of mothballs to help justify<BR>
the Spanish-American War at the beginning of this century.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Bruce Johnson<BR>
University of Arizona<BR>
College of Pharmacy<BR>
Information Technology Group<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 21:33:14 +0100<BR>
From: "Nick Bradbeer" <nickb@ndirect.co.uk><BR>
Subject: FFS2 - UK Games Outlets<BR>
<BR>
Alright, I'm trying to get ahold of a copy of FFS2 before it disappears from<BR>
the world altogether. I'm also trying to get a copy of GURPS Vehicles, but<BR>
I'm less worried about that because SJ Games are pretty easy to find or<BR>
order through games stores.<BR>
<BR>
I'll be heading in to my FLGS tomorrow to see if they can place an order<BR>
through somebody, but I have pretty slim hopes of that. The only Trav stuff<BR>
they ever have is in the trade bins these days - the shop's selling more<BR>
RIFTS, CCGs and board games <sigh>.<BR>
<BR>
Does anybody know of any mail order outlets in the UK (or US ones which<BR>
don't charge 40% postage) which might have it? I've tried leisuregames to no<BR>
avail.<BR>
<BR>
Oh Dom, is there somebody I can mail to see if there's a copy in the BITS<BR>
collection?<BR>
<BR>
Nick<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 22:09:06 +0200<BR>
From: Jens Rydholm <jenry023@student.liu.se><BR>
Subject: Re: Running A Sci-Fi Campaign<BR>
<BR>
Jason Kemp wrote:<BR>
> One of the players loves political intrigue, but the rest don't <BR>
> really get off on it. Another really enjoys psionics/magic, and <BR>
> having powers as an advantage over others. Yet another wants good <BR>
> roleplay ops. All of them enjoy the occasional fight scene, and <BR>
> rolling the dice.<BR>
<BR>
Hmmm... a noble (with some political power), an shady advisor of said noble<BR>
(with psionic powers), and a friend/family member of the noble (with a<BR>
somewhat extreme and/or outspoken personality). That would make kind of an<BR>
exciting group.<BR>
<BR>
> [Understanding the universe} is exactly one of the problems my more<BR>
> vocal player keeps spouting as his defense against trying the game<BR>
> again. What are some good guidelines about preparing handouts that<BR>
> will make them more interesting to the players?<BR>
<BR>
* Make them short.<BR>
<BR>
* Make sure you address all topics that are vital to the setting (for example<BR>
descriptions of all major empires, as well as most of the small ones close by).<BR>
<BR>
* Address those technical ideas of the game that will be vital to understanding<BR>
the first few sessions (jumpdrive operation, energy weapons, ID-cards etc).<BR>
<BR>
* Describe the society the characters come from and live in.<BR>
<BR>
* Don't make the handouts too long (did I forget to mention that?)<BR>
<BR>
> That's one of the reasons I've been working sporadically on my <BR>
> Traveller Hero rules. The group is very comfortable with HERO <BR>
> System, and that would relieve a lot of tensions in the area of rules <BR>
> system unfamiliarity.<BR>
<BR>
You might want to describe every part of the Traveller rules in relation to the<BR>
Hero rules (ie attack rolls are made this way instead of that way). If they<BR>
really hate the Traveller rules, use the Hero rules instead (or a hybrid, as<BR>
you are suggesting).<BR>
<BR>
> I am in the processof working on the problem areas, and finding a <BR>
> time when someone isn't trying to run a game. The sad part is, as the <BR>
> group is stagnating, several of the players, being GMs themselves, <BR>
> are trying to start and run new games to capture some of the flavor <BR>
> our group once had. Sadly, it isn't working, and it's just going <BR>
> downhill. There's a big part of me that thinks it's time for new <BR>
> players and a new group, but my closest friends are among my current <BR>
> group. Tough predicament.<BR>
<BR>
I recognize that problem as well. Fun thing is, the best thing to do if you<BR>
want to keep the group together is to try to find a new type of game to play.<BR>
That game just might be Traveller. Be sure to tell your group this, and take<BR>
turns running various unusual (for your group, that is) games. If you find a<BR>
game that you find interesting, your group will probably gain new energy.<BR>
<BR>
I was (as a Fantasy GM) feeling the same kind of problem that you mention. The<BR>
two groups I ran games for had both stagnated, and I went looking for something<BR>
else to play. I found a game (WoD) that appealed to one of the groups (still<BR>
active), but the other group sadly fell apart. I have since moved to a new town<BR>
(university studies), but I play with the first group every now and then. At<BR>
the university I have found a group that enjoy both games.<BR>
<BR>
Either find a new kind of game or a new group of people to play with. None of<BR>
those alternatives are really *that* hard, and they both work.<BR>
<BR>
+--------------------------------------+---------------------------------------+<BR>
|                                      |                                       |<BR>
| Name: Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm       | By receiving this message, you do NOT |<BR>
| Mail: jenry023@student.liu.se        | receive the right to use my address   |<BR>
| Home: http://m227.ryd.student.liu.se | for advertisement purposes. Doing so  |<BR>
| ICQ#: 3844745                        | will be punished by public flogging.  |<BR>
|                                      |                                       |<BR>
+--------------------------------------+---------------------------------------+<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 21:36:26 +0100<BR>
From: "Nick Bradbeer" <nickb@ndirect.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: Any one going to Eastercon this year?<BR>
<BR>
>Hi sorry this is OT<BR>
>but is anyone going to<BR>
>2Kon~Eastercon 2000 in Glasgow<BR>
>if so I will bring some traveller stuff<BR>
>or am I shouting into a Void?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
I'd say that wasn't too far off topic. When's the Con?<BR>
<BR>
NB<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 16:51:49 -0400<BR>
From: Jeff Zeitlin <jzeitlin@cyburban.com><BR>
Subject: Traveller Skills Compendium?<BR>
<BR>
I have an idea kicking around in the back of my skull. In the<BR>
past, when this has happened, it has often been because someone<BR>
else did it, I saw it, and then forgot about it.<BR>
<BR>
Does anyone know of a (web- or ftp-accessible) compilation of all<BR>
skills described in Traveller or any 'canonical' supplement for<BR>
Traveller? If not, would this be a Good Thing to develop?<BR>
<BR>
If there is someone here with working knowledge of the legal<BR>
issues involved in something like this, would those people please<BR>
hit me with the appropriate clue-by-fours so I don't put my foot<BR>
in it?<BR>
<BR>
Note that I am envisioning this as essentially a "Webster's<BR>
Dictionary of Traveller Skills" - no procedures for resolution of<BR>
tasks involving the skills, no indications of how a character<BR>
gets the skill, just the name of the skill (and any alternates<BR>
from other versions of Traveller), the description of the skill,<BR>
and an indication of the source. _Possibly_, depending on the<BR>
ultimate size/complexity of the project, a *ix-style "permuted<BR>
index" is contemplated, to make it easier for someone looking for<BR>
a skill for a particular purpose to find the "right" one.<BR>
<BR>
Again, depending on various viability-affecting factors, I may<BR>
also ask for your input - have you invented skills to fill in<BR>
gaps in the skill set, and if so, what are they? Don't send or<BR>
post them yet; but keep the question in mind...<BR>
- --<BR>
Jeff Zeitlin<BR>
jzeitlin@cyburban.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 16:51:52 -0400<BR>
From: Jeff Zeitlin <jzeitlin@cyburban.com><BR>
Subject: Planet Three Software<BR>
<BR>
It turns out that I will _not_ be able to have a copy of the<BR>
software in question available _on_ Freelance Traveller; it's<BR>
just too damn large for my mirror site (sigh).  However, if<BR>
people send me URLs of where it can be downloaded from, it _will_<BR>
get appropriate links from Freelance Traveller's Computer<BR>
Connection.<BR>
<BR>
The tool is WinHelp-based; if I can figure out what's going on in<BR>
some of the add-on features, I may be able to generate more<BR>
sectors, and/or add library data to the five existing sectors.<BR>
<BR>
I'll point out that Jim Vassilakos's GALACTIC has more<BR>
functionality; the only feature that P3 has that GALACTIC lacks<BR>
is the Windows look-and-feel - and P3 lacks _many_ features that<BR>
GALACTIC has.<BR>
<BR>
N.B. I seem to recall commenting recently that it doesn't work<BR>
properly on Win9x; that may not be completely correct - I<BR>
installed it on a Win98 system today, and it worked just fine.<BR>
The Win95 problem may just be in my bastardized Compaq system;<BR>
I'd have to do additional research to determine it for sure.<BR>
<BR>
Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture <BR>
Enterprises, 1977-2000.  Use of the trademark in <BR>
this notice and in the referenced materials is not <BR>
intended to infringe or devalue the trademark.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
Jeff Zeitlin, Editor<BR>
Freelance Traveller - The Electronic Fan-Supported Traveller Resource<BR>
http://come.to/FreelanceTraveller<BR>
http://www.downport.com/freelancetraveller/Default.htm<BR>
freelancetraveller@yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 14:57:50 -0600<BR>
From: Jason Postma <JasonP@i-link.net><BR>
Subject: RE: Traveller Skills Compendium?<BR>
<BR>
Doesn't GURPS: Traveller have a big list of skills from prior editions of<BR>
Traveller in the conversion rules?  IIRC they list the game source too (CT,<BR>
MT, TNE, T4).<BR>
<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
From: Jeff Zeitlin [mailto:jzeitlin@cyburban.com]<BR>
Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2000 2:52 PM<BR>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Subject: Traveller Skills Compendium?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
I have an idea kicking around in the back of my skull. In the<BR>
past, when this has happened, it has often been because someone<BR>
else did it, I saw it, and then forgot about it.<BR>
<BR>
Does anyone know of a (web- or ftp-accessible) compilation of all<BR>
skills described in Traveller or any 'canonical' supplement for<BR>
Traveller? If not, would this be a Good Thing to develop?<BR>
<BR>
If there is someone here with working knowledge of the legal<BR>
issues involved in something like this, would those people please<BR>
hit me with the appropriate clue-by-fours so I don't put my foot<BR>
in it?<BR>
<BR>
Note that I am envisioning this as essentially a "Webster's<BR>
Dictionary of Traveller Skills" - no procedures for resolution of<BR>
tasks involving the skills, no indications of how a character<BR>
gets the skill, just the name of the skill (and any alternates<BR>
from other versions of Traveller), the description of the skill,<BR>
and an indication of the source. _Possibly_, depending on the<BR>
ultimate size/complexity of the project, a *ix-style "permuted<BR>
index" is contemplated, to make it easier for someone looking for<BR>
a skill for a particular purpose to find the "right" one.<BR>
<BR>
Again, depending on various viability-affecting factors, I may<BR>
also ask for your input - have you invented skills to fill in<BR>
gaps in the skill set, and if so, what are they? Don't send or<BR>
post them yet; but keep the question in mind...<BR>
- --<BR>
Jeff Zeitlin<BR>
jzeitlin@cyburban.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 16:03:10 -0600 (CST)<BR>
From: "Jason Kemp" <Jason.Kemp@tdh.state.tx.us><BR>
Subject: Re: Running A Sci-Fi Campaign<BR>
<BR>
Good afternoon, fellow sophonts,<BR>
<BR>
More comments and supportive strategies. Thanks very much for your <BR>
input and suggestions so far. I hope that others are finding them as <BR>
helpful as I am.<BR>
<BR>
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca><BR>
<BR>
>  My own experience has been that many players find it hard to<BR>
>  motivate their characters in Traveller.  In most fantasy games<BR>
>  that I have run there is Good and Evil, a Quest, or at<BR>
>  least Us and Them.  The players find it easy to find a<BR>
>  direction for their characters: fight Evil, complete the Quest,<BR>
>  destroy Them.  I like to allow my PCs as much freedom as <BR>
>  possible to go where they will, but I have found that in<BR>
>  Traveller I often need to exersize more direct control of<BR>
>  what they are doing in order to involve them in specific<BR>
>  adventures.  Usually this has involved getting a patron to<BR>
>  send them hither and thither, but I have also considered having<BR>
>  them work for the Scouts, a Megacorp, or some such.  I have<BR>
>  never run a Merc campaign, but it would probably be relatively<BR>
>  easy to motivate players in that millieu.<BR>
<BR>
My current thoughts are to try the IISS Rangers variant proposed for <BR>
GT by Glenn St-Germain. (See JTAS Archives for details.) Either that, <BR>
or a psionic secret society. The enemies of the PC organization <BR>
become the Bad Guys, and they get a patron to direct them when they <BR>
need it.<BR>
<BR>
>  Some good advice has already been offered.  I certainly recommend<BR>
>  providing hand-outs so that the players have a good idea of how<BR>
>  the universe works (as short as possible).  All the usual GMing<BR>
>  skills should be involved: have fun with the technology but don't<BR>
>  forget the role-playing interactions.  If the players don't seem<BR>
>  to know what to do, start them right away in the employ of a patron<BR>
>  or other motivator.  One difference in GMing is that Traveller<BR>
>  typically involves lots and lots of worlds, making it difficult to<BR>
>  have detail in each.  I concentrate on the "feel" of each world,<BR>
>  and only add detail as required.  Another thing that happens in<BR>
>  Traveller is that characters can spend weeks doing little or<BR>
>  nothing.  Streamlining these periods (but allowing the characters<BR>
>  to train/heal/do maintenance/etc.) is helpful.<BR>
<BR>
That's already similar to overland travel in Fantasy games. I gloss <BR>
over the boring stretches, unless a random or pre-determined <BR>
encounter calls attention to it, and then move on.<BR>
<BR>
>  Of course, some players just prefer some genres, and some systems,<BR>
>  to others.  My group tends to cycle through Traveller, Runequest,<BR>
>  Star Trek TRPG, and Villains and Vigilantes.  We all have our<BR>
>  preferences, I run out of ideas, inspiration fades...  It works<BR>
>  out for us.  Usually we stick with one game for 6 months to a year.<BR>
>  Good luck, and keep us posted!<BR>
<BR>
Thanks for the helpful comments, Peez! I appreciate it!<BR>
<BR>
From: Bill Dunn <bdunn@epicsystems.com><BR>
<BR>
> I had to make up a set of handouts for my Oriental Adventure players when<BR>
> running that for AD&D. The setting was just different enough from regular,<BR>
> medieval European AD&D that I thought it was necessary. I made up 3-page<BR>
> handouts for characters from particular countries that gave 1-3 paragraphs<BR>
> on the politics, society, customs, national dress, currencies, and<BR>
> one-liners on what someone from that country thought of natives from other<BR>
> countries. Then I gave each player a single-page handout on his/her family<BR>
> and other specifics for the character including embedding some adventure<BR>
> hooks and other specialized knowledge. When I started running Traveller<BR>
> (which changes in university life ended after only a few sessions), I<BR>
> photocopied the Concise History of the Imperium from Traveller Digest and<BR>
> routed it around the group. Then in character generation we spent a lot of<BR>
> time talking about the sort of character that was developing. There was<BR>
> plenty to draw upon in the published histories that it was easy to come up<BR>
> with stuff. Then we took quick notes and used them.<BR>
<BR>
Sounds good. Again, this level of personal attention during creation <BR>
isn't something we're used to as a group (except for the occasional <BR>
campaign,) but it looks like this will call for such an emphasis.<BR>
<BR>
> Even though I sort of like MT rules better (particularly the task system),<BR>
> GURPS Traveller really should be very easy for them to pick up as players.<BR>
> There will be minimal retraining to do. The old Trav adventures and<BR>
> supplements shouldn't be that hard to adapt at least for content. So you may<BR>
> have to redesign some NPCs, that isn't so bad. Try adapting Villains and<BR>
> Vigilantes to Champions. That's a toughie.<BR>
<BR>
Me, I'm a big fan of MT myself. I think I can swing them to it, once <BR>
they're open to the possibilities again. But I've got TravHero as a <BR>
backup, just in case. :)<BR>
<BR>
> That can be hard. Taking a break from role-playing can really help. Have<BR>
> movie nights focusing on the genre's of movies you might want to incorporate<BR>
> into game settings, play some board games, play some creative one-session<BR>
> looney games like It Came from the Late, Late, Late Show (a favorite of<BR>
> ours), and all the while, talk about the types of games they've always<BR>
> wanted to play. We come up with lots of ideas like that, more than we have<BR>
> time to implement.<BR>
<BR>
Good idea, Bill. I think we're reaching the point where that's a <BR>
definite consideration. We've been burning the gaming oil for so <BR>
long, the wick's almost gone, and it shows. Perhaps something like <BR>
that will help us rejuvenate. Thanks.<BR>
<BR>
> It's OK to prefer to play a particular genre but they should be able to<BR>
> accomodate other players' desires too from time to time. It's partly about<BR>
> being a good sport, able to give and take. No one in a group of friends<BR>
> should have to always to forego the things they want to do, even if the<BR>
> majority is content to stay playing fantasy. I guess I'm relatively blessed<BR>
> for although we generally default on AD&D when we are deciding what to do<BR>
> next, we still have enough interest in other games like Call of Cthulhu,<BR>
> GURPS (we've played Star Trek oriented stuff and Babylon 5 is in the works),<BR>
> Oriental Adventures (which we classify as different from traditional AD&D),<BR>
> and even Cyberpunk 2020 (which I don't like very much but am willing to play<BR>
> because a good friend of mine really likes it). Players that are dead-set<BR>
> against playing a particular genre can take a number of weeks off until they<BR>
> decide they can be flexible enough to participate in something different.<BR>
<BR>
Now, that's a good point. And if I do a good job, the tales of <BR>
adventure should be enough to bring them back into the fold, so to <BR>
speak. :)<BR>
<BR>
From: "Nick Bradbeer" <nickb@ndirect.co.uk><BR>
<BR>
> Setting your game for example, on a collapsed world which is just<BR>
> regaining spaceflight, means that the world is rediscovering a lot<BR>
> even as the players learn. So the players didn't know that lasers<BR>
> aren't very good against armour? Well, it's quite probable that<BR>
> nobody on their world knew that, if nobody had any working lasers.<BR>
> They learn from experience in and out of character - which is very<BR>
> rewarding. And early on, this very lack of experience is their<BR>
> greatest obstacle - even defeating very small opponents or<BR>
> overcoming quite simple problems is made that much more challenging.<BR>
> <BR>
> There's also the built-in motivation of climbing back out of the<BR>
> night. Whether your players are interested in scavenging high-tech<BR>
> kit to make life easier for themselves and immediate friends, or<BR>
> trying to kickstart the recovery of the whole Imperium, it's a very<BR>
> obvious Good Guys Against The Universe path to take.<BR>
<BR>
I've thought of this approach before. Works great with an IW/ME21 <BR>
level game, too, at least conceptually. I assume it would also work <BR>
for a M0 campaign as well, or even a heretical post-Hard <BR>
Times/non-virus campaign setting.<BR>
<BR>
Personally, what I want to explore is the 1114-1116 time period, just <BR>
prior to the assassination event, and get the PCs involved in that <BR>
issue. Depending on their actions, the 3I either goes toward <BR>
Rebellion or toward Strephon's Silver Jubilee.<BR>
<BR>
But I agree with the intent behind your suggestion. Start small, and <BR>
let the characters grow in their knowledge of the milieu as the <BR>
players grow into their knowledge of the background and technology. <BR>
Make the disadvantage part of the game. Hmm....<BR>
<BR>
Thanks, Nick.<BR>
<BR>
And a general thank you to the TML as a whole for helping me with <BR>
your feedback and suggestions. I appreciate it.<BR>
<BR>
Enjoy your afternoon,<BR>
Jason<BR>
<BR>
=============================<BR>
Jason Kemp, ADS Programmer IV<BR>
(512)458-7111 ext. 1+3375<BR>
Internet Address:  jason.kemp@tdh.state.tx.us<BR>
<BR>
Most computer virus and email alerts are hoaxes.  For more info, check out:<BR>
http://urbanlegends.miningco.com/culture/beliefs/urbanlegends/library/blhoax.htm<BR>
==============================<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 16:07:52 +0100<BR>
From: "Mark Preston" <mark@mpreston.demon.co.uk><BR>
Subject: RE: Wars within the Imperium<BR>
<BR>
If it helps at all Dom, my political management book (don't ask - I<BR>
have had broad interests in the past) describes hegemony as "the<BR>
establishment of general rules for disparate political entities by a<BR>
central authority". For instance, if the House of Lords made laws as<BR>
well as being the final arbiter of law it would have hegemony over the<BR>
UK. In theory, the monarch does (if not in practice).<BR>
<BR>
ObTrav. The Imperium itself is not a hegemony, since it leaves the<BR>
planets to themselves, but the Sword Worlds are a hegemony since they<BR>
are centrally controlled. IMTU, the Zhodani and the Hivers are also<BR>
hegemonies.<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of<BR>
> SD Mooney<BR>
> Sent: 11 April 2000 00:23<BR>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> Subject: re: Wars within the Imperium<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> >At 17:59 -0400 10/4/00, Bill Dunn <bdunn@epicsystems.com><BR>
> >The American Heritage English Dictionary defines hegemony as "the<BR>
> >predominant influence of one state over others". No requirement for<BR>
> >confederacy. That's pretty much the standard definition<BR>
> floated about<BR>
> >political science. So, yes. There are different<BR>
> definitions of hegemony<BR>
> >floating around.<BR>
><BR>
> Thanks.<BR>
> ><BR>
> >Interesting the use of Britain as an example. I won't get<BR>
> into discussions<BR>
> >about fighting for sheep (too easy a joke there), but<BR>
> Britain does have<BR>
> >ongoing territorial disputes with 2 fellow members in the<BR>
> European Community<BR>
> >(Spain and Ireland, although I guess the Irish question<BR>
> with respect to the<BR>
> >Republic has been effectively settled). The EC would never<BR>
> countenance an<BR>
> >outbreak of hostilities but the occasional political<BR>
> posturing is tolerated.<BR>
><BR>
> Yep, the Irish Government has removed the clause claiming the North<BR>
> IIRC with the Good Friday Agreement. Assuming that holds and the<BR>
> political <expletive deleted>s don't go and throw it all away.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 16:01:44 +0100<BR>
From: "Mark Preston" <mark@mpreston.demon.co.uk><BR>
Subject: RE: Running A Sci-Fi Campaign<BR>
<BR>
Looks like you've had a few answers to this one. I'd summarise the<BR>
possible reasons - from the others as well as my own ideas - as<BR>
follows:-<BR>
<BR>
1. Are your players used to experience / levels / classes games?<BR>
   If they are, you'll do better with a similar game rather than<BR>
Traveller.<BR>
<BR>
2. Are they used to killing and bloodthirsty games?<BR>
    If so, join the gun-bunny Travellers and get them a mercenary<BR>
ticket.<BR>
<BR>
3. Are they used to strictly directed games / modules?<BR>
    If so, try a similar SF module. JTAS used to do good ones.<BR>
<BR>
4. Do they need to understand the adventure world well?<BR>
    If so, play them a Milieu 0 Traveller game to start with.<BR>
    Maybe get a lot of library data to read - start with the Warrant<BR>
of Restoration.<BR>
<BR>
5. Do they actually like SF at all?<BR>
   If not, you're on a loser from the start.<BR>
   Try a primitive planet scenario to break them into it.<BR>
<BR>
6. Is the problem that _you_ don't understand the era?<BR>
    Not an unusual one, and with an obvious answer.<BR>
<BR>
In a nutshell, find out what your players do and don't like about your<BR>
SF games and build around the good points but ignore the others.<BR>
That's where all the IMTUs come from <grin>.<BR>
<BR>
Jason Kemp wrote:<BR>
> I'm a GM desperately looking for advice to improve his ability to<BR>
run<BR>
> Sci-Fi campaigns. For some reason, I think I'm missing some critical<BR>
> point, because most of my SF games tend to end rather quickly,<BR>
unlike<BR>
> my fantasy or World of Darkness games.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 14:07:58<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Peter's view of Traveller<BR>
<BR>
At 06:46 PM 4/11/2000 +0100, you wrote:<BR>
>>As co-writer, I would like to point out that we forgot to include rules for<BR>
>>grav-pong in ACQ.  I guess that settles *that* argument once and for all :)<BR>
><BR>
>WHAT!<BR>
><BR>
>Well, I'm not buying it then.<BR>
<BR>
Fear not, I'm currently writing _101 Anal Retentive Rules_ for BITS.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 14:11:04<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Secrets of ACQ<BR>
<BR>
At 11:19 PM 4/9/2000 +0100, you wrote:<BR>
>A question for those who know - you may have noticed that Derrick <BR>
>Jones and Matt Bond have been having a surreal conversation using the <BR>
>rules for ACQ and Penguins. But can anyone explain why Derrick <BR>
>prefers to eat unripened Penguins over cold, hot, custard and other <BR>
>varieties. ;-)<BR>
><BR>
>Dom - who saw him eat at least three today. 8-o<BR>
<BR>
I'm told I will learn this horrible secret in August.  <BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 14:06:16<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Jacketed Penguins: Technology Waddles On...<BR>
<BR>
At 12:14 PM 4/11/2000 -0500, you wrote:<BR>
>Doug, this one's for you....<BR>
<BR>
Hmmm... a sequel for ACQ:  Full Metal Penguin!<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 18:18:58 EDT<BR>
From: Qstor@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Stop me, I'm filking<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 4/10/00 10:42:20 PM Eastern Daylight Time, neo@total.net <BR>
writes:<BR>
<BR>
<< LIVING THROUGH ANOTHER RUBY<BR>
 (to the tune of "Living Through Another Cuba,"<BR>
 by Andy Partridge, on "Black Sea" by XTC) >><BR>
LOL....<BR>
<BR>
Mike<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 18:27:28 EDT<BR>
From: Qstor@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Far Frontiers Sector Data?<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 4/11/00 3:52:56 PM Eastern Daylight Time, <BR>
swordworlder@yahoo.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<< Since the halves have two different authors, and since not even the<BR>
 subsector names jibe between the two, that seems unlikely, at least until<BR>
 the DVD version ;-)<BR>
  >><BR>
I bet it comes out before the Phanton Menace DVD :)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 18:31:43 EDT<BR>
From: Qstor@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Loeskalth and Far Frontiers Sector Data?<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 4/11/00 3:49:56 PM Eastern Daylight Time, <BR>
swordworlder@yahoo.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<< so it is<BR>
 possible that the supplement may be published in some limited way, if it is<BR>
 clear of encumbrances, so that more people have access to it.  >><BR>
<BR>
If the authors agree mabe a limited TML printing can be made up??<BR>
<BR>
Mike<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 18:32:47 -0400<BR>
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net><BR>
Subject: RE: Running A Sci-Fi Campaign<BR>
<BR>
Jason Kemp said:<BR>
<BR>
>They are fans of sci-fi in movies and literature. However, they don't<BR>
>have a good grasp on a sci-fi gaming experience. I have discussed it<BR>
>with them to some degree, and most of this may stem from the fact<BR>
>that they feel overwhelmed by the vast amount of options they don't<BR>
>even know they have. Even in a simple scenario, they perceive that<BR>
>there might be a ton of options they don't know about, and apparently<BR>
>get frustrated with this perception.<BR>
<BR>
This makes sense, and is very common. It could be helpful to run an<BR>
adventure in which they don't have many options, or the options are clearly<BR>
delineated. In the first case you might have them break out of jail, or<BR>
break out of captivity. They could be on a crashed ship which is sinking<BR>
into an ocean, or they might have to try to get back to civilization from a<BR>
crashed ship. In the second case you could start them out as mercenaries, or<BR>
"special service" types who have their equipment and goals given to them by<BR>
a higher authority.<BR>
<BR>
What all of these situations allow is control over what equipment the player<BR>
characters will have access to, and what the conditions they are adventuring<BR>
in are. This will provide an introduction to the background without<BR>
overwhelming them with options immediately. You have control over what<BR>
options they have available, and since you have that control you can help<BR>
them out. I've done this in the past, and it's worked very well.<BR>
<BR>
>The last time I tried to run Sci-Fi was a Traveller game last year<BR>
>based on First Contact between the Terrans and the Vilani. I realized<BR>
>that I failed in not providing enough information to allow them to<BR>
>develop a grasp of the game and their potentials for action.<BR>
<BR>
Handouts could help. I know Jens has pointed this out, and you were<BR>
wondering how to go about it. I'll try to give some pointers.<BR>
<BR>
I'm from the "Call of Cthulhu" school of handouts. Handouts should serve two<BR>
functions: the first is to give information to the player characters, the<BR>
second is to draw them into the gaming world. I love giving handouts out,<BR>
and my players seem to enjoy them. When possible, try to design handouts<BR>
from **within** the game world. Physically this means that you should use<BR>
futuristic fonts. You should also add some little details here and there,<BR>
such as that old CT favorite: a barcode looking thing down in the corner of<BR>
a form. Information about a world obtained from a scout base should look<BR>
like it came from a scout base. This activity is limited by your free time<BR>
and artistic abilities. Computers can shave off a lot of time and you can<BR>
often turn out nifty stuff even without schooling in graphic design. If it<BR>
looks right, you're part of the way there.<BR>
<BR>
The content of the handout is still important, no matter how good the<BR>
physical presentation is. Getting the flavor of a universe across is often<BR>
the most difficult, but you can combine flavor text with useful background<BR>
information. I have two of the handouts which I sent to my players via email<BR>
on my website ( http://www.pil.net/~semo ). Hit the "Culture" button, and<BR>
then select "Live on Vland" or "Tom Jetland: High Passage". I like to give<BR>
the players background information without them even knowing it. In this<BR>
case I used a movie review and a concert review to impart information about<BR>
Vilani culture and the Imperial attitude toward the Solomani. There's other<BR>
stuff on my site which could be used for handouts, so feel free to look<BR>
around.<BR>
<BR>
Here are some ideas for handouts:<BR>
<BR>
News briefs (like the Traveller News Service updates)<BR>
"Galactic Encyclopedia" entries (you can use already written Library Data<BR>
here)<BR>
Glossaries<BR>
Travel guides (I picked up a Star Trek guide to the Federation once, it had<BR>
various accomodations, bars and restaurants listed, as well as certain<BR>
interesting "facts" about the worlds, it has proved useful in the years<BR>
since).<BR>
Excerpts from larger works<BR>
Poetry, songs<BR>
Descriptions of artwork<BR>
Drawings or other visual representations (if you're artistically inclined)<BR>
Sound or music (if you're musically inclined)<BR>
<BR>
I have used all of the above at one time or another in various games with a<BR>
high degree of success. It depends on the kind of interests that your<BR>
players have. What I usually like to do at first (at least a week before the<BR>
campaign starts) is give (or send) my players a short (1 to 3 page)<BR>
description of the universe, with a glossary and some information about the<BR>
area they'll be adventuring in.<BR>
<BR>
When I have the time, I don't mind tailoring a set of handouts to each<BR>
individual player. Of course, a lot of this depends on the players ability<BR>
to do a bit of homework (maybe an hour of reading, at most, over the course<BR>
of a week).<BR>
<BR>
There are other ways to introduce characters to the background as well. I<BR>
once ran a long adventure for the players that was effectively a "giant<BR>
handout". It was a scavenger hunt run once every few years by the local<BR>
ex-Scouts. The goal was to snatch up specific items and visit specific<BR>
places important to the local culture. For example, on one world they had to<BR>
visit the old Ziru Sirka governor's house, on another they had to pick up a<BR>
handcrafted breathing mask, and so on. It introduced the player characters<BR>
very briefly to the societies of many of the subsectors they were<BR>
adventuring in. It was also a lot of fun. The player characters were<BR>
competing with other groups, so they did all sorts of zany things to throw<BR>
their competitors off.<BR>
<BR>
>Part of the failing, too, is most likely in the form of the players<BR>
>that I normally game with. They do prefer fantasy to anything else,<BR>
>and are not very forgiving about trying new stuff. (Although that<BR>
>attitude has choked the group pretty much, and it's stagnating pretty<BR>
>bad, they still cling to it. Slowly, one by one, they seem to be<BR>
>approaching enlightenment, and may be willing to try something<BR>
>different. I just want to be better prepared next time, so that I<BR>
>stand a chance of running something beyond one adventure.)<BR>
<BR>
Yep, I've seen this particular affliction. You have my deepest sympathies.<BR>
This type of gaming group can be a real pain, but in all fairness, so can<BR>
the flipside (gaming groups which switch games or backgrounds week after<BR>
week).<BR>
<BR>
>Of the last few years, we've been gaming mostly in HERO, though some<BR>
>of us will play Storyteller, and even the occasional AD&D. Yep, the<BR>
>group deals a lot with an unclear perception of direction or purpose.<BR>
>This is an area I can work on, so that the ball rolls back into their<BR>
>court.<BR>
<BR>
If you plan on using something like GURPS, you may consider carefully<BR>
tailoring the characters to give them an idea of what they should do. You<BR>
can rely on cliches or archetypes (brawny fighter, finesse fighter, jack of<BR>
all trades, rogue, sneaky thief guy, surly mechanic etc.). The one thing<BR>
that I remind people who ask me for advice about playing invariably is:<BR>
cliches are cliches *for a reason*. They *work*. :)<BR>
<BR>
This doesn't mean that you have to force stereotypes on your players, or<BR>
force them to play characters they don't want to play. Watch lots of<BR>
"ensemble adventure" movies (or read lots of books of the sort): stuff like<BR>
The Dirty Dozen (and assorted WWII commando movies), Star Wars, Star Trek,<BR>
Conan the Destroyer (cheesy, I know, but it's a wonderful example of a<BR>
well-balanced adventuring party which, at least fundamentally, can be<BR>
adapted to all sorts of roleplaying games). For obvious reasons you should<BR>
stay away from "single character" stories (a lot of sci-fi books are "single<BR>
character" books, and while they're great for flavor and snagging ideas,<BR>
they aren't always great for seeing how groups with different skills can<BR>
work together). Acquire your own library of archetypes. This helps when<BR>
guiding your players through character creation ("So, do you want to play<BR>
someone like Han Solo, or someone like Spock?" A basic example, but you can<BR>
orient yourself with respect to these cliches too).<BR>
<BR>
>> If this is the case, try providing clear goals that make sense to your<BR>
>> players. You're setting them loose in the big, bad, impersonal universe.<BR>
>> They may not be familiar with how the universe is run, or what "roles"<BR>
there<BR>
>> may be to play. Just like in real life, it's helpful if the players can<BR>
>> orient themselves in future society. You might sit down with them before<BR>
>> they generate characters and talk to them about what sort of characters<BR>
they<BR>
>> want to play.<BR>
><BR>
>Thanks, Chris. That's good advice. We're not quite used to that<BR>
>approach.<BR>
<BR>
Cool. I hope that advice helps. It usually works for me and my group.<BR>
<BR>
>I spoke with them, and they are just overwhelmed with the options and<BR>
>lack of a good grasp of possibilities to make such decisions. I've<BR>
>been attempting to analyze their gaming styles and goals somewhat, to<BR>
>tailor a scenario to better fit their drives, and make a few<BR>
>decisions at first for them, presenting their options in-game during<BR>
>the first session. "So you want to accept the Scout's offer to<BR>
>explore strange new worlds, or join the chick in the fight against<BR>
>the Zhodani oppressors?" Or whatever.<BR>
<BR>
The obvious advice is to give them a good grasp of the possibilities.<BR>
Handouts, as I mentioned above, will likely prove useful. There *are* a lot<BR>
of possibilities, but you can narrow them down quite a bit by carefully<BR>
choosing or designing adventures.<BR>
<BR>
>One of the players loves political intrigue, but the rest don't<BR>
>really get off on it. Another really enjoys psionics/magic, and<BR>
>having powers as an advantage over others. Yet another wants good<BR>
>roleplay ops. All of them enjoy the occasional fight scene, and<BR>
>rolling the dice.<BR>
<BR>
You should be alright then, the players themselves seem pretty well balanced<BR>
between several playing styles... and they all enjoy the occasional fight<BR>
and rolling the dice. :)<BR>
<BR>
>> Finally, they may be used to games in which there is some sort of balance<BR>
>> inherent in the system. Perhaps you could pregenerate some balanced<BR>
>> characters who are intended to work together. Modern and futuristic games<BR>
>> can be spoiled by a lack of "screen time" given to player characters<BR>
(which<BR>
>> frequently happens if the skills of the characters overlap too much).<BR>
><BR>
>Good point. I will bear that in mind.<BR>
<BR>
Yep. The amount of "stuff" that player characters get to do is very<BR>
important (and this is one of the biggest failings with respect to modern<BR>
and sci-fi games). Some systems get around this, unfortunately, Traveller in<BR>
all of its incarnations doesn't. AD&D, WoD and Cyberpunk all have "classes",<BR>
which although rather restrictive are useful in giving the player characters<BR>
screen time.<BR>
<BR>
As a player, nothing is worse than feeling like a 5th wheel. As a GM,<BR>
nothing is worse than a player who is bored because he or she feels like a<BR>
5th wheel. Two things which I've found useful: give some sort of award<BR>
(experience points or "brownie points" which can be used to add or subtract<BR>
from a die roll) for good roleplaying and good ideas. These awards help to<BR>
alleviate the boredom that individual players may feel when they're not<BR>
adding anything concrete to the group's performance (by hacking computers,<BR>
piloting starships, or shooting at the bad guys). "Dramatists" go for the<BR>
"good roleplaying" award, and "Gamists" go for the good idea award.<BR>
<BR>
Seems to work for me.<BR>
<BR>
>> If you can give me more information about you and your group, I can<BR>
probably<BR>
>> help you find a remedy, or point you toward useful articles. Good luck.<BR>
:)<BR>
><BR>
>Any aid you can give me that teaches me to be a better GM for Sci-Fi<BR>
>and for Traveller specifically would be greatly appreciated.<BR>
<BR>
Okay. As far as articles on running Traveller go, I don't think you can do<BR>
better than Andy Slack. He wrote a number of amazing articles for White<BR>
Dwarf. Go to http://www.halfwaystation.freeserve.co.uk/ . This is Halfway<BR>
Station, Andy's site. Hit the button on the left that says "Green<BR>
(Articles)". Then go to Classic Traveller. WD24 - "Backdrop of Stars" is<BR>
simply the single best aid to running Traveller I have ever read. It<BR>
accurately defines a number of problems that Traveller GMs face, but may not<BR>
even realize. WD36, WD37, WD38 and WD39 make up Andy's "Introduction to<BR>
Traveller", and this is also useful for GMs, and may be useful to your<BR>
players.<BR>
<BR>
I don't think that you'll be disappointed.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2295<BR>
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Traveller-digest      Tuesday, April 11 2000      Volume 1999 : Number 2296<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Proposal for TL debate<BR>
Proposal for TL debate<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2293<BR>
Re: Smart weapons<BR>
Re: Smart weapons<BR>
re: My man Norris<BR>
re: FFS2 - UK Games Outlets<BR>
Re: Peter's view of Traveller<BR>
re: Planet Three Software<BR>
Re: Peter's view of Traveller<BR>
Re: Running A Sci-Fi Campaign<BR>
RE: Peter's view of Traveller<BR>
Re: Smart weapons<BR>
RE: Smart weapons<BR>
Re: Peter's View of Traveller <BR>
Looking for Spreadsheet or Program<BR>
Re: Scale in Space<BR>
Re: WANTED: GT Size Specs for Common Small Ships<BR>
GT-Q: "I used to be filthy rich, ..."<BR>
Re: Running A Sci-Fi Campaign<BR>
RE: Smart weapons<BR>
Re: Basic Economics (was Re: Astronomy in the 57th Century)<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 08:45:52 +1000<BR>
From: "Katharine Whitchurch" <katts@globalfreeway.com.au><BR>
Subject: Proposal for TL debate<BR>
<BR>
One solution for the TL debate is to do for TLs what the Regency soucebook<BR>
did for Population codes - give a secondary TL in the Trade column which<BR>
would supplement the existing TL.<BR>
<BR>
I'll use Heya as an example.<BR>
<BR>
Heya (Regina 2402) B687745-5 Ag Ri 734 becomes<BR>
<BR>
Heya (Regina 2402) B685545-5 Ag Ri 9%2 734<BR>
<BR>
The "9%2" means that whilst 80% of the economy is at TL5, 20% is at TL9. A<BR>
note would be attached to the world that states "Although Heya is<BR>
predominantly a TL5 society, a thriving TL9 agricultural export sector<BR>
exists".<BR>
<BR>
This means the PCs are out of luck if they want their TL9 laser carbines<BR>
repaired, but that this world could be a good place to sell TL9 grav combine<BR>
harvesters.<BR>
<BR>
Economic calculations would treat this world as having 140 000 TL9 citizens,<BR>
and 560 000 TL5 citizens.<BR>
<BR>
A real world example would be somewhere like India, which is mostly TL4-5,<BR>
but with a small TL7-8 sector.<BR>
<BR>
Ian Whitchurch<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 08:55:37 +1000<BR>
From: "Katharine Whitchurch" <katts@globalfreeway.com.au><BR>
Subject: Proposal for TL debate<BR>
<BR>
One solution for the TL debate is to do for TLs what the Regency soucebook<BR>
did for Population codes - give a secondary TL in the Trade column which<BR>
would supplement the existing TL.<BR>
<BR>
I'll use Heya as an example.<BR>
<BR>
Heya (Regina 2402) B687745-5 Ag Ri 734 becomes<BR>
<BR>
Heya (Regina 2402) B685545-5 Ag Ri 9%2 734<BR>
<BR>
The "9%2" means that whilst 80% of the economy is at TL5, 20% is at TL9. A<BR>
note would be attached to the world that states "Although Heya is<BR>
predominantly a TL5 society, a thriving TL9 agricultural export sector<BR>
exists".<BR>
<BR>
This means the PCs are out of luck if they want their TL9 laser carbines<BR>
repaired, but that this world could be a good place to sell TL9 grav combine<BR>
harvesters.<BR>
<BR>
Economic calculations would treat this world as having 140 000 TL9 citizens,<BR>
and 560 000 TL5 citizens.<BR>
<BR>
Higher tech sectors would usually be involved in the export trade, with most<BR>
of the hard currency earned for the high-tech exports being used to buy the<BR>
imported spare parts and equipment - if my Exploitation Rules are being<BR>
used, the cut of the locals is calculated by using the world's dominant TL,<BR>
not the TL of the export sector.<BR>
<BR>
A real world example would be somewhere like India, which is mostly TL4-5,<BR>
but with a small TL7-8 sector.<BR>
<BR>
Ian Whitchurch<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 18:55:52 EDT<BR>
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2293<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 00-04-11 12:08:28 EDT, you write:<BR>
<BR>
<< PPS Of course this involves me saying 'you retired but have another<BR>
 mission'. It's up there with 'you are in a tavern and you see some people<BR>
 that look friendly'. >><BR>
<BR>
A: I'm afraid you must undertake another mission to repay the firm for that <BR>
air/raft you destroyed.<BR>
<BR>
B: What air/raft?<BR>
<BR>
A: It's here on the property book you signed when you assumed command -- and <BR>
your sucessor reports it missing . . .<BR>
<BR>
B: There wasn't any air/raft on post when I took command . . .<BR>
<BR>
A: Then you shouldn't have signed the property book . . .<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 15:45:51 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Smart weapons<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
>> <BR>
><BR>
>> Of course, once the folks on the street find out whether it's the ring<BR>
>> or wristband or <whatever> that enables firing, they'll just take that<BR>
>> after disarming the officer.<BR>
><BR>
> nah, they'll just start _dis_arming them...from behind, with a machete,<BR>
> if they're that desperate.<BR>
><BR>
> Minds me of a recent newsblurb my wife and I saw about biometric ID<BR>
> systems. They were discussing the latest series of euye scanners, which<BR>
> use iris pattern recgnition, and the newsdroid mentioned how they were<BR>
> impossible to spoof (of course she didn't _use_ the word 'spoof'.)<BR>
><BR>
> Alison and I turned around and simultaneously said 'On a steeek!' ;-)<BR>
><BR>
> (referring of course, to Wesley Snipe's innovative way of getting<BR>
> through such a lock in "Demolition Man")<BR>
<BR>
By the time of the 3I, such measures aren't likely to work, because the<BR>
system will have ways of checking to see if it's a live person the<BR>
eye/hand/whatever is attached to.<BR>
<BR>
Mind you, that merely makes getting around the system *harder*.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 15:44:56 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Smart weapons<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> In message <00409.092752.4s1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>, Leonard<BR>
> Erickson <shadow@krypton.rain.com> writes<BR>
>>The government would *love* a gun that could be jammed that way. In<BR>
>>case of insurrection, turn on the jammer, and send out your troops with<BR>
>>guns that don't have that kind of interlock (or that have different<BR>
>>kind). <BR>
><BR>
> Which government would that be?<BR>
<BR>
*Most* of them. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 00:02:28 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: re: My man Norris<BR>
<BR>
At 12:05 -0400 11/4/00, "Karen and Michael Hughes" <BR>
<kmhughes@dynamite.com.au> wrote:<BR>
>Wah is not canonical cause it's DGP - But one of the last MT journals had a<BR>
>celebrity interview with him. Who wrote that - they are a god. One of the<BR>
>finest RPG magazine efforts around.<BR>
<BR>
Arrival Vengeance is GDW not DGP.<BR>
MT Journal is DGP.<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 00:20:25 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: re: FFS2 - UK Games Outlets<BR>
<BR>
At 18:32 -0400 11/4/00, "Nick Bradbeer" <nickb@ndirect.co.uk> wrote:<BR>
>Does anybody know of any mail order outlets in the UK (or US ones which<BR>
>don't charge 40% postage) which might have it? I've tried leisuregames to no<BR>
>avail.<BR>
<BR>
Try Esdevium directly. Or Hobby Games. They may have some left as the <BR>
UK distributors.<BR>
<BR>
Marquee Models down around Harlow(?) may have a copy as they used to <BR>
give us stock at cons.<BR>
<BR>
>Oh Dom, is there somebody I can mail to see if there's a copy in the BITS<BR>
>collection?<BR>
<BR>
Andy Lilly.          bits@bits.org.uk<BR>
<BR>
There is still a stack of T4 stuff (Especially CORE stuff) including <BR>
two signed hardbacks. Which were both less than 20 last time I <BR>
checked.<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 00:15:42 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Peter's view of Traveller<BR>
<BR>
At 16:17 -0400 11/4/00, "Nick Bradbeer" <nickb@ndirect.co.uk> wrote:<BR>
> >As co-writer, I would like to point out that we forgot to include rules for<BR>
> >grav-pong in ACQ.  I guess that settles *that* argument once and for all :)<BR>
>WHAT!<BR>
>Well, I'm not buying it then.<BR>
<BR>
Find your own game of MagBlast! at Gencon then! ;-) Seriously, if <BR>
you're liking T4 then ACQ is well worth a look...<BR>
<BR>
BTW Best Books and Games in Liverpool (my FLGS) had 2 copies of the <BR>
Classic Reprints left on Saturday, but no GT Starports and Tim <BR>
Collinson had got the last copy... Oh yes, they had five copies of <BR>
MagBlast! in stock at 13.99<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 00:22:25 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: re: Planet Three Software<BR>
<BR>
At 18:32 -0400 11/4/00, Jeff Zeitlin <jzeitlin@cyburban.com> wrote:<BR>
>It turns out that I will _not_ be able to have a copy of the<BR>
>software in question available _on_ Freelance Traveller; it's<BR>
>just too damn large for my mirror site (sigh).  However, if<BR>
>people send me URLs of where it can be downloaded from, it _will_<BR>
>get appropriate links from Freelance Traveller's Computer<BR>
>Connection.<BR>
<BR>
How big is it? I could put it on the BITS archive.<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 00:24:42 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Peter's view of Traveller<BR>
<BR>
At 18:32 -0400 11/4/00, "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com> wrote:<BR>
>At 06:46 PM 4/11/2000 +0100, you wrote:<BR>
> >>As co-writer, I would like to point out that we forgot to include rules for<BR>
> >>grav-pong in ACQ.  I guess that settles *that* argument once and for all :)<BR>
> ><BR>
> >WHAT!<BR>
> ><BR>
> >Well, I'm not buying it then.<BR>
><BR>
>Fear not, I'm currently writing _101 Anal Retentive Rules_ for BITS.<BR>
<BR>
Doug! That was a BLACK PROJECT!<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 09:44:37 +1000<BR>
From: "Alan Bradley" <alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au><BR>
Subject: Re: Running A Sci-Fi Campaign<BR>
<BR>
Lots of people have written lots of intelligent stuff on this thread.  Here<BR>
is something not so intelligent:<BR>
<BR>
Bug hunts are fun.  Bug hunts are easy.  Everyone understands Bug hunts. <BR>
Most people like playing them occasionally.<BR>
<BR>
A good bug hunt scenario is one where the players scream as their<BR>
characters get eaten...<BR>
<BR>
Alan Bradley<BR>
alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 20:41:12 -0400<BR>
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net><BR>
Subject: RE: Peter's view of Traveller<BR>
<BR>
Doug said:<BR>
<BR>
>>Fear not, I'm currently writing _101 Anal Retentive Rules_ for BITS.<BR>
<BR>
Dom Mooney said:<BR>
<BR>
>Doug! That was a BLACK PROJECT!<BR>
<BR>
Yeah, but will _101 Anal Retentive Rules_ be *canon*?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 17:50:52 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Smart weapons<BR>
<BR>
>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
<BR>
>Actually, it seems cops are (somewhat) in *favor* of them. They<BR>
<BR>
>*know* how many officers get shot with their own weapon after <BR>
>it is taken away from them during a fight.<BR>
><BR>
>Of course, once the folks on the street find out whether it's <BR>
>the ring or wristband or <whatever> that enables firing, <BR>
>they'll just take that after disarming the officer. But it <BR>
>*will* make it harder to shoot the officer *during* the initial<BR>
<BR>
>struggle.<BR>
<BR>
Why make it a ring or wristband or whatever?  Why not make it an<BR>
implant or something swallowed?  If it's swallowed, it will pass<BR>
out of the body regularly for maintenance and can be passed to<BR>
another officer.  If it's an implant, it could be anywhere -- in<BR>
a tooth, in the mastoid sinus, whereever.  <BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.<BR>
http://im.yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 21:00:30 -0400<BR>
From: "John Toth" <jrtoth@bbtel.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Smart weapons<BR>
<BR>
Pardon me if this has been covered before, I have just Joined the List and I<BR>
am looking for information.<BR>
<BR>
Are there any Good Programs or Spreadsheets that Create Weapons in GURPS?<BR>
<BR>
I am just starting into GURPS Traveller and I wish to convert some older<BR>
Trav weapons to the GURPS style of information.<BR>
<BR>
Thanks,<BR>
John T<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 21:06:37 -0400<BR>
From: "Thom Harris" <thomharr@mediaone.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Peter's View of Traveller <BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message ----- <BR>
From: "Peter Newman" <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2000 1:31 PM<BR>
Subject: Re: Peter's View of Traveller <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> That's not obsessive compulsive, Obsessive compulsive<BR>
> would be to annotate 'The Traveller Bibliography'<BR>
> with a numerical listing, in order, the canonicity of each<BR>
> and every product. Obsessive compulsion would include<BR>
> an attempt to collect a copy of each printing (not<BR>
> version) of every Traveller book and do a careful page <BR>
> by page comparison of them checking for discrepancies.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
And your point is??????<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 21:55:34 -0400<BR>
From: "John Toth" <jrtoth@bbtel.com><BR>
Subject: Looking for Spreadsheet or Program<BR>
<BR>
Pardon me if this has been covered before, I have just Joined the List and I<BR>
am looking for information.<BR>
<BR>
Are there any Good Programs or Spreadsheets that Create Weapons in GURPS?<BR>
<BR>
I am just starting into GURPS Traveller and I wish to convert some older<BR>
Trav weapons to the GURPS style of information.<BR>
<BR>
Thanks,<BR>
John T<BR>
<BR>
PS Yes, I messed up on the Topic the First time...   Sorry<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 18:28:52 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Scale in Space<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>>The only possible "dodges" are using smaller but higher temperature<BR>
>>radiators. It takes extra power, and thus requires you to get rid of<BR>
>>*more* waste heat to get rid of heat at a temp above the one you are<BR>
>>trying to keep something at. That's why the "coils" on a refrigerator<BR>
>>are so warm *and* why they take so much power.<BR>
>><BR>
>>These will be even *more* detectable, but you can try to aim them in a<BR>
>>direction where you hope there aren't any sensors aimed at you. If you<BR>
>>are wrong about that, you'll find out the hard way.<BR>
>><BR>
> Okay, what about a really large sheet of mylar or some such material, not<BR>
> as big as a lightsail, but big.  Could you hide behind that?  Lets assume<BR>
> it is a really good reflector of IR and it is tethered to your ship so it<BR>
> doesn't blow away from radiation pressure.  Would multiple sheets help?<BR>
> (I'm just trying to hide from IR sensors and force the bad guys to go <BR>
> active.)<BR>
<BR>
Well, it'll still radiate at its *own* temp. That's one of the reasons<BR>
IR images are so weird. Everything is "glowing".<BR>
<BR>
So ideally, you need to keep it at 3 K... And *nothing* is all that<BR>
flexible at that sort of temp. But yeah, it might work. Just hope they<BR>
don't have any sensors placed where they can "see around" the screen.<BR>
<BR>
One dodge that I've proposed for sufficiently small ships (works well<BR>
for fighters) is to enclose them in an opaque "bubble" big enough that<BR>
the energy per unit area radiated is consistent with a small asteroid<BR>
heated by the sun. If you check *really* carefully, it'll be a few<BR>
degrees off, but there are lots of reasons a natural body might be that<BR>
way.<BR>
<BR>
Of course, if this is a well surveyed system, they might wonder why<BR>
this asteroid isn't in the databank. :-)<BR>
<BR>
Governments will have these fake asteroids on the charts, and swap out<BR>
the ships by having a ship of the same type fly by and then when<BR>
(hopefully) no one is paying attention, swap places with the "on<BR>
station" ship.<BR>
<BR>
>>It also makes impact missiles essentially worthless. Thus the idea of<BR>
>>the missile warheads being "bomb-pumped" x-ray lasers. The missiles<BR>
>>dash in so they can aim better than the ship that fired them, but try<BR>
>>to stay outside the "certain kill" range for the anti-missile lasers of<BR>
>>the target.<BR>
><BR>
> By the way, a few years back, I read a biography of Tellur.  The biographer<BR>
> talked about Tellur's support for Star Wars and the X-ray laser.  According<BR>
> to him, the last few nuclear tests were actually tests of bomb-pumped x-ray<BR>
> lasers, just to see if in fact the expected "beam" was produced.  This guy<BR>
> says that no amplification of X-rays was observed, which was a major<BR>
> disapointment for all parties.  Of course, people can write anything in a<BR>
> book to support their pre-conceived notions.  I got the distinct impression<BR>
> the biographer didn't like Tellur or nuclear scientists.  I'm sorry I don't<BR>
> remember the biographer's name and the book title, but I'll see if I can<BR>
> find it at the library again.<BR>
<BR>
Well, the (hoped for) mechanism of "bomb-pumped" x-ray lasers is rather<BR>
like that of the old ruby lasers. You hit the rod with a bunch of<BR>
energy some of which creates the population inversion needed by a<BR>
laser. <BR>
<BR>
It's still *possible* that such things can be built. We just don't know<BR>
how yet.<BR>
<BR>
> By the way, it's really great to discuss these Traveller questions with<BR>
> other people.  I've been reffing Traveller for about 21 years, and in all<BR>
> that time, I have never met anyone who even cared how things worked in the<BR>
> game.  Setting up scientific puzzles is a total waste of time, because I<BR>
> usually have to lead the players by the hand, since for all they know,<BR>
> "Hydrogen is a rare element"  Bob Felton, the GM in KODT.<BR>
<BR>
<wince><BR>
<BR>
I've been there. I've also spent *hours* trying to figure out the<BR>
"alien numbers" that a GM thought would be "obvious" to us...<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 22:19:33 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
From: Dalton Spence <dalton.spence@hwcn.org><BR>
Subject: Re: WANTED: GT Size Specs for Common Small Ships<BR>
<BR>
On Sun, 09 Apr 2000 12:24:35 +0100, Postmark Design Bureau<BR>
<postmark.design@btinternet.com> wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> I can't believe that no one replied to this...<BR>
<BR>
Actually, someone did (you may have missed it since it was under<BR>
"Ship sizes and shapes"), but I'm very grateful for your help. Thank<BR>
you.<BR>
<BR>
> I can't find all the values but here are those that I have.<BR>
<BR>
This leaves me in a bit of a quandry: the figures in your table<BR>
don't match the very precise list I got from Ian Whitchurch. Now I<BR>
have to decide whether to go with you or his "Famile Spofulam Yards<BR>
versions." (One doesn't want to offend Ditzi, does one?) On one hand<BR>
his list includes the general hull shape, while on the other hand<BR>
your widths seem to include wingspan for those ships that have wings<BR>
(notably the fighters, the pinnace, and the subsidised merchant).<BR>
Maybe I can combine the two.<BR>
<BR>
>               len    wid   hgt     vol   disp  source<BR>
<BR>
Straight off the spreadsheet, eh? (Yes, I'm Canadian. ;)) That just<BR>
makes it easier to import and scale to feet. I know the first three<BR>
stats are in meters, but what units are "vol" and "disp" in and why<BR>
are they different? At least you listed your sources; I don't think<BR>
Ian ever did. <hint, hint> :)<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
              @==================================================@<BR>
              | Dalton S. Spence, B.Sc. <dalton.spence@hwcn.org> |<BR>
              | Home Page: http://www.hwcn.org/~ag775/home.html  |<BR>
              |      Family Motto: Virtute Acquiritur Honos      |<BR>
              |    "Trade is the lifeblood of the Imperium."     |<BR>
              |   Cleon I, First Emperor of the Third Imperium   |<BR>
              |  Isaac Asimov is like a god to Chicago for the   |<BR>
              |               insane drug. FNORD!                |<BR>
              @==================================================@<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 22:19:32 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
From: Dalton Spence <dalton.spence@hwcn.org><BR>
Subject: GT-Q: "I used to be filthy rich, ..."<BR>
<BR>
"... but all I've got left is this lousy starship!"<BR>
<BR>
I want to create a GT character who was the favorite son of a *very*<BR>
wealthy family that gave him a Vanderbilt-class Yacht outright as a<BR>
birthday present, but later Disowned him when he married "beneath<BR>
himself." While the family was able to reclaim most of his income<BR>
producing assets, they were unable to touch the yacht itself or some<BR>
small (by their standards) cash reserves. Fortunately his new bride<BR>
used to be his "chauffeur" and has a valid Limited Master's licence.<BR>
Together they plan to recruit the wife's brother as their engineer<BR>
and turn the ship into an express cargo transport.<BR>
<BR>
1.) According to GT:FT p.101 unless a character is filthy rich, the<BR>
    maximum equity he can hold in his ship is MCr4.8 (which is much<BR>
    less than a Vandy's MCr44.1 price tag), but Temporary Wealth<BR>
    only goes up to the Wealthy level (which is exceeded by the Ship<BR>
    Owners advantage anyway). According to CI p.77, "A starting<BR>
    character who has just been Disowned has the starting wealth of<BR>
    his old Wealth level and the income of his new Wealth level."<BR>
    Does the Disowned disadvantage allow you to buy higher levels of<BR>
    Wealth and treat them as Temporary? What if you want an income<BR>
    class *other* than Average?<BR>
<BR>
2.) To turn the yacht into a cargo vessel they want to rip out ten<BR>
    staterooms replacing them with 4 Life Support modules, thereby<BR>
    keeping life support and power slices the same and increasing<BR>
    the cargo area by 38 spaces. The owner and his wife will share<BR>
    the master suite, the lounge will be kept intact for use by any<BR>
    crew in the eight new bunks (at least three mechanics/engineers<BR>
    will be needed for routine daily maintenance), and the remaining<BR>
    stateroom will be used by the engineer/brother-in-law. How much<BR>
    time and money would be spent on this "disimprovement?" What is<BR>
    the salvage value could he get on the stripped luxury fittings?<BR>
<BR>
I owe somebody 3 NPCs, so any help with this would be appreciated.<BR>
<BR>
(P.S.: I may hold off on the second part, since the scenario these<BR>
NPCs are wanted for might be better served if the ship first ran as<BR>
a competing passenger liner that either was trying to get the PCs<BR>
into trouble or help them out of it.)<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
              @==================================================@<BR>
              | Dalton S. Spence, B.Sc. <dalton.spence@hwcn.org> |<BR>
              | Home Page: http://www.hwcn.org/~ag775/home.html  |<BR>
              |      Family Motto: Virtute Acquiritur Honos      |<BR>
              |    "Trade is the lifeblood of the Imperium."     |<BR>
              |   Cleon I, First Emperor of the Third Imperium   |<BR>
              |  The sleeping couch removes the slack-producing  |<BR>
              |                   boat. FNORD!                   |<BR>
              @==================================================@<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 21:23:46 -0500<BR>
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Running A Sci-Fi Campaign<BR>
<BR>
Jason Kemp wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
<<snip>><BR>
> <BR>
> > What style of roleplaying do your characters enjoy? Are they "smash and<BR>
> > grab" adventurers who like to beat down the bad guys and make off with loot?<BR>
> > If so, you might consider providing an outlet for their tendencies<BR>
> > (mercenary tickets, small unit commando raids, whatever). If they like<BR>
> > diplomacy and intrigue, either within our outside the group, you can work<BR>
> > this into a sci-fi campaign. In every Traveller campaign I've run, I've<BR>
> > started by asking the players what kind of adventures they want to perform,<BR>
> > or what kind of flavor they're looking for. When I ran TNE, for example, I<BR>
> > gave them the choice between the Regency and Reformation Coalition. When I<BR>
> > ran T4 recently, I asked them upfront what kind of campaign I wanted.<BR>
> > Communicating with your players can be very important.<BR>
> <BR>
> I spoke with them, and they are just overwhelmed with the options and<BR>
> lack of a good grasp of possibilities to make such decisions. I've<BR>
> been attempting to analyze their gaming styles and goals somewhat, to<BR>
> tailor a scenario to better fit their drives, and make a few<BR>
> decisions at first for them, presenting their options in-game during<BR>
> the first session. "So you want to accept the Scout's offer to<BR>
> explore strange new worlds, or join the chick in the fight against<BR>
> the Zhodani oppressors?" Or whatever.<BR>
> <BR>
> One of the players loves political intrigue, but the rest don't<BR>
> really get off on it. Another really enjoys psionics/magic, and<BR>
> having powers as an advantage over others. Yet another wants good<BR>
> roleplay ops. All of them enjoy the occasional fight scene, and<BR>
> rolling the dice.<BR>
<BR>
All right, here's a possible campaign theme:<BR>
<BR>
The PCs are a private troubleshooting team, either on a for-hire basis<BR>
or in the employ of a specific noble or megacorp.  (A noble would<BR>
probably work better for such a group, since individual nobles may have<BR>
honor, while corporations cannot [*].)<BR>
<BR>
One PC, while not necessarily the team leader, serves as the primary<BR>
interface between the team and its patron(s).  The player who enjoys<BR>
political intrigue would work well here.<BR>
<BR>
Another PC is a psi talent of some sort.  How widely known this is<BR>
depends on the preferences of the player, but the rest of the team would<BR>
likely know _something_.  The other PCs would, if they know of the psi's<BR>
abilities, probably work to conceal him/her from negative repercussions,<BR>
for either utilitarian or friendship reasons.<BR>
<BR>
The other characters would have a mix of skills, to allow maximum<BR>
flexibility within the limit of the team size.<BR>
<BR>
You can, if you wish, crib missions from the Remo Williams ( a.k.a. "The<BR>
Destroyer") series of books, James Bond books and movies, "MacGyver",<BR>
"The A-Team", "Mission: Impossible", and/or "Charlie's Angels",<BR>
depending on the abilities and tastes of your players, and their<BR>
knowledge of the primary sources.  In other words, if, for instance,<BR>
none of the players have read any "Destroyer" books, those books can<BR>
serve as a useful source.<BR>
<BR>
One thing to keep in mind in such a campaign (or in _any_ campaign) is<BR>
that you need to provide situations that highlight the abilities of<BR>
every player/PC.  Not every PC needs the limelight _every_ mission, but<BR>
every PC deserves the limelight _sometimes_.<BR>
<BR>
The missions also need to be tailored such that any abilities not found<BR>
within the group either are not needed on the mission, or are available<BR>
via NPCs, devices, or other means.  I'd mix-and-match missions, so that<BR>
some missions had valuable NPCs, others had special toys, and still<BR>
others (at least half of the total) didn't require other.<BR>
<BR>
[*]:  This is not meant as an attack on corporations; I simply believe<BR>
that honor is a virtue that only individuals can possess.  Individuals<BR>
who either own or work for corporations can have honor; corporations<BR>
can't.<BR>
<BR>
<<snip>><BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 22:26:11 -0400<BR>
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net><BR>
Subject: RE: Smart weapons<BR>
<BR>
John Toth said:<BR>
<BR>
>Pardon me if this has been covered before, I have just Joined the List and<BR>
I<BR>
>am looking for information.<BR>
<BR>
Hey John. I haven't seen it covered myself, and you're in luck, since I just<BR>
went looking myself last night. Before I forget, welcome to the list!<BR>
<BR>
>Are there any Good Programs or Spreadsheets that Create Weapons in GURPS?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
"GURPS Vehicle Designer" is a well written program though, and is useful for<BR>
vehicle design. It doesn't support hand weapons, but you should be able to<BR>
design hand weapons with it (you'll just have to do the things that are<BR>
specific to hand weapons... by hand:) ).<BR>
<BR>
There's also a Java-script energy weapon spreadsheet. I haven't used it yet,<BR>
so I can't say much about it.<BR>
<BR>
You can find both at the following site:<BR>
<BR>
http://sjgames.com/general/gm-aids.html<BR>
<BR>
>I am just starting into GURPS Traveller and I wish to convert some older<BR>
>Trav weapons to the GURPS style of information.<BR>
<BR>
Well, I hope that the above helps somewhat. In addition, David Pulver has<BR>
some additions to the weapons rules in Vehicles, but I can't find them at<BR>
this moment. It allows designers to create various sorts of weapons (such as<BR>
grenades and interchangeable ammo) that aren't support by the main book. A<BR>
short search should turn these pages up.<BR>
<BR>
Good luck!<BR>
<BR>
PS: You should consider posting your finished weapons to the list. I know<BR>
I'd like to see 'em.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 19:33:34 -0700<BR>
From: "James W. Lindsay" <jlindsay@home.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Basic Economics (was Re: Astronomy in the 57th Century)<BR>
<BR>
On Tue, 11 Apr 2000 02:19:08 -0800, Peter Newman wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> James W. Lindsay" <jlindsay@home.com> wrote<BR>
> <BR>
> > > If you read a sentence which said "Standard US cars are manufactured<BR>
> > > by GM, Ford and Chrysler." wouldn't you interpret this statement<BR>
> > > as explicitly excluding other manufacturer's cars from being <BR>
> > > standard?<BR>
> <BR>
> > No, I certainly would not.<BR>
> <BR>
> > Thank you so very much for providing an example of my earlier point--<BR>
> > "writers sometimes make mistakes".  In this case, that writer is *you*.<BR>
> > You made a mistake, Peter.  Saturns are also 'standard US cars'-- being a<BR>
> > domestic product and a separate subsidiary from General Motors (not like<BR>
> > Pontiac, Oldsmobile, etc.).  Further more, Chrysler no longer makes cars<BR>
> > per se-- Daimler-Chrysler does.  That makes two mistakes.<BR>
> <BR>
> I did not claim that the statement "Standard US cars are manufactured<BR>
> by GM, Ford and Chrysler." was _correct_ I only suggested that<BR>
> it was _unambiguous_.<BR>
<BR>
And you suggested wrongly, since the errors I pointed out already act to<BR>
prove the statement wrong.  I can't answer trick questions.  I therefore<BR>
used my brain and realized that you probably made an error in writing that<BR>
statement.  No big deal-- happens all the time.<BR>
<BR>
IOW, your sentence conflicted with what I know to be factual.  Therefore, I<BR>
wouldn't interpret it to mean what you say in means ("...as explicitly<BR>
excluding other manufacturer's cars from being standard?").  That was *my*<BR>
point.<BR>
<BR>
> Nor did I claim that said sentence was <BR>
> written in 2000, it may have been written before Daimler-Chysler<BR>
> was formed, or even before Saturn was formed.<BR>
<BR>
Oh, puhleeze...<BR>
<BR>
> Since MT was <BR>
> printed in 1987 and my example sentence was a mere paraphrase<BR>
> of MT text the logical conclusion would be that the example<BR>
> paraphrase was also a 1987 statement.<BR>
<BR>
How can we possibly have a debate if you don't include those facts which<BR>
you obviously deem important to your POV?<BR>
<BR>
> Nor did it define standard. <BR>
<BR>
Since you didn't, I had to improvise.  All I had to go with was your<BR>
original statement.  You used the term "are", not "are currently".  You did<BR>
not mention when this statement took place, and now you say that it *may*<BR>
have taken place prior to the foundation of the Saturn car company.  And<BR>
now you are saying that you intended to mirror a question posed in MT, yet<BR>
you did not state that specifically.<BR>
<BR>
I can either rebut your statement filling in the missing pieces on my own,<BR>
or answer everything you say with "I'm sorry, but I cannot reply due to<BR>
insufficient data."  Your choice, but I'm opting out of this thread...<BR>
<BR>
> > Peter Newman would interpret *your* sentence as gospel, without even<BR>
> > considering the obvious glaring error(s) that I found.  The rest of us,<BR>
> > OTOH, are gifted with a little more mental leeway, and would understand<BR>
> > that what you *meant* to say was that "all domestic cars made in the USA<BR>
> > are produced by GM, Ford, Daimler-Chrysler, and Saturn".<BR>
> <BR>
> Why are you being so rude and presumptuous.<BR>
<BR>
Simple.  Your whole argument revolves around what you seem to think I can<BR>
and cannot do as a Traveller referee.  I tend to take offense when someone<BR>
tells me how to run my game-- with comments like the following:<BR>
<BR>
} The cargo acquisition rules do not allow for this situation.<BR>
} Therefore the Referee is not free to do this.<BR>
<BR>
Next time you want to make a comment like that, try adding a few "IMHO"s or<BR>
"YMMV"s.<BR>
<BR>
> > The rules you are looking for, Peter, can be found in a host of excellent<BR>
> > Avalon Hill games.  <BR>
> <BR>
> > Wargames are *much* more reliant on accurate rules than<BR>
> > roleplaying games.  Compare the rulebooks for Traveller and Third Reich to<BR>
> > see the difference.  The former includes statements like "referees are free<BR>
> > to disregard the rules" or "if there is a conflict with the rules, the<BR>
> > referee has the final say".  The latter includes precise, specific rules<BR>
> > regarding what can and cannot be done.<BR>
> <BR>
> As did some role playing games.<BR>
<BR>
Never seen one (a draconian RPG rule set, that is).  Hell, I've even seen<BR>
the opposite-- wargames that include suggestions like "roll a die to solve<BR>
the current dispute and come up with your own rules after the game to<BR>
handle future similar situations".<BR>
<BR>
> Nor did MT rules did not include the statement that "referees<BR>
> are free to disregard the rules" However as I have just<BR>
> noticed by checking the designers notes Joe Fugate stated that<BR>
> this sentiment was intended.<BR>
<BR>
It makes no difference that MT mentions this or not.  We are all<BR>
intelligent RPGers here, and the general consensus is that we can do<BR>
anything we damn well feel like doing with any RPG ruleset.  Who's going to<BR>
stop us?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
James W. Lindsay             Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada<BR>
Website: http://members.home.net/jlindsay          ICQ: #7521644<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
Microsoft - We put the "backwards" into backwards compatibility.<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
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Traveller-digest     Wednesday, April 12 2000     Volume 1999 : Number 2297<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
(no subject)<BR>
Re: GT-Q: "I used to be filthy rich, ..."<BR>
Re: GT Tech-Q : Sharing Ship Module Power Slices<BR>
Re: Wars within the Imperium<BR>
Re: Far Frontiers Sector Data?<BR>
TML Landgrab: Jenghe/REGINA<BR>
Re: Loeskalth and Far Frontiers Sector Data?<BR>
Re: Running A Sci-Fi Campaign<BR>
Re: Smart weapons<BR>
Re: Boardgames (was Re:Basic Economics) <BR>
Re: An alternate TL definition (heresy warning)<BR>
Re: Boardgames (was Re:Basic Economics) <BR>
Re: Peter Newman's Traveller Universe - evidence from the books<BR>
Re: 101 Anal Retentive Rules<BR>
TML Archives<BR>
Re: Running A Sci-Fi Campaign<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 12:44:28 +1000<BR>
From: Phill Webb <pwebb@yarranet.net.au><BR>
Subject: (no subject)<BR>
<BR>
unsubscribe traveller-digest<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 21:46:38 -0500<BR>
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: Re: GT-Q: "I used to be filthy rich, ..."<BR>
<BR>
Dalton Spence wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> "... but all I've got left is this lousy starship!"<BR>
> <BR>
> I want to create a GT character who was the favorite son of a *very*<BR>
> wealthy family that gave him a Vanderbilt-class Yacht outright as a<BR>
> birthday present, but later Disowned him when he married "beneath<BR>
> himself." While the family was able to reclaim most of his income<BR>
> producing assets, they were unable to touch the yacht itself or some<BR>
> small (by their standards) cash reserves. Fortunately his new bride<BR>
> used to be his "chauffeur" and has a valid Limited Master's licence.<BR>
> Together they plan to recruit the wife's brother as their engineer<BR>
> and turn the ship into an express cargo transport.<BR>
> <BR>
> 1.) According to GT:FT p.101 unless a character is filthy rich, the<BR>
>     maximum equity he can hold in his ship is MCr4.8 (which is much<BR>
>     less than a Vandy's MCr44.1 price tag), but Temporary Wealth<BR>
>     only goes up to the Wealthy level (which is exceeded by the Ship<BR>
>     Owners advantage anyway). According to CI p.77, "A starting<BR>
>     character who has just been Disowned has the starting wealth of<BR>
>     his old Wealth level and the income of his new Wealth level."<BR>
>     Does the Disowned disadvantage allow you to buy higher levels of<BR>
>     Wealth and treat them as Temporary? What if you want an income<BR>
>     class *other* than Average?<BR>
 <BR>
Try this one out for size:<BR>
<BR>
The PC has the ship as a Ship Patron (see GT 1st edition pgs. 84-85),<BR>
with an additional 5-point Advantage: Cannot be Revoked.  That way, the<BR>
PC can't _sell_ the ship (title reverts to the family), but the PC has<BR>
lifetime use of the ship.<BR>
<BR>
The PC has use of the ship, for a total of 28 points (assuming that the<BR>
PC can maintain at least Status 3 after being Disowned).<BR>
> <BR>
> 2.) To turn the yacht into a cargo vessel they want to rip out ten<BR>
>     staterooms replacing them with 4 Life Support modules, thereby<BR>
>     keeping life support and power slices the same and increasing<BR>
>     the cargo area by 38 spaces. The owner and his wife will share<BR>
>     the master suite, the lounge will be kept intact for use by any<BR>
>     crew in the eight new bunks (at least three mechanics/engineers<BR>
>     will be needed for routine daily maintenance), and the remaining<BR>
>     stateroom will be used by the engineer/brother-in-law. How much<BR>
>     time and money would be spent on this "disimprovement?" What is<BR>
>     the salvage value could he get on the stripped luxury fittings?<BR>
<BR>
IMHO, you're better off converting the Spacedock and/or Vehicle Bay to<BR>
cargo space, and keeping the Staterooms for passenger traffic.  While<BR>
I'm not conversant with GT ship design, I do know that, in other design<BR>
sequences (such as FF&S2 for T4), cargo spaces mass more than<BR>
staterooms, per unit of volume.  Thus, replacing staterooms with cargo<BR>
space will degrade Acceleration to some degree.<BR>
<BR>
If you go with the passenger liner idea, keep the luxury fittings.  They<BR>
may help attract a better class of passenger, with higher ticket prices.<BR>
<BR>
<<snip>><BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 23:49:53 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
From: Dalton Spence <dalton.spence@hwcn.org><BR>
Subject: Re: GT Tech-Q : Sharing Ship Module Power Slices<BR>
<BR>
On Mon, 10 Apr 2000 19:52:12 +1000, "Katharine Whitchurch"<BR>
<katts@globalfreeway.com.au> wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Meson screens ? Merchant ships ? Are you *sure* you dont work at Famile<BR>
> Spofulam ?<BR>
<BR>
No, but if there are any job openings... <alright, alright I'll take my<BR>
meds!><BR>
 <BR>
> BTW I am doing some re-thinking on the issue of exactly how brutally you<BR>
> should optimise the power systems vis a vis the amount of power you need to<BR>
> stay in jumpspace, plus thelife support, plus one gee of gravity plates. The<BR>
> risk is power fluctuation within jumpspace - it could be a really, really<BR>
> bad thing to dip under minimum power there. I think a 10% margin of safety<BR>
> is a good idea ... now, to sell Ditzie on the idea ...<BR>
<BR>
How about a UPS and a surge protecter? You can get some really good ones<BR>
at Radio Shack.<BR>
 <BR>
> <good stuff snipped><BR>
> <BR>
> Whilst I completely agree with all this, unfortunately it goes 100% against<BR>
> the grain of the modules system as it was written (me, I'd have used Energy<BR>
> Points and included power modules seperately, like High Guard did. But the<BR>
> people that wrote it didnt). The idea was to have a simple system, and that<BR>
> means power slices. I dont think anyone is going to turn Loren around under<BR>
> this one.<BR>
<BR>
Well, non-standard ships *are* permitted. The modular system should be<BR>
considered a starting point to quickly get all the components in place,<BR>
not an ultimate end system. If you want to optimize the design later, I<BR>
can break up the modules into their seperate Vehicle components and tweak<BR>
it from there.<BR>
 <BR>
> With weapons the problem you are hitting is that the weapons in Gurps:Trav<BR>
> are not the most brutally optimised weapons that can be built under Gurps<BR>
> design system - they are Gurps-legal equivalent of systems built under<BR>
> Traveller.<BR>
<BR>
Are you saying the superdense bay weapon systems are GURPS standard, or<BR>
Traveller standard?  My point was that according the GURPS rules, the bay<BR>
weapons should be smaller and less powerful. It was like the size of the<BR>
bay was completely forgotten when they were designed. To fit properly<BR>
neither weapon should have been more than 4,000 MJ. Unfortunately<BR>
according to the Meson Technology entry on GT p.108, even at TL12 a meson<BR>
gun less than 10,000 MJ can't even *exist*.<BR>
 <BR>
<snip> <BR>
> To conclude, the basic problem with gearheading in Gurps Trav is that if you<BR>
> succeed too well, it may turn into something that isnt Trav any more ...<BR>
<BR>
Perhaps, but how would I know the difference? So far, GURPS and this list<BR>
are my only windows on Traveller. Best I can do is take notice of the<BR>
technical constraints in GT Chapter Four and limit my designs accordingly.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
              @==================================================@<BR>
              | Dalton S. Spence, B.Sc. <dalton.spence@hwcn.org> |<BR>
              | Home Page: http://www.hwcn.org/~ag775/home.html  |<BR>
              |      Family Motto: Virtute Acquiritur Honos      |<BR>
              |    "Trade is the lifeblood of the Imperium."     |<BR>
              |   Cleon I, First Emperor of the Third Imperium   |<BR>
              |   The hemisphere from Chicago will go to Alpha   |<BR>
              |                 Centauri. FNORD!                 |<BR>
              @==================================================@<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 20:10:19 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Wars within the Imperium<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> And back off topic: About the Falklands-Malvinas, in the end I have to say<BR>
> that despite the fact that the British got very lucky and could have<BR>
> suffered a great deal more for a minor territorial objective (bet they're<BR>
> happy the French held up that last shipment of Exocets), they did hasten the<BR>
> fall of the Argentinian generals. And that ain't bad...<BR>
<BR>
Well, at the time a good part of the motive on *both* sides may have<BR>
been the possibility of undersea oil deposits on the nearby<BR>
"continental shelf". <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 00:32:29 EDT<BR>
From: GypsyComet@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Far Frontiers Sector Data?<BR>
<BR>
"Sword-Worlder" <swordworlder@yahoo.com> sayeth:<BR>
<BR>
>From: <Qstor@aol.com><BR>
>> I was looking for the whole sector....I'd love to see it on the Web or in<BR>
>> print....If it was in print Id certainly buy it....<BR>
><BR>
>Since the halves have two different authors, and since not even the<BR>
>subsector names jibe between the two, that seems unlikely, at least until<BR>
>the DVD version ;-)<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
 Nobody bothered to tell me Dale had done the coreward half as well, so I did <BR>
it from scratch. I worked from the original Known Space map (the red polity <BR>
lines on starry backdrop map) and the Ares article, since I was writing my <BR>
half as the other was appearing in TC 2-4.<BR>
 <BR>
 In a further twist, Chuck Kallenbach emerged from hibernation shortly after <BR>
the TC articles started, and after bouncing off of Kevin Knight, contacted <BR>
me. Seems he had extensively revised the Vanguard Reach (the sector to <BR>
rimward, originally published by Paranoia Press), and the edge between the <BR>
two sectors no longer matched. We hashed a few ideas back and forth, and I wou<BR>
ld have done a follow up article to bring Far Frontiers up through the <BR>
Rebellion and (maybe) on to the New Era, basing happenings along that border <BR>
on Chuck's stuff. Between a big dose of Real Life on my part, and a sudden <BR>
flood of submissions to TC (so my article was unneeded), that article never <BR>
happened.<BR>
<BR>
 I would be VERY interested in seeing Dale's whole sector. I actually watched <BR>
Swordy walk away with the manuscript in an EBay auction (it got too rich for <BR>
my budget), but didn't connect him with "our" Sword-Worlder until this week.<BR>
<BR>
Jim Kundert<BR>
GypsyComet@aol.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 21:44:28 -0700<BR>
From: red@europa.com<BR>
Subject: TML Landgrab: Jenghe/REGINA<BR>
<BR>
Just doing my duty and reporting my claim (already listed on <BR>
Downport) on Jenghe/REGINA.<BR>
<BR>
I am working on the site at http:/www.europa.com/~raller  (at least <BR>
for the time being).  I hope to have at least the canon material (and <BR>
more if I can) up before heading North for Norwescon.<BR>
<BR>
Any one who has any info they would like to contribute, or sources to <BR>
suggest, feel free to e-mail me ( red@europa.com ).<BR>
<BR>
Cheryl Stella<BR>
aka Red<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 00:48:37 EDT<BR>
From: GypsyComet@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Loeskalth and Far Frontiers Sector Data?<BR>
<BR>
"Sword-Worlder" <swordworlder@yahoo.com> sayeth:<BR>
<BR>
>I just mentioned that Dale Kemper's manuscript for the supplement "The Far<BR>
>Frontiers Sector" (though it covers only the rimward half) exists still and<BR>
>is in good hands.  Dale published much of the info in Ares magazine after<BR>
>FASA decided not to publish the supplement.  Later, Dale did the rimward<BR>
>half of the sector and James Kundert did the coreward half in a series of<BR>
>articles for the Traveller Chronicle.  The TC articles expand on what was in<BR>
>Ares SE2, so you'd need to have both to get all of the details.  The copy of<BR>
>Ares and those early issues of TC ( 2 thru 4 ) are hard to come by, so it is<BR>
>possible that the supplement may be published in some limited way, if it is<BR>
>clear of encumbrances, so that more people have access to it.  For all of<BR>
>that, I have not compared the manuscript with the four articles to see if<BR>
>all of the supplement is actually out, or if Dale made changes between the<BR>
>first writing and the magazine articles.  I'll report more, if I can, when I<BR>
>know.<BR>
<BR>
I have both published versions, and the TC version is a marginally fleshier <BR>
version. Very little information that is in the Ares version didn't get into <BR>
the TC version, as I gather that the Ares version was trimmed (by Dale?) to <BR>
Ares editorial needs. <BR>
 As for copyright encumbrance, Kevin Knight of TC had "first use" only on my <BR>
material. I retain everything else. Dale effectively ended his involvement <BR>
with the material when he provided it to Kevin for publication (based on the <BR>
little contat I had with him), but we should contact him if republication is <BR>
a possibility.<BR>
 If republication IS likely, I will want to do some work on my half. My <BR>
fannish enthusiasm got the better of me the first go 'round, so I have a few <BR>
things to clean up.<BR>
 For the record, I would prefer a paper version of the unified sector.<BR>
<BR>
Jim Kundert<BR>
GypsyComet@aol.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 20:49:31 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Running A Sci-Fi Campaign<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> They are fans of sci-fi in movies and literature. However, they don't <BR>
> have a good grasp on a sci-fi gaming experience. I have discussed it <BR>
> with them to some degree, and most of this may stem from the fact <BR>
> that they feel overwhelmed by the vast amount of options they don't <BR>
> even know they have. Even in a simple scenario, they perceive that <BR>
> there might be a ton of options they don't know about, and apparently <BR>
> get frustrated with this perception.<BR>
<BR>
Well, there are two approachs to this. First, before starting the next<BR>
attempt, loan them the rulebook (at least the parts dealing with player<BR>
stuff). You'll probably have to do this one at a time. Point out that<BR>
they've had to learn what options were available in fantasy games to.<BR>
Which weapons, which spells, etc.<BR>
<BR>
Second, once things start, tell them to *ask* you if they think they<BR>
are missing something their character would know. Heck, while they are<BR>
beginners, you should even *point out* things like that. Just let them<BR>
know that eventually, they'll be expected to know this stuff... <BR>
<BR>
> I spoke with them, and they are just overwhelmed with the options and <BR>
> lack of a good grasp of possibilities to make such decisions. I've <BR>
> been attempting to analyze their gaming styles and goals somewhat, to <BR>
> tailor a scenario to better fit their drives, and make a few <BR>
> decisions at first for them, presenting their options in-game during <BR>
> the first session. "So you want to accept the Scout's offer to <BR>
> explore strange new worlds, or join the chick in the fight against <BR>
> the Zhodani oppressors?" Or whatever.<BR>
><BR>
> One of the players loves political intrigue, but the rest don't <BR>
> really get off on it. Another really enjoys psionics/magic, and <BR>
> having powers as an advantage over others. Yet another wants good <BR>
> roleplay ops. All of them enjoy the occasional fight scene, and <BR>
> rolling the dice.<BR>
<BR>
One thought might be to dig thru some of the magazines and older<BR>
supplements for short one or two session adventures of different types.<BR>
Run the players through a few different times to let the them see the<BR>
various possibilities in more "limited" situations.<BR>
<BR>
Heck, dig out Mayday or Triplanetary (if you use that sort of movement<BR>
system) and let them play a few games of that as *games* to get used to<BR>
stuff like ship movement without any roleplaying. <BR>
<BR>
You can do the same sort of thing with personal combat. Set up a ambush<BR>
or fire-fight scenario (that doesn't "count") to let them play around<BR>
with combat with different weapons and stuff. <BR>
<BR>
Or maybe a *bit* more elaborate, but still a glorified version of<BR>
"capture the flag". Only it's "rescue the hostage" or "steal the plans<BR>
from the guarded building". <BR>
<BR>
Rather than a full fledged adventure, just some stand alone incidents. <BR>
<BR>
This will give folks the "feel" of important parts of the game, without<BR>
having to worry about an overall adventure.<BR>
<BR>
> Fantasy games tend to be combat-oriented encounter strings. Very few <BR>
> Dungeon Crawls and little exploration, although we've kicked the idea <BR>
> around a bit.<BR>
<BR>
Hey! Here's a thought. Get them familiar with Traveller combat and<BR>
equipment by having them generate some Traveller characters and sending<BR>
*them* on a raid into a dungeon. Just be sure to "gear up" the<BR>
inhabitants appropriately. <BR>
<BR>
Just be prepared for stuff like "Why didn't my Neural Activity Sensor<BR>
spot those monsters?" (The answer is "Because Vampires are *undead*. No<BR>
neural activity...")<BR>
<BR>
And even if you don't go on to an actual Traveller campaign, it ought<BR>
to be fun. <BR>
<BR>
Hmmm. You could also try having their *fantasy* characters kindnapped<BR>
by a UFO that turns out to be a Traveller starship. :-)<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 22:17:13 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Smart weapons<BR>
<BR>
The first 'smart weapon would have to be the ( not certain of the name)<BR>
magna-lok trigger system for Smith & Wesson revolvers introduced in the late<BR>
1970's.  In order to fire the guns, the user needed to to be wearing a<BR>
special rare-earth magnetic ring.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"It takes a child to raze a village."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
> From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
> Reply-To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2000 18:51:19 +1200<BR>
> To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
> Subject: RE: Smart weapons<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> On Behalf Of Leonard Erickson<BR>
>> A friend sent me this. I thought it is appropriate as an example of the<BR>
>> things that can "go wrong" with early "smart weapons". :-)<BR>
> <BR>
> BTW, S&W are behind the times, an Australian gun manufacturer is already in<BR>
> production with a "smart" pistol.<BR>
> <BR>
> It won't fire unless the user is wearing an elecronic key currently mounted<BR>
> in a ring, and it fires selectable amounts of ammunition at very high ROF<BR>
> when you squeeze the trigger. The entire action is electronic, and they are<BR>
> already getting contracts with US law enforcement and military.<BR>
> <BR>
> They showed a slo-mo video of the gun putting three bullets into the same<BR>
> hole on a target with a single trigger squeeze.<BR>
> <BR>
> This was shown on the TV news over here a couple of days ago, interspersed<BR>
> with shots of Stallone's version of Judge Dredd, but unfortunately I don't<BR>
> have a web site reference.<BR>
> <BR>
> Frankie<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 21:21:59 -0800<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Boardgames (was Re:Basic Economics) <BR>
<BR>
"James W. Lindsay" <jlindsay@home.com> wrote<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> > > The rules you are looking for, Peter, can be found in a host of excellent<BR>
> > > Avalon Hill games.  <BR>
<BR>
> > > Wargames are *much* more reliant on accurate rules than<BR>
> > > roleplaying games.  Compare the rulebooks for Traveller and Third Reich to<BR>
> > > see the difference.  The former includes statements like "referees are <BR>
> > > free to disregard the rules" or "if there is a conflict with the rules,<BR>
> > > the referee has the final say".  The latter includes precise, specific<BR>
> > > rules regarding what can and cannot be done.<BR>
<BR>
> > As did some role playing games.<BR>
> <BR>
> Never seen one (a draconian RPG rule set, that is). <BR>
 <BR>
SPI's Dragonquest is a prime example.<BR>
<BR>
> Hell, I've even seen<BR>
> the opposite-- wargames that include suggestions like "roll a die to solve<BR>
> the current dispute and come up with your own rules after the game to<BR>
> handle future similar situations".<BR>
<BR>
This is _extremely_ poor board game design. Any board game that<BR>
includes this rule has a strong potential to degenerate into<BR>
nothing more than an endless series of arguments.<BR>
<BR>
If any dispute over the rules can be settled by a random roll<BR>
then it is in the best interests of each player to deliberately<BR>
misunderstand each and every rule, reinterpret in a manner that<BR>
is advantageous to himself and then vehemently argue said point<BR>
hoping to provoke a random die roll in the hopes that the random <BR>
roll will be in his favor.<BR>
<BR>
In any game where this rule exists game theory gives a positive<BR>
rules benefit to being a munchkin weasel. I do not care to <BR>
play games of that sort. The arguments come to overwhelm<BR>
the play. I want to know that anytime I get into a rules<BR>
discussion it is only because the rules are sufficiently <BR>
ambiguous that the other player is legitimately capable of <BR>
misinterpretation.<BR>
<BR>
In any board game system where the rules give a positive game<BR>
benefit (a 50% chance of the random roll establishing that<BR>
you are right) to deliberate misinterpretation of the rules than<BR>
that is what munchkins will do. Moreover said rule makes it far <BR>
more likely that a rules dispute will degenerate into a personal <BR>
argument, not a discussion.<BR>
<BR>
Case in point: A game that has the 'roll a die over a disputed<BR>
rule' rule.<BR>
<BR>
The rules state "Benefits of terrain cover are lost when<BR>
two forces occupy the same hex."<BR>
<BR>
A situation arises when _three_ forces occupy the same hex.<BR>
<BR>
My point of view is that if the designers had meant "Benefits<BR>
of terrain cover are lost when two _or_more_ forces occupy the<BR>
same hex." then that is what they would have written. Therefore<BR>
terrain cover benefits apply.<BR>
<BR>
Your point of view is that since the rules do not say "Benefits<BR>
of terrain cover are lost when two _and_only_two_ forces occupy<BR>
the same hex." then any situation where three forces occupy the<BR>
same hex is a subset of the situation where two forces occupy<BR>
the hex. That if three forces are present it is also true that<BR>
two forces are present. Therefore terrain cover benefits do<BR>
not apply.<BR>
<BR>
The third player will attempt to refer back to his understanding<BR>
of the historical and tactical situation that existed in the<BR>
battle the rules are representing. He will then argue that<BR>
based on the size of the hexes and the size of the units they<BR>
represent that three or more forces can not occupy the same<BR>
hex since they will not fit. Therefore we need to revert the<BR>
game to the moment immediately before the third force entered <BR>
the hex.<BR>
<BR>
All three points of view are arguably legitimate by the letter of the<BR>
rules. But if the rules establish a game benefit for deliberate<BR>
use of spurious argument then the games will include more<BR>
spurious arguments, this is not a situation I care to play<BR>
in. This rule is also likely to put a strain on friendships as<BR>
the players now have to wonder if every rules debate is real or <BR>
if their opponent is simply presenting a false argument to get<BR>
the 50% random roll. YMMV<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 21:43:47 -0800<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: An alternate TL definition (heresy warning)<BR>
<BR>
Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com> wrote<BR>
> Subject: Re: <BR>
> <BR>
> Peter Newman writes:<BR>
<BR>
Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com> wrote<BR>
> > > TTL 0   1   2   3   4   5   6   7   8   9   A   B   C   D   E   F   G<BR>
> > > GTL 1   4   5   5   5   6   6   7   8   9   9   9   10  10  11  12  12<BR>
> > > Cr  30  60  125 180 250 350 500 1k  2k  25h 3k  4k  5k  7k  10k 14k 20k<BR>
<BR>
Peter Newman wrote<BR>
> > GURPS TL    Basic Wealth   <BR>
> >             (in CR Imp)<BR>
> > 0                 40<BR>
> > 1                 80<BR>
> > 2                160   <BR>
> > 3                330<BR>
> > 4                660<BR>
> > 5              1,300<BR>
> > 6              2,700<BR>
> > 7              5,300<BR>
> > 8              8,000<BR>
> > 9             12,000      <BR>
> >10             18,000      <BR>
> >11             27,000<BR>
> >12             40,000<BR>
<BR>
> > I agree with your basic premise but note that these figures do<BR>
> > not match previous canonical GURPS figures. <BR>
<BR>
> Actually, there's previous canon for GURPS in Far Trader.  I don't perfectly<BR>
> match those figures (I reduce wealth quite a bit from those numbers, in fact)<BR>
> but that's deliberate.  In any case, base TTL-15 wealth is Cr 15,000 in there.<BR>
<BR>
How likely does it seem to you that income will approximately<BR>
double each TL between TL 3 and TL 7 and then remain at a<BR>
flat number from then on? As technology has progressed<BR>
to date it has made people wealthier, why will this stop?<BR>
<BR>
My figures try to hold true to the notions that TL 3<BR>
starting wealth = $1,000, TL 7 starting wealth = $15,000 <BR>
1987 US $'s and that CR Imp 1 is about $3 in 2000 US $'s.<BR>
<BR>
I was referring to the wealth levels at TL 3, and TL 7. We've <BR>
been TL 3 and are/or were until this year TL 7. Therefore our <BR>
estimates of wealth levels at these TL's is likely to be more <BR>
valid then our estimate of wealth at TL 12. Therefore, to me at <BR>
least, the TL 12 wealth determination of Cr 15,000 is questionable.<BR>
<BR>
Why is per capita income at GTL 3 Cr 220 in Far Trader when<BR>
20 previous GURPS supplements had average income at<BR>
$1,000. (Basic Set) Similarly why is GTL 7 per capita wealth <BR>
Cr 1,430 when average starting wealth in a TL 7 society is $15,000 <BR>
(Basic set)?<BR>
<BR>
I am aware of the table in GT: Far Trader but it does not<BR>
(in my opinion) accurately represent wealth levels at<BR>
these lower TL's in GURPS canon or in reality. YMMV.<BR>
<BR>
On the other hand this may well have been deliberate choice<BR>
by the Far Trader writers but it does not make sense to me;<BR>
except perhaps if income on a GTL 7 planet in the Imperium<BR>
is significantly less than that of a TL 7 nation on Earth<BR>
possibly due to local industry being unable to compete<BR>
with cheaper foreign imports.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 01:45:44 -0400<BR>
From: Walt Smith <smithw@hartwick.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Boardgames (was Re:Basic Economics) <BR>
<BR>
Peter Newman wrote:<BR>
>James Lindsay wrote:<BR>
>> Never seen one (a draconian RPG rule set, that is). <BR>
><BR>
>SPI's Dragonquest is a prime example.<BR>
<BR>
Sorry Peter, Dragonquest is only "draconian" in that it has the word<BR>
"Dragon" in the title.  Don't let those case statements fool you.  :-)<BR>
<BR>
Dragonquest 3rd ed., copyright TSR 1989, SPI 1980, '81, '82.<BR>
<BR>
p iii:<BR>
"He [the gamemaster] has a very free hand to interpret the situation<BR>
as he sees fit within the guidelines of the rules."<BR>
<BR>
p iv:<BR>
"A third concept in mind during the design process was to maintain the<BR>
game's flexibility, and allow the GM and the players to to expand on<BR>
the original rules.  This may seem to be an obvious statement to those<BR>
readers who are veteran role players, but for those to whom this game is<BR>
a first experience, it is a concept not to be glossed over.<BR>
<BR>
"In every adventure, situations will arise in which the GM will be called <BR>
upon to interpret or add to the rules."<BR>
<BR>
"The GM is empowered to change whatever he wishes (with the mutual<BR>
consent of the players) in order to make the game more enjoyable for<BR>
all concerned."<BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 22:01:37 -0800<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Peter Newman's Traveller Universe - evidence from the books<BR>
<BR>
Jason Postma <JasonP@i-link.net> wrote<BR>
<BR>
> Second, the "Standard Designs" controversy:<BR>
> Evidence that the "Standard Designs" found in the MegaTraveller Imperial<BR>
> Encyclopedia and on the encounter charts are not the only standard designs:<BR>
> <BR>
> The Scout ship encounter table shows <BR>
> 2: Xboat Tender, <BR>
> 3, 5-6: Scout Ship, <BR>
> 4: Non-standard, <BR>
> 7-10: Survey Ship, <BR>
> and 11-12: Scout Cruiser. <BR>
 <BR>
> There are no stats for Xboat Tenders, Survey Ships, and Scout Cruisers in<BR>
> the Imperial Encyclopedia (in the now-infamous "standard designs" list), yet<BR>
> they are not considered "Non-standard" designs on this table (that's a<BR>
> seperate entry).<BR>
<BR>
> The Xboat Ship type table is similar:<BR>
> 2-3: Scout Courier<BR>
> 4: Non-standard<BR>
> 5-7: Xboat<BR>
> 8-11: Xboat Tender<BR>
> 12: Xboat + Tender<BR>
> Again, there are no stats for Xboats in the Imperial Encyclopedia, but they<BR>
> are not a "Non-standard" design - that is a seperate entry on the table.<BR>
<BR>
> As standard designs exist which are not found in the Imperial Encylcopedia<BR>
> (namely Xboats, Xboat Tenders, Scout Survey Ships, and Scout Cruisers); <BR>
> Therefore, the designs found in the Imperial Encyclopedia are not the limit<BR>
> of standard designs, they are a sampling.<BR>
> Will you accept that reasoning, Peter?<BR>
<BR>
No. "The designs listed _here_ are standard: that is each ship<BR>
type is mass-produced in shipyards throughout the Imperium." [MT<BR>
Impe Enc p76]<BR>
<BR>
Xboats, Xboat Tenders, Scout Survey Ships, and Scout Cruisers <BR>
do not appear on the subsequent list of standard ships (which <BR>
most people insist is a partial list and I insist is a complete <BR>
list).<BR>
<BR>
Therefore Xboats, Tenders, Survey Ships and Scout Cruisers<BR>
must not be mass produced throughout the Imperium. They are<BR>
common enough to appear in any system which suggests  that they <BR>
must be mass produced. But since they do not appear on the<BR>
'standard' list they must not be "mass produced in shipyards <BR>
throughout the Imperium. This would tend to suggest (to me) <BR>
that the Scout Service has their ships manufactured for them <BR>
at only a limited number of places (possibly only at A ports <BR>
with an attached Scout facility and Scout Facilites at A ports <BR>
are quite scarce) The Scout vessels are ubiqutous (and thus<BR>
appear on the encounter charts) because the Scout Service gets <BR>
around so much. But they are apparently not manufactured "in <BR>
shipyards throughout the Imperium." The Scout-Courier which does <BR>
appear on the list of standard ships must, therefore, be manufactured <BR>
at more places than other Scout ships.<BR>
<BR>
There is nothing implausible about government ships not being<BR>
mass produced throughout the Imperium (and thus not being<BR>
standard). The same situation occurs for all Naval ships for<BR>
instance. Therefore canon indicates that the Scout Courier<BR>
is the only government ship mass produced throughout the Imperium.<BR>
Other ships must be made at only a limited number of facilities.<BR>
<BR>
For further (CT) text evidence of this position see Azhanti High<BR>
Lighting and The Kinnunir. Both ships were made at only a limited<BR>
number of ports. I think the same situation applies to the scout<BR>
vessesls.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 22:04:55 -0800<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: 101 Anal Retentive Rules<BR>
<BR>
"Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
<BR>
> Fear not, I'm currently writing _101 Anal Retentive Rules_ for BITS.<BR>
<BR>
Can you make it 1,001 Anal Retentive Rules? I don't think<BR>
101 is enough. :)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 16:07:53 +1000<BR>
From: Graeme_Batho@agd.nsw.gov.au<BR>
Subject: TML Archives<BR>
<BR>
Can someone tell me how to request a TML digest from the archives? I've lost the<BR>
information,<BR>
 and missed some digests when they were mucking around with our mail system at<BR>
work.<BR>
<BR>
Graeme<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 23:32:35 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Running A Sci-Fi Campaign<BR>
<BR>
> Greetings, All,<BR>
> <BR>
> I'm a GM desperately looking for advice to improve his ability to run<BR>
> Sci-Fi campaigns. For some reason, I think I'm missing some critical<BR>
> point, because most of my SF games tend to end rather quickly, unlike<BR>
> my fantasy or World of Darkness games. I can't seem to get my players<BR>
> involved in them, and I am looking for suggestions to help me improve<BR>
> my ability to run a Traveller game that will last more than the first<BR>
> night or the first adventure. Is it really that big a difference in<BR>
> gamemastering?<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
As a referee of traveller for the last 20 years, my advise is to get the<BR>
players involved in the 'wheels within wheels'.  Assuming your players are<BR>
more sophisticated than the simple hack and slash types, try to get them<BR>
involved in a small piece of a great plot.  Make sure they never really see<BR>
the whole picture.  Also, it helps to develope one or two home areas to a<BR>
very high degree.  Characters can spend too much time travelling.<BR>
<BR>
You may get some ideas by looking over the game notes on our site<BR>
chronicling the last year and a half of realtime, nearly every weekend.<BR>
Most of the narrative covers only a couple of adventures.<BR>
<BR>
Another tip is to spend time on character development.  Pay attention to the<BR>
players' interests, fears etc.  Make sure to introduce elements into play<BR>
which may not have anything to do with the adventure at hand, but play on<BR>
the characters interests.<BR>
<BR>
hope that helps.<BR>
<BR>
for game narratives, see http://www.travellercentral.com,  look in the 'game<BR>
notes'<BR>
<BR>
- ----<BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2297<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2298</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
Date:	4/12/00 5:07:37 AM Pacific Daylight Time<BR>
From:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
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Traveller-digest     Wednesday, April 12 2000     Volume 1999 : Number 2298<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: 101 Anal Retentive Rules<BR>
Re: 101 Anal Retentive Rules<BR>
Re: Secrets of ACQ<BR>
RE: Peter Newman's view of Traveller<BR>
My view of rules<BR>
Re: 101 Anal Retentive Rules<BR>
Re: 101 Anal Retentive Rules<BR>
Trav Skills<BR>
Re: Lost Keith Bros Supplements<BR>
Defence - strong, capable (just add materiel)<BR>
Norris is still de man<BR>
Re: Sci Fi Campaigns<BR>
"Telzey Amberdon" is out!<BR>
Re: Just what is TL?<BR>
Re: Running A Sci-Fi Campaign<BR>
Re: Smart weapons<BR>
Re: Planet III Software<BR>
Re: Astronomy in the 57th Century<BR>
RE: Planet III Software -  I have 2!<BR>
RE: Running A Sci-Fi Campaign<BR>
GT economics (was Re: An alternate TL definition) <BR>
Re: Just what is TL?<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 03:21:23 -0400<BR>
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: 101 Anal Retentive Rules<BR>
<BR>
Peter Newman wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
><BR>
> > Fear not, I'm currently writing _101 Anal Retentive Rules_ for BITS.<BR>
><BR>
> Can you make it 1,001 Anal Retentive Rules? I don't think<BR>
> 101 is enough. :)<BR>
<BR>
No, no, no.<BR>
<BR>
The rules that aren't in the 101 Anally Retentive Rules<BR>
go in the Anally Retentive Appendix, which comes after<BR>
the Anally Retentive Annotations of the 101 Anally<BR>
Retentive Rules, and before the Anally Retentive<BR>
Bibliography and the Anally Retentive Index, which is<BR>
followed by the Anally Retentive "About the Anally<BR>
Retentive Author."<BR>
<BR>
Hmm.  That is getting a little cluttered and untidy.<BR>
Oh well, we'll throw that away in our clean and neat<BR>
trash, and start over.<BR>
<BR>
Five hours later . . .<BR>
<BR>
We begin writing the Unabridged Annotated and Appendicied<BR>
Anthology of 101 Anally Retentive Rules, Complete with some<BR>
high-quality acid free paper.  First, we take our sealed ream<BR>
of paper and using a clean letter opener, don't you love a good<BR>
letter opener?, carefully separate the glued folds of the paper<BR>
container, being careful not to rip the paper.  Easy does it.<BR>
There.  Now we adjust the stack of paper neatly, making<BR>
all the sides flush and . . . oh my . . . this sheet has a folder<BR>
corner . . . oh, well, we'll dispose of that one.  Now we use our<BR>
favorite straight edge, I like to use a metal 12-inch ruler, but<BR>
you can use whatever is handy.  I keep my ruler in a nice holster,<BR>
which is made from some antique american quilt fabric I found<BR>
at an Amish settlement, and you can see I've spiced it up with<BR>
some rhinestones, and I have it attached to the side of my<BR>
work table.  Now, back to the paper.  We use the straight<BR>
edge to make the edges of the stack of paper flush and . . .<BR>
oh dear . . . this sheet has a small crinkle, so out it goes . . .<BR>
and this one has seems to be off-white . . .and the next one<BR>
has a watermark that is too visible . . .well.  We'll just throw<BR>
this whole ream out and go to the office supply store for more.<BR>
First, we put our straight edge back in its holster.  Then we<BR>
remove our working apron and gloves, being careful not to<BR>
get any dust on them, and hang them on their labelled hooks in<BR>
our closet.  Then we get our keys . . . now where did I put<BR>
those keys . .<BR>
<BR>
[STOP ME, PLEASE!]<BR>
<BR>
bloo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 01:28:34 -0700<BR>
From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@worldnet.att.net><BR>
Subject: Re: 101 Anal Retentive Rules<BR>
<BR>
Steve Daniels wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> The rules that aren't in the 101 Anally Retentive Rules<BR>
> go in the Anally Retentive Appendix, which comes after<BR>
> the Anally Retentive Annotations of the 101 Anally<BR>
> Retentive Rules, and before the Anally Retentive<BR>
> Bibliography and the Anally Retentive Index, which is<BR>
> followed by the Anally Retentive "About the Anally<BR>
> Retentive Author."<BR>
><BR>
> Hmm.  That is getting a little cluttered and untidy.<BR>
> Oh well, we'll throw that away in our clean and neat<BR>
> trash, and start over.<BR>
><BR>
> Five hours later . . .<BR>
><BR>
> We begin writing the Unabridged Annotated and Appendicied<BR>
> Anthology of 101 Anally Retentive Rules,<BR>
<BR>
 Was that going to be the expigated Edition? The one with out<BR>
the Gannet?<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
Evyn...<BR>
<BR>
C-Space home http://home.att.net/~wmacdude/<BR>
<BR>
Get six jolly cowboys to carry my coffin<BR>
Get six pretty maidens to bear up my pall<BR>
Bunches of roses all over my coffin<BR>
Roses to deaden the clods as they fall<BR>
 Laredo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 09:11:59 +0100<BR>
From: "Derrick Jones" <dojones.whitestar@btinternet.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Secrets of ACQ<BR>
<BR>
Dom Mooney:<BR>
>A question for those who know - you may have noticed that Derrick <BR>
>Jones and Matt Bond have been having a surreal conversation using the <BR>
>rules for ACQ and Penguins. But can anyone explain why Derrick <BR>
>prefers to eat unripened Penguins over cold, hot, custard and other <BR>
>varieties. ;-)<BR>
><BR>
>Dom - who saw him eat at least three today. 8-o<BR>
<BR>
Take that back! You *saw* me eat two. (I ate the other one in secret, with <BR>
nobody watching) You may have seen me dig through the packet removing<BR>
all the horrible red, blue and yellow(urgh!) ones to get at my prize, so nobody<BR>
else could nick it. But you didn't SEE me eat it.<BR>
<BR>
Cold, hot, custard? unripened? You are mad, man! Everyone knows the varieties<BR>
are urggh! urghh! urrgh! and lovely mmm gorgeous. <BR>
<BR>
Somebody came up with two new variations the other week: minty and orangey<BR>
penguins. I shuddered and politely refused. Is nothing sacred?<BR>
<BR>
Doug Berry:<BR>
>I'm told I will learn this horrible secret in August.  <BR>
<BR>
Beleive me, Doug, you really don't want to know..... (And I am not going<BR>
to repeat the experiment. -  the consequences of failure would be too<BR>
horrific to consider!)<BR>
<BR>
Nowadays, if someone were to repeat the experiment, I would decline to<BR>
choose one of the penguins. It is a far better thing to go without than to <BR>
risk the effects of the red, blue or yellow (urgh).<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Derrick<BR>
<BR>
Derrick Jones<BR>
St Helens<BR>
Lancashire UK<BR>
http://www.btinternet.com/~dojones.whitestar<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 05:22:33 -0700<BR>
From: "Antony Farrell" <Skaran@bigpond.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Peter Newman's view of Traveller<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Peter Newman<BR>
> Sent: Monday, 10 April 2000 10:23 PM<BR>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> Subject: Re: Peter Newman's view of Traveller<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> "Smith, Walter" <SmithW@hartwick.edu> wrote<BR>
><BR>
> > Peter, I agree that the tone of my earlier post was insulting.  I<BR>
> > apologize, it was out of line.<BR>
><BR>
> Apology accepted.<BR>
><BR>
> > We have very different, quite incompatible philosophies about the<BR>
> > intent and best use of the Traveller rule sets.  Due to essays, notes<BR>
> > and messages published by the authors, I believe that my philosophy is<BR>
> > closer to what the authors intended.<BR>
><BR>
> I would not be surprised if your reading were in fact<BR>
> closer to what they intended but I was trying to discuss<BR>
> what they actually wrote especially in the introductory<BR>
> materiel on p5-6 of the Players Manual & the Referees<BR>
> Manual.<BR>
><BR>
> > Can we talk about near-C rocks now?<BR>
><BR>
> Why use rocks? Metal hulled ships have less waste space<BR>
> and weigh less therefore they can probably go faster. :)<BR>
><BR>
Its also a great use for those CT Scoutships built at TL9 which suddenly<BR>
fall apart in the TNE universe where a minimum TL11 is required to make<BR>
Jump-2. (Best to get these anachronistic ships out of the way).<BR>
Antony<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 05:22:31 -0700<BR>
From: "Antony Farrell" <Skaran@bigpond.com><BR>
Subject: My view of rules<BR>
<BR>
I have run CT, MT and TNE, I ran my first game in 1978.<BR>
I also run Rolemaster and currently a Gurps Horror game.<BR>
I have stacks of rulebooks, and as I have told my players the<BR>
sole purpose is to give the impression that I have actually read<BR>
them. Well I have looked at them, but only those bits that interested me.<BR>
<BR>
In my games, and those of GMs I am in games with we stress role-playing<BR>
not rule-playing or even roll(dice)-playing.<BR>
<BR>
If the GM and players are having fun then that is the only criteria of any<BR>
value.<BR>
<BR>
Antony<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 05:48:10 -0400<BR>
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: 101 Anal Retentive Rules<BR>
<BR>
Evyn MacDude wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> > We begin writing the Unabridged Annotated and Appendicied<BR>
> > Anthology of 101 Anally Retentive Rules,<BR>
><BR>
>  Was that going to be the expigated Edition? The one with out<BR>
> the Gannet?<BR>
<BR>
Whew!  That reference almost slipped by.<BR>
<BR>
Isn't it awfully nice to have an appendix . . .<BR>
<BR>
bloo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 05:50:11 -0400<BR>
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: 101 Anal Retentive Rules<BR>
<BR>
Evyn MacDude wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>  Was that going to be the expigated Edition? The one with out<BR>
> the Gannet?<BR>
<BR>
And its "expurgated"  :-)<BR>
<BR>
No pigs were harmed.  I wonder how if pifs are modelled<BR>
correctly in ACQ?<BR>
<BR>
bloo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 08:21:47 +1000<BR>
From: "Karen and Michael Hughes" <kmhughes@dynamite.com.au><BR>
Subject: Trav Skills<BR>
<BR>
<spin><BR>
><BR>
> Note that I am envisioning this as essentially a "Webster's<BR>
> Dictionary of Traveller Skills" - no procedures for resolution of<BR>
> tasks involving the skills, no indications of how a character<BR>
> gets the skill, just the name of the skill (and any alternates<BR>
> from other versions of Traveller), the description of the skill,<BR>
> and an indication of the source. _Possibly_, depending on the<BR>
> ultimate size/complexity of the project, a *ix-style "permuted<BR>
> index" is contemplated, to make it easier for someone looking for<BR>
> a skill for a particular purpose to find the "right" one.<BR>
><BR>
> Again, depending on various viability-affecting factors, I may<BR>
> also ask for your input - have you invented skills to fill in<BR>
> gaps in the skill set, and if so, what are they? Don't send or<BR>
> post them yet; but keep the question in mind...<BR>
> - --<BR>
> Jeff Zeitlin<BR>
> jzeitlin@cyburban.com<BR>
><BR>
Gurps Traveller had a pretty comprehensive list in the 'converting your old<BR>
characters to GURPS' section. Well - at least 90%. This of course does not<BR>
cover any of the alien modules (wah - I have only ever been in the presence<BR>
of one such work once - and it was good. There was drinking too).<BR>
<BR>
Michael<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 09:13:14 +0100<BR>
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Lost Keith Bros Supplements<BR>
<BR>
At 11:30 10/04/2000 +0100, you wrote:<BR>
>Woo hoo, they're here. I've been waking up every morning<BR>
>just before the postman arrives for the last few weeks in<BR>
>anticipation of their impending arrival. No postie this morning<BR>
>at 7am, but a parcel delivery just 10 minutes ago.<BR>
><BR>
>First looks... I'm very impressed.. The detail that Paul has gone <BR>
>into is immense. Imperial Starport authority bar chits....<BR>
>Amazing. <BR>
><BR>
>I'd like to publicly thank Paul for all his time and effort, sometimes<BR>
>in the face of criticism, for a job well done. I'd also like to thank him<BR>
>for rewarding my miniscule amount of help so generously. There<BR>
>are some that would forget little things, and make empty promises<BR>
>with no intention of standing by them. Not so Mr Sanders. He kept<BR>
>his promise to someone who he'd never met, or was ever likely to.<BR>
><BR>
>A gentleman and a scholar!<BR>
<BR>
They reached Colchester, UK the previous Wednesday. I did mean to post<BR>
a thanks message but since I didn't, I'll just "me too!" this one.<BR>
<BR>
;-)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Phil Kitching<BR>
- --<BR>
  http://www.btinternet.com/~salvo/<BR>
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.<BR>
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 08:27:15 +1000<BR>
From: "Karen and Michael Hughes" <kmhughes@dynamite.com.au><BR>
Subject: Defence - strong, capable (just add materiel)<BR>
<BR>
<< PPS Of course this involves me saying 'you retired but have another<BR>
 mission'. It's up there with 'you are in a tavern and you see some people<BR>
 that look friendly'. >><BR>
<BR>
A: I'm afraid you must undertake another mission to repay the firm for that<BR>
air/raft you destroyed.<BR>
<BR>
B: What air/raft?<BR>
<BR>
A: It's here on the property book you signed when you assumed command -- and<BR>
your sucessor reports it missing . . .<BR>
<BR>
B: There wasn't any air/raft on post when I took command . . .<BR>
<BR>
A: Then you shouldn't have signed the property book . . .<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<snipped from GDW AOL><BR>
<BR>
I see you too have worked for Defence at some point..... :)<BR>
<BR>
Michael (who has seen some whacko defies logic stuff like you would not<BR>
believe).<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 08:29:16 +1000<BR>
From: "Karen and Michael Hughes" <kmhughes@dynamite.com.au><BR>
Subject: Norris is still de man<BR>
<BR>
>Wah is not canonical cause it's DGP - But one of the last MT journals had a<BR>
>celebrity interview with him. Who wrote that - they are a god. One of the<BR>
>finest RPG magazine efforts around.<BR>
<BR>
Arrival Vengeance is GDW not DGP.<BR>
MT Journal is DGP.<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
What's your point Vanessa?<BR>
<BR>
Michael<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 00:02:20 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Sci Fi Campaigns<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> PPS Of course this involves me saying 'you retired but have another<BR>
> mission'. It's up there with 'you are in a tavern and you see some people<BR>
> that look friendly'.<BR>
<BR>
Check out some famous SF series and how they kept dragging the hero<BR>
into yet another "mission". The Stainless Steel Rat usually gets<BR>
blackmailed into it...<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 00:04:25 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: "Telzey Amberdon" is out!<BR>
<BR>
"Telzey Amberdon" is the first of a 4 book set that will reprint *all*<BR>
of James Schmitz's "Federation of the Hub" stories.<BR>
<BR>
The Hub is a great place to swipe ideas from, and rather interesting in<BR>
and of itself. The humans are Terran-descended, but Earth is a long<BR>
ways off in space *and* time (Earth may have been destroyed in a war,<BR>
but even if it does exist, it's not something that *matters* to folks<BR>
here).<BR>
<BR>
Since the first two volumes are mostly stories about Telzey, I'll take<BR>
a moment to describe her. She's 14 or 15 when we first meet her, but<BR>
she's already attending university, as she's something of a genius. And<BR>
thanks to event in the first story, she's a rather strong psi.<BR>
<BR>
For Telzey, the Federation Psychology Service (which seems to be more<BR>
interested in dealing with psis than in psychology), and the various<BR>
*possibilities* involved in psionics as seen by Schmitz the book is<BR>
worth the price. <BR>
<BR>
But the way the government works, the way the *societies* (yes,<BR>
*plural*) work, are also well worth mining for ideas. <BR>
<BR>
There *are* major factors that make this *not* Traveller. For one, they<BR>
have *interstellar* comm links that not only don't depend on ships,<BR>
they are *faster* than ships. And the ships themselves are a lot faster<BR>
(nearby stars are only hours away). But the federation is *huge*. There<BR>
are places weeks away. <BR>
<BR>
It's not much bigger than the Imperium (there's a mention in one story<BR>
of there being 1258 member worlds). But there's a lot of other human<BR>
groups outside the Federation.<BR>
<BR>
File off a few serial numbers, and this might be something to stick<BR>
*way* to the rimward of the Solomani...<BR>
<BR>
Or just steal the Psychology Service. They'd actually fit quite nicely<BR>
into the Imperium, though a few of their setups (like the psionic<BR>
"contraband scanner" at the starport we run into early on) would be<BR>
*much* lower profile. <BR>
<BR>
To give you an idea, Telzey's first "encounter" with them is when that<BR>
"scanner" which *supposedly* only checks for contraband notes her as a<BR>
new psi, and deftly inserts a sort of "compulsion" to either quit using<BR>
her abilities or join them... All *very* deftly handled. Mind you,<BR>
Telzey has little trouble finding it once she looks. <BR>
<BR>
Still, that strikes me as the sort of thing the agencies dealing with<BR>
psis in the Imperium would try if they could. <BR>
<BR>
*Don't* let your players read it if you want to use a couple of the<BR>
cuter tricks. The like "hound". A telepathic, *teleporting* hunter.<BR>
Picture something like a dire wolf, that can be set on a mental "scent"<BR>
and unless you can keep your mental shields up, homes in on you for the<BR>
teleport using your own thoughts... <BR>
<BR>
Yes, there's a way to survive, even if you are alone and a long ways<BR>
from help. But you'll have to read the book to find it. :-)<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 23:27:50 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Just what is TL?<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>>The problem I was illustrating is that there is a vast gulf of difference<BR>
>>between scientific theory (which the tech level system, being linear, seems<BR>
>>to assume) and practical use (which the tech level system, as described in<BR>
>>the rules, seems to assume as well). One does not need metalworking to<BR>
>>discover gunpowder, nor does one need metalworking to discover concrete.<BR>
>>One does not need metalworking to use either.<BR>
><BR>
> You do need metalworking to use gunpowder as I pointed out. However, that's<BR>
> by the way. In the TU you don't need anything except a mail order catalog<BR>
> to discover any technology. TLs are, IMO, exclusively _application TL_, not<BR>
> discovery TL.<BR>
<BR>
Excuse me? I seem to have missed the post where you show that<BR>
metalworking is needed to use gunpowder? It'll make nice *bombs* in<BR>
clay pots.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 01:51:42 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Running A Sci-Fi Campaign<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> I'm from the "Call of Cthulhu" school of handouts. Handouts should serve two<BR>
> functions: the first is to give information to the player characters, the<BR>
> second is to draw them into the gaming world. I love giving handouts out,<BR>
> and my players seem to enjoy them. When possible, try to design handouts<BR>
> from **within** the game world. Physically this means that you should use<BR>
> futuristic fonts. You should also add some little details here and there,<BR>
> such as that old CT favorite: a barcode looking thing down in the corner of<BR>
> a form.<BR>
<BR>
Barcode fonts are easily available. And if you don't mind spending a<BR>
few bucks, you can pick up bar code readers fairly cheap. This means<BR>
that if you have a computer handy, you can boggle the players by<BR>
"scanning in" info from handouts you gavce them about equipment or<BR>
whatever.<BR>
<BR>
I have a bar code wand for my old 8-bit "notebook" computer and at one<BR>
time was considering using bardcodes to save "secret" info about magic<BR>
items on the cards I gave players when they got one.<BR>
<BR>
> adapted to all sorts of roleplaying games). For obvious reasons you should<BR>
> stay away from "single character" stories (a lot of sci-fi books are "single<BR>
> character" books, and while they're great for flavor and snagging ideas,<BR>
> they aren't always great for seeing how groups with different skills can<BR>
> work together). <BR>
<BR>
The Andre Norton "Solar Queen" novels are good here. They are about the<BR>
crew of a free trader, and it usually takes contributions by several of<BR>
the crew to work things out. For example, at least *twice* their<BR>
medic's hobby of studying native "magic" has helped them out of a spot.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 01:44:09 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Smart weapons<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
><BR>
>>Actually, it seems cops are (somewhat) in *favor* of them. They<BR>
><BR>
>>*know* how many officers get shot with their own weapon after <BR>
>>it is taken away from them during a fight.<BR>
>><BR>
>>Of course, once the folks on the street find out whether it's <BR>
>>the ring or wristband or <whatever> that enables firing, <BR>
>>they'll just take that after disarming the officer. But it <BR>
>>*will* make it harder to shoot the officer *during* the initial<BR>
><BR>
>>struggle.<BR>
><BR>
> Why make it a ring or wristband or whatever?  Why not make it an<BR>
> implant or something swallowed?  If it's swallowed, it will pass<BR>
> out of the body regularly for maintenance and can be passed to<BR>
> another officer.  If it's an implant, it could be anywhere -- in<BR>
> a tooth, in the mastoid sinus, whereever.  <BR>
<BR>
The problem with your idea is that then the officer's gun can still be<BR>
used to shoot hi, *Especially* during a struggle when the gun will be<BR>
as close if not closer to his body as it is when in his normal firing<BR>
posture. <BR>
<BR>
That's why they prefer a ring, but (currently) settle for a wristband.<BR>
Because that way the gizmo is ony a few inches from the gun. Get the<BR>
gun a foot or more away from the gizmo, and the gun won't fire. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 23:12:58 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Planet III Software<BR>
<BR>
On 9 Apr 00, at 16:27, Nick Bradbeer wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> ISTR a post to the effect that Planet III released their Traveller<BR>
> Navigator software into the public domain. However, I can't seem to find<BR>
> the software available anywhere on the web. Does anybody know anything<BR>
> about this? Does anybody know where it's possible to find it?<BR>
<BR>
I Think I've got copy of that stuff, assuming that the HD it's on <BR>
deigns to go. It's fuor seperate programs, one for each sector (at <BR>
least that's how I got it, I don't know what it looks like installed, <BR>
as I've never gotten round to it). E-mail me if want a copy and I'll <BR>
mail them to you, if they're not too large.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
An pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 23:12:58 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Astronomy in the 57th Century<BR>
<BR>
On 9 Apr 00, at 9:17, Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> In mail you write:<BR>
> <BR>
> > On Sat, 08 Apr 2000, Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
> ><BR>
> > [...]<BR>
> >> So again, FF&S blows it. LOX/LH2 makes a lot of sense in Traveller,<BR>
> >> expecially for space installations. You need tankage and handling for<BR>
> >> LH2 anyway, and in anything much larger than a ship's boat, LOX is the<BR>
> >> best way to store oxygen.<BR>
> > [...]<BR>
> ><BR>
> > FF&S specifies that fuel cells burn hydrocarbon distillates or LHyd.<BR>
> <BR>
> Does it make any mention of them needing an oxygen supply?<BR>
<BR>
Not that I can find. However WTH does, and notes that for Cr50 per m^3 <BR>
of fuel tankage you can arrange to have LHyd tanks rigged to accept O2 <BR>
in half of their volume. This allows engines and fuel cells to operate <BR>
outside of an oxygen atmosphere, at half normal endurance.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
An pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 07:58:03 -0400<BR>
From: "John Toth" <jrtoth@bbtel.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Planet III Software -  I have 2!<BR>
<BR>
I found the Ones I bought.<BR>
<BR>
I got Old Expanses and Diaspora sectors. If you Need them Drop a note.<BR>
<BR>
John T<BR>
<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
[mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Rupert<BR>
Boleyn<BR>
Sent: Wednesday, April 12, 2000 7:13 AM<BR>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Planet III Software<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
On 9 Apr 00, at 16:27, Nick Bradbeer wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> ISTR a post to the effect that Planet III released their Traveller<BR>
> Navigator software into the public domain. However, I can't seem to find<BR>
> the software available anywhere on the web. Does anybody know anything<BR>
> about this? Does anybody know where it's possible to find it?<BR>
<BR>
I Think I've got copy of that stuff, assuming that the HD it's on <BR>
deigns to go. It's fuor seperate programs, one for each sector (at <BR>
least that's how I got it, I don't know what it looks like installed, <BR>
as I've never gotten round to it). E-mail me if want a copy and I'll <BR>
mail them to you, if they're not too large.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
An pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 07:59:07 -0400<BR>
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net><BR>
Subject: RE: Running A Sci-Fi Campaign<BR>
<BR>
>Barcode fonts are easily available. And if you don't mind spending a<BR>
>few bucks, you can pick up bar code readers fairly cheap. This means<BR>
>that if you have a computer handy, you can boggle the players by<BR>
>"scanning in" info from handouts you gavce them about equipment or<BR>
>whatever.<BR>
><BR>
>I have a bar code wand for my old 8-bit "notebook" computer and at one<BR>
>time was considering using bardcodes to save "secret" info about magic<BR>
>items on the cards I gave players when they got one.<BR>
<BR>
Interesting idea! I hadn't thought of making the barcode functional.<BR>
<BR>
>The Andre Norton "Solar Queen" novels are good here. They are about the<BR>
>crew of a free trader, and it usually takes contributions by several of<BR>
>the crew to work things out. For example, at least *twice* their<BR>
>medic's hobby of studying native "magic" has helped them out of a spot.<BR>
<BR>
Good stuff. I'll have to check out some Solar Queen novels. They sound<BR>
pretty nifty.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 07:00:22 -0500 (CDT)<BR>
From: Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com><BR>
Subject: GT economics (was Re: An alternate TL definition) <BR>
<BR>
Standard GURPS does not support the possibility of campaigns existing at<BR>
more than one TL at the same time; campaigns are explicitly set at one<BR>
TL, and all others referred to it. There are rules for "inflation" in<BR>
both the Basic Set and Vehicles for converting prices found in one<BR>
worldbook (at a specific TL) to those in another (at a different TL).<BR>
Essentially, one multiplies by the ratio of Starting Wealths. There are<BR>
also rules for reducing cost of items produced at higher TL, which if<BR>
applied naively prevent trade among TLs (there is no comparative<BR>
advantage, and thus no basis for trade).<BR>
<BR>
Since Traveller explicitly assumes that multiple TLs co-exist, it was<BR>
necessary to come up with a new method for reflecting the relative wealth<BR>
and productivity of TLs in GURPS. The table on p. T:FT48 is based on the<BR>
real-world observation that per-capita GDP is highly quantized. The<BR>
break-points on the table correspond to our best guess of how those<BR>
per-capita GDP's lay out against "TL" in the real world, extrapolated to<BR>
higher TL's, and normalized to give the Starting Wealth called for by GT.<BR>
<BR>
There are some additional economic factors involved, but Jim MacLean is<BR>
the economist in our crew and the only one qualified to comment further.<BR>
The sidebar on p. T:FT48 explains a lot of the rationale in detail,<BR>
though, as I recall.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 14:03:01 +0200<BR>
From: Jens Rydholm <jenry023@student.liu.se><BR>
Subject: Re: Just what is TL?<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
> Excuse me? I seem to have missed the post where you show that<BR>
> metalworking is needed to use gunpowder? It'll make nice *bombs* in<BR>
> clay pots.<BR>
<BR>
Obviously you haven't studied Sid Meier well enough.<BR>
<BR>
Although metalworking is not required to use gunpowder, only to research it. If<BR>
you get gunpowder from someone else, you don't need to know how to work metal.<BR>
<BR>
Yes, I am mentally ill. So sue me !   :-)<BR>
<BR>
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<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2298<BR>
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Traveller-digest     Wednesday, April 12 2000     Volume 1999 : Number 2299<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Far Frontiers Sector Data?<BR>
RE: Running A Sci-Fi Campaign<BR>
Re: 101 Anal Retentive Rules<BR>
Re: That pesky TL definition again<BR>
Re: 101 Anal Retentive Rules <BR>
Re: Vaya Con Dios class ship<BR>
Re: Traveller Skills Compendium?<BR>
RE: Peter Newman's view of Traveller<BR>
Re: Running A Sci-Fi Campaign<BR>
FFS1 Fuel Cells<BR>
Re: Boardgames (was Re:Basic Economics)<BR>
Re: Peter's view of Traveller<BR>
Re: Boardgames (was Re:Basic Economics) <BR>
Re: 101 Anal Retentive Rules<BR>
Re: 101 Anal Retentive Rules<BR>
Re: 101 Anal Retentive Rules<BR>
Re: An alternate TL definition (heresy warning)<BR>
Re: Just what is TL?<BR>
Re: Vancian Fantasy<BR>
Vs: Traveller Skills Compendium?<BR>
Re: Landgrab: Fornice<BR>
Re: Boardgames (was Re:Basic Economics) <BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 08:11:59 -0400<BR>
From: "Sword-Worlder" <swordworlder@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Far Frontiers Sector Data?<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: <GypsyComet@aol.com><BR>
>  I would be VERY interested in seeing Dale's whole sector. I actually<BR>
watched<BR>
> Swordy walk away with the manuscript in an EBay auction (it got too rich<BR>
for<BR>
> my budget), but didn't connect him with "our" Sword-Worlder until this<BR>
week.<BR>
<BR>
You didn't watch the auction quite long enough.  I did *not* win, but<BR>
managed to "cut a deal" with the winner to get a look at it.  I hate it when<BR>
I meet up with Traveller collectors who have more money than I ;-)<BR>
<BR>
- -Maine Yankee<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 12:35:08 GMT<BR>
From: "will richards" <willrichards@hotmail.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Running A Sci-Fi Campaign<BR>
<BR>
When I first saw this thread I was listening to the radio talk about the <BR>
presidential Campain here in the US.<BR>
<BR>
  Now if George Jr. where to advocate the a penquin control law as a platfom <BR>
of his campaign I'd vote for him simply because he was running a Sci-Fi <BR>
Campaign.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Will.<BR>
<BR>
But to keep it on trav what would Sci-Fi be in the traveller universe?<BR>
<BR>
______________________________________________________<BR>
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 04:39:47 -0800<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: 101 Anal Retentive Rules<BR>
<BR>
Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com> wrote<BR>
<BR>
> Peter Newman wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> > "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
> > > Fear not, I'm currently writing _101 Anal Retentive Rules_ for BITS.<BR>
<BR>
> > Can you make it 1,001 Anal Retentive Rules? I don't think<BR>
> > 101 is enough. :)<BR>
<BR>
> No, no, no.<BR>
> The rules that aren't in the 101 Anally Retentive Rules<BR>
> go in the Anally Retentive Appendix, which comes after<BR>
> the Anally Retentive Annotations of the 101 Anally<BR>
> Retentive Rules, and before the Anally Retentive<BR>
> Bibliography and the Anally Retentive Index, which is<BR>
> followed by the Anally Retentive "About the Anally<BR>
> Retentive Author."<BR>
<BR>
If 101 Anal Retentive Rules is going to be published<BR>
by BITS, which is British, perhaps we need to change<BR>
the title to 101 Anal-Retentive rules as it is my understanding<BR>
that British custom is (or at least was) to hyphenate<BR>
compound words more frequently than Americans do. On the<BR>
other hand the putative author, Doug, is American so perhaps<BR>
the title should correspond to American usage. Perhaps we<BR>
could have one volume 101 Anal Retentive Rules that follows<BR>
U.S usage and a second (otherwise identical) volume 101 <BR>
Anal-Retentive Rules that follows British usage. If comic book<BR>
fans will buy the same comic twice with a different cover than<BR>
logically so will Traveller fans.<BR>
<BR>
> Hmm.  That is getting a little cluttered and untidy.<BR>
> Oh well, we'll throw that away in our clean and neat<BR>
> trash, and start over.<BR>
> Five hours later . . .<BR>
> We begin writing the Unabridged Annotated and Appendicied<BR>
> Anthology of 101 Anally Retentive Rules, Complete with some<BR>
> high-quality acid free paper.  First, we take our sealed ream<BR>
> of paper and using a clean letter opener, don't you love a good<BR>
> letter opener?,<BR>
<BR>
Not biblically. <BR>
<BR>
> carefully separate the glued folds of the paper<BR>
> container, being careful not to rip the paper.  Easy does it.<BR>
> There.  Now we adjust the stack of paper neatly, making<BR>
> all the sides flush and <BR>
<BR>
You forgot to stack the paper so that the watermark was<BR>
right side up.<BR>
<BR>
> . . . oh my . . . this sheet has a folder<BR>
> corner . . . oh, well, we'll dispose of that one.<BR>
<BR>
No, no you have the wrong department. You want the Department<BR>
of Obsessive Compulsive Rules. You need to go out this door,<BR>
turn 94 degrees clockwise, and proceed down the corridor, tracing<BR>
the wood grain along the floor for 1,807 striations, look<BR>
up and its the first door on your right as you face SSW.<BR>
Open the door, realize that you got germs on your hands, return<BR>
to the washroom, wash your hands 11 times with a new bar of<BR>
soap, dry your hands 11 times, proceed back to the door<BR>
and knock on it 6 times using a gloved hand. They will open the<BR>
door and help you.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 00:41:38 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: That pesky TL definition again<BR>
<BR>
On 10 Apr 00, at 0:33, Hans Rancke-Madsen wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> I've been considering the "TL is locally sustainable technology" for a<BR>
> couple of days and the more I think of it, the less useful I find it. For<BR>
> instance, I've been wondering what the locally sustainable technology of<BR>
> Denmark is and I don't think it is much more than 3. Oh, we might manage<BR>
> something more in selected areas, but across the board we'd be hard<BR>
> pressed to hold on to more than level 3 if we were suddenly cut off from<BR>
> trading with the rest of the world. You see, Denmark has very little in<BR>
> the way of mineral resources. Cut off our imports and we'd be in big<BR>
> trouble. We used to have a little iron in a form the English name of which<BR>
> I don't know (it is found in bogs).<BR>
<BR>
That's "bog iron" :)<BR>
<BR>
 No coal though, so no steel.<BR>
<BR>
With charcoal you can make steel. Do you have any decent forests?<BR>
<BR>
 Without<BR>
> steel we can't get at our oil in the North Sea, so no combustion engines.<BR>
> Steam engines, maybe, but what to fuel them with? Wood and peat... We<BR>
> don't build cars in Denmark; everything we drive in is imported. I believe<BR>
> the most advanced vehicle locally built is the bicycle. As for ships, we<BR>
> do built those, although we've been closing down shipyards the last couple<BR>
> of decades. But without steel we'd be back to wooden ships, and we would<BR>
> have a problem there too. You see, our forests have dwindled to almost<BR>
> nothing. We have plenty of Christmas trees, but there's a dearth of ship<BR>
> timbers and masts. We could plant some oaks, of course, but it takes 150<BR>
> years for an oak to grow into suitable ship timber.<BR>
<BR>
At least coppices for charcoal grow reasonably quickly.<BR>
 <BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
An pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 04:44:01 -0800<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: 101 Anal Retentive Rules <BR>
<BR>
Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@worldnet.att.net> wrote<BR>
<BR>
> Steve Daniels wrote:<BR>
> > The rules that aren't in the 101 Anally Retentive Rules<BR>
> > go in the Anally Retentive Appendix, which comes after<BR>
> > the Anally Retentive Annotations of the 101 Anally<BR>
> > Retentive Rules, <BR>
> > Five hours later . . .<BR>
> > We begin writing the Unabridged Annotated and Appendicied<BR>
> > Anthology of 101 Anally Retentive Rules,<BR>
<BR>
>  Was that going to be the expigated Edition? The one with out<BR>
> the Gannet?<BR>
<BR>
I though that the expigated Edition is the one without boar<BR>
in it. I think that boardom will set in soon though if<BR>
we keep discussing this subject.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 01:21:09 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Vaya Con Dios class ship<BR>
<BR>
On 10 Apr 00, at 21:17, Nick Bradbeer wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Anyway, having discovered all that, and downloading the Akins spreadsheet,<BR>
> I seem to be falling in love with FFS2. Hmm....wonder where I can get a<BR>
> copy.<BR>
> <BR>
> Nick<BR>
> +++<BR>
> I sense some TNE heresy coming on. Eris - can I borrow your hat?<BR>
<BR>
Looks more like treason to me... The old guard in the TNe list won't <BR>
like this, you know :)<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
An pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 08:29:10 -0600 (CST)<BR>
From: "Jason Kemp" <Jason.Kemp@tdh.state.tx.us><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller Skills Compendium?<BR>
<BR>
From: Jeff Zeitlin [mailto:jzeitlin@cyburban.com]<BR>
<BR>
> I have an idea kicking around in the back of my skull. In the<BR>
> past, when this has happened, it has often been because someone<BR>
> else did it, I saw it, and then forgot about it.<BR>
> <BR>
> Does anyone know of a (web- or ftp-accessible) compilation of all<BR>
> skills described in Traveller or any 'canonical' supplement for<BR>
> Traveller? If not, would this be a Good Thing to develop?<BR>
<BR>
While GT has a list to start from, there are no true lists of skills <BR>
and descriptions such as you are suggesting. Me, I'd love to see <BR>
that, if you've got the time and energy to devote to something like <BR>
that. So, yes, it would be a Good Thing to develop.<BR>
<BR>
Thanks,<BR>
Jason<BR>
<BR>
=============================<BR>
Jason Kemp, ADS Programmer IV<BR>
(512)458-7111 ext. 1+3375<BR>
Internet Address:  jason.kemp@tdh.state.tx.us<BR>
<BR>
Most computer virus and email alerts are hoaxes.  For more info, check out:<BR>
http://urbanlegends.miningco.com/culture/beliefs/urbanlegends/library/blhoax.htm<BR>
==============================<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 01:44:20 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: Peter Newman's view of Traveller<BR>
<BR>
On 12 Apr 00, at 5:22, Antony Farrell wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Its also a great use for those CT Scoutships built at TL9 which suddenly<BR>
> fall apart in the TNE universe where a minimum TL11 is required to make<BR>
> Jump-2. (Best to get these anachronistic ships out of the way). Antony<BR>
<BR>
Howinthehell 'id they last that long? HG killed them pretty dead, I <BR>
thought (along with TL12 J6 ships and reaction drives).<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
An pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 08:55:15 -0600 (CST)<BR>
From: "Jason Kemp" <Jason.Kemp@tdh.state.tx.us><BR>
Subject: Re: Running A Sci-Fi Campaign<BR>
<BR>
Thanks, Everyone,<BR>
<BR>
I've gotten some great advice on handout creation, introductory <BR>
adventure ideas, GMing techniques to introduce players to the game, <BR>
and some great leads on some GMing articles. I'd like to thank <BR>
everyone who's given input so far, and the TML in general, for being <BR>
so giving of your skills and experiences.<BR>
<BR>
Thank you,<BR>
Jason<BR>
<BR>
=============================<BR>
Jason Kemp, ADS Programmer IV<BR>
(512)458-7111 ext. 1+3375<BR>
Internet Address:  jason.kemp@tdh.state.tx.us<BR>
<BR>
Most computer virus and email alerts are hoaxes.  For more info, check out:<BR>
http://urbanlegends.miningco.com/culture/beliefs/urbanlegends/library/blhoax.htm<BR>
==============================<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 10:53:02 -0700<BR>
From: "Antony Farrell" <Skaran@bigpond.com><BR>
Subject: FFS1 Fuel Cells<BR>
<BR>
Fuel Cells in FFS1<BR>
Would the paragraph at the start of the page in FFS1 which states "All power<BR>
plants from tech level 7 and higher may be designed to burn LHyd instead of<BR>
hydrocarbon distillates at no energy penalty" apply to fuel cells? If so<BR>
then the fuel consumption figures on the fuel cells table should be<BR>
tonnes/hour rather than kl/hour.<BR>
The description of fuel cells in FFS1 says that they are open systems. This<BR>
implies to me that they are drawing their oxygen from around them (ie life<BR>
support) not really acceptable in a sealed environment. But then this makes<BR>
them air breathing so again by perhaps again that section allowing modified<BR>
fuel tankage can be utilised effectively doubling fuel consumption.<BR>
<BR>
So for example a 1kl TL 7 Fuel Cell produces 0.5Mw and consumes<BR>
0.3*0.5=0.15kl HGHydro Distillate per hour which is equivelant to 0.15<BR>
tonnes of HGHydro Distillate per hours.<BR>
<BR>
Assuming when LHyd is used the mass used is the same (so that the LHyd vol<BR>
is the only penalty) the volume consumed in the same fuel cell would be<BR>
0.15/0.007=2.143 kl per hour in an open system and double this if oxygen is<BR>
carried in half the tanks.<BR>
<BR>
I don't believe the figures are anywhere near accurate (does anyone have any<BR>
details of present day fuel cells - open and closed cycle?)But in the<BR>
context of the game they can be made to work.<BR>
<BR>
Antony<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 09:59:57 -0500<BR>
From: Bill Dunn <bdunn@epicsystems.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Boardgames (was Re:Basic Economics)<BR>
<BR>
Then I guess Advanced Squad Leader, which has a random role rule, is a<BR>
victim of extremely poor design, huh? Baloney. The random roll rule is there<BR>
to prevent lengthy arguments over very subtle interpretations in the text,<BR>
what I might also call obsessive exegesis. Kind of what we're doing here.<BR>
It's a way to break the deadlock and get on with the game because that's the<BR>
whole point of the rules. To play a GAME. The rule enables gamers with<BR>
different approaches to the rules (relaxed and flexible vs adhering narrow<BR>
interpretations even in the face of evidence (I can think of a couple of<BR>
this type on the ASL mailing list) because that's what the TEXT says<BR>
(without even referring to the subtext... now I'm starting to sound like a<BR>
semiotician))  because it allows them to resolve the conflict and shut up<BR>
and play. A halmark of extremely poor design? No. Excellent game design?<BR>
Yes. Because it serves its purpose in facilitating play. And the plays the<BR>
thing...<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
>Subject: Re: Boardgames (was Re:Basic Economics) <BR>
><BR>
><BR>
>> Hell, I've even seen<BR>
>> the opposite-- wargames that include suggestions like "roll a die to<BR>
solve<BR>
>> the current dispute and come up with your own rules after the game to<BR>
>> handle future similar situations".<BR>
><BR>
>This is _extremely_ poor board game design. Any board game that<BR>
>includes this rule has a strong potential to degenerate into<BR>
>nothing more than an endless series of arguments.<BR>
><BR>
>If any dispute over the rules can be settled by a random roll<BR>
>then it is in the best interests of each player to deliberately<BR>
>misunderstand each and every rule, reinterpret in a manner that<BR>
>is advantageous to himself and then vehemently argue said point<BR>
>hoping to provoke a random die roll in the hopes that the random <BR>
>roll will be in his favor.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 08:48:54<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Peter's view of Traveller<BR>
<BR>
At 12:24 AM 4/12/2000 +0100, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>>Fear not, I'm currently writing _101 Anal Retentive Rules_ for BITS.<BR>
><BR>
>Doug! That was a BLACK PROJECT!<BR>
<BR>
Ah. Explains why I couldn't see what I was writing, what with the black<BR>
characters on the black screen, and the hood over my head.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas Berry      gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
   http://gridlore.home.mondspring.com<BR>
<BR>
"A mrgs einu sinni hluti minn systir..."<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 16:54:20 +0100<BR>
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Boardgames (was Re:Basic Economics) <BR>
<BR>
Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net> wrote:<BR>
>"James W. Lindsay" <jlindsay@home.com> wrote<BR>
<BR>
>> Hell, I've even seen<BR>
>> the opposite-- wargames that include suggestions like "roll a die to solve<BR>
>> the current dispute and come up with your own rules after the game to<BR>
>> handle future similar situations".<BR>
><BR>
>This is _extremely_ poor board game design. Any board game that<BR>
>includes this rule has a strong potential to degenerate into<BR>
>nothing more than an endless series of arguments.<BR>
<BR>
Nope, it's extremely poor playing.<BR>
<BR>
An example:<BR>
<BR>
Watching a game of Warhammer 40K, a dispute arose over one tank being able<BR>
to fire past another and hit an alien, ie "was line of sight blocked?"<BR>
<BR>
[IMO it clearly was blocked, but the alien player* wanted to continue the<BR>
game, so...]<BR>
<BR>
As per the rules, they rolled a die to decide.<BR>
<BR>
The marine player lost and couldn't fire his tank, so started arguing about<BR>
the random die roll.<BR>
<BR>
As I said, that's not a bad game design, that's a bad player.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
*You know what I mean and it's not that one of the players was a cute furry<BR>
 creature from alpha centauri. <BR>
Phil Kitching<BR>
- --<BR>
  http://www.btinternet.com/~salvo/<BR>
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.<BR>
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 12:10:03 -0400<BR>
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: 101 Anal Retentive Rules<BR>
<BR>
Peter Newman wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> If 101 Anal Retentive Rules is going to be published<BR>
> by BITS, which is British, perhaps we need to change<BR>
> the title to 101 Anal-Retentive rules as it is my understanding<BR>
> that British custom is (or at least was) to hyphenate<BR>
> compound words more frequently than Americans do.<BR>
<BR>
When it is being used as a compound word, you are quite<BR>
correct.  But, "retentive" is an adjective when describing a rule,<BR>
and "anally" is an adverb, modifiy the adjective, which modifies<BR>
the noun.  An "anally retentive" person can be, and often is,<BR>
called an "anal-retentive," which takes the place of the noun.<BR>
In the instant case, we have the noun present, so the anally<BR>
retentive and un-hyphenated usage of adverb and adjective<BR>
is appropriate.<BR>
<BR>
bloo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 11:17:55 -0500<BR>
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com><BR>
Subject: Re: 101 Anal Retentive Rules<BR>
<BR>
Steve Daniels posted:<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
>Evyn MacDude wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>> > We begin writing the Unabridged Annotated and Appendicied<BR>
>> > Anthology of 101 Anally Retentive Rules,<BR>
>><BR>
>>  Was that going to be the expigated Edition? The one with out<BR>
>> the Gannet?<BR>
><BR>
>Whew!  That reference almost slipped by.<BR>
><BR>
>Isn't it awfully nice to have an appendix . . .<BR>
><BR>
>bloo<BR>
<BR>
Arrgh!<BR>
<BR>
I can't believe you had the "guts" to post such a pun.<BR>
<BR>
Please, have a "heart", Bloo.<BR>
<BR>
Us Old Geezers don't have the "stomach" for it.<BR>
<BR>
:P<BR>
<BR>
David<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 09:19:47<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: 101 Anal Retentive Rules<BR>
<BR>
Peter Newman wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> If 101 Anal Retentive Rules is going to be published<BR>
> by BITS, which is British, perhaps we need to change<BR>
> the title to 101 Anal-Retentive rules as it is my understanding<BR>
> that British custom is (or at least was) to hyphenate<BR>
> compound words more frequently than Americans do.<BR>
<BR>
just to stir the pot...  I'm half-English, and was taught to spell by my<BR>
father.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 09:28:30 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
Subject: Re: An alternate TL definition (heresy warning)<BR>
<BR>
Peter Newman writes:<BR>
<BR>
> How likely does it seem to you that income will approximately<BR>
> double each TL between TL 3 and TL 7 and then remain at a<BR>
> flat number from then on? As technology has progressed<BR>
> to date it has made people wealthier, why will this stop?<BR>
<BR>
Not very.  However, <BR>
(a) the TL 7 person gets $1,000 CrImp, which is a hell of a lot more than<BR>
 $1,000 in TL7 dollars.  <BR>
(b) the whole point of my suggestion was to discard the standard TL structure, and make use of a realistic TL structure -- in which case low tech areas are low tech because they're poor, not poor because they're low tech (and, <BR>
incidentally, a low tech world can have anything it can afford.  It just <BR>
can't afford much)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 10:02:20 -0700<BR>
From: "Kelly St.Clair" <kellys@efn.org><BR>
Subject: Re: Just what is TL?<BR>
<BR>
>Wed, 12 Apr 2000 14:03:01 +0200<BR>
>From: Jens Rydholm <jenry023@student.liu.se><BR>
>Subject: Re: Just what is TL?<BR>
><BR>
>Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
> > Excuse me? I seem to have missed the post where you show that<BR>
> > metalworking is needed to use gunpowder? It'll make nice *bombs* in<BR>
> > clay pots.<BR>
><BR>
>Obviously you haven't studied Sid Meier well enough.<BR>
><BR>
>Although metalworking is not required to use gunpowder, only to research <BR>
>it. If<BR>
>you get gunpowder from someone else, you don't need to know how to work metal.<BR>
<BR>
Having Gunpowder does allow you to start working on Metallurgy (if you have <BR>
University), however, as well as Explosives.  On the other hand, it makes <BR>
all your existing barracks obsolete.<BR>
<BR>
>Yes, I am mentally ill. So sue me !   :-)<BR>
<BR>
Good thing I researched Code of Laws a while back, eh?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- --------------<BR>
Kelly St.Clair    "You know, Brink, you've been acting funny ever since<BR>
kellys@efn.org     you came back from the dead.  (I can't believe I just<BR>
                    said that.)"    -- Commander Boston Low, THE DIG<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 10:25:32 -0700<BR>
From: "Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Vancian Fantasy<BR>
<BR>
Vancian Fantasy? I am not grokking the reference, could you clarify? I got<BR>
the others.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 20:28:23 +0300<BR>
From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Jussi_Kenkkil=E4?= <Jussi.Kenkkila@helsinki.fi><BR>
Subject: Vs: Traveller Skills Compendium?<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message ----- <BR>
From: Jason Postma <JasonP@i-link.net><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2000 11:57 PM<BR>
Subject: RE: Traveller Skills Compendium?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> Doesn't GURPS: Traveller have a big list of skills from prior editions of<BR>
> Traveller in the conversion rules?  IIRC they list the game source too (CT,<BR>
> MT, TNE, T4).<BR>
><BR>
Yes it has. From page 125 to 129 it lists skills from CT, MT, TNE and T4.<BR>
 <BR>
- -J2K<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 13:33:35 -0400<BR>
From: Glenn Grant <neo@total.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Landgrab: Fornice<BR>
<BR>
Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk> said,<BR>
<BR>
>FYI I'm currently working on a writeup of Fornice that I plan to submit to<BR>
>JTAS Online.<BR>
<BR>
Hmmm. Now I want to pick another world; I'm trying not to duplicate the<BR>
efforts of others too much.  It's not easy to avoid, as the Marches have<BR>
been so heavy "colonized" by Trav writers over the years.<BR>
<BR>
So, if anyone's still keeping track of who's doing what, I'm *not* doing<BR>
Fornice for the Landgrab.<BR>
<BR>
Maybe I'll do AKI/Glisten (SM 2035, B443987-9 Hi In Po  Amber 214As G6v<BR>
M2D) [MT data]<BR>
<BR>
 -- except that, if I do, I'll probably ignore tht "As" allegiance code; it<BR>
doesn't make any sense to me that Aslan Ihatei could somehow sneak onto a<BR>
world with a population of over a billion, in sufficient numbers to<BR>
effectively take it over, especially when it's *one parsec* from a<BR>
subsector capital (Glisten) with a Naval base and Scout base(!).   Just how<BR>
many million Ihatei are supposed to have moved in there?<BR>
<BR>
Anybody got any data on Aki I should know about?<BR>
<BR>
Thanks,<BR>
<BR>
 + GMG +<BR>
<BR>
               Glenn Grant  <neo@total.net><BR>
_Northern Suns: The New Anthology of Canadian Science Fiction_<BR>
          Edited by David Hartwell & Glenn Grant<BR>
  ++Now in trade paperback from Tor Books++<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 10:44:16 -0700<BR>
From: "James W. Lindsay" <jlindsay@home.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Boardgames (was Re:Basic Economics) <BR>
<BR>
On Tue, 11 Apr 2000 21:21:59 -0800, Peter Newman wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> "James W. Lindsay" <jlindsay@home.com> wrote<BR>
> <BR>
> > Never seen one (a draconian RPG rule set, that is). <BR>
>  <BR>
> SPI's Dragonquest is a prime example.<BR>
<BR>
You can reread Walter's posts for my opinion on that statement.  I've<BR>
played Dragonquest...<BR>
<BR>
> > Hell, I've even seen<BR>
> > the opposite-- wargames that include suggestions like "roll a die to solve<BR>
> > the current dispute and come up with your own rules after the game to<BR>
> > handle future similar situations".<BR>
> <BR>
> This is _extremely_ poor board game design.<BR>
<BR>
Who said anything about *board* games?  The original wargames didn't use<BR>
boards.  Tabletop games, by their very nature, leave more room for<BR>
situation interpretation.  I thank Bill ever so much for his points on<BR>
ASL-- a game that most wargamers consider to be one of the best on the<BR>
market.<BR>
<BR>
> Any board game that<BR>
> includes this rule has a strong potential to degenerate into<BR>
> nothing more than an endless series of arguments.<BR>
<BR>
*Strong* potential, huh?  Please...<BR>
<BR>
People play games to have fun-- to have a good time.  I would humbly<BR>
suggest that at least 99% of all gamers have this in mind when they crack<BR>
open their D&D books, dig out their old copy of Sorry, or clear off the<BR>
dining room table for a game of Warhammer Fantasy Battle.  That is the<BR>
definition of "play".<BR>
<BR>
True, some people's definition of "fun" is to win, win, WIN.  That <1% is<BR>
usually a very sad case indeed.  The type of gamers you describe above<BR>
would be pretty lonely, since no one could stand playing with them for long<BR>
(unless they met up with others of their kind, and even then it is highly<BR>
unlikely that they would be willing to put up with each *other's* ramblings<BR>
for long).<BR>
<BR>
> If any dispute over the rules can be settled by a random roll<BR>
> then it is in the best interests of each player to deliberately<BR>
> misunderstand each and every rule, reinterpret in a manner that<BR>
> is advantageous to himself and then vehemently argue said point<BR>
> hoping to provoke a random die roll in the hopes that the random <BR>
> roll will be in his favor.<BR>
<BR>
Again, you seem to think that many people play games for the *sole* purpose<BR>
of winning-- WHATEVER THE COST.  By that, I mean that you seem to think<BR>
that such a person would be willing to risk his personal relationship with<BR>
his opponent (friend or stranger) just to win the game.  You don't keep<BR>
friends long with the "deliberately misinterpreting" tactic you suggest.<BR>
Strangers may react even worse.  In tournament play, such a player would<BR>
soon be ejected based on the fact that he is nothing more than a<BR>
troublemaker-- not interested one bit in what the spirit of wargaming is<BR>
all about.<BR>
<BR>
> In any game where this rule exists game theory gives a positive<BR>
> rules benefit to being a munchkin weasel. I do not care to <BR>
> play games of that sort. The arguments come to overwhelm<BR>
> the play. I want to know that anytime I get into a rules<BR>
> discussion it is only because the rules are sufficiently <BR>
> ambiguous that the other player is legitimately capable of <BR>
> misinterpretation.<BR>
<BR>
You seem to have come to the conclusion that this "roll a die to solve the<BR>
problem" rule would be used frequently.  Since you have never obviously<BR>
used such a rule (and I have), you'll have to take my word for it that it<BR>
a) doesn't happen that frequently, b) speeds up play, and c) doesn't<BR>
detract from the enjoyment of the game.<BR>
<BR>
In some cases this "rule" is referred to as the "fog of war".  Perhaps the<BR>
sun shining off of polished metal on the battlefield distracts a squad long<BR>
enough that they hesitate for a moment.  Perhaps drifting smoke on the<BR>
battlefield obscures the target just enough to break the line-of-sight for<BR>
a few critical seconds.  Etc.<BR>
<BR>
> In any board game system where the rules give a positive game<BR>
> benefit (a 50% chance of the random roll establishing that<BR>
> you are right) to deliberate misinterpretation of the rules than<BR>
> that is what munchkins will do. Moreover said rule makes it far <BR>
> more likely that a rules dispute will degenerate into a personal <BR>
> argument, not a discussion.<BR>
<BR>
I've got news for you: munchkins are a lot craftier than game designers.<BR>
Where there is a will, there is a way.  As a published "game designer" now,<BR>
I wouldn't waste my time attempting to foil their attempts by crafting<BR>
draconian rules (that might put off non-munchkins).<BR>
<BR>
> Case in point: A game that has the 'roll a die over a disputed<BR>
> rule' rule.<BR>
> <BR>
> The rules state "Benefits of terrain cover are lost when<BR>
> two forces occupy the same hex."<BR>
> <BR>
> A situation arises when _three_ forces occupy the same hex.<BR>
> <BR>
> My point of view is that if the designers had meant "Benefits<BR>
> of terrain cover are lost when two _or_more_ forces occupy the<BR>
> same hex." then that is what they would have written. Therefore<BR>
> terrain cover benefits apply.<BR>
> <BR>
> Your point of view is that since the rules do not say "Benefits<BR>
> of terrain cover are lost when two _and_only_two_ forces occupy<BR>
> the same hex." then any situation where three forces occupy the<BR>
> same hex is a subset of the situation where two forces occupy<BR>
> the hex. That if three forces are present it is also true that<BR>
> two forces are present. Therefore terrain cover benefits do<BR>
> not apply.<BR>
> <BR>
> The third player will attempt to refer back to his understanding<BR>
> of the historical and tactical situation that existed in the<BR>
> battle the rules are representing. He will then argue that<BR>
> based on the size of the hexes and the size of the units they<BR>
> represent that three or more forces can not occupy the same<BR>
> hex since they will not fit. Therefore we need to revert the<BR>
> game to the moment immediately before the third force entered <BR>
> the hex.<BR>
> <BR>
> All three points of view are arguably legitimate by the letter of the<BR>
> rules. But if the rules establish a game benefit for deliberate<BR>
> use of spurious argument then the games will include more<BR>
> spurious arguments, this is not a situation I care to play<BR>
> in. This rule is also likely to put a strain on friendships as<BR>
> the players now have to wonder if every rules debate is real or <BR>
> if their opponent is simply presenting a false argument to get<BR>
> the 50% random roll. YMMV<BR>
<BR>
Well put, except for one thing.  You did not bother to include any of the<BR>
other "rules" that might have been referred to in this argument.  What is<BR>
the definition of "forces"?  Where are the rules for moving forces, so that<BR>
we can find the rule that says whether or not a third force can move into a<BR>
hex already occupied by two (or more) other forces or not?<BR>
<BR>
In short, your example is far from accurate.  If *all* the rules in such a<BR>
game were as poorly written as the one you wrote, I would agree that this<BR>
ruleset would be a disaster waiting to happen.  This example, however, does<BR>
*not* necessarily support your argument because of its limited scope.  My<BR>
personal opinion?  Point #2 would be the correct point based on one simple<BR>
thing: "common sense".<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Doug and I spent well over a year bouncing copies of ACQ back and forth<BR>
over the internet.  I think we hit revision #11 before it was finally<BR>
"officially" submitted to BITS, and even then further revisions were<BR>
needed.  We were frequently finding "errors" that we had previously<BR>
overlooked.  We even found a few minor errors after the first 50 copies<BR>
were printed, but ACQ is perfectly playable as it is.<BR>
<BR>
After staring at 48 pages for *that* length of time, your eyes tend to<BR>
glaze over and you miss little rule misconceptions that we felt were<BR>
painfully clear initially (ie: didn't need better wording).  These would be<BR>
examples of a writer making an honest mistake-- an excuse I offered to the<BR>
previous thread on more than one occasion.  We had only 48 pages at our<BR>
disposal, and I often asked Andy or Dom later if we could include another<BR>
example or two to clarify a few points.  The answer more often than not was<BR>
"we simply don't have the room for any additional text".<BR>
<BR>
Time is also of the essence.  From the moment a gaming company says "yes,<BR>
we would be interested in a manuscript for your idea", you have a finite<BR>
number of weeks/months to submit the final version.  Tough luck if you<BR>
found problems with the final version after that date.<BR>
<BR>
These are some of the realities of game design.  I suggest you design your<BR>
own complete ruleset and submit it here for discussion.  Then we'll see how<BR>
it is accepted.  Or you can order a copy (or two) of ACQ and tell me what<BR>
you think :)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
James W. Lindsay             Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada<BR>
Website: http://members.home.net/jlindsay          ICQ: #7521644<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
Hit any user to continue.<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2299<BR>
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